judge nothing before its time

[marie glen]

Not as a good or a bad thing, but I have never been a church goer, for various reasons I simply cannot do it. I avoid that whole scene. All of it. But at the same time, i do watch some Christian programming, not 'religiously' :laughing7: as the saying goes, but good science programs of creationism vs non creationism - some reaLLy good things these days! And some prophecy programs once in  awhile, which usually end up driving me a little crazy in what I consider their inaccuracy or half tales, except lately there's actually been some new ideas coming forth!

But that's not what I wanted to post about. I sometimes will happen across some pretty good preaching or teaching.. down to earth powerful stuff. Though I have doctrinal differences with the organized church(es) some of them do quite a bit of good works in the world.. even dangerous works in lands, I myself would not like to go to.. I've been hearing quite a bit how many in the Middle East are coming to the Lord, even though their lives will be in grave danger, many of them, if they do.

And what that has made me think, is that believers who believe the hell doctrine - looking no further than the superficial words, not seeking the original languages or questioning it.. are able to still believe, and believe in the Goodness of God, because of their relationship with Him.

Whereas it seems baffling to me how a true lover of the Lord, and thus a lover of people, could swallow that particular cruel (preChristian) myth.. and also whereas I also believe some few folks sort of relish the idea of ET (superficially?) and not just against heinous criminals and despots! ..I'm thinking perhaps mostly, it's having a personal experience and relationship with Him, which overrides the ET part of the message. And thus many of them are able to function as 'good' Spirit filled Christians, loving their fellow person, some even to the point of risking life and limb, etc.

This helps me to avoid the whole us and them idea.. Tho I do still have a problem with those churches which are, or have, fallen away from the bible. Or at least the ones who do it because they think men's theories superior over God's account.. Others I think may be falling away from the bible because they think the hell doctrine originates there..

And I think many seekers may be in these grey areas. To me it's a miracle anyone comes to the  Lord what with the message that it's usually wrapped in! Wow. With such a teaching, ppl still come to the Lord in droves.. Imagine if the whole truth was preached and taught..  :Chinscratch: maybe it's a fruit God doesn't want to grow too fast..

..sorry to ramble on so.. :faint:

[sheila]

 same here,Marie...I see them as His little babes/children dashed against the wall..before they have a chance to grow up.

   Rev 14;13  Then I heard a voice that said 'WRITE:BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHO DIE IN THE LORD FROM NOW ON"

[Tom]

Don't worry about rambling, sis. That's what we all do here.

I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church. So I didn't have a choice about going to church until I got old enough to escape. After spending some years seeking the truth with various chemicals and philosophies of man, I checked out the Protestant Church for a little while. The last time was a long time ago in a Charismatic Church in the Northwest when I was into the King James Version because I didn't know any better.

I haven't turned on my TV since my handicapped sister died. She used to trip out on the cartoon channel. TV just bores me these days. I get all my information online on my laptop.

I don't think churches ever really were based on the bible. I think they all just use scripture as a reference to justify their doctrine which is actually based more on Roman political expedience, but they distort scripture so much through misinterpretation and flat out forgery in translation that it's not even recognizable.

I think folks who haven't heard about universal reconciliation believe orthodox theology because that's all they've ever known. I had questions about it all when I was young because some things just didn't make sense. That's why I left the church before I even knew about the truth of scripture. I just knew there was something wrong with what they were preaching.

I think it's good to have an understanding that the ecclesia, the body of Christ, is a spiritual body of believers that are unbound by space or time. So it's not really necessary to have to associate in the material world such as in a church. We can communicate virtually through the Web like we do here on the forum. It would be cool to hangout in the real world with a bunch of like minded folks who believe in universal reconciliation, but it seems like everybody has their own life going on in different places where they're kind of stuck dealing with their responsibilities. At least we have the expectation of seeing each other in the future when we're all snatched away to meet the Lord in the air.

It is sad that most folks believe a distorted evangel, but I think somebody can be a believer without fully understanding the evangel. It seems, even back in the day, there were competing versions of theology. Unfortunately Roman theology dominated due to its political power. That's what we're still dealing with today. I think all we can do is study the truth in scripture and share it as much as we can to try to reach as many folks as possible. We're persecuted for doing so, but that's to be expected. That's why they crucified Christ. 

[CHB]

The way I see it all is: We are all like School children. There are those who are in first grade, who have a little of the truth and it goes on up to graduation. Not everyone is given the whole truth. We can't look down on those who are in first grade because that is all they are given at this time. We, who believe in the salvation of all see ourselves as graduates but even we aren't given the full truth but we might know more than those who are in a grade lower than us. We can't expect a first grader to know what a twelveth grader knows. Nor can we expect any of the lower graders to know what a graduate knows.

I feel I am in the twelveth grade but I am still learning. I pray I never stop learning or growing in this life. Because I am in the twelveth grade does that make me smarter than the rest? Absolutely not!! It is not anything that I have done but it is all HIM.

CHB 

[rosered]

Hi Marie  and  Sheila  and Tom  , everyone  here ,

Well   I am in such a strange place   because of having  such a hard time speaking to   folks  in general

  I believe we are here so briefly and fleetingly in the days of our flesh    and God did this on purpose , those in the  old records lived   close to 1000  years in the flesh

and this world 

We have history records and the Word of God /Bible  and even its been   tampered with corruption by the many men of old    and many  innocent but  still in error   translators 

If we as a people believe in the SPIRIT OF LIFE   that some how breathes in these scriptures and quickens us we have  got something many have  never known  in their mortal existence           as the days of their flesh , but are some how now    ''spiritual creatures ''   by the work of the HOLY SPIRIT

  As some were even back than  being inspired to write and record it for us to this day and time     

For me there was always a simplicity in   this   that does not confound us     
  Here is one example     , that holds true to me    , because the Bible can be very confusing to any one     just reading it randomly   

We all know and believe that God has set this all up   from the beginning knowing what the fate of mankind is  , but mankind really does not know Gods   whole plan   from the beginning to end
 
But we have clues  , lots of them  and like a puzzle   that has   1000's of pieces     we try to make them all fit  , and they are forced at times where they do not fit at all , but still cannot   SEE THE WHOLE THING AS A DONE   ''WORK OF GOD ''  the whole picture

I have enjoyed the simple    2 sons  option   , God has two sons  ISRAEL  was His firstborn    EXODUS 4  22"Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23"So I said to you, 'Let My son go that he may serve Me'; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn."'"

And we know Jesus Christ is the  only  begotten SON OF GOD    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Being the only one of its kind conceived of HOLY SPIRIT  , Jesus come in the flesh  ,    but to me was the SON OF PROMISE , born of woman under the law   in the fulness of time     

Many of the old  heard of this going to happen , yet never understood it     and yet some did by the HOLY SPIRIT   showing them  and them writing it down  for the record     

GOD made  the law  of ten commandments  , the LAW is a standard      , of what is expected     of those   who  are His   and those whom  are lawless . causing the division     between the   types   
we know that the sin of Israel was idolatry   being        unfaithful and theLAW  or  standard     was  being  those whom represent God       

JESUS NOW REPRESENTS GODS STANDARD OR LAW and iots only fulfilled in Christ showing the Love and mercy of God   by Life in the Spirit  and not the flesh and blood  of mankind

But the chosen  of mankind is compared to  His lambs     becoming  new creatures in Christ

  and this is also why I love    Pauls account of Galatians   4        the Isaacs     the sons of promise     born from above by the Holy Spirit    John 3   faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying         babes  as slaves are no different than a son     but   that difference is      that are  going on into maturity   Hebrews 4

  and the ishmaels     are those  sons  that torment   the sons of God   Gen 16   11The angel of the LORD said to her further, "Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.

12"He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers." 13Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"



    the law come thu Moses   and the Ishmael's use this law and standard to torment     the sons of   God   and grace come  faith in Jesus Christ  , we see just How  tormented   Jesus was  by them     called scribes and Pharisees and hypocrites  [Ismaels    using the standard / SWORD /WORD OF GOD   against   his brothers                   

Why did God decide to make this happen  in this manner ?

   That we  would not loose heart and  faith would increase   , just as the grace would  when iniquity would abound       , the grace would abound the more

   There are a  lot of spiritual  beings out here and now , but you could never ever tell by simply looking at them   ,   because many are still in the flesh  and are judged by their flesh   still   
and yet we are told not to  '' touch it   ''or ''handle it  ''  till the Lord comes  , we are the judge nothing before the time ,  till the Lord comes with the Light to   blind the wicked  and put that man of sin to death  by His breath of coming      to them , just  as He has done with us     

Oh Paul says the old man of sin rises up in his flesh from time to time and we are to put to death    those deeds  , by putting on Christ    Romans  13
...13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

  Children of the Day and children of the Light  are doing just that ,   just as the LORD  JESUS CHRIST commands them by  the HOLY SPIRIT IN POWER   

This has become longer than planned  :sigh:

[rosered]

The way I see it all is: We are all like School children. There are those who are in first grade, who have a little of the truth and it goes on up to graduation. Not everyone is given the whole truth. We can't look down on those who are in first grade because that is all they are given at this time. We, who believe in the salvation of all see ourselves as graduates but even we aren't given the full truth but we might know more than those who are in a grade lower than us. We can't expect a first grader to know what a twelveth grader knows. Nor can we expect any of the lower graders to know what a graduate knows.

I feel I am in the twelveth grade but I am still learning. I pray I never stop learning or growing in this life. Because I am in the twelveth grade does that make me smarter than the rest? Absolutely not!! It is not anything that I have done but it is all HIM.

CHB

Amen  well said   CHB !! 

ISAACS OR ISHMAEL'S ITS THE LORD WHOM DOES THE WORKS  BY HIS OWN SPIRIT AND POWER  AND GOOD PLEASURE  :HeartThrob:

[Caffus]

Yes, there are ET believers who really love God and others. One of my closest long time friends is ET. I so want her to know the Truth of UR. But I have to wait on the Lord and only share as He leads. This develops patience..although it is painful.  I want the whole world to know it now. Becuase, I know it's the Truth and what joy, love and peace it brings. But, there is a time for everything and God is in control and He knows all His plans and how they will all work together for good in the end. She has had one of those near death experiences and she is fully convinced God told her shed stay in hell forever if she didn't give her life to him. She also reads parallel Bible versions and says they say basically the same thing. Im sure they're all hell bibles. She says we just can't understand God fully..which is true, but this idea is used by ET believers to excuse and accept ET doctrine. But they're taking Isaiah 55:8 out of context, to defend ET. When if you are able to see and you read the whole chapter of Isaiah 55, it is undeniably speaking of Gods unmatched mercy, love and compassion. We can't convince anyone without the Holy Spirit, so I have to follow His lead. :Pray:

[Tom]

I think mystical experiences are affected by our prior spiritual beliefs, and that's why some folks experience bum trips about "hell." I had an out of body experience that involved me looking down at myself in a hospital bed and then rushing through spooky darkness before I came into the light which was an experience of total peace and unconditional love without any language communicating it. The knowledge was just intuitive. When I was back in my body, I was compelled to look in the drawer beside the bed where there was nothing but a Gideon Bible. I wasn't familiar with the Bible because I was raised Catholic, but I picked up that book and started reading it. I became overwhelmed with emotion at the realization that God was really talking to me through the words in that book. The point is that I didn't experience the common misconception of "hell," but I did feel hopeless rushing through the intense darkness right before I was in the light. I think that whole trip was symbolic of what I was going through in my life at the time while I'd been seeking the truth through means that were counterfeit even though I didn't realize that at the time. In other words, I was seeking the light in the darkness, but I finally saw the light. That's why I know the truth is the word of God. I think folks who have those heavy duty "hell" trips must have had that theology deep in their subconscious before their out of body experiences. People from different cultures have different mystical experiences that contain symbolism reflecting their spiritual beliefs. I don't remember hellfire and brimstone preaching in the Catholic Church when I was a kid, but I was definitely told about "hell" and even told my mom was going there just for being Methodist which I thought was strange and not cool. Your friend shared her mystical experience with you. I think you should share what you've learned from God with her. You could break the ice by bringing up her experience, and then reveal what you've learned to give her peace. She should want to do God's will our of love not fear. I don't see how it would do her any good to without the truth from her. Go for it.

[sheila]

 what about Jude 23..save some through fear and some through compassion? The law covenant on the Mount...the people feared...

  for their own good. snatch out of the fire=loped off branches cast in the fire. regarding Joshua the High priest..is this not a

  branch plucked out of the fire? A healthy fear can restrain from evil..until love comes. Just as a countries laws can restrain evil

knowing that 'authorities' are put in place to deal with lawlessness.

    I am convinced that those God attempts to deal with...and will not heed Him...He may turn over to satan for the destruction of their

flesh......and snatch them from that same fire..at exactly the right time.short of destruction..ready to listen/heed Him.

  escaping through the skin of their teeth..

   fear can turn into a healthy respect/awe of God through discipline...and can keep you until maturity respect and love develope.

   fear of losing your wife can restrain a man from adultery. Fear of loss of the one you love can restrain your actions.


   I have a neighbor here...who had a near/death expierence[he lived a debauched life/hard man]

it was not pleasant.....evil spirits were consuming him!  but then..he heard a voice..." I've got plans for you" and he was snatched by the

hair of the head out of there.  a whole different attitude after the expierence.....

   I think God can use both ways to save people.  we can learn the easier way by heeding Him..or learn the hard way..but learn we will

[Caffus]

Thank you, Tom...I have talked to her a great deal about UR. She and other ET believers prayed for me to get a greater understanding of Gods truth..when I was seeking God with my whole heart. And...there was a time when I felt I could do a better job than God, if I had his power.  And I said well, I can't fix everything for everyone and she said, because your not God.  A year later God reminded me of how I was feeling at the time..how I wanted people to become whole, healed and happy...that He CAN do this, and He will in His time.  That is when I knew UR is true, and He keeps confirming it to me, through the Bible, through His Spirit and through others..like this site. I told her all this already, I even gave here the word study on aionios article from mercifultruth website.  I did all that, because I did feel God wanted me to...but I dont feel He wants me to continually argue or hound her or press on her about it...but to keep her in prayer and speak as He leads.

[Tom]

I understand. I thought you hadn't brought it up yet. You planted the seed. Let God make it grow.

[rosered]

what about Jude 23..save some through fear and some through compassion? The law covenant on the Mount...the people feared...

  for their own good. snatch out of the fire=loped off branches cast in the fire. regarding Joshua the High priest..is this not a

  branch plucked out of the fire? A healthy fear can restrain from evil..until love comes. Just as a countries laws can restrain evil

knowing that 'authorities' are put in place to deal with lawlessness.

    I am convinced that those God attempts to deal with...and will not heed Him...He may turn over to satan for the destruction of their

flesh......and snatch them from that same fire..at exactly the right time.short of destruction..ready to listen/heed Him.

  escaping through the skin of their teeth..

   fear can turn into a healthy respect/awe of God through discipline...and can keep you until maturity respect and love develope.

   fear of losing your wife can restrain a man from adultery. Fear of loss of the one you love can restrain your actions.


   I have a neighbor here...who had a near/death expierence[he lived a debauched life/hard man]

it was not pleasant.....evil spirits were consuming him!  but then..he heard a voice..." I've got plans for you" and he was snatched by the

hair of the head out of there.  a whole different attitude after the expierence.....

   I think God can use both ways to save people.  we can learn the easier way by heeding Him..or learn the hard way..but learn we will

  Yes the old examples testifiy   this is true 


    19"All my associates abhor me, And those I love have turned against me. 20"My bone clings to my skin and my flesh, And I have escaped only by the skin of my teeth. 21"Pity me, pity me, O you my friends, For the hand of God has struck me....

Luke 10:11
Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.'

Job 2:5
But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."

Job 16:8
You have shriveled me up--and it has become a witness; my gauntness rises up and testifies against me.

Job 33:21
Their flesh wastes away to nothing, and their bones, once hidden, now stick out.

Psalm 102:5
In my distress I groan aloud and am reduced to skin and bones.

Lamentations 4:8
But now they are blacker than soot; they are not recognized in the streets. Their skin has shriveled on their bones; it has become as dry as a stick.

Job 30:30 My skin is black on me, and my bones are burned with heat.


Job 33:19-22 He is chastened also with pain on his bed, and the multitude of his ...

Psalm 22:14-17 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my ...

Psalm 32:3,4 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long...

Psalm 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of your anger; neither ...

Psalm 102:3,5 For my days are consumed like smoke, and my bones are burned as an hearth...

Lamentations 4:8 Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: ...


we suffer here and now   in life and death     , its a  horrible   experience to learn righteousness in the earth     the hard way ...  Jesus said come to HIM   and find rest   for your souls /lives ...

  we are NOT to do as the children done in the past and   harden our hearts   Hebrews 3

14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


15   while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME." 16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

   we are to come out of the   world   and all its wisdom and pomp       , do not handle ,touch not , taste not !!!   
you will experience the wrath of     being children  of disobedience      and the chastening of the Lord ...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The Lord placed in a few "filling stations" in the very beginning of my walk, then took me out. In the last couple of years, He placed me in a Messianic Jewish church.

If you want to see what church looked like in the first century, go to one. These Jews retained their prayers and customs, the same ones Jesus would have spoken and done when He was going to the Temple. The difference is now they know and acknowledge it all points to Christ.

And the difference in hearing the Word discussed via someone who actually speaks the language (the Jewish Messianic Rabbi is recognized as an expert of the book of Isaiah), is astounding. Remember the first 3000 saved on the day of Pentecost, were Jews from at least 18 nations who were there for Pentecost.

[Tom]

I almost went to one once because I figured it would be the closest thing to what was going on back in the beginning in Jerusalem until I found out they were into the same basic doctrine as other churches.

[Caffus]

Well..today I just posted the mercifultruth link on Facebook...I believe He wanted me to in responds to some ET postings.  Sometimes I feel I should be silent ...thats the hardest thing for me now...I love sharing the Truth. I know they will probably protest...but I do it out of love for God and them. Im no longer afraid of what people say or think about me  :dsunny: I also post worship songs on a regular basis. Now Im praying  :Pray:

[joeteekay]

The way I see it all is: We are all like School children. There are those who are in first grade, who have a little of the truth and it goes on up to graduation. Not everyone is given the whole truth. We can't look down on those who are in first grade because that is all they are given at this time. We, who believe in the salvation of all see ourselves as graduates but even we aren't given the full truth but we might know more than those who are in a grade lower than us. We can't expect a first grader to know what a twelveth grader knows. Nor can we expect any of the lower graders to know what a graduate knows.

I feel I am in the twelveth grade but I am still learning. I pray I never stop learning or growing in this life. Because I am in the twelveth grade does that make me smarter than the rest? Absolutely not!! It is not anything that I have done but it is all HIM.

CHB

Amen and triple amen. exactly according to Paul, milk then grow till you handle the meat. :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Personally I'm shuttling between 3rd and 4th and getting sent back at graduation.....all new believers when I meet the new 3rd grade crew and they look at me funny cause I look so old. :dsunny:

[CHB]

micah, if you believe in the salvation of all you are far above the 3rd and 4th.
Sometimes I feel like I am still in Kindergarten but I think it is just the flesh trying to discourage us. If we are still below the fifth then we are back in the days before Jesus Christ.

CHB

[rosered]

I just know its all from the Father  and we are Loved ,

and thankful for   every crumb  and everyone  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

I don't think of us as in grades, but I do think we're all students of the word of God. Some have been at it longer than others, and everybody has their own understanding according to their own life experience and sources of knowledge. Some get hung up on classifications of theology. Some concentrate more on the Hebrew or Greek scriptures, and some seem to prefer more figurative than literal. I try not to get carried away with any particular ideology, just believe scripture is inspired by God, and try to understand the true meaning of it. I don't condemn others for having different interpretations than I do, and I try to keep an open mind. My beliefs have changed over the years as I've gotten new information. I don't think we should get too proud or crazy about our own interpretation of scripture because we're all perceiving it through different perspectives. I don't think we should put anybody else down if they don't see things the way we do. I think we should just all love each other and accept each other regardless of our differences of opinion. I prefer to just look at the various interpretations humorously rather than getting tense about anything the same as I look at life in general. It ain't that serious folks. Sometimes I just have to laugh because it seems like we're arguing about whether it's six or a half dozen. I think "knowledge puffs up, yet love builds up." If we just accept each other in love and realize we're all different even though we have some things in common, then we can just chill out and enjoy the ride together. So I'm not thinking about who is in what grade or who is smarter and who is dumber because I think we should all just help each other and not worry about what level we're at in some imaginary hierarchy. I think we all have Christ as our head who is subject to the Father who is the source of all and the one operating all according to his will. That's my simple perception of a hierarchy. I think all believers should be perceived not vertically but horizontally like one big class of students with everybody good at different things but nobody proud of that because we all know whatever we have is a gift from God to be used to share God's love with each other and the lost souls who need God's love. 

[CHB]

Tom, did you read my post about all of us being like school children? I agree with what you say above but sadly we are all at different levels of understanding that is just a fact of life. I certainly am not condeming anyone for their level of belief, for it is God who gives us our understanding and we are where we are because that is where he wants us to be. My beliefs have also changed over the years, more so since I have been on this forum. I try to keep an open mind and I like to read different points of views on everything.

I never mean to put anyone down or make anyone feel bad about themselves. I was trying to build micah up instead of putting him down by telling him he understands more than the average person because he has the understanding about the salvation of all. Not many have this knowledge. Does that make us smart and them who don't stupid? NO! I didn't mean that at all sorry if anyone thought that. I was just using school as a way of explaining knowledge. Even if we start out in kindergarten we will all graduate eventually but you have to admit that some will graduate before others do...Second resurrection....That is still a fact.

CHB

[Tom]

I wasn't puttin you down, sis, for helping Micah or even your view about different grades in school. I was just puttin some stuff out there that goes on with various believers in general, and saying I think all of us believers are in one class with everybody good at some things and others at other things. I think there's only two classes left because Christ already "graduated" as you say.

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

[micah7:9]

Tom, did you read my post about all of us being like school children? I agree with what you say above but sadly we are all at different levels of understanding that is just a fact of life. I certainly am not condeming anyone for their level of belief, for it is God who gives us our understanding and we are where we are because that is where he wants us to be. My beliefs have also changed over the years, more so since I have been on this forum. I try to keep an open mind and I like to read different points of views on everything.

I never mean to put anyone down or make anyone feel bad about themselves. I was trying to build micah up instead of putting him down by telling him he understands more than the average person because he has the understanding about the salvation of all. Not many have this knowledge. Does that make us smart and them who don't stupid? NO! I didn't mean that at all sorry if anyone thought that. I was just using school as a way of explaining knowledge. Even if we start out in kindergarten we will all graduate eventually but you have to admit that some will graduate before others do...Second resurrection....That is still a fact.

CHB

No Worries :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

As I sometimes say, we are ALL like school children sitting in on a Master's class.  Sometimes we can't wrap our minds around what is being taught, but that's OK.  Understanding comes sooner or later.  The important thing is to pay attention.