Tentmaker Forum

Hi everyone! I hope, you're all good.

There is a issue that is long attached to my mind.

They say that the pleasure of God is to save every human being. But I have not seen these verses.  the exact opposite,

Proverbs 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you

Psalms 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them.

Deut 28:63 Just as the LORD has found great pleasure in causing you to prosper and multiply, the LORD will find pleasure in destroying you. You will be torn from the land you are about to enter and occupy.
( A second question about it, - At the beginning of these verses rape is mentioned. Adults and children punishment. So, Does god enjoy a child's rape (or a adult rape) ?  )

I guess, Job didn't say the words in vain,   Job 9:23 When a sudden disaster brings death, he makes fun of the despair of innocent people.

And much more verses. I hope you can help. Thank you.

When God judges the wicked, it is for the purpose of correcting them, it is not for the purpose of eternal destruction. There are many examples in the scripture so here are a couple.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 11:25-32

So even though Israel was cut off and judged in many ways- God has a plan that will eventually lead to "all Israel will be saved". He will take away there sins, and they will repent and worship Him.....Then Paul goes on to demonstrate that this is what God has done with all mankind....


For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

Jesus said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me". John 12:32

Paul reaffirms this in many places, but here is one example in Colossians chapter 1

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,  and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:19,20

The reason God put His fulness in Jesus is to reconcile all things- but "Every knee shall bow....", adversaries will be subjected- often through judgment- as the verses you quoted show, but the scripture says,


Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the Law that gives freedom. 13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:13

When you look at the scriptures through a lense colored by false teaching and assumptions from the past- you miss a lot. I would advise you to get more familiar with the scriptures concerning the mercy of God and His ultimate plans :o)

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.  Eph 1:9,10

Thanks for  answer and advices. I will.

In fact, I sometimes get confused cause what I read so much.

For example, You said,  "When God judges the wicked, it is for the purpose of correcting them"   Who is them?

Hebrews 12:6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,  and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son

Proverbs 1:16 For whom the Lord loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights

Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent

2.samuel 7:14-15 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands.  But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

and many verses.

God is making a distinction in this verses. Loves and son ones.  If everyone had his son, (or everyone had his loves) he would not make these distinctions.  Everyone is punished. But not everyone is a son and everyone is not punished for correction.

And, There is only this verse in relation to the god's love of all. John 3:16
And this verse has many opposition. There are too many appeals. And It is not as clear as the verses that say that everybody is not a son and object of love.

And,  I do not see the correction when I read these parts. (deuteronomy 28 -  Actually, There are many parts )
I see a cruel revenge. Or Justice.
Almost, The punishment is the same as the crime. Or It is more horrible.

Sometimes I believe that God loves everybody and disciplines everybody to correction.  I'm so happy.
Then I read the bible, and I see that it is not real. My head is confused.

I hope you can help me solve these verses. Thank you.

I believe the judgment is earthly.. like Obadiah 16 says, "your own doings will return upon your own head"

If I saw someone trying to anduct a poor innocent child, I would be happy to see someone slam him with a 2 by 4 board.. Actually even if not caught abducting, but later after abducting, etc.. I'd be even happier..

As I grieve over the abuses which are done.. I know in Old Testament days "Tophet" the valley, means drums. For the drums they beat to drown out the screams of babes they were sacrificing live in fire to other 'gods' - wherein God said " such a thing" fire "never came up from MY mind!!"

And I know psalms says that was the last straw.. and He loosed judgment.. on Israel for it. And He wanted all the nations doing such to perish off the earth.. until judgment (DOA) that is.. Why we could all be descended from such 'people'. The practice was common. And yes, I believe it made God who is love, quite angry. Makes me queasy and angry! I mean wow.

Look at before the flood.. yes, everyone perished.. but what does it say? Everybthought (thus action) was continually evil.. and I believe that is where all of us would end up if not for God's intervention and the taming influence of Christianity/the gospel in the world.

Besides, with such barbarity.. harsh language and tone of voice is all they will understand. Those who steal others into the sex slave trade.. or use that trade.. yes judgment is what they deserve.

But praise God! The idea that all hope is lost once one dies is myth. :thumbsup:

He will again pluck evildoers out of the land.. off their plush estates.. I believe He is talking about very evil practicing folks.. And even that- judgment - is not a 'forever' thing.. And, I believe judgment is results and consequences.. not that He doesn't hurry them along sometimes, perhaps for the sake of those abused and oppressed under them.
That my :2c: anyway.. I have thought about this quite a bit, and sought and prayed for answers and understanding.. I've come to believe that the adjusting always needs to be in me., my understanding, etc.. and it's never Him. "God is Love"..

But if the full fruit of evil is not let to happen.. who will learn anything at all? :dontknow:

God bless :Peace2: :girlheart:

And yes, I can even read the Old Testament these days., but it's not really necessary.. imo..

The Old testament is about the Jews; the other nations are referred to with roles to play. The Jews do not try to convert them.
Initially there were not too many laws. They did not come till Moses.
Associated with the laws are the writings in  the first 5 books of the bible. This includes all sorts of rules/laws and regulations- with their consequences for disobedience.
There are indeed many curses in Deut 28. Many teachers/lecturers/preachers are using this in the current age.

Paul talks to the Romans and the Galations about the purpose of the law.

Then he makes the key point about the reason of the law and highlights what the GRACE achieved and does for us- rescues us out of that bondage, but each in their appointed time.
1 Cor 15;23 is a major key about ALL being saved but each in their own time.

Man was originally created to be like God- so we have to learn through experience what that means.
Some people have been given roles; many watch and learn; but ALL will be saved in the long term. To carry this out is like running a business successfully. There are procedures and time frames to do that.
GOD and JESUS know what they are doing and when.
All this to learn what love really means.

Eph 3;19,20 " To know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God.
                     Now to the One WHO is able to do far more abundantly than we ask or imagine,
                     according to the power that is working within us."

I think this is where you have to disregard the letter of the words and instead find their spirit. The ancients often used a multidimensional layer of meaning in the verses. And hid in these layers are deeper laws of life than the mere literal letter displays. Jesus did away with the Old Testament because it's only blind law. That means the literal letter does count for nothing, God is better than that. But it's a reading not everyone is capable of because you need to know the Hebrew and the Greek. It cannot be translated really. We don't understand scripture very well and operate from key verses disproving other, lesser verses. For example, "The Lord is friendly and His goodness endures forever" cancels out verses about God's wrath. But in these wrathful verses are other meanings if you know the Hebrew and the other dimensions of meaning. Especially the book of Job is full of alternate meanings. I know a Lady that can do the Hebrew and she wrote a book about it. You do not have to think God literally struck Egypt with plagues or Jonah really was eaten by a fish and kept alive. These improbability of these letter verses shows that you have to look at alternate meanings of the words, words that sound similar but mean something else entirely. The bible is often like a riddle book.

Thank you for answers.

We see his punishment not only in the book but also in daily life.

For example, who has taken someone else's wife,    god punish by giving someone else to he's wife.
Yes, Maybe justice requires it. But  Where is compassion in such situations?

Sometimes you encounter while living. If a person has done something to one, he lives the same. Even if he repents, he continues to suffer. (someones)

- Life, the happiness it gives, it take back much more. -

If we face a heavy challenge with the consequences of each of our errors,  Where is mercy?

I thought God forgave my sins and he would not give me the revenge. But after what I read in the bible and what I see outside, I'm thinking, he will give back a day. God have mercy!

God himself says,  "You will try to be happy but I will not allow it!" Doesn't really allow it. There are so many people who are suffering while trying to be happy.

"Builds a house can not live there."    "You'll do it, I'll ruin it."

Entire of this verse,  James 2:13  because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

And, "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."

His exasperation and punishment goes far beyond the tomb.  If the rage ends, this time it continues to punish for the justice.

But the odd thing is, The punishment of the other for the fault of someone.

God always does this. Why?  I dont want a child, so God will not bother it.

Neither will he be able to punish him, nor will he hurt me with him. (again look, deut 28 and other verses)  But god can use my other loves to get revenge. I can not escape his wrath. God have mercy!

When I look at all of this, I do not see correction and compassion.

I think so because there is nothing to show that these penalties are a correction penalty. But there are many verses that say are punished for what they deserve. God pleasure for justice. Look,

Romans 2:5   Rev 6:10  Luke 18:7  Jeremiah 9:24

People are happy that god has provided justice. Not for them to correction.

Other things,

I actually noticed that, I am a hopeful universalist  :laughing7:

My questions are not against universalism. İt is my struggle again non-universal verses. Or non-universalist god. The non-universal salvation and brutal punishments very bad for me.

I am coming to this website to open my eyes.

It can help if there is a detailed article on this subject. And If there is a comment on these verses-issues, I will happy.

There are also spiritual laws to be mindful of in suffering. For example, when I pray alone against my problems it may often happen that I find no solution or salvation from them. But if I go to a trusted friend who prays with me, then salvation can often come to me very powerfully. "When two or three are gathered in my name." I also find services very important ... I believe angels attend them too and if someone shows up regularly they can prepare spiritual gifts for those who attend the service, and these gifts would be essential for our happiness.

In our group home there is a young man who always reads spiritual books from Joyce Meyer and prays alone and tries to help himself. But he never prays with others and never goes to services. I think he is very stuck and cannot become happy in Christ, and truly he has temptations of listening to nazi music and being nasty to others albeit he then reads again his Joyce Meyer books for peace of mind.

Obeying the spiritual laws is important. There are many of them, for example a pastor's prayer against an illness you might have should be more helpful than endlessly praying on your own. Also God tries to inspire us to good deeds, and I've also seen people ignore that totally although they did no concrete evil. For example, in my group home here we almost never help each other with money when someone has a need. We all do not have much but this avarice is shameful, in my opinion. Me and a friend are the only ones who gives from themselves here ... I'm not bragging, but it's true. When everyone is so avaricious we do not get fresh spiritual air in the house.

This isn't just the group home, it concerns many people. For example, sometimes I had little money and went begging on the marketplace for 2 or 3 Euros so I could eat a sausage or drink a coffee in a small shop or buy a pack of cigarillos. I've never seen other people beg there. So why do people speak as if beggars are totally worthless and should be put away? (People can really speak like that here.) Most people have an income of at least 1000 Euros. I have an income of 180 Euros in the group home (and free food). What problem do I make people if I ask for 2 Euros? That's so utterly negligible that it's laughable. My best friend who earns 2000 Euros per month as technician almost never gave me a gift. I've been brave once and asked him the first time in my life (we are friends for 30 years) to give me 50 Euros and he said I am totally stupid and would only by useless smokes from it. This complete avarice makes me laugh at people, they are very silly and I know God has to laugh about this too. I am not angry because I have Christ and because I have a gypsy soul and have learned to live with my poverty and ask God for spiritual gifts. But the people make themselves ugly and silly by their avarice.

I deny people the right to influence me there. For example, when I had more money a lady from the Philippines came to me online and asked for 50 Euros. I quickly saw her need and wanted to help her. I told my mother and she went totally crazy at me how I could give money away. This disturbed me so much that  while I gave the lady what she needed I felt bad about it. This is a sting many people here give themselves. They love riches and feel super proud if they give 200 Euros per year to the red Cross or a charity or so. But in fact we should give 10 percent of our stuff, and people, including christians, do not give as much and say beggars are worthless. We are hating people because they want 2 Euros. With 10 Euros you can last a whole day, a pack of smoke costs 2 Euros, two bottles cola cost 3 Euros and a Doner Food which tastes very well costs 5 Euros. Why do people feel the need to be so avaricious when it comes to such small sums? That is laughable and in the same time a bit scary.

The spiritual rewards are great for giving. Abba helps so much. You can ask for peace in return for good deeds and the path there is made clear. But if people do not obey the spiritual laws they suffer and do not get forward.

Quote from: whatistruth on July 27, 2017, 10:04:54 AM
Thank you for answers.

We see his punishment not only in the book but also in daily life.

For example, who has taken someone else's wife,    god punish by giving someone else to he's wife.
Yes, Maybe justice requires it. But  Where is compassion in such situations?

:Chinscratch: I'm thinking you didn't understand any replies here.. but that's not unusual for us humans :laughing7:

We've been educated/indoctrinated to think a certain way, and it takes a LOT to shake a mind loose.. Think about this. He is perfect and is life. So what does it mean to be imperfect? And when life is built upon shifting sand, say, on the beach.. what is bound to happen?

But.. how else to learn? Truly.

Look how hard it is to escape mind sets.. The world teaches us that we are not at fault (not sinners, imperfect-to say the least) ..That it is God who is at fault.. and how hard it is to shake that from off us.. Someone who has been chopping off heads for instance, do they deserve to wake p from their grave, immediately to flowers, butterflies and birds singing? No they must face the truth about theirself. Repentance is the entrance into God's kingdom and his kingdom of perfection is coming.. Perfection can only consume imperfection. Is that a harsh lesson? Absolutely. But it's Truth (imo:). And it simply must be understood by all. Imperfection, fault, sin kills, destroys, consumes, rots.. why look at the animals, they eat each other. That's imperfection. (But do you think the barbarian cutting off heads is going to understand that sort of language right away?)

Love ya brotha! God bless!

Sometimes I might not understand exactly what you wrote.I can understand simple sentences better.
My language is not enough. Nevertheless, I struggle to gain a valuable perspective. For this reason, I evaluate every thought. Moreover, I use most of my time to understand what you write and to express myself to you. I'm doing a translation.

Sometimes, I did not receive answers to the verses. I still wonder. But I cannot  pressure on anyone. Sometimes even the examples of life you give me makes me happy. (And thank you anti nietszche-Ross)

Anyway.

Many people talk about learning.

What does a non-criminal person learn when he is punished?

What does a kid learn when she's rape?

What learns when a person commits suicide after rape?

A lot of questions like this come to mind. It may not be the answer of all questions. But sometimes, It is enough to gain a point of view that is appropriate to the bible.

And I love you too, sister  :friendstu:

Thank you for your interest in me.

Pray for me.
God bless!

God had a plan from the very beginning. All things are going according to his plan. God gave mankind the tree of good and evil and this is what we are  learning. If we only experienced good we would never learn what evil means, the same applies to evil. Your first post about the punishments in the Old Testament is for this life, not after we are all spiritual beings. During this life we will all suffer some kind of trials to teach us things we would never know otherwise. I guarantee you that whatever troubles, trials, suffering we go through, someone will learn something from it. Everything is based on good and bad/evil. We have to experience both. Even Jesus did.

It is the beginning of our spiritual life and the end of this physical life that we must focus on. Even though the earth and all that is in it experiences...evil, physical life,... we all will one day experience the ...spiritual life, good,... as well.  It is all a plan of God and we all groan waiting for the adoption the redemption of our body. Read Romans 8:18-23.  Not everyone will be saved in our life time it is a progressive thing. I believe some will be saved when Christ returns. One thing for certain, everyone will be saved in their own time.

CHB   

Thanks for your useful thoughts.

Sometimes I think, does god direct people's behaviour to punish? Bad behaviour.

There are many examples in the book that make think about it.

Other things,

I thinking,

Deut 28: 18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed,

I understand why children are crippled. Or they are why in bad station. I say, God really pays the penalty of his parents.

Other example,
Deut 28:50 a nation of fierce countenance who will have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young.

Obviously god does not like these behaviors.

I think of this verse. If I do not give up seat to elderly on bus, or I don't respect a young person, will God give me a penalty?

and the most important thing,

Deut 28: 30  You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit.

When I love one, when I make happiness plans, God will take it away.

Because of my mistakes, others will be punished and suffered.

And much more...

Because of the verses I read,  I thought,

if I stumble or fall imto place,  I say, it comes from god. 

I get bored when I think about it.

How can I survive when I think of all this? Sometimes I feel I'm tired.

Sometimes I say, I wish I never read the bible. Especially OT.

For all my thoughts, god, have mercy!

I often think, the whole journey is psychological.. of the psyche.. (translated soul).

All the things you say are true.. in the Old Testament.. Christianity/belief in Jesus (Reconciliation to God through Jesus.. all in Him and Him in all) is "a new and living way". .."There is therefor now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

If you do not give your seat on the bus to a poor tired elderly person, will you not punish yourself and burn with shame whenever you think if it? I see why folks have made whips of ropes and beat their self! See.. all psychological!

We have such a hard time forgiving ourselves. I think that's why Jesus died on the cross… All psychological. Not that God or even Justice as they say, required a sacrifice.. but we do. (Just my opinion.)

And God turned the sacrifice into a feast.. a family gathering with much delightful fruits and dishes..

Yes this is really the way I think. I've never been churched. Not really. And I may be kind of your opposite. I maybe should fear God more than I do! I really do believe in cutting people some slack! Including me.. Not that I don't feel bad when I'm an idiot! Which happens quite often. But I don't worry about it unduly.

Now what are the previous verses and context of these verses you quoted?

I have to look them up.. probably later..

A question I have is why does everyone think God causes a child to come into the world crippled? I figure he's just letting imperfection, side shoot of thinking ability because the side shoot of thAt, is the ability to make choices. (Surely?)

So he's letting it run its course. What other option is there? No rational creatures ever? An eternal ant farm?

I'm reminded of a John Prine song lyrics ..not everybody would be happy with the song, I wouldn't play it in church.. but I especially love those certain lyrics. (see kinda easy on myself..)

The lines -

Quote
John Prine

In spite of ourselves
We'll end up a'sittin' on a rainbow
Against all odds
Honey, we're the big door prize
We're gonna spite our noses
Right off of our faces
There won't be nothin' but big old hearts
Dancin' in our eyes.

...nothin' but big old hearts dancing in our eyes

...we're the big doorprize..
:Peace2:
           ....in spite of ourselves
_____________

"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."  - Galatians 3:24

Quote
I think of this verse. If I do not give up seat to elderly on bus, or I don't respect a young person, will God give me a penalty?

God gave us choices. We can only choose what is available to us to choose. If we chose evil/bad, we pay the consequences, if we choose good we reap the rewards.

This is the way I understand it all anyway.

CHB

Thank you so much for answers.

I know "as a man sows, so shall he reap "

If I pay the price for every bad behaviour, where is the grace ? Also, For who, for what bad?

For example, Maybe I'm too tired that day? Maybe, I will not get up from my place, cause such a necessity is imposed on me...
I give an example for about this talk. I am not normally a disrespectful person. But I think different when I feel pressure.

Example, How many people here or in the other place thought that they respected each other? Sometimes we can not act like we need it.

It is true that I have to make a choice. But  Am I choosing, the choose environment  ? No. 

Is not it a bad thing to choose to create an environment that will do my bad behavior? Did God make a bad choice?

God forgave david. But the punishment continued.Maybe there really is endless death. And when we are forgiven, we are saved from eternal death. This is terrible. Anyway,

Does god triggers the evil within man? 2.chro 21:16

And,

God sends israelites other nations and punishes them.

He tells they how much evil is going to be among other nations.  Maybe the persons is bad. But, God add sin to other nations' sins to punish israel. !?

God punish David. For this, he uses his sons. A lot of people are sinning and suffering during punishment.  Maybe, They had other sins but it would not be added other.
Romans 2:5

Anyway,

Maybe there are points I'm mistaken. I apologize for it both from you and from God. But Yet that have not been proven wrong.The verses are still there...

Dear marie, Maybe,  cause you are a lady, you can understand the sensitivity.

You think, on top of it,  'you have an OCD ...'

Everything I read may be against me. A little loveliness can trigger my illness. A tiny misinformation may cause me insomnia.

If I see all of them as disrespectful, you (I speak in general. I'm not talking about personal. ) pay the price for your bad choices. Besides, no one has to treat me special. Even if we do something bad, I choose to forgive. Of course sometimes, I cant do. Because, I am human. But, I think it is grace. Forgive! And maybe the elderly person in the bus has to do something to keep the other side from sin.

Again, If I speaking stupidly in the eyes of God, forgive me and correct me.  :punish:

Previously, I wanted a prayer. But I don't know it was consider .? But now, I especially ask you to pray. For my OCD disease and welfare.

I dont know, god what's revenge for? But I know bad god definition is the thing that makes me most upset.

God bless all !

You're right, Whatistruth, I didn't even notice your wish for prayer! I am very zealous for truth or that is trying to explain truth (when I can, or think I can?)

We have all, I believe, questioned God and even shook our fist at God.. but in more maturity and maturity years, I have come to see (1) not to take things as personal. Law is impersonal, and the law of conscience and retribution is built into all things.

~~~ But here is the major thing. Jesus on the cross is our shade. He stands between us and retribution. We no longer are trapped in the law of retribution (sin and death/calamity).

We are totally forgiven. I believe we were before but didn't know it.

Twenty odd years ago my son asked me two questions - why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? (a VERY good question) And isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?

I answered him but I wasn't very happy with my answers. So I prayed for much better ones. And bam! (bam! bam!) they came back to me, and changed me and my life.

[what we all most need is the Holy Spirit.. peaceable spirit of God to baptize us and dwell in us and we're told to pray for this.]

Now I had been a firm and happy believer previous to this 'experience' - there wasn't really any bams! It just seems that way now looking back.

So here's what I consider to be the answers he gave me. First was the idea that before ever doing any act of creation, God could see eveRy possibility stretched out before Him. It was kind of like a 360 degree blanket stretched out straight in the 'air' before his sight and all around Him is how it entered my thoughts and imagination.

And then came to me the knowing that he has done each and every thing just the way he has in order to bring about the very best of all possibilities.

Next came the idea that He is life itself! I think we all know this.. but now I was aware of it.. And with that was the knowing that he is perfect - - or He too would fade away. (Now how I know about this fading, I don't know, I just 'know' it's true.)

~ ~ This wasn't next, but was very important - because he is life, he suffers, lives through and experiences all sufferings which EVER occur. Why?

Would He put Himself through all that! Perhaps because he is not creating an ant farm, but an un-breakable paradise perfection, and his own family.. of many beautiful branches..

...I once suffered very deep dark depressions.. :gsmile: I needed healing and I was "told" to meet him in the quietness and in His Word every day three times a day.. to aim for that.. it's a restful thing not law. And to look at nature, outside or in.  A quiet place with a tree or plant or flowers. Mostly, i have chairs by windows.

When God endowed thinking ability to angel and man, a whole new world (tree) of possibilities came about. Why? Because (surely?) with thinking ability comes the ability - sooner or later - to make choices. [Not about when we come to the Lord though!]

And God, only able to be honest, well.. there was that tree in the garden.

If God is life, and perfection, as soon as one chooses any thing in thought, word or deed, that disagrees with what he chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life.

You see the dilemma.. A real Pandora's box. But what was God's other choice? No rational creatures ever?

This whole series ended with a question coming to mind, which question, yes, I figure was sent from my heavenly father.. And I'll write it just as I received it - why did God wait so very LONG and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought had occurred, but after it had matured into outright sedition and trickery? Didn't he know what would happen? Of course He did.."

But he did it that way so all would take this unavoidable journey and lesson all together at once. Otherwise one would wander away now.. another later.. another later., and so on and so on, taking virtually 'forever'.

Unavoidable? Yes, if there's to be thinking ability, that is.

He's letting it run its course, otherwise it wouldn't be choice, and nothing would be proven. What is the best teacher? The only teacher?! (Experience)

Without, however his intervention, we all would perish. Fade away.

He is writing this foundation truth (imo:) on every heart and mind. Deeply engraving it. And I believe there is NO other way. To create a in-breakable paradise / perfection and total joy and peace.

This imperfection is but a moment compared to infinity in perfection/life/God. It's a washing, we can submit ourselves to it, to Him. And he will "turn our mourning into dancing".. See the law of retribution/'punishment' as the blazing heat of the sun. But Jesus is our shade from it. "I sat down under His shade in great delight. And His fruit was sweet to my taste" S.O.S [i get a kick out of that sos, like Morse code.. "come away my beloved and be like the deer by the mountain streams.." Song of Solomon.

God bless you! He Loves you so much!!

I still aim at 3 x's a day each day in Quietness and His Word, I have a lot of chores and it really helps!

God bless you! I will keep you in my prayers.. Have a good day!

PS Satan stands in front of God pretending to be him.. and yes horrific but he's a liar..

Quote from: whatistruth on July 28, 2017, 11:28:22 AM

If I pay the price for every bad behaviour, where is the grace ? Also, For who, for what bad?

Hi whatistruth,

Sorry if i am confusing you. I think God's grace will become evident when everyone is saved. It will be his grace and mercy that saves us from eternal death. In this life it rains on the good and bad but this is only in this physical life.

You are in my prayers.

CHB

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness"

Many people look at the gospel as if it is about judging sin and their response to it is driven by fear. Jesus said that He did not come to judge the world but that the world could be saved through Him.

The gospel is about transformation. That is where grace is pointed. It is not just about making sins disappear. It is about making the sinner disappear by transforming us inwardly into people who love God and love one another- so that sin becomes less of a problem.

When we sin, God is not looming over us to strike us down. He is working with us to change our hearts and minds. He will chastise us at times, as a Father chastises a rebellious child, but He is not just waiting to crush us.

If we come to Christ and do not want to change- we will suffer consequences, because sin has its own reward. If we become predatory and start consuming the welfare of others, God may step in and reprove or rebuke us in one way or another- but still.... always He is seeking our repentance and transformation, the fruit of His Sons death outworking in His creation- that is the end goal always.

Grace is given for salvation and salvation is about healing, restoration and transformation. The transformation is into a being who walks in righteousness and love because the divine nature reigns within because of Jesus- the True Vine.

Marie, Actually, there's a lot I want to talk about. I think there is a time for some things. I know, your writings will helpful me.

CHB No, no dear my brother. You didn't mix my mind. You shared your thoughts.You gave me your time. You said the truths. Thank you so so much for these.

Eaglesway, what you write is important to me. Thank you for helping me.And,  as he said,  "as a man sows, so shall he reap" I am sometimes afraid that he always talks about punishment in the OT and NT. Sometimes, I see it as unjust some punishments. (especially,innocent punishments) But who am I !? Even if I fear, I can not set the god according to my own head.

Again, Thank you all. You are precious for me. And,  Thank God for I have my brothers&sisters like you!

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

...and amen... great thoughts CHB! and EW ("predatory, consuming other's well being" :o wow! veRy well said! :gsmile: imo, the very way of imperfection.. so I just had to comment!

Man makes many mistakes, but can never change who his father is, how  and when he was conceived, where he grew up, what he learned from his parents in the early growing up years- yet still had parents- cannot change that.

The most encouraging concept for me is the FACT that because of Jesus' work we are literal children of God.

God's love is greater than man can attempt.
Look what kind of love the Father has given us- that we may be called the children of God- and that is what we are.
No discipline is pleasant at the time, but is necessary for the development of our character.
God disciplines whom He loves. [Hebrews 12]

The problem is, not everyone is a son but everyone is punished.

You can see the 3nd message about what I mean.

Except that,

Because of the disease and troubles he gives me, we are like enemies with him. I am doing many sins under the influence of what I have disease and sadness. I mean, it is not something that adds discipline or virtue. these do not create anything other than hatred in me.

Thanks for answers.

Discipline is different than punishment.. It's subtle I suppose.. when a child goes to touch the hot stove as a good parent, we don't just ignore it..

I'm also convince that God does not make us sick, or break bones or what have you.. I know that is prevalent in Christian circles, but I don't buy it.. Okay, if we want to say He allows it.. maybe.. or in some cases, sure..

But I do not agree that God is doing evil in the world. If someone knifes me, I do not view that as having been done by God.

I feel He is in complete control.. Yet! at the same time is allowing us 'freedom' a part of the package I think of as rationality.

Quote from: Ross on July 29, 2017, 06:02:39 AM
Man makes many mistakes, but can never change who his father is, how  and when he was conceived, where he grew up, what he learned from his parents in the early growing up years- yet still had parents- cannot change that.

The most encouraging concept for me is the FACT that because of Jesus' work we are literal children of God.

God's love is greater than man can attempt.
Look what kind of love the Father has given us- that we may be called the children of God- and that is what we are.
No discipline is pleasant at the time, but is necessary for the development of our character.
God disciplines whom He loves. [Hebrews 12]

It finally dawned on me, that our heavenly father is literally raising children!

I had a kitten once, a female, which I thought I had to house train.. the whole litter box thing.. I'm afraid I got a little strict and frustrated over it.. well, I'll tell you, that cat turned out to be the meanest cat I ever saw! :doh: congratulations are not in order..

Then later I got another kitten, another female, and I decided to just let that kitten grow and learn as she would - just some slight discipline if she started batting around my houseplants :mshock: :laughing7:

Now this cat agreed with the litter box right away, I just put it there.. And she is the sweetest, most playful and happiest cat I've ever seen!

Now this got me to thinking about God's ways of dealing with sins, some of them atrocious, in the Old Testament.. and the way my mind works is to think that a part of that is to prove how ineffective it is!

What I'm saying is it would be, I suppose, an option to give thinking ability and then a strict fencing in by the rules, the all important do's and do not's.. So how did it work out? not so well. And I feel that is very well proven..
    :dontknow: just some thoughts.. :gsmile:

Quote from: whatistruth on July 29, 2017, 10:24:07 AM
The problem is, not everyone is a son but everyone is punished.

You can see the 3nd message about what I mean.

Except that,

Because of the disease and troubles he gives me, we are like enemies with him. I am doing many sins under the influence of what I have disease and sadness. I mean, it is not something that adds discipline or virtue. these do not create anything other than hatred in me.

Thanks for answers.

Aha! I am thinking, dear one, that you cannot break free of these negative thoughts and judgments because of things you are suffering..

Well, that makes a lot of sense.. Of course, we can not break free of the things that bind us, without His (loving) help..

In my battles with the adversary/minions I would feel literally quite beaten up from time to time.. Did God allow it? yes.. but it was fruit.. fruit of my own patterns of thinking - one of the things I needed rescue from.. how the rescue? by the renewing by the Word.. does the gravelly voice of the adversay make His Word into something it's not? I think it does! I used to also read into God's Word condemnation... against me. It's not against me, it's against wrongness. Not personal! NOt all about me.. the liar compounds the idea.. beats us up with it.. But it is not personal, not in the sense of 'condemnation'. NOt at all...

He was not being rough with me, the adversary was and I was.. the adversary uses, you guessed it, us (against our self). "Who will deliver me from this body of sin" error..

He will, but I have to align myself with Him.. psalm 91, John 15.. etc.. (Even in psalm 91, "only with your eyes will you see the destruction of the wicked, it will not come nigh you" - does He DO the destruction of the wicked? In a very real sense yes, because He is life and well, that law/Him, is in everything.. will he take pleasure and be happy when it's accomplished? No more wicked oppressions and cruelty? you bet he's looking forward to that.. (no more ads, commercials, and billboards? :banana: :banana: :banana: )

Example - Did God split the atom and such and make all this global fiery judgment possible? No, man split the atom. (imo, R 13:13; seal 6; the long sword of seal 2; the pause of 7:1; Ezekiel?)

Example too - is God destroying the foundation of culture and society (the breakdown of the family) which causes much instability and suffering? No, man (male and female :smile: ) is doing that..

Our thoughts develop into patterns and habits, deep neuron paths in our frontal lobe (? :dontknow: seems like the frontal lobe to me)

My burned pathways of thought caused stress.. til I got to the point of feeling like I was being beat (spiritually) by two by fours about the head and shoulders.. and gut..

I had a veRy rough human upbringing. Did Gd do it? No. He's the one who called.. led me out.. and healed me..

Rationality includes "choice". All is forgiven, but not (in my experience) a magic wand.. there are still effects within our heart and mind to deal with. I'm thinking that's what it means (in the Revelation letters) to be an overcomer.. and is why there is the verse "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" - after a bit it becomes with awe and delightful trembling (at His Word and Spirit).

Like Eaglesway said (I need a key emoti :smile: ) satan and adversaries cannot follow you into the secret place you have (or develop) with Him. :thumbsup: "God is love" "GOd is light and in Him is no darkness at all" "God tempts no man"-which to me, says God did not create satan AS the adversary, even tho he has been a liar and murderer - he tries to kill us - from the beginning (of this world, that God did engineer, let his rebellion fully mature b4 creating the universe and man and woman)

Dang! I wanted to a short and sweet response.. :doh:

I guess I am thinking of how I have learned that to give in - okay, let me start over, one day I was in a temper.. my son when in high school shop class had made a footstool which he gave to me and I rather very much liked it. But one day, arguing with him - he was veRy strong willed.. oh dear.. well I picked up the footstool and then let it drop.. breaking it. And he never repaired it.. (just lazy I think).

But I lost the footstool it lay broken. Dang it! At that moment I realized. "Did God do that?" or even the adversary? No, I did that. Soon I recognized those negative patterns of thinking which would pile up and bring oppression and sufferings.. stress.. illness.. (stress is a maJoR source of illness) - Got so I could recognize those thoughts.. X them out and replace them with positive, praise and thanksgiving thoughts.

Did my mental atmosphere clear up miraculously and instantaneously? No.. but I got better and better at it until I can recognize the tiny buds of a negative thought and I do NOT give into to them anymore.. I let myself be free... I let myself be happy.. should I decline and head toward death.. which I guess we all are! well, there's no sense bringing it on early!

...my :2c: anyway.. and experiences and learning.. Not sure it makes sense.. I used to write myself a list and notes to not forget these things. NO negative thought. None. From God all good things originate. He engineered this life's journey and I am thankful for it. Because I do want to be a rational, able to think and reason child of His and not remain a very young child only or some sort of robototron. (Is that a word? :laughing7: )

God bless you, Whatistruth.. I do surely pray you will find your way out of these negative bars of the mind and life.. :Pray: :Pray: :Pray:
you're in my thoughts.. feel free to private message me any time if you'd like.. take care.. I pray you have a nice and a peaceful day.. :HeartThrob:

PSS - of course God can miraculously heal of us of all things instantaneously if that's the best thing for us and if we have the faith.. :thumbsup:

..another case in point I was thinking just now.. in the garden of Eden, when God told woman that man would rule over her (dominate her) most seem (to me) to thing it was like God decided.. lets see what kind of curse/punishment should I place on her?

But I tend to think it was more like.. man is stronger, the world (imperfection come about) will tend to dog eat dog.. er, yes man, being stronger is sure to come to dominate woman (until Christianity/Christendom, for a time, took most of that away.. some men are gentlemen.. but of course not all are yet). [One day all our sufferings, aches, pains, bills, even horrors, will be hardly remembered.. except praise God they remain as a solid lesson of good from evil, so as rational, able to think and reason children of God, we can reason according to HIS will! 'Forever' or that is, age unto age, unto age.. the smoke of all destructions/proof, rising up in our consciousness for ever and ever..] selah..

Thanks for the long post. I guess, The time has come to open up myself to you. (little more)

Firstly, My disease turned my life into a prison. My situation has been lately turned more bad.

For example, If I see something bad in the news, I think for days.

If someone talks about a issue and If I hear they, Immediately the god comes to my mind. Verses are coming. If the subject is something that disturbs my conscience, I'm running the mind program right away (involuntarily) And I immediately start blaming the god.

I fought with him many times. Then I regret it. Again, I fought with him and I regret it...Again, again... and  I quit anymore..  Every my cell is getting away from god. There's nothing I can do about it.
Sometimes, I can not stay in very spoken environments. Because, It may come attack at any moment.  That is, a very small word can hang out in my mind.

One midnight, I had a verse in mind. A bad verse. İt made me as a slave until morning.

While my hands are between my hair, I  was saying, Shut up, Shut up ! Go away! Go away!

Second, There is a life I have to live unintentionally.I will not tell you the details of this now.

But this environment is causing me to fight more God. Everywhere I see injustice my brains are starting to talk. When I see people who are unhappy because of me, my brains are starting to talk, " They are all the guilt of God! He allows all this! People are treating each other badly because of this world that he has created! Your relationships with your loved ones are broken because god allowed other gods to become!

İt was true.

"I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "  Why???

It's a pity to the others, is not it?  I will suffer for believing in him. The others will be judged for distressing me. Why ? Just because they own their own beliefs! Then why did it create faith separation? Why do some people have to be judged because of others? I do not blame them anymore. I too made them upset cause my own belief. Most people do it.
And as I live these fights I start to blame the god again. I dont want this. But I can not stop.

I sometimes thinking that my love ones will go to hell because I am a hopeful universalist. Sometimes I think that I will go to eternal death. Because, not everyone is a god child...

It makes everything worse.

One day, I was putting everything in the right place. But I read verses in the bible. (Deuteronomy and much more) My accusations increased more. Now I know that the cause of everything is god. As I continue to think like that,  my relationship will never improve with god. Because,  bad things are happening and will continue to happen.

I prayed constantly. I went to the churchs. I used holy water. I waited. But...

As I was getting better, there were always new attacks. God does not allow me to heal.

Again, I tried to look for something good in this disease. But I saw this says of God,

"  You will do it, I will perish! "   "There is no peace" "Builds a house can not live there."    "You'll do it, I'll ruin it."
And much more... Yes, it was true. When i'm ok i do not mind... Again my pains increased exponentially.

I still apologize to God because I thoughts.

Actually, I have a lot to say. But my words are inadequate.

Thank you Whatistruth, for sharing.. my thoughts are "is anything too hard for God?" ..."with God all things are possible" and of course, "God is love"

Now before I lose you and the negative voices pipe in - cause I'm thinking this is what happens.. the negative thoughts rise up.. come and argue.. you can, if you truly believe in Jesus as the Son of God and God's representative and ambassador.. you can order any negative thought, idea and voice away in the name of Jesus, any time they show up.. peacefully assertive with faith..

When I would think a negative thought, I would mentally place 3 large X's over the thought and replace it with "thank you Jesus" or "praise you Lord" or "I love you Lord"... If I couldn't do that I simply prayed.. right during the fray "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus..." - it aLways works.

Why read Deuteronomy? Or any of the Old Testament if it causes troublous thoughts and feelings? It's the feelings, that capture us. You can live a perfectly good Christian (believer/follower's) life without the Old Testament.

I also often employ, "ignore it and it will go away" :laughing7: yes, that sometimes works also. The negatives come.. Bah!.. they're not real.. (I tried that with my bills though and that didn't work as well.. no I'm kidding!!)

God loves you! He really does.. We get all tied up in knots and he tries to unravel it all, but we fight and struggle and won't let him.. I used to hear the saying a lot - "Let go and let God".. There's a lot to be said for that! (Our struggling hinders His hands. Like we're all tied up with ropes, but our struggling keeps Him from being able to undo the knots! "Let go".. rest in Him.. just rest.. "let God" - ultimately, we will one day be on His shores, as the saying goes.. oh yes, we will ALL arrive there safely. Meanwhile thank and praise the Lord, for "The Lord is righteous, He has cut asunder the cords of the wicked." I think its good to put yourself in His hands.)

Jesus is "the exAct representation of God's character and being" - So read about Jesus.. And remember! He did not raise His voice, it says.. and His criticisms were for religious leaders who somewhat abused others and kept other folks from knowing God.. intentionally! - or so I think anyway.. It was their power and cushy seats which mattered to them, not being God's servants to bless others.

Oh yes satan's representatives try to yell scripture at us.. "resist the devil and he will flee from you."

God can do anything.. give it all to him.. every day, over and over if need be.. YOU may not be able.. none of us are!! but He ab-so-lute-ly is.
:girlheart: :dsunny:

PS - I think it's good to remember when reading the New Testament letters (epistles) ..to remember the context.. Paul, and others were writing letters to particular churches.. and in a day when false Christianity was asserting itself in the faith! And part of some of these (gnostic/pagan) groups included falling back into those very errors Jesus died to save us from! And which curses He suffered for us! (And others were imposing rules, whereas Jesus said I give a new commandment, love".)

Context.. we're kind of taught it's all about us, but it's not.. Even tho we are "the big doorprize" (in the words of John Prine songwriter, singer)
:Peace2:

"I will not rest until I find a place for my God" ...in our heart, life, days.. (Ps.)

You know what? Those "12 step" books are kind of nice.. very mellow. If you ever come across one in a thrift store.. tho they're getting scarce.

I think each one of us, Whatistruth, has to learn to discern the voice of the Lord from that other gravelly(?) accusing, threatening, etc voice.

The Lord's voice, I think, we hear best in the quietness (and peace).

"..rest in the Lord oh my soul.."

God bless! have a good day! :smile:

Dear Marie, thank you so much for writing. As you say, I will write you a PM.

For now, I just say that,  I don't want to read psalms. I realized that,  bad things is much more.

Please continue to pray. Everyone.

G'day.. sorry I forgot I was going to look up the verses you quoted.. this turned out sort of long, so I've divided it by lines.. and of course you needn't read it all at once :gsmile:

Quote
İt is my struggle against non-universal verses.

But! judgment like we read.. destruction, ruin.. is earthly.. happens during THIS life.. Not in an immortal afterlife of punishment lasting for ever and ever... (therefore, it is corrective, as "all in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus" Col 1:20 & Eph 1:10)

Verses in context:

Proverbs 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you.
Context:
10 My son, if sinners entice you,
Do not consent.
11 If they say, "Come with us,
Let us lie in wait to shed blood;
Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause;
12 Let us swallow them alive like Sheol,[the grave]
And whole, like those who go down to the Pit [the grave];
13 We shall find all kinds of precious possessions,
We shall fill our houses with spoil;
14 Cast in your lot among us,
Let us all have one purse"—
15 My son, do not walk in the way with them,
Keep your foot from their path;
16 For their feet run to evil,
And they make haste to shed blood...
24 ...I have called and you refused..
26 I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when what you dread comes,
27 When your terror comes like a storm,
And your own destruction comes like a whirlwind...

Summary - those frauding, and robbing others, oppressing and spilling blood of others, will reap what they sow.. Should it be different? Murder of people makes me indignant and I'm not Creator, ruler, sustainer..

------------------------------------------------

Psalms 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them.
 Context:
   The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed..
...4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
Summary - making war with God Almighty is laughable..

-------------------------------

Quote
And,  I do not see the correction when I read these parts. (deuteronomy 28 -  Actually, There are many parts )
I see a cruel revenge. Or Justice.
Almost, The punishment is the same as the crime. Or It is more horrible.

Deut 28:63 Just as the LORD has found great pleasure in causing you to prosper and multiply, the LORD will find pleasure in destroying you. You will be torn from the land you are about to enter and occupy.
( A second question about it, - At the beginning of these verses rape is mentioned. Adults and children punishment. So, Does god enjoy a child's rape (or a adult rape) ?
I hope you can help me solve these verses. Thank you.

Context:
1.  "Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. 2 And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God..
7 "The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before your face; they shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.
8 "The Lord will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand
[Verses 3-6 "Blessed shall be.."]
15 "But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God..
[16-19 - "Cursed shall you be.."]
RESULTS OF WAYWARDNESS / LAW OF SIN AND DEATH / NATURAL LAW -- nations which, for instance are / were into voodoo, the results are not blessings - 30 "You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall lie with her; you shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but shall not gather its grapes. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat of it; your donkey shall be violently taken away from before you, and shall not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you shall have no one to rescue them. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, and your eyes shall look and fail with longing for them all day long; and there shall be no strength in your hand. 33 A nation whom you have not known shall eat the fruit of your land and the produce of your labor, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually."
53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you. [PROPHECY of what will happen/happens]

All such is earthly / upon Earth and as a culmination of this life.. like Obadiah 16 says, "your own doings will return upon your own head"

------------------------------------

Job 9:23 When a sudden disaster brings death, he makes fun of the despair of innocent people.
Context: (Job is speaking.. being bitter.)
verse 2 - "..how can a man be in the right before God?"
9. He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades,
And the chambers of the south;
10 He does great things past finding out,
Yes, wonders without number.
11 If He goes by me, I do not see Him;
If He moves past, I do not perceive Him;
12 ...Who can say to Him, 'What are You doing?'
Job says "16 If I called and He answered me,
I would not believe that He was listening to my voice.
For He crushes me with a tempest,
And multiplies my wounds without cause.
18 He will not allow me to catch my breath,
But fills me with bitterness." - this Job ruminates -
but 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 12 And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."

Elsewhere the bible says "should we receive only good from the LORD and not evil?" (Without His intervention life would become total evil.)

Job says - 21 "..I despise my life.
22 It is all one thing;
Therefore I say, 'He destroys the blameless and the wicked.'
23 If the scourge slays suddenly,
He laughs at the plight of the innocent.

Summary - Job is being bitter, spouting words..
-----------------------------------------------------------

Quote
"When God judges the wicked, it is for the purpose of correcting them"   Who is them?

..the wicked ...not everyone is YET sons (the Greek is male and female)

Romans 2:5 - "But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment (results?) for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed."

Context:
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds"

- sounds fair to me..

But! Christ took our 'punishment' (results) upon Himself.. "According to your faith, so be it."

Quote
2 Chronicles 21:16 - Moreover the Lord stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines and the Arabians who were near the Ethiopians.

In Context:
4 Now when Jehoram was established over the kingdom of his father, he strengthened himself and killed all his brothers with the sword, and also others of the princes of Israel. ..and he did evil in the sight of the Lord.

----------------------------------------

Revelation 6:10
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Context: - the blood of martyrs, like the blood of Abel, cries out to God.. sounds logical to me..

Luke 18:7
7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? Hebrews 11 says people of God have been murdered and tortured.. We're taught, these days, to have pity for the criminals and torturers. God, it seems, doesn't see it that way..

Quote
People are happy that god has provided justice. Not for them to correction.

If all are saved - "God is the savior of all" 1 Timothy 4:10 - then ultimately it all is teaching and correcting.. and experience is said to be the BEST teacher..

Jeremiah 9:24 - But let him who glories glory in this,
That he understands and knows Me,
That I am the Lord, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth.
For in these I delight," says the Lord. - Otherwise anarchy? and utter lawlessness and oppressions, etc..

"In the beginning... behold, it was all good.." so why is life as it is? :Chinscratch: :Peace2: :girlheart:

P.S. - how can there be life with never any suffering? i.e. and avoid life as we presently know it? But here's the rub, the dilemma.. and still create rational (able to think and reason) creatures? How?

How can an un-breakable paradise be created? Inhabited by living, able to think and reason creatures..

An exercise? How would you do it? ( :laughing7: :Peace2: )

Thank you for your explanation. I must say first that,

I am already read the context. I just don't write all here.  I had investigated the verses I asked. I asking here, when I can't find a solution.

For this reason, I have the answers you wrote. I guess, I'm asking a little different.

For example,

" 2 Chronicles 21:16 - Moreover the Lord stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines and the Arabians who were near the Ethiopians.
In Context:
4 Now when Jehoram was established over the kingdom of his father, he strengthened himself and killed all his brothers with the sword, and also others of the princes of Israel. ..and he did evil in the sight of the Lord. "

Yes. I know. Cause they are doing evil. What I'm wondering that is,

- Does god triggers the evil within man?  And, God sends israelites other nations and punishes them.
He tells they how much evil is going to be among other nations.  Maybe the persons is bad. But, God add sin to other nations' sins to punish israel. !?
God punish David. For this, he uses his sons. A lot of people are sinning and suffering during punishment.  Maybe, They had other sins but it would not be added other. -

I cant know,does a person is really treat me badly or Is god provoking him?

Other thing,

"RESULTS OF WAYWARDNESS / LAW OF SIN AND DEATH / NATURAL LAW"

I see. You are right. But, what I'm wondering that is,

Why are others punished for my guilt? And, Why an unborn child is being punished?

I can write many verses about it. But, I guess, these verses are already enough.

Other thing,

Romans 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

As always is said, if every crime requires punishment, why is it patience?
(Exodus 34:7 and your 3nd Context ) Of course, there are many verses.

For other answers and more, I will write later. thank you for your interested.

I think people do their own evil, etc.

I think the whole problem is, or that is, began, when God created beings that could think. He knew this of course. And built in also the solution. Why did He wait and create man and woman after Lucifer's rebellion?

I'm thinking so all would take this unavoidable journey and lesson, altogether at once. Otherwise each person and angels would wander away from God in their own time taking virtually forever to run itself out. Unavoidable if we are to be thinking able to reason beings.

Surely thinking ability includes being able to make choices.. so.. life exactly as it is.

If you were God, how would you make a forever unbreakable paradise? Is it paradise if his children are simply fully programmed to agree with God in every teeny tiny way..? With no thinking about any of it?
:Peace2: "God is light. And in Him is no darkness at all." 1 John 5?

P.S. - All I can tell you, is what works for me. This is what I think and what I apply to myself.

If God is life.. the life force, all of it, then he is weaved throughout all of life. When anyone does something not good, it is natural that life respond.

God cannot turn himself off.. (Though now He has in Jesus.) He warns and warns and warns. How amazing that we're all going to come out of this intact, because imperfection is a downward spiral. And the downward spiral cannot reverse its course.

Satan, I know, is the spirit of judging God, and he broadcasts this all over, along with many other untruths.

"Work out my reconciliation with God with reverence and awe."

God is Love and Life, and also Perfection. Any idea that doesn't align with that, cannot be true, but is a lie, so I don't heed or listen to it. (Life is difficult enough already! :thumbsup: )

...for me, information is key.. Truth sets free, gives joy. And peace.. :Pray:

Quote from: marie glen on August 03, 2017, 04:39:49 PM
I think people do their own evil, etc.

I can not be sure of that. I wrote some reasons and verses. I will add one,

2.Samuel 16:10-11 But the king said, "What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? If he is cursing because the LORD said to him, 'Curse David,' who can ask, 'Why do you do this?'David then said to Abishai and all his officials, "My son, my own flesh and blood, is trying to kill me. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the LORD has told him to.

There can be a lot of meaning in this verse. Apart from what is already open meaning (except someone curse him), Absalom's will to kill him, is seen as the guidance of God.

There are many verses similar to this. Strictly, It is not possible to think that God will not seduce.

Quote from: marie glen on August 03, 2017, 04:43:02 PM
God is Love and Life, and also Perfection. Any idea that doesn't align with that, cannot be true, but is a lie, so I don't heed or listen to it. (Life is difficult enough already! :thumbsup: )

It is not the same as what he said with what God has done.

Maybe this is the difference between us. You choose not to hear, thus you are comfortable. I see too much reality and verses, thus I am thinking that way.  God forgive me.

Thank you.

Hi whatistruth

I believe God deals with man directly and indirectly. Sometimes he uses others to carry out his plan.  This is just one example. God uses Satan also.

We can think reason and plan all we want but as I see it, this is the way it is.  (Prov. 16:1) The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.  (Prov. 16:9) A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

CHB

Hi CHB. Thank you so much. 

I should say all this based,  Everything looks like a puppet of God.

If he hadn't given punish his provoked people, I would have understand him acting so that. But no.

Firstly, God harden their hearts. And then, he punishes them for not hearing the warning.
He knows that we will commit sin nevertheless he's testing.
He reveals the evil within the human. Sometimes, He provokes them.
Sometimes looks like he forces for evil.  He drags to sin cause punish others or discipline others.
And most bad thing, He makes that's himself, he punishes people.

Why does god causing evil instead of revealing the good in people?
( You can also look at the examples in other my messages. )

God tells us not to provoke people but he does it himself. God does not do, a lot of things he tells us.  I can write verses if you want.

Other thing,

God gave to peoples deep sleep  in order for David to pass safely through the road.

Why doesn't he using the power to infringe free will for blocking a rape instead of these ?

And,  For this reason, İt had been at the top of universalist logic,

"God told us to love the enemies. Then he will love and save his enemies. "

That is why I have difficulty believing that God will save everyone. He tells us, he doesn't do himself.

I guess, I'm right to think all of that. Because, "It is not the same as what he said with what God has done."
(  If I'm still a hopeful universalist, this is because of you (all) )

Maybe he is doing what he told us. We misunderstood his. Maybe, Really is not totally good. Maybe Its standards of goodness are different.

Last things,

I realized there were so many people like me. 

Some of them rejected the Old Testament because they have very bad things.
Some of them tried to relieve himself by finding explanations that were not there.
Some of them chose to ignore it. Some of them completely rejected to the god.

I don't know what will happen to me but It 's so hard to love such a bad god.

Just think whatistruth, there will come a time when all of this will be no more  and you will understand what good and evil is all about. Paul said "I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" Rom. 8:18. What do we have here, 70 maybe 80 years in the flesh, what will be hereafter? No end.  :banana:

My advice is, ask God to show you his plan for mankind. If you truly want to know he will show you. Jesus said to ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and ye shall find.

CHB

Thank you CHB.

All this makes sense if universalism is true. Even so, 80 years is a very long time for someone who is really suffering.
(And, The pain will continue beyond the grave.)

Even then, the personality of the god may disturb the people. If we can not trust God, it may not be possible to be happy with it in eternal heaven.

You think,  there is a bad image of God in your mind. He has been unjust in this world. He did evil, etc...  Wouldn't you be uncomfortable, even after you've been died?

Except that,

What if a man hates God in his soul? Because of the reason they bad live, or because of another reason ?!



And, Sometimes I do not understand, Wouldn't it be a world without pain? Why do we have to experience it?  What happens to infant and handicapped ?

Will not it be perfection already in heaven?   "It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye "


Romans 8:18...   :sigh:

I had found consolation with this verse once upon a time. But as long as I live and my thoughts get heavy, I didn't see this verse. Also, I began to think that this verse does not apply to everyone.
And,  As I said in my previous message, I have a god image that prevents me from becoming a universalist.

Some people say, " If God is not universalist, If god is not this, that, it..."   I guess, everyone has a bargain.

Some people say,
" If God is not universalist, I don't even want his take me to paradise "   Rebellion is bad for god. Maybe it's good intentions. Maybe this is something stupid in god eye.  I don't know what to say.  But,

They give up from heaven just because he didn't save people they never knew... 

( If this is a bad thing in the god eyes, forgive me )  But...

This is amazing !  This is love with no thought of personal gain!   I saw it only in universalist persons. So they expect the god to be such.

I just share my thoughts. 

I hope, "According to your faith, so be it "

When I said "what will be hereafter? No end". I meant no end of immorality, no more pain, suffering, sorrow.  I don't know exactly what it will be like but I do know it will all be good.

CHB

I know.

I usually say what verses tell whereas I must say a part of my own thought,

There are many situation and people waiting to be compensate. Maybe they worship other gods maybe they are sinning and maybe they are suffering ...
it doesn't matter.  Everybody's,  should be compensated for even one drop of tears. ( Even if they are crying for something unnecessary ) We are in this world because of him.

If God doesn't think like that, let forgive me. But...  I can't settle for less than that, anymore.

Quote from: CHB on August 05, 2017, 05:44:05 PM
No end.  :banana:

İt is so cute  :friendstu:  Never lose your joy!


Thank you for everything  :girlheart:

I wasthinking two things.. not every thing every bible character says, when it is quoted as them saying it - like David saying the LORD told his son to do so.. David said that. David was human.

And I was thinking, whatistruth, you may want to be sure of sticking with bibles like the Good News Bible.. or at the very least a New International Version.

I'm thinking people are not puppets, if they were, there would be nothing negative anywhere because "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all"

God can only be perfect, or He too would fade. Your same thoughts will not let go of you, this judging of God.. that's okay.. ultimately aLL will bend the knee.. Even if all are not able to love God now.. they certainly will later, when His glorious wonderfulness will come to fill all people and angels.. and animals.. and fill all things.. (no more the opposite of dog eat dog/self-ish-ness/bottomless pit of potential darkness and wrongness).

But!! We all need be warned!! He is purity and im-purity in His presence cannot be.. cannot live. Period. It's impossible. Now if He tells this to man in all levels of speaking.. From to the most depraved and barbaric ones, to the ones fully in love with Him (which none of us are as of yet!).. Well.. I would suppose that to be necessary, if he wants to be heard by all (eventually).

So if he IS life.. And also Perfection.. which HE is - "be ye perfect as your father in heaven is Perfect" - then you see the problem, yes? (If He is both Life, aNd Perfection.)

:Pray: Keeping you in my prayers dear one.. dearly beloved of the LORD.

The teaching that God directly made Satan&co to be evil and to do evil, and that God does, and or inspires, all acts of evil, cannot be true. Look at its fruit! Would we not all be baskets of pieces to believe such a thing? I'm sure I would be.

BUT! To endow thinking ability to angel and man...

What then? What is/was bound to happen?? Sooner or later. Therefor (surely?) He engineered things to happen just as they have in order to bring about... A. the worst creation possible;  ...B. the best creation possible..  or perhaps C; anarchy.. utter anarchy, with all things fading for they are im-Perfect, the opposite of Life, which IS God. (imho)

And you know what? Even should He slaughter us all in one moment of he can't take it any more - he's going to raise all to wondrous life wherein this life will come to seem like a mere moment. But which obviously He hasn't, but is still putting up with this horrible man's world we have made (til it self implodes)..  :doh: How does He do it!? (Especially BEING life.. oiye.. no relief for Him, He gets to LIVE through it ALL. YO!!(!?!) Why(?) would he put Himself through allll that...? :sigh:
    :girlheart:

P.S - it's blessed to be alive.. to exist.. and it is also blessed to cry big hot tears of sorrow.. not just for ourself but for this world and for all things wrong.. (and blessed that we do weep.. for if there were no tears. no wrong.. there would be no us.. but we would only be nonthinking entities.. or at the best infant like.. forever. (Yuck, no wonder HE is not settling for that. :laughing7: ) ..and I meant all wrong things, done by man or angel, for He does NO wrong. Ever.

Thank you for everything dear marie   :girlheart:

I am just thinking...

Those who wrote it are always human.
If we do not believe this verses,  How will we believe other verses?

Again david says,

"All nations will worship the lord"

though, sometimes I do not understand what david said. He say other verse,

" lord destroy them "  "This is a lasting love for us but not for another ..."    anyway...

I still think that way.

I can show you a lot of verses about how does god made us puppets... But,

CHB wrote,  Provebs 16:1 - 16:9

These two verses already tell everything.

Maybe, he make me say these.

Which means that my bad words and behaviors can be his work.
For this reason I can not trust God.

When I trust him, he show me bad verses. It looks like he's playing with me.

It is bad enough to know that it is always from God when people (and me) behave badly.
Or,  think constantly about who made it... ?!    Thinking like that is a lot of torture.  I don't know what to do.

I give up!  :sigh:

Giving up just may be key.. give up and only let God is what they say.. "let go and let God"

I will continue to keep you in my prayers :HeartThrob: :girlheart:

Already,There are a lot of creature that want me to be bad. (included human )

Already he created a lot of creatures for this job.

On top of that, Why is he doing this job himself?

OMG!  There is nobody who can trust just want my goodness! in the huge universe !

Last Thing,

People sometimes say, "He did not create bad creatures"

He, who manages what people say, he will not manage that?

The god who set up perfect plans to punish man when necessary, Can not it prevent a rape,  rebellion,  War,  sadness, bad behaviour, people hate him..  etc ?

For this reason, I can not agree with this argument.

Thanks to everyone who helped me until this time. Please forgive me for my mistakes.

Did God split the atom?

I would say no.

You would (I believe :laughing7: ) say ..but he made man capable of doing it and so He is indeed the one who did it.

And I would say, that is why there is Universal Reconciliation.

(...yet I believe God engineered the fall and evil.. it being inevitable.. taking control of it, doing all things as he has in order to bring about the best..)
:Peace2:

I'm not saying just for the things that he allows. I'm talking about his do evil.

Also, this is not related to universalism. It is entirely related to the personality of God.

If god has a bad personality, can we be happy in heaven with it ..?  I'm not sure.

People sometimes do not like him because of his personality. (or things his did... )  In this world, a person who moves away from him is more sinful.  He allows them.  Then he will punish them.  I'm getting away from him because of him.

Moreover, because of the verses I am not yet a universalist.

Dear my sister Marie  :HeartThrob:

I hopefully, always god is with you. I wish,  I could be as fine as you. I cant standing, against these verses and this evil world.

I apologize from god and all of you for my mistakes.

I don't want to squeeze anyone anymore. Thanks for eveything to everyone!

Thank you very much for enduring me.

Quote from: whatistruth on July 26, 2017, 08:17:08 PM
Thanks for  answer and advices. I will.

In fact, I sometimes get confused cause what I read so much.

For example, You said,  "When God judges the wicked, it is for the purpose of correcting them"   Who is them?

Hebrews 12:6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,  and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son

Proverbs 1:16 For whom the Lord loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights

Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent

2.samuel 7:14-15 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands.  But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

and many verses.

God is making a distinction in this verses. Loves and son ones.  If everyone had his son, (or everyone had his loves) he would not make these distinctions.  Everyone is punished. But not everyone is a son and everyone is not punished for correction.

And, There is only this verse in relation to the god's love of all. John 3:16
And this verse has many opposition. There are too many appeals. And It is not as clear as the verses that say that everybody is not a son and object of love.

And,  I do not see the correction when I read these parts. (deuteronomy 28 -  Actually, There are many parts )
I see a cruel revenge. Or Justice.
Almost, The punishment is the same as the crime. Or It is more horrible.

Sometimes I believe that God loves everybody and disciplines everybody to correction.  I'm so happy.
Then I read the bible, and I see that it is not real. My head is confused.

I hope you can help me solve these verses. Thank you.

great questions !...the Bible is a big book and not 100% easy to understand....as Eaglesway said, it's best to ponder the 'merciful' verses and keep them in mind when reading the 'harsh' and 'hard' verses...and, above all, come to know, in a deeper and deeper way, the sweetness of Jesus love.

Quote from: whatistruth on August 08, 2017, 05:29:44 PM
!

Thank you very much for enduring me.

we are not 'enduring' you...you are a treasure !..and you raise some valid points and pertinent questions !...keep searching and praying...you'll find the answer. :gimmefive:

Thank you so much dear darrly.  :dsunny:

Yes.  You're right. Big book and great questions and as a result of these, a life that has turned into a nightmare.

I reading and writing on a language I don't know almost every day. My eyes became like 'Furby'.  My brothers and sisters who tried to help me became almost FBI agents to correctly understand what I wrote.   :laughing7:
If these aren't search to god then what are these I can't know.

Thank you for the nice words.You made me feel good.

Because of my illness and my thoughts if I think that this feeling is rare, You should get a prize for you have me feel good. Just like other my sisters and my brothers..

Thank you for writing. Do not forget to pray for me. God bless you.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: whatistruth on August 09, 2017, 10:26:16 AM
Thank you so much dear darrly.  :dsunny:

Yes.  You're right. Big book and great questions and as a result of these, a life that has turned into a nightmare.

I reading and writing on a language I don't know almost every day. My eyes became like 'Furby'.  My brothers and sisters who tried to help me became almost FBI agents to correctly understand what I wrote.   :laughing7:
If these aren't search to god then what are these I can't know.

Thank you for the nice words.You made me feel good.

Because of my illness and my thoughts if I think that this feeling is rare, You should get a prize for you have me feel good. Just like other my sisters and my brothers..

Thank you for writing. Do not forget to pray for me. God bless you.  :HeartThrob:

I will pray for you...and you pray for me too !...we are all on the Road of Discovery !....blessing, brother !. :dsunny: