eternal hell questioning.

[Adam harris]

 what I've gathered is most don't believe in eternal hell and hell is a fake word created by something else. Here's my view. If I were to go all my life being fearful and not following my heart or my ideas that I get from Jesus why would I deserve heaven?? Shouldn't I deserve torment? Explain to me why there is an eternal hell or let me reword it. A place of torment. Explain why it's not permanent. Is the place of torment really a purifying of the spirit and soul? I understand the god is love concept because it is written but doesn't it say even the demons in hell know as well? I'd really like to know what you think.

[WhiteWings]

Humans are not demons.
'Hell' was made for the devil and his angels.
All hell verses are actually purification verses. In Jesus' time torment meant testing gold. The torture definition didn't came into use in until 288AD.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/Torment.html


The sheep and goat judgement is often used as the key verse for proving hell.
Do believers in Jesus Christ goto hell? Both sheep and goats were Christians because they preached about Jesus! It's just a good works / no works judgment. Not punishment but correction.


Finally take a look at Revelation. Jesus starts an all out war against evil. And what happens after that? People are invited to come into the city of New Jerusalem to drink from the Water of Life. Nations are offered to eat from the tree that yield fruit all year long. But those people were not among the saints that fought alongside Jesus. And according to classic understanding all who not fought with Jesus are burning in hell. Kinda on isn't it.....?  :flamebreath:

May I suggest to read the complete article including links? Maybe you'll see what I see then...
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

[joeteekay]

Right on WW. I would suggest that Harris read a number of articles dealing with what ultimate conciliation and the salvation of all really entails.
:Peace2:

[Adam harris]

Alright ill read he article. I think that eternal punishment for humans wouldn't add up to me honestly either. A teaching process that involves torment may be more understandable but I'm lost when it comes to punishment. Isn't all sins the same? Doesn't the bible say something like 1 sin is no greater then the other or something to that nature?

[Adam harris]

Humans are not demons.
'Hell' was made for the devil and his angels.
All hell verses are actually purification verses. In Jesus' time torment meant testing gold. The torture definition didn't came into use in until 288AD.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/Torment.html


The sheep and goat judgement is often used as the key verse for proving hell.
Do believers in Jesus Christ goto hell? Both sheep and goats were Christians because they preached about Jesus! It's just a good works / no works judgment. Not punishment but correction.


Finally take a look at Revelation. Jesus starts an all out war against evil. And what happens after that? People are invited to come into the city of New Jerusalem to drink from the Water of Life. Nations are offered to eat from the tree that yield fruit all year long. But those people were not among the saints that fought alongside Jesus. And according to classic understanding all who not fought with Jesus are burning in hell. Kinda on isn't it.....?  :flamebreath:

May I suggest to read the complete article including links? Maybe you'll see what I see then...
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

Ok are you saying there is a place of torment though for sinners that know jesus but did wrong all of there life's? Example drunk all there life. Liars all there life. Killers....child molesters..arson...mental abuse...i know you understand where I'm coming from..I know you do. Where would human like that go?

[Adam harris]

Humans are not demons.
'Hell' was made for the devil and his angels.
All hell verses are actually purification verses. In Jesus' time torment meant testing gold. The torture definition didn't came into use in until 288AD.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/Torment.html


The sheep and goat judgement is often used as the key verse for proving hell.
Do believers in Jesus Christ goto hell? Both sheep and goats were Christians because they preached about Jesus! It's just a good works / no works judgment. Not punishment but correction.


Finally take a look at Revelation. Jesus starts an all out war against evil. And what happens after that? People are invited to come into the city of New Jerusalem to drink from the Water of Life. Nations are offered to eat from the tree that yield fruit all year long. But those people were not among the saints that fought alongside Jesus. And according to classic understanding all who not fought with Jesus are burning in hell. Kinda on isn't it.....?  :flamebreath:

May I suggest to read the complete article including links? Maybe you'll see what I see then...
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

So there's 3 types of seas...the good the bad and the pagan...we as humans are in the bad sea right now?

[Adam harris]

Right on WW. I would suggest that Harris read a number of articles dealing with what ultimate conciliation and the salvation of all really entails.
:Peace2:

My name is Adam. Is yours Joe?  So there is no forever punishment? What if someone was stubborn to Jesus and didn't listen to him for say 40 earth years. Then he dies. How long do you think the firey law would last to purifysomeone so set in there ways.

[Adam harris]

Humans are not demons.
'Hell' was made for the devil and his angels.
All hell verses are actually purification verses. In Jesus' time torment meant testing gold. The torture definition didn't came into use in until 288AD.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/Torment.html


The sheep and goat judgement is often used as the key verse for proving hell.
Do believers in Jesus Christ goto hell? Both sheep and goats were Christians because they preached about Jesus! It's just a good works / no works judgment. Not punishment but correction.


Finally take a look at Revelation. Jesus starts an all out war against evil. And what happens after that? People are invited to come into the city of New Jerusalem to drink from the Water of Life. Nations are offered to eat from the tree that yield fruit all year long. But those people were not among the saints that fought alongside Jesus. And according to classic understanding all who not fought with Jesus are burning in hell. Kinda on isn't it.....?  :flamebreath:

May I suggest to read the complete article including links? Maybe you'll see what I see then...
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

Also the. Pagans do they get refined pure as well or are they doomed forever because of there beliefs?

[eaglesway]

Col. 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Phil 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him

Evryone will be reconciled to God. Everyone will be gathered into one in Christ.  :dsunny:

Ro 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.




Everyone will be reconciled to God.

[Adam harris]

Reconciled to God to me means purified in the firey law for 240 years because of my stubborn fearful self. Amen

[Dandelion]

Adam, I think ultimately, the best thing is for us to not dwell on our fears, but keep God in sight, just like Peter realized, when he walked on the water, in the Bible passage I posted.

We need to trust God for at least these 2 things, as I see it. That He loves us with everlasting love, and that he has our best interest at heart.

Matthew 6:
25"For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26"Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27"And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?...

Jeremiah 29:11New International Version (NIV)

11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

And, my favorite:

...4So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man. 5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.... Proverbs 3

Father Andrew Greeley, a Roman Catholic priest, who was considered 'avant-garde' said once, to be a Christian is to walk happily into the dark, with the implication, that Christ will be waiting for us there, and lead us.

This is a good verse to remember, too:

Matthew 18:

...2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven....

We need to trust our heavenly Father, as a small child trusts their parents, believing that their presence and love will be enough to help the child through anything.

We need to ask God to help us trust Him.

Have faith, have trust, believe, listen and obey. We all struggle, Adam. It is often in the midst of our pain and struggle that we see God the clearest.

And He promises that He will use all things for our good. ALL THINGS, Adam. Amazing, right?

Romans 8:28King James Version (KJV)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God meets us wherever we are, Adam. There is nothing that is too much of an obstacle for Him.

I am so glad you are here with us!

Talk to you, soon.

:friendstu:

[Adam harris]

Adam, I think ultimately, the best thing is for us to not dwell on our fears, but keep God in sight, just like Peter realized, when he walked on the water, in the Bible passage I posted.

We need to trust God for at least these 2 things, as I see it. That He loves us with everlasting love, and that he has our best interest at heart.

Matthew 6:
25"For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26"Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? 27"And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?...

Jeremiah 29:11New International Version (NIV)

11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

And, my favorite:

...4So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man. 5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.... Proverbs 3

Father Andrew Greeley, a Roman Catholic priest, who was considered 'avant-garde' said once, to be a Christian is to walk happily into the dark, with the implication, that Christ will be waiting for us there, and lead us.

This is a good verse to remember, too:

Matthew 18:

...2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, 3and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven....

We need to trust our heavenly Father, as a small child trusts their parents, believing that their presence and love will be enough to help the child through anything.

We need to ask God to help us trust Him.

Have faith, have trust, believe, listen and obey. We all struggle, Adam. It is often in the midst of our pain and struggle that we see God the clearest.

And He promises that He will use all things for our good. ALL THINGS, Adam. Amazing, right?

Romans 8:28King James Version (KJV)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

God meets us wherever we are, Adam. There is nothing that is too much of an obstacle for Him.

I am so glad you are here with us!

Talk to you, soon.

:friendstu:

Thank you...but I don't think ill be anywhere in heaven...I'm nothing more then a coward...I already know this.. I knew most of those verses but I don't believe in them..that makes me an unbeliever as well..which I am..but the thing I think that's going to keep me out of the kingdom of God is that last verse about how we should convert to child like. Or as we were as a child..I refuse to act like I did when I was a child...sure I was free..sure I was happy..but I was also deeply hurt..ill never act like a child again.. if God and Jesus want to keep me out of heaven so be it..ill suffer in the fire

[Lazarus Short]

Adam:

There is our carnal nature.  It is typified and symbolized in the Bible as wood, hay, & stubble, as tares, as chaff, as dross.  When we see those things being thrown into the fire or carried off by the wind, it is not a class of people, it is part of each of US.  We each/all suffer the destruction of that part of our nature.

There is our spiritual nature.  It is typified and symbolized in the Bible as wheat, gold & silver, precious gems.  Again, when it is gathered into a barn or ushered into the Kingdom, it is not a class of people, it is part of each of US.  We each/all undergo the salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification) of our spiritual selves:  Christ in us, the hope of Glory.

As to Hell, see Genesis 1:1, which states that God created the heaven and the earth.  It fails to mention the creation of Hell, quite a lapse if Hell actually exists.  Did Jesus not tell us "If it were not so, I would have told you"?  I conclude, then, that God did not make Hell.

Also see John 1:3  "All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made."  Soooooo - if God didn't make Hell, no one else did either.  Therefore:  no Hell.

[jabcat]

Adam, your legal standing with God (whether you're His child or not) doesn't depend on your works or ability.  It depends on the free gift He gives you of His grace through faith and belief on His Son Jesus Christ as your Savior.  God corrects His children, but He doesn't beat or torture them.

[WhiteWings]

Also the. Pagans do they get refined pure as well or are they doomed forever because of there beliefs?

My guess is that everybody gets purified during and/or after this life. If you read the article you will notice that for example the apostles were being purified. They weren't set on fire. At least not literal fire. They were tested and taught.

So there's 3 types of seas...the good the bad and the pagan...we as humans are in the bad sea right now?

When the Bible speaks about a sea not being a literal body of water it's often linked to something not being at rest. Waves, roaring, tumult, etc.
Sea (not the water) can be compared to the use of nations. Yes, all of them are pagan.
Read section C4 for examples: http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

Literal sea, symbolic sea and the sea that's called the Temple Laver aka lake of fire.
Keeping the above in mind read the verses below. Do you see Jesus' mission?

Mark 4:35-41New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Calms the Storm
35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, "Let us go over to the other side."
36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him.
37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped.
38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?"
39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
40 He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"
41 They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"

[WhiteWings]

Alright ill read he article. I think that eternal punishment for humans wouldn't add up to me honestly either. A teaching process that involves torment may be more understandable but I'm lost when it comes to punishment. Isn't all sins the same? Doesn't the bible say something like 1 sin is no greater then the other or something to that nature?

That's often claimed but I don't agree. Just read the OT. When someone steals he/she has to repay double or more depending on the nature. That alone shows that not all stealing is the same sin. Some sins like adultary meant death. So while all types of sins are just that, sins, the punishment differs a lot.

Keep in mind that torment has nothing to do with torture, demons, devils, and stuff like that. What it really is I can't tell you. God can use billions of methods that are exactly taylored to the situation/person.
Also keep in mind that while Jesus clearly said God will not be mocked, that God will root out evil and similar statements Jesus always picked His word carefully. Greek has two words that are often translated as 'punishment'.
One of them means vengence.
Jesus always used the other word meaning correction. Or more exactly, pruning.

[WhiteWings]

Humans are not demons.
'Hell' was made for the devil and his angels.
All hell verses are actually purification verses. In Jesus' time torment meant testing gold. The torture definition didn't came into use in until 288AD.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/Torment.html


The sheep and goat judgement is often used as the key verse for proving hell.
Do believers in Jesus Christ goto hell? Both sheep and goats were Christians because they preached about Jesus! It's just a good works / no works judgment. Not punishment but correction.


Finally take a look at Revelation. Jesus starts an all out war against evil. And what happens after that? People are invited to come into the city of New Jerusalem to drink from the Water of Life. Nations are offered to eat from the tree that yield fruit all year long. But those people were not among the saints that fought alongside Jesus. And according to classic understanding all who not fought with Jesus are burning in hell. Kinda on isn't it.....?  :flamebreath:

May I suggest to read the complete article including links? Maybe you'll see what I see then...
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

Also the. Pagans do they get refined pure as well or are they doomed forever because of there beliefs?

Everyone without exception will get purified.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That verse isn't about eternal life in hell. Without Jesus everyone would just be dead forever.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Faith is a tool that God uses to give grace. Faith itself is given by God as gift. God controls it all.


Here you can find a LOT of good articles. Yes a lot of reading but you will get good understanding of UR real fast.  http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html


Keep in mind Jesus came to save all. Did He fail?