“For the destruction of the flesh”

marie glen · October 14, 2018, 04:30:40 PM

As we know, in Paul's first letter to the Corinthian believers, he addressed the believer who was having relations with his stepmother. Paul told the church to hand this one over to Satan so his flesh can be destroyed! So his spirit be saved in the day of the LORD.

Most commentaries agree, this was a banning a person out of the church. There being the two worlds, church and non-church.

Now the ET belief seems to prefer to think of this as hell.. and that Satan is to be the ruler of an afterlife torment pit or cavern, gleefully burning souls alive forever in flames of undying agony. Turning them over with his pitchfork!

But.. what about this in Paul's second letter?
- So instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. - 2 Cor. 2:6-11 (in context).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+2%3A6-11&version=NLT

I don't believe pitchfork is mentioned anywhere in the scriptures :laughing7: Even the verse "winnowing or threshing the wheat" would be more of a tossing the wheat into the air that the chaff blow away.. ..And then maybe, in order to make fine flour, grinding it with a stone? And baking a nourishing loaf of bread which fills the home with warmth and a very pleasant aroma?

Ross · October 15, 2018, 04:06:19 AM

Also Paul makes an interesting correction style for a couple of men;

1 Tim 1;20 " Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander,
whom I have delivered over to Satan so that they might be taught through punishment not to blaspheme."

I.M.O seems to suggest Satan can punish every little thing we do wrong.
Hence can accuse us from sins of our families, generations, work colleagues, theological ideas, words- basically any thought or action which is sin.
Since he was a liar from the beginning, this seems to point out he is doing his job.

Fortunately;
1 John 4;4 " Little children, you have been born of God and have overcome them,
because greater is the one who is in you than the one who is in the world."

marie glen · October 15, 2018, 10:57:50 PM

For sure.. if we are being disobedient how would we figure God's shield to be round about us?

This is interesting, thanks.

1 Timothy 1
18 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 2
14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

It seems Hymenaeus was causing some real trouble.. and wrong doctrine can result in being caught in the snare of the enemy - (that's why I 'worry' about Et believers and the troublous times prophesied as a snare, beyond the snare of teaching that makes people go astray/not able to believe).

CST · October 17, 2018, 12:48:37 PM

Another thing that makes me doubt me doubt that Satan is an actual supernatural agency in rebellion against God. Because that agency, wouldn't 'punish' the sinful that was turned over to him, and to be honest already seemed to be in strong obedience, he would put them to further use in trying to vanquish God.

marie glen · October 17, 2018, 05:15:09 PM

I think the "handing over to satan" is merely idiom for a time of excommunication.. :gsmile:

CST · October 17, 2018, 07:16:43 PM

I'd say the same (although I used to think it meant execution, 'destruction of the flesh' sounds very bad) but then it reduces the literal use of the name 'Satan', perhaps another time it should be translated 'adversary'. We keep doing that and soon enough Satan will vanish from the Bible the same way Hell is doing.

marie glen · October 17, 2018, 10:27:44 PM

I totally disagree! :laughing7: :Peace2:

I think every horrible thing that's ever been done, be it by man alone, or with a little encouragement from dark entities which roam the earth (I thought a little drama would be fun) seeking whom to devour, will never be forgotten.. but will be like smoke that rises up unto duration.. Otherwise how would we understand the true horror of oppression? If it never occurred. And seriously, if God just waited for man, alone, to destroy himself.. I wonder how long it would take? :dontknow: Maybe that's not a valid point.. After all, He interfered with Babel Tower lest nothing be beyond them.. all working together as they were.. and that to me strongly suggests self destruction.. it just seems to me that's how we roll.

But I think God is teaching the angels too. You know. That they too are part of the drama. Do you believe there are angels? I know in the Greek the word is messengers, and Paul says they are flames of fire as messengers.. :Chinscratch: fire.. truth burns?

I just believe there is a being who is the adversary. because it seems to me to be what the Bible says.

The first to wander out of God's will, which I believe all are bound to do ...and it could take a very long long time couldn't it, if God didn't engineer things in such a way as to speed things along, namely the involvement of angels in what surely (?) is this truth proving drama?

It just seems to me - beyond quoting scripture which we've done, that if you have disobedience, one of the possibilities is oppressions and abuses. So to me, that men/women and spiritual beings oppress, plot, etc. to me, just seems inevitable.

Isn't imperfection a bottomless pit of potentiality? And how are we to learn and fully understand that? If it is not "allowed". And why wouldn't angelic beings revolt? And say they want to be like God (deciding good and evil). Isn't that what man is doing? Do we really think that work of genius (lol) called the theory of evolution, came fully from the mind of man? The adversary's been at this for a long time. Can you see what a totally "strong delusion" it is? That and 'hell'? How are some particular delusions so - very - strong ? I agree, they're not running around with pitchforks.. aren't red..

But I believe rebel angels exist because that's how it reads to me. A good thing about study is, you always go back and redo it.. and if correct in the findings, you learn your material all that much better.
:Peace2:

CST · October 18, 2018, 02:14:18 PM

Yes, but not forgetting the horrors of human wickedness does not remotely mean Satan or demons existed and caused them. To be honest if Satan or demons caused them I care lss to remember the because they we're really the fault of me and mine. And it's difficult in my view to invoke the Tower of Babel for anything as God didn't tell us exactly what unnerved Him about it. Probably because to do so would defeat the point of doing it. Although the reason could be buried in the text somewhere for the discerning.

Do I believe there are angels? Angel are the unexplained agencies in the Bible I'm most inclined to believe to, hey, for all I know one of the angels could be Adam another could be Abel, one could be Seth. There are so many possibilities that I don't know where to start. The angels are always assumed to be new characters from a completely different beings and I struggle to see the support for that.

Why wouldn't the angelic beings rebel? How about reversing that, why would they rebel? According to the Lord's Prayer we pray "Thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven." But apparently it's only been done in Heaven since the rebel angels were overthrown in which case how can I trust their won't be another rebellion 'up there' that will throw all God's plans off?

Thinking that Satan got it into his head to rebel and actually did so is the most horrifying thought. A divine being got it into his head to rebel against his master and creator all by himself. How dare he? That's a shocking thought? What did Satan lack that his position wasn't good enough. What did those that followed him lack so, to believe he was right?

marie glen · October 20, 2018, 12:45:01 AM

I didn't say Satan causes all evils people do.. I said he overall quickens things along.. "why do the nations (unbelievers?) rage"..
.."The god of this world, the prince of the air has blinded the minds.." and holds sway. I think :dontknow: it's easy to see the hypnotic nature of it in the world..

One day we'll know the truth of the matter.. Until then it sounds like we may just have to agree to disagree.. :gsmile: :Peace2:

CST · October 20, 2018, 05:47:30 PM

Yes, I agree. But the point here is that I don't see the difference.

marie glen · October 20, 2018, 09:21:43 PM

This thread has made me think about angels.. which I don't often think about. They're called messengers. And I was thinking whether they work to steer mankind.. Which I don't know, but there is the verse in Revelation that says "the harvesters are angels/messengers"..

DavidFord · October 21, 2018, 04:57:35 AM

Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 09:21:43 PM
This thread has made me think about angels.. which I don't often think about. They're called messengers. And I was thinking whether they work to steer mankind.. Which I don't know, but there is the verse in Revelation that says "the harvesters are angels/messengers"..

Healy says that every person he's seen had a personal assistant angel.

_The Veil: An Invitation to the Unseen Realm_ by Blake Healy
https://www.amazon.com/Veil-Invitation-Unseen-Realm/dp/1629994901/

DavidFord · October 21, 2018, 05:07:55 AM

Quote from: CST on October 18, 2018, 02:14:18 PMDo I believe there are angels? Angel are the unexplained agencies in the Bible I'm most inclined to believe to, hey, for all I know one of the angels could be Adam another could be Abel, one could be Seth.
....
Thinking that Satan got it into his head to rebel and actually did so is the most horrifying thought. A divine being got it into his head to rebel against his master and creator all by himself. How dare he? That's a shocking thought? What did Satan lack that his position wasn't good enough. What did those that followed him lack so, to believe he was right?

"for all I know one of the angels could be Adam"
You think Adam didn't exist. Rephrased: 'for all I know one of the angels could be a being I don't believe ever existed.'
"A divine being got it into his head to rebel against his master and creator all by himself"
Numerous people created in God's image rebel against God. Several atheist dictators in history wanted to be worshiped.
"What did Satan lack"
Control over others, for one thing.

DavidFord · October 21, 2018, 05:28:41 AM

Quote from: Ross on October 15, 2018, 04:06:19 AMseems to suggest Satan can punish every little thing we do wrong.
Hence can accuse us from sins of our families, generations, work colleagues, theological ideas, words- basically any thought or action which is sin.
Since he was a liar from the beginning, this seems to point out he is doing his job.

A lying accusation is one thing, and I'm sure satan does that often. A truthful accusation is something else, and I bet satan does that, frequently accusing sinning Christians to God's face.
Rebecca Brown's husband Daniel once encountered an angel recording everything Daniel did, said, and thought. The angel pointed out 2 of satan's servants that were busy recording everything Daniel did and said (but not: thought), to build a legal case so satan could then "petition God for the right to attack you and bring destruction into your life." Daniel understood that "every time I sin or say something wrong, that gives legal grounds for Satan to use to attack me."

booklet "The Verdict" by Rebecca Brown and Daniel Yoder (2009), 50pp., 4-6.
https://www.harvestwarriors.com

MusicLover123 · October 21, 2018, 05:32:13 AM

I've heard the term "Divine court" used (example Dr. Jones at God's Kingdom ministries)

Would that relate?

DavidFord · October 21, 2018, 05:39:07 AM

Quote from: marie glen on October 17, 2018, 10:27:44 PMAfter all, He interfered with Babel Tower lest nothing be beyond them.. all working together as they were.. and that to me strongly suggests self destruction....
It just seems to me - beyond quoting scripture which we've done, that if you have disobedience, one of the possibilities is oppressions and abuses. ....
A good thing about study is, you always go back and redo it.. and if correct in the findings, you learn your material all that much better.

Re: the Tower of Babel people working together being capable of anything, one pastor likened that to a group of toddlers up to no good who are capable of _anything_.
Yes, sin-- even sin by one's parent-- can invite oppression by demons.

DavidFord · October 21, 2018, 05:48:45 AM

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 21, 2018, 05:32:13 AM
I've heard the term "Divine court" used (example Dr. Jones at God's Kingdom ministries)
Would that relate?

Yes. Apparently, people that show up in the Court of Heaven are almost-always guilty of what they're being accused of. They plead guilty, and ask Jesus to represent them in court.

"Defeating Your Adversary in the Court of Heaven" by Praying Medic
https://www.amazon.com/Defeating-Your-Adversary-Court-Heaven/dp/0998091219/

MusicLover123 · October 21, 2018, 02:20:48 PM

Scripture describes Jesus. Does that mean there is a literal Jesus? Or a literal God? Or a literal Creation? Or literal miracles? Or a literal Resurrection? Or a literal Holy Spirit?

Of course these things are literally true and literally exist. I see no reason why Angels, demons, etc. don't literally exist. There is too much testimony too them(myself included) for it to be all in the mind.

Taking things that exist and making them not exist in your head does not make you Spiritual. It just makes you stupid. :winkgrin: (I am being sarcastic here, not actually calling anyone stupid)

Edit: :duck: :banana: :duck: :banana:

GodIsLove · October 21, 2018, 09:07:49 PM

Eeeee...calling people stupid when they don't believe as you do...

Testimony of others shouldn't be what persuades us because of things like: imagination, mental illness, true spiritual experiences being interpreted carnally and twisted, etc...

And don't forget...

1 Corinthians 13:9-12 King James Version (KJV)

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

...I read that Praying Medic book. I keep an open mind, but am put off by anyone who feels they have the truth, including members of this usually gracious and civil discussion forum. So I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong because my mind is open, but I'm cautioning the haughty attitude I'm sensing here.

DavidFord · October 22, 2018, 04:44:34 AM

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 21, 2018, 09:07:49 PM
I keep an open mind, but am put off by anyone who feels they have the truth

I assume that most everyone thinks that all their beliefs are true. Of course, some of everyone's beliefs are incorrect. If someone were to tell me that they have only true beliefs, I'd disagree with them.

CST · October 23, 2018, 07:55:10 PM

Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 09:21:43 PM
This thread has made me think about angels.. which I don't often think about. They're called messengers. And I was thinking whether they work to steer mankind.. Which I don't know, but there is the verse in Revelation that says "the harvesters are angels/messengers"..

Again, I find the concept 'harvesters' difficult to interpret.

Quote from: DavidFord on October 21, 2018, 05:07:55 AM
Quote from: CST on October 18, 2018, 02:14:18 PMDo I believe there are angels? Angel are the unexplained agencies in the Bible I'm most inclined to believe to, hey, for all I know one of the angels could be Adam another could be Abel, one could be Seth.
....
Thinking that Satan got it into his head to rebel and actually did so is the most horrifying thought. A divine being got it into his head to rebel against his master and creator all by himself. How dare he? That's a shocking thought? What did Satan lack that his position wasn't good enough. What did those that followed him lack so, to believe he was right?
"for all I know one of the angels could be Adam"
You think Adam didn't exist. Rephrased: 'for all I know one of the angels could be a being I don't believe ever existed.'
"A divine being got it into his head to rebel against his master and creator all by himself"
Numerous people created in God's image rebel against God. Several atheist dictators in history wanted to be worshiped.
"What did Satan lack"
Control over others, for one thing.

Now you're getting it, for the purpose of this discussion I can allow the possibility he existed because the only point is how human beings live on Earth did and later become messages that are encountered by others who then die and become angels.

Heck, God doesn't operate in linear time I understand so on this model, for all I know, one of the angels could be Donald Trump. That's a hard idea to believe but acceptance of UR means i can't rule it out.

But that's the point, everyone want's to be worshipped if they can get away with it, I suspect it's a misfiring of being made in the image of God which is worthy of worship. People want to be worshipped and try to be worshipped but some being better than others set themselves up as agencies of a greater power. Some set them selves up as witches and offer a service some people will want some might set themselves up as exorcists and tell people there are demons that only they can get rid of. Some invent false gods which only they have the means to appease if only the populace will do as they say. And all these things are set up in opposition to God because sinful man always tries to avoid God if he can help it. This is the very, I can explain, witches and demons and idols with reference to new supernatural powers and with references to the fundamental truth of the Bible that humans and very sinful and act in rebellion against God. People make so much up to benefit themselves the likelihood of anything other than God being true is slim to none.

Hmm, when you say 'Control over others' I imagine you mean he can't just hijack them and get them to do bad things with no control. That process would be pointless anyway. According to the Bible and tradition Satan says jump people say how high, sounds like control to me.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 21, 2018, 02:20:48 PM
Scripture describes Jesus. Does that mean there is a literal Jesus? Or a literal God? Or a literal Creation? Or literal miracles? Or a literal Resurrection? Or a literal Holy Spirit?

Of course these things are literally true and literally exist. I see no reason why Angels, demons, etc. don't literally exist. There is too much testimony too them(myself included) for it to be all in the mind.

Taking things that exist and making them not exist in your head does not make you Spiritual. It just makes you stupid. :winkgrin: (I am being sarcastic here, not actually calling anyone stupid)

Edit: :duck: :banana: :duck: :banana:

Scripture does describe Jesus, it doesn't describe demons they turn up when they supposedly cross path with humans who try to exorcise them but when they left we have no more information about them then we had before, the Bible adds information to information about many of its characters. That does not mean they all exist but it means there's more reason to think they exist than demons who continue to make no sense.

DavidFord · October 24, 2018, 05:22:12 AM

Quote from: CST on October 23, 2018, 07:55:10 PM
Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 09:21:43 PM
This thread has made me think about angels.. which I don't often think about. They're called messengers. And I was thinking whether they work to steer mankind.. Which I don't know, but there is the verse in Revelation that says "the harvesters are angels/messengers"..

Again, I find the concept 'harvesters' difficult to interpret.

Mt 9 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
36. And when Yeshua saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, that they were weary and scattered like sheep that have not a shepherd. 37. And he said to his talmida [students/disciples],
"The harvest is great
and the workers few.
38. Beseech, therefore, the lord (of) the harvest
that he should send workers to his harvest."

Mt 13
28. And he said to them,
A man (who is) an enemy did this.'
His servants said to him,
Do you desire for us to go pluck them out?'
29. But he said to them,
No, lest while you are plucking out the zizana [a noxious weed that looks like wheat],
you also uproot the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest,
and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers,
Pluck out first the zizana and bind them in bundles to be burned,
but the wheat, gather them into my storehouses.'"
....
36. Then Yeshua left the crowds and came to the house, and his talmida drew near to him and said to him, "Explain to us the mathla [parable], that of the zizana and of the field." 37. Then he answered and said to them, "He who sowed the good seed is the Barh-d'Ansha [Son of Man].
38. And the field is the ailma [world],
and the good seed are the sons of the Kingdom.
And the zizana are the sons of the evil one.
39. And the enemy who sowed them is Satana,
and the harvest is the end of the ailma [world/age],
and the reapers (are) the malaka [messengers, i.e. angels]
40. As therefore the zizana are plucked and burned in the fire,
likewise it will be in the end of this ailma.
41. The Barh-d'Ansha will send His angels,
and they will pluck out from His Kingdom
all stumbling blocks and all workers of iniquity.
42. And they will cast them into the furnace of fire.
There will be weeping (and) gnashing of teeth.
43. Then the zadiqa [righteous] will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

John 4
34. Yeshua said to them,
"My food is that I do the will of Him who sent me,
and (that) I complete His work.
35. Do you not say that after four months the harvest comes?
I say to you, behold, lift up your eyes and see the fields [literally: landscape] that are white
and have ripened for the harvest already.
36. And he that reaps receives a wage
and gathers fruit l'khia-d'l'ailm.[unto-life of-to-the world(s)/age(s)]
And the sower and the reaper together will rejoice.
37. For in this is an instance of truth:
that one is sowing and the other one reaping.
38. I have sent you to reap the thing in which you had not did labor.
For others tired and you have entered into their labor."

CST · October 24, 2018, 11:37:34 AM

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 05:22:12 AM
Quote from: CST on October 23, 2018, 07:55:10 PM
Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 09:21:43 PM
This thread has made me think about angels.. which I don't often think about. They're called messengers. And I was thinking whether they work to steer mankind.. Which I don't know, but there is the verse in Revelation that says "the harvesters are angels/messengers"..

Again, I find the concept 'harvesters' difficult to interpret.
Mt 9 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
36. And when Yeshua saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, that they were weary and scattered like sheep that have not a shepherd. 37. And he said to his talmida [students/disciples],
"The harvest is great
and the workers few.
38. Beseech, therefore, the lord (of) the harvest
that he should send workers to his harvest."

Mt 13
28. And he said to them,
A man (who is) an enemy did this.'
His servants said to him,
Do you desire for us to go pluck them out?'
29. But he said to them,
No, lest while you are plucking out the zizana [a noxious weed that looks like wheat],
you also uproot the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest,
and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers,
Pluck out first the zizana and bind them in bundles to be burned,
but the wheat, gather them into my storehouses.'"
....
36. Then Yeshua left the crowds and came to the house, and his talmida drew near to him and said to him, "Explain to us the mathla [parable], that of the zizana and of the field." 37. Then he answered and said to them, "He who sowed the good seed is the Barh-d'Ansha [Son of Man].
38. And the field is the ailma [world],
and the good seed are the sons of the Kingdom.
And the zizana are the sons of the evil one.
39. And the enemy who sowed them is Satana,
and the harvest is the end of the ailma [world/age],
and the reapers (are) the malaka [messengers, i.e. angels]
40. As therefore the zizana are plucked and burned in the fire,
likewise it will be in the end of this ailma.
41. The Barh-d'Ansha will send His angels,
and they will pluck out from His Kingdom
all stumbling blocks and all workers of iniquity.
42. And they will cast them into the furnace of fire.
There will be weeping (and) gnashing of teeth.
43. Then the zadiqa [righteous] will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

John 4
34. Yeshua said to them,
"My food is that I do the will of Him who sent me,
and (that) I complete His work.
35. Do you not say that after four months the harvest comes?
I say to you, behold, lift up your eyes and see the fields [literally: landscape] that are white
and have ripened for the harvest already.
36. And he that reaps receives a wage
and gathers fruit l'khia-d'l'ailm.[unto-life of-to-the world(s)/age(s)]
And the sower and the reaper together will rejoice.
37. For in this is an instance of truth:
that one is sowing and the other one reaping.
38. I have sent you to reap the thing in which you had not did labor.
For others tired and you have entered into their labor."

Yeah, these are symbols what they refer to is not entirely clear to me.

marie glen · October 24, 2018, 05:13:25 PM

Revelation chapter 14, the two harvests of earth.

Portrayed in metaphor, but literal.

Reaping the Earth's Harvest (wheat into His barn)
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath (tares to Armageddon, last war/battle of man)

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city..

Cardinal · October 24, 2018, 09:51:35 PM

:cloud9: Turned over to HaSatan = means the soul's (that person's) covering was removed. What happened to the women (souls) who were uncovered? Basically, they are being turned over to the things they would not overcome, until it breaks them and in so doing, brings true repentance. A little leaven leaves the whole lump. Not only would the spirit they accepted and refused to be delivered of gain strength from this, but more would have free access as well because of rebellion and disobedience, making that man's latter state worse than at the first. We see this all the time being played out around us ( or in us if we do same). But what the enemy means for evil, God means for good. We are chastised by our own iniquities and eat of the fruit of our own lips, both in the body and out of it. My :2c: Blessings...

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“For the destruction of the flesh”