Have any of you ever heard any of the eternal separationists to say...

[martincisneros]

Have any of you ever heard any of the eternal separationists to say that Adam and Eve would be eternally lost, whether by annihilation or eternal separation/torment?? 

Or, if they hold Eve blameless, have you ever heard any of them say that Adam would be eternally lost???

Have any of you??????  Name the minister even if you can't name the book, magazine publication, CD, or DVD.

It's always seemed to me, from my earliest weeks in UR, that to prove ET or eternal destruction for a single individual that you'd have to be able to first prove it for either Adam alone, or for Adam and Eve.  If we have through Adam, or through Adam and Eve the root to our sin, why wouldn't we have them as THE example of how it would be treated? 

No Hitler without what happened in the Garden of Eden.  No homosexuality, no theives, no murderers, no blasphemers, no disregard for parents, and anything else that 1Timothy chapter 1 calls contrary to sound doctrine.

I understand the predeterminism arguments, but I'm looking at a very simple argument here that others are free to add everything they wish to from their perspective:  If Adam, or Adam and Eve caused it, then why not nip this thing in the bud, right?  And if God did, why wouldn't that mean the Universal Restoration UNLESS you can prove that God's redemptive promise wasn't good for Eve and/or Adam??

Prove to me the eternal separation/torment or eternal annihilation of Adam and Eve from the Scriptures, conclusively, and I'll publicly retract every UR statement that I've ever made!  Just show me that they're eternally separated, obliterated, or in torments for as long as God exists and I'll acknowledge the Biblical force of such an argument :Sparkletooth:


BTW: According to Romans 8, All things work together for good to those:
1. who love God,
and,
2. to those who are the called according to His purposes :icon_king:

That Scripture from Romans 8 had been bugging me all this past week and I finally "heard it."

[SeekerSA]

No

The sins of Adam & Eve were punished by the kicking out of paradise aka the garden so it seems folk have no problem literalizing the original sin and condemning all creation because of it so that we must pay for Adam's mistake - many believe the fruit to be an apple - wonder where this came from?

Well it flies in the face of later texts that suggest we are not responsible for ancestrial sins aka sins of the father.

The bottom line is we had no choice in the OS so how can we be expected to "choose" for reconciliation?

Be interesting to see what others say.

B

[joyful1]

Martin--
No. I have not. Besides...ET is "alien" to me!
:laughing7:
Joyce :)

[martincisneros]

One thing that's been bothering me, additional to this over the last couple of days is the predeterminist argument from Romans 8 about the identity of the One Who cast it all into futility in the hope that....

I'm not buying either of the traditional arguments about God the Father or about Adam having done it.  Seems more like what Romans is talking about is Jesus after He was raised from the dead and ascended and left us to the care of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit in the hope that like snakes shedding off old skin that we'd put off all of this corruption and limitation through the promises of the Word, groans of our own spirit, and rebuking this filth from our lives until all of our previous weaknesses leave our lives through the power granted to us through the High Priestly ministry of Jesus at God's right hand via the Holy Spirit.  If I'm right, then that's one of the final Biblical death blows to the premillenialist ideas of an impending rapture and of a Revelation 19 second coming, when Scripture elsewhere doesn't have His return until at least the New Earth in Revelation 21 where the Tabernacle of God is seen finally with men.  Because it would be Jesus Himself that cast us into a degree of futility by receiving our commitments to follow Him where ever He goes, but leaving us to walk through the valley of the shadow in the hopes that we'd not only reflect His glory to all of Creation but bring others into this new life -- which is more the point of Romans, than to flash back to the purposes of the first Creation in Genesis and it's motives.  Jesus cast Israel into futility by not walking down all of their streets after His resurrection where all could see that He'd conquered death and was making us partners in that conquest, which happens to be what the next 3 chapters of Romans wind up being about.  Jesus cast us into futility because although we're not a part of this world, we've still got to walk out Romans chapters 12 to 16 where we're subject to the laws of foreign powers that aren't the Kingdom of God, whether we're talking about being subject to the government of the United States, England, South Africa, or some other nation and local city.

[joyful1]

I'm thinking; "render unto Ceasar" is now null and void, because Ceasar is dead.

Okay, I was just joking there.... been a long day for me! Cut me some slack!! LOL!

Your points are very good, Martin. I am also interested in this issue!! I'd like to see some of the other verses that led you to your conclusions.

Joyce :)