Hi, I was listening to one of Gary's messages where he was quoting from Josephus' writings for verifying certain historical happenings as pertaining to Jesus etc. I googled and found his writings and was planning on having a scan for a few minutes. I looked at the index and noticed one chapter with the heading "Hades". I decided to check it out. I was taken aback when I started to read the typical teaching of eternal torment and torture..flames etc etc. I don't know what to believe anymore. I know for sure that many times God was drawing me to His heart as a youngster and several times through my young adult life which finally culminated in me throwing myself into His arms of love at the age of 24. I am now 53. I have never doubted His love for me, but certainly the teachings of the church can mess with your head, and I have spent years feeling useless, comparing myself to other more 'spiritually mature and wise' Christians. My first teaching of hell not being eternal torture was introduced to me by Seventh Day Aventists. Then I found Tentmaker, and here was yet another version of heaven, hell and salvation. Boy, do I ever feel like I have been 'tossed around by every wind of doctrine"!(I still cannot get my head around the thought that a person who tortures another person, will end up in heaven with the one he tortured/murdered and everyone lives happily ever after, and all is forgiven. People live devastated lives because of some callous and vicious people. Yet UR doctrine says everyone lives in heaven after death.) Still I am off topic...I guess my concern is, if we are to take the writings of Josephus as truth and verification of history on one topic, how come we don't take him seriously when he addresses the topic of hell? He lived in the first century didn't he? That was several hundred years before Dante? I thought we got our picture of hell from Dante...but it seems Dante may have gotten his from Josephus. I wonder where Josephus got his picture of hell from? Is it all pagan religions and superstition? I did write and ask Gary because it is really bothering me. That was several days ago and I have not had a reply yet. So, I am hoping someone else can give me a more educated response. I must admit I have only skimmed a small surface, and have not dived in. Thanks so much for any input.
Quote from: lja on August 17, 2010, 09:12:57 PM
Hi, I was listening to one of Gary's messages where he was quoting from Josephus' writings for verifying certain historical happenings as pertaining to Jesus etc. I googled and found his writings and was planning on having a scan for a few minutes. I looked at the index and noticed one chapter with the heading "Hades". I decided to check it out. I was taken aback when I started to read the typical teaching of eternal torment and torture..flames etc etc. I don't know what to believe anymore. I know for sure that many times God was drawing me to His heart as a youngster and several times through my young adult life which finally culminated in me throwing myself into His arms of love at the age of 24. I am now 53. I have never doubted His love for me, but certainly the teachings of the church can mess with your head, and I have spent years feeling useless, comparing myself to other more 'spiritually mature and wise' Christians. My first teaching of hell not being eternal torture was introduced to me by Seventh Day Aventists. Then I found Tentmaker, and here was yet another version of heaven, hell and salvation. Boy, do I ever feel like I have been 'tossed around by every wind of doctrine"!(I still cannot get my head around the thought that a person who tortures another person, will end up in heaven with the one he tortured/murdered and everyone lives happily ever after, and all is forgiven. People live devastated lives because of some callous and vicious people. Yet UR doctrine says everyone lives in heaven after death.) Still I am off topic...I guess my concern is, if we are to take the writings of Josephus as truth and verification of history on one topic, how come we don't take him seriously when he addresses the topic of hell? He lived in the first century didn't he? That was several hundred years before Dante? I thought we got our picture of hell from Dante...but it seems Dante may have gotten his from Josephus. I wonder where Josephus got his picture of hell from? Is it all pagan religions and superstition? I did write and ask Gary because it is really bothering me. That was several days ago and I have not had a reply yet. So, I am hoping someone else can give me a more educated response. I must admit I have only skimmed a small surface, and have not dived in. Thanks so much for any input.
The Roman historian Titus Livius (59 BC – AD 17), says Numa Pompilius, the second king of Rome, invented the fear of the gods:
Rome was now at peace; there was no immediate prospect of attack from outside and the tight rein of constant military discipline was relaxed. In these novel circumstances there was an obvious danger of a general relaxation of the nation's moral fibre, so to prevent its occurrence Numa decided upon a step which he felt would prove more effective than anything else with a mob as rough and ignorant as the Romans were in those days. This was to inspire them with the fear of the gods...and he was in the habit of meeting the goddess Egeria at night, and that it was her authority that guided him in the establishment of such rites.Livy, History of Rome 1:19.
In the 2nd century BC, another historian, Polybius (ca. 200–118 BC), gave an account of the introduction of superstitions about the after life by rulers, as a means for controlling the plebs. He wrote:
But among all the useful institutions, that demonstrate the superior excellence of the Roman government, the most considerable perhaps is the opinion which the people are taught to hold concerning the gods: and that, which other men regard as an object of disgrace, appears in my judgment to be the very thing by which this republic chiefly is sustained. I mean, superstition: which is impressed with all it terrors; and influences both the private actions of the citizens, and the public administration also of the state, in a degree that can scarcely be exceeded. This may appear astonishing to many. To me it is evident, that this contrivance was at first adopted for the sake of the multitude. For if it were possible that a state could be composed of wise men only, there would be no need, perhaps, of any such invention. But as the people universally are fickle and inconstant, filled with irregular desires, too precipitate in their passions, and prone to violence; there is no way left to restrain them, but by the dread of things unseen, and by the pageantry of terrifying fiction. The ancients, therefore, acted not absurdedly, nor without good reason, when they inculcated the notions concerning the gods, and the belief of infernal punishments; but much more those of the present age are to be charged with rashness and absurdity, in endeavoring to extirpate these opinions. For, not to mention effects that flow from such an institution, if, among the Greeks, for example, a single talent only be entrusted to those who have the management of any of the public money; though they give ten written sureties, with as many seals and twice as many witnesses, they are unable to discharge the trusts reposed in them with integrity. But the Romans, on the other hand, who in the course of their magistracies, and in embassies, disperse the greatest sums, are prevailed on by the single obligation of an oath to perform their duties with inviolable honesty. And as, in other states, a man is rarely found whose hands are pure from public robbery; so, among the Romans, it is no less rare to discover one that is tainted with this crime. But all things are subject to decay and change. This is a truth so evident, and so demonstrated by the perpetual and the necessary force of nature, that it needs no other proof.Polybius [Histories VI,56].
It idea of immortality of the soul derives from Plato. Werner Jaeger wrote:
The Hebrew Bible does not know immortality ... [of the soul] at all, and the idea of resurrection in the New Testament is quite different. If nevertheless Plato's ideas of the soul and its destiny seem so familiar to us and have kept their direct appeal, that is because they have been adopted, with inevitable modifications, by the fathers of the church. If they dogmatized this part of Plato's philosophy of the soul, whereas in Plato himself everything remains in suspense, they have this in common with the Neoplatonists, who brought it all into the form of a theological system. The Christian fathers rejected the story of the transmigration of the soul, but they accepted the immortality of the individual soul, since they found it reconcilable with Paul's notion of the resurrection and with Jewish-Christian angelology, i.e., the existence of a world of immaterial beings. The most important fact in the history of Christian doctrine was that the father of Christian theology, Origen, was a Platonic philosopher at the school of Alexandria. He built into Christian doctrine the whole cosmic drama of the soul, which he took from Plato, and although later Christian fathers decided that he took over too much, that which they kept was still the essence of Plato's philosophy of the soul. It was for them as it was for Plato the significant expression of their basic spiritualism and immaterialism.Werner Jaeger, The Greek Ideas of Immortality: The Ingersoll Lecture for 1958. The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 52, No. 3. (Jul., 1959), pp. 135-147. [See p. 146]
Hope this helps,
Doug
Can you give link to the Josephus article you with Google?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
Josephus was a law-observant Jew who believed in the compatibility of Judaism and Graeco-Roman thought, commonly referred to as Hellenistic Judaism.
willieH: Hi lja... :hithere:
:welcome: to tentmaker! :friendstu:
Quote from: lja on August 17, 2010, 09:12:57 PM
Hi, I was listening to one of Gary's messages where he was quoting from Josephus' writings for verifying certain historical happenings as pertaining to Jesus etc. I googled and found his writings and was planning on having a scan for a few minutes. I looked at the index and noticed one chapter with the heading "Hades". I decided to check it out. I was taken aback when I started to read the typical teaching of eternal torment and torture..flames etc etc. I don't know what to believe anymore. I know for sure that many times God was drawing me to His heart as a youngster and several times through my young adult life which finally culminated in me throwing myself into His arms of love at the age of 24. I am now 53. I have never doubted His love for me, but certainly the teachings of the church can mess with your head, and I have spent years feeling useless, comparing myself to other more 'spiritually mature and wise' Christians. My first teaching of hell not being eternal torture was introduced to me by Seventh Day Aventists.
I spent 5 years in the 7th day Adventist church (and dearly love them all, great people :HeartThrob:)...
I eventually had several conversations with the pastor about "annhilation"... as I had come to the truth of the SALVATION of ALL... He was mostly stuttering and stammering through most of our conversations... as I presented REASON with my conclusions.
Most organizations will not tolerate any objection to their beliefs... and allow you to remain a member... the SDA consider me a member to this day...
Quote from: lja on August 17, 2010, 09:12:57 PMThen I found Tentmaker, and here was yet another version of heaven, hell and salvation. Boy, do I ever feel like I have been 'tossed around by every wind of doctrine"!
Don't be so down on yourself, nor should you WORRY over your journey. TRUST that GOD is CAREFULLY leading you down a pathway of REVELATION...
Only those who believe "this" one day, and "that" the next, ...never settling upon anything are those who are blown about. Hold on to what you believe, until GOD shows you differently... and YOU WILL KNOW, when this occurs...
Think of this in terms of schooling... because you learn to add & subtract, then later on, find out later that there is multiplication, division, fractions, algebra, and geometry, does not mean you are being blown about... you are just becoming aware...
BELIEVE what you believe... and trust and seek your Father... and He shall bring you along your way as HE decides your path for you, in conjunction with those lives, that your life shall both interact with and affect...
Quote from: lja on August 17, 2010, 09:12:57 PM(I still cannot get my head around the thought that a person who tortures another person, will end up in heaven with the one he tortured/murdered and everyone lives happily ever after, and all is forgiven.
This is because it appears that you have not yet gained a grasp of FORGIVENESS raised to PERFECTION... If GOD is telling you to FORGIVE your ENEMIES... does it rhyme with REASON (which HE invites us to)... for HIM to NOT DO the SAME? "Don't do what I DO, DO what I SAY"?
Everything is relative... so in honesty we all observe with temporal eyes, that which is temporary... If we seek to KNOW the ETERNAL... then we must needs move our observation from the TEMPORAL, and view it as it is seen from ETERNAL perspective...
If indeed you BELIEVE the SCRIPTURES, then keep in mind that where (in any amount or degree) SIN ABOUNDED, ...
GRACE did MUCH MORE ABOUND --
Rom 5:20 So wherever our FINITE EYES might observe SIN as heinous and unacceptable... We must also
KNOW ...that GRACE is also present
FAR IN EXCESS of it.
Wherever and whenever, we "MISS THE MARK" (which is the meaning of SIN)...
JESUS CHRIST has FAR exceeded that error.
Quote from: lja on August 17, 2010, 09:12:57 PMPeople live devastated lives because of some callous and vicious people. Yet UR doctrine says everyone lives in heaven after death.)
We shall still
REAP whatever we
SOW... in the natural. If it is to the FLESH, then we shall reap CORRUPTION of it in the natural life... if we SOW to the SPIRIT, then we shall REAP incorruption in the natural life. GOD is not mocked by us, nor is He "playing games" with us... WE are HIS SONS... and HE dearly loves each of us... having NO PARTIALITY to any --
Acts 10:34But it is certain that our disregard, wherever it might occur, shall find (potentially very SERIOUS) chastisement from Him... Just as blessing for our regard, will be showered upon us in the same degrees...
Quote from: lja on August 17, 2010, 09:12:57 PMStill I am off topic...I guess my concern is, if we are to take the writings of Josephus as truth and verification of history on one topic, how come we don't take him seriously when he addresses the topic of hell? He lived in the first century didn't he? That was several hundred years before Dante? I thought we got our picture of hell from Dante...but it seems Dante may have gotten his from Josephus.
What difference does it make? Darwin got his theory of evolution, from anaximander!
http://livelikedirt.blogspot.com/2010/04/anaximander-founder-of-evolutionary.html
In any event, ...MEN create their own "hell"... for they are condemning of others for that which they are usually found, excusing themselves... See --
John 8:1-12 -- (the condemnation of the Pharisees of the women caught in adultery)
Quote from: lja on August 17, 2010, 09:12:57 PMI wonder where Josephus got his picture of hell from?
I am not a student of Josephus, so I do not know what may or may not have influenced his life. Where does STEPHEN KING get his? :dontknow:
Just because Josephus was a historian and of priestly descent, does not mean that he was necessarily truly SPIRITUAL of mind... Sadly ...many a pastors "son" has ended up on the skids... :sigh:
I believe we must, as we search for TRUTH, and if we are wise, ...employ REASON within our quest, for it is INSTRUCTED of us by GOD --
Isaiah 1:18 If GOD knows the destiny of ALL humanity, and say, ...He "KNOWS" that YOU and I (before we were born) would "GO to HELL" because of our lives on earth... and brings us forth regardless...
Then GOD is in fact the ORCHESTRATOR of our journey to HELL... for NO one counsels (advises) Him --
Eph 1:11 -- and though He could've "opted" to spare us from ourselves, MERCIFULLY... instead He decides to bring us forth to SUFFER FOREVER... :omg:
Sorry... but that does NOT sound emergent of
LOVE, nor does it sound
MERCIFUL, nor does it rhyme at all with
REASON... And certainly NOT harmonious with
PEACE... :dontknow:
Those are quite a few
missing elements of which GOD is Scripturally said to be in PERFECT
POSSESSION... :Chinscratch:
This picture of GOD and His PARENTHOOD (bringing forth men to suffer forever), is exactly like this:
EXAMPLE --- I tell my kid not to run out in the street, and then sit idle as I watch my son disregard my warning, ...COLDLY and INDIFFERENTLY saying to myself... "hey, he didnt listen to me, so if he gets himself killed, or injured severely, ...its his own fault"... Shall we really view our GOD in such a way? Sorry lja... I ain't buyin' it! :thumbdown:
Quote from: lja on August 17, 2010, 09:12:57 PMIs it all pagan religions and superstition? I did write and ask Gary because it is really bothering me. That was several days ago and I have not had a reply yet. So, I am hoping someone else can give me a more educated response. I must admit I have only skimmed a small surface, and have not dived in. Thanks so much for any input.
You can BET on this new brother... that ANYONE who TEACHES HELL and ETERNAL TORMENT... believes him/herself EXEMPT from it...
I have met hundreds, even thousands of people over my lifetime which believe and teach "hell"... and NOT ONE... thought even remotely considered themselves destined for it... :rolleye:
Which is an indicator of SELF CENTEREDNESS...
CHRIST's teachings were that His followers, must RELEASE
self as well as love for temporal earthly possessions and wealth...
:Peace: and again WELCOME to Tentmaker... :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
God's pupose in sending Jesus was not to give us a better place in death. All death will be abolished, so it's nothing permanent. God is bringing forth a vast company of beings like Himself with whom He can fellowship. God's purpose is to make us in His image and likeness. That may continue without end. Now we are God's flesh and bone. He wants to restore His image and likeness in the earth. In the light of our ascending all things will be revealed. He will raise that image up to inherit all things.
willieH: Hi reFORMer! :cloud9:
Quote from: reFORMer on August 18, 2010, 07:26:08 AM
God's pupose in sending Jesus was not to give us a better place in death. All death will be abolished, so it's nothing permanent. God is bringing forth a vast company of beings like Himself with whom He can fellowship. God's purpose is to make us in His image and likeness. That may continue without end. Now we are God's flesh and bone. He wants to restore His image and likeness in the earth. In the light of our ascending all things will be revealed. He will raise that image up to inherit all things.
:goodpost:
This is a neat and concise description of what is actually "going on", reFORMer! I really enjoyed it! :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
You are probably referring to Josephus's discourse concerning Hades. This work has been attributed to Josephus for hundreds of years but scholars now know that he did not write it. The work was actually written by Hippolytus, a third century church father.
Quote from: willieH on August 18, 2010, 08:11:43 PM
willieH: Hi reFORMer! :cloud9:
Quote from: reFORMer on August 18, 2010, 07:26:08 AM
God's pupose in sending Jesus was not to give us a better place in death. All death will be abolished, so it's nothing permanent. God is bringing forth a vast company of beings like Himself with whom He can fellowship. God's purpose is to make us in His image and likeness. That may continue without end. Now we are God's flesh and bone. He wants to restore His image and likeness in the earth. In the light of our ascending all things will be revealed. He will raise that image up to inherit all things.
:goodpost:
This is a neat and concise description of what is actually "going on", reFORMer! I really enjoyed it! :thumbsup:
...willieH :cloud9:
AMEN :thumbsup: :bigGrin:
And all God's people say: Amen.
Jesus was not a Levite and neither are we.
1. Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek; later, the Levites would receive tithes from their countrymen. Since Aaron was in Abraham's loins then, it was as if the Aaronic priesthood were paying tithes to Melchizedek. (Heb. 7:4-10)
2. The one who blesses is always greater than the one being blessed. Thus, Melchizedek was greater than Abraham. As Levi was yet in the loins of Abraham, it follows that Melchizedek is greater than Levi. (Heb. 7:7-10)
3. If the priesthood of Aaron were effective, God would not have called a new priest in a different order in Psalm 110. (Heb. 7:11)
4. The basis of the Aaronic priesthood was ancestry; the basis of the priesthood of Melchizedek is everlasting life. That is, there is no interruption due to a priest's death. (Heb. 7:8,15-16,23-25)
5. Christ, being sinless, does not need a sacrifice for his own sins. (Heb. 7:26-27)
6. The priesthood of Melchizedek is more effective because it required a single sacrifice once and for all (Jesus), while the Levitical priesthood made endless sacrifices. (Heb. 7:27)
7. The Aaronic priests serve (or, rather, served) in an earthly copy and shadow of the heavenly Temple, which Jesus serves in. (Heb. 8:5)
The 1st resurrection far exceeds the 2nd, which is to be raised still in one's sin/imperfection. I'm thinking a/the "day of judgment" will be a day of examining all things (all of human history, etc) therefor must be a very long day. Because the 1st advent of Jesus was prophesied of and fulfilled the Hebrew spring holy days of Jesus the "passover lamb" "unleavened bread" and "the firstfruits" of God ("first to rise from death/the grave) - i.e. died on the sabbath of Passover (wednesday that year? holy days were called sabbaths along with the weekly sabbath) was in the grave upon "unleavened bread", also called sabbath, on our behalf "for three nights and three days" and rose "after the sabbath" (here the weekly sabbath) which during this week (of the spring holy days) was always the feast/holy day of "firstfruits" when a single sheaf of wheat was waved in the air. And then of course followed exactly seven weeks later by "pentecost".
- If the spring holy days prophesied the 1st advent, surely the fall holy days prophesy the long 2nd advent of Jesus.
- The day of "trumpets" aka last trump of 1 cor 15:51-58 & 1 th 4:15, followed 10 days later with the "day of atonement" (followed 1000 years later by the 2nd resurrection and the "day of judgment/surprise, atonement!) - Followed 5 days/500 years by "Tabernacles" (when "God will now tabernacle with man" rev 21:3). This makes me believe Day of Judgment/examination of all things, hammering home that lesson of knowing good from evil (Life from death/nonlife) the whole purpose of all this.. That's 500 years for those of the 2nd resurrection to wait until they will "put on immortality".
- The Day of Atonement was always a day of great mourning and deep sorrow.. hence the 1st resurrection which is an extremely joyful one, far exceeds the 2nd :)