When you think of lot . . .Abraham's nephew . . . what kind of person do you perceive him to be?
my knee jerk reaction probably going back to sunday school as a kid is he was kind of greedy, "worldly", but I believe he is called righteous.
Absolutely right. But that's what blew my mind . . .if you read the story about Lot, you find he was self-absorbed, he was not a God-fearing man as Abraham was. He was worldly, he chose the worst city to be his home. And from a pattern perspective, it's much darker than that. When the visitors come, the scene opens up with him sitting at the gate of the city. Much like seeing the serpent in the tree of Knowledge. Gate's refer to authority. for me, this is a picture of what is "in" Lot. The two cities . . .Sodom and Gomorrah, the identity of them has always been connected to evil. The implication of what was transpiring that night was on the surface, what appears to be a city of homosexuality. Which for me, is merely evidence that there's been a perversion of intimacy.
So . . . for me, because Lot is sitting at the gate of this city, it is a pattern showing that the city itself is Lot's identity. It's a picture of the nature in Lot. But not just Lot . . it's a picture of carnality in US. Inwardly, we are the authority over the city in us . . .and in us is darkness and deceit. We're not born in light, we're born in death.
So in all of that mess . . .the perception of Hebrews is, that Lot was righteous. my question is . .what was it that made Lot righteous? Because when we find out what made "him" righteous, we'll find our own true identity there as well.
Quote from: Nathan on April 15, 2011, 06:54:53 PM
Absolutely right. But that's what blew my mind . . .if you read the story about Lot, you find he was self-absorbed, he was not a God-fearing man as Abraham was. He was worldly, he chose the worst city to be his home. And from a pattern perspective, it's much darker than that. When the visitors come, the scene opens up with him sitting at the gate of the city. Much like seeing the serpent in the tree of Knowledge. Gate's refer to authority. for me, this is a picture of what is "in" Lot. The two cities . . .Sodom and Gomorrah, the identity of them has always been connected to evil. The implication of what was transpiring that night was on the surface, what appears to be a city of homosexuality. Which for me, is merely evidence that there's been a perversion of intimacy.
So . . . for me, because Lot is sitting at the gate of this city, it is a pattern showing that the city itself is Lot's identity. It's a picture of the nature in Lot. But not just Lot . . it's a picture of carnality in US. Inwardly, we are the authority over the city in us . . .and in us is darkness and deceit. We're not born in light, we're born in death.
So in all of that mess . . .the perception of Hebrews is, that Lot was righteous. my question is . .what was it that made Lot righteous? Because when we find out what made "him" righteous, we'll find our own true identity there as well.
Good post Nate--
The pattern keeps repeating itself , continually showing the carnal mind, then being saved--
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
:icon_flower:
Yeah, the original deal was, if they could find 50 people, they'd spare the city. 50 is the number of Jubilee . . . But they couldn't find Jubilee anywhwere in the city. Abraham dickered him down to finding just 10 . . .the number of law . . but not Levitical law, "God's" law. LOVE God and LOVE your neighbor . . ."that" law. And they couldn't even find that.
But the bomb for me was . . .it wasn't because Lot made a covenant with God that he was declared as righteous. The New Testament ALWAYS sees past the obvious . . .sees past the carnality in men . . .reading the story, Lot didn't manifest an ounce of righteousness . . .yet the New Testament declares him as a righteous guy. Same with Job . . .he was nothing short of a major complainer . . .but if you just went buy the New Testaments perception of him he comes out smelling like a rose. Why?
For one, the New Testament sees everything through love. Secondly . . .Lot wasn't spared because he personally made a covenant . . .he was spared because he was related to Abraham . . .the covenant is in the seed. The same reason why Hagar was just as blessed as Sarah was with concieving children. The covenant is in the blood line . . .God was honoring his covenant in Abraham by virtually taking Lot by the hand and walking him out of his carnality.
The word of God is sharper . . .you know the rest . . .but the story of Lot is an Old Testament story of that New Testament truth. God separated Lot from Sodom . . .spirit from flesh . . .bone from marrow . . .and Lot didn't have a clue of the covenant Abraham had made, yet he reaped the full benefits from it.
That's just so deep . . . .Scripture speaks about "you and your entire household" will be saved . . . it goes on and on . . .just awesome.
Quote from: Nathan.Scripture speaks about "you and your entire household" will be saved .
:thumbsup: One every generation here.
Genesis 22:18
In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
If I recall, sitting at the gate of a city in those days implied leadership, or elder-respective status. Again if I recall, if Lot was sitting at the gates of Sodom, he was a respected, known, governing force in the city.
Apparently the men that came to rape his visitors didn't see him that way. They stated that he was not a part of them, yet he believed he had the right to judge them.
No matter, what I was getting at is the spiritual implications on how great it is that we are rescued by relationship rather than by repetition of words.
QuoteThat's just so deep . . . .Scripture speaks about "you and your entire household" will be saved . . . it goes on and on . . .just awesome
:boyheart:
Enjoyed the FLOW bro- :icon_flower:
They stated that he was not a part of them, yet he believed he had the right to judge them.
tis the Nature of the BEAST to Judge [ satan is the accuser The JUDGE being our nature-] having come to understand that the Serpent is the FATHER of of the beast[ SATAN] - wow thatll shake some feathers- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 15, 2011, 08:19:19 PM
They stated that he was not a part of them, yet he believed he had the right to judge them.
tis the Nature of the BEAST to Judge [ satan is the accuser The JUDGE being our nature-] having come to understand that the Serpent is the FATHER of of the beast[ SATAN] - wow thatll shake some feathers- :icon_flower:
:offtopic: :offtopic:
again Taffy - pack it in :Shoot:
:icon_flower:
There goes Taffy pulling down more walls of Jericho!
If God can look pasts Lot's weakness and rebellions and still see his covenant that makes him righteous, I suppose I can at least "try" to do the same with Taf . . .eh??
That's the idea. The covenant is upheld by God. He's sworn on Himself. He's made the covenant between himself and himself.
There is only one everlasting covenant. It's everlasting because God himself fulfills it.
Thank you Lord Jesus.
We cast our crowns before you.
13 When God made his promise to Abraham, he took an oath to keep it. But there was no one greater than himself to take an oath by. So he took his oath by making an appeal to himself.
14 He said, "I will certainly bless you. I will give you many children."—(Genesis 22:17) 15 Abraham was patient while he waited. Then he received what God promised him.
16 People take oaths by someone greater than themselves. An oath makes a promise certain. It puts an end to all arguing. 17 So God took an oath when he made his promise. He wanted to make it very clear that his purpose does not change. He wanted those who would receive what was promised to know that.
18 God took an oath so we would have good reason not to give up. We have run away from everything else to take hold of the hope offered to us in God's promise. So God gave his promise and his oath. Those two things can't change. He couldn't lie about them.
--Heb 6
20 The change of priests was made with an oath. Others became priests without any oath. 21 But Jesus became a priest with an oath. God said to him,
"The Lord has taken an oath and made a promise.
He will not change his mind. He has said,
'You are a priest forever.' " —(Psalm 110:4)
22 Because of that oath, Jesus makes the promise of a better covenant certain.
23 There were many priests in Levi's family line. Death kept them from continuing in office. 24 But Jesus lives forever. So he always holds the office of priest. 25 People now come to God through him. And he is able to save them completely and for all time. Jesus lives forever. He prays for them.
26 A high priest like that meets our need. He is holy, pure and without blame. He isn't like other people. He does not sin. He is lifted high above the heavens.
27 He isn't like the other high priests. They need to offer sacrifices day after day. First they bring offerings for their own sins. Then they do it for the sins of the people. But Jesus gave one sacrifice for the sins of the people. He gave it once and for all time. He did it by offering himself.
28 The law appoints men who are weak to be high priests. But God's oath came after the law. The oath appointed the Son. He has been made perfect forever.
-Heb 7
Quote from: Molly on April 15, 2011, 09:17:59 PM
13 When God made his promise to Abraham, he took an oath to keep it. But there was no one greater than himself to take an oath by. So he took his oath by making an appeal to himself.
14 He said, "I will certainly bless you. I will give you many children."—(Genesis 22:17) 15 Abraham was patient while he waited. Then he received what God promised him.
16 People take oaths by someone greater than themselves. An oath makes a promise certain. It puts an end to all arguing. 17 So God took an oath when he made his promise. He wanted to make it very clear that his purpose does not change. He wanted those who would receive what was promised to know that.
18 God took an oath so we would have good reason not to give up. We have run away from everything else to take hold of the hope offered to us in God's promise. So God gave his promise and his oath. Those two things can't change. He couldn't lie about them.
--Heb 6
:icon_flower:
20 Our Lord Jesus is the great Shepherd of the sheep. The God who gives peace brought him back from the dead. He did it because of the blood of the eternal covenant.
May God 21 supply you with everything good. Then you can do what he wants. May he do in us what is pleasing to him. We can do it only with the help of Jesus Christ. Give him glory for ever and ever. Amen.
--Heb 13
While we're at it . . .beloved servant made a comment about casting our crowns . . .
For me . . . the fact that Jesus had a crown of thorns forced upon his head has a greater significance than ignorant men mocking the idea that Jesus is King of the Jews.
I see man like an hour glass. The place that is the narrowest spot is where the mind is located. Everything is forced to pass through this filter before it can rest in the lower regions of itself. Literally everything we come into contact with in our 5 senses passes through this filter. It constricts, and restrains the tangible things within it's glass walls. Everything is connected to the mind. The weapons of warfare we're given are weapons that come from outside the confines of our glass-wall boundaries. Faith has no place within the sands of our experiences. Time is ALWAYS present in our sifting, filtering minds. Everything "must" have a measurement, an end, a beginning . . .nothing is eternal in these glass-walled mindes. When we come to the end of an acheivement, we immediately flip over and begin another process of constricting evaluation and restraining conclusions.
The crown on Jesus head represents the constricting force of the cursed mind. Thorns represent a curse and the fact that it's on Jesus head shows that it's enveloped his mind. He wore the curse into the tomb of death. But something happened between when he took his last breath and when he took is first. The place of least acceptance became the greatest. Time could no longer be measured, nor could it govern. Crowns are still evident. But their appearance has changed. They've gone from thorns to gold. From the curse to priceless purity. Casting my crown now is not throwing away a curse, but it's acknowledging and honoring the source of infinite, priceless purity. Let Freedom reign!!!
:cloud9: Another blessed thread, my brethren :thumbsup:
I'll probably be adding on to this thread from week to week as our study is taking us through this area for a while. But I was kinda curious if anyone had anything on "why" it was a pillar of salt that Lot's wife was turned into? Any takers on that?
Quote from: Nathan on April 21, 2011, 08:45:55 PMBut I was kinda curious if anyone had anything on "why" it was a pillar of salt that Lot's wife was turned into? Any takers on that?
There are huge salt deposits in that area. (even pillars.) Also many marble sized pieces of pure sulphur.
Could be wrong but 'pillar of salt' can also mean 'stuck in salt'. She was not only looking back but she was also behind Lot (a long way) Likely she was caught in a dust cloud. Personnaly I think a heap is likely an equally good translation. BTW Lot means covering.
I'm aware the above is to earthly for you. :winkgrin:
Salt is purifying. Those people where literally salted with fire.
How about: Run to God, don't look back or you will be part of LoF.
Salty article. (http://www.biblemeanings.info/Words/Natural/Salt.htm)
Spiritual meaning. (http://www.biblemeanings.info/Bible/Genesis/ch19,v26-m.htm)
Perhaps that act of turning back was that her heart was still seasoned with the life of Sodom and she really did not want to leave. And that maybe a truth today with some.
Not using the idea of the salt that seasons our faith and believing spoke of in the NT.
Another "man=spirit; woman=soul" picture for me here . . . .with his wife representing his soul, there was still a desire, a pull . . .she didn't want to be going where she was led. The instructions were for them to go up into the mountains . . .which Lot was too afraid to go . . .another sign of inward carnality influencing spiritual freedom. He reasoned with God to go and hide in a "small" city (zoar means little). These guys were spiritually a mess from the get-go. Sodom and Gomorrah is a picture of the perversions of intimacy going on inside of Lot with God . . . .but the beauty of this whole thing is according to the New Testament . . .God still saw Lot as righteous . . .not because Lot lived it, but because of his relationship with Abraham, through which the covenant was made with the inward seed.
Lot's wife, being a picture of his mind, couldn't bring herself to be led by angels . . .by God's message . . .but she desired to be identified in the filth of perverted relationship. And for me, the salt part is, the moment she turned, was the moment she lost her savor. The carnal mind is not our identity in this earth . . .we are to be the salt of the earth are we not? Men use salt to preserve dead meat . . .I don't think that's what God's intentions are for us in being the salt of the earth.
Salt gives flavor . . .we're to be food . . .Jesus said until we drink of his blood and eat of his flesh . . .but what does salt "cause" in another? Does it not make another "thirst" for water? "That's" what I see our purpose to be, not to just add flavor to something, but to make other's thirsty for life. But when the salt has lost it's savor . . it becomes usless to God . . . .Lot's wife, because she longed for flesh, she lost her savor . . .because our minds desire carnality, they too lose their savor . . .
Making any sense ???
I see that except for the "Another "man=spirit; woman=soul" but alas that is just me. I like what you said, it reasons well for me.