Tentmaker Forum

Many people with questions about universal salvation may ask about Hebrews 6, where it says that it is impossible for those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to repent if they backslide. Let's take the larger context into consideration. My thoughts on this passage will be informed on my beliefs about what they scriptures say about judgment and how it fits into God's plan of salvation.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (aionios krima - judgment of the age).

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

A few things to note about this passage. In particular notice the "if God permit" phrase. That is very important. It shows God in complete control. After all, Jesus said this:

Mark 10
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

So if we look at Hebrews 6 in context, we see God in complete control, not saying that anything is impossible with him. To harmonize scripture, it shows that it is impossible for MAN to renew them unto repentance, only because God does not permit that if they crucify his son afresh by their actions.

The wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteousness of men, in that God turns them over to a reprobate mind to be judged, he will "turn them over a reprobate mind" so that they "receive in themselves that recompense for their error." (Romans 1:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:27-28&version=KJV)). For some, God will send strong delusion to believe a lie and be judged by it (2 Thess 2:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians+2:10-12&version=KJV)). When God turns anyone over to their own reprobate mind and sends strong delusion, they won't be renewed unto repentance by man's efforts.

Of course, ETers think this is talking about "hell" because of the word "burned." However, they ignore the fact that the entire verse is speaking in metaphor: "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." Why are they so ready to accept the "thorns and briars" as a metaphor, but not the "burning?"

Clearly this metaphorical burning is speaking about backslidden Christians, not the unconverted. That term "thorns and briars" has another scriptural connection:

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

Yes, the whole phrase in Hebrews 6 is a metaphor. When God turns anyone over to a reprobate mind, he is turning them over to the destruction of their own sin to be humbled by it. I discuss this in more detail about a paper regarding the Judgment of the World (http://www.mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html). The purpose is to negate their pride, to humble them like Prodigal Sons.

That is why "their end is to be burned." Jesus talked about a burning at the "consummation of the age":

Matthew  13
49 So shall it be at the end of the world (sunteleia ho aion - consummation of the age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is in relation to the Kingdom of God as a net which captures good fish and bad fish. At the end of the age, the fisherman will separate out the good fish from the bad fish. He is not talking about an eternity in literal fire, but for some they will be turned over to a reprobate mind, for wickedness is LIKE a fire which burns up the briars and thorns. This is a "aionios krima" a judgment of the age, not an eternal punishment in literal fire.

It is a judgment as unto the Prodigal Son who met his own end in a fiery furnace of his own wickedness, a judgment that his father turned him over unto, by supplying him with the metaphorical noose. And, since NOTHING is impossible with God, only with man, God will use this judgment to humble all those who have had pleasure in unrighteousness and bring them to a place to call out for a Savior.

Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2013, 06:00:59 PM
Many people with questions about universal salvation may ask about Hebrews 6, where it says that it is impossible for those who were made partakers of the Holy Ghost to repent if they backslide. Let's take the larger context into consideration. My thoughts on this passage will be informed on my beliefs about what they scriptures say about judgment and how it fits into God's plan of salvation.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (aionios krima - judgment of the age).

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

A few things to note about this passage. In particular notice the "if God permit" phrase. That is very important. It shows God in complete control. After all, Jesus said this:

Mark 10
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

So if we look at Hebrews 6 in context, we see God in complete control, not saying that anything is impossible with him. To harmonize scripture, it shows that it is impossible for MAN to renew them unto repentance, only because God does not permit that if they crucify his son afresh by their actions.

The wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteousness of men, in that God turns them over to a reprobate mind to be judged, he will "turn them over a reprobate mind" so that they "receive in themselves that recompense for their error." (Romans 1:27-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201:27-28&version=KJV)). For some, God will send strong delusion to believe a lie and be judged by it (2 Thess 2:10-12 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians+2:10-12&version=KJV)). When God turns anyone over to their own reprobate mind and sends strong delusion, they won't be renewed unto repentance by man's efforts.

Of course, ETers think this is talking about "hell" because of the word "burned." However, they ignore the fact that the entire verse is speaking in metaphor: "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned." Why are they so ready to accept the "thorns and briars" as a metaphor, but not the "burning?"

Clearly this metaphorical burning is speaking about backslidden Christians, not the unconverted. That term "thorns and briars" has another scriptural connection:

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

Yes, the whole phrase in Hebrews 6 is a metaphor. When God turns anyone over to a reprobate mind, he is turning them over to the destruction of their own sin to be humbled by it. I discuss this in more detail about a paper regarding the Judgment of the World (http://www.mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.html). The purpose is to negate their pride, to humble them like Prodigal Sons.

That is why "their end is to be burned." Jesus talked about a burning at the "consummation of the age":

Matthew  13
49 So shall it be at the end of the world (sunteleia ho aion - consummation of the age): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is in relation to the Kingdom of God as a net which captures good fish and bad fish. At the end of the age, the fisherman will separate out the good fish from the bad fish. He is not talking about an eternity in literal fire, but for some they will be turned over to a reprobate mind, for wickedness is LIKE a fire which burns up the briars and thorns. This is a "aionios krima" a judgment of the age, not an eternal punishment in literal fire.

It is a judgment as unto the Prodigal Son who met his own end in a fiery furnace of his own wickedness, a judgment that his father turned him over unto, by supplying him with the metaphorical noose. And, since NOTHING is impossible with God, only with man, God will use this judgment to humble all those who have had pleasure in unrighteousness and bring them to a place to call out for a Savior.

"4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

"This description applies only to those who participated in the Pentecostal blessings. They were enlightened, they' tasted the celestial gratuity, they became partakers of holy spirit, and God's declaration, and they only experienced the powers of the kingdom eon, and many of them fell aside. These blessings were based on their repentance, or change of mind, which was induced largely by the miracles which they saw. When the kingdom failed to appear, and its powers vanished, their repentance went also. Hence the impossibility of renewing it, for the means which produced it were no longer in evidence. Such a course is not possible in a day of grace, such as we live in. In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 340,341) 

....I see it as a Blaspheming of the Holy spirit. Just as in Ananais and Saphira's case.

  also...Judas..and Saul[Saul prophesied..when spirit come upon him..Saul annointed..then

rejected. David appinted in his stead.....just as Judas chosen then lost his place.......

   to me...all these accounts show..the judgement of the angels that did not keep their positions...

    that followed satan..left their estates in heaven..and cme to the earth...........

   we also see this same judgement on Adam..that was given dominion on the earth..was in

the garden...and cast out of it..

    man bears both images..the image of the corrupt one[satan and his angels who lose out]

and the image of the incorruptible one from heaven[Faithful and True angelic Hosts.......

   one image is of our death..the other of life.

   ....these things are man-i-fest ed[or food for thought from

God..to  teach His children]/showbread.  all things are yours..whether death or life.......
.

I understand that the Concordant group teaches cessation of the gifts of the Spirit, but I don't see any teaching in the Bible where the Spirit is not given to the believer in this modern time. If that were true, then we are NOT the seed of Abraham because we are not inheritors of the promise. I am open minded about the Spirit manifestation in regards to miracles etc. But I do not believe that the Scripture teaches that the Spirit is not given along with the gift of the measure of faith to today's believers.

Here is what I see Paul teaching in regards to the day of Grace in regard to salvation.

Ephesians 2:1-10
And you hath he quickened (brought to life), who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us (brought us to life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In this scripture, GRACE is associated with "being made alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved)." We are made alive together with Christ and therefore by Grace ye are saved, not of your works. The Holy Spirit does the saving work.

Phi 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out (Greek - perform outwardly) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

That's the substitutionary righteousness that saves us from trespasses and sin: for it is GOD in YOU both to will and to WORK his purpose. This what Paul meant when he said "saved by grace" to be made alive with Christ, together so that God can work within us to save us from sin. That is why Paul wants us to perform outwardly the salvation which begins inwardly. That is why it says, God works IN you.

Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to his mercy he saved (healed) us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Notice that we were at ONE TIME foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving lusts, but were saved by the washing and renewing of the Spirit. Here is more detail about that washing.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I am not sure what that scripture has to do with the Concordant view of grace and salvation. Paul never mentions the "second resurrection." He focused all his teaching on how by grace, we are made alive together with Christ, so that Christ could purify a people unto himself a people zealous of good works, not abandoning them. His teaching revolved around salvation FROM sin in this present age, and I see no reason to believe that some age has passed which has invalidated this above teaching for the modern day Christian.

I agree with the Concordant publishing concern that we are in a "day of Grace" and I have just posted scripture which informs us as to what Paul taught about this day of Grace and I see no reason to assume that his teaching on grace was for the First Century Christians alone. I see no teaching by Paul that the above descriptions of Grace and its purpose would be changed after the passing of those first Christians.

If people are dead in transgressions today, God has mercy upon them by transforming them by his Spirit in the above way. However, those who crucify the son afresh through lack of renewed repentance have a judgment awaiting...

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 12:15:44 AM
I understand that the Concordant group teaches cessation of the gifts of the Spirit,

If there are no gifts of the HS then Jesus will not have  a bride because He never was betrothed....

:2c:

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

From Spiritual Gifts for Today

"Instead of healing we are given grace for our infirmities."

Right. Exactly. Grace for our infirmities.


Phi 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out (Greek - perform outwardly) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to his mercy he saved (healed) us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Does Mr. Knoch deal with Titus 3:3-7 and Titus 2:11-14? Not sure. If you have a paper to link about that, I would like to examine it.

Grieve not the Holy Spirit. Quench not the Holy Spirit. Do not spite the Spirit of grace whereby you sealed unto the day of redemption. What is it when you come together? One has psalm, one has revelation, one has a prophesy, one has a tongue, another has an interpretation.

Firstly apostles, then prophets, then teachers, then workers of miracles.....

When He ascended He gave gifts unto men......apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists for the equipping of the saints for the work of service for the building up of the body of Christ till we all attain the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulnes of the son of God.

I have seen the gifts of the Spirit working and when it is in order it is a beautiful thing. Thats just a testimony- not meant to convince anyone of anything but,

I was saved by a direct supernatural revelation of Jesus- I spent the first three or four years of my walk with Christ in a world filled with manifestations of the Spirit and many miracles, healings and other gifts through me and around me. There are ebbs and there are wavs..... but thr Holy Spirit is still active where faith and the unity of the body of Christ provide a tabernacle for God's indwelling and manifest glory.

There's a lot of phony immitations too :o)

To me this whole thing is not about the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. I would like know if at least Martin Zender and company believe that we even HAVE the Spirit in the first place. And if so, what do they think the Spirit is for? Certainly NOT simply for the physical miracles alone, but to be QUICKENED together with Christ (by Grace ye are saved)...

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 01:04:09 AM
From Spiritual Gifts for Today

"Instead of healing we are given grace for our infirmities."

Right. Exactly. Grace for our infirmities.


Phi 2:12
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out (Greek - perform outwardly) your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Titus 3:3-7
For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to his mercy he saved (healed) us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Does Mr. Knoch deal with Titus 3:3-7 and Titus 2:11-14? Not sure. If you have a paper to link about that, I would like to examine it.

"11 For the saving grace of God made its advent to all humanity,
12 training us that, disowning irreverence and worldly desires, we should be living sanely and justly and devoutly in the current eon,
13 anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,
14 Who gives Himself for us, that He should be redeeming us from all lawlessness and be cleansing for Himself a people to be about Him, zealous for ideal acts." (Titus 2:11-14)

"11 The saving grace of God, properly appreciated, has no equal as a means for training God's saints to live acceptably in His sight even in the midst of the abounding evil of this eon. It softens the heart, and attracts the will, and provides the power for putting its precepts into practice. The law was not so. Its demands withered the arm that would fulfill it. In some measure God's grace enables us to anticipate the overwhelming bliss which will be brought to us at His glorious advent, which will mark the end of sin and suffering for His saints.

14 The ransom of Christ has a present power. Lawlessness is that basic conception of sin in which it is viewed as a departure from the normal and natural course of things. The ransom Of Christ will eventually restore us into that ideal condition which conformity to the laws of the universe produces. At present this takes the form of zeal for good deeds." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 329,330)

"3 For we also were once foolish, stubborn, deceived, slaves of various desires and gratifications, leading a life in malice and envy, detestable, hating one another.
4 Yet when the kindness and fondness for humanity of our Saviour, God, made its advent,
5 not for works which are wrought in righteousness which we do, but according to His mercy, He saves us, through the bath of renascence and renewal of holy spirit,
6 which He pours out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Saviour,
7 that, being justified in that One's grace, we may be becoming enjoyers, in expectation, of the allotment of life eonian." (Titus 3:3-7)

"3 The emphatic we, repeated in the fifth verse, suggests that the apostle is now referring to himself as one of the Circumcision—those who, indeed, ought to have kept the law and who thought that their salvation depended on their righteousness, but who needed to be regenerated and renewed by the holy Spirit, as the Lord taught Nicodemus (Jn.3:5), according to His mercy.

5 The Septuagint uses this word loutron twice for a bath in the Song of Solomon (4:2, 6:6), but renders laver by another form, louter, in all of its occurrences. Hence it is evident that here it is not the instrument which contained the water, but the element itself which is a figure of renascence. Though literally regeneration, the word is always used in a much looser sense of any renewal, much like our word renascence." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 330)

http://concordant.org/version/CLNT_Intro.htm
http://concordant.org/expohtml/ConcordantCommentary/CC00.htm
http://concordant.org/online/index.html

Quote"11 The saving grace of God, properly appreciated, has no equal as a means for training God's saints to live acceptably in His sight even in the midst of the abounding evil of this eon. It softens the heart, and attracts the will, and provides the power for putting its precepts into practice. The law was not so. Its demands withered the arm that would fulfill it. In some measure God's grace enables us to anticipate the overwhelming bliss which will be brought to us at His glorious advent, which will mark the end of sin and suffering for His saints.

Great, I agree. Therefore, I see no reason that this admonition would not apply to the saints for today. Paul's teaching on Grace has not changed, and there is no scripture to say therefore that falling away from Grace would therefore not necessitate a judgment in the day of the Lord:

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

John 15
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 01:25:42 AM
To me this whole thing is not about the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. I would like know if at least Martin Zender and company believe that we even HAVE the Spirit in the first place. And if so, what do they think the Spirit is for? Certainly NOT simply for the physical miracles alone, but to be QUICKENED together with Christ (by Grace ye are saved)...

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CheckYourPanoply/Panoply016.html

QuoteLet us not confuse our spiritual warfare with wicked spirits, with God's use of them in disciplining our flesh. He would have us strong in spirit, but He may also find it best to make us infirm in flesh.

Romans 6
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under GRACE.

And you know all about what Grace does, right?

"12 Let not Sin, then, be reigning in your mortal body, for you to be obeying its lusts.
13 Nor yet be presenting your members, as implements of injustice, to Sin, but present yourselves to God as if alive from among the dead, and your members as implements of righteousness to God." (Romans 6:12,13)

"12 A realization of our death to sin and life in Christ will give us power to cope with sin, always remembering that sin cannot bring us into disfavor because of the superexceeding grace." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 236)

The verse does not say that sin cannot bring us into disfavor. It says that sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under Grace.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I'll just keep repeating that scripture over and over and over until the end of time....

It's no different than what John taught

1 John 3:5-9
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

He is teaching sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under Grace.

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 02:12:51 AM
The verse does not say that sin cannot bring us into disfavor. It says that sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under Grace.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (healing) hath appeared to all men, Teaching (Greek - paiduo - chastening, scourging) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I'll just keep repeating that scripture over and over and over until the end of time....

It seems you disagree with the commentary of one verse and have some other favorite verses that you want to meditate on continuously. You have the links for the commentary if you're interested in searching any other information. I'm not interested in debating the commentary. I forget why this even relates to your original post, but I replied to it. If you're debating something, I don't know what it is. I'm not interested in debating your original post or whatever it is you're debating now anyway. So I guess you need to find a willing opponent, brother, if that's what you're interested in.

I am ready to harmonize ALL the epistles in the new testament to show you that there is no Jew and no Gentile in the body that all share one Gospel and one Living Water. Any time you want to talk about it, let me know.

"27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)

"27 Baptism, as practiced in Paul's early ministry, was a symbol of unity with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. "As many as" shows that not all the Galatians had been baptized. Nevertheless the truth of unity with Christ held for all, for in Him all physical distinctions vanish. In service, or in the Lord, the slave was still a slave, the sexes were still recognized, but in Christ, by faith, all have the same high place of privilege. All are entitled to the promise and the righteousness which comes by faith in God." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 282)

Here is the righteousness which comes by faith: For it is God in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Acts 19
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

The manner in which this links back to the original post is that we are in a day of Grace, but Grace causes us to abandon ungodliness. If those who have tasted of the Spirit crucify the Son afresh by abandoning their repentance of sin by Grace, then all that is left for the briars and thorns is to be burned...

There is no scriptural basis to believe that we now live in an age of Grace different from what Paul taught in regards to abandoning ungodliness and the importance of performing outwardly your salvation with fear and trembling.

I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Paul was speaking metaphorically in more ways than one.

Yes, man can have a change of heart. Be always on guard we are told

Mar 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Note Pauls words here: The Word that was SOWN in their hearts.

Now how is it that truth given by Spirit can be discarded like a piece of trash by a mere human, when we are told Satan is needed to TAKE IT AWAY?

What of the casual passer-by that hears the truth, likes it and is all gun-ho only to lose interest almost as quick?
   
Luk 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Well such as these suffer as bad as fate. What Chance does either group have that are not wearing the full suit of armor of the Spirit have?

On whose instructions is Satan acting?

More than likely Paul was emphasizing the need to stand guard and to be always alert. Isn't Satan waiting still, anyone with a complacent heart?

Nothing is what it seems.....

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 04:09:36 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Whoa, there is a serious misunderstanding, and if that is on my part then I apologize. In no way to I believe that a belief in cessation amounts to ungodliness.

Here was your quote in response to my OP

QuoteIn place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last."

All the scriptures I have posted until now have shown that Grace is for keeping us in a state of continual repentance from sin. Grace does not replace "repentance and pardon" it is a continual causation of repentance in the believer. The Holy Spirit FEEDS our roots so that we continue in a state of repentance from sin by teaching us to abandon ungodliness and live holy in this present world.

That has nothing to do with the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. Cessation is a hot topic issue, but I think, not the point of what I am saying. HAVING the Holy Spirit is the point, whether or not it manifests in those ways. And if we have the Spirit, everything Paul taught about Grace, again is in accordance to a maintaining of repentance, not to be replaced by some other form of Grace for this present time.

What this shows is that in no way was Hebrews 6 written as an admonition limited to 1st Century Christians but continues in application to modern day Christians.

Quote from: JulieTang84More than likely Paul was emphasizing the need to stand guard and to be always alert. Isn't Satan waiting still, anyone with a complacent heart?

Yes, I think so. I think everything in the Gospel speaks to the heart of man.

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 08:47:44 AM

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 04:09:36 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Whoa, there is a serious misunderstanding, and if that is on my part then I apologize. In no way to I believe that a belief in cessation amounts to ungodliness.

Here was your quote in response to my OP

QuoteIn place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last."

All the scriptures I have posted until now have shown that Grace is for keeping us in a state of continual repentance from sin. Grace does not replace "repentance and pardon" it is a continual causation of repentance in the believer. The Holy Spirit FEEDS our roots so that we continue in a state of repentance from sin by teaching us to abandon ungodliness and live holy in this present world.

That has nothing to do with the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. Cessation is a hot topic issue, but I think, not the point of what I am saying. HAVING the Holy Spirit is the point, whether or not it manifests in those ways. And if we have the Spirit, everything Paul taught about Grace, again is in accordance to a maintaining of repentance, not to be replaced by some other form of Grace for this present time.

What this shows is that in no way was Hebrews 6 written as an admonition limited to 1st Century Christians but continues in application to modern day Christians.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html

Repentance is more than just lip service. I have someone very dear to me who is a very bitter person. He is a Jesus lover and wears Jesus T-Shirts always, yet is clueless. His words regarding repentance are empty. For he gladly holds many in contempt for 'wrongs' done against him, for the knives they have stuck his heart with. He is a very bitter, lost child who has not even the concept of love and forgiveness. For nothing can be forgiven unless re-compensation comes first.

His concept of forgiveness is as flawed as his concept of repentance. Before one can repent anything, one MUST first look deep inside one's heart and empty of all the vial, deceitful cancers it contains. True repentance comes from the heart, and never from the lips. Repentance isn't saying: "God please forgive me for ......(whatever.) It's not something done daily or even as needed. Rather, until one empties themselves of everything other than Love, they are bargaining with God by saying in effect: "God I will give you "this much" if you give me what I want and if you are lucky, I will trade with again sometime.

Repentance is NOT a commodity, it is a state of being. One MUST realize that without the LOVE they are nothing. That no matter how hard "THEY" try, they will always fall short of the mark.

Repentance IS allowing the Spirit to work in an through oneself; and living in the light of truth. A light that can only shine when one has utterly forgiven oneself and emptied themselves of every hurt.

Living IN Repentance keeps us Close to Father

A. E. Knoch sums all of this up perfectly

Let us not look back and vaunt ourselves with, "I prayed, I repented, I was baptized, and I—," but let us rather shout with the Apostle "no longer I, but CHRIST!" If I had a hand in my salvation it must needs contain a flaw, for I find failure fills everything I do. But if Christ alone deserves the crown, then all like Him is perfect and immutable. Some who repented fell away (Heb.6:6) and it was impossible to renew them again to repentance. Therefore the apostle exhorts them to leave repentance from dead works (Heb.6:1).

It is God's purpose that in all things Christ should have the preeminence and that all fullness should dwell in Him. He is God's fullness. He is our fullness. Both God and His saints are mutually and completely furnished in Christ (Col.1:19,20; 2:9,10).

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)

"18 The parallel here is perfect. Adam's one offense is counteracted by Christ's one just award. The act of Adam actually affects all mankind. So Christ's work, eventually, must also actually justify all mankind. This cannot be during the eons, hence will not be fully accomplished until after the eons are past, when all are made alive in Christ (1 Cor.15:22). If Adam's offense only gave each one an opportunity to sin, so that some become sinners and others not, then we might say that Christ's work brings justification to all subject to their acceptance. But we must acknowledge that man has no choice in becoming a sinner, thus also will it be through the work of Christ. Both are actual and universal.

19 The contrast here is between one and many, not between the many and the all of the previous statement. The many here are the all of verse eighteen." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 235)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 02:46:06 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 08:47:44 AM

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 04:09:36 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Whoa, there is a serious misunderstanding, and if that is on my part then I apologize. In no way to I believe that a belief in cessation amounts to ungodliness.

Here was your quote in response to my OP

QuoteIn place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last."

All the scriptures I have posted until now have shown that Grace is for keeping us in a state of continual repentance from sin. Grace does not replace "repentance and pardon" it is a continual causation of repentance in the believer. The Holy Spirit FEEDS our roots so that we continue in a state of repentance from sin by teaching us to abandon ungodliness and live holy in this present world.

That has nothing to do with the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. Cessation is a hot topic issue, but I think, not the point of what I am saying. HAVING the Holy Spirit is the point, whether or not it manifests in those ways. And if we have the Spirit, everything Paul taught about Grace, again is in accordance to a maintaining of repentance, not to be replaced by some other form of Grace for this present time.

What this shows is that in no way was Hebrews 6 written as an admonition limited to 1st Century Christians but continues in application to modern day Christians.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html

Honestly Tom, it is really difficult to have a conversation with web links. Are you avoiding me? Can you just answer my simple question?

Do you believe that believers in Christ receive his Spirit in this day?

Quote from: JulieTang84 on November 10, 2013, 03:42:17 PM
Let us not look back and vaunt ourselves with, "I prayed, I repented, I was baptized, and I—," but let us rather shout with the Apostle "no longer I, but CHRIST!" Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie, absolutely. Repentance is not simply paying lip service. It is a WAY of living. It is CAUSED by the Holy Spirit, so that no man may boast.

"For it is GOD who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Without the gift of the Spirit we are sunk in that matter, because we cannot heal ourselves of the inner part of us, the carnal mind. We need the Spirit for that. And what I am attempting to understand from Tom is whether or not he believes that we do have the Spirit or not, but all I get are web links, so it doesn't even seem like I am having a conversation with somebody.

Quote"18 The parallel here is perfect. Adam's one offense is counteracted by Christ's one just award. The act of Adam actually affects all mankind. So Christ's work, eventually, must also actually justify all mankind. This cannot be during the eons, hence will not be fully accomplished until after the eons are past, when all are made alive in Christ (1 Cor.15:22). If Adam's offense only gave each one an opportunity to sin, so that some become sinners and others not, then we might say that Christ's work brings justification to all subject to their acceptance. But we must acknowledge that man has no choice in becoming a sinner, thus also will it be through the work of Christ. Both are actual and universal.

Exactly. FOR IT IS GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU, BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life BY one, Jesus Christ.)

Jesus says "I AM the resurrection and the life."

How shall we reign in Life by Grace? For sin shall not be your master because you are not under Law but under Grace. What does Grace do? It chastens us to abandon ungodliness in this present age.

:dsunny:

 
  Oh my Lord Jesus ! ,
  Seth I loved the original post  on Hebrews  6 !
   and understand    a bit about how your explaining it 
By  the grace you are saved , so the grace to me is the ability to not FOCUS  on sin and all that
elemental teachings that so many still  fuss  over how its done  , as its been explained already in the WORD OF GOD ! IF  we are to go on into ''perfection '' complete   salvation , body soul and Spirit  preserved  , we are to be  in the repentance''  a change of tranforming our minds to the MIND OF CHRIST ''!  LORD OF ALL , Yet serving all  , Jesus Christ 
  You can call me a Jesus freak , and count it as JOY !!    Dont get bitter over it a bit  , you could say I am clinging to Jesus for all its worth  to the end !!
Foe me there is only ONE LIVING BODY SOUL AND SPIRIT Alive to God right now  , and its Jesus Christ   ,  having the  POWER in the  earth , heavens and even below !   , being in  HIS BODY , IS THE TRUE CHURCH   , OF HIS flesh and bones and  made of Him 

we are Like Paul said , not to abuse this grace , but USE this grace to    bring others to the same place   in Jesus Body , soul and Spirit of ONENESS     that  brings true salvation to all
   the testimony or witness of Jesus Christ   in our mouths    , same message in Revelation !

I wanted to share more , but   , run out of time .
  God bless   all for their efforts in forwarding  the good news of the gospel of Jesus Cjhrist  and be true in their calling and purpose in Gods will .

Quote from: rosered on November 10, 2013, 05:30:39 PM

  Oh my Lord Jesus ! ,
  Seth I loved the original post  on Hebrews  6 !
   and understand    a bit about how your explaining it 
By  the grace you are saved , so the grace to me is the ability to not FOCUS  on sin and all that
elemental teachings that so many still  fuss  over how its done  , as its been explained already in the WORD OF GOD ! IF  we are to go on into "perfection " complete   salvation , body soul and Spirit  preserved  , we are to be  in the repentance"  a change of tranforming our minds to the MIND OF CHRIST "!  LORD OF ALL , Yet serving all  , Jesus Christ 
  You can call me a Jesus freak , and count it as JOY !!    Dont get bitter over it a bit  , you could say I am clinging to Jesus for all its worth  to the end !!
Foe me there is only ONE LIVING BODY SOUL AND SPIRIT Alive to God right now  , and its Jesus Christ   ,  having the  POWER in the  earth , heavens and even below !   , being in  HIS BODY , IS THE TRUE CHURCH   , OF HIS flesh and bones and  made of Him 

we are Like Paul said , not to abuse this grace , but USE this grace to    bring others to the same place   in Jesus Body , soul and Spirit of ONENESS     that  brings true salvation to all
   the testimony or witness of Jesus Christ   in our mouths    , same message in Revelation !

I wanted to share more , but   , run out of time .
  God bless   all for their efforts in forwarding  the good news of the gospel of Jesus Cjhrist  and be true in their calling and purpose in Gods will .

Yes, Rosered, Grace is not a passive thing. It is manifested in God doing a work within us. It's ALL his work and has nothing to do with the the Law of Moses. It's all about being FORMED....like clay....in the hand of the potter to become the image of his own Son. This is what God's plan of salvation is: Let us make man in our own image.

That's what God is doing with Grace, forming us into the image of his Son. The Gospel is not simply "salvation from death" but salvation from SIN.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 05:18:22 PM

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 02:46:06 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 08:47:44 AM

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 04:09:36 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about, bro. If you're saying that believing some of the spiritual endowments of the Pentecostal era are no longer operating is "ungodliness," I disagree. Part of my search for the truth, after I left the Catholic Church and investigated psychedelics then Zen and Taoist philosophies, was to spend some time with some Charismatic folks. Because I didn't know better, I thought their worship was the real deal for awhile, but I've since changed my mind. If anything is an example of what you call "ungodliness," it's the deceptive spirit in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/SpiritualEndowments/index.html

Whoa, there is a serious misunderstanding, and if that is on my part then I apologize. In no way to I believe that a belief in cessation amounts to ungodliness.

Here was your quote in response to my OP

QuoteIn place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last."

All the scriptures I have posted until now have shown that Grace is for keeping us in a state of continual repentance from sin. Grace does not replace "repentance and pardon" it is a continual causation of repentance in the believer. The Holy Spirit FEEDS our roots so that we continue in a state of repentance from sin by teaching us to abandon ungodliness and live holy in this present world.

That has nothing to do with the 1 Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit. Cessation is a hot topic issue, but I think, not the point of what I am saying. HAVING the Holy Spirit is the point, whether or not it manifests in those ways. And if we have the Spirit, everything Paul taught about Grace, again is in accordance to a maintaining of repentance, not to be replaced by some other form of Grace for this present time.

What this shows is that in no way was Hebrews 6 written as an admonition limited to 1st Century Christians but continues in application to modern day Christians.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html

Honestly Tom, it is really difficult to have a conversation with web links. Are you avoiding me? Can you just answer my simple question?

Do you believe that believers in Christ receive his Spirit in this day?

I'm not avoiding you, brother. I'm busy taking care of my totally handicapped sister and my 89 year old dad who has Alzheimer's. Why do you doubt I believe we have the spirit? If you read the information provided by the web links instead of complaining about them, you probably wouldn't be asking me. I think it's wacko that you asked, but just to spell it out for you, "YES!" OK?

"the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the holy spirit which is being given to us" (Romans 5:5)

"9 But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend -- whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him.
10 Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God.
11 For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God.
12 Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God,
13 which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words.
14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.
15 Now he who is spiritual is, indeed, examining all, yet he is being examined by no one.
16 For who knew the mind of the Lord? Who will be deducing from Him? Yet we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:9-16)

"Are you not aware that you are a temple of God and the spirit of God is making its home in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)

"no one is able to say "Lord is Jesus" except by holy spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3)

"For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and all are made to imbibe one spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

"22 Now the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 meekness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22,23)

"you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13)

"11 Put on the panoply of God, to enable you to stand up to the stratagems of the Adversary,
12 for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials.
13 Therefore take up the panoply of God that you may be enabled to withstand in the wicked day, and having effected all, to stand.
14 Stand, then, girded about your loins with truth, with the cuirass of righteousness put on,
15 and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel of peace;
16 with all taking up the large shield of faith, by which you will be able to extinguish all the fiery arrows of the wicked one.
17 And receive the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is a declaration of God." (Ephesians 6:11-17)

"THE JOINT ALLOTMENT IN
THE CELESTIAL SPHERE
WARFARE

10 Israel's warfare is with flesh and blood on the earth. Ours is with wicked spirits in the celestial realms. We should always remember that those who oppose us are merely the intermediaries used by the spiritual forces and treat them accordingly. It is not our place to wrestle with blood and flesh but to look beyond the human instrument to the real adversary in the spirit world. Material weapons are worse than useless. Our attitude toward men should be one of purest conciliation, not strife (6:15).

The Joint Allotment in Heaven

14 The spiritual armor here given covers the whole body and is for defense only. Truth will give us strength to withstand the attacks of error. Righteousness will preserve us from the wounds of wickedness. The evangel of peace, wherewith we go, will conciliate the human weapons used by the spirit powers which are directing human affairs.

16 An ancient mode of warfare was to fasten fire to arrows which would not only wound but burn. It was especially used against elephants to cause them to stampede. When the adversary sends some burning dart in the direction of the believer it is his privilege to shield himself by means of the faith which this epistle affords. This will effectually stop the arrows and quench their fire.

17 When all this has been done then we receive (not take) the helmet of salvation. And then we are entrusted with the sword of the spirit—a divine declaration. We have no offensive power at all except an explicit statement of God. The Scriptures contain many statements of men, such as the assertions of Job's friends, which are false. Hence only the declarations which proceed out of the mouth of God constitute the spirit's sword." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 294)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CheckYourPanoply/Panoply016.html

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 07:32:25 PM

I'm not avoiding you, brother. I'm busy taking care of my totally handicapped sister and my 89 year old dad who has Alzheimer's. Why do you doubt I believe we have the spirit? If you read the information provided by the web links instead of complaining about them, you probably wouldn't be asking me. I think it's wacko that you asked, but just to spell it out for you, "YES!" OK?

It's not wacko to ask because every time you respond to me, you do it by way of posting an entire article that I have to wade through to get to your answer, and then I am not sure if it's really the answer. That is frankly a bizarre way of communicating with people. It would be a lot easier to understand what you are trying to say, by simply taking a few moments and telling me. I have no problem reading articles which flesh out your point, but to simply post a link as a response makes it very difficult to understand your point.

I am also dealing with a Grandmother who has Alzheimers so I know what you are going through.

The reason I had to ask is because you original response appeared to say that we no longer have or need the Holy Spirit because of cessation. That is the confusion you caused by not simply talking to me and posting articles instead.

If we have the Holy Spirit, that is because the Spirit is given to keep us in repentance so that we can WALK by the Spirit. I still fail to see how your original response to me shows that Hebrews 6 is only for 1st Century Christians.

If you have important things to do, no rush! But I would appreciate a few moments of your time to explain your point in your original response.

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 07:55:02 PM

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 07:32:25 PM

I'm not avoiding you, brother. I'm busy taking care of my totally handicapped sister and my 89 year old dad who has Alzheimer's. Why do you doubt I believe we have the spirit? If you read the information provided by the web links instead of complaining about them, you probably wouldn't be asking me. I think it's wacko that you asked, but just to spell it out for you, "YES!" OK?

It's not wacko to ask because every time you respond to me, you do it by way of posting an entire article that I have to wade through to get to your answer, and then I am not sure if it's really the answer. That is frankly a bizarre way of communicating with people. It would be a lot easier to understand what you are trying to say, by simply taking a few moments and telling me. I have no problem reading articles which flesh out your point, but to simply post a link as a response makes it very difficult to understand your point.

I am also dealing with a Grandmother who has Alzheimers so I know what you are going through.

The reason I had to ask is because you original response appeared to say that we no longer have or need the Holy Spirit because of cessation. That is the confusion you caused by not simply talking to me and posting articles instead.

If we have the Holy Spirit, that is because the Spirit is given to keep us in repentance so that we can WALK by the Spirit. I still fail to see how your original response to me shows that Hebrews 6 is only for 1st Century Christians.

If you have important things to do, no rush! But I would appreciate a few moments of your time to explain your point in your original response.

I've taken time to respond to you, brother, despite the fact that you say I've caused you confusion by not doing so. I think you're making a false assumption that we don't have the spirit because some spiritual endowments are no longer being manifested. I think the scripture, commentary, and links provide an adequate explanation. Here's a little more context to hopefully provide clarification.

"12 For when also, because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need again of one to teach you what are the rudimentary elements of the oracles of God, and you have come to have need of milk, and not of solid nourishment.
13 For everyone who is partaking of milk is untried in the word of righteousness, for he is a minor.
14 Now solid nourishment is for the mature, who, because of habit, have faculties exercised for discriminating between the ideal and the evil.

Chapter 6
1 Wherefore, leaving the word dealing with the rudiments of Christ, we should be brought on to maturity, (not again disrupting the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith on God,
2 of the teaching of baptizings, besides the imposition of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of judgment eonian).
3 And this will we be doing, that is, if God may be permitting.
4 For it is impossible for those once enlightened, besides tasting the celestial gratuity and becoming partakers of holy spirit,
5 and tasting the ideal declaration of God, besides the powerful deeds of the impending eon,
6 and falling aside, to be renewing them again to repentance while crucifying for themselves the Son of God again and holding Him up to infamy." (Hebrews 5:12-6:6)

"11 The Jews were blind to the failures and disabilities connected with the Aaronic priesthood, hence could not appreciate the necessity of a new order for the Messiah. This made the whole subject a difficult one to unfold to them. The principal lessons are drawn from the inspired omissions in the record, which require a measure of spiritual apprehension which they did not possess.

1 The six rudiments which form the foundation which the Hebrews are exhorted to leave for more mature teaching are closely connected with the proclamation of the kingdom, and are not the substructure of present truth. Repentance and baptism are the keys to the kingdom, and are not for the body of Christ. Peter, at Pentecost, proclaims repentance and baptism to the Jews—perhaps to some who later received this epistle. Faith is the basis on which the present administration of grace is built. The Jews were zealous religionists. Their ritual was the dead works of which they repented when they turned to Messiah. "Faith on God" is probably the equivalent of our "belief in God", that is believing that He is, rather than what He has said. Believing God, as in Abraham's case, leads to justification, a grace entirely absent from this list.

2 Paul did not put baptism in the foundation of his evangel. He insisted that Christ had not sent him to baptize, but to evangelize (1 Co.1:17). Now there is only one baptism—that in spirit, which unites us into one body (Eph.4:5). In the kingdom proclamation, however, baptism in water was essential.
     The imposition of hands for the conveyance of spiritual benefits especially through the apostles is also a characteristic of the kingdom economy.
     There seems to be no reference here to the "resurrection from among the dead", but rather to resurrection in general, apart from which the kingdom cannot be set up. At that time will the saints in Israel awake and possess the kingdom promised to them in the prophets.
     Eonian judgment characterizes the inception and progress of Messiah's reign. It begins with the severest judgments this earth has known.
     These are the six foundation stones cast down by those who fell away among the Hebrews. They should have left them for maturity. Instead, they forsake them for apostasy. Instead of going back to Judaism, they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.

4 This description applies only to those who participated in the Pentecostal blessings. They were enlightened, they' tasted the celestial gratuity, they became partakers of holy spirit, and God's declaration, and they only experienced the powers of the kingdom eon, and many of them fell aside. These blessings were based on their repentance, or change of mind, which was induced largely by the miracles which they saw. When the kingdom failed to appear, and its powers vanished, their repentance went also. Hence the impossibility of renewing it, for the means which produced it were no longer in evidence. Such a course is not possible in a day of grace, such as we live in. In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 340,341)

PS: I think some of your confusion will be avoided if you consider to whom the epistle is addressed.

"HEBREWS

THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews resumes the subject of the book of Acts. Paul's epistles are a parenthesis in God's administrations. In Acts the kingdom is proclaimed, and rejected by the nation of Israel as a whole. Yet there was a remnant who believed. Of these the Hellenists followed the revelations given to Paul and found a new and a celestial destiny. But the Hebrews, associated with the twelve apostles and James, whose destiny is the kingdom as promised by the prophets, are left in a distressing situation due to the national defection of Israel. What is to become of them during the time that the nation stumbles? The kingdom cannot come until after the fullness of the nations has come in. That could hardly be during their lifetime. The book of Hebrews deals with the problem of these Pentecostal believers and takes them back to the same position as was occupied by the patriarchs and prophets of old, as explained in the eleventh chapter. They died in faith, not having received the promises.
     An important distinction between Hebrews and Hellenists will help in understanding this epistle. Both were Jews, of the stock of Israel as to the flesh. Both are brought before us in the sixth of Acts, where the widows of the Hellenists were distinguished from the widows of the Hebrews. Both spoke Greek. But the culture and training of the Hebrews was essentially Eastern and according to the traditions of their ancestors. The Hellenists, who were composed mostly of those who had lived in foreign lands, were Greek in culture and customs. So distinct were they that they had special synagogues in Jerusalem. The Hebrews were strong for ritual and the religion of their fathers. They are the special subject of this epistle, as is manifest from the opening strain.
     As the faith of the Pentecostal believers rested on signs and wonders and miracles in anticipation of the powers of the kingdom, some fell away when these manifestations ceased and the promised kingdom failed to appear. Their apostasy is dealt with in the sixth and tenth chapters-passages which can have no application in the present administration of grace, but which have hung as a cloud over the heads of those who imagine themselves in a similar position. Saints in Israel were conditionally pardoned. Its continuance depended upon their extension of this pardon to the other nations, as in the parable of the ten thousand talent debtor. The pardon could be and was withdrawn. It is not in force now. We have the infinitely higher favor of justification.
     Hebrews is the antitype of the wilderness journey of Israel from Egypt to the promised land. It brings Christ before us as the true Mediator, greater than Moses, the true Saviour, greater than Joshua, the true Chief Priest, greater than Aaron. It holds forth better promises concerning the land and the kingdom. Its type is the tabernacle and its ministry, before Israel entered the land." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 336)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 09:28:17 PM
I've taken time to respond to you, brother, despite the fact that you say I've caused you confusion by not doing so. I think you're making a false assumption that we don't have the spirit because some spiritual endowments are no longer being manifested. I think the scripture, commentary, and links provide an adequate explanation. Here's a little more context to hopefully provide clarification.

I don't assume we don't have the Spirit. I have spend many posts saying that WE DO. You have not taken the time to respond to me. I have been having a conversation with AE Knoch, not Tom. An what if I disagree with him? You going to post more papers? It makes no sense.

If you and I were in a room together discussing this issue, would you do nothing but speak in quotes and web links? If not, then why do it here?

Quote"11 The Jews were blind to the failures and disabilities connected with the Aaronic priesthood, hence could not appreciate the necessity of a new order for the Messiah. This made the whole subject a difficult one to unfold to them. The principal lessons are drawn from the inspired omissions in the record, which require a measure of spiritual apprehension which they did not possess.

The Hebrews 6 verse is not applicable to Jews according to the flesh. It is speaking about CHRISTIANS, Jews according to the Spirit. Christians are the ones who have the Spirit. And once they DO have the Spirit, there is no longer a difference between Jew and Genile. THE WALL OF PARTITION between them is TORN DOWN.

They may have ONCE been Jews according to the flesh. But you are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit if it so be that the Spirit of God lives in you.

Quote1 The six rudiments which form the foundation which the Hebrews are exhorted to leave for more mature teaching are closely connected with the proclamation of the kingdom, and are not the substructure of present truth. Repentance and baptism are the keys to the kingdom, and are not for the body of  Peter, at Pentecost, proclaims repentance and baptism to the Jews—perhaps to some who later received this epistle. Faith is the basis on which the present administration of grace is built.

As I have shown you AE Knoch is preaching from a misunderstanding of Grace.

The present administration of Grace is KEEPING CHRISTIANS IN A STATE OF CONTINUAL REPENTANCE by the Power and Working of the Holy Spirit, as I have shown you from Apostle Paul's writing. So there is no disagreement between what Paul wrote and what Peter wrote about Grace.

Quote2 Paul did not put baptism in the foundation of his evangel. He insisted that Christ had not sent him to baptize, but to evangelize (1 Co.1:17). Now there is only one baptism—that in spirit, which unites us into one body (Eph.4:5). In the kingdom proclamation, however, baptism in water was essential.

Which baptism? John's baptism by water, or Christ's baptism by SPIRIT. Paul certainly laid on hands to baptize in the Holy Ghost.


   

Quote4 This description applies only to those who participated in the Pentecostal blessings. They were enlightened, they' tasted the celestial gratuity, they became partakers of holy spirit, and God's declaration, and they only experienced the powers of the kingdom eon, and many of them fell aside. These blessings were based on their repentance, or change of mind, which was induced largely by the miracles which they saw. When the kingdom failed to appear, and its powers vanished, their repentance went also. Hence the impossibility of renewing it, for the means which produced it were no longer in evidence. Such a course is not possible in a day of grace, such as we live in. In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 340,341)

And I have shown you countless times, which you will not address, that GRACE is what teaches people to live in a state of repentance from sin. You will simply not address it.

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 09:41:06 PM
PS: I think some of your confusion will be avoided if you consider to whom the epistle is addressed.

"HEBREWS

THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews resumes the subject of the book of Acts. Paul's epistles are a parenthesis in God's administrations. In Acts the kingdom is proclaimed, and rejected by the nation of Israel as a whole. Yet there was a remnant who believed. Of these the Hellenists followed the revelations given to Paul and found a new and a celestial destiny. But the Hebrews, associated with the twelve apostles and James, whose destiny is the kingdom as promised by the prophets, are left in a distressing situation due to the national defection of Israel. What is to become of them during the time that the nation stumbles? The kingdom cannot come until after the fullness of the nations has come in. That could hardly be during their lifetime. The book of Hebrews deals with the problem of these Pentecostal believers and takes them back to the same position as was occupied by the patriarchs and prophets of old, as explained in the eleventh chapter. They died in faith, not having received the promises.
     An important distinction between Hebrews and Hellenists will help in understanding this epistle. Both were Jews, of the stock of Israel as to the flesh. Both are brought before us in the sixth of Acts, where the widows of the Hellenists were distinguished from the widows of the Hebrews. Both spoke Greek. But the culture and training of the Hebrews was essentially Eastern and according to the traditions of their ancestors. The Hellenists, who were composed mostly of those who had lived in foreign lands, were Greek in culture and customs. So distinct were they that they had special synagogues in Jerusalem. The Hebrews were strong for ritual and the religion of their fathers. They are the special subject of this epistle, as is manifest from the opening strain.
     As the faith of the Pentecostal believers rested on signs and wonders and miracles in anticipation of the powers of the kingdom, some fell away when these manifestations ceased and the promised kingdom failed to appear. Their apostasy is dealt with in the sixth and tenth chapters-passages which can have no application in the present administration of grace, but which have hung as a cloud over the heads of those who imagine themselves in a similar position. Saints in Israel were conditionally pardoned. Its continuance depended upon their extension of this pardon to the other nations, as in the parable of the ten thousand talent debtor. The pardon could be and was withdrawn. It is not in force now. We have the infinitely higher favor of justification.
     Hebrews is the antitype of the wilderness journey of Israel from Egypt to the promised land. It brings Christ before us as the true Mediator, greater than Moses, the true Saviour, greater than Joshua, the true Chief Priest, greater than Aaron. It holds forth better promises concerning the land and the kingdom. Its type is the tabernacle and its ministry, before Israel entered the land." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 336)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

What you or AE Knoch don't seem to understand is that once we have the Holy Spirit, we are ONE in Christ, no Jew or Greek, but ONE MAN: Jesus Christ.

Hebrews is addressed to Christians, not Jews according to the flesh. It is addressed to those who were at ONE TIME Jews, but now, are ONE in Christ Jesus with Gentiles so that there is no longer a division between them. When ANYONE has the Holy Spirit they become one with eachother. Why preach a division when it's gone?

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 09:44:19 PM

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 09:28:17 PM
I've taken time to respond to you, brother, despite the fact that you say I've caused you confusion by not doing so. I think you're making a false assumption that we don't have the spirit because some spiritual endowments are no longer being manifested. I think the scripture, commentary, and links provide an adequate explanation. Here's a little more context to hopefully provide clarification.

I don't assume we don't have the Spirit. I have spend many posts saying that WE DO. You have not taken the time to respond to me. I have been having a conversation with AE Knoch, not Tom. An what if I disagree with him? You going to post more papers? It makes no sense.

If you and I were in a room together discussing this issue, would you do nothing but speak in quotes and web links? If not, then why do it here?

Quote"11 The Jews were blind to the failures and disabilities connected with the Aaronic priesthood, hence could not appreciate the necessity of a new order for the Messiah. This made the whole subject a difficult one to unfold to them. The principal lessons are drawn from the inspired omissions in the record, which require a measure of spiritual apprehension which they did not possess.

The Hebrews 6 verse is not applicable to Jews according to the flesh. It is speaking about CHRISTIANS, Jews according to the Spirit. Christians are the ones who have the Spirit. And once they DO have the Spirit, there is no longer a difference between Jew and Genile. THE WALL OF PARTITION between them is TORN DOWN.

They may have ONCE been Jews according to the flesh. But you are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit if it so be that the Spirit of God lives in you.

Quote1 The six rudiments which form the foundation which the Hebrews are exhorted to leave for more mature teaching are closely connected with the proclamation of the kingdom, and are not the substructure of present truth. Repentance and baptism are the keys to the kingdom, and are not for the body of  Peter, at Pentecost, proclaims repentance and baptism to the Jews—perhaps to some who later received this epistle. Faith is the basis on which the present administration of grace is built.

As I have shown you AE Knoch is preaching from a misunderstanding of Grace.

The present administration of Grace is KEEPING CHRISTIANS IN A STATE OF CONTINUAL REPENTANCE by the Power and Working of the Holy Spirit, as I have shown you from Apostle Paul's writing. So there is no disagreement between what Paul wrote and what Peter wrote about Grace.

Quote2 Paul did not put baptism in the foundation of his evangel. He insisted that Christ had not sent him to baptize, but to evangelize (1 Co.1:17). Now there is only one baptism—that in spirit, which unites us into one body (Eph.4:5). In the kingdom proclamation, however, baptism in water was essential.

Which baptism? John's baptism by water, or Christ's baptism by SPIRIT. Paul certainly laid on hands to baptize in the Holy Ghost.


   

Quote4 This description applies only to those who participated in the Pentecostal blessings. They were enlightened, they' tasted the celestial gratuity, they became partakers of holy spirit, and God's declaration, and they only experienced the powers of the kingdom eon, and many of them fell aside. These blessings were based on their repentance, or change of mind, which was induced largely by the miracles which they saw. When the kingdom failed to appear, and its powers vanished, their repentance went also. Hence the impossibility of renewing it, for the means which produced it were no longer in evidence. Such a course is not possible in a day of grace, such as we live in. In place of repentance and pardon, we have faith and justification, which know no falling away, being entirely of grace, from first to last." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament pages 340,341)

And I have shown you countless times, which you will not address, that GRACE is what teaches people to live in a state of repentance from sin. You will simply not address it.

Well, obviously we disagree about this just as we do about Gehenna.

Yes, obviously. I maintain that there is NO division between Jew or Gentile in the Spirit, which shows that ALL the epistles are edifying ONE BODY: Jesus Christ.

Every Jew who has been given the Holy Spirit by faith in the SON CEASES to be a Jew and becomes a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 09:45:36 PM

Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2013, 09:41:06 PM
PS: I think some of your confusion will be avoided if you consider to whom the epistle is addressed.

"HEBREWS

THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS

Hebrews resumes the subject of the book of Acts. Paul's epistles are a parenthesis in God's administrations. In Acts the kingdom is proclaimed, and rejected by the nation of Israel as a whole. Yet there was a remnant who believed. Of these the Hellenists followed the revelations given to Paul and found a new and a celestial destiny. But the Hebrews, associated with the twelve apostles and James, whose destiny is the kingdom as promised by the prophets, are left in a distressing situation due to the national defection of Israel. What is to become of them during the time that the nation stumbles? The kingdom cannot come until after the fullness of the nations has come in. That could hardly be during their lifetime. The book of Hebrews deals with the problem of these Pentecostal believers and takes them back to the same position as was occupied by the patriarchs and prophets of old, as explained in the eleventh chapter. They died in faith, not having received the promises.
     An important distinction between Hebrews and Hellenists will help in understanding this epistle. Both were Jews, of the stock of Israel as to the flesh. Both are brought before us in the sixth of Acts, where the widows of the Hellenists were distinguished from the widows of the Hebrews. Both spoke Greek. But the culture and training of the Hebrews was essentially Eastern and according to the traditions of their ancestors. The Hellenists, who were composed mostly of those who had lived in foreign lands, were Greek in culture and customs. So distinct were they that they had special synagogues in Jerusalem. The Hebrews were strong for ritual and the religion of their fathers. They are the special subject of this epistle, as is manifest from the opening strain.
     As the faith of the Pentecostal believers rested on signs and wonders and miracles in anticipation of the powers of the kingdom, some fell away when these manifestations ceased and the promised kingdom failed to appear. Their apostasy is dealt with in the sixth and tenth chapters-passages which can have no application in the present administration of grace, but which have hung as a cloud over the heads of those who imagine themselves in a similar position. Saints in Israel were conditionally pardoned. Its continuance depended upon their extension of this pardon to the other nations, as in the parable of the ten thousand talent debtor. The pardon could be and was withdrawn. It is not in force now. We have the infinitely higher favor of justification.
     Hebrews is the antitype of the wilderness journey of Israel from Egypt to the promised land. It brings Christ before us as the true Mediator, greater than Moses, the true Saviour, greater than Joshua, the true Chief Priest, greater than Aaron. It holds forth better promises concerning the land and the kingdom. Its type is the tabernacle and its ministry, before Israel entered the land." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 336)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html

What you or AE Knoch don't seem to understand is that once we have the Holy Spirit, we are ONE in Christ, no Jew or Greek, but ONE MAN: Jesus Christ.

Hebrews is addressed to Christians, not Jews according to the flesh. It is addressed to those who were at ONE TIME Jews, but now, are ONE in Christ Jesus with Gentiles so that there is no longer a division between them. When ANYONE has the Holy Spirit they become one with eachother. Why preach a division when it's gone?

"27 For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,
28 in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)

Which is what makes Hebrews 6 an admonition to Christians who are all one in Christ partaking the same Spirit

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 09:53:30 PM
Yes, obviously. I maintain that there is NO division between Jew or Gentile in the Spirit, which shows that ALL the epistles are edifying ONE BODY: Jesus Christ.

Every Jew who has been given the Holy Spirit by faith in the SON CEASES to be a Jew and becomes a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

Tom, I love you brother but Seth is speaking according to Scripture on this. Christ came to make a NEW HUMANITY.  :HeartThrob:

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Eph 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 09:53:30 PM
Yes, obviously. I maintain that there is NO division between Jew or Gentile in the Spirit, which shows that ALL the epistles are edifying ONE BODY: Jesus Christ.

Every Jew who has been given the Holy Spirit by faith in the SON CEASES to be a Jew and becomes a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

But there is a difference in being a body-Christian and a bride-Christian.
And that difference determines (the level of) HS activity.
:2c:

"1 On this behalf I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you, the nations --
2 since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you,
3 for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief,
4 by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ,
5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit
6 the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel
7 of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation.
8 To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,
9 and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all,
10 that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God,
11 in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord;
12 in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith." (Ephesians 3:1-12)

If we are all one man in Christ Jesus, are we not a hebrew or Jew because Christ was from the tribe of Judah in the flesh?  :Chinscratch:

BTW, "Jew" usually refers to one from the tribe of Judah. Hebrew to the others. At one time, Hebrews were fighting the Jews

Quote from: JulieTang84 on November 11, 2013, 05:42:55 AM

Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2013, 09:53:30 PM
Yes, obviously. I maintain that there is NO division between Jew or Gentile in the Spirit, which shows that ALL the epistles are edifying ONE BODY: Jesus Christ.

Every Jew who has been given the Holy Spirit by faith in the SON CEASES to be a Jew and becomes a NEW CREATION IN CHRIST.

Tom, I love you brother but Seth is speaking according to Scripture on this. Christ came to make a NEW HUMANITY.  :HeartThrob:

Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Eph 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Amen Julie. The idea that there is a separate way for Jews from Gentiles is an invention of AE Knoch to explain what he assumed were differences in the apostles letters. There is no difference in what they wrote the all harmonize

2 Peter 3
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever.

In my opinion the bride and the body are one and the same. The members all have one Head,(eph 1) and they are "the fulness of him who fills all in all". Two become one flesh and Paul uses the metaphor of marriage, "no man hates his own flesh(body)". Betrothed to Christ, in Ephesians Paul speaks of the body and bride simultaneously, as he does throughout his wrtings "I hav betrothed you to one Lord".

Bridegroom/Virgins/Bride
Head/Members/Body
Chief cornerstone/Living Stones/ Tabernacle

A careful study involving a cross section on all these reveal they are all alike metaphors for the same relationship viewed in different aspects.

In Romans  we see the olive tree in which the branches that were cut off were replaced with branches grafted in from a "wild olive tree" and those who are grafted in are likewise suited for "pruning" if they become self-righteous or unbelieving or exalt themselves over the former branches. All one tree.

One new man. One head. One vine.

Eventually the whole world will be grafted into it :o)

I agree eaglesway

The flesh profits nothing. Gospel of Christ: FLESH

There are no separate messages, requirements and allocations to anyone based on their qualities of the flesh whether Jew or Gentile. It profits nothing. We are ALL ONE MAN: the body of Jesus Christ.

Phil 3
2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of ALL things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Paul is talking about the righteousness that comes by faith, as Peter put it, "growing in Grace."

Gentiles should have NO confidence in their flesh as Gentiles. And Jews should have NO confidence in the flesh as Jews. We should count it all a pile of poop like Paul did. Gentiles have no different admonitions, instructions, administrations than Jews. There is no more "US" and "THEM." That's all done with, replaced with Christ and him crucified.

Quote from: Seth on November 11, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
I agree eaglesway

The flesh profits nothing. Gospel of Christ: FLESH

There are no separate messages, requirements and allocations to anyone based on their qualities of the flesh whether Jew or Gentile. It profits nothing. We are ALL ONE MAN: the body of Jesus Christ.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: rosered on November 11, 2013, 11:10:07 PM

Quote from: Seth on November 11, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
I agree eaglesway

The flesh profits nothing. Gospel of Christ: FLESH

There are no separate messages, requirements and allocations to anyone based on their qualities of the flesh whether Jew or Gentile. It profits nothing. We are ALL ONE MAN: the body of Jesus Christ.

:thumbsup:

  I  found this amazing  Bro Seth        that Jesus is our rest and its rest in HOPE    and in Love and the increase of God

When in the Body of Christ showing us the   ONENESS    and gathering into Him    any thing outside of the HOLY CITY /BODY OF CHRIST      is still outside the gates     and have not entered   yet .

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world."
John 16:33


But the  baptism  by the water of John the  Baptist    Jesus was  going to cause Division            for me its the old covenant  and the new covenant  division
  those under law  / Moses  in whom they trust    verse those under grace   /Christ in whom we place our trust     

he who is not with me is against me, and he who is not gathering with me doth scatter.



Luke 12 ;49] 49"I have come to set fire to the earth, and I only wish it were already burning."



50"I have a baptism with which to be baptized, and I am much afflicted until it is fulfilled."


51"Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? I say to you, no, but division."[    the division of gathering in Christ by grace or the  scattering  against Christ Body   



52"From now on there shall be five in one house who are divided, three against two and two against three."

53"For a father will be divided against his son and son against his father, mother against her daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

  no divisions in Christ Many Members, One Body
12For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body,


being many, are one body, so also [is] the Christ,

13for also in one Spirit we all to one body were baptized, whether Jews or Greeks, whether servants or freemen, and all into one Spirit were made to drink,

14for also the body is not one member, but many;

15if the foot may say, 'Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body;' it is not, because of this, not of the body;

16and if the ear may say, 'Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body;' it is not, because of this, not of the body?

17If the whole body [were] an eye, where the hearing? if the whole hearing, where the smelling?

18and now, God did set the members each one of them in the body, according as He willed,

19and if all were one member, where the body? 20and now, indeed, [are] many members, and one body


; 21and an eye is not able to say to the hand, 'I have no need of thee;' nor again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.'

22But much more the members of the body which seem to be more infirm are necessary,

23and those that we think to be less honourable of the body, around these we put more abundant honour, and our unseemly things have seemliness more abundant,

24and our seemly things have no need; but God did temper the body together, to the lacking part having given more abundant honour,

25that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same anxiety for one another,


26and whether one member doth suffer, suffer with [it] do all the members, or one member is glorified, rejoice with [it] do all the members;

27and ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

For me and  my thoughts   this is the Holy City/ the Body of Christ       / called out from the world ones !

so simple is the for  Him or against Him      and the fire that   divides    in the earth         from dead works to Living works   Paul   in  this  testimony  /prophecy    witness      and our  works   tried by the fire    1 Cor  3

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,


13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward

  I know  for myself the judgment seat of Christ is now and is in effect       one  side or the other side
  in Christ or outside of Christ    division

God bless       this thread      has  helped in more ways than one
  and  the simplicity    in Christ is just amazing 

and every knee  will bow and tongue confess the Lord Jesus Christ one day !!!   !! :flowerred: