"God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.

[UniversalSceptic]

How does one go about countering that defence of Hell?

[dajomaco]

If you were a normal parent.
You would be a better parent than a two year old.

You would have more wisdom than a two year old,
and be better at protecting your child from harm.

If God is the parent and you are the child.
Compared to God you are dumber than a two year old.

What parent lets the two year old decide what's best for the two year old

There is no place called Hell-----unless you are a two year old

[Lazarus Short]

Besides what Dajomaco said (good!) this argument still depends on the pagan concept of the immortality of the soul, which is not taught in the Scriptures.  Besides THAT, if we send ourselves to Hell, that implies god-like powers in us.  Besides THAT, Hell had to be made by someone, and that would have to be Jesus, the Word, Who made all that is (excepting the Father).  If Jesus made Hell, then, He set a trap for us to fall into, and the argument collapses of its own weight.  Absurd.  :doh:

[Tom]

How does one to about countering that defence of Hell?

Church people should ask themselves what they think the church was trying to hide when it tortured and killed people just for reading scripture. The church did not want people to know the truth about universal reconciliation and the salvation of all mankind. The church failed to suppress scripture by killing people with fire, but the church committed forgery in the translation of scripture to deceive people and control them with fear of torture in fire forever. The common misconception of "hell" is a lie perpetrated by the church. The word "hell" is an Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. "Gehenna" is confused with "hell" by intentional mistranslation twelve times in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna," the ravine of Hinnom southwest of Jerusalem, was used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god. "Gehenna" was later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon. Christ referred to Isaiah's prophecy when he spoke of "Gehenna." "And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24) "The lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14-KJV). Even the adulterated versions of scripture say God is the savior of all mankind who will reconcile all through Christ so that God may be all in all. "...we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10) "...through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:20) "Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

[Seth]

How does one to about countering that defence of Hell?

Since I don't see that as a defense using scripture, my only response would be, can you show me the scriptures which say that? It's a good ice breaker.

[UniversalSceptic]

How does one to about countering that defence of Hell?

Since I don't see that as a defense using scripture, my only response would be, can you show me the scriptures which say that? It's a good ice breaker.

It's not a defence using scriptures, but I haven't seen a universalist refute that argument, and that is the only argument that I don't know how to refute. It is also used commonly by people who defend Hell. In fact, I just saw that argument used on a atheist yesterday.

[Seth]

A non-scriptural argument doesn't need to be refuted. It just needs to be pointed out as a non-scriptural argument. If they have respect for the scripture, when you point that out, they will start quoting scripture, and at that point you can reveal the false assumptions in their arguments regarding how the Bible is translated and what the symbols mean. The question assumes that hell is real. That's a presupposition which is disputed in scripture.

[Tom]

How does one to about countering that defence of Hell?

Since I don't see that as a defense using scripture, my only response would be, can you show me the scriptures which say that? It's a good ice breaker.

It's not a defence using scriptures, but I haven't seen a universalist refute that argument, and that is the only argument that I don't know how to refute. It is also used commonly by people who defend Hell. In fact, I just saw that argument used on a atheist yesterday.

It's a waste of time to refute what is being implied by the word "hell" in the original post because it does not exist except in the imaginations of those who are misinformed. It should simply be stated that "hell" is actually not what is being implied. Souls die. They don't pass into another form of life when they're dead to be tortured in fire forever. When a living soul dies, it becomes "unseen" which is the modern literal translation of the Greek "hades" translated with the Old English word "hell" in the King James Version. I know some folks love their King James Version, but that word "hell" has morphed into an awful slander of our Father in heaven. It's now a lie that should be banished from all versions of scripture that still have it because it causes much confusion and anguish not to mention irrational fear. Where it is intentionally mistranslated, change it to "Gehenna" which it should be, and where it used for the Greek "hades," change it to "unseen" like the Concordant Version uses because that is what it means. Then it will be obvious that there is no defense of "hell" to counter.

"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Exekiel 18:4)

"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)

"For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Laz is absolutely correct about ET being based on the immortal soul assumption. I don't understand how ET'ers can assume the soul is immortal based on the verses below from the book of Ezikiel. I heard some ET advocates claim that Jesus made our souls immortal after he was resurrected and Hell was created as a place of infinite torture to those who reject him. However, I have yet to see scriptural backing behind it and these same people quote Ezekiel's end time prophecies but yet they neglect the verses he said below.


"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)

[Lazarus Short]

This may be the wrong forum for this, but certainly the right thread - some Christians would look at the bottle of beer and nod in understanding...



[attachment deleted by admin]

[dajomaco]

very apropos

[Lazarus Short]

Or we could just tell Hell-idolaters this:

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[jbertonbounds]

"God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there"

Agh! I HATE that one. I would counter this argument as follows:

[Rom 8:20 ESV] "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope..."
Yah subjected the creation to "futility" by his own will, NOT by the will of the humanity.

[John 15:16 ESV] "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..."
[Jhn 6:65 ESV] "And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"
Following Jesus is NOT our choice. It's HIS choice. You cannot send yourself to heaven.

[Rev 20:15 ESV] "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
[Rom 9:21 ESV] "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"
Rejecting Jesus is NOT our choice. It's HIS choice. You could not send yourself to hell either (if it existed)! This "lake of fire" is not hell, it is a figurative term for the place or disposition of learning righteousness and becoming purified by the "fire" - Yah's spiritual "crucible." Sending someone into this crucible is by HIS "throwing them into" it, NOT by your own choice. Besides, to think that anyone would knowingly choose that kind of torture is absurd! Hell, if it were not just a myth, is NOT the same thing as the lake of fire. It is a mistranslation. It is DEATH. And even YOUR bible says hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Either way, hell (if it existed) or death will be the last enemy to be destroyed, and will exist no more. And that includes the lake of fire, because it IS death.

NO HELL. NO ETERNAL DEATH. NO HUMAN CHOICE IN THE MATTER.

[dajomaco]

 :iagree:

[WhiteWings]

How does one go about countering that defence of Hell?

God doesn't sent us to heaven. We do. That statement is just as flawed as the ET one.

We go to heaven because of the redemptive work of Jesus.
We don't go to hell (which only exist in the pagan mind) because of the redemptive work of Jesus.

[RonnyTX]

How does one go about countering that defence of Hell?

Ronny to UniversalSceptic:
You've got  a lot of good replies to your question;but I would still like to add a bit to that,in the way I would put it.

First,you might tell the person,that there was no Jesus Christ created hell,of eternal torment and that God has chosen to save every person and that by way, of Jesus Christ and the cross. Of course,they wouldn't believe that,because they've been taught to believe differently.

Now the flip side to the lie,that some people send themself to hell,the flip side to that,is the other lie that states,some people send themself to heaven. So many people have been taught to believe the lie,that they saved themself. That they had to,because God couldn't. Well,they've been taught to believe the lie,that their will,is stronger than God's. So,God can't save them;but they can choose to do a good thing,believe/repent etc and thereby,save themself. So,some people have been taught to believe,they saved themself  and following and connecting with that,is the lie they've also been taught to believe,that the one who chooses not to do a good work and save themself,that person has chosen to go to hell and will have sent themself there. Well,that hell they've been taught to believe in,is a pagan myth and is not in the Bible,as correctly translated. And the idea/belief, that they can save themself,by a good "free" will choice of their own,that is also a myth and not in the Bible. Will just put in here one scripture,that shows that;but  lot of others,show the same.

"He (Jesus Christ) was in the world and the world was made by him  and the world knew him not. He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him,to them he power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name. Which were born,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man,but of God." John 1:10,13

Now I can't tell you,exactly how to approach a person who tells you,that God doesn't send you to hell;but we send ourselves there. But I can only tell you, how I might do such,when faced with the same situation. And I know I would be sorely tempted to ask that person,did they do something to save themself or did God save them? Now the truth is simple,it is God who saves us,the lost person and not we,who do something good,to save our ownself. And we are saved, because God wills and causes such to happen. It is God who saves us,from start to finish. Yet so many have been taught to believe the lie,that God can save no one. So many taught to believe the lie,that the lost person must do something, out of their own "free" will,to save themself. And they've been taught they can also choose,to not believe and thereby damn themself to hell. So the biggest lie, that such people have been taught to believe,is that they and their will,is stronger and mighter,than God and God's will. So,such people have been taught to make a god out of themself and their so called "free" will. Just so many lies, that so many have been taught to believe,are truths!

[eaglesway]

Which hell does God not send us too? Sheol is translated as hell 50 some times. It is the abode of the dead. We have no details of what it is like. But regardless of how people get there, they won't be there forever because , after all things are subject to Jesus, death will be destroyed, and God will be ALL IN ALL.

If the Hell you refer to is Gehenna, translated hell less than a dozen times, if (as most do) you see that as the lake of fire, Regardless of whether God "sends" people there or not, it will not last forever, because after all things are subject to Jesus, death will be destroyed, and God will be all in all.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Death will be abolished. Sheol (the grave) will be emptied. The lake of fire is the second death, but the "last enemy" to be destroyed, again, is death, so the lake of fire will also be emptied. If death is abolished, there remains only....... LIFE!

[micah7:9]

Which hell does God not send us too? Sheol is translated as hell 50 some times. It is the abode of the dead. We have no details of what it is like. But regardless of how people get there, they won't be there forever because , after all things are subject to Jesus, death will be destroyed, and God will be ALL IN ALL.

If the Hell you refer to is Gehenna, translated hell less than a dozen times, if (as most do) you see that as the lake of fire, Regardless of whether God "sends" people there or not, it will not last forever, because after all things are subject to Jesus, death will be destroyed, and God will be all in all.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Death will be abolished. Sheol (the grave) will be emptied. The lake of fire is the second death, but the "last enemy" to be destroyed, again, is death, so the lake of fire will also be emptied. If death is abolished, there remains only....... LIFE!

Amen! :iagree:.......LIFE!

[Lazarus Short]

As a certain magazine used to say, "LIFE - consider the alternative."

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:

Amen Life     abundantly !!!  John109"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved,


and will go in and out and find pasture.

10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy;

I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. 11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

Some Churches preach the good news and leave out the   hell    fire and torment   
I have a friend  whom goes to church and   they just preach Jesus      and the joy in the Lord and not so much on the     torment
or the ruling and   reigning part   
Just the parts they know and understand     
  I told her that was great and  She knows a lot about the good news and Jesus Christ   
  I was glad to hear her  talk about  her faith !!        :mfriends:

[RonnyTX]

Which hell does God not send us too? Sheol is translated as hell 50 some times. It is the abode of the dead. We have no details of what it is like. But regardless of how people get there, they won't be there forever because , after all things are subject to Jesus, death will be destroyed, and God will be ALL IN ALL.

If the Hell you refer to is Gehenna, translated hell less than a dozen times, if (as most do) you see that as the lake of fire, Regardless of whether God "sends" people there or not, it will not last forever, because after all things are subject to Jesus, death will be destroyed, and God will be all in all.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Death will be abolished. Sheol (the grave) will be emptied. The lake of fire is the second death, but the "last enemy" to be destroyed, again, is death, so the lake of fire will also be emptied. If death is abolished, there remains only....... LIFE!

Ronny to Eaglesway:
It was around 4 and 1/2 years ago,when God showed me the truth of UR. :-) After that,I did more reading and studying by other people,who also believed that way. And I was also posting with a few people,who saw it differently. And who still believed in hell and eternal death,etc. And some brought up the scripture to me,about the lake of fire. Seems they thought that was eternal death and torment,for all who went to hell. And I must of read what some one said about death and Jesus Christ abolishing death. And then it hit me too,that when death is abolished,all that could be left,is life! :-) I'm sure I posted that,at times and in at least one or more places;but the people who disagreed with me, they couldn't see that yet. But I can't remember any of them trying to dispute what I said,about the only thing left is life,when Jesus Christ abolishes death. Yet the way they've been taught to believe,death is eternal. Well,I was brought up in a local church and taught to believe the same thing. Taught that by some people;but not by God. But yet it's obvious,that even with just common sense, some people can't see that all that's left is life,when death is abolished.

[Dandelion]

I think of this issue, myself. But, then, as I read the scriptures in light of this, and pray and ponder it, I am beginning to think that no one can deny Christ, when they are face to face with him. All will fall on bended knee. How could we deny Christ, in his presence? And how could we possibly not feel His tremendous love for us?

Perhaps this will put a new light on Jesus' statement to Thomas: Blessed are those who have not seen and still believed.

In any event, we know that God is love; that He is merciful and that He is just. It will all work out, I have no doubt.

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

How does one go about countering that defence of Hell?

Ronny to UniversalSceptic:
You've got  a lot of good replies to your question;but I would still like to add a bit to that,in the way I would put it.

First,you might tell the person,that there was no Jesus Christ created hell,of eternal torment and that God has chosen to save every person and that by way, of Jesus Christ and the cross. Of course,they wouldn't believe that,because they've been taught to believe differently.

Now the flip side to the lie,that some people send themself to hell,the flip side to that,is the other lie that states,some people send themself to heaven. So many people have been taught to believe the lie,that they saved themself. That they had to,because God couldn't. Well,they've been taught to believe the lie,that their will,is stronger than God's. So,God can't save them;but they can choose to do a good thing,believe/repent etc and thereby,save themself. So,some people have been taught to believe,they saved themself  and following and connecting with that,is the lie they've also been taught to believe,that the one who chooses not to do a good work and save themself,that person has chosen to go to hell and will have sent themself there. Well,that hell they've been taught to believe in,is a pagan myth and is not in the Bible,as correctly translated. And the idea/belief, that they can save themself,by a good "free" will choice of their own,that is also a myth and not in the Bible. Will just put in here one scripture,that shows that;but  lot of others,show the same.

"He (Jesus Christ) was in the world and the world was made by him  and the world knew him not. He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him,to them he power to become the sons of God,even to them that believe on his name. Which were born,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man,but of God." John 1:10,13

Now I can't tell you,exactly how to approach a person who tells you,that God doesn't send you to hell;but we send ourselves there. But I can only tell you, how I might do such,when faced with the same situation. And I know I would be sorely tempted to ask that person,did they do something to save themself or did God save them? Now the truth is simple,it is God who saves us,the lost person and not we,who do something good,to save our ownself. And we are saved, because God wills and causes such to happen. It is God who saves us,from start to finish. Yet so many have been taught to believe the lie,that God can save no one. So many taught to believe the lie,that the lost person must do something, out of their own "free" will,to save themself. And they've been taught they can also choose,to not believe and thereby damn themself to hell. So the biggest lie, that such people have been taught to believe,is that they and their will,is stronger and mighter,than God and God's will. So,such people have been taught to make a god out of themself and their so called "free" will. Just so many lies, that so many have been taught to believe,are truths!

Amen to that Ronny

[Lorenzo]

How does one go about countering that defence of Hell?

If we send ourselves there, and if God truly loves us (He never changes), He doesn't keep us there against our will. So, as soon as our will changes, we're free.

[CHB]

The Baptist believe that everyone will be made alive, a few in heaven and a lot in hell. They don't deny that everyone will have life. They do believe that we send ourselves to hell but we can do nothing to send ourselves to heaven. Wierd, I would say.  :Chinscratch: The key to it all according to them is BELIEVE AND ACCEPT JESUS. They don't look at this as a work nor do they see it as us saving ourselves. I can't wait till the day when the eyes of the blind are opened. I may need a little eye salve myself.

CHB