Inquiry on punishment after death.

[Gary Amirault]

Here's another email from an inquirer regarding punishment after death. I'm not sure what article he read that caused him to write what he did. It may not have been one of my articles, I don't know. But since there are differing views amoung those who believe in universal salvation regarding whether there is further correction or punishment on the other side of the grave, perhaps each could give their views CITING Scripture to support their view. I've sent the inquirer the link to here so he will probably be reading your responses. Be prayerful before you write. Some of us are obviously wrong in this regard. Here's the email:

Hi Gary,

Upfront let me tell you that I just came aware of the whole 'inclusion' or 'universalism' belief system via the tv show on Carlton Pearson a few days ago. Needless to say, I started 'googling' and came across your sight.
Clearly, you have studied the subject thoroughly and are convinced of it unashamedly.

Let me say, how wonderful this would be if true. I do not say that as a slight against you, but more so for my sake. I was raised with the totally opposite view.

I have a multitude of questions, but can I just start with this one?
You said " I believe that many people have terrible sufferings awaiting them after they leave this life-how long and how severe I leave up to a loving and just God."

You have incredibly documented with scriptures and historic figures statements the belief in not an everlasting punishment in hell.
I was just looking for some statements/scriptures from you to support the above statement. My confusion is that you are so dogmatically clear on everything but that statement.

Is there a hell for punishment following this life? For who? Is it purely that you believe all men will come to Christ ultimately that supposes your 'unknown' time of punishment in hell for men? Or are there clear scriptures that teach this 'unknown' time and degree of punishment? If hell is a mythological fearful invention of man, I'm not clear on why there would be any mention of a hell on your part where people are punished or suffer?

I hope those questions make sense.
Sincerely seeking some answers,

[SeekerSA]

The article is Gary's The Harrowing of Hell

The paragraph in context:

A few words of caution must be added here. I hope I have made it clear that in teaching universal salvation, I have not tried to mini­mize sin, nor have I taught that sinners will be saved while still clinging to their sins. I believe that many people have terrible sufferings awaiting them after they leave this life-how long and how severe I leave up to a loving and just God. But I believe that God never punishes for punishment's sake. He always has the sinner's repentance and restoration in view, and in His wisdom He knows exactly what it will take in each case to bring about the desired results!

I am opposed to the popular creed partially because I believe that it in fact teaches men to make light of sin in two ways: first, because it teaches a plan of retribution that is so unjust as to make people secretly believe its penalties will never be inflicted; and next, because it asserts that God either will not, or cannot, overcome and destroy evil and sin, but will bear with them for ever and ever. I repeat that not a single word has been written in these pages that would indicate that God is just a "good of boy" who winks at sin and considers it a light matter when someone violates His holy law! God forbid that I should teach such shallow theology! It is in the light of Golgotha that we see sin as exceedingly sinful, so sinful that nothing less than the death of God incarnate could pay for it. But let us be careful, lest in thinking we are honoring the atonement we are actually dishonoring it by limiting its power to save by teaching that Christ failed in His mission as Savior of the world, making Him a liar. Because He never said, "If I am lifted up I will draw SOME men to myself," or "I will TRY to draw all men to myself," but, "I WILL draw ALL MEN to myself

[Michele]

One thing to think about is that there absolutely must be something worth redeeming in each and every one of us....why else would God have died for the whole world, and bore the suffering of all.......wouldn't this be unnecessary suffering if only some would be saved????

[SeekerSA]

Dear Sincerely seeking

I have not read the entire article so I will address the questions at hand.

I was just looking for some statements/scriptures from you to support the above statement. My confusion is that you are so dogmatically clear on everything but that statement.

Is there a hell for punishment following this life?
For who?
Is it purely that you believe all men will come to Christ ultimately that supposes your 'unknown' time of punishment in hell for men?
Or are there clear scriptures that teach this 'unknown' time and degree of punishment?
If hell is a mythological fearful invention of man, I'm not clear on why there would be any mention of a hell on your part where people are punished or suffer?

I have listed the questions to make it easier for others to answer.  I however will try and address them all.

I do not believe that there is a hell punishment at all.  The reason I state this is because of the cross.  The penalty that was paid was for all the sins of mankind, past, present and future.  Jesus said before he blew out his last breath, "It is finished"  For there to be a literal hell would mean that Jesus, the appropriation for our sins, would be in that place right now paying the penalty perpetually.

Maybe other can address the "descended into hell (grave)" from the creed where he preached to the captives.

The traditional viewpoint equates hell (grave) with the Lake of Fire and they are distinctly two different places.  Hell in the first place is a mistranslation as hell cannot be thrown into itself viz the LoF.  Staying with the LoF, is it literal or is it symbolic?

If one views the LoF as literal, then obviously a predetermined time of punishment needs to be justified or annihilation.

What exactly is thrown into the LoF? People, souls? The sins of man.

Many believe the LoF is here and now and I tend to side with that analogy.

Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

A number of issues to be addressed here.

1. Beast - Literal or Allegorical?
2. False prophet - ?
3. Mark of the Beast - ?
4. alive?

If you hold to the beast being a literal Antichrist (alleged to be alive and well waiting for his chance to reveal himself) the false prophet to be the Pope and the MoB to be a chip implant then of course they will be cast alive into this fire.  That is the traditional viewpoint.  It is impossible to do a short rebuttal on any of these as each one has an allegorical meaning.

Many traditionally see or are taught of a false trinity of satan, the beast (aka Antichrist) and the false prophet (aka the Pope).

A short answer, the beast is in you and in each one of us, the false prophet is not the Pope.

G5578 ψευδοπροφήτης pseudoprophētēs psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace
From G5571 and G4396; a spurious prophet, that is, pretended foreteller or religious impostor: - false prophet.

Look at the other meanings.  I like the religious impostor as religion derived from the French archaic word Relega means to literally bind up, bondage.  Take that into account with what Jesus said, "Whom the Son sets free is free indeed" coupled with "..for my yoke is easy and my burden is light" we can clealy see that the bondage of religion is cast out.  God's purpose with Jesus was to reconcile man to God, religion of the scribes and pharisees did not cut it.  God desires a personal relationship with each one He cares to reveal Himself to.  Churchy rituals today do not help this relationship in any way.

If you study the teachings of Jesus, He spoke of many Antichrists and there were also many false prophets in the NT.  Here it speaks in the singular, hence it applies to each and every one of us.

Rev 20:10  And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Again singular

Rev 20:14  And death and hell (hades) were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

The wages of sin is death, we go to the grave when we die.  The first death is in Adam.

Rev 20:15  And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

1Co 3:15  If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

What goes into the fire is the sins of man, not the man.

This is a short answer but these all touch on so many other principles.  The bottom line is if you research, you will find just where the hell teachings came from.

It is claimed by "evangelicals"

1. Jesus spoke more about hell than the kingdom - false, a simple e-sword search will prove this.
2. Jesus spoke more of money than anything else (prosperity teachers) - false

I am not implying you have swallowed these lies hook line and sinker, but most have.  Many myths have been debunked and we have a number of threads here particularly in the Exposés board.  To my knowledge, most of these are from non-universalist scholars.

If you are prepared to examine with an open mind and be led by the Holy Spirit, you may learn much here.  None of us claim to have all the answers and only the Holy Spirit can make what you read a truth in your heart.

Resistance is natural, universalism is classified by many as a cult yet we follow no one man's theology or teaching.  We cannot even draw up a statement of faith as that legalises the work of the Holy Spirit.  We preach Jesus but we know, only the Holy Spirit can convert/save someone.

You do not need to convert to universalism as it is not a religion or a doctrine, the closest label one may apply is a belief centred on Jesus and the ultimate reconciliation of all mankind.

Ask more questions by signing up here, respectfully asked they will be respectfully answered.

Blessings

[willieH]

willieH: Hi "sincerely seeking"... :hithere:

Suffering is found in other than PHYSICAL terms... Actually, PHYSICAL suffering is probably the LEAST, compared to MENTAL or SPIRITUAL suffering...

GOD's acts are ALWAYS directed by WHO He IS... which is (TRUE/unselfish) LOVE...

Though there are exceptions, most any parent or child has experienced at least some (TRUE/unselfish) sincere LOVE... and whenever (TRUE/unselfish) LOVE is enacted... The only GOAL is a POSITIVE conclusion... even though CORRECTIONS may be found uncomfortable, if they proceed from (TRUE/unselfish) LOVE, the motive is to CONCLUDE with a RESULT which is POSITIVE...

The teaching of HELL contains no such POSITIVE... in fact, it teaches that GOD is angered by HIS OWN DOING (for He created ALL THINGS), ...and that He NEVER gets over that ANGER... this is NOT a PICTURE of (TRUE/unselfish) LOVE...  LOVE is slow to ANGER, NEVER FAILS, etc (1 Cor 13)

The view that I have of "punishment"/judgment after DEATH of THIS LIFE, (which is the 2nd Death) is this...

In Rev 3:18 ALL that read the words of this verse, are counseled to follow the instructions [bracket comments are mine]:

Rev 3:18   I COUNSEL THEE... to buy OF ME, ...GOLD, tried in FIRE [we are amidst the lake of Fire], that thou mayest BE RICH... and WHITE RAIMENT [garment washed in the Blood of CHRIST], that thou mayest be CLOTHED and that the SHAME of thy NAKEDNESS do NOT APPEAR; and anoint thine EYES with EYESALVE, that thou mayest SEE...

Let me break down This VERY IMPORTANT verse, with the :2c: the Lord has given me, as to what it means, and HOW it is related to JUDGMENT/Punishment...

1.  GOLD... CHRIST is addressing whoever reads this: to "buy" GOLD which IS tried in FIRE... CHRIST's trials occured IN THIS WORLD, and IN THIS LIFE...

The GOLD mentioned is the RICHES of the Word of GOD... which is the TREASURE (Prov 3:5-6 / Prov 25:2 / Mat 6:21 / Mat 19:21 / Lk 18:22) buried in the field (Earth - the Scriptures have been left for us to research and IN THEM is found the TREASURE)

2. WHITE RAIMENT... this is the CLOTHING which is WASHED in the BLOOD of the Lamb...  (Rev 19:13 / Rev 7:14) and those who "put on this clothing" shall avoid the appearance of NAKEDNESS before YHVH...

When Adam & Eve transgressed, the SHAME appeared IN THEM as TORMENTING NAKEDNESS, and so they HID themselves...

NO HIDING in the JUDGMENT... for ALL things done IN SECRET shall be made KNOWN... (Lk 8:17) 

Everyone that DOES NOT SUBMIT to the CHRIST in THIS LIFE, will rise IN (their) NAKEDNESS... Everyone who DOES SUBMIT to CHRIST in THIS LIFE, will rise CLOTHED IN HIM...

3.  EYESALVE... this is the one point in the verse that is somewhat elusive... Naturally, one would think it means that in SUBMISSION to CHRIST, is found the "eyesalve" to SEE what is in the Scriptures...

This is the point where those mentioned in Matt 7:21-23 are amiss... The "eyesalve" can only be gained by the observer (of this verse) taking NO CREDIT whatsoever for any of the above... Acknowledging that ALL is happening according to YHVH and His Son JESUS CHRIST, and ALL GLORY is given to them in ALL THINGS, ...Good or Evil...

You may OBJECT to what I say next, but...

None of the following are acceptable:  taking credit for...

1. leading souls to CHRIST;
2. Accepting CHRIST;
3. Teaching others the Gospel;
4. Any miraculous deeds in which you participated;
5. Preaching any portion of the Word to others;

Now, the reason these are unacceptable, is that the DOER is taking credit or merit (unrighteously) for the manifestation of the deeds of LOVE in which they are by the GRACE of CHRIST, taking part.  To do this, is to make iniquity of righteousness... (Matt 7:21-23)

CHRIST noted that He did NOTHING of Himself... we, if we are in SUBMISSION, do NOTHING of ourselves (Phil 4:13), giving CHRIST the GLORY in ALL THINGS...

NOW, in this verse (Rev 3:18) is also contained information about PUNISHMENT... which is misunderstood to be a PHYSICAL thing...

When each person IN THIS LIFE, comes to CHRIST... there is agony, sorrow, torment and suffering in the Spirit, as PRIVATELY, we are shown by our GOD, who and what we are... This is done aside from AWARENESS of ALL others... and is SOLELY between GOD and ourself...

The PUNISHMENT that shall find those not IN CHRIST... IS NOT PHYSICAL, ...it is the EXPOSURE of themselves to ALL... ESPECIALLY in the presence of the LAMB which was TORMENTED and suffered ...for them... Spiritual suffering, far exceeds physical...  A "broken arm" is good as new in a few months... A "broken HEART" sometimes NEVER heals...

EXAMPLE:  If one has ever had a dream in which they were PUBLICLY NAKED, such a dream is totally unnerving... There are 2 things which occur...

FIRST, ...it IS tremendously tormenting and sorrowfully embarrassing and seems UNENDING...
SECOND... you cannot WAIT for it to END... (and wake up!)

Those that have ears will hear this plea... to "buy" GOLD tried in fire... (JESUS CHRIST) in this lifetime... if the GOLD is "bought" then the LIFE that is lived is after the EXAMPLE of the Son of GOD... and IN HIM, the SHAME of NAKEDNESS is not endured in the presence of the LAMB and ALL OTHERS, as it shall be for MANY, in the life to come...

sHAloM

In  JESUS...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

[Kratos]

Hello and Welcome,

I will be brief and just say that it comes down to an understanding of what a good father is. Jesus said that this was a valid way to understand God and that if we being evil know how to give good things to our children, how much more would our Heavenly Father being good (Luke 11).

So we ask, does a good father ever punish his children? I would say that he would not be a good father if he does not. But, does a good father do so for His desire to satisfy his anger or wrath? No, he does so for the correction and perfection of his children.

Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

God is not an out of control Father who cannot control His wrath or ever forgive those who violate His will. All of His punishment is for our correction. God changes not and His correction in the ages to come will be the same as it is for us now.

Who will be punished after death? Those who have not been perfected while still in this life.

How long will this punishment last? Until the correction is complete.

I have spanked my children, but I never abused them by correcting them in anger. I did it to make them better. And there always came an end to their punishment and I always hugged them afterwards and let them know that I loved them and it was forgotten.

I know that God is a far better Father than I could ever be.

Kratos

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Kratos... :hithere:

Hello and Welcome,

I will be brief and just say that it comes down to an understanding of what a good father is. Jesus said that this was a valid way to understand God and that if we being evil know how to give good things to our children, how much more would our Heavenly Father being good (Luke 11).

Excellent observation...  :thumbsup:

So we ask, does a good father ever punish his children? I would say that he would not be a good father if he does not. But, does a good father do so for His desire to satisfy his anger or wrath? No, he does so for the correction and perfection of his children.

Again, great observation!  :thumbsup:

Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

It is in the understanding of these verses we may differ a little... I see this chastening as going on NOW...

God is not an out of control Father who cannot control His wrath or ever forgive those who violate His will. All of His punishment is for our correction. God changes not and His correction in the ages to come will be the same as it is for us now.

One thing I find a difference with is the "ages to come" (and you are welcome to disagree with this  :wink2: )

TIME shall come to and end... there is to be a LAST DAY... on the LAST DAY is the RESURRECTION, Judgment (and the necessary "correction" resulting from it) and last but not least, consumation of INCORRUPTION... (1 Cor 3:12-15)

ETERNITY is devoid of TIME as we understand it...  for it preceeded TIME and its domain is devoid of the primary characteristic of TIME, ...BEGINNINGS and ENDINGS...

Who will be punished after death? Those who have not been perfected while still in this life.

How long will this punishment last? Until the correction is complete.

The "punishment" or chastisement is occuring in this life... and ALL men are partaking of it...  The JUDGMENT (imo) is not for punishment, but for the determination of LOSS and REWARD... either works of LIFE are REWARDED IN CLOTHING of CHRIST or LOST IN the SHAME of NAKEDNESS...

THAT which is CLOTHED in CHRIST abides the FIRE (of this life), that which is NAKED is LOST and destroyed by the FIRE of THIS LIFE... for ALL things, good or evil are placed upon the ONLY FOUNDATION that is LAID... CHRIST... (1 Cor 3:11)

THAT "placement" is found to be, the moments of each of our lives, which either are revealed to be IN SUBMISSION, glorifying CHRIST or revealed to be in SIN, ... who in SHAME and NAKEDNESS, bring those moments before all...

I have spanked my children, but I never abused them by correcting them in anger. I did it to make them better. And there always came an end to their punishment and I always hugged them afterwards and let them know that I loved them and it was forgotten.

I know that God is a far better Father than I could ever be.

Kratos

completely BEAUTIFULLY said John... I am a father of 3 and grandfather of 9... and I have LOVED and (when necessary) chastized them all... ALWAYS for their good...  GOD is far greater than WE can possibly imagine to be, ...as a LOVING PARENT...

:goodone:  This is a good post John...  :goodpost:

I guess it depends on the view as to, WHEN the chastisement is actually taking place...  :dontknow:  You see it as future, ...I see it as NOW...

CHRIST suffered IN THIS LIFE... and I believe we FOLLOW Him in that OUR SUFFERING is within THIS LIFE... that is why I take the position that THIS LIFE is the "LAKE of FIRE" because CHRIST's TRIALS were while HE was amongst MEN (Rev 3:18)

JESUS exhorts those with ears to HEAR to buy of HIM ...GOLD, ...TRIED in FIRE...

Scripture also notes that HIS SUFFERINGS were what made Him "perfect" which actually is COMPLETE (Heb 2:9)... again, no human is without suffering... and there are many aspects of it in THIS LIFE, including mental, physical, and Spiritual...

My  :2c:   :bgdance:

sHAloM

In  JESUS...willieH  :Sparkletooth:

[Kratos]

Willie,

I have never been able to get hold of the whole eternity vs time thing. I am not saying that I do not understand it mentally, but I have not had it revealed to me by God in a way that I know it to be true.

I believe that God alone is eternal and part of that is that He changes not.

I brought this understanding up on the thread about the age of the earth and God as a Creator. It He has ever been a Creator ( and we know He is), then He has always been a Creator. He did not just become a Creator 6000 years ago for the first time. Otherwise, He would have changed and would not be eternally who He is. There could have been a billion ages and creations if He changes not and He is eternal.

This same understanding follows through for me of Him being a Father and chastising for our own good that we might be a partaker in His holiness. It He was this kind of Father to Jesus while He walked the earth, then He is this kind of Father now, and He will be this kind of Father in the ages to come.

What He does is what He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

I know that there is one verse that speaks of Him being All in All, but so far (at least), this is not enough for me to see Him changing in what He is or what He does. I see Him eternally a Creator and a loving Father. In the ages to come, He will still be Creating and He will still be bringing corrective punishment because He is eternal and He changes not. Everything else will continue to be in time and be either being created or changed by their dealings with Him.

At least this is how I see it today. Not sure about yesterday or forever.

Peace,

John

[AbbasChild]

This article by John Gavazzonie might be of some help and he says it much better than I ever could ( I deleted the first few sentences that are not relevant to the topic, because it was in form of an e-mail and would have gotten to long) :

The Judgment of God
Grace that won't accept "No"
John R Gavazzoni
Jan. 2, 2003
Thousand Oaks, CA



First, I think we need to clarify that the idea of Christ dying for us and dying for our sins, in the sense of Him dying INSTEAD of us, is really unscriptural. As I've mentioned in a couple of my articles; that is called the doctrine of "vicarious, substitutionary atonement."

In that view, God has to "get back at people" for sinning against Him, but since He loves them, He does it to Christ instead of us, and if we'll accept that, we'll go free. I could go into much more detail about it, but I won't at this point. You can though, if you haven't already, read two of my articles, "The Great Misrepresentation" and "The Atonement" , which might help you better interpret what the writer is saying.

    * The death of Christ is not an "instead-of" death, it is a "co-death."
    * Our old man (the font of sin) died and was buried WITH Him, rather than HIS dying INSTEAD of us.
    * The totality of humanity was resident in Christ, and the totality of humanity's curse of death ran its course in Christ,
    * so that IN Him, and WITH Him, we died, once and for all.
    * Christ's death does not settle a legal matter as is conventionally taught, it settles what manner of man dies and what manner of man lives.
    * He effectively died FOR us by INCLUDING us in his death that we might be raised up by His resurrection into newness of life
    * as a new person whose origin is from eternity when our true personhood was foreknown.
    * Our true personood has its roots in who we are in Christ.
    * That is how we were foreknown by God before time began and before the lie about God and man was spoken.

That is how God continues to know us. That is not to say that He is not aware of the contradictions that cling to us in the form of the lie-constituted false persona that afflicts us, but that will ultimately serve to root us more deeply in our true personhhood, in the Being in which "we live and move and have our being."

Back to the statements in question: The passages of scripture that Charley refers to reveal what he's actually talking about, which has to do with the correctional judgment of God, as opposed to the conventional view that boils down to a retaliatory vindictiveness on God's part.
Allow me to just take the one passage, as beautifully representative of all three and representative of what Charley means to convey:

"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned"
(John 15:6, RSV). I will point out something in Jesus' story of the vine and how it illustrates God's relationship to us both in terms of supplying us with His life and dealing with that which is counterproductive to that life flow.

    * Very few Christians have read this marvelous story carefully and I was among them until the Spirit brought me up short years ago and caused me to see some things I'd never noticed before.
    * At the heart of Jesus' illustration is the picture of
    * Christ as the Vine,
    * the Father as the One who cultivates and cares for the vine,
    * and we as the branches.



Probably the most familiar statement in the story is in verse five; "I am the vine and you are the branches." When the Lord began to open to me the meaning of this story, He pointed out that Jesus had made something very clear about the vine in verse one that must be kept in mind in interpreting the rest of the parable.
He establishes something about the vine in verse one that colors His whole message and particularly verse five.
"We must not infer that the vine, as spoken of in verse 5, is essentially dissimilar to the vine as it is spoken of in verse 1."

In the first verse, He doesn't simply say, "I am the vine," rather He says, "I am the TRUE vine." Of course, there's only one vine involved in this whole story, so that when he speaks of the vine in verse five, it is the vine that He calls "true" in verse one. Now, if He is the vine and we are the branches, and the vine which He is, is the true vine, then the branches must be "true" also. We---the real we---cannot be branches in the true vine and be false branches.
The branches are part of,
they are one with, the vine.
The vine is inclusive of the branches.

If you say that the branches are false, then you are saying that there is falseness in the vine, but that can't be right, because Jesus is the TRUE vine---pardon my repetition. If you'll check any good dictionary of new testament words, you'll find that the Greek word, translated "true" in this case, carries the idea of real, ideal and genuine. That is, anything that is described by that Greek word is the exact opposite of false, fraudulent or deceptive. It is true and thus it is not a lie.

    * I have, in recent years, been captivated by the realization that there is, in regard to all things, the truth and the lie.
    * The truth is Christ and all that is true in and of Him, is true of us. He, the Truth, is our truth; our genuine ideal, our reality.
    * There is a lie in opposition to this truth, and the fact that it makes an appearance and opposes the truth, in no way makes the lie true and in no way detracts from the truth.
    * The lie has no creativity of its own, it attempts to steal and use the divine principle of incarnation against the God of incarnation.
    * God is the incarnating, incarnate God. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God-----and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1, 14).
    * The lie puts on flesh in counterfeiting the truth, but though it parades around, flaunting its perverse behavior, it is a lie and every manifestation coming from it is constituted by that non-truth.

    *
      By seeing this we come to know what is pruned away from the vine, away from us.
    *
      We can then understand what the fire of God (the fire which God is) operates against and what it consumes.
    *
      The God-fire, the Lake of Fire, the baptism with the Spirit and with Fire, consumes the chaff that envelops our true being in Christ, and quite marvelously so, that chaff temporarily serves a purpose in the unfolding of the truth.

    *
      Three dots, so to speak, need to be directly connected in the picture that scripture draws for us of God:
    *
      First, "Our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29);
    *
      second, "God is love" (I John 4:816); and
    *
      third "Love never fails" (I Cor. 13:8, Phil.).
    *
      So we can see that love will not fail to separate us from the lie we have been subjected to.

    *
      Most essentially that lie has to do with the true identity of God and our identity in Him.
    *
      God's nature, His "I AM" identity, is declared, manifested and gloriously expressed in the Christ, whose body we are.
    *
      As members of Christ, we, with Him as our Head are the bodily fulness of God, and as living stones in relatationship to the Chief Cornerstone, we are the living temple of God.

Paul is in total agreement with Jesus when we compare Paul's statement that "You are the temple of God, which temple IS HOLY" (I Cor. 3:16, 17, 19, emphasis, mine), with Jesus' story, telling us that He is the true vine and we are the branches. The temple of God, which we are, is holy.
That means it is separate from all that is sinful and unclean.

No matter what lie may be spoken about the temple, no matter if, for a season in the eonion dimension, the temple of living stones is partially concealed beneath a veneer of the lie, the lie cannot change the holy nature of the temple. In the case of the vine, God is cutting away what we are not, what is in contradiction to the vine's reality, which includes the reality of the branches---again, please pardon the repetition. We might say that God is cutting away sucker branches.

Charley seems to be addressing a situation that we often find among professing Christians, and that is the idea that, being in Christ, exempts one from the corrective judgment of God. Being in Christ, in fact, quite particularly qualifies us for the corrective work of God, which paradoxically has already been carried out in Christ; a completed work which we are presently experiencing.

That which God did in Christ is at work in us in the present, and though it's so hard to put into words, we are not going through it in order to make it complete, we are going through that which has been completed.

Our experience does not complete it; our experience confirms it. God's finished work in Christ is unfolding in us presently. I hope this has been of help. You are a saint, dear brother, and don't forget it.

Stay tuned for future serious, seminal samplings.

John Gavazzoni

[Kratos]

Floyd,

Thanks for the paste and post. It definately speaks and is something to meditate upon.

Kratos

[Michele]

He has always been a Creator. He did not just become a Creator 6000 years ago for the first time. Otherwise, He would have changed and would not be eternally who He is. There could have been a billion ages and creations if He changes not and He is eternal.

Hey Kratos

......and I believe that there are over billions (infinity) of ages, creations, realms, etc.....

YES!  I absolutely see this......and when we understand the full impact of what it means for the CREATOR to live inside us (the created)......we'll understand LIFE in a whole new way.

We are a microcosm (seeing the same patterns reproduced at all levels of reality) of our Father.......little creators.

When I read the story of the flood, it seems as if our creator is this amazing artist that suddenly dislikes his own creation...all except for one small part that he sees as "Good".....and so the artist decides to wash the canvas clean, and only leave that which is good...

It is much the same for us when we repent of our ways.......of the mess that we've created in our lives......and we decide to start fresh....keeping only that which is good.

Nothing good can ever die! :cloud9:

We will go through some Spiritual droughts, but the rain will come at the right time.....in God's time.