Reconciling the adversaries, Restoring the whole creation

[marie glen]

P.S - I was thinking about "dragon" and Revelation chapter 4, verses 6-11. The "four living creatures" with six wings, etc. Which I would think of as being sort of living machines.. but also as creatures, for they sing... :dontknow: How terrible, I can't remember what are seraphim and teraphim(?) oiye, better review tomorrow.. Angel's have appeared as men.. on earth.. but I think there may be other heavenly creatures.. Angel's/winds/messengers of a higher order.. and one of these was 'Lucifer' or that is, the [original/first adversary - which was intended by God to speed this nature running its course 'program'/drama(?) along?]

Then (mostly) metaphorically, the fine, soft feathers of the angel became the hard scales of the dragon.. fire breathing.. oops! Maybe not.. little carried away there.. :laughing7:

[eaglesway]

I think are probably many classes of angels and other heavenly creatures. Seems like since that which is heavenly exceeds that which is earthly and since God is SO creative, that would be so.

Who knows, maybe thats where the "greys" come from  :laughing7:

[rosered]

Very nice verses Rose! :dsunny:

..."punishing those God didn't choose" - this is one reason why I sometimes think few will actually go to the lake of fire.. just a few (relatively speaking) despots.. or some who have trained their heart to habitually, no matter what, reject God. A sin unable to be forgiven? while held to, that is? Other times, because of the horrors of history, I think many will experience the wrath of God.. But then again, half the time, I think a majority of that will be via what's called "the apocalypse" when man's empire, finally gone global and predatory, crashes and burns. A graphic example to all.

In the way that I think of things, I can't help thinking that in God's truth proving drama, there has to be those wicked doers who do so wickedly they trigger the very 'burning' wrath of God - like when humans offered babes alive in fire to idols.. What righteous God worth His salt wouldn't be angry!? History is full of some terrible stuff. So I find myself thinking there will be a lot of weeping and burning shame on day of judgment following the resurrection of all who rise (eeek) still in their sins, not yet chosen of God..
:2c: :smile:

  Sis Marie ,
  I always enjoy what you share !!!

ALL   my bros and sister make me think   upon  things with much more depth    , than just scratching the surface ...

I do believe   many  many  natural  minded folk  struggle with  perceiving   and even    defining what   sin is .

When you ask a person," what is sin ?  ,"     Most never have a simple nor clear answer .

    Error   and" missing   the mark"   is  the  simple answer , but has so many  variables  in meaning as so many  peoples lives are vastly  different .


  Even more   is how does God     see us  as His own creation , His ways are not our ways   for sure .

    Bible Says the world is already judged  as  darkness   and not Light   , Yet God so loved the world  He sent the Light  to save it  in John 3 .

  So that gives us  so much to consider ,   if the world is the darkness and ignorance of God  , we waste a lot of time judging the darkness   as sin  and death .

, this seems to be the futile   "works"  in my own opinion ,  that is the vanity    creation is "subject too" .  Only because God has judged it already   .

I  am under the impression , this was Paul's   beautiful  testimony  and as being a witness as   to SEEING this great Light    on the personal level     that blinded him    with brilliance     and  he went on     to claim  as    to  not knowing anything  now except  Jesus Christ and Him crucified  .

  Leaving those elementary  and child  like   things  behind him     spoken of in Hebrews 6  , knowing that LIFE   though the Spirit of Life by the WORD OF TRUTH was    leaving death behind him and was in the new reconciling     the world , such darkness  though Jesus Christ ministry  of healing and saving      cleansing the  minds of  old clutter    as   preparing chastened virgins   for Christ coming      to be a    birthing the new and living way     for   the sons of God to be   revealed in Christ  , this special anointing that come though the  one of a kind   firstfruits  of Gods increase   SON   , FULL of truth and grace .
CHILDREN  OF THE DAY AND LIGHT is the new  creation that  pleases GOD and is sinless in the sense    of this  ,  no error   in the TRUTH setting them free   from

the bondage of death and judging it  anylonger , but  go on into  completeness    / perfection    that being the endless Life in Christ as the LORD of the dead and the Living  till all be made ALIVE  and  presented to the FATHER THE LIVING GOD   and serving HIM ONLY  in Spirit  and truth .

  The greatest clue   to me was GODS CREATION IS HELD IN CHRIST   NOW as all things  were  created for Him and in Him all things are held  Col 1  helped so much to    let it sink into my  ears and  heart   to understand the magnitude    of such a powerful    LIVING   Supreme  WORD ..


For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, ... because in Him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the .... 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

This UR  message  can help so many now   struggling with  the darkness  of sin and death   in their own lives and hearts   working against the Light that come to save them  in the first place ..
  Seeing things differently  and in a whole new perspective   is changing our minds  "repentance "  from the  natural    view of things to    a  whole  another    world of Light and Life where GOD IS SOOOO GLORIOUS and never knew what I was missing   my own whole earthly existence    before  the LIGHT come to change [mind of Christ  the  anointing  Salvation  of GOD HIMSELF ] this dark and dismal   view     that some how depended on me   to change my self  and saw   if God made it a leopard  , a type of beast ,  can it change its spots ?

ONLY GOD CAN CHANGE  our minds and hearts and this to me is by SEEING HIM   , no man has ever seen God at any time  , But  in John 1  we see JESUS

THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD and ONLY begotten of the Father  [ IN CHRIST  MIND / HEART , LIGHT, LIFE  ,WE CAN  SEE  GOD ]   The Word Became flesh
...17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

19And this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him, "Who are you?"...

   What a gift of great grace   is this  to be made known and  shared  as our witness/testimony  !!!WOW !! :HeartThrob:  This simplicity is Christ is glorious!!!!!!!!

[CST]

Nice post CST.

Another really good look at what the dragon is is in Isaiah 27

In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
            With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
            Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
            And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

He will slay the dragon that lives in the deep.... to me this is figurative. The light of day pursues the "author of confusion(chaos)" into the deep deep places where he lurks and twists, justifying himself. "In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters and GOD SAID.... the GREAT  and MIGHTY sword of His word....LET THERE BE LIGHT.

But yet, it is also literal, for all these things will be brought to light by the Day of His appearing.

But further as to the metaphor

Leviathan lives in all the sons of pride..

the whole of Job 41 explains him metaphorically

31"He makes the depths boil like a pot;
            He makes the sea like a jar of ointment.

      32"Behind him he makes a wake to shine;
            One would think the deep to be gray-haired.

      33"Nothing on earth is like him,
            One made without fear.

      34"He looks on everything that is high;
            He is king over all the sons of pride."

I think tfurther his is explained also in Heb 4

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Let there be light, light divided from darkness, chaos and emptiness into harmony and fulness.

This is what I think aionian kolassis(Gehenna, the lake of fire) is- not physical torment of anykind, but rather being pentrated by the light and having Leviathan pulled up from the deep and slain(deceptive prideful heart pierced by the sword of the Spirit, every veil torn by the light of His countenance)

I do believe many will bow the knee instantly and rejoice, but ersonally, I dont think it ill be "just a few hard cases" that experience aionian kolassis in the lake of fire.

The question is (imo) not, "Who will not believe?" in the sense of, "Who will not believe what their eyes see".

That is not what it means to believe in the biblical sense.

We who adore Him can perhaps not fathom aionian adversaries standing before the throne unwilling to acknowledge their rebellion, but I have seen people shake their fist at God as they walked through the door into eternity and I have seen wickedness and depravity at such deep levels that I both believe that many adversaries are harder of heart than we can imagine- and I believe that there are sins committed in this world that can ONLY be answered in the olam of God.

Leviathan ...

14"Who can open the doors of his face?
            Around his teeth there is terror.

      15"His strong scales are his pride,
            Shut up as with a tight seal.

      16"One is so near to another
            That no air can come between them.

Only the sharp two edged sword that comes from the mouth of the Lord can pierce Him

The scriptures clearly say that there will be people who experience aionian consequences for their earthly acts and attitudes.

God is not, imo, one to warn people about something He has no intention of invoking, or to strongly speak to a recompense that He never intends to levy upon those who mock Him.

For instance, I agree that Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years, with ten thousands of ten thousands of resurrected saints as preists on earth- but all through that 1000 years their will still be enemies, adversaries and sinners to subject...

and at the end of the thousand years the adversary will be released and there will be a final rebellion into which, it appears a vast number of people will fall. So "Who can see and not believe"? apparently many can see and "not convert".

Otherwise ther would be no need of ANY MENTION of aionian kolassis.

Yet, there are scriptural warnings to the wicked concerning aionian consequences or wickedness from JESUS AND EVERY APOSTLE.

James says...

THE DEVILS BELIEVE AND TREMBLE....

That kind of belief will not save from aionian consequences, imo-

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. 2Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. 3Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire.

While I rejoice with joy unspekable and full of glory that every advesary will be reconciled, I dont think the process to "subjection" will be pleasant for all of them and I continue to warn such of the judgment to come.

If we're talking about the 'dragon that lives in the sea' as Leviathan than it sounds less like Satan and more like his seven headed servant that corrupts the World (if there's really a difference). But 'Leviathan is in many ways more difficult than 'dragon' because it's a Hebrew word everyone simply transliterates directly as clearly no-one really knows what it means. The Job reference is interesting in this matter because both Satan and Leviathan appear and don't seem to be the same thing. And in section of Job you mention it also reads (unless I've misunderstood) 'In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.' (Job 41:22) I'm pretty sure both Satan and the Beast produce and much prefer sorrow over joy so this line seems a bit anomalous when painting a portrait of an evil monster. I word appears four time in The Old Testament and never in the New.

I repeat what I said about struggling to believe the Lake Of Fire an empty threat however, that 'but...' I mentioned waxes strong. What I'm about to say confuses me because it should be incredibly helpful for those like us who advocate UR yet I don't know that it is because I'm not sure what to mention it. It's about the Lake of Fire representing the Wrath of God as ET people clearly like to argue, the endless wrath of God visited on endlessly wicked sinners. The word 'wrath' appears in the Revelation 13 times according to how it is translated in the KJV (I hope to check the facts of this representation later) and is generally attached to some pretty scary stuff but while it's eight appearance is in many ways no less scary it also somewhat reassuring because it reads thus: 'Then I saw another portent in heaven, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is ended.' Some translations say 'finished' some 'completed but the general understanding is that even though the book uses the word four more times (subject to checking the Greek) the wrath of God has a conclusion. It's not infinite as the ET lot would like to have us believe. So this is very reassuring except that it's also not connected to the Lake of Fire the last mention of the word 'wrath' is slightly ahead (and a different Greek word - that needed checking immediately) of the appearance of the Lake of Fire and the White Throne Judgement. So if the Lake of Fire does not represent the wrath of God, which the claim that it does (although that may depend on the strength of the Greek words involved), what is it? What's God doing consigning people there if not fulfilling 'wrath'? Sounds so useful to us UR proponents except it suggest something doesn't have to be wrathful to be unpleasant. It confuses me a lot about how to understand the Lake of Fire knowing (with pretty reliable certainty) that it is not an instrument of God's wrath (which it could be but not 'the wrath of God' as described in the phrase that describes something that has a conclusion.

I'm unclear about the 1000 years it confuses me for many reasons.

Very nice verses Rose! :dsunny:

..."punishing those God didn't choose" - this is one reason why I sometimes think few will actually go to the lake of fire.. just a few (relatively speaking) despots.. or some who have trained their heart to habitually, no matter what, reject God. A sin unable to be forgiven? while held to, that is? Other times, because of the horrors of history, I think many will experience the wrath of God.. But then again, half the time, I think a majority of that will be via what's called "the apocalypse" when man's empire, finally gone global and predatory, crashes and burns. A graphic example to all.

In the way that I think of things, I can't help thinking that in God's truth proving drama, there has to be those wicked doers who do so wickedly they trigger the very 'burning' wrath of God - like when humans offered babes alive in fire to idols.. What righteous God worth His salt wouldn't be angry!? History is full of some terrible stuff. So I find myself thinking there will be a lot of weeping and burning shame on day of judgment following the resurrection of all who rise (eeek) still in their sins, not yet chosen of God..
:2c: :smile:

You mentioned the term 'wrath of God' twice there and as you have a special interest in the Revelation may be particularly interested in the above part of my post.

You ask what is 'sin'? This topic has got me asking the opposite question 'what is forgiveness?' clearly forgiveness is a very beautiful thing that is worth more than can be named. Sin is very ugly thing we all want to have as little to do with as possible. Yet the mystery seems to show it's self again in that if we had no sin we would need no forgiveness. Very strange.

[eaglesway]

A few more thoughts on reconciling the adversaries and aionian correction/fire.

There is no "hell" imo. Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for standing in the presence of the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face shines like the sun and out of whose mouth proceeds a two edged sword that divides asunder soul and spirit, until every hidden thing is brought to light,and every knee bows... "their conscience accusing or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ." Rom 2

Many universalists are so conditioned to "hellism" and reacting against it, they hav a difficult time seeing the fire of God in any other context than that of torment in hell, or some kind of purgatory. IMO hell and purgatory are primitive myths intermixed with a corruption of what the scriptures teach about how the judgment of God works- flowing out from the midst of His people. I thnk this why "judgment begins at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem."

All judgment(from God) ends in conviction(exposure/awareness), which ends in repentence(a change of heart and mind), which opens the well of forgiveness and the fountain of the joy of reconciliation and restoration.... "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret" 2 Cor 7:10

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" 1 Cor 6:2

"Every mans work will be tested by fire for the Day" 1 Cor 3:13-15(IMO the Day is the full revelation of His face exalted in the midst of the "great congregation)

"I will give You thanks in the great congregation; I will praise You among a mighty throng." Ps 35

"God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers." Ps 83

"Millions of angels ministered to him; many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened." Dan 7:10

I see it more like a great family intervention among the children of men than anything else.

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven." Heb 12

I think it would be better if we could forget about "hell" and "purgatory" and "torment" and just start from scratch with the scriptures properly translated. Orthodoxy(imo) is often no more than the codification of the errors of churchmen. I do not believe in torment, other than the torment that may come as one begins to see the effect of their deeds and attitudes in the light of God's love expressed through Christ crucified. Once that awareness is come, I believe repentence, forgiveness and restoration follow shortly after.

[CST]

A few more thoughts on reconciling the adversaries and aionian correction/fire.

There is no "hell" imo. Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for standing in the presence of the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face shines like the sun and out of whose mouth proceeds a two edged sword that divides asunder soul and spirit, until every hidden thing is brought to light,and every knee bows... "their conscience accusing or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ." Rom 2

Many universalists are so conditioned to "hellism" and reacting against it, they hav a difficult time seeing the fire of God in any other context than that of torment in hell, or some kind of purgatory. IMO hell and purgatory are primitive myths intermixed with a corruption of what the scriptures teach about how the judgment of God works- flowing out from the midst of His people. I thnk this why "judgment begins at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem."

All judgment(from God) ends in conviction(exposure/awareness), which ends in repentence(a change of heart and mind), which opens the well of forgiveness and the fountain of the joy of reconciliation and restoration.... "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret" 2 Cor 7:10

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" 1 Cor 6:2

"Every mans work will be tested by fire for the Day" 1 Cor 3:13-15(IMO the Day is the full revelation of His face exalted in the midst of the "great congregation)

"I will give You thanks in the great congregation; I will praise You among a mighty throng." Ps 35

"God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers." Ps 83

"Millions of angels ministered to him; many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened." Dan 7:10

I see it more like a great family intervention among the children of men than anything else.

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven." Heb 12

I think it would be better if we could forget about "hell" and "purgatory" and "torment" and just start from scratch with the scriptures properly translated. Orthodoxy(imo) is often no more than the codification of the errors of churchmen. I do not believe in torment, other than the torment that may come as one begins to see the effect of their deeds and attitudes in the light of God's love expressed through Christ crucified. Once that awareness is come, I believe repentence, forgiveness and restoration follow shortly after.

I'm not sure it's meaning full to say 'There is no "Hell" imo.' Hell is a word that corresponds to something in the minds of those that hear it or read it. IMO means that according to your understanding of the Bible which is where you draw your opinion from it doesn't and can't correspond to anything remotely like what it's currently understand it to. Certainly I share this sentiment, so much so it's hard to think of Hell without conflating it with some form of bullying I is obviously unbecoming to God. Nevertheless if the the word does somehow correspond to some aspect of the truth of what God's judgement is that it remains meaningful and I struggle to see how prolonged periods of shame, grief and sorrow cannot be described in some sense as torment, obviously not torture which is different and definitely seems unbecoming to God, but the word certainly doesn't seem entirely misplaced.

Which is why I though it pertinent to put my observation about the Greek behind the word 'wrath' (that and the fact that was the direction the topic seemed to be taking). This is a thread about 'forgiveness' and 'reconciliation'. The terms 'wrath' and 'wrath of God' definitely appear in the English whatever Greek words may be behind them and they seem so juxtaposed with the terms under discussion here. Let we must accept both of them as true to some degree.

I hear what you are saying share the sentiments yet remember that long list of curses listed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and alluded to elsewhere for rebelling against God. They are progressive, they get worse as Israel continues sinning in spite of them which creates a strange sort of perspective, they look very harsh but somehow aren't so bad that they can simply paralyze the nation by the shear horror of them, but they are horrific and they are recorded as happening. We know God, warns about being harsh, is capable of being harsh and since He doesn't change I fully expect He may well be harsh again. I, like many other humans, struggle with the justice in this in many cases. The world has many harsh and unpleasant people in it, and I can't really not see it as perfectly just that they may receive harsh and unpleasant punishments but it also many weaker and gentler humans and the idea that they may receive the same, a given in traditional understandings of God's judgement - all heathens are as bad as each other and deserve the same punishment - is an idea I balk at. It doesn't even seem supported by the text of the Bible. Jesus says 'the measure you give is the measure you shall receive'. This one size fits all judgement really doesn't seem to fit anyone and leaves the concept of forgiveness and reconciliation rather struggling for its place I feel.

[rosered]

 


  I can only hope to   to clarify   your  thoughts CST  as  we are all sharing our own understanding   on them , to help  , not hinder you  ...

I sure do not mean to cause even more confusion, this is one of the very  reasons I bowed out of these conversations   with you .

  Praying for  Gods grace   on these things  and waiting on the Lord to give life to your spiritual / inner  man  for you ..

We all have two natures  ,  the first one is born  under all these natural elements   we all deal with  on a daily basis and death is a big part of the natural realm of things we  all contend with   and  death has many meanings  besides the literal  one  in my own opinion and many here also  can agree .

  The carnal man or natural man and    I do believe   with all my heart   many of the things spoken  in the WORD OF GOD are  to instill a fear of the Lord in them   and do apply   to the natural man because Gods judgments are in the earth , that being the natural   realm of things , many scriptures  profess this very  concept .

  I use this reasoning by  Jesus  own words saying man shall not live by bread alone , but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God ..
the bread alone  or  the red letters of Christ   speaking as Life giving  to the spiritual man  growing in truth and grace within you   by the Love  of God towards you  ...

But the carnal man reads the Bible too  and we can see that  in this   Gods wrath is for a moment  [70 years more or less] , but His mercy endures forever ..

So in this,  I can see that   our carnal man is only here for a moment  and sees death  and many sorrows  and troubles in  Adam   , but the spiritual man sees Life  and  lives forever  .





14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. 


[ the seed/offspring   between the two  natures of one being carnal and the other being  spiritual   are  enemies to each other  ,  the spiritual one bruises the   head of the   carnal one , as the carnal one  bruises its heel , these blows are  painful to both   and corrective  , but the spiritual  offspring has the upper hand   as to keeping this wisdom in a low place   as we Know Gods ways are higher  Wisdom  and in control   or ruling over the body ]




For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


[ When the new birth happens to us  , as Paul said they are  still under the carnal nature ruling  their bodies   as babes   and unable to walk in the spirit  yet , little ones  and can see  because of the bruising     and have yet to bruise the head of the serpent ,overcoming the world and all its pomp   and foolishness,   this  carnal nature   that has been in control over the body of death  as to holding them down in death  , under the law of sin and death ,,
sin is  being in error  or letting the carnal nature rule  and not     strong  and exercising  faith and hope and love  [Gifts of the Holy Spirit ] Gods grace  in the Spiritual one  yet  and  God   giving  the grace and truth to the increase  of Spiritual growth ...


15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment....

   Judging and being judged   determines    our own spiritual growth   in this  sense as you judge so shall you be judged ,   To me this can be a  blessing[enter  Gods kingdom ]spiritual growth , a new creature in Christ  or a curse [outside still ]  as   carnal[man of sin nature ]  till we learn  Gods righteousness is in the earth as God has poured out His Spirit on all flesh  bodies

Isa 26 With my soul I desired Thee in the night, Also, with my spirit within me I seek Thee earnestly, For when Thy judgments are on the earth, The inhabitants of the world have learned righteousness

The beast is an image , this helps us to see it is not literal   , but an image of all these kingdoms    that man has built   from all the ages  throughout history and recorded for our  benefit as to seeing the results     of rebellion  and doing things with their own  earthly and sensual and devilish wisdom    against the Wisdom of God   and  only     a short time does it seem to prosper till it all falls down  to  dust and rubble  and scattered to the  4 winds , it only prospered by   God being patient with the and see if they could realize  , wake up  and change their minds , repent
  God always sends a  warning   though His messengers  ,    but so many destroyed the messengers       and than the end come upon them

God sent His Son this last time here  for us all  , if we  refuse  Him  what  end will that be ?  the scriptures speaks of these things    .

As far as hell  is concerned   John is right it is   best to start  clean  slate   with it    , start over .....    repent   change your mind  about what you  think   hell is ..

For me only , as many do not share in  this  understanding , but for me this  natural realm  is the hell [fire of many trials and courts  and death /body of death our piece and the world as a whole  [corruption]  all the spiritual children are planted in  and will rise up out of it   in Gods Wisdom   by though and In Christ [  Lord of the dead and the living ] 

I do not think  when the  natural body is  taken out of the way [clay vessel   flesh counts for nothing ]    and the Spirit and soul remains   in tact  and living  still  is  to be judged  what was done in the body ,,,     if it was the soul /life / being  of man of sin  and error   that ruled over the  body or the   Spirit of God and  the Soul/mind / Life  of Christ

This dividing between the  two  by the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT which is GOD'S WORD    will  and does judge us  all ,
  I do not  believe many  understand  the impact of     JESUS CHRIST HOLDING  EVERYTHING IN HIMSELF   ,and everything is subject to HIM ONLY , The concept is highly over looked  and not fully understood     stumbling over  Paul's revelations of Jesus Christ     terribly

JESUS CHRIST TESTIMONY   HOLDS THE KEYS of understanding   and  of Hell and death   HE HOLDS CAPTIVE     IN HIMSELF /WORD OF GOD   , most  cannot grasp the fact   death could not ever  hold Him , but HE HOLDS it  now  totally   and completely  within Himself  in  all creation  the old was  and is and will be  as well as the new  will always be   [ Col 1]  1 Cor 15

TILL HE MAKES   EVERYTHING ALIVE  and presents it   to the Father SPIRIT OF    THE LIVING GOD to  BE ALL IN ALL ...

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

1 Corinthians 12:6
There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.
Eph 4
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 
The fire of GODS JEALOUSY  IS THE WORD IN POWER    .For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.


So all  this  will sound silly to the  earthly minded man  [death holds them captive still]    , it always has  and always will  , because they  do not understand the    LIVING  WORD   nor tasted its power in them yet ...   I was one of those but by the grace of God  HE LIVES IN US ALL    and that hope is you may know Him   in this very way   and in this very   day  and hour .

[CST]

  I can only hope to   to clarify   your  thoughts CST  as  we are all sharing our own understanding   on them , to help  , not hinder you  ...

I sure do not mean to cause even more confusion, this is one of the very  reasons I bowed out of these conversations   with you .

  Praying for  Gods grace   on these things  and waiting on the Lord to give life to your spiritual / inner  man  for you ..

We all have two natures  ,  the first one is born  under all these natural elements   we all deal with  on a daily basis and death is a big part of the natural realm of things we  all contend with   and  death has many meanings  besides the literal  one  in my own opinion and many here also  can agree .

  The carnal man or natural man and    I do believe   with all my heart   many of the things spoken  in the WORD OF GOD are  to instill a fear of the Lord in them   and do apply   to the natural man because Gods judgments are in the earth , that being the natural   realm of things , many scriptures  profess this very  concept .

  I use this reasoning by  Jesus  own words saying man shall not live by bread alone , but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God ..
the bread alone  or  the red letters of Christ   speaking as Life giving  to the spiritual man  growing in truth and grace within you   by the Love  of God towards you  ...

But the carnal man reads the Bible too  and we can see that  in this   Gods wrath is for a moment  [70 years more or less] , but His mercy endures forever ..

So in this,  I can see that   our carnal man is only here for a moment  and sees death  and many sorrows  and troubles in  Adam   , but the spiritual man sees Life  and  lives forever  .





14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. 


[ the seed/offspring   between the two  natures of one being carnal and the other being  spiritual   are  enemies to each other  ,  the spiritual one bruises the   head of the   carnal one , as the carnal one  bruises its heel , these blows are  painful to both   and corrective  , but the spiritual  offspring has the upper hand   as to keeping this wisdom in a low place   as we Know Gods ways are higher  Wisdom  and in control   or ruling over the body ]




For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


[ When the new birth happens to us  , as Paul said they are  still under the carnal nature ruling  their bodies   as babes   and unable to walk in the spirit  yet , little ones  and can see  because of the bruising     and have yet to bruise the head of the serpent ,overcoming the world and all its pomp   and foolishness,   this  carnal nature   that has been in control over the body of death  as to holding them down in death  , under the law of sin and death ,,
sin is  being in error  or letting the carnal nature rule  and not     strong  and exercising  faith and hope and love  [Gifts of the Holy Spirit ] Gods grace  in the Spiritual one  yet  and  God   giving  the grace and truth to the increase  of Spiritual growth ...


15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment....

   Judging and being judged   determines    our own spiritual growth   in this  sense as you judge so shall you be judged ,   To me this can be a  blessing[enter  Gods kingdom ]spiritual growth , a new creature in Christ  or a curse [outside still ]  as   carnal[man of sin nature ]  till we learn  Gods righteousness is in the earth as God has poured out His Spirit on all flesh  bodies

Isa 26 With my soul I desired Thee in the night, Also, with my spirit within me I seek Thee earnestly, For when Thy judgments are on the earth, The inhabitants of the world have learned righteousness

The beast is an image , this helps us to see it is not literal   , but an image of all these kingdoms    that man has built   from all the ages  throughout history and recorded for our  benefit as to seeing the results     of rebellion  and doing things with their own  earthly and sensual and devilish wisdom    against the Wisdom of God   and  only     a short time does it seem to prosper till it all falls down  to  dust and rubble  and scattered to the  4 winds , it only prospered by   God being patient with the and see if they could realize  , wake up  and change their minds , repent
  God always sends a  warning   though His messengers  ,    but so many destroyed the messengers       and than the end come upon them

God sent His Son this last time here  for us all  , if we  refuse  Him  what  end will that be ?  the scriptures speaks of these things    .

As far as hell  is concerned   John is right it is   best to start  clean  slate   with it    , start over .....    repent   change your mind  about what you  think   hell is ..

For me only , as many do not share in  this  understanding , but for me this  natural realm  is the hell [fire of many trials and courts  and death /body of death our piece and the world as a whole  [corruption]  all the spiritual children are planted in  and will rise up out of it   in Gods Wisdom   by though and In Christ [  Lord of the dead and the living ] 

I do not think  when the  natural body is  taken out of the way [clay vessel   flesh counts for nothing ]    and the Spirit and soul remains   in tact  and living  still  is  to be judged  what was done in the body ,,,     if it was the soul /life / being  of man of sin  and error   that ruled over the  body or the   Spirit of God and  the Soul/mind / Life  of Christ

This dividing between the  two  by the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT which is GOD'S WORD    will  and does judge us  all ,
  I do not  believe many  understand  the impact of     JESUS CHRIST HOLDING  EVERYTHING IN HIMSELF   ,and everything is subject to HIM ONLY , The concept is highly over looked  and not fully understood     stumbling over  Paul's revelations of Jesus Christ     terribly

JESUS CHRIST TESTIMONY   HOLDS THE KEYS of understanding   and  of Hell and death   HE HOLDS CAPTIVE     IN HIMSELF /WORD OF GOD   , most  cannot grasp the fact   death could not ever  hold Him , but HE HOLDS it  now  totally   and completely  within Himself  in  all creation  the old was  and is and will be  as well as the new  will always be   [ Col 1]  1 Cor 15

TILL HE MAKES   EVERYTHING ALIVE  and presents it   to the Father SPIRIT OF    THE LIVING GOD to  BE ALL IN ALL ...

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

1 Corinthians 12:6
There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.
Eph 4
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 
The fire of GODS JEALOUSY  IS THE WORD IN POWER    .For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.


So all  this  will sound silly to the  earthly minded man  [death holds them captive still]    , it always has  and always will  , because they  do not understand the    LIVING  WORD   nor tasted its power in them yet ...   I was one of those but by the grace of God  HE LIVES IN US ALL    and that hope is you may know Him   in this very way   and in this very   day  and hour .

So is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

I'm going stop talking about this stuff now and try to keep it for the topic I'm thinking of doing about it.

[marie glen]

...all heathens are as bad as each other and deserve the same punishment - is an idea I balk at. It doesn't even seem supported by the text of the Bible. Jesus says 'the measure you give is the measure you shall receive'. This one side fits all judgement really doesn't seem to fit

Me too! I have to think there will be different degrees of weeping, gnashing of teeth and correction. ("The fire of God's jealousy and correction" - a great phrase courtesy of our sister Rose :gsmile: :thumbsup: )

"many stripes.. few stripes.."

And I think of most judgment as consequences our wise heavenly Parent allows to come upon us (how else to prove His point?).. both individual and collective/upon nations..

Obadiah 15 -
"For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near;
As you have done, it shall be done to you;
Your reprisal shall return upon your own head."

[rosered]

So is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

I'm going stop talking about this stuff now and try to keep it for the topic I'm thinking of doing about it.

  Think of it like this , if you don't mind considering it ..
  Abraham   considered his body already dead , but it was by faith   that God has supplied  and Abraham used it and become a friend of God  , not an enemy anylonger ...
  What good is it to have the gifts of   GOD [Holy Spirit ] and never use them  , but bury them in your earth/body  ?

   Luke 19   Every man is given a measure of faith  , it is what you do with it   that counts   for nothing or everything ...

  the poor in this world  but rich in faith , or rich in the world    but poor in spirit ? 

  What will a man exchange for his  soul/life ?     what good is it to have   the world and loose your own soul  to vanity and futility ?

Now is the time to repent and change our minds and hearts towards God


Take Up Your Cross  ..
...25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


26What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

27For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done....


Listen, my beloved brothers: Has not God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He promised to those loving Him?

I see the  exchange as  being spiritual for the carnal life in the world   this is in the here and now    to me ...

  I see you are going to make another  topic   CST ..

  God bless     

[marie glen]

So is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

In my way of thinking, I think of it mostly as learning by experience.. All are experiencing life as we presently know it (imperfect, opposite of God/Perfection/Life).. A matter of thinking and rationality.. logic. That aLL will know that we know, that we know.. that God iS Life itself, and to wander from Him in any teeny tiny way can only ever result in crashing and burning (metaphorically and/or literally) - what is popularly called "apocalypse", which when it occurs is an unveiling - of true from not true, of life from nonlife, good from evil - all interchangeable descriptions of this foundation lesson aLL are, imo, learning, and is being deeeply engraved upon every heart and mind/psyche.. For (surely?) He is not creating robots or an ant farm.. but an un-breakable paradise, perfection - having reaLLy driven home the message to one and all (in earth and heaven) during what is popularly called judgment 'day'. :Peace2: just my :2c:

..and through this process, the imperfect and flawed (carnal) person dies, is crucified with Christ, and we are born again/anew.. and continue to make progress via His Spirit and the washing of the word.. the Spirit and the Word, the daily bread and (new) wine.. the formula(?) to be a branch abiding on the vine.. in that the bread and wine sustenance produces fruit abundant, for He is the vine.

[eaglesway]

God created man innocent, and therefore unaware of certain dynamics of love, like sacrifice for instance. Forgiveness would be another example.

God, imo, wanted a closer relationship with His creation from before the beginning.. to share Himself because He is generous and joyous, to know us and have sweet intimate fellowship because He loves us.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Ro 8

To me this one verse spans the whole plan of God, and His purpose- all creation as His friends... we were subject to futility, so we could be birthed into harmony and communion in the light.

"No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down His life for His friends"

We call friends those who like us, or we like, but there is a friend who is closer than a brother, with whom you can share anything in life, the deepest things.

So Jesus is the example of the greatest aspect of love, and the result is freindship of the deepest kind possible, union and communion in the harmony, beauty and joy of love.

"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor 4

Light shining out of darkness, Glorious liberty birthed out of futility(chaos).

"In the beginning the earth was without form and void, and the Spirit hovered over the waters"

IMO this is both literal (of primordial creation) and metaphorical(of how God works through chaos, btinging light out of darkness.

We could not know Him, really, without understanding the glory of His love(Christ crucified)- and the power of it.(Christ raised.

We could not know it unless we became of a condition where we could see, personally as individuals and corporately (as the family of creation), what He is measured by what He is not, so...

We passed from innocence to futility and were bound in mortality

"Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.... (Gen 3)

"We know the whole creation travails in childbirth even until now"- macro view

"My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you—" (Gal 4:19)- micro view

The micro view is not lesser, it is the story of the individual building blocks of the new creation- lving stones in a tabernacle for the Spirit of God, that will eventually enfold all creation.

"So we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness(2 Peter 3)

He destroys hate by contrasting it with love. He destroys the natural man by planting the spiritual man in a soul, a soul full of futility, and bringing that light up out of the darkness(darkness was upon the face of the deep, light will shine out of darkness)

It is often painful, as the natural man breaks down and the spirtual man lives ever more in the image of Christ, laying down his life for his friends, instead of taking it up.... forgiving as Christ forgave, untill all have seen that light and been translatred out of the kingdom of darkness ibto the kingdom of His glorious light.

Its a process never over in this life- and the reward is knowing Him, and loving one another, and loving all.

[darryl]

 :iagree: :dsunny:

[CST]

...all heathens are as bad as each other and deserve the same punishment - is an idea I balk at. It doesn't even seem supported by the text of the Bible. Jesus says 'the measure you give is the measure you shall receive'. This one side fits all judgement really doesn't seem to fit

Me too! I have to think there will be different degrees of weeping, gnashing of teeth and correction. ("The fire of God's jealousy and correction" - a great phrase courtesy of our sister Rose :gsmile: :thumbsup: )

"many stripes.. few stripes.."

And I think of most judgment as consequences our wise heavenly Parent allows to come upon us (how else to prove His point?).. both individual and collective/upon nations..

Obadiah 15 -
"For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near;
As you have done, it shall be done to you;
Your reprisal shall return upon your own head."

Certainly the Bible puts a limit on the number of stripes a person is to receive which those of the ET party tend to forget.

And also Prodigal Son seems to imply that position on judgment at least in some cases. I hope to write more on that in the other post if I ever get round to writing it.

So is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

I'm going stop talking about this stuff now and try to keep it for the topic I'm thinking of doing about it.

  Think of it like this , if you don't mind considering it ..
  Abraham   considered his body already dead , but it was by faith   that God has supplied  and Abraham used it and become a friend of God  , not an enemy anylonger ...
  What good is it to have the gifts of   GOD [Holy Spirit ] and never use them  , but bury them in your earth/body  ?

   Luke 19   Every man is given a measure of faith  , it is what you do with it   that counts   for nothing or everything ...

  the poor in this world  but rich in faith , or rich in the world    but poor in spirit ? 

  What will a man exchange for his  soul/life ?     what good is it to have   the world and loose your own soul  to vanity and futility ?

Now is the time to repent and change our minds and hearts towards God


Take Up Your Cross  ..
...25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


26What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

27For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done....


Listen, my beloved brothers: Has not God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He promised to those loving Him?

I see the  exchange as  being spiritual for the carnal life in the world   this is in the here and now    to me ...

  I see you are going to make another  topic   CST ..

  God bless     

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead? Without context I don't know what you're trying to say.

Actually I'm struggling to follow a lot of your quotes and references 'every man is given a measure of faith' where does it says that and how? We know not every man is given any measure of grace which makes faith effective. Not in this lifetime that's why it's grace.

I've always been bothered by the references to our cross by Jesus, we're not Him don't have His stamina and if you don't live in the sort of country your likely to be persecuted in you may have to actively go looking for trouble to follow this one. I thought I'd understood it once but I forgot my understanding since. It's also not the best line for the service of UR. ET apologists like it because they can say it suggest a lifetime of suffering in this world is better than endless lifetimes of the same in the next. I object to it on the ground that it instantaneously kills any reason to be thankful to God. He made us our lives to suffer for our lives, thanks for that(!)

The references to losing the soul are also much better for the ET and ED lot than they are for us. There's no suggestion in the text of getting the soul back again in the references.

The last one is very pertinent though, that goes directly to the point of the other topic I hope to write 'each man according to what he has done' is a very fair term, the way Hell and the judgment tends to be described does not sound as fair.

Though I'm not sure any of that really answers my original question.

So is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

In my way of thinking, I think of it mostly as learning by experience.. All are experiencing life as we presently know it (imperfect, opposite of God/Perfection/Life).. A matter of thinking and rationality.. logic. That aLL will know that we know, that we know.. that God iS Life itself, and to wander from Him in any teeny tiny way can only ever result in crashing and burning (metaphorically and/or literally) - what is popularly called "apocalypse", which when it occurs is an unveiling - of true from not true, of life from nonlife, good from evil - all interchangeable descriptions of this foundation lesson aLL are, imo, learning, and is being deeeply engraved upon every heart and mind/psyche.. For (surely?) He is not creating robots or an ant farm.. but an un-breakable paradise, perfection - having reaLLy driven home the message to one and all (in earth and heaven) during what is popularly called judgment 'day'. :Peace2: just my :2c:

..and through this process, the imperfect and flawed (carnal) person dies, is crucified with Christ, and we are born again/anew.. and continue to make progress via His Spirit and the washing of the word.. the Spirit and the Word, the daily bread and (new) wine.. the formula(?) to be a branch abiding on the vine.. in that the bread and wine sustenance produces fruit abundant, for He is the vine.

'In the beginning God created the heaven(s) and the earth.' The famous opening line of the Bible which contain so much detail in such a short phrase the implication is often lost to modern readers.

In Genesis there are, if I've remembered correctly, three great judgements of God. The first is the great flood, as told man has polluted the Earth upon which he walks as from which he is made as so God cause all the water of the Heaven(s) to fall to the ground and symbolically wash everything away. The whole population is drowned sparing only Noah and his immediate family.

From Noah's family a series of new humans spring up and again populate the land this leads to the second great judgement, the one that is often overlooked because it can seem less dramatic, has no principle characters and last about one chapter.

Genesis 11 records how after several generations have passed man gets together at a plain called Shinar and propose to build a city. The pinnacle of this city will be an enormous tower which reaches to the high heavens, implicitly to where the gods are, and they set to work on this obviously impossible feet. Until God is recorded as seeing what they are doing and stopping them by giving them different languages so they can't understand each other and so must abandon the tower. The text doesn't explain exactly what God objected to in this enterprise of human co-operation but there's a suspicion that it has to do with the fact that what they are effectively trying to do is build the world's biggest monument to materialistic idolatry. There are no gods 'up there' they don't mention God or gods when conceiving the project as recorded (though again the implication remains) but they plough on trying to build a tower they obviously can't finish. If they could get any significant distance without it falling down they'd find the air was too thin for them to continue and they'd never find any divine beings because they're not there even while we continue - by tradition and Biblical symbolism - to think of the afterlife as heaven and as 'up there'.

We talk so much about how 'Hell' is a false, misleading term that can only make people imagine spurious horrors we tend not to think that maybe 'Heaven' is too. God created heaven, the Bible says so. He doesn't live there He lives everywhere. Heaven is a much a part of the 'imperfect' created order as the earth is, though it may be understood to be less affected my the fall because man isn't considered the 'head' of heaven.

God is a perfect being but everything He creates is a new thing and does not entirely share that perfection. The Earth is imperfect and is the Heaven. The New Heaven and New Earth will be the same as I see it the major difference will be that the don't tend towards decay because death is not found in them. Sin is what is vanquished and expelled from the new world and sin produces death. It does not produce, as I see it, all the imperfections in the world.

So when you say the carnal man is crucified with Christ is he, raised with Christ, which Paul said that was a natural following of being crucified with Christ or does he, upon raising, turn into the spiritual man. Carnal is such a shorthand for sinful this is really confusing but I don't like this mortal schizophrenia and can only see three interpretation of it: 1. the carnal man is annihilated, so ED is true which all the problems thereof, 2. the carnal man is sent to Gehenna, so ET is true with all the problems thereof, 3. the carnal man is raised with Jesus and stops being 'carnal' and goes to New Jerusalem to live forever. Since the carnal man is no longer carnal it still seems to have been, to all intents and purposes, annihilated (see 1). In all cases the spiritual man goes to the New Jerusalem.

So much for forgiveness and reconciliation.

[rosered]

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead? Without context I don't know what you're trying to say.

Actually I'm struggling to follow a lot of your quotes and references 'every man is given a measure of faith' where does it says that and how? We know not every man is given any measure of grace which makes faith effective. Not in this lifetime that's why it's grace.

I've always been bothered by the references to our cross by Jesus, we're not Him don't have His stamina and if you don't live in the sort of country your likely to be persecuted in you may have to actively go looking for trouble to follow this one. I thought I'd understood it once but I forgot my understanding since. It's also not the best line for the service of UR. ET apologists like it because they can say it suggest a lifetime of suffering in this world is better than endless lifetimes of the same in the next. I object to it on the ground that it instantaneously kills any reason to be thankful to God. He made us our lives to suffer for our lives, thanks for that(!)

The references to losing the soul are also much better for the ET and ED lot than they are for us. There's no suggestion in the text of getting the soul back again in the references.

The last one is very pertinent though, that goes directly to the point of the other topic I hope to write 'each man according to what he has done' is a very fair term, the way Hell and the judgment tends to be described does not sound as fair.

Though I'm not sure any of that really answers my original question.

   You   should actually look for yourself Chris  , to  test and prove       if anyone  is lying to you ...

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead?  Romans 4:19

(Romans 12:3)'every man is given a measure of faith


As  to sowing seeds of faith , and hoping   to help    anyone at any time    whom can hear what the Spirit  is saying in anyone of us  ,  and move anyone at any time    to change their  minds , but  must  really  want to believe    and be healed  in my opinion .

  Help  me to understand why   so many     are so doubtful ?
  I see this as  still trying to understand God with  carnal mind and   with it no one can  understand   in the death  mindset .



For me the Law of God    has not risen in their hearts yet ...to be carnally mined is death and the dead know nothing about the ways of God


  Romans 8 Living in the Spirit

...5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh;

but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.


6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:

It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....

[CST]

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead? Without context I don't know what you're trying to say.

Actually I'm struggling to follow a lot of your quotes and references 'every man is given a measure of faith' where does it says that and how? We know not every man is given any measure of grace which makes faith effective. Not in this lifetime that's why it's grace.

I've always been bothered by the references to our cross by Jesus, we're not Him don't have His stamina and if you don't live in the sort of country your likely to be persecuted in you may have to actively go looking for trouble to follow this one. I thought I'd understood it once but I forgot my understanding since. It's also not the best line for the service of UR. ET apologists like it because they can say it suggest a lifetime of suffering in this world is better than endless lifetimes of the same in the next. I object to it on the ground that it instantaneously kills any reason to be thankful to God. He made us our lives to suffer for our lives, thanks for that(!)

The references to losing the soul are also much better for the ET and ED lot than they are for us. There's no suggestion in the text of getting the soul back again in the references.

The last one is very pertinent though, that goes directly to the point of the other topic I hope to write 'each man according to what he has done' is a very fair term, the way Hell and the judgment tends to be described does not sound as fair.

Though I'm not sure any of that really answers my original question.

   You   should actually look for yourself Chris  , to  test and prove       if anyone  is lying to you ...

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead?  Romans 4:19

(Romans 12:3)'every man is given a measure of faith


As  to sowing seeds of faith , and hoping   to help    anyone at any time    whom can hear what the Spirit  is saying in anyone of us  ,  and move anyone at any time    to change their  minds , but  must  really  want to believe    and be healed  in my opinion .

  Help  me to understand why   so many     are so doubtful ?
  I see this as  still trying to understand God with  carnal mind and   with it no one can  understand   in the death  mindset .



For me the Law of God    has not risen in their hearts yet ...to be carnally mined is death and the dead know nothing about the ways of God


  Romans 8 Living in the Spirit

...5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh;

but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.


6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:

It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....

Why would I imagine you're lying to me?

'And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.'

Punctuation is a pretty important thing. Paul is not saying Abraham considered his body dead in the sense you are suggesting. The point is to all intents and purposes Abraham's body was supposedly past the point it could be expected to produce children and so was Sarah. Paul is simply saying Abraham, being faithful, took no heed of this small obstacle and believed God when Isaac was promised.

So you're not lying, but I think you may have misunderstood the application.

'For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.'

Again, here the phrase 'to everyone who is among you' would seem to limit the phrase 'each one'.

The 'mind of the flesh' here is, it seems entirely about desire and appetite. The mind of the flesh just wants to gorge and gorge and gorge. It's not very constructive, eat too much, drink too much, fornicate too much, we all know if we think about it we were made for more than that. It's just the carnal man never thinks about it.

That's how I understand the passage anyway.

[CST]

God created man innocent, and therefore unaware of certain dynamics of love, like sacrifice for instance. Forgiveness would be another example.

God, imo, wanted a closer relationship with His creation from before the beginning.. to share Himself because He is generous and joyous, to know us and have sweet intimate fellowship because He loves us.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Ro 8

To me this one verse spans the whole plan of God, and His purpose- all creation as His friends... we were subject to futility, so we could be birthed into harmony and communion in the light.

"No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down His life for His friends"

We call friends those who like us, or we like, but there is a friend who is closer than a brother, with whom you can share anything in life, the deepest things.

So Jesus is the example of the greatest aspect of love, and the result is freindship of the deepest kind possible, union and communion in the harmony, beauty and joy of love.

"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor 4

Light shining out of darkness, Glorious liberty birthed out of futility(chaos).

"In the beginning the earth was without form and void, and the Spirit hovered over the waters"

IMO this is both literal (of primordial creation) and metaphorical(of how God works through chaos, btinging light out of darkness.

We could not know Him, really, without understanding the glory of His love(Christ crucified)- and the power of it.(Christ raised.

We could not know it unless we became of a condition where we could see, personally as individuals and corporately (as the family of creation), what He is measured by what He is not, so...

We passed from innocence to futility and were bound in mortality

"Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.... (Gen 3)

"We know the whole creation travails in childbirth even until now"- macro view

"My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you—" (Gal 4:19)- micro view

The micro view is not lesser, it is the story of the individual building blocks of the new creation- lving stones in a tabernacle for the Spirit of God, that will eventually enfold all creation.

"So we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness(2 Peter 3)

He destroys hate by contrasting it with love. He destroys the natural man by planting the spiritual man in a soul, a soul full of futility, and bringing that light up out of the darkness(darkness was upon the face of the deep, light will shine out of darkness)

It is often painful, as the natural man breaks down and the spirtual man lives ever more in the image of Christ, laying down his life for his friends, instead of taking it up.... forgiving as Christ forgave, untill all have seen that light and been translatred out of the kingdom of darkness ibto the kingdom of His glorious light.

Its a process never over in this life- and the reward is knowing Him, and loving one another, and loving all.

I'm a bit confused by this. It beautiful in many ways, the original material more so than the scripture quotes in this case. I think that's not really so but the scripture is more involved.

But it seems to start on a strange premise: that because God made man innocent he has no knowledge of x, y, z. Now this seems to me to be a poor understanding of innocence. God is innocent as has all that knowledge so having that knowledge does not inherently oppose innocence they're not mutually exclusive.

I think I understand the main think though, but I could be projecting, God did make man in such a way that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil became attractive to him and had no power or knowledge he could find in himself to understand that he should not eat it, just the instruction which he chose to ignore.

Which may be the point, man wasn't innocent, he was guiltless but he wasn't innocent. This was because until he was put in the position of deciding whether or not to eat from the tree his 'innocence' had no value. Until he was tempted it had never been tested so in some senses innocence actually belongs in the other category, it only means something in a world where people are often guilty of all sorts.

But the main message of your post is perfectly sound and the Bible reduces it to three words: God - is -Love.

I retain bothered by the complete destruction of the natural man, as I alluded to above final destruction seems to conflict with forgiveness and reconciliation. God doesn't seem to need to be reconciled with the spiritual man because he already looks to God, it's the carnal man that is opposed and needs reconciling. I hold forgiveness as so important in my model of salvation I hope to talk more about it on my other topic if I write it but I'll mention one story here.

I saw on a TV discussion show once, a discussion about forgiveness, a woman who's son had been murdered, very sad story. She said she was not prepared to forgive her son's murder and would not do so even if it was required of her to get into Heaven.

And, as sympathetic as I was trying to be, I couldn't help thinking, what, really? Your dead son who you miss haven't been cruelly taken from you is now in Heaven waiting for you and all you have to do is forgive his killer but you won't? You really doing that? Now who's keeping you from your son?

Forgiveness and reconciliation matter, destruction gets in the way... all her stubbornness may have to go in this case but I feel that could be achieved simply by overcoming it with sense. Just a thought.

[rosered]

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead? Without context I don't know what you're trying to say.

Actually I'm struggling to follow a lot of your quotes and references 'every man is given a measure of faith' where does it says that and how? We know not every man is given any measure of grace which makes faith effective. Not in this lifetime that's why it's grace.

I've always been bothered by the references to our cross by Jesus, we're not Him don't have His stamina and if you don't live in the sort of country your likely to be persecuted in you may have to actively go looking for trouble to follow this one. I thought I'd understood it once but I forgot my understanding since. It's also not the best line for the service of UR. ET apologists like it because they can say it suggest a lifetime of suffering in this world is better than endless lifetimes of the same in the next. I object to it on the ground that it instantaneously kills any reason to be thankful to God. He made us our lives to suffer for our lives, thanks for that(!)

The references to losing the soul are also much better for the ET and ED lot than they are for us. There's no suggestion in the text of getting the soul back again in the references.

The last one is very pertinent though, that goes directly to the point of the other topic I hope to write 'each man according to what he has done' is a very fair term, the way Hell and the judgment tends to be described does not sound as fair.

Though I'm not sure any of that really answers my original question.

   You   should actually look for yourself Chris  , to  test and prove       if anyone  is lying to you ...

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead?  Romans 4:19

(Romans 12:3)'every man is given a measure of faith


As  to sowing seeds of faith , and hoping   to help    anyone at any time    whom can hear what the Spirit  is saying in anyone of us  ,  and move anyone at any time    to change their  minds , but  must  really  want to believe    and be healed  in my opinion .

  Help  me to understand why   so many     are so doubtful ?
  I see this as  still trying to understand God with  carnal mind and   with it no one can  understand   in the death  mindset .



For me the Law of God    has not risen in their hearts yet ...to be carnally mined is death and the dead know nothing about the ways of God


  Romans 8 Living in the Spirit

...5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh;

but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.


6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:

It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....

Why would I imagine you're lying to me?

'And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.'

Punctuation is a pretty important thing. Paul is not saying Abraham considered his body dead in the sense you are suggesting. The point is to all intents and purposes Abraham's body was supposedly past the point it could be expected to produce children and so was Sarah. Paul is simply saying Abraham, being faithful, took no heed of this small obstacle and believed God when Isaac was promised.

So you're not lying, but I think you may have misunderstood the application.

'For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.'

Again, here the phrase 'to everyone who is among you' would seem to limit the phrase 'each one'.

The 'mind of the flesh' here is, it seems entirely about desire and appetite. The mind of the flesh just wants to gorge and gorge and gorge. It's not very constructive, eat too much, drink too much, fornicate too much, we all know if we think about it we were made for more than that. It's just the carnal man never thinks about it.

That's how I understand the passage anyway.

I do see how you are  able to come to these conclusions Chris  ..  I can also see them as the same  understanding .  But you can also see them   by faith in a more Living way   ..

  I do understand one thing   helpful Christ and it is applied to those whom can  hear the Spirit  speaking    to them in that moment   and  being the Word of Life   , quickens  them spiritually  speaking   , and that is how  I am   trying to   interpret the  whole  Bible ....      and treat it as a  LIVING THING  in power ,    with the Breath of Life in it   , being able to revive us all     from the  deadly realm of thoughts and speech and   natural application   of bible verses .

   John 6


62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?


63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing.


The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.


64However, there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)...


Many turned away   ,   when he  said  '' Eat my body and drink my Blood that you  might have Life in you .''....    This is a hard saying for the natural man to understand    it is mostly    ignored and not  given to reason  , because it makes no earthly sense   as to what it is its  true meaning .

  The Sword  / Word of God judges us all   as  a living thing within us    , if it is dead letters  it  will not rise  up in   power and Life     within you ...   two witnesses   the Sword of the Spirit and the Word of the Spirit are one  and the same and yet these two  done everything   in everyone whom had this  anointing of Christ working in them  by the Father    in the WORD it must be a LIVING thing in order   to move us ...     the dead know nothing , because the dead   are still in their graves and are awaiting the Christ to rise up  within them    still

  The outward appearance    of things seems the total opposite  and many  fall and stumble over this SWORD / WORD OF GOD    seeing it as  confusing and contradictory      and never see Jesus coming in the clouds of Glory ...


I know only God can give us these things     no man can , it is always in Gods hands and power   to give Life from the dead ....   

  God bless  and keep you 

  That is  all we can do is speak the truth , none can   do anything against the truth,   but for the Truth     ...

[eaglesway]

The cross is something that we need the Spirit of God to enable us to understand and carry. For instance, Jesus also said,

"Take my yoke upon you and learn of me for my yoke is easy and my burden is light for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls..."

So  if the cross is hard how is His yoke easy? Because He is in it with us!

If we get the cart before the horse we end up defeated and overwhelmed. "Christ in you the hope of glory" is the secret of the gospel(Colossians 1:27)

Also Jesus was speaking of discipleship. In order to become a disciple one must emulate the person they are being discipled by. Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this- to lay down his life for his friend"

So when Jesus says, "If you would be my disciple you must say no to your "self" pick up your cross daily, and come- follow me"

He speaks of laying down our lives in love for those we serve, as He served.

That is the message of disciples..... "Come follow me..."

It is not about asceticism, and persecution in this country is more intense than a lot of people think- it is just different in form. So....

We are called to walk in humilty and love. That is what the cross is about.

"I live yet not I, but Christ lives through me, and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God...."

The cross is where Jesus unites with me, and empowers me, when I say, essentially- "Ok Lord, I will follow...I will walk in love.... I will say no to my "self" and serve you."

That is the death disciples die in the yoke with Jesus, and they only get worn out when they are pulling in the wrong direction :o)

[rosered]

AMEN   JOHN ,   
  THE CROSS IS ALL ABOUT   ,  Jesus Christ defeating death in us !  He tasted death for every man , that we can   taste Life though Him    ..   :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

I think Adam and Eve, and I guess each one of us when born, are ignorant.. We just "don't know".. so in a sense, at that moment especially, innocent. You see, I get the sense, that because God Himself subjected all to "subjection" (is that the right word?) I think, absolutely, He has had the 'end' result in view from before the beginning, as EW said, and I agree too that He's creating a world and reality of friends. ..."How can two walk together except they agree.." I suppose this means see eye to eye on things'.

When I prayed about all these things and questions about life, I found myself pondering and wondering what it would be like to see things from the beginning, before any act of creation. I actually found myself thinking what would I do..? to create an unbreakable forever paradise perfection? How would it be able to be done?

The next thing was seeing that He surely(?) could see all possibilities stretched out before His sight like an ephemeral blanket stretched out all 360 degrees was how I imagined.

Then, logic would seem to say, or that is, it stands to reason He would do all things from that very point on - in all ways - in such a way as to bring about the best of all possibilities..

The next thing that occurred to me was when He decided/chose to endow thinking ability to angel and man that a whole new world ( or tree) of possibilies came about (because sooner or later, with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices) and He, only able to be honest, there was that tree in the original garden.. The thing is, to me, what are the other options He had?

[marie glen]

P.S- I forgot my point! Since God Himself did all this by making the choices He's made, and choosing when each one comes to the truth, He declares us innocent, not about to condemn or lose someone because of His doings and choices. :dontknow: ...seems logical to me.. another, to my mind, proof of UR and UR logic.. :gsmile:

[marie glen]

i even think He knows best and chooses best for each one of us, for every psyche. As to when we come to the truth.. (though I still think of election as being a 'lucky' throw of the heavenly dice, so I guess He also formed every psyche...?).

And I'm not sure, but it seems like it should be impossible for anyone to overestimate Him..

I have a sneaky suspicion that when all is said and done, we may find that the lowest depths the carnal psyche can go to, is in each and every one of us... given the 'right' circumstances, history, etc. That the proverbial bottomless pit is within every and any im-perfect (thinking) creature. That it was only He, who decided how far in each case to let it flow.. And that we'll find in the 'end' that truth has been proven at every avenue and angle. That this all (human history,etc) will be THE perfect - for all age unto ages - truth proving, to all, tapestry. Nailing everything into place. His blueprint fully fulfilled in every creature individual and collect.. The full danger (and horror) of imperfection being fully driven home.

After all? He can only be perfect, surely? Or He too would fade, wouldn't He? But of course that would be impossible.. that He would be imperfect. :smile:

We humans may want to believe He could have merely waved a magic wand and made all things perfect and not able to stray from perfection no way, no how in any quarter any where.. but wouldn't that then make His "friends" to be forever children? :dontknow: how could rationality be endowed without letting it run its course?

[eaglesway]

I wonder, not for the sake of disagreement, but rather for the sake of another view of God, who reveals Himself as I AM THAT I AM.

Personally, as a God of being, I think He is more like us(since we were created in His image) than like this great mentality, forseeing every possibility and forecasting each possible end from each possible act.

I think He wouldnt care to be bothered with all that, and while I do believe He knows the end from the beginning, Peter says we are predestined according to the foreknowledge of God, who, from His vantage point, perhaps saw everything in one instant- but then what fun would it be for Him?

Is God invested in the present at all? I think of course He is, and for this reason we pray for His involvement in our lives and world- not as if all is a forgone conclusion, yet some would have us to believe everything is already a foregone conclusion, and I find this nearly as soul-less as hellism.

There are things God has set in stone, so to speak. When we reach the end of our road every human will see that they were loved. The sign of the son of man appearing in the heavens is(imo) Christ crucified displayed before every conscious being of all time when, "the veil of the heavens is rent".... every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him"

"As Moses lifted up the serpent on a stick, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."

The sting of sin is death, and Christ crucified disarms sin AND death. He disarmed the principalities and powers making an open display of them(Col). We have a wisdom, the hidden wisdom of the mature, that the principalities and powers did not understand or they would not hav crucified Him(1 Cor 2)- Christ crucified, "I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ crucified". It is the center/seed of everything- especially the salvation of all.

Anyway, the friendship God has in mind is heart to heart, "lay down your life" kind of love, I think- something that transcends knowledge,

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways....1 Cor 13

Now we are children, with our knowledge and our incompleteness. The issue of that which is "incomplete" will be replaced by that which is complete when God is all in all, and that which is perfect is love, and there is no greater love than to lay down ones life for ones friends.

The closer we get to being in the all in all the more the desire to love transcends the desire to "know", and true maturity is deeper in love and that is the "true knowledge of God"- not whether He is a trinity or not, or whether He plans every little thing or not, because in the Moment, in the Twinkling of an eye, in the Now where He dwells in unapproachable light, all is permeated by love, and according to Paul this is the goal of our faith- love from a pure heart.

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Eph 3:14-19

Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Ask God to do more than we can ask or think ;o), I think ,would be to ask Him to so empower love in us that the salvation of all would become common knowledge- the gospel proclaimed unto every creature in heaven and earth.

[rosered]

:dsunny: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:MAY THE LIGHT SHINE IN THE  darkness , 1John 5 The Beginning!


...4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

  Overcome the darkness [evil   ]by the Light of His life/LOVE  working  forgiveness , healing and  wholeness  of the SPIRIT OF GOD  within  us all ............. :icon_flower: