hellbusting hell

[darryl]

"Hellbuster!"  :thumbsup: I like that title!

I keep coming across conspiracy theories and the idea of conspiracy theories.. Now I know there's a spiritual conspiracy.. or that would be, imo..

But I found myself wondering if there are indeed humans who actively work to keep the idea of 'hell' in christianity. I know there's the idea that 'hell' was put into the faith by humans to keep 'lesser' humans in line.. I've usually leaned toward thinking.. nah, it's just a spiritual conspiracy.. the liar and "father of lies" planted 'hell' on the earth and in christianity.. but he may have used humans to do so, or I imagine he had to use humans.. but whether those humans knew they planting a falsehood .... :dontknow:

Same with today. Strongly held untruths (dis-beliefs?) are held strongly in place, I believe, by (imo) what science now calls nonhuman entities - they think are et's but I think of as (the) fallen angels - dark entities (L Ron Hubbard and Aleister Crowley tried to bring through portals/gates - like we need more of them on planet earth :faint: ) but I digress..

Are there humans who know 'hell' is bunk but they work to keep it in christianity/over the masses?

I read this.. well, it's on a youtube video I just started watching..

word description Mammon:
"mammon/submit (G3126 - don't know where they got "submit" :Chinscratch: )
wealth regarded as an evil influence
or false object of worship or devotion
taken by medieval writers as the name of the devil of covetousness,
and revived in this sense by Milton"

"mammon" search - 5 verses - https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=mammon&version=NIV;AMP;KJV;NKJV;YLT&searchtype=all&resultspp=100

conclusion: no personification of "mammon" in the bible, that I know of..

..but there was something about that word.. "submit" -- which I know for sure - to my mind anyway - that there is the spiritual conspiracy to keep 'hell' alive - but I've been wondering every so often,
       are there humans knowingly involved? :Chinscratch: :dontknow:

Does any one else wonder about this? or have any thoughts? Do you believe there IS a spiritual conspiracy to keep hell alive?
      :Peace2: :smile:

(and does this topic title show a preoccupation/obsession with that particular blasphemy, hell? just kidding!)

not really a conspiracy ...the doctrine of eternal punishment can be easily misconstrued from the New Testament...after all, the NT speaks of 'gnashing of teeth', a 'lake of fire', worm never dies  etc etc..read in a superficial way, the 'eternal hellfire' doctrine can easily be gleaned from the New testament.

[marie glen]

It's funny but in "Paradise Lost" by John Milton, can be seen ideas adopted by some believers in the church.. It's kind of interesting.. Also is good to know our Bible! So we can keep the biblical straight from the not biblical..

This is a short summary of "Paradise Lost"..

http://www.paradiselost.org/5-sum-short.html

[eaglesway]

 I personally think UR believers have to be careful that in reacting against the ET gospel, they do not attempt to remove all punishment from the scriptures and the gospel.  EVERY prophet and apostle, including Jesus our Lord, speaks in some measure of punishment for stubborn wickedness and countless stories from Cain and Abel up until the book of John's revelation bear witness to the fact that God must sometimes be rather harsh with mankind- corporately and individually. To take this aspect of His character out of His word turns it into a saltless fairy tale.

Master Jesus spoke on many occasions of the "fire prepared for the devil and His angels", "aionian pyr", "aionian kolassis", "Gehenna", "unquenchable fire"......

Whatever these things represent metaphorically, is a great subject and a wide ranging one, but the reality they represent is not myth, fable or fairy tale. There is an aspect of fearsome consequence for persistent wickedness and predatory evil. God is not mocked and His justice, though it will be swallowed up by mercy, can be quite severe on the way to its intended goal- which is to bring acknowledgment, repentance, conversion and restoration.


Psalm 32

When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
            Through my groaning all day long.

      4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
            My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.

Selah.
      5I acknowledged my sin to You,
            And my iniquity I did not hide;
            I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD";
            And You forgave the guilt of my sin.

Selah.
      6Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found;
            Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him.

      7You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble;

The Great Waters come to bring us to the end of our own way, and when they do, God is waiting there with an outstretched hand, but He knows us, and knows our ways....

Psalm 107

There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the shadow of death,
Prisoners in misery and chains,
11 Because they had rebelled against the words of God
And spurned the counsel of the Most High.
12 Therefore He humbled their heart with labor;
They stumbled and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble;
He saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death
And broke their bands apart.
15 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
16 For He has shattered gates of bronze
And cut bars of iron asunder.

17 Fools, because of their rebellious way,
And because of their iniquities, were afflicted.
18 Their soul abhorred all kinds of food,
And they drew near to the gates of death.
19 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble;
He saved them out of their distresses.
20 He sent His word and healed them,
And delivered them from their destructions.
21 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
22 Let them also offer sacrifices of thanksgiving,
And tell of His works with joyful singing.

In my opinion it is absolutely irrefutable that there will be a penalty phase for the wicked who go out of this life shaking their fists at God. I think anyone who denies this does a disservice to the scriptures and to the gospel itself- as it was delivered, once and for all, by Jesus and the apostles.

I am just as convinced that that penalty phase, whatever it will actually be, will bring repentance, acknowledgement, conversion and joyous restoration to those who emerge from it, and that no man has that knowledge, it is only in the providence of God to know and to deal with it unto an end that will cuase every knee to bow, and every tongue to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to be reconciled and gathered into the "ALL IN ALL". :o)

[Dandelion]

Whatever happens to us after death, I am thinking, has the same basic purpose that our life has had, and that is to give ourselves to God; for the 'old self' to die, and for us to be transformed, to be like Christ. Now, after death, that might play out very differently, than it has in this world. But, I believe, however it plays out, the purpose is the same. And, our omnipotent God knows very well how to get us there. And, I have no doubt, He will do whatever it takes to have us accomplish this....in His loving and just ways. And, yes, sometimes it is harsh. We can all attest to our own journeys, and know full well how hard the road can be to transforming our fallen, stubborn selves. I might have said this before, but I used to tell my children, to open the door when God knocks, because next time, He will need to knock harder on the door.

Our faith always revolves around the pivotal event of the cross and the Resurrection. We must die with Him, to rise with Him. We must let go of our lives, to truly be who we were always meant to be, just as Jesus laid down His life for us.

...17The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father." John 10:17-18

And that, I believe is what is meant to happen to us humans, whether on a battlefield, holding a crying baby, or in a 'lake of fire'. Or anywhere else, we might find ourselves. Are we letting go of our carnal nature and assuming more and more of God's? If the answer is no, we are getting further away from our ultimate goal, but if it is yes, then we are in His will and finding our way home.

6For I am confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6

Interesting discussion, you all.      :gsmile:

My  :2c:

D.

[chester-blowfold]

eaglesway, how long will the repentance punishment last?

[marie glen]

Amen, Eaglesway.. and Dandelion..

I believe there will also be deep weeping and gnashing of teeth.. Look at the horrors Isis is doing.. and predators running loose doing all manner of unspeakable evil against even children.. and then murdering them.. I will lose no sleep over thinking they will get a just recompense.. To me, it's simply a question of when is the purifying (death to self process) of the lake of fire.. during, and or, towards the end of judgment 'day' or as a measure of time between judgement 'day' and Tabernacles, when the Father becomes/is "all in all".. When I thought it was a 2nd death, as death and annihilation, I figured no one would end up there, but that the weeping and gnashing of teeth, great remorse and deep burning shame and torment would occur during what I think of as the age of judgment.. (a scenario like the parable of lazarus and the rich man, and outer darkness).

And, I believe there will be fiery judgment upon the nations.. ps 2.. and fiery results of man's own doings.. experience may be painful, at times, but it is a very good teacher..

[darryl]

I personally think UR believers have to be careful that in reacting against the ET gospel, they do not attempt to remove all punishment from the scriptures and the gospel.  EVERY prophet and apostle, including Jesus our Lord, speaks in some measure of punishment for stubborn wickedness and countless stories from Cain and Abel up until the book of John's revelation bear witness to the fact that God must sometimes be rather harsh with mankind- corporately and individually. To take this aspect of His character out of His word turns it into a saltless fairy tale.

Master Jesus spoke on many occasions of the "fire prepared for the devil and His angels", "aionian pyr", "aionian kolassis", "Gehenna", "unquenchable fire"......

Whatever these things represent metaphorically, is a great subject and a wide ranging one, but the reality they represent is not myth, fable or fairy tale. There is an aspect of fearsome consequence for persistent wickedness and predatory evil. God is not mocked and His justice, though it will be swallowed up by mercy, can be quite severe on the way to its intended goal- which is to bring acknowledgment, repentance, conversion and restoration.


Psalm 32

When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away
            Through my groaning all day long.

      4For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me;
            My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.

Selah.
      5I acknowledged my sin to You,
            And my iniquity I did not hide;
            I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD";
            And You forgave the guilt of my sin.

Selah.
      6Therefore, let everyone who is godly pray to You in a time when You may be found;
            Surely in a flood of great waters they will not reach him.

      7You are my hiding place; You preserve me from trouble;

The Great Waters come to bring us to the end of our own way, and when they do, God is waiting there with an outstretched hand, but He knows us, and knows our ways....

Psalm 107

There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the shadow of death,
Prisoners in misery and chains,
11 Because they had rebelled against the words of God
And spurned the counsel of the Most High.
12 Therefore He humbled their heart with labor;
They stumbled and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble;
He saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death
And broke their bands apart.
15 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
16 For He has shattered gates of bronze
And cut bars of iron asunder.

17 Fools, because of their rebellious way,
And because of their iniquities, were afflicted.
18 Their soul abhorred all kinds of food,
And they drew near to the gates of death.
19 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble;
He saved them out of their distresses.
20 He sent His word and healed them,
And delivered them from their destructions.
21 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
22 Let them also offer sacrifices of thanksgiving,
And tell of His works with joyful singing.

In my opinion it is absolutely irrefutable that there will be a penalty phase for the wicked who go out of this life shaking their fists at God. I think anyone who denies this does a disservice to the scriptures and to the gospel itself- as it was delivered, once and for all, by Jesus and the apostles.

I am just as convinced that that penalty phase, whatever it will actually be, will bring repentance, acknowledgement, conversion and joyous restoration to those who emerge from it, and that no man has that knowledge, it is only in the providence of God to know and to deal with it unto an end that will cuase every knee to bow, and every tongue to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to be reconciled and gathered into the "ALL IN ALL". :o)

yes....somebody said it would be great if God offered unilateral forgiveness for absolutely everybody after death, regardless of their standing in Christ...but, as you point out, this idea is not Biblical..looks like there will be a 'corrective chastening'  for those who leave this world in their sin, without the covering of the Blood of Christ.But, this wont be permanent...God didn't create anyone whom He could not ultimately redeem..that is the glory of our UR belief !..the ultimate victory of God..through His love !...through Christ ! :banana: :dsunny:

[darryl]

eaglesway, how long will the repentance punishment last?

you ask Eaglesway this but in my belief it will take as long as it needs to...to get the 'job' done (as it were )...how long exactly is not for me to know..I simply trust that in the end, EVERY knee will bow to God..as it says in the Bible.

[eaglesway]

I agree with Darryl. An instant or an aion, depending on the person.

My personal belief from the scriptures is that the fire is the face/presence of Jesus Christ and the word of proceeding from His mouth, living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, making manifest the (secret/hidden) thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Jesus says "I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts".

Pauls says "their consciences either accusing them or excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ." Romans 2

In Rev 1 we see Jesus and His eyes are as flames of fire and His face shines like the sun shining in its strength.

The light shines into the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.

All the veils of flesh will be burned away by this light. Some may cling more tightly than others.

We have the opportunity to shed them now..."If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

"In that Day I will slay Leviathan the twisting fleeing serpent. In that Day Sing of it! A vineyard! I water it day and night." Is 26

So, I see it as not so much as the repentence punishment, but a painful process of enlightenment for the stubborn of heart :o)

They were baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan as they confessed their sins

[rosered]

I believe there is great judgments  going on now as well  as to come  , by the scriptures  saying       1 Peter 4 12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial that has come upon you, as though something strange were happening to you.


13But rejoice that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed at the revelation of His glory.

14If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.


b 15Indeed, none of you should suffer as a murderer or thief or wrongdoer, or even as a meddler.

16But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear this name.

17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? 18And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should entrust their souls to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.



I Know vengeance it is the Lords and he will repay     everyone accordingly

oh the shame of the nakedness/sin  exposed  does not appear , but confess our  sins    and is faithful and just to forgive us .


Revelation 16:15
"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed."



I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich;

and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear;

and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

blinded and naked   is a shameful state      , is this why we are to pray for   everyone  because LOVE covers and multitude of sins


1peter 4 Living for God's Glory
...7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and sober, so you can pray. 8Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9  Show hospitality to one another without complaining....


Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.

Proverbs 17:9
He who conceals a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends.

1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

James 5:20
consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth, so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart.


I know Job had to pray for his  terrible friends    , and when He did God did not hold them in contempt    and gave Job   double portion more than  he had before his   encounter with


God and satan sifting him like wheat ...    Chapter 42,

After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly;

for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them; and the Lord accepted Job's prayer.
And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. (Job 42:7-10 )

[Reverend G]

One has to ask,  "How much punishment is necessary?".  God is sinless, and abhors even the most minor sin.  No human is without sin.  The sinless Christ took the punishment for all our sins.  Thus no corrective punishment is needed for any human.  The lake of fire does not punish, it purifies, so we are not as if in rags when we enter the kingdom.  Either Christ was an acceptable sacrifice for the sins of all men, or He was not.  No "sort-of's" allowed.

[GodIsLove]

One has to ask,  "How much punishment is necessary?".  God is sinless, and abhors even the most minor sin.  No human is without sin.  The sinless Christ took the punishment for all our sins.  Thus no corrective punishment is needed for any human.  The lake of fire does not punish, it purifies, so we are not as if in rags when we enter the kingdom.  Either Christ was an acceptable sacrifice for the sins of all men, or He was not.  No "sort-of's" allowed.

Yes! Purifying, not punishing.

Punishment was used in the OT. It produces outward change but not inward. God purifies us all, in our own order and own timeline.

[marie glen]

I agree with Darryl. An instant or an aion, depending on the person.

My personal belief from the scriptures is that the fire is the face/presence of Jesus Christ and the word of proceeding from His mouth, living and active and sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, making manifest the (secret/hidden) thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Jesus says "I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts".

Pauls says "their consciences either accusing them or excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ." Romans 2

In Rev 1 we see Jesus and His eyes are as flames of fire and His face shines like the sun shining in its strength.

The light shines into the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.

All the veils of flesh will be burned away by this light. Some may cling more tightly than others.

We have the opportunity to shed them now..."If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

"In that Day I will slay Leviathan the twisting fleeing serpent. In that Day Sing of it! A vineyard! I water it day and night." Is 26

So, I see it as not so much as the repentence punishment, but a painful process of enlightenment for the stubborn of heart :o)

They were baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan as they confessed their sins

Wow, that may be very true.. after all "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus".

[marie glen]

I believe there is great judgments  going on now as well  as to come  , by the scriptures  saying       1 Peter 4 12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial that has come upon you, as though something strange were happening to you.


13But rejoice that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed at the revelation of His glory.

14If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.


b 15Indeed, none of you should suffer as a murderer or thief or wrongdoer, or even as a meddler.

16But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear this name.

17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? 18And,

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
19So then, those who suffer according to God's will should entrust their souls to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.



I Know vengeance it is the Lords and he will repay     everyone accordingly

oh the shame of the nakedness/sin  exposed  does not appear , but confess our  sins    and is faithful and just to forgive us .


Revelation 16:15
"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed."



I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich;

and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear;

and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

blinded and naked   is a shameful state      , is this why we are to pray for   everyone  because LOVE covers and multitude of sins


1peter 4 Living for God's Glory
...7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and sober, so you can pray. 8Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9  Show hospitality to one another without complaining....


Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.

Proverbs 17:9
He who conceals a transgression seeks love, But he who repeats a matter separates intimate friends.

1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

James 5:20
consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 1:22
Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth, so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart.


I know Job had to pray for his  terrible friends    , and when He did God did not hold them in contempt    and gave Job   double portion more than  he had before his   encounter with


God and satan sifting him like wheat ...    Chapter 42,

After the Lord had spoken these words to Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite: "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly;

for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did what the Lord had told them; and the Lord accepted Job's prayer.
And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. (Job 42:7-10 )

I think you summed that up so very well, Rose.  I have to think about the person at the wedding feast who does not have his wedding garment on.. the parable. Yep, that one is naked and flaws not covered, sins and errors not covered (not yet, praise the Lord). Some perhaps who have been allowed to sink far down in the potentiality of darkness, who's to say? If an everyday person will feel exposure (nakedness) so that shame becomes a punishment and a purifier- shocked into repentance..

Well I can't help but think many of this age have and are training their hearts to deeply dislike our Heavenly Father :mshock:

But even this is "allowed" - the phrase which says "each one (person) in their own time" - implies, I think, another phrase - "according to His will".

How can it be His will? And therefor even glorious? I have to think, because it is all leading to the best possible 'end' result. (His perfect blueprint? All in heaven and earth having become fully convinced of the utter, bottomless pit, futility of life without Yahweh? :dontknow: )

Could be a fearful thing to find ones self in the hands of the living God and immersed in

"The purifying fire of His jealousy and correction"

..at least initially .. until one finds that fire to be love?

Yet without minimizing the great danger of wandering away (in ones heart and mind) from our Creator?

I agree "judgments now and in the age to come.."