hebrews 2:14

[Abigail]

I was wondering what is meant by the following verse:

'He in a similar manner partook of the same (nature), that by (going through) death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death - that is, the devil - and also that He might deliver and completely set free all those who through the fear of death were held in bondage throughout the whole course of their lives.'

I wonder what it means that the devil 'had the power of death'. How did he get that and what did that imply, and what is the difference for people who live now and lived then?

[Patinak]

I was wondering what is meant by the following verse:

'He in a similar manner partook of the same (nature), that by (going through) death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death - that is, the devil - and also that He might deliver and completely set free all those who through the fear of death were held in bondage throughout the whole course of their lives.'

I wonder what it means that the devil 'had the power of death'. How did he get that and what did that imply, and what is the difference for people who live now and lived then?

I think that the devil (who is the father of lies) was the author of the 'false doctrine' of an uncertain eternity (in hades?), much like some today author the false doctrine of eternity in hell.  The false doctrine being the 'power of death' that he held (similarly, the hell doctrine holds many in bondage).
The prior verses explain how (and why) Jesus came in flesh, so that he could disprove this falsehood by his own death and resurrection, revealing himself to many witnesses after his human death.  As he was human and resurrected, he showed the certainty of resurrection, and for us, that there should be no fear (bondage) about the future after death.
To me this is the meaning of death and hades being thrown in to the lake of fire (to refine out the garbage (the lies of the devil), revealing truth).

This is just what makes sense to me of all this, just opinion.
Pat

[marie glen]

I was wondering what is meant by the following verse:

'He in a similar manner partook of the same (nature), that by (going through) death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death - that is, the devil - and also that He might deliver and completely set free all those who through the fear of death were held in bondage throughout the whole course of their lives.'

I wonder what it means that the devil 'had the power of death'. How did he get that and what did that imply, and what is the difference for people who live now and lived then?

I think that the devil (who is the father of lies) was the author of the 'false doctrine' of an uncertain eternity (in hades?), much like some today author the false doctrine of eternity in hell.  The false doctrine being the 'power of death' that he held (similarly, the hell doctrine holds many in bondage).
The prior verses explain how (and why) Jesus came in flesh, so that he could disprove this falsehood by his own death and resurrection, revealing himself to many witnesses after his human death.  As he was human and resurrected, he showed the certainty of resurrection, and for us, that there should be no fear (bondage) about the future after death.
To me this is the meaning of death and hades being thrown in to the lake of fire (to refine out the garbage (the lies of the devil), revealing truth).

This is just what makes sense to me of all this, just opinion.
Pat

Amen!  :iagree:

And it's said he, the adversary, owns death because he owns the lie.. having put forth the very first untruth.. It's my own personal opinion that our heavenly Father has used the adversary to hurry things along.. after all, it seems to me to be true that He did not create the universe and Adam and Eve until the adversary's rebellion was fully mature.. That being so all would learn this important lesson (of good from evil / life from death?) all at once? All being endowed with thinking ability, that is, which sooner or later, includes being able to make choices, tho thankfully, veRy limited! Otherwise mightn't one wander off - away from God's Perfect choices in aLL things, now.. another, later, and another still later.. virtually taking 'for ever'?  For sooner or later I would think, every rational creature may ask 'do we really have to do all things God's way..?' I mean it could take a LONG time to convince every rational creature of the folly of such.. why not engineer things so all take the unavoidable journey/lesson all at once.. get it out of the way..
           :Peace2: that's the way my mind runs anyway..

p.s. - I do think death was much more potentially imminent in past times, what with smallpox or what not and all wars, and peasants with stones versus soldiers with spears.. and also unfortunately still is much more imminent in other places now.. Somehow the light of the Gospel and Jesus took a ride and galloped through our latter ages and produced some amount of safety for some (but now the falling away from the faith has occurred so all bets are off!..? That dragon that deceives the whole world/leads all the world astray, Rev 12)

[Ross]

1 Cor 2;7,8 " Rather we speak the wisdom of God; a wisdom that was hidden in mystery and that God had determined before the ages
                   for our glory.
                   NONE OF THE RULERS OF THIS AGE UNDERSTOOD IT, for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

Col 1;13 " For He has recued us from the tyranny of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of His beloved Son."

Col 1;18 " He is the head of the body the ecclesia. He is the beginning, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,
                in order that He might be preeminent in everything."

2 Tim 2;25,26 In meekness instructing those that might oppose you, if perhaps God might grant them repentance leading to a
                      knowledge of the truth, and they might return to soberness out of the snare of the devil, having been captured
                    alive by him in order to do his will."

John 18;36 " Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world;
                  If My kingdom were of this world my subjects would be fighting to prevent Me from being handed over to the Jews;
                  But as it is, My kingdom is not from here."

Matt 4;8,9 " Again the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour,
                  and he said to Him,
                                             ' All these I will give you if you will fall down and worship me.'

John8;44 " You belong to your father the devil, and your will is to carry out the desired of your father.
                  He was a murderer from the beginning and NEVER did stand in the truth because there is no truth in him."
                 
These all seem to point out that satan is ruler of this age; Christ knew that.
Satan has the power to use death, in this age, as a threat/stronghold over people. By covering the hope of a blessed future there is a blindness of the next age being actually the start of better life than we currently see around us. Amazing how the lack of that hope causes heaps of depression and futility.
He had the power from the beginning so that we can see the need for a saviour, and the recognition of right from wrong, along with the side-effects caused by self-centredness.
People who lived before Christ and the promise of life to come had even less hope than we do.
This mystery had been hidden from them deliberately, as first mentioned in the 1 Cor quote; they had to learn the need of the sacrifice concept in order to learn that when Christ carried out that sacrifice it would be the only one actually required to cleanse both the heavenly and the earthly kingdom.
Heb 9;24 " For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands that was a copy of the true one,
                 but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf."
vs 26  " But He has appeared once or all as a climax of the ages to put away sins by His sacrifice."

Heb 10;12-14 " But when the priest had offered a single sacrifice for sins FOR ALL TIME, He sat down at the right hand of God,
                           waiting from that time until His enemies are placed as a footstool fro His feet,
                           because by a single offering HE HAS PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME THOSE WHO ARE BEING MADE HOLY."

Now there is no further need for sacrifice since Christ has fulfilled that completely for all time; we just need to recognise the significance of what He carried out for us- the devil tries to distract us from that being done for us so comprehensively.

Heb 11;40" For God had provided something better with us in mind, so that they should not reach their goal apart from us."

So that;
         Col 3;11 " Here there is no longer Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and free,
                      but Christ is all and in all."

All part of the major plan to learn this applies to us all in our own time so that we all become of the one body-Christ.

[sheila]

love it! words of life! when Jesus come to break up the works of the devil...satan's 'stronghold on people of fear/death" was broken

for those that believe.  Perfect.......all made perfect in the spirit...perfect in the midst of a wicked generation.without spot or blemish

now.......scriptures such as 'certain men" who crept in unawares...as spots and blemishes in your love feasts.......takes on a different

aspect.    LOVE IS A PERFECT BOND OF UNION...the law as a tutour .......til LOVE is established and matured in our hearts...

   PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT ALL FEAR.......

[eaglesway]

Now there is no further need for sacrifice since Christ has fulfilled that completely for all time; we just need to recognise the significance of what He carried out for us- the devil tries to distract us from that being done for us so comprehensively.

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." 9 And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. Numbers 21

14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life John 3

31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. John 12

fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12

2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 1 Cor 2

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2

[marie glen]

   wow...  :Chinscratch: "the tyranny of darkness" - I never thought of it that way, though I think about "tyranny" / history alot. That really does say it all.. to me anyway. It seems true to me for a long time now that if you have rational creatures, and if they are not "perfect" in character, motives, etc, etc(!) there is bound to come about oppression(s) and abuses. And here the Heavenly Father is confronting and getting rid of the whole mess at once!

..."the tyranny of darkness.."

What great scriptures, tentmaker brothers and in the Lord..  :cloud9:

And amen sister Sheila! you hit the nail on the head! :gsmile:

...and to quote sister D. "God is love" and "love never fails"! ...And one day all in heaven and earth will know it (Col 1:20 & Eph 1:10).

[Abigail]

Thanks for your thoughts! I need to ponder about it and let it sink in.

[Ross]

"Once a ponder time"   is a classic start to many stories- so essential to start the ball rolling for the story to come.
Much meditation is indeed recommended.
When watering a garden the process needs to be small drops at a slow pace to be most effective- actually let the water sink in, otherwise it literally runs off and can cause chaos or damage elsewhere.

[jugghead]

I was wondering what is meant by the following verse:

'He in a similar manner partook of the same (nature), that by (going through) death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death - that is, the devil - and also that He might deliver and completely set free all those who through the fear of death were held in bondage throughout the whole course of their lives.'

I wonder what it means that the devil 'had the power of death'. How did he get that and what did that imply, and what is the difference for people who live now and lived then?

For me, it is understanding that, how can death have any power over you if you have been told by the Father it is just part of the process, a corrective process into resurrection, for how can we be resurrected if we do not die first?

What I considered the power of death by the devil is to say that death is the end of the corrective process while we are physically alive, which is what men still teach today, but Christ, putting an end to that nonsense was the proof of resurrection after death by Christ and for mankind.

But now since that is fully understood even by the ET believers, they now say that people are resurrected to be thrown into hell for all of eternity.  The serpent is the craftiest creature, every time a truth proves a lie wrong, men will come up with another idea to keep their beliefs intact, they have to, they are afraid to die, afraid for their beliefs to die not knowing it is just part of the corrective process, for how can we understand we are wrong until we truly believe what Christ DID is truth ..... die then the resurrection.

[sheila]

.... :2c:  the little children were partakers of flesh and blood and He likewise partook.  flesh and blood can not inherit.....[sin in flesh

condemned...sin entered through the transgression/partaking of tokogae]

  for it is a spiritual kingdom inheritance...and there is a law against 'mixing" or a garment of two different products woven togather.

    He spoke of the putting to death of His flesh as His return unto the Father into the spirit realm of Heaven.[very presence of God]

    Paul also spoke of this putting off of the flesh[unclothed/removed from fleshly garment] and spoke of not desiring to be unclothed

  but clothed in garments of glory/like Him..to always be with the Lord. He wasn't clear on just what manner of spiritual being that

would be.  seeing through a glass darkly he did not judge himself..as to if he was receiving the first resurrection[all men who are

appointed to die once receive first resurrection[raised up in Christ's image] He knew he did not understand fully all things at that time

  [atonement] but looked forward to seeing Him face to face and bearing His image perfectly[just spirits of men made perfect]

[marie glen]

It seems to me to be saying since the children are (the word used means share, have a share of) flesh and blood He became human also.. that by His death He would set us free from he who has the power of death, having been the original lawbreaker or breaker 'apart from God' one who passed it on (via God's plan and engineering, perhaps so all would take this journey/lesson all together at once?)

And now the devil/adversary being "the god of this world" and "the one who leads astray the world" etc, and having this leading astray power over it, he has the power of death, the result.. in a sense he is the grim reaper, though we know his hands will be empty when all is said and done..

That the imperfection which he ushered in will result in nothing.. God being Life and also Perfection, makes imperfection to be the opposite of life. The children are now part of that process.. as the wages/result of sin (missing the mark) is death (nonlife).. But He built in the solution/rescue from the foundation/beginning.. (To me it seems reasonable that being endowed with thinking ability includes the ability to make choices, but choices make us imperfect (once they disagree with any of His).. And imperfection then, is the opposite of Perfection/God/Life.. being imperfect, we are locked into imperfection, and thus also death..

And this mortal must put on immortality and the flawed flesh
                                       both the flawed, dying body sometimes called "the flesh" - and the carnal nature, very often what is referred to as "the flesh" - cannot inherit.. "Our God is a consuming fire"

I often wonder what sort of bodies Adam and Eve had? I find myself thinking they were much 'higher' bodies than what we now experience, in that they lived ten times longer, and originally had not death.. And I don't know if our new bodies received at resurrection will be like theirs were, or of even 'higher' or finer substance.. but substance I do believe.. because of verses like the earth will be made new (with no longer any seas) and how the "lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow" And how Jesus ate after resurrection and said to Thomas, reach forth your hand and touch.." Him/His wounds/scars.. (I sorta lean toward the original design of the body.. though of course it may be more ethereal, and is what is meant by "image of the heavenly" though that could be merely referring to perfection.)

I think I have a personal bias, and am hyper sensitive as to thinking the word "the flesh" echoes sometimes in ppl's understanding as matter (or misunderstood as, though likely it's only me who is misunderstanding :mshock: ).. that somehow we fell into matter and that's the problem.. and not a flawed character, that a flawed creation is the problem, though of course the creation and matter was subjected to vanity (imperfection, too, but as a result, not as a cause)

Am I rambling? :Chinscratch: :laughing7:

4561 sárksproperly, flesh ("carnal"), merely of human origin or empowerment.

[4561 /sárks ("flesh") is not always evil in Scripture. Indeed, it is used positively in relation to sexual intercourse in marriage (Eph 5:31) – as well as for the sinless human body of Jesus (Jn 1:14; 1 Jn 4:2,3). Indeed, flesh (what is physical) is necessary for the body to live out the faith the Lord works in (Gal 2:20).]

4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions) according to self – i.e. done apart from faith (independent from God's inworking). Thus what is "of the flesh (carnal)" is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem "respectable!" In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are empowered by self. This is carnal ("of the flesh") and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not transformed by God.

[sheila]

lol..Marie..no..just pondering the 'word' chewing the cud! lol!  I do it too! :dsunny:

[marie glen]

  lol.. thanks Sheila! :gsmile:

I was wondering what is meant by the following verse:

'He in a similar manner partook of the same (nature), that by (going through) death He might bring to nought and make of no effect him who had the power of death - that is, the devil - and also that He might deliver and completely set free all those who through the fear of death were held in bondage throughout the whole course of their lives.'

I wonder what it means that the devil 'had the power of death'. How did he get that and what did that imply, and what is the difference for people who live now and lived then?

I was thinking about this, when reading Galatians, in terms of jail.. which I guess would make the adversary our jailer - when 'in the flesh'/"human nature w/o the Lord"-according to interlinear concordances.. And he was our prosecutor and judge!

But the heavenly Father came and paid our bail, payed our fine / served our sentence (via and through Jesus). And not only that, but He then adopted us!

[That was "the law".. ("all subjected to vanity"/ born imperfect, "that He may have mercy on all".. "His mercy endures forever.." psalms) "delivered by angels, and given to Israel through the hands of a mediator (Moses).. it is the writing against us" - the handwriting on the wall, "the declaration of our guilt/ crimes, but which was nailed to the cross with Jesus and is now null and void.
     And now we have been baptized into Jesus and have put Him on, clothed ourselves with Him, and we are sons of the Heavenly Father! And are of His household and are an heir of all His promises!

From jailed for my crimes, to daughter and heir of His household! :faint:

    Man i LOVE those legality letters of the New Testament (contract)! romans, galatians, and hebrews..]

     :Peace2: :HeartThrob: :cloud9: