Can anyone build a case against it as i want to refute it.
The email was from wayofthemaster.com.
I received the email when i asked them why they still preach eternal hell.
Is Hell Eternal?
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/universalism/hell-eternal
The teaching that there is an eternal hell in which hordes of mankind will suffer eternal punishment can be a difficult doctrine to accept. We hear so much about God's infinite love and how He desires that all men be saved (1 Tim. 2:4). However, those who develop their theologies based upon the "gentle" side of God do so with an incomplete picture. Not only is God loving (1 John 4:8-10), gracious (Exo. 33:19; 1 Pet. 2:3), and merciful (Exodus 34:6; Psalm 67:1; James 5:11), but He is also holy (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8), just ( Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6), and hates sin (Psalm 5:5-6; Hab. 1:13). God punishes the sinner (Jer. 50:31; Ez. 44:12; Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Heb. 10:29).
The Bible teaches that there is a fiery hell, a place that Jesus warned people about.
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).1
Eternal fire is real. Jesus said it was. In fact, Jesus spoke a great deal about hell. It is what Jesus came here to save us from.
There will be a Day of Judgment when all people will face God. Those who are not covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross will be cast out into hell where they will undergo eternal punishment. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46). In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer. That is why the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) is so important, because it saves people from eternal damnation:
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life, (John 5:24).
Following are a few verses that show the eternality of the hell and punishment. God uses different phrases to describe the same thing.
* "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
* "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
* These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).
Is "forever and ever" without end?
The phrase "forever and ever" is used both of describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.
forever and ever
aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"
Eternal - without end Eternal Damnation
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen," (1 Tim. 1:17).
". . . To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever" (Rev. 5:13).
"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises up forever and ever" (Rev. 19:3).
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever," (Rev. 20:10).
The Greek phrase "aionas ton aionon," which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great whore of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.
Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, "aionas ton aionon," which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is "aionas aionon" which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.
Unquenchable Fire
Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)
Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire." The word "unquenchable" is "asbestos" in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."
The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is "asbestos" in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.
* "unquenchable, inextinguishable"2
* "not quenched"3
* "pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable."4
* "unquenched, unquenchable"5
* "that cannot be put out"6
* "inextinguishable"7
Is hell eternal? Yes it is. Are its fires without end? Yes they are. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really. But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).
1. 1. All scripture quotes are from the NASB.
2. 2. Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1992. Available Online: Logos Library System.
3. 3. Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell, 1981. Available: Logos Library System.
4. 4. Louw, J. P. and Eugene A. Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, New York: United Bible Societies, 1989.
5. 5. Enhanced Strong's Lexicon, Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, 1995. Available: Logos Library System.
6. 6. Wigram-Green, The New Englishman's Greek Concordance and Lexicon, Peabody MA: Hendrikson Publishers, 1982, p. 771.
7. 7. Arndt, W. A., F. Wilbur Gingrich, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 2nd ed., Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979, p. 114.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 06:20:28 PMCan anyone build a case against it?
Standard Matt Slick stuff....
Scott answered most of it.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2866.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2838.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?board=106.0
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 06:41:19 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 06:20:28 PMCan anyone build a case against it?
Standard Matt Slick stuff....
Scott answered most of it.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2866.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2838.0
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?board=106.0
Whitewings thank you.
The email was from wayofthemaster.com. Ill see if i can refute it using everyones help from here, thanks a lot.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 06:53:34 PM
Whitewings thank you.
The email was from wayofthemaster.com
But an article from carm. Carm is owned by mat slick
If you read Scotts thread you will see refuting Matt Slick stuff is useless.
Just look for the following pattern. Matt states something. Scott refutes it. After a long while Matt sorta admits it.
Then 5 verses later Matt just makes his original claim again
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 07:06:10 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 06:53:34 PM
Whitewings thank you.
The email was from wayofthemaster.com
But an article from carm. Carm is owned by mat slick
Ahhh! So way of the master posted a CARM article lol! Wow that really shows how pathetic they are doesnt it? It shows that way of the master hasnt even really thought about it but just accepted what carm had to say...dear o dear.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 07:10:10 PM
If you read Scotts thread you will see refuting Matt Slick stuff is useless.
Just look for the following pattern. Matt states something. Scott refutes it. After a long while Matt sorta admits it.
Then 5 verses later Matt just makes his original claim again
Yes i see your point...its like the creationism vs evolution arguments...they just go on and on...
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 07:10:10 PM
If you read Scotts thread you will see refuting Matt Slick stuff is useless.
Just look for the following pattern. Matt states something. Scott refutes it. After a long while Matt sorta admits it.
Then 5 verses later Matt just makes his original claim again
Yes i see your point...its like the creationism vs evolution arguments...they just go on and on...
I take middle ground: Evolution is created :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 07:23:28 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 07:10:10 PM
If you read Scotts thread you will see refuting Matt Slick stuff is useless.
Just look for the following pattern. Matt states something. Scott refutes it. After a long while Matt sorta admits it.
Then 5 verses later Matt just makes his original claim again
Yes i see your point...its like the creationism vs evolution arguments...they just go on and on...
I take middle ground: Evolution is created :winkgrin:
I dont have the faith to believe in evolution, but lets stop this now lol.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 07:12:16 PM
Ahhh! So way of the master posted a CARM article lol! Wow that really shows how pathetic they are doesnt it? It shows that way of the master hasnt even really thought about it but just accepted what carm had to say...dear o dear.
wayofthemaster is a BBQ site. The guy is not the master but Jesus. So luckily he doesn't call himself master.
Personally I see no harm in linking to articles of others. If I was allowed to post my own research only my post count would be 1. That includes my welcome message...
Bu handyman just visit the site. You will feel right at home when you see the Dawin fish :happygrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 07:28:50 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 07:12:16 PM
Ahhh! So way of the master posted a CARM article lol! Wow that really shows how pathetic they are doesnt it? It shows that way of the master hasnt even really thought about it but just accepted what carm had to say...dear o dear.
wayofthemaster is a BBQ site. The guy is not the master but Jesus. So luckily he doesn't call himself master.
Personally I see no harm in linking to articles of others. If I was allowed to post my own research only my post count would be 1. That includes my welcome message...
Bu handyman just visit the site. You will feel right at home when you see the Dawin fish :happygrin:
I just have to have a good 'grounding' for my faith so that i understand what i am believing in, otherwise i feel i would just be as well believing anything, so posting links to other sites when i dont understand what is being said is futile to me.
...
Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 08:14:31 PM
I know how that feels, just when you think UR can be true or even annihilation, something will crop up which will put doubts in my mind, like this post on another forum that The book of enoch should have been canonical and explains many things in the bible BTW, the BOE spells out ET in no uncertain terms :sigh:,
QuoteAll human beings who were ever to be born as the seed of Adam were written in the Book of Life, in heaven, before the foundation of the world.
That book is the design book of the Manufacturer, and in it all the members of the human being body, all the DNA information for each body, and all the days of the life of each soul who would come forth in Adam were written before the foundation of the world. Even the numbers of hairs [follicles] on your head are written in that book, said Jesus, and not one will be lost in the regeneration of His sons.
Every soul written in that book was ordained from the foundation of the world to be a son of God born in Adam, and to be the ransomed sons of God in the adoption into the New Man name.
Jesus Christ owns that Book, and each person in that book has been atoned for by His Ransom/Atonement, once, for all.
No one can be born in Adam if they are not written in that book.
One can only get one's name blotted out of that book, but no one can get their name written in that book.
The Book of Life is first mentioned by Enoch. Enoch is the foundational revelation for all biblical doctrines, and for that reason that Enoch revealed them already, the foundations are not relaid in the OT or NT. Having once revealed the foundations, there is no repeat.
1 Enoch was banned by Rome hundreds of years after the NT Church was founded, but not banned by Ethiopian NT believers, who have always kept it in their 'canon'. The early NT Church members accepted Enoch as Scripture, and called it such, just as the righteous Jews did, as Jesus and His apostles and womb brothers also did. There was no reason to rewrite the foundational doctrines which Enoch revealed as truth from God.
Moses referred to that Book of Life in Genesis:
Exd 32:32,33
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Judas got his name blotted out of that book of Life, as well as the Pharisees who had Jesus killed, knowing that He was the Messiah:
Psa 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; [and] let none dwell in their tents.Psa 69:26 For they persecute [him] whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.Psa 69:27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living/Book of Life, and not be written with the righteous.
Acts 1:15-And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry....
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Peter quotes from Psalm 69, applying it to Judas, who became a child of perdition/destruction when Satan entered him, and Peter quotes from Psalm 109, applying the same to Judas.
Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Before Judas became a child of satan, his name was written in the book of Life, in heaven.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Quote:
1 Enoch
[Chapter 104]
1 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great 2 One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, 3 ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the 4 rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you. Be hopeful, and cast not away your hopes for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do ? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal 6 judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world.
1 Enoch [Chapter 103]
1 Now, therefore, I swear to you, the righteous, by the glory of the Great and Honoured and 2 Mighty One in dominion, and by His greatness I swear to you.
I know a mystery
And have read the heavenly tablets,
And have seen the holy books,
And have found written therein and inscribed regarding them:
3 That all goodness and joy and glory are prepared for them,
And written down for the spirits of those who have died in righteousness,
...
[Chapter 108]
1 Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah and for those who will come after him, 2 and keep the law in the last days. Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil; and an end of the might of the transgressors. And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away, for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits[not the souls] shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there.
The sons of the Watchers [disembodied ,are the demons roaming earth till Jesus returns and has them gathered and thrown into the Lake of Fire] in their bodies got by fornication with daughters of Adam were never written in the book of Life and will never rise in their stolen Adam flesh bodies. They are the "rapha" of Scriptures, the dead who will never rise.
But all the sons of Adam will rise, either to the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of the second death [or else stand for judgment at His coming without ever dying in their bodies of flesh, but get cast whole in body and soul into the lake of Fire, as the goat Gentiles do, at His coming, and as those born in the Millennial reign who rebel against His authority do, at the end of the Millennium]] when they shall be cast into the lake of Fire, soul in body, minus the Adam spirit, where they will be the "never dying worms" who lose forever the opportunity to be made sons of God in the regeneration of the heavens and the earth, but are cast into the lake of Fire as rejected plants of earth, in their risen bodies; which bodies will never pass away, because Jesus died for all the seed of Adam, to atone for the first death, in Adam.
The problem is, we are all totally and solely at God's mercy, however if hell is eternal then all I can say is that this life is nothing more than a cruel farce and utter sham, and most of us have been set up as patsy's for a big fall, it means that God created multiple billions of people with the full foreknowledge most would end up in an eternal hell, and there is SFA we can do about it
There can only be 2 reasons
1) He wanted it to happen
2) He allowed it to happen
I'm inclined to go with the former being the main reason, with the second following as a logical conclusion
Well this is the problem. I thought i would find some truth here, but all thats happend is that its opened up yet more doors of doubt and contradiction. Im seriously thinking of turning away from all of it, im looking into the universal salvation thing right now, but if there are no clear answers im not going to be a hypocrite and go around spreading lies for the rest of my life, i seek truth.
:cloud9: He said His Spirit would lead us into all truth. I have not found one seeming contradiction in 23 years of searching for His truth thru Him, that was not eventually reconciled by the revelation of MORE TRUTH.
So I have faith that He will finish what He has begun in me, as He is the author and finisher of our faith, and our faith is to be in Him, because He IS the Spirit that leads us into all truth. It's as simple as that to me, and I don't allow myself to be moved by what any book says away from the truth I have already been given by the Spirit of Truth. He builds upon the foundation of that which has already been laid. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2009, 09:25:08 PM
:cloud9: He said His Spirit would lead us into all truth. I have not found one seeming contradiction in 23 years of searching for His truth thru Him, that was not eventually reconciled by the revelation of MORE TRUTH.
So I have faith that He will finish what He has begun in me, as He is the author and finisher of our faith, and our faith is to be in Him, because He IS the Spirit that leads us into all truth. It's as simple as that to me, and I don't allow myself to be moved by what any book says away from the truth I have already been given by the Spirit of Truth. He builds upon the foundation of that which has already been laid. Blessings....
Card I love you, but faith in something isn't truth.
Millions of people practice all kinds of religions which their God 'guides them in' - and the funny thing is that although all these people claim to have the same spirit of truth, they all believe different things and very rarely agree!
I don't blame people for getting into a happy place in their minds and saying (as you put it), 'they will not be moved' from what anyone else says, because the truth is pretty miserable really let's face it.
I know many evangelists who preach hell who just 'will not be moved'...Am I too admire that? - Shall we not seek truth rather than just embrace the first happy thing that comes along?
The problem with truth is that its un-find-able. - The world is a a MASS of contradictions, contradictions in the bible, contradictions in all religions, even contradictions in nature!
Truth for me is simply 'love', it's the only thing worth living for, and the only thing that brings any meaning, and when someone truly loves all fear leaves. It's hard to attain, but not impossible, but the strange thing is that when you live in complete love, the thought of unfair or eternal torments just make no sense and even fear of being punished goes away.
Nothing can really hurt love because it just wants the best for everyone, so if God one day throws people who really love into eternal torment, God may not feel sorry for them, but they will feel sorry for God for being so callous.
What I'm saying is that love never fails, it's the only truth I've ever found and I didn't need religion to learn that.
:cloud9: I love you too, my new friend, but I think you missed my point, although I do see yours. :bigGrin:
My faith is in HIM, and He leads me into all Truth. There is NO truth apart from Him. And as you correctly observed, love is truth, because His Spirit is love. This is how we know if we go on to follow the Lord, because "you will know them by the love that they have for one another." If a "truth" doesn't increase love in you for God AND for your fellow man, it's not truth, because it didn't come from the Spirit that is both Truth and love. Blessings....
PS. I like your avatar........it reminds me of the "dot" post, LOL...... :thumbsup:
Book of Enoch correctly translated is 100% Universalist and Postmillenial, but it's not Scripture.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2009, 09:56:50 PM
:cloud9: I love you too, my new friend, but I think you missed my point, although I do see yours. :bigGrin:
My faith is in HIM, and He leads me into all Truth. There is NO truth apart from Him. And as you correctly observed, love is truth, because His Spirit is love. This is how we know if we go on to follow the Lord, because "you will know them by the love that they have for one another." If a "truth" doesn't increase love in you for God AND for your fellow man, it's not truth, because it didn't come from the Spirit that is both Truth and love. Blessings....
Well if your following after love i doubt you'll ever go far wrong.
Lol at the dot post!
I just have a hard time accepting a lot of what God does in the bible as being 'love', but that's another story.
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
Hmmmmm, Card...You see the dilemma?
:cloud9: yeah, that was so funny when I got done posting about seeing men's heads as "dots" on a map, and saw your new avatar right afterwards, and thought, "That was quick! There's a dot!" LOL
Anyway, yes I do, and I wish I had the all encompassing wisdom on that dilema because it's not the first time it's come up, and won't be the last. I don't know why I have never stumbled at that, personally.
He has so totally made Himself real to me that I totally trust Him and though I don't understand all that has been done, I have no doubt whatsoever that His reasons were perfect and seeing the end from the beginning, whereas we only perceive what is right in front of us in time, most of the time. My :2c: Blessings....
...
Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2009, 10:13:29 PM
:cloud9: yeah, that was so funny when I got done posting about seeing men's heads as "dots" on a map, and saw your new avatar right afterwards, and thought, "That was quick! There's a dot!" LOL
Anyway, yes I do, and I wish I had the all encompassing wisdom on that dilema because it's not the first time it's come up, and won't be the last. I don't know why I have never stumbled at that, personally.
He has so totally made Himself real to me that I totally trust Him and though I don't understand all that has been done, I have no doubt whatsoever that His reasons were perfect and seeing the end from the beginning, whereas we only perceive what is right in front of us in time, most of the time. My :2c: Blessings....
Lol, I love talking to you Card, your so easy going and don't take offence at my doubts and stuff, so all credit to you for that.
I just wish i had some more answers, wish God would just help me out a bit sometimes, just makes me feel like hes not interested, and makes me feel like "Hey i can end all this at any moment and just walk away from it all", but the UR makes sense to me, and also it was the revelation i received years ago (or rather i came to know a deep love where i inwardly 'knew' that God was working out his plans to do what was best for everybody....So on i go, forever reading lol.
Proverbs 3 (Young's Literal Translation)
1 My son! my law forget not, And my commands let thy heart keep,
2 For length of days and years, Life and peace they do add to thee.
3 Let not kindness and truth forsake thee, Bind them on thy neck, Write them on the tablet of thy heart,
4 And find grace and good understanding In the eyes of God and man.
5 Trust unto Jehovah with all thy heart, And unto thine own understanding lean not.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 10:18:32 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2009, 10:13:29 PM
:cloud9: yeah, that was so funny when I got done posting about seeing men's heads as "dots" on a map, and saw your new avatar right afterwards, and thought, "That was quick! There's a dot!" LOL
Anyway, yes I do, and I wish I had the all encompassing wisdom on that dilema because it's not the first time it's come up, and won't be the last. I don't know why I have never stumbled at that, personally.
He has so totally made Himself real to me that I totally trust Him and though I don't understand all that has been done, I have no doubt whatsoever that His reasons were perfect and seeing the end from the beginning, whereas we only perceive what is right in front of us in time, most of the time. My :2c: Blessings....
Lol, I love talking to you Card, your so easy going and don't take offence at my doubts and stuff, so all credit to you for that.
I just wish i had some more answers, wish God would just help me out a bit sometimes, just makes me feel like hes not interested, and makes me feel like "Hey i can end all this at any moment and just walk away from it all", but the UR makes sense to me, and also it was the revelation i received years ago (or rather i came to know a deep love where i inwardly 'knew' that God was working out his plans to do what was best for everybody....So on i go, forever reading lol.
:cloud9: Believe me, it's all the work of the Father in me.
You know, you talk about the revelation you had years ago; I don't think it's dawned on you yet that He has "come back" in this season of your life to water that "seed" that was planted. First the seed is planted, then it's bud, bloom, fruit. All stages, the timing of which is in His hands.
The "bad" things that you've walked thru in the meantime, have just been "manure" to fertilize the seed that was planted. Nothing will grow in sterile soil. So release yourself from the things that have tried to convince you, that you were part of the "manure" you were having to walk thru. You're not; you're one with the Seed and you're the son of a King.
Eph 5:14 - Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ (the Seed) shall give thee light.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2009, 10:39:34 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 01, 2009, 10:18:32 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2009, 10:13:29 PM
:cloud9: yeah, that was so funny when I got done posting about seeing men's heads as "dots" on a map, and saw your new avatar right afterwards, and thought, "That was quick! There's a dot!" LOL
Anyway, yes I do, and I wish I had the all encompassing wisdom on that dilema because it's not the first time it's come up, and won't be the last. I don't know why I have never stumbled at that, personally.
He has so totally made Himself real to me that I totally trust Him and though I don't understand all that has been done, I have no doubt whatsoever that His reasons were perfect and seeing the end from the beginning, whereas we only perceive what is right in front of us in time, most of the time. My :2c: Blessings....
Lol, I love talking to you Card, your so easy going and don't take offence at my doubts and stuff, so all credit to you for that.
I just wish i had some more answers, wish God would just help me out a bit sometimes, just makes me feel like hes not interested, and makes me feel like "Hey i can end all this at any moment and just walk away from it all", but the UR makes sense to me, and also it was the revelation i received years ago (or rather i came to know a deep love where i inwardly 'knew' that God was working out his plans to do what was best for everybody....So on i go, forever reading lol.
:cloud9: Believe me, it's all the work of the Father in me.
You know, you talk about the revelation you had years ago; I don't think it's dawned on you yet that He has "come back" in this season of your life to water that "seed" that was planted. First the seed is planted, then it's bud, bloom, fruit. All stages, the timing of which is in His hands.
The "bad" things that you've walked thru in the meantime, have just been "manure" to fertilize the seed that was planted. Nothing will grow in sterile soil. So release yourself from the things that have tried to convince you, that you were part of the "manure" you were having to walk thru. You're not; you're one with the Seed and you're the son of a King.
Eph 5:14 - Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ (the Seed) shall give thee light.
Thanks Card, that was really interesting. I know Jesus wouldn't want to hurt anyone...He even forgave his enemies as they were killing him and asked his father to forgive them too....Such was his love. I DONT believe that love will fail any human who seeks for it.
Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 08:14:31 PM
I know how that feels, just when you think UR can be true or even annihilation, something will crop up which will put doubts in my mind
Of course that isn't ideal.
But the importamt thing is that those sites get less and less impact on you.
There aren't an awful amount of verses that they use to slander Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
So when you seen 5-10 sites toughly refuted they are basicly all refuted.
The sites may use other wording and other torture pictures but the core (verses) are all the same.
So is the impact getting less? And/or the effect wears off quicker?
I hope to see at least one yes...
If anyone here has ever seen Karate Kid, how Mr. Miyagi taught Daniel reminds me so much of how God works in us. Most of the time we don't even realize that he is not ignoring us, but is working his will out in us the whole time.
Ron
:cloud9: A truer statement would be hard to find. :thumbsup: Blessings....
It'd take an awful long time to speak about the entire thing, but I would like to center in on one single claim, which is regurgitated ad nauseam seemingly without one single person ever looking it up:
Quote
Jesus spoke a great deal about hell.
Here's the facts (all numbers from the NIV, which Gary has picked on as even sneaking in an extra "hell" that most Bibles don't have):
- Jesus speaks of three different places all commonly translated to "hell" 12 times in total.
- Jesus speaks of the love we ought to hold 73 times.
- Jesus speaks of heaven 112 times.
The last two numbers may not be precisely accurate as I was just counting by hand, but they're probably accurate to plus or minus 2 times.
The bottom line is that we must ask this question: if Jesus is really warning people against eternal hellfire where they will burn forever if they screw up during their Earthly life, then why did waste so much time talking about love and heaven when the real pressing issue is that 90-95% of humanity will burn forever?
Those who quote you and endless deluge of Bible verses are playing the same part that the Pharisees played in the days of Jesus. Jesus didn't get into a verse-quoting battle with them for a simple reason: those are pointless and lower you down to their legalistic state of mind that keeps their heart hardened against love. If you receive an interpretation of the Bible that makes a voice in the back of your head scream "NO!", you should probably listen to it. If the news you receive is news that makes you afraid and which you could only receive grudgingly and disappointedly at best, then it is not the Good News.
As I said before, if you begin to worry about whether or not you're saved, then you've fallen into their trap, because then you begin to think as selfishly as they do. Do nothing for your own salvation; do everything for love and the glory of God.
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 02, 2009, 02:12:36 AM
If anyone here has ever seen Karate Kid, how Mr. Miyagi taught Daniel reminds me so much of how God works in us.
But still the
waxing gets boring :winkgrin:
Thanks everyone, very interesting posts.