the pagan origins of hellfire threats

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi there,

I think that in the books of the prophets in the bible we can find incidences and origins of the hellfire theology we have suffered so much from. Originally they had to do with idolatry. Instead of living with the God of love, the Israelites invented or borrowed deities from their neighbors and threatened each other with them. "If you don't serve my idol he will punish you." This is why God always speaks about awful idolatry among the Israelites. Good pagan deities were few and far between, they all had deep flaws and probably always meant suppression and compulsion. And later on in the times of the pharisees, God himself was handled as if he were an idol. "If you dont serve my god he will punish you." This is also what we see in the prophetic books who always connect idolatry with ethical sins such as suppression of the needy. And when the Israelites went back to the law they also combined their law-idolatry with ethical sins. But the law was never meant to last forever, it was purely a jewish thing, except for the 10 commandments maybe that carry no threats with them in the original text. This is how Jesus cherry-picked from the law what he liked and what he didn't like, it just wasn't such an important codex for him. And Paul argued that even pagans often keep what the law demands.

What do you think?

Blessings,

Daniel

[Seth]

I don't think Jesus necessarily cherry picked, but rather, he synthesized the Old Covenant that he gave to the Israelites with the New Covenant he brought to the world. He was showing that righteousness, peace, and salvation from sin is found in a daily walk according to his voice, rather than the letter of Moses. We had discussed this in a previous post, but one thing Jesus established is that what proceeds from the heart defiles, not what you put into your mouth.

This was a major change because it causes everyone to search their hearts to see if they are following Christ. The Law did no such thing, you did whatever it said out of fear of displeasing God. In the New Covenant, Christ leads your walk and brings a light unto your heart so that you can know yourself and be healed from the things which had kept you in slavery. Major difference. So, he drew from the Law because the Law is righteous, but he knew that to break the bonds of sin required the inner change that the Law could not provide.

[sheila]

Moses and other's went up the mountain[volcanoe] to speak with God......and receive the

comandments of the law covenant.  there were a lot of volcano 'gods' worshipped at that time

and they would offer...sacrifices to it.

   Flesh and blood can not please God..law with it's commands/regulations./written on stoney

hearts.


.but He said of His son......

.....in him I am well pleased....in Him that come from above/born of the will of God

  the spiritual man...that has the love of God and love of man as his brother in him...He can.

...that man...being in very nature like God[love] is the only 'BEGOTTEN' son........and finding himself

in the manner of man/flesh....he humbles himself in obedience to God and love for his freinds......

  thaat He be put to death in the flesh...that they may know the heart and mind of their Father

and His Father..

   if ye have not the " love" of God in ye,nor the 'love' of your brother as yerself...ye are offspring

of vipers.    now they will know ye are of Christ coz of this distinctive nature of love/God in you

   the love is the perfect bond of union......not knowledge of good and evil.....he who loves is

born of God...now...man may not know where this love comes from..or where it is going..at

present...but Jesus told us...it comes from above[every perfect present does] and will

return unto the Father.

   now...the pews are full in babylon of those drinking poison[of vipers/condemnation unto men

dragon breath] but even though they may mouth it.....those that have love in them for God and

their fellow man...well...it won't enter their hearts[mystery of godliness and godlessness]

but will pass out into the sewer..

if your religious worship is to kill/ condemn/judge sinner men......then you have not discerned the

body of Christ..for He is your rest...and that Sabbath rest is to do good unto your fellow man...not

evil unto him...to heal...not kill....whenpeople use the name of Christ to kill/condemn man...what

a travesty...is it lawful to kill or heal on the sabbath?  He told the religious leaders that they

had not the " love" of God in them..or they would 'love' Him....the manifestation of the Father

in forgiveness and healing and the giving freely of eternal life unto man.

   if ye do any commands of the law..in obedience...to show your righteousness through

honouring God with your lips..but do not have love in yer heart..it is in vain...especially if

ye do it to boast in your flesh[I am glad I am not like so and so brother over here]

o bserve the working of the Pharisees and saadducees...they had all kinda of criteria as to

clean and unclean things in the flesh...your disciples didn't wash their hands..they rubbed

wheat/corn in the feild on the sabbth..etc etc.   do you not know the offspring of viper spirit?

with no love in it's heart it constantly finds fault..constantly nit-picks..keeps records of what

people do wrong..heaps up heavy loads impossible to be bore..it is void...empty...vain.......

   it judges the law unlawfully..it sits on His throne[love ruling] and says it is God..it is an

abomination!!!!!!!!!!the man of lawlessness is.  the law was written to restrain him due to him

not having any love in his heart. there is no law against the spirit[of love] no natural law against

it...did not Jesus show yu this..in the multiplying of the bread..in the walking on the water..

in the healing of the sick,raising of the dead.   GOOD THING GOD SENT HIS SON TO SHOW US

WHAT LOVE WAS,HUH?

  ....I will not always find fault..for then even the spirit[love] would fail.


   

    that man can please God

[Seth]

 :thumbsup: :iagree:

[rosered]

 :goodpost: :icon_flower:

[JulieTang84]

I find the fasicnation regarding the LAW very interesting. It seams that by studying and pondering over things that happened in the time of the LAW is beneficial; however, for the life of me I cannot see why?

Jesus made it well known that he was a game changer. Things were going to be much different going forward. One would expect them to be, after all, he is Fathers first born Son.

Jesus was and is still the embodiment of the Law as He FULFILLED them.
   
Mat 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Luke 22:44
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Paul fully understood the significance of the fulfillment.

Gal 5:14
For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."fn

Which brings to point, Jesus's own words when questioned regarding which Law was of most importance.

Mar 12:28
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

Mar 12:29
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.fn

Mar 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'fn

Mar 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

No mention of any of the previous requirements. As Seth so correctly pointed out, the new Commandments are about two things: Love and TRUST. Of course Jesus did not mention Trust as it was certainly a given. There a very few people whom love someone with all they are but without trust. Seems logical, but how many there are that say that the Love God and Jesus but have absolutely no trust.

Jesus made it so very easy to follow: Many wonder whom they will love when the are raised from the dead. Heck, they were giving thought to this in the time of Jesus. His answer was priceless and in my mind one of the MOST IMPORTANT tidbits of information that He gave.

Mar 12:19
"Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.


Mar 12:20
Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children.

Mar 12:21
The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third.

Mar 12:22
In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too.

Mar 12:23
At the resurrectionfn whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"

Mar 12:25
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

So few even comprehend the full significance of Jesus' answer. He did not imply that as angels will not love or even feel love, rather that when the dead rise, they WILL BE LOVE and in LOVE everyone will be as ONE with Father, just as Christ is one.

This brings to mind "free will" there will be no free will for no one will ever want to be so far from Father again.

Love and Trust or perhaps Trust and Love, either way: Nothing else matters. Nothing!!!!!  :girlheart:

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Moses and other's went up the mountain[volcanoe] to speak with God......and receive the

comandments of the law covenant.  there were a lot of volcano 'gods' worshipped at that time

You mean mount Sinai?
I know nothing about volcano gods; but that means nothing  :laughing7:
Nobody knows the location of the mountain for sure but there are good guesses.
The Jews came out of Egypt where Hator was worshipped. Hator is just another reincarnation of Nimrods wife (all pagan religions are)
She looked like.... a calf.
She had temples at shrines throughout the country and there was a shrine/temple at one of the candidates for mount Sinai.
:2c:


(http://www.egipat.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hator.jpg)

(http://www.astrozmaj.com/system/img/fotografije/razno/vakcina/hator.jpg)

[Lazarus Short]

Moses and other's went up the mountain[volcanoe] to speak with God......and receive the

comandments of the law covenant.  there were a lot of volcano 'gods' worshipped at that time

You mean mount Sinai?
I know nothing about volcano gods; but that means nothing  :laughing7:
Nobody knows the location of the mountain for sure but there are good guesses.
The Jews came out of Egypt were Hator was worshipped. Hator is just another reincarnation of Nimrods wife (all pagan religions are)
She looked like.... a calf.
She had temples at shrines throughout the country and there was a shrine/temple at one of the candidates for mount Sinai.
:2c:

IMHO, the best candidate for the Mountain of God is Jebel al Lawz in Saudi Arabia (within ancient Midian), as found by the authors of The Gold of Exodus.  The entire site is just as described in Exodus, and the mountain is NOT a volcano, yet the top is blackened, and by no known process.

[WhiteWings]

Be aware of that Ron Wyatt guy the snake oil peddler that found the ark, chariot wheels in the red sea etc.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/10/mount-sinai-is-not-jebel-al-lawz-in-saudi-arabia.aspx#.UqlqvtLuKCk

[Lazarus Short]

Be aware of that Ron Wyatt guy the snake oil peddler that found the ark, chariot wheels in the red sea etc.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/10/mount-sinai-is-not-jebel-al-lawz-in-saudi-arabia.aspx#.UqlqvtLuKCk

WhiteWings, I have had a bit of a struggle, both coming out of the Seventh-Day Adventist church, and Ron Wyatt.  I was introduced to Wyatt's "findings" thru some SDA friends, and watched the video.  I should have trusted my initial reaction, which was that it was just all too pat.  I was especially bothered by the Ark which would not photograph well, and was that ever so handy for putting one over.  Even so, it all fit neatly into SDA type/antitype theology, and I swallowed it all in time.

[anna274]

Be aware of that Ron Wyatt guy the snake oil peddler that found the ark, chariot wheels in the red sea etc.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/10/mount-sinai-is-not-jebel-al-lawz-in-saudi-arabia.aspx#.UqlqvtLuKCk

WhiteWings, I have had a bit of a struggle, both coming out of the Seventh-Day Adventist church, and Ron Wyatt.  I was introduced to Wyatt's "findings" thru some SDA friends, and watched the video.  I should have trusted my initial reaction, which was that it was just all too pat.  I was especially bothered by the Ark which would not photograph well, and was that ever so handy for putting one over.  Even so, it all fit neatly into SDA type/antitype theology, and I swallowed it all in time.

Lazarus, are we held responsible for "swallowing"  ... believing/living a false teaching?  Actually, my question should be  "At what point do we become responsible for "swallowing" a false teaching?"  I believe that the false teachers will be held responsible for teaching/preaching a lie...but what about those of us who "swallow" (believe/live a lie)???

[Lazarus Short]

Be aware of that Ron Wyatt guy the snake oil peddler that found the ark, chariot wheels in the red sea etc.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/10/mount-sinai-is-not-jebel-al-lawz-in-saudi-arabia.aspx#.UqlqvtLuKCk

WhiteWings, I have had a bit of a struggle, both coming out of the Seventh-Day Adventist church, and Ron Wyatt.  I was introduced to Wyatt's "findings" thru some SDA friends, and watched the video.  I should have trusted my initial reaction, which was that it was just all too pat.  I was especially bothered by the Ark which would not photograph well, and was that ever so handy for putting one over.  Even so, it all fit neatly into SDA type/antitype theology, and I swallowed it all in time.

Lazarus, are we held responsible for "swallowing"  ... believing/living a false teaching?  Actually, my question should be  "At what point do we become responsible for "swallowing" a false teaching?"  I believe that the false teachers will be held responsible for teaching/preaching a lie...but what about those of us who "swallow" (believe/live a lie)???

Yes, I also used to subscribe to ET and then ED, because I was taught that and knew of no alternative.  Now I insist that Hell is a 404.  You know, I can't judge Ron Wyatt, nor can I judge the SDA membership in general.  I know that there are many in that organization who love Jesus, and are honest and truthful.  Wyatt was debunked by two people in the SDA church.  In this life, we just can not point at the other person and say they are evil, and we are good.  It's been a long, hard lesson for me.

[WhiteWings]

"At what point do we become responsible for "swallowing" a false teaching?"  I believe that the false teachers will be held responsible for teaching/preaching a lie...but what about those of us who "swallow" (believe/live a lie)???

Luke 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

There is a huge difference between knowingly and unknowingly taking part of paganism.
So if someone doesn't know about Christ is involved in paganism he will receive just a few stripes.
Likewise if a Christian does pagan things (disguised as Christianity) he will receive just a few stripes.
But if that Christian becomes aware of doing pagan stuff (feasts, rituals, etc) he will receive more stripes.
It becomes even worse if that same Christian keeps teaching paganism to others.

I think unknowing teachers will receive few stripes.

[Seth]

Luke12:45
 But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk.

[Seth]

Be aware of that Ron Wyatt guy the snake oil peddler that found the ark, chariot wheels in the red sea etc.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/10/mount-sinai-is-not-jebel-al-lawz-in-saudi-arabia.aspx#.UqlqvtLuKCk

WhiteWings, I have had a bit of a struggle, both coming out of the Seventh-Day Adventist church, and Ron Wyatt.  I was introduced to Wyatt's "findings" thru some SDA friends, and watched the video.  I should have trusted my initial reaction, which was that it was just all too pat.  I was especially bothered by the Ark which would not photograph well, and was that ever so handy for putting one over.  Even so, it all fit neatly into SDA type/antitype theology, and I swallowed it all in time.

Lazarus, are we held responsible for "swallowing"  ... believing/living a false teaching?  Actually, my question should be  "At what point do we become responsible for "swallowing" a false teaching?"  I believe that the false teachers will be held responsible for teaching/preaching a lie...but what about those of us who "swallow" (believe/live a lie)???

Anna, I think we need to understand God's judgment from the perspective of deliverance. Those who swallow or believe a lie are in need of deliverance, obviously, and that is what God's chastening is for. God's level of severity is a response to what we need to receive in order to be delivered from that which harms us. He is a loving and productive Father.

I don't believe God bases his chastening on how "responsible" we are, because God himself has bound all unto disobedience to have mercy on all. We were sold into slavery from birth so that we could all be made into Joseph. I think it's less a matter of "responsibility" and more a matter of need.

The real reason that the second servant get "beat" with many "stripes" is explained by Peter. It's because those who "return to thier vomit" end up being worse and more hardened in thier heart against God than if they had never known. Therefore they need more stripes to soften back up and be broken, whereas the ignorant one is less hardened and needs less of a breaking down.

It's all in Love. Once we know that it's redemptive, unlike our human method which is not founded in Love but in finding out the level of responsibility and applying punishments to meet a blanket concept of social justice, we can get away from fear and know that God gives each person whatever they need to walk in rebirth. He determines this based on where the heart is.

[anna274]

Be aware of that Ron Wyatt guy the snake oil peddler that found the ark, chariot wheels in the red sea etc.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/10/mount-sinai-is-not-jebel-al-lawz-in-saudi-arabia.aspx#.UqlqvtLuKCk

WhiteWings, I have had a bit of a struggle, both coming out of the Seventh-Day Adventist church, and Ron Wyatt.  I was introduced to Wyatt's "findings" thru some SDA friends, and watched the video.  I should have trusted my initial reaction, which was that it was just all too pat.  I was especially bothered by the Ark which would not photograph well, and was that ever so handy for putting one over.  Even so, it all fit neatly into SDA type/antitype theology, and I swallowed it all in time.

Lazarus, are we held responsible for "swallowing"  ... believing/living a false teaching?  Actually, my question should be  "At what point do we become responsible for "swallowing" a false teaching?"  I believe that the false teachers will be held responsible for teaching/preaching a lie...but what about those of us who "swallow" (believe/live a lie)???

Yes, I also used to subscribe to ET and then ED, because I was taught that and knew of no alternative.  Now I insist that Hell is a 404.  You know, I can't judge Ron Wyatt, nor can I judge the SDA membership in general.  I know that there are many in that organization who love Jesus, and are honest and truthful.  Wyatt was debunked by two people in the SDA church.  In this life, we just can not point at the other person and say they are evil, and we are good.  It's been a long, hard lesson for me.

Thanks Lazarus:  I so appreciate the gentleness with which you answer my questions to you.

re:  ...hard lesson for me.
A lesson well-learned.  I sense in you a truly humbled spirit.

May His peace, joy, love, life, light continue to shine in your heart and through your heart to others.

[anna274]

"At what point do we become responsible for "swallowing" a false teaching?"  I believe that the false teachers will be held responsible for teaching/preaching a lie...but what about those of us who "swallow" (believe/live a lie)???

Luke 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

There is a huge difference between knowingly and unknowingly taking part of paganism.
So if someone doesn't know about Christ is involved in paganism he will receive just a few stripes.
Likewise if a Christian does pagan things (disguised as Christianity) he will receive just a few stripes.
But if that Christian becomes aware of doing pagan stuff (feasts, rituals, etc) he will receive more stripes.
It becomes even worse if that same Christian keeps teaching paganism to others.

I think unknowing teachers will receive few stripes.

Thanks Whitewings:  Your kind replies to me always comfort my mind and heart.
re:  ... unknowing teachers will receive few stripes.

and your kindness to extended to others truly edifies me.

May His peace, joy, life, light, continue to shine in your heart and through your heart to others.

[anna274]

Thanks Seth:

re: ...heart

I agree

1 Sam 16:7
...for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

May His peace joy, love, mercy, truth, light continue to shine in your heart and through your heart to others.

[Lazarus Short]

Thanks Lazarus:  I so appreciate the gentleness with which you answer my questions to you.

re:  ...hard lesson for me.
A lesson well-learned.  I sense in you a truly humbled spirit.

May His peace, joy, love, life, light continue to shine in your heart and through your heart to others.

No, thank you, Anna!  You are very kind.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: