Just finished reading the online book:
So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore?
It's also available in printed form.
The book is written in a fictional and conversational style and it's a short, easy read. The authors promote being the church and their character, "John" says all the the same things that the Lord has shown my husband and I. So, if you've ever wondered just what Hopeful thinks about church and fellowship you can read this book and then you'll know. :Sparkletooth:
http://www.jakecolsen.com/contents.html
Thanks for posting this, Hopeful. I read much of this book online a few years ago and then couldn't find it. Now I can finish it. :happygrin:
A few years ago? Really? For some reason I was under the impression that it was new. Anyway, you're welcome! :icon_flower:
I think it was on a website called The Shovel. Every few weeks or month a new chapter of the book would be printed. I read every chapter, but lost track of it over time. I didn't know the book was available online....I'm enjoying it immensly.
Okay... I didn't read it until it was all finished but now I remember it was first available as installments. I especially enjoyed the last half of the book but I won't say anything until you're done. Maybe we can discuss it then if you'd like?
:bgdance:
I would love to discuss it with you, Hopeful. Is your real name Holly? I saw this spirit in the churches I used to attend....protect the institution at any price. People are expendable but the institution must go on. I'm half done with the book and it's great to know I can find the answer to the cliff hanger aspect of the book. :cloud9:
Yup! That's me- Holly. :icon_flower:
Some powerful quotes from the article:
There is nothing the Father desires for you more than that you fall squarely in the lap of his love and never move from that place for the rest of your life. God's plan from the days of creation to the day of the Second Coming was designed to bring people into the relationship of love that the Father, Son and Spirit have shared for eternity. He wants nothing less—and nothing else!
This is no distant God who sent his Son with a list of rules to follow or rituals to practice. His mission was to invite us into his love—into a relationship with his Father that he described as friendship. But what do we do? We are so quickly captured by a work-driven religious culture that thrives on guilt, conformity and manipulation that it devours the very love it seeks to sustain.
Won't it be a joy again to wake up confident about being loved by God every day, without having to earn it by any act of righteousness on your part? That is the secret to first love. Don't try to earn it. Know that you are accepted and loved, not for what you can do for God, or somehow hoping that you will be worthy of his acceptance, but because his greatest desire is to have you as one of his children. Jesus came to remove any obstacle that would prevent that from happening.
Don't you realize that the most powerful thing about the gospel is that it liberates us from the concept that God dwells in any building? For a people steeped in the rites of temple worship this was either great or terrible news. His followers thought it was great. No longer did they have to think of God as cloaked in the recesses of the temple, available only to special people at select times.
We're not changed by the promises we make to God, but by the promises he makes to us. When we make commitments that we can live up to only for a brief period, our guilt multiplies when we fail. Upset that God doesn't do more to help us, we usually end up medicating our guilt with something like drugs, alcohol, food, shopping or any thing else that dulls the pain or it creeps out of us through anger or lust.
If we do what he wants he will be good to us, and if we don't then bad things will happen in our lives. On its best day, this approach will allow us to be smugly self-righteous which is a trap all its own. On its worst days it will heap guilt upon us greater than we can bear. Your 'New Testament principles' are just another way of living to the law. You're still caught up in the process of trying to get God to reward you for doing good.
Walking toward him is walking away from sin. The better you know him the freer from it you will be. But you can't walk away from sin, Jake. Not in your own strength! Everything he wants to do in you will get done as you learn to live in his love. Every act of sin results from your mistrust of his love and intentions for you. We sin to fill up broken places, to try to fight for what we think is best for us, or by reacting to our guilt and shame. Once you discover how much he loves you, all that changes. As you grow in trusting him, you will find yourself increasingly free from sin.
The institution provides something more important than simply loving each other in the same way we've been loved. Once you build an institution together you have to protect it and its assets to be good stewards. It confuses everything. Even love gets redefined as that which protects the institution and unloving as that which does not. It will turn some of the nicest people in the world into raging maniacs and they never stop to think that all the name-calling and accusations are the opposite of love." Then as John reeled in the empty hook he held it up, "It's love with a hook. If you do what we want, we reward you. If not we punish you. It doesn't turn out to be about love at all. We give our affection only to those who serve our interests and withhold it from those who do not."
"What are you saying? I should just walk away? I can't imagine I'd survive without this church. It has been my home for so long and I'd die without it!"
"That's what they want you to think, but it isn't so. It also explains why everyone is fighting so viciously. They don't think they can give it up either, so they have to win. This trap has captured many a child of God. When we're so afraid we can't make it without the institution, then right and wrong go out the window. The only thing that concerns us is our own survival. That kind of reasoning has led to incredible pain over years of church history."
"For one, you think suffering is a sign of God's displeasure with you. Didn't Job make that mistake? Suffering often indicates that God is setting us free from something so that we can follow and embrace him more deeply. Walking in his life will always mean you are going against the grain. Don't expect your circumstances to conform easily to this journey. They will resist it at every turn. God wants to teach you how to walk with him through these things so that you can know a joy and peace that transcends circumstance."
Just remember he's not worried about tomorrow because he has already worked that out. He's inviting you to live with him in the joy of the moment, responding to what he puts right before you. The freedom to simply follow him that way will transform so many areas of your life. He loves you, and he wants you to live in the security of that, without having to figure everything out.
It's a lot easier for you to get out of the system than it is to get the system out
of you. You can play it from inside and out. The approval you felt then came from the same source as the shame you feel now. That's why it hurts so much when you hear the rumors or watch old friends turn away embarrassed. Truth be told, some of those people still really care about you. They just don't know how to show it now that you no longer play on their team. They're not bad people, just brothers and sisters lost in something that is not as godly as they think it is.
Learning to live by trusting Father is the most difficult part of this journey. So much of what we do is driven by our anxiety that God is not working on our behalf, that we have no idea of the actions that trust produces. Trusting doesn't make you a couch potato. As you follow him, you'll find yourself doing more than you've ever done, but it won't be the frantic activity of a desperate person, it will be the simple obedience of a loved child. That's all Father desires.
Certainly there are things that are right and things that are wrong. But we'll only truly know that in Jesus. Remember, he is the truth itself! You will never be able to follow his principles if you're not following him first.
Jesus didn't leave us with a system; he left us with his Spirit— a guide instead of a map. Principles alone will not satisfy your hunger. That's why systems always promise a future revival that never comes. They cannot produce community because they are designed to keep people apart.
We humans are notorious for taking something Scripture describes as a reality, giving a term to it and thinking we've replicated the reality because we use the term. Paul talked about the church that gathered in various homes, but he never called it 'house church'. Houses were just where they ended up in their life together. Jesus was the focus, not the location. As I said, you can have all the right principles and still miss his glory in the body.
That's where religion has done the most damage. By making people dependent on its leaders, it has made God's people passive in their own spiritual growth. We wait for others to show us how, or even just follow them in hopes that they're getting it right. Jesus wants this relationship with you and he wants you to be an active part in that process.
It's valuable for the body of Christ to find each other and share his life together. Where people are doing that they don't need commitment. They'll bend over backwards to be with each other. Where they aren't doing that, it does little good just to be committed to a meeting. I'm convinced that most Christian meetings give people enough of God's things to inoculate them against the reality of his presence.
"I never realized how much of what I thought was minister was only manipulating people's shame—whether it was to make them feel guilty for falling short or to earn other people's approval."
"That's what religion is. It's a shame-management system, often with the best of intentions and always with the worst of results."
"But it did work, at least externally."
"Yes, but it only drove the bondage even deeper. In the end people are still addicted to shame and bounce between self-pity and self-glory, never finding freedom to simply live in him. It makes people think God wants a cause and effect relationship with them. If they'll be good, he'll be good to them.
Whatever he gives you to do next. Remember, equip people to live in him first; then you'll see how he brings his body together. Don't get me wrong. I love it when a group of Christians want to intentionally walk together as an expression of community—listening to God together, sharing their lives and resources, encouraging and caring for each other and doing whatever else God might ask them to do. But you can't organize that with people who aren't ready. Remember, discipleship always comes before community. When you learn to follow Jesus yourself and help others to do the same, you'll find body life springing up all around you.
One can hardly conceive of body life today without an organization and a leader shaping others with his vision. Some love to lead; others desperately want to be led. This system has made God's people so passive most can't even imagine living without a human leader to identify with. Then we wonder why our spirituality falls so painfully short. Read through the New Testament again and you'll find there is very little focus on anything like leader ship as we've come to think of it today.
That's one of the strangest things about Christianity locking itself into an institutional box. Who would choose to be raised in an orphanage? Our hearts hunger for family. That's where children learn who they are and how they fit into the world. This is like an orphanage revolving around the convenience of the whole. You survive best in it by following its rules, but that's not how Jesus connects you with his Father. For that you need a family and brothers and sisters who can respond to you in the moment, not wait for a meeting or to schedule a seminar.
Part of the journey involves doing what he makes clear to you. If you've submitted it to him, then let him sort it out. If he were asking you to leave today, I think you'd know that, even in the face of your fears. If he hasn't made it clear to you then wait. Just keep loving him and following him every day. I'm learning the joy of resting in him, doing what I know to do and not doing what I don't know to do. It's been one of the hardest lessons to learn, but also the most freeing.
Where Jesus is given first place, the church simply emerges in wonderful ways. He will place you in the body exactly as he desires. And as those relationships grow, you may find yourself surrounded by a group of people who want to walk in more intentional community together. That's an amazing thing when it happens, but still you have to keep your focus on him. Even groups that start out centered on him are easily and quickly tempted to organize themselves to death. When Jesus ceases to be the object of our pursuit, our touch with his body will fade into emptiness.
Thanks, SeekerSA! Did you finish it yet?
It took me about 3 hours to read.
The PDF version has a lot more extras that the online HTML versions has.
IMO although he does not purport UR, it sums up UR quite effectively. In fact it sums up the current move of God. If we teach this, hell goes out the window by itself w/o any help from us.
I have published these excerpts on my blog too. Hopefully that will get some eyes opened.
Living Christ is church.
BIC
"You really have no idea what Jesus was like, do you?"
The words slipped off the man's lips as gently as the breeze wafted through the trees overhead and were in
stark contrast to the heated argument that swirled around him. They were so softly spoken that I read them
on his lips more than heard them. But their impact was not lost on the crowd. The noisy clamor subsided
quickly as tension-filled faces gave way to puzzled expressions. "Who said that?" was the unspoken question
that filled the eyes of their surprised faces as they scanned the others around them.
I chuckled under my breath because no one was looking at the man who had just spoken. For one thing, he
was so short that it was easy to pass over him. But I had been watching him and the crowd for the last few
moments intrigued by his demeanor.
As people were glancing around he spoke again into the stunned silence. "Do you have any idea what he
was like?"This time all eyes turned downward toward the voice and were surprised to see the man who'd spoken.
"What do you know about it, old man?" One of them finally spoke up, his mockery dripping off of each
word until the disapproving gaze of the crowd silenced him. He laughed it off and looked away
embarrassed, grateful that their eyes had swung back to the stranger. But he was in no hurry to speak. The
resulting silence hung in the air, far beyond the point of awkwardness. A few nervous glances and shrugs
shot throughout the crowd, but no one spoke and no one left. During this time the man scanned the crowd
pausing to hold each person's gaze for a brief second. When he caught my eye, everything inside seemed to
melt. I looked away instantly. After a few moments I glanced back, hoping he was no longer looking in my
direction.
After what seemed an insufferably long time he spoke again. His first words were whispered directly at the
man who had threatened the others with hell. "You really have no idea what motivates you, do you?" His
tone was one of sorrow, and his words sounded like an invitation. There was not a trace of anger in it.
Embarrassed, the man threw his hands up and twisted his lips as if he didn't understand the question.
The stranger let him twist in the gaze of the crowd briefly, then looking around the circle he began to speak
again, his words flowing softly. "He was nothing special to look at. He could walk down this street today
and not one of you would even notice him. In fact he had the kind of face you would shy away from, certain
he wouldn't fit in with your crowd.
"But he was as gentle a man as one would ever know. He could silence detractors without ever raising his
voice. He never bullied his way; never drew attention to himself nor did he ever pretend to like what vexed
his soul. He was real, to the very core.
"And at the core of that being was love." The stranger paused and shook his head. "Wow! Did he love!" His
eyes looked far past the crowd now, seeming to peer across the depths of time and space. "We didn't even
know what love was, until we saw it in him. It was everyone, too, even those who hated him. He still cared
for them, hoping somehow they would find a way out of their self-inflicted souls to recognize who stood
among them.
"And with all that love, he was completely honest. Yet even when his actions or words exposed people's
darkest motives, they didn't feel shamed. They felt safe, really safe with him. His words conveyed not even a
hint of judgment, simply an entreaty to come to God. There was no one you would trust more quickly with
your deepest secrets. If someone were going to catch you at your worst moment you'd want it to be him.
"He wasted no time mocking others, nor their religious trappings." He glanced at those who had just done
so. "If he had something to say to them, he'd say it and move on and you would know you'd been loved
more than anyone had ever loved you before." Here the man stopped, his eyes closed and mouth clenched
as if choking back tears that would melt him in an instant if he gave in to them.
"I'm not talking about mamby-pamby sentimentalism either. He loved, really loved. It didn't matter if you
were Pharisee or prostitute, disciple or blind beggar, Jew, Samaritan or Gentile. His love held itself out for
any to embrace. Most did, too, when they saw him. Though so few ended up following him, for the few
moments his presence passed by them, they tasted a freshness and power they could never deny even years
later. Somehow he seemed to know everything about them, but loved them deeply all the same. "He paused and scanned the crowd. In the last couple of moments perhaps as many as 30 people had
stopped to listen, their gaze firmly on the man and their mouths agape in bewilderment. I can record his
words here, but am bereft of an adequate description of their impact. No one within earshot could deny
their power or their authenticity. They rang from the very depths of his soul.
"And when he hung there from that filthy cross," the man's eyes looked up into the trees that towered over
us, "that love still poured down--on mocker and disillusioned friend alike. As he approached the dark
chamber of death, wearied of the torture and feeling separated from his Father, he continued to drink from
the cup that would finally consume our self-will and shame. There was no finer moment in all of human
history. His anguish became the conduit for his life to be shared with us. This was no madman. This was
God's Son, poured out to the last breath, to open full and free access for you to his Father."As he spoke further, I was struck by the intimacy of his words. He talked like someone who had been with
him. In fact, I remember thinking, "This man is exactly how I would picture John the Disciple to be."
No sooner had the thought crossed my mind than he stopped in mid-sentence. Turning toward his right,
his eyes seemed to seek something in the crowd. Suddenly his eyes locked on mine. The hair on the back of
my neck stood at attention and my body quivered with a wave of chills. He held my gaze for a moment, then
a brief but certain smile spread over his lips as he winked and nodded at me.
At least that's the way I remember it now. I was shocked at the time. Was he acknowledging my thought?
That would be silly. Even if he were John, he wouldn't be a mind reader. What am I thinking? How could
he be a 2000-year-old disciple? It's just not possible.
As he turned away, I glanced behind me to see if anyone else could have been the target of his gaze. It didn't
look that way, and no one around me seemed to take notice of his wink and smile. I was stunned, like I'd
just been hit in the head with an errant football. Electricity raked over my body as questions raced through
my mind. I had to find out more about this stranger.
The crowd was swelling in size as more and more people poked their heads in trying to figure out what was
going on. Even the stranger seemed to grow increasingly uncomfortable with the spectacle the scene was
quickly becoming.
"If I were you," he said with a wink and a smile as his eyes swept over those who'd started the discussion, "I
would waste far less time ragging on religion and find out just how much Jesus wants to be your friend
without any strings attached. He will care for you and if given a chance will become more real to you than
your best friend and you will cherish him more than anything else you desire. He will give you a purpose and
a fullness of life that will carry you through every stress and pain and will change you from the inside to show
you what true freedom and joy really are."
:boogie:
Wow, what a Saviour. John surely knows God's grace and is so gentle and loving as he tries to get others to see that they have the wrong idea about who God really is.
If grace really means we don't do anything to deserve his love, then why are so many people trying to do something to deserve his love? Once I realized God loved me no matter what I did, I could rest in His overwhelming, unfathomable love and mercy. He loves all of us the same. Why wouldn't you want to serve this kind of saviour? :bigGrin:
Amen!
Actually, I NEVER wanted to go to church, but I was told I had to or else God would hate me (or so I was led to think anyway). I was more or less taught that because I existed at all that I owed God something. (Was I lied to when I was told life itself was a gift?)
Excellent post BTW, Bernie.
Chuck
Quote from: SeekerSA on December 24, 2007, 03:17:42 PM
It took me about 3 hours to read.
The PDF version has a lot more extras that the online HTML versions has.
IMO although he does not purport UR, it sums up UR quite effectively. In fact it sums up the current move of God. If we teach this, hell goes out the window by itself w/o any help from us.
I have published these excerpts on my blog too. Hopefully that will get some eyes opened.
Living Christ is church.
BIC
Bernie, I kept seeing you refer to this so I finally read it. Very good, recommended it already to my wife...she said "I don't want to stop going to church" :eyebrow:. A little at a time, in God's timing...He's working it out. Anyway, highly recommend this reading.
Quote from: shibboleth on December 23, 2007, 06:48:35 AM
I think it was on a website called The Shovel. Every few weeks or month a new chapter of the book would be printed. I read every chapter, but lost track of it over time. I didn't know the book was available online....I'm enjoying it immensly.
Oh, The Shovel! I forgot about that place....
I used to post on there.
Quote from: hopeful on November 28, 2007, 01:38:20 PM
Just finished reading the online book:
So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore?
It's also available in printed form.
The book is written in a fictional and conversational style and it's a short, easy read. The authors promote being the church and their character, "John" says all the the same things that the Lord has shown my husband and I. So, if you've ever wondered just what Hopeful thinks about church and fellowship you can read this book and then you'll know. :Sparkletooth:
http://www.jakecolsen.com/contents.html
This looks very interesting and you can read it for free online?
wow. that's refreshing. :icon_flower:
thanks for posting this!
Yup. You can read it for free! :icon_flower: Paper copies are available, too.
Thanks I think ill give it a read. =] I am aiming to learn more and reading the replys to this book I see that this would be an amazing help.
One of the authors of this book is Wayne Jacobsen. He's got a book called "He Loves Me" that my parents really enjoy, and we've had the pleasure of having him stay in our neighborhood before, as he travels around.
Here's his website: http://www.lifestream.org/index.php
Just brought book a month ago, only read a few pages and stopped, plan on picking it up again. I did hear it was a good read
Quote from: Tim B on July 30, 2009, 11:24:17 AM
One of the authors of this book is Wayne Jacobsen. He's got a book called "He Loves Me" that my parents really enjoy, and we've had the pleasure of having him stay in our neighborhood before, as he travels around.
Here's his website: http://www.lifestream.org/index.php
Thanks for the Link!
I visited an' fell in love with the wonderfully casual way he expresses things. Quite a remarkably quiet reassuring voice to hear amid all the turmoil an' noise.
The truth about God as told in this book has always been in my peripheral vision, I could almost see it properly. It really made me think about how the friendships I have with christians are so much more enriching spiritually than any sunday morning meeting I have ever been to. I have asked my husband to read it too as the decision of whether our family attends church anymore or not is his to make. In the mean time I want some of what John had!!! Imagine living that life, it makes me laugh and cry just thinking about it!! What a saviour!
:cloud9:
Nat
Quote from: Fang_Diachi on December 30, 2008, 11:45:23 PM
Thanks I think ill give it a read. =] I am aiming to learn more and reading the replys to this book I see that this would be an amazing help.
:cloud9: :hijacked: Glad you guys brought this thread back up.........Fang, if you ever get to read the board, just want to tell you I miss ya kid.........wish I could give you a big hug. :girlheart: Carry on y'all.........Card
Just curious, do any of you actually attend churches (congregations)?
I attend an evangelical church which has the doctrine of ET (eternal conscious punishment infact-yikes!! :sigh:) in their statement of faith. They know that I dont believe in hell and that I believe that all will be saved. They except me, my hubby and mother who all believe in UR and although they think I'm very wrong they havent made it a problem. The thing is I really love them and love spending time with them. I think the main reason they believe in ET is because thats what they were told when they were saved and they have never questioned it. Their favourite line is, "Jesus spoke about hell the most". I've told them about Gehenna being the local dump and all that but :BangHead: :sigh:.
Anywhooo, they want me to get more involved in church life and before I read SYDWTGTCA I would have been like yipee! but since reading it my pride and vanity has sort of poofed away (thank you Lord) and now its a bit awkward. Its really hard for me not to walk out when I hear them preach on hell, it feels like they are insulting my Lord, they are I guess. But I love them and they have good intentions and its a great chance for fellowship. My husband feels obligated to stay as he plays in the worship band and we were both baptised there. But we both have some major problems with the church and churches in general. The wasted money maintaining a building that is empty most of the time, the politics, the fact that almost everything about it is aimed at our comfort and entertainment and not Gods glory.
We're in a quandry and dont know what to do. I know that God has it all in hand but in the mean time I feel very conflicted.
Sorry this has been more of a rant than anything but its on my mind a lot! We are looking into emmigrating to New Zealand in the next couple of years and I must admit that one of the things I am most excited about would be tht I wouldnt feel obliged to attend a "church" I could just get on and be it!
Rant over.....for now :happygrin:
Nat
:cloud9: Do you think maybe your spirit is warring against your fleshly good intentions, maybe? Because usually when I feel conflicted it's because I'm not at peace with what it is I'm doing, and until I line up, it stays on me like a nagging thing. Once I make the decision, no more feeling conflicted. It's the see/saw of trying to weigh things that drives me crazy, LOL........Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 22, 2009, 02:27:28 AM
:cloud9: Do you think maybe your spirit is warring against your fleshly good intentions, maybe? Because usually when I feel conflicted it's because I'm not at peace with what it is I'm doing, and until I line up, it stays on me like a nagging thing. Once I make the decision, no more feeling conflicted. It's the see/saw of trying to weigh things that drives me crazy, LOL........Blessings.....
So true and sometimes you don't know which is your spirit and which is the fleshly good intention. :mshock:
At this point I'm dropping a little post on this thread to be sure to be notified as others post here. I'll try to be more relevant at a better time of day.
Thanks for the feed back guys. :bigGrin:
I think your right that the conflict is between the spirit and the carnal. After thinking about it more, I think that staying at church I could reach more people with the victorious gospel but again its hard to know if its the spirit or carnal. I've already been planting seeds and especially the younger members seem open to the possibility of UR.
I think maybe we will just have to wait and see what God is going to do. Hopefully he will take the decision out of my hands.
Nat
Pray nat, and place it in God's hands to show you and make it plain to you. Just ask Him to "like a shephard lead you". I still attend with my wife most Sunday AMs as a bit of a "keep the peace" compromise. But I felt God had me resign my official membership and stop any "official" denominationally-sanctioned activities (I was also in the praise band). I've been thinking - I probably could participate more in a non-denominational, more univeral restoration type congregation - more of a "loosely" structured body of believers not run by some institutional headquarters somewhere. But when you find one of those, let me know :bigGrin:.
:cloud9: I found over the years, that He makes you to BECOME what you need, LOL......BE that loosely structured group of believers out of your own home. My :2c: Blessings....
I put the two posts with excerpts from the book and sent them in an email to various people in my address book. I unintentionally sent it to someone to whom I would've otherwise not sent it. The swift response was: "nut job."
Card and reFORMer are blessed to me.
:cloud9: Well, then we're all nut jobs. I say, we wear it proudly, LOL :tease: :angel4:
I resemble that remark :banana: :banana:
Well, I think its ok NOT to join any "systems" any more...
However, what Jesus said about 2 or 3 gathered in His name (Matt. 18: 20 ) still applies... I think we should only do it in a conducive environment where we can share the love of Christ with one another, confess one another our sins and help build each other up..
It doesn't mean we shun other Christians, in fact the command is to love...
But yes, I agree that the "institutionalized" fundamentalism that has all these rules, endless Bible studies (while excluding Scriptures that teach the REAL gospel ;) ) don't help us grow... anything to make us grow in love, then that's where Jesus is.. :bigGrin:
Thanks for bringing that uo Paolo, it led me to read the book and boy was I blessed.
I understand why it's a sticky and it should be a must-read.
Incredible book!
Impacted me about as much as the shack.
A Christian friend accused me of not fellowshipping with them anymore...
The truth is I haven't been for years now because I sort of lost my zest for the faith because of the E.T. gospel...
but when I discovered U.R. my faith was restored in full. However I'm rather terrified that their church leader, the leader of my Christian friend thinks it is ESSENTIAL that I believe in eternal damnation again, otherwise I have welcomed a dangerous spirit...
Until the day I find personal contact with believers of the Victorious Gospel, its only Jesus for now that I am accountable to. And even when I do find those friends, it should always be Him at the center.
:thumbsup:
My own fellowship is with anyone who is a member of Christ.
A lot in church are not and a lot outside church are.
That's inspiring Quaesitor!!
True, some practioners of Churchianity might accuse us of breaking the laws of Christ by not attending a traditional fellowship...
But even Jesus broke the rules! As Carlton Pearson put it.... Let's just be sure we're breaking these rules in the name of love.
:bigGrin:
If people of the world persecute us because they don't want to repent, that's a given. But if "Christians" persecute us too?? Well, the more persecutors, the merry-er.. :grin:
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on November 24, 2010, 11:49:53 PM
That's inspiring Quaesitor!!
True, some practioners of Churchianity might accuse us of breaking the laws of Christ by not attending a traditional fellowship...
But even Jesus broke the rules! As Carlton Pearson put it.... Let's just be sure we're breaking these rules in the name of love.
:bigGrin:
If people of the world persecute us because they don't want to repent, that's a given. But if "Christians" persecute us too?? Well, the more persecutors, the merry-er.. :grin:
:nod:
My wife and I have been out of the IC for about 6 years now. We are part of a Home Church fellowship that meets in our home, we have about 10-12 folks that gather with us.
I read Wayne's book about 2 years ago, great book that pretty much reflects what our group is like. Minus the John character :grin: Just living loved and loving others whether they are followers of Jesus Christ or not.
I don't miss the politicing and the power playing that goes on in the IC.
Nothing like being a free ranging bird. :bgdance:
Has any of you read Frank Viola's "Finding Organic Church"? But Like being with the UR group.. it is sometimes lonely... Hard to find others of like mind in the same area.
If you are interested in chatting with other free ranging bird, you should look up the Gj forum at www.thegodjourney.com
Grace and peace
Robert
they leave the Devil's gospel out of it, and I'm not under pressure to conform, no problem :}
Read this book a year ago, and it was another step in freeing me in my walk with my Father. We are so conditioned in our society to be part of some organized group, maybe a throwback to tribal survival, don't know, but I just could not bring myself to attend any church. Too wounded still from things I've gone through, absolutely no trust whatsoever in churches, I've seen lives like mine destroyed by them.
For myself, if I am studying the scriptures, praying, considering, I'm in church wherever I am, for the Holy Spirit is with me, two or more gathered together, that's Holy Spirit and me, the math works. lol! I do enjoy the rare moments I get to discuss things with those of like mind, but I also tend to avoid getting into discussions with those who have no understanding of the vast depths of God's total reconciliation plan of love. The anger and sometimes actual hate they spew is incredible!
This is such a great book. Just finished it yesterday. The perspective from which John speaks, caught me off guard at first but it makes so much more sense when you think about the big picture.
I recently have been thinking about leaving my current church, but every time I decided to stay home I start to feel guilty. Have any of you experienced this and how did you deal with moving past the guilt?
Be blessed,
Leah
Elwin Roach has an article called..'forsake not the assembling of yourselves togather"
you might benefit from reading it...just google search it.
do you feel guilty due to feeling 'indebted' to them somehow?
....his article addresses....ye need know man to teach you,the holy spirit teaches you...
but also....He has placed prophets,apstle's teachers etc in the body to build it up.
if this article does not address your issues of guilt about not attending church,
perhaps you would like to express what it is that is at the 'root' of the guilt...some of
the brother's and sister's here,may very well be able to help you with it. :friendstu:
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2014, 06:45:08 PM
Elwin Roach has an article called..'forsake not the assembling of yourselves togather"
you might benefit from reading it...just google search it.
do you feel guilty due to feeling 'indebted' to them somehow?
....his article addresses....ye need know man to teach you,the holy spirit teaches you...
but also....He has placed prophets,apstle's teachers etc in the body to build it up.
if this article does not address your issues of guilt about not attending church,
perhaps you would like to express what it is that is at the 'root' of the guilt...some of
the brother's and sister's here,may very well be able to help you with it. :friendstu:
Thank you Sheila, I will definitely check out that article.
As far as the root of this guilt goes. I believe it stems from having been raised on going to church every weekend. Maybe it feels more like an obligation and if I don't go, then I might be missing out on what God has to teach me. Also, I have been pretty invested in the people at the church I go to now. I don't want to make the wrong choice and leave if that's not what God wants for me. I hope that makes sense?
Hi forgiven..5 years later, I still often wonder.
I truly believe and believed that God called me out of the denomination and its trappings. However, fellowship, family considerations, and truly finding out the nuances of His will as other matters. For instance, I personally believe if one feels led and/or the freedom to do so, and can with a loving spirit filter through what's presented "in church", then there may be some reasons to continue to attend - at least to some degree. Maybe not as regular as before, not under man-made obligation or expectation, and no longer tied into the denominational constrictions - but more as a matter of freedom, fellowship, and family peace. I no longer "attend", but I often wonder "where's my place" and "what about my family, how are they being fed"..
I look to the Lord often for direction, and right now I am where I am. Here, but otherwise, on the outside looking in, and trying to feed my family some spiritual food here and there with a scripture and a related thought. It's not easy or always comfortable though. :2c:
That's very understandable..forgiven. Some 'churches' or congregations [some methodists]
do not consider the salvation of all anathema. Wait on Him..learn and grow..if He wants
you moved..He will let you know.then you will have peace in knowing it was the right thing
and His will.
:girlheart:
That's very helpful, thank you both. I will keep praying and seeking God's will on the matter. Ultimately I believe he is calling me out of the church. I just need to take a step out in faith and trust him. :Peace2:
:cloud9: This is an old thread but felt to add to it. I was out of any organized attempt at religion by the Lord's hand for probably 20+ years by this time. I was never allowed by Him to go thru the formalities of joining and pledging allegiance to any sect or it's doctrines, but early in my walk I did attend primarily for corporate worship.
I didn't go to learn what they believed, I was busy spending hours in the Word myself a day, seeing what HE wanted me to believe. If they said something that lined up with what I was seeing, that was great, and when it didn't, I ignored it or put it on a shelf for later to dissect and discern if it was "digestable". Discerning of spirits is the mirror image of our sense of smell in the natural, and as in the natural it doesn't take long to figure out if something stinks and begins to breed worms, don't eat it!
He recently let me attend, sporadically, a Messianic Jewish church, no doubt in part, because they are the closest in form to what I have had formed IN ME. And it has blessed me. I won't however, ever be a member of any church, EXCEPT the church I was birthed into, the church of the firstborn, CHRIST.
IMO this is the ONLY CONGREGATION/BODY He is interested in forming, all of the others despite their best intentions, have built their own kingdoms and I refuse to belong to an external one, when He is busy building the internal one, and the ONLY ONE we are told to fellowship with as we see the time approaching. I fellowship with HIM, wherever I find Him. And He is sometimes found in the darnest places. :winkgrin: my :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on April 15, 2014, 06:52:31 PMI did attend primarily for corporate worship.
How can there be anything 'corporate' when there are a zillion things you disagree with?
:cloud9: Easy. Worship is also praise and prayer. I don't have to agree with a thing they say to worship God with them. I just don't listen to their fables. :banana:
As the subject of churches and worship has come up, it may or may not be of interest to some but I will write it anyway.
On Friday, after I have finished my shift at the hospital (collecting hospital refuse) in my church we are having a short and simple service although there will be but a handful of humans, as I have done for the last two decades or so.
Essentially, I will just read the sayings of the Cross and a pertinent paragraph or two about each from the Holy Book. It will go something like this...
MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?
FATHER, FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.
VERILY, I SAY UNTO THEE, TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.
FATHER, INTO THY HANDS I COMMEND MY SPIRIT.
WOMAN, BEHOLD THY SON, (then said He to the disciple) BEHOLD THY MOTHER.
I THIRST.
IT IS FINISHED!
These will be interspersed throughout the service but I will not trouble you with the text surrounding the sayings which you already know well.
A hymn may be sung here or maybe later.
Then I may read:
"How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation, that saith unto Zion: Thy God reigneth! Thy watchman shall lift up the voice; with the voice together they sing, for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion.
Who hath believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For He shall grow up before Him a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground. He hath no form nor comliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from Him."
Then we may say the Lord's Prayer and then I may pray:
O Tender Father, we thank Thee for the gift of Thy Son Jesus Christ, Who came to live on Earth as man, to be our example in loving obedience to Thy Will. In His great love He endured the agony of the Garden and the Cross that He might bring all men into fellowship with Thee. Grant us Thy Holy Spirit so that we may have grace to follow in His footsteps, and work with Him to establish Thy kingdom of peace on Earth, to the glory of Thy Name. Amen.
Then I may read:
"Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes, we are healed.
All we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned, everyone to his own way.
He was afflicted; yet he opened not His mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before the shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgement; and He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death, because He had done no violence; neither was any deceit in His mouth."
Then I may pray something like:
LORD Jesus, by Thy loneliness and suffering on the Cross, draw near unto all who are desolate and in pain or sorrow this day.
Heal the sick,
Comfort the bereaved,
Sustain the anxious.
Visit with Thy redeeming love all who are in trouble. May Thy Presence transform their loneliness into comfort, and their darkness into holy fellowship with Thee. Amen.
Then I may pray:
O Saviour Christ, Whose love is without measure, grant unto us a greater consciousness of our frailty and our weakness. May we ever remember Thy cry of loneliness on the Cross so that if we should ever be in seeming desolation this link with Thee might bring forth our courage, and raise our souls closer to God, our Father, even as Thou didst in Thine hour of agony. Amen.
Then I may say something like:
Let us remember the comforting and blessed words of the promise of our Lord:
"If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. Ye are My friends if ye do whatsoever I command you. These things I command you, that ye love one another."
Then I may read this poem:
"His are the thousand sparkling rills,
That from a thousand fountains burst,
And fill with music all the hills,
And yet, He saith, "I thirst."
All fiery pangs on battlefields,
On fever beds, where sick men toss,
Are in that human cry He yields,
To anguish on the Cross.
But more than pains that racked Him then
Was the deep longing, thirst Divine,
That thirsted for the souls of men.
Dear Lord, and one was mine!
O Love most patient, give me grace,
Make all my soul athirst for Thee,
That parched dry lip, that fading face,
That thirst - were all for me."
(Mrs. C. F. Alexander)
Then I may pray:
Almighty Father, we humbly beseech Thee mercifully to behold this, Thy family, for which our Lord Jesus Christ was willing to be betrayed and delivered into the hands of wicked men, and to suffer death upon the Cross.
Grant that we may so accept the gift of His sacrifice that we may glorify His Name by our living service to all, and in company with saints, martyrs, prophets and just men and women, be worthy to partake also of Thy blessing, through the love and power of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Then I may say something along these lines:
Dear Friends, in remembrance of our Saviour's love for all mankind, shown at Calvary, we have tried to follow Him in our hearts and minds along the road of His physical and spiritual agony to the Cross, and the surrendering of His earthly life for the help of mankind.
What is the lesson we learn from this? Is it not that in degree we shall likewise be willing to suffer for the sake of those we love? Also to ever remember that our duty to those who are near and dear to us is to try and influence them to face their troubles with calmness, and to hold fast to faith in spite of all that would assail.
As we go back over the past in the Sacred Record we read for our learning of the many noble souls who suffered in order to raise up humanity from the materialism and evil of the world in the Name of God Almighty. And because these souls lived and worked for God, we can draw inspiration from them in His Name, and in the hour of test and trial show something of endurance. In the degree that this is possible, so will be our joy in the Life to come, where service with perfect freedom shall be the portion of such.
May the strength be given so that our courage may never fail, and may the Holy Spirit guide us ever into the way of spiritual peace.
Now unto Him Who loved us and gave Himself for us, be praise and worship and glory, with the Father, for ever. Amen.
This may or may not be the format - it often changes on the day - the true offering to God comes from within and not without. However, in order for different people to come together in a quiet and peaceful manner which lays aside the material world and its thinking for a while, there must be some type of structure in place to hold a harmonious gathering.
Peace.
Things are happening!
Quote from: Cardinal on April 15, 2014, 08:33:31 PM
:cloud9: Easy. Worship is also praise and prayer. I don't have to agree with a thing they say to worship God with them. I just don't listen to their fables. :banana:
I get that but it takes out the corporate for me.
:cloud9: @ lastpost. Enjoyed your post, but regarding the structure needed, I do see what your saying, but if I could but add the rest of this as I see it.........IMO.........The LORD IS the structure, the LORD'S will as revealed by His Spirit in the assembly, even if it's two in a grocery store, IS His ORDER. WE are the temple of the living God, and wherever WE ARE, THERE IS THE BODY/ASSEMBLY.
Whenever two or more of you are gathered in My name/nature, there I AM in the midst of you. Where the Shepherd-King is, THERE SHOULD BE FEEDING AND PETITIONS BEING ANSWERED, going on from the Head. The sin of the Nicolaitans which He said He hates, was separating the clergy from the laity.
The reason He hates it, is because it's taught His sheep to be fed of men who stood up between Him and His bride, and there cannot be 2 men in the bed, and soon there won't be! PTL, one WILL be taken, but it's not the one they imagine to themselves! Those that have condemned homosexuals from the pulpit as the head, will find that their very sin is what made the body open to the homosexual spirit in the first place. The body can only do what it sees it's head do.
Seeing the true body enables Him to be free to go when and where HE chooses, IN US, to do His will, amongst the body, which is found EVERYWHERE. Blessings....
Dear Cardinal, it is nice to hear from you.
Certainly, we have no priests or laity (although someone has to service the building and that is myself). People come because they want to commune together in the Name of Jesus Christ in their way – others can do it in their own preferred way and they do.
As you say, where two or three are gathered together in His Name there He is amongst them – He is interested in the heart not the letter. Jesus is their right and the priests have turned the people away and denied them entrance to Him by their letter: "No, you do not worship God because the letter says...", "Christ does not feel your love because you do not believe what we say you must believe..."
It is time for ordinary people to know the Gift of Christ is free from all that, then they will see what a tangle others have got themselves in – it is between Him and them. It is that simple, as are all things of Christ.
In His Love and Peace.
I think the "gather together" scripture does not depend on physical proximity.
1 Corinthians 5
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
All the elect are gathered together in spirit whether or not they are scattered abroad, and Christ is among them.
Yes Seth, thank you, indeed. Well, I firmly believe that I have a spirit and know people who also have this belief, in fact they would say that they "know" that they have a spirit.
As for Christ's Spirit - I believe that He is with us all the time, and "special" Presence, as it were, is given when appropriate ("when two or three...").
In fact - and I do not want to make it sound trite - I could discuss Christ endlessly because He keeps "returning" and lifting me up, as it were.
RE; preists have turned the people away and denied entance into Him because of their letter. I hear that !
A man who is physically uncircumcised, but who fulfills the law, will judge you who are a lawbreaker in spite of having the letter of the law and circumcision.
On the contrary, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart—by the Spirit, not the letter. That man's praise is not from men but from God.
But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old letter of the law.
You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, recognized and read by everyone.
It is clear that you are Christ's letter, produced by us, not written with ink but with the Spirit of the living God—not on stone tablets but on tablets that are hearts of flesh.
He has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit produces life.
The festivals of Christendom...
I genuinely respect everybody's preferred method of gathering/spiritual ecclesia even if it is not mine. It is between them and God after all. Personally, I can worship with others in their own buildings but generally do not. I find Catholic services too dogmatic for me so I avoid them. Methodist type services are better, I generally feel out of place. Yesterday in the hospital chapel I sent my love to Christ with some hymn singing - that was very good - the hospital chaplains are of a generous nature.
My own understanding is that Christendom has been guided since the Master Jesus Christ, our Lord, lived on Earth in human form. This guidance has been by God, yes, and also by His angels filled with His Holy Spirit who attempt to influence man through his material outlook.
Certainly, the course taken by the "Church" has been hideous, especially during the Dark Ages when men preferred evil, but it would have been worse without the influence of the Holy Spirit. I believe that many of the celebrations of Christendom were prompted by the Divine Unseen.
I want to pass on, if I may, some thoughts that came my way, meaning I did not originate the underlying message.
The whole course of the life of Jesus Christ is as a Pattern and festivals appear appropriately. This Pattern signifies the progressive development of the life begun on Earth and completed in heaven (using the term as it is generally understood). The life is born of self-denial and culminates in spiritual ascension.
The Christ Life can be viewed as a narrative; humanity may read the story of the progress of His Spirit from His Incarnation as a human being (Spirit to stable) to the release of His Spirit (Resurrection, Pentecost, ascension). Thirty years and more of disciplined preparation readied the Christ for His Mission. Three years and more in all were needed to deliver as much of His Mission as man could bear.
According to my understanding, the development of a human is to progress through the way marked by the festivals of the Christendom, from being born as a human being of flesh which constitutes a festival of self-denial, to the festival of the completed life.
The man is born into self-denial; he progresses through self-sacrifice; he develops through recurring struggles with enemies found in the round of daily life, enemies found in himself, and external enemies - which must be conquered.
After this course the external dies, and the inner man, the spirit, rises from its sepulchre of stone on its Easter Morning. From here it is baptised by the outpouring of Spirit, even as of Pentecost; then the spirit ascends to the place Christ has prepared for it.
I believe that this is the progress of the spirit - it has been regenerated, as it were, after its own crucifixion and resurrection. The new man has risen from his grave because the old man has died. The old man along with his lustful nature is crucified while the new man arises to partake in a spiritual and holy life.
The spirit is born again, regenerated - and that is the crowning moment of bodily life for those who have followed the Master Christ -it is the operation of the crucifixion of self, a daily death indeed.
There can be neither stagnation nor staleness because this is the life of spiritual development based upon the Christ Pattern. The disciple is called out by the Master: a stemming of the sensual and base desires so that there is place for the spiritual and Divine, and a daily absorption of knowledge. It is a life of spiritual progress.
I understand that grace and knowledge are gifts from God yet coupled to this fact is that Christ presented to humanity the purest type of life for its imitation, and the Christ Pattern engenders the growth in knowledge and indeed growth in the grace of the Christ.
The material is brushed aside so that the spiritual can be developed; it is a purging as by fire and the fire is of a consuming endeavour and enthusiastic diligence; it is the enduring of the grappling with the lesser self and all that the lesser self includes; and the signposts along the way are of a perpetually increasing embrace of the Truth which is Divine. I am led to believe that those who can welcome fiery trials in His Name are infinitely blessed.
This is a condensed version of the spiritual overlay of festivals based around the Christ birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension. This could be presented in a much more detailed manner as far as festivals of Christendom is concerned but this is simply to make an offering to ponder if desired, which I believe is more than significant.
In His Love and Peace.
I think the fact that we are assembling on Tentmaker is proof that physical proximity does not limit "assembling." I think it's necessary for believers to assemble, physically close, if possible. But, I don't believe that if someone is alone, means that Christ is not present within them. I think Matt 18:20 is speaking to the collective nature of his Body, to people who had never heard of the "body of Christ" yet. I don't take that scripture as to mean that not being part of a local church means that you are cut off from Christ (as I am sure we agree). After all, the Bible also says:
2 Cor 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
What happens when all you have around you are unbelievers? What happened before the Internet. I think this is a situation like eating meat sacrificed to idols. Each person must decide for themselves what it means to be assembled and what it also means to "be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers."
Anna, I think the two or three has to do with 'every matter established at the mouth of two or three wittnesses.... :HeartThrob:.."
Defining who and what is a believer is kinda critical to this discussion in my opinion. Were the Pharisees believers? The Levites? Jesus defined the Samaritan as a believer and the Pharisee and the Levite as not "acceptable". The acceptable sacrifice is the HEART OF CHRIST, not just the confession of Christ. Many confess Christ. Does Jesus define them as believers? Perhaps not- "Depart from you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels, I never knew you, for I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was hungry and you gave me no food I was naked and you did not clothe me."
Jesus said, "They will persecute you and cast you from their synagogues and say all manner of evil concernng you."
Was He really just talking about Jewish synagogues?
I don't think so. If you proclaim the true gospel pf Jesus Christ you will rarely have opportunity to gather with more than two or three "believers". You will be cast out of the gatherings of the contemporary Pharisees and Levites.
Our religious definitions of scriptural principles have often been induced by over a thousand years of orthodox indoctrination.
If I cannot speak the truth am I in the midst of "believers"? Religionists abound in the name of Jesus Christ and only God knows who among them are truly believers- not that speaking the truth necessarily makes one a "believer" either, because Paul says if I have all knowledge so as to understand every mystery and have not love I am nothing.
I believe we are assembling, in a manner, on Tentmaker. The living water flows wherever it can find a channel through which to pass. My personal belief is that if we are so afraid to stir dissension that we cannot "speak the truth in love" about what we believe- WE are the ones being deceived.
Of course, All is led by the Spirit, each one in his/her particular situation and calling and purpose- short term or long term......but I loath religious definitions of spiritual realities because they become whips and cords to bind saints in a land "where no water is".
"Come out of her and be a clean and separate people".... "Let us suffer with Him outside the camp, sharing His reproach".....
These things can be complex, but when it comes to the true gospel of Jesus, when I am among the so-called or the called, I would rather err on the side of boldness, because WHAT DOES MY SILENCE ACCOMPLISH?
How shall they hear unless someone proclaim? And how shall they understand, unless clear notes are sounded upon the trumpet?
We are the gatherers, who carry about this precious treasure in earthen vessels, the Savior of All and His gospel of the kingdom of God. Peace.
:iagree: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: ForeverForgivin on January 05, 2014, 03:20:20 AM
That's very helpful, thank you both. I will keep praying and seeking God's will on the matter. Ultimately I believe he is calling me out of the church. I just need to take a step out in faith and trust him. :Peace2:
I am not saying that most of us don't already understand this but, imo, we cannot be called out of the church- it is His body, the ecclesia. We can be in man's imitation of the church and called to be there as salt and water, but "not one stone will be left standing upon another" of that edifice. We can be called outside the "camp"- which I consider to be the ground in between that which is living and moving forward and that which is dead or dying- as a witness that God is no longer dwelling in it in His glory, which is the presence of the Spirit working in love through the "living stones" of the habitation of God in the spirit", which is fitly joined together upon the chief cornerstone, Jesus, always standing tall in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, constructed through the generations of this age and the last- the New Jerusalem coming down(being revealed) out of the heavenlies clothed in white linen, the righteous acts of the saints(called out ones). The ecclesia of God, the gathered together called out ones is the real church, His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all- and He is its head(Eph 1) .
Discerning the difference between the living temple/body and the synagogues that have died(strengthen that which is living but is about to die....Rev) is something God is teaching in every generation, and that we will all see in the first resurrection(again, this is my opinion:o).
Quote from: eaglesway on April 17, 2014, 09:48:55 PM
Defining who and what is a believer is kinda critical to this discussion in my opinion. Were the Pharisees believers? The Levites? Jesus defined the Samaritan as a believer and the Pharisee and the Levite as not "acceptable". The acceptable sacrifice is the HEART OF CHRIST, not just the confession of Christ. Many confess Christ. Does Jesus define them as believers? Perhaps not- "Depart from you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels, I never knew you, for I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was hungry and you gave me no food I was naked and you did not clothe me."
Jesus said, "They will persecute you and cast you from their synagogues and say all manner of evil concernng you."
Was He really just talking about Jewish synagogues?
I don't think so. If you proclaim the true gospel pf Jesus Christ you will rarely have opportunity to gather with more than two or three "believers". You will be cast out of the gatherings of the contemporary Pharisees and Levites.
Our religious definitions of scriptural principles have often been induced by over a thousand years of orthodox indoctrination.
If I cannot speak the truth am I in the midst of "believers"? Religionists abound in the name of Jesus Christ and only God knows who among them are truly believers- not that speaking the truth necessarily makes one a "believer" either, because Paul says if I have all knowledge so as to understand every mystery and have not love I am nothing.
I believe we are assembling, in a manner, on Tentmaker. The living water flows wherever it can find a channel through which to pass. My personal belief is that if we are so afraid to stir dissension that we cannot "speak the truth in love" about what we believe- WE are the ones being deceived.
Of course, All is led by the Spirit, each one in his/her particular situation and calling and purpose- short term or long term......but I loath religious definitions of spiritual realities because they become whips and cords to bind saints in a land "where no water is".
"Come out of her and be a clean and separate people".... "Let us suffer with Him outside the camp, sharing His reproach".....
These things can be complex, but when it comes to the true gospel of Jesus, when I am among the so-called or the called, I would rather err on the side of boldness, because WHAT DOES MY SILENCE ACCOMPLISH?
How shall they hear unless someone proclaim? And how shall they understand, unless clear notes are sounded upon the trumpet?
We are the gatherers, who carry about this precious treasure in earthen vessels, the Savior of All and His gospel of the kingdom of God. Peace.
I hear you. I think this is a very individual thing, done in individual seasons. Personally, I speak to some and not others. I must ask myself continually why I want to talk to someone about my beliefs. I know many here are well past this kind of immaturity, but I have to fight my ego. I feel like I have been given something really special, and it's easy for it to go to my head. It's easy for me to get caught up in being right rather than loving another human being. In reality I am much more concerned with showing another human being understanding and kindness and in that I am sharing the true gospel of Christ. That is so much bigger than doctrine, ideas, studies, or insights I may have. Every time we love another human being we share the true gospel. Whether or not I share what I believe about hell, UR, or various other subjects is so secondary to that. There are some ready to hear...and to those I speak...those who are not...and to those I don't. I try to be sensitive to open doors.
In my own opinion, if simply treating people with kindness was the same as sharing the Gospel, I think about why Christ compares the Gospel to a sword which divides family member from family member, and does not bring peace. Are Bhuddists sharing the Gospel by being kind? I am not meaning to be divisive or argumentative, but I think the Bible says that doctrine cannot be separated from the Gospel.
Galatians 1
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Hey Seth :thumbsup:
Shawn, I agree with you, as far as being sensitive is concerned. Led by the Spirit. I do think we ought to be ready to give an answer for what we believe, not club everybody over the head by what we believe. I do think boldness is important tho, and if I am unsure, I want to trust God and go with it :o)
Sometimes actions speak louder than words, and Christ is seen more easily than He is heard, in many instances. As I said before, it is complex and highly individual, but I always encourage those who understand who Christ really is and what God is really doing to share, because people who reject our testimony will often begin seeing it in the scriptures at a later point because their consciousness has been opened to what the word says after hearing the trumpet- even when they first thought the trumpet was a deception. Then they will be much more likely to love those they formerly railed upon, at least, that is what the victorious gospel produced in me. :o)
IMO
Being kind and Loving without the message of the true Gospel.
Is an example of working for your God.
Being kind and Loving with the message of the true Gospel.
Is an example of resting in your God.
in relation to this topic..and eating meat offered to idols. You can tell an idol by this...it is the work of men's hands
to carry an idol. But the TRUE GOD CARRIES MEN.
....and so..if ye sit in conversation with these churches..ye may partake of the 'word of God' with them/scriptures
freely......but also this one thing is true...'ye have meat that they know not of"
:cloud9: No time to do anything but an AMEN........and you know who you are......... :laughing7: :winkgrin:
Dear Friends, how simple yet powerful is the message of what His Drops of Blood have done for the whole world in this short season.
Once again a reminder of the salvation of the world and a deeper grasp of sacrificial Love yet, the time is now - again.
Is it possible that one who has Christ burning in the inner being could not respond in kind to the sacrificial Divine Love which is renewed each and every year in this little world?
In comes the regeneration of dry bones, in comes the season of rebirth, in comes the Spring as the rays shine on the dark grave of wintered earth, while the hard cold stone of the tomb is rolled away and the resurrection of the year finds carpets of emerald appearing, almost imperceptibly and yet immediate, and the trees adopt their sheltering canopies so welcomed by the musical flyers that they may also partake in the restoration of life.
What has the Great Father given for all who have eyes to see and ears to hear, for those who have removed the letters which obscure their senses so that the Spirit may be heard.
The laws of Life carry on in spite of the evil which so subtly and constantly battles to win man's heart and mind to ruin.
The Lord of Life does not leave us ignorant but shows within His creation a reading of the Life of Christ. Christ's Life is there for man to study - and it would make him wise if he chose to study Him and Him alone, before an ideological concept handed down by men, chosen from the opinions of others, granted infallibility, and given the marvel of being from the very lips of the Almighty God, Creator of Life and galaxies.
God of our salvation, we need but turn and face Thee, and we see that Thou wilt never leave Thy children. You are here today as You were always in the past, now is the time. You regenerate your people once again.
Quote from: sheila on April 20, 2014, 04:20:03 PM
in relation to this topic..and eating meat offered to idols. You can tell an idol by this...it is the work of men's hands
to carry an idol. But the TRUE GOD CARRIES MEN.
....and so..if ye sit in conversation with these churches..ye may partake of the 'word of God' with them/scriptures
freely......but also this one thing is true...'ye have meat that they know not of"
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: lastpost on April 05, 2015, 10:33:36 PM
Dear Friends, how simple yet powerful is the message of what His Drops of Blood have done for the whole world...
Christ's Life is there for man to study - and it would make him wise if he chose to study Him and Him alone, before an ideological concept handed down by men, chosen from the opinions of others, granted infallibility, and given the marvel of being from the very lips of the Almighty God, Creator of Life and galaxies.
Amen! how wonderful.. and needed.. are the times of His refreshing.. His grace is new every morning! :dsunny:
And you're so right, the doctrines and ideas of men, even if thought and felt by (the) many to be infallible.. they do not gather for the Lord, and that which does not gather scatters...
..A little leaven (sometimes the leaven is untruth) leavens the whole lump... my sheep know my voice and will not listen to another.. mix lies with the truth and the whole thing will not ring true to the listener.. the one who is seeking..
It's a mystery to me how strong untruth is.. sometimes it has to do with and is a kind of peer pressure.. And then I heard the other day that the more outrageous a lie, the more tendency for it to be believed..? ..untruth encircles and hovers over the planet like a wet quilt. But the solemn truth is, untruth can only crash and burn.. It's all built on sand.. It cannot endure.. When things crash, more people then want a word of truth, and the closer to the truth that word is, the better it penetrates..?
Quote from: sheila on April 20, 2014, 04:20:03 PM
in relation to this topic..and eating meat offered to idols. You can tell an idol by this...it is the work of men's hands
to carry an idol. But the TRUE GOD CARRIES MEN.
....and so..if ye sit in conversation with these churches..ye may partake of the 'word of God' with them/scriptures
freely......but also this one thing is true...'ye have meat that they know not of"
:dsunny: AMEN!! all are dead in Adam whom represents the flesh and blood of all mankind , Jesus come down and was sent by the FATHER to shed his BLOOD /INNOCENT BLOOD to make the way , the CROSS IS THE POINT OF PIVOTAL turning the way to the Father by the SPIRIT AND LIFE
NO FLESH AND BLOOD INHERIT THE KINGDOM JESUS CHRIST BECOME THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING TO raise up in the SPIRIT THOSE WHOM BELONG TO HIM , making alive to GOD in the here and now both in the literal sense and spiritual sense of living to the FATHER
NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER except by Jesus Christ , being the love and mercy of God to all mankind
the flesh and blood of men is the temporal dwelling of all source of sin and its also the weakest entrance for satan to destroy the flesh , I really do believe that is why satan is last for the lake of fire after the false prophet and beast of Rev 20 because NO FLESH AND BLOOD WILL EVER GLORY WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD ....
men glorying in men is the sin of Babylon whom is the wrath of God complete in Her , the earthly kingdom of where all pride is done away in
REV 15 Seven Angels with Seven Plagues
1Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues,
which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. 2And I saw something like
a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God
:2c: