Tentmaker Forum

I recently read a post on another forum where a believer could see God saving all mankind, but not Satan and demons. They must suffer forever or be annihilated. I understand the sentiment but I do not see that in the scriptures.  It does perhaps, (wondrously) "miss the mark" concerning  the original purpose of God in creation, because the key thing is that the creation was not subjected to futility of its own volition. That includes the entire creation, and I hope to demonstrate through the scriptures, that the whole creation must also be restored.

every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10

Unto what do they bow? When? Why?

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Rom 8:19-22

This is seen(imo) fulfilled in Rev 5

  And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!" Rev 5:13

This (again, imo)was the Creator's original plan and purpose, and the reason the Lamb was slain from the beginning of the world.


having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure(eudokia-kind intention) which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. Eph:9,10

The reason every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord is the revelation, breaking like the dawn, in every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth, of His love, reconciliation and transformation into the glorious liberty of the children of God- which is love, light and newness of life.

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. Rom 8:25-29

God is love. Jesus is Lord and the subjection He brings within His Lordship and Kingdom is to love. The conversion/transformation of the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God is a translation from this present evil age into the kingdom of His glorious light. It will eventually transform the whole creation.

As all have been adversaries- all will be converted, every knee shall bow. Else how could God be all in all? How could Jesus be Lord of all? Where there is anger, remorse, agony and hatred, How has every thought been taken captive to the glorious light? How has every tower and stronghold exalted against the true knowledge of God been torn down? His plan is greater than our reasonings, perceptions and sense of justice. Is it better to punish forever than to transform the adversary to friend? The fool to wisdom? The wicked to righteousness? The hater to love?[/color]

"His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms" Eph 3:10

In this age God is demonstrating His wisdom through the ecclesia- the callled out ones, the elect, the firstfruits, us.


Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. Rom 11:33-36

God never planned from the beginning for any creature to dwell in darkness forever, but rather to bring the whole creation through chaos/futility (in the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters and God said, "Let there be light") into being "friends of God", in union, communion and harmony.

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.


This gospel of Jesus and all the apostles has been procalimed to every creature under heaven.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven....." Col 1:15-20

We were all formerly adversaries. We were all reconciled as enemies. So Paul goes further here to show that this gospel of reconciliation is for every creature under heaven.


"....And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.  Col 1:21-23

This is consistent with the writings in all his epistles, and consistent with John, James and Peter......

Peter... "until the times of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the holy prophets from ancient times".  Acts 3:19

And it was the gospel of Peter from day one....

....But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2 Pet 3:13

James.... "You were begotten by the word of truth that you may be a kind of firstfruits of His creation"  James 1:17

Paul... "The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God

John...  And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.  1 John 2:2

For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,  that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever(all generations of the age of the ages). Amen. Eph 3:14-21

Paul's desire for us is that we be rooted and grounded in love..."filled up to all the fulness of God".

Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.(Col 1)

We are a kind of firstfruits of His creation.(James 1)

The whole creation is in pangs of childbirth even until now.(Romans 8)

Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.[/b]

Why is He exalted above ALL heavens? Why will every knee bow, whether in heaven or one earth or under the earth? Why is it that God's plan is a "kind intention" which He "purposed in Himself" to "gather all things into one in Christ Jesus"?(Eph 1) Why was it God's pleasure "to make all fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself whether things on earth or in heaven"?(Col 2)

Because He who descended to the lowest place is ascended to the highest place in order that He may fill all things so that God will become ALL IN ALL.

In ALL that He ever created.

Thank you, that is well said.  :declare:

 :thumbsup:

I see these objections as putting a limit on how much better God can be than Satan. As if saying that God is good, but surely not THAT good.

i was in church last sunday and fell down on my knees during the worship  before  the congregation..a young woman came up a few feet in front of me and fell on her knees too...we didnt care what anybody thought...overcome by the depth of Jesus love for me, for us, for ALL ... :dsunny:

Matthew 25:41..."Then he will say to those on his left, 'make your way  from me, you who are cursed, into the  fire aionion prepared for the devil and his angels'.
if the ' Lake of Fire' is 'the fire aionion' and we know the Lake of Fire is the 2nd Death, and Death will be abolished, humans go there and are ultimately reconciled with God...this verse strongly infers that demons and Satan will be reconciled also...because the Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his angels...the Lake of Fire is a place of chastisement and correction for God's creatures who need such correction, not endless torture in fire...and Satan and the demons are definitely 'creatures created by God'.

As I've mentioned before I don't believe in Satan, but for the purposes of this topic that doesn't really matter as I am very enamored with the idea of reconciling adversaries. Of course, I think of human adversaries first. We've met them, experienced them, been hurt by them that is where our forgiveness lies.

So, with that in mind, the Bible teaches that know man has ever seen God, but we can meet Him in Jesus. So I have a question, have any or all of us ever met the Devil or do we merely stumble over the obstacles he's put in our way. We know, of course, what the Bible says about adversaries:

'The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.' (Isaiah 11:6-9)

Oh, and it's refrain:

'"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the LORD."' (Isaiah 65:25)

So here's the question: are we required to forgive the Devil as we are required to forgive our human adversaries?

I would say.. when he asks for forgiveness.. Until then we are to "put on the full armor of God that we will be able to stand in the evil day(s)" ..("for our adversary seeks to devour")... "resist the devil and he will flee from you".. So I figure it's not forgiveness (yet) but resist and arm/armor ourselves against the wiles of the enemy/adversary.. Without that armor, I think we suffer - moods, etc, etc? that otherwise we would not have to.. (Was it Winston Churchill who said "know thy enemy"? :dontknow: )

In Ephesians 6 is the armor -
13 because of this take ye up the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to resist in the day of the evil, and all things having done -- to stand.
14 Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about in truth, and having put on the breastplate of the righteousness,
15 and having the feet shod in the preparation of the good-news of the peace;
16 above all, having taken up the shield of the faith, in which ye shall be able all the fiery darts of the evil one to quench,
17 and the helmet of the salvation receive, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the saying (word/s) of God,
18 through all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the Spirit, and in regard to this same, watching in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints --

But when Yahweh is "all in all", then, yes.. we will, I believe, forgive the adversary/opposer.

I'm not sure we're generally meant to wait for someone to ask for forgiveness before giving it, it seems God doesn't He just forgives.

That said it's easier to wait for someone to ask because it creates a degree of trust that you won't be 'wasting' your forgiveness. At the same time it's hard to see how you can forgive someone who is continuing in active sin on great proportion. That would be like "I forg-, oh, no. Never mind."

I believe it should possible to forgive any of your personal human enemies whenever you get respite from them, however brief. Not terribly easy though.

Quote from: CST on September 30, 2016, 01:58:34 PM
As I've mentioned before I don't believe in Satan, but for the purposes of this topic that doesn't really matter as I am very enamored with the idea of reconciling adversaries. Of course, I think of human adversaries first. We've met them, experienced them, been hurt by them that is where our forgiveness lies.

So, with that in mind, the Bible teaches that know man has ever seen God, but we can meet Him in Jesus. So I have a question, have any or all of us ever met the Devil or do we merely stumble over the obstacles he's put in our way. We know, of course, what the Bible says about adversaries:

'The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.' (Isaiah 11:6-9)

Oh, and it's refrain:

'"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the LORD."' (Isaiah 65:25)

So here's the question: are we required to forgive the Devil as we are required to forgive our human adversaries?

I think the question about forgiving the devil is an interesting one. Personally I dont think that is our job, and scripturally there is no mention of it anywhere.

The verses in Jude about the angels who left their proper abode and are held in "aidos chains" awaitng the day of judgment are interesting, as is the verse in Ephesians that says God is using the assembly of believers to manifest His wisdom to the principalities and powers.

Since Jesus made a statement about the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels" it is possible that every demon and Satan himself wil be in some way corrected and transformed in whatever the lake of fire represents- 

for instance, the lake of fire may possibly represent the general assembly of the first- born registered in heaven, the elect of God

"Dont you know you will judge angels"?

"Tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"

All these things are seen through a glass darkly and not much is written, but the general principles of reconciliation and restoration would seem to apply across the board as far as I can see because God would not be inconsistent.

Similar to Israel being adversaries of the gospel but beloved for the forefathers sake....

Jude spoke of how carnal men rail against the devil, when Michael the archangel would not do so, saying, "the Lord rebuke you Satan"...this to me seeming to relate to staying in ones proper abode, like Paul said, "By the grace of God I say unto you let no man esteem himself more highly than he ought but judhe yourself soberly for to each of us is given a measure of grace..."

In other words, evryone has a range of function and a domain of grace given to them, even angels. Only pride or lust leads one to seek a higher abode than has been given, rather than to serve humbly.

Jesus, on the other hand, was exalted because he served, not because he sought to be exalted. "For this reason He was given the name above every name...." Phil 2

I think this is close to the core of all iniquity, this desire to be exalted, and to use that exaltation to gather to oneself glory, domion, or gold. The urge to rule others is one of the most cripling addictions and destructive impulses that exists.

It is at the root of deception, "He that speaks His own words seeks his own glory"- Jesus

"They love the high seats in the synagogue"

"For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God"

I find it interesting that in 1 Cor 15 where it talks about "He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet" that when God is all in all, all "rule, power and authority" will have been abolished.

Leading me to believe that when God is all in all there will be no need for rule, power, authority or law of anykind, because where love rules, no one seeks to invade anyone else. Every one live in the joy of sharing, in communion, in harmony and humility.

As to your question about meeting the devil, since he is the father of lies and author of confusion, according to Jesus- an angel of light, a wolf in sheeps clothing- I would guess many have met him and didnt know it, in one form or another; a few have met him and knew it; in one form or another,

It appears to me from the scriptures that he operates in guise and in people corrupted to his will, and through emissaries who are somtimes ignorantly and sometimes knowingly in alliance with him.

As Paul said, we who are children of the light are not ignorant of his wiles- who roams about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

But then you dont believe he exists, so what matters if we meet him or theorize as to what he is and how he works ;o)

I have to say, any anger I had toward Satan dissipated when I discovered UR. Life is hard enough than to be angry at something I can't even see and who has way less power over God's plan than I thought. I agree about being watchful, but I don't think unforgiveness of Satan is any more part of our journey than forgiveness. I don't need to forgive a wild animal. It does whatever its function is. It's just a non issue for me as far as my emotions go.

 

Quote from: Seth on September 30, 2016, 09:18:32 PM
I have to say, any anger I had toward Satan dissipated when I discovered UR. Life is hard enough than to be angry at something I can't even see and who has way less power over God's plan than I thought. I agree about being watchful, but I don't think unforgiveness of Satan is any more part of our journey than forgiveness. I don't need to forgive a wild animal. It does whatever its function is. It's just a non issue for me as far as my emotions go.

  :iagree:

Personally, I am glad there are things we cannot see clearly, if at all. It reminds me of the immensity of our God, and His works, and His ways.

I don't know....reading the last few blogs, something in me thought....we will not be angry with Satan....we will feel badly for him......for all the energy he spent on waste and vanity of vanities.

Even if we haven't resolved all our anger, I don't think we will feel angry in God's presence. It will seem a waste of our energies, at that point, as well.

He will look pathetic, in the light of Jesus. He will be the last of the lost.

Just a thought.......

D.   

Eaglesway, Dandelion and Seth, great posts! I learned a lot from each one.. At times I have a tendency to despise satan&co. who interfere, it seems to me in every thing in life.. (The first to say (?)  I will exalt myself above the Most High.."?) Working all sides to issues, disputes.. wars. Helping to accelerate whenever possible to wars, division, hatred.. and abuses.. Though I know it's pointless to grieve over people's sufferings and infirmities and misfortunes, tragedies - and - or as, despising the principalities and powers. Doesn't the principalities at all! Better to abide in the peace of knowing Him and UR-the spirit of trust?/shield of faith, peacefully wearing the armor of God. Not stirred up/...angry..

.."the last of the lost.." profound! :thumbsup:

God created satan.
Satan is recognised by Christ as the prince of this age; ergo seems to indicate that satan is here deliberately as part of God's plan.
We are  to learn right from wrong- so this seems to promote role play as necessary to have depictions of what will happen when the wrong motives, desires etc are used.
As Paul says, " if this life is all there is then we should be pitied most of all." 1 Cor 15;19
We are also told not to judge others- satan is an 'other'
Christ said; ' Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Nobody could do that.
Judas was appointed to condemn Christ and expose him. He will be saved as well as us.

I.M.O the 1000 years will remove our ability to blame satan for our mistakes;  but that should then in turn speak to us of our real power/position;  hence the need to actually make informed decisions from the right basis- God.
So much to learn.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 30, 2016, 07:33:56 PM

Quote from: CST on September 30, 2016, 01:58:34 PM
As I've mentioned before I don't believe in Satan, but for the purposes of this topic that doesn't really matter as I am very enamored with the idea of reconciling adversaries. Of course, I think of human adversaries first. We've met them, experienced them, been hurt by them that is where our forgiveness lies.

So, with that in mind, the Bible teaches that know man has ever seen God, but we can meet Him in Jesus. So I have a question, have any or all of us ever met the Devil or do we merely stumble over the obstacles he's put in our way. We know, of course, what the Bible says about adversaries:

'The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall feed; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.' (Isaiah 11:6-9)

Oh, and it's refrain:

'"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, says the LORD."' (Isaiah 65:25)

So here's the question: are we required to forgive the Devil as we are required to forgive our human adversaries?

I think the question about forgiving the devil is an interesting one. Personally I dont think that is our job, and scripturally there is no mention of it anywhere.

The verses in Jude about the angels who left their proper abode and are held in "aidos chains" awaitng the day of judgment are interesting, as is the verse in Ephesians that says God is using the assembly of believers to manifest His wisdom to the principalities and powers.

Since Jesus made a statement about the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels" it is possible that every demon and Satan himself wil be in some way corrected and transformed in whatever the lake of fire represents- 

for instance, the lake of fire may possibly represent the general assembly of the first- born registered in heaven, the elect of God

"Dont you know you will judge angels"?

"Tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels"

All these things are seen through a glass darkly and not much is written, but the general principles of reconciliation and restoration would seem to apply across the board as far as I can see because God would not be inconsistent.

Similar to Israel being adversaries of the gospel but beloved for the forefathers sake....

Jude spoke of how carnal men rail against the devil, when Michael the archangel would not do so, saying, "the Lord rebuke you Satan"...this to me seeming to relate to staying in ones proper abode, like Paul said, "By the grace of God I say unto you let no man esteem himself more highly than he ought but judhe yourself soberly for to each of us is given a measure of grace..."

In other words, evryone has a range of function and a domain of grace given to them, even angels. Only pride or lust leads one to seek a higher abode than has been given, rather than to serve humbly.

Jesus, on the other hand, was exalted because he served, not because he sought to be exalted. "For this reason He was given the name above every name...." Phil 2

I think this is close to the core of all iniquity, this desire to be exalted, and to use that exaltation to gather to oneself glory, domion, or gold. The urge to rule others is one of the most cripling addictions and destructive impulses that exists.

It is at the root of deception, "He that speaks His own words seeks his own glory"- Jesus

"They love the high seats in the synagogue"

"For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God"

I find it interesting that in 1 Cor 15 where it talks about "He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet" that when God is all in all, all "rule, power and authority" will have been abolished.

Leading me to believe that when God is all in all there will be no need for rule, power, authority or law of anykind, because where love rules, no one seeks to invade anyone else. Every one live in the joy of sharing, in communion, in harmony and humility.

As to your question about meeting the devil, since he is the father of lies and author of confusion, according to Jesus- an angel of light, a wolf in sheeps clothing- I would guess many have met him and didnt know it, in one form or another; a few have met him and knew it; in one form or another,

It appears to me from the scriptures that he operates in guise and in people corrupted to his will, and through emissaries who are somtimes ignorantly and sometimes knowingly in alliance with him.

As Paul said, we who are children of the light are not ignorant of his wiles- who roams about like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour.

But then you dont believe he exists, so what matters if we meet him or theorize as to what he is and how he works ;o)

Interesting. I asked about meeting Satan because it was consistent with the main message of forgiving our adversaries, most of our adversaries we do meet. Not all but I expect most. Meeting people has adversaries probably does nothing good for a animosity.

But what about my own answer to the question. Directly, of course, I don't think Satan exists to be forgiven but in the passage from Isaiah I references we can read: 'and dust shall be the serpents food.' This continues to have the implication that the serpent eats the dead but whether it actually retains that aspect or not it would seem to suggest the serpent remains under the curse it the next world and so perhaps forgiveness should not be expected for Satan.

...the serpent slithers over the earth.. I get the sense perhaps the prophecy was said in metaphor? The serpent originally was more upright.. not crawling midst the dust of earth.. A lot of scripture and prophecy, I think, opposite from what we humans think these days, that much prophecy foretells earthly events, not final outcome prophecy. Even many of the fire and brimstone prophecies I most often believe are earth scenes which occur in the earthly arena.

I learned recently that in the thermonuclear bomb or explosion, is sulphur. Which I thought was interesting and didn't know before.

--
Eaglesway's post explains this verse - which to me was always confusing..

Luke 15:16 - "...what is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination in the sight of God."

Thanks Eaglesway! I could never quite get the sense of understanding this verse.. But the verse, I think, encompasses so much! The human behavior you describe in your post, I'm thinking, likely a foundation abomination, yet highly esteemed among men. And perhaps is THE alternate psychology. The apart from God psychology, an abomination. (which it surely is! but is like THE abomination..)

QuoteEven if we haven't resolved all our anger, I don't think we will feel angry in God's presence. It will seem a waste of our energies, at that point, as well.

When we see him we will be like him. So yeah... :thumbsup:

  I agree with  so much of the   things brought out in this thread..........
  True it is  GOD whom rebukes satan ,,,,, 
  I saw this in  Jesus telling  Peter  ,  and rebuking him , he was not tasting the  things of God /LIFE /TREE OF LIFE .
  But the things that be of men ...tasting death   as an adversary against the TRUTH .. 
and Michael  saying.'' The LORD rebuke you satan !'', when contending over the  body of moses ..  IN JUDE.

  I have seen a lot of ''mental illness ''  sin sickness rise up out of the   religious   battles and divisions   , making many worse off and not the better for ''seeking Gods face '' over the course of human history.
and DO see a  lot of vanity   , being  useless  efforts  lying against  the TRUTH ...

I guess the greatest proof   that impressed on me was  in Job   41 and any human effort would not prevail against  GOD

But it was all those whom ''joined with the Beast ''   being full of  spiritual pride ,  now this chapter is full of wisdom  .

This beast  , makes a covenant    with God  ,  and the word play is amazing    the LEVI  priesthood   making Leviathan   a  great beast of the sea ,  being many tongues peoples and nations   .......   over the course   of humanity as earthly dwellings .  would never make ''perfect''  complete    , but it sure DID  PROVE GODS WORD  AS TRUE ......making every man a liar .




Now this other beast of the earth being a Behemoth  in Job 40     and was made along with Job  on the 6th day  ,being the inward man of the heart and the outward man    as a beast  , being both the  good and the evil image 



I can  certainly see this as being      the trees of knowledge of good and evil   God planted in the earth and what  man sees and judges  according to the outward appearances  [image ]   and the vain imaginations  take a  hold of .

I have certainly considered this to imply , GOD GAVE  mankind an earthly wisdom  that is not different than a beast   in the  natures  ,  that ECC 3  speaks of  , giving  great clues and in Jude being the natural brute beast  that bring on  their own demise and destroy themselves with .

  Being led  by this kind of wisdom of the carnal mind and nature God   gave them to work  painfully   fruitlessly  from , many kingdoms to be brought  down from their own high places they built up from in the earth    and ruling over many of the weaker    types and  helpless  natures ,   I see our own government  doing this with hate and greed and  abuse of power over the peoples tongues and nations and also in the religious circles  being the sea monster    , both  being beasts

as past , present and future  as  an end of fruitless pursuit and nothing   but dead works to show for it


Gen 1  24Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. 25God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

      26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."


29Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed;

it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
 
These are very powerful Living WORDS    about the seeds and trees and what we eat   to sustain  us    and what manner of trees we are eating from 

   The mixing of good and evil has  PROVEN GOD IS TRUE   every single time  , but the offering of the tree of Life   is in JESUS CHRIST  ,   THE OPEN SHOWING OF A NEW AND BETTER WAY   AND LIFE    WOULD COME  and never die though HIM    , THIS SEED IS THE INCORRUPTIBLE ONE 

You being evil know how to give good gifts to your children , how much more will the Heavenly Father give the good gifts / HOLY SPIRIT to those whom ask HIM ! These are the only   good and living works   that  endure   all things .

  and cannot be  corrupted    being is is the TRUE AND  VERY PERFECT IMAGE OF GOD   HIMSELF
 
When GOD said though Jesus Christ being the very SPIRIT OF PROPHECY as fulfilling  ,''  all things into HIMSELF '',    the  true worshippers  will worship GOD IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH  ONLY  ,as He is seeking out the hearts of mankind ,and giving these gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT     now , it will be the only thing that survives and everything else will fail   the test      and not survive  in GODS PRESENCE    and the only IMAGE    we can  trust in fully and completely   and perfectly  in the END
GOD IN HIS WISDOM  ONLY .

Quote from: marie glen on October 01, 2016, 06:53:16 PM
...the serpent slithers over the earth.. I get the sense perhaps the prophecy was said in metaphor? The serpent originally was more upright.. not crawling midst the dust of earth.. A lot of scripture and prophecy, I think, opposite from what we humans think these days, that much prophecy foretells earthly events, not final outcome prophecy. Even many of the fire and brimstone prophecies I most often believe are earth scenes which occur in the earthly arena.

I learned recently that in the thermonuclear bomb or explosion, is sulphur. Which I thought was interesting and didn't know before.

--
Eaglesway's post explains this verse - which to me was always confusing..

Luke 15:16 - "...what is highly esteemed among men, is an abomination in the sight of God."

Thanks Eaglesway! I could never quite get the sense of understanding this verse.. But the verse, I think, encompasses so much! The human behavior you describe in your post, I'm thinking, likely a foundation abomination, yet highly esteemed among men. And perhaps is THE alternate psychology. The apart from God psychology, an abomination. (which it surely is! but is like THE abomination..)

Well, that's just it isn't it? Current Christian theology seems to teach that the term 'serpent' equals the term 'Devil' or 'Satan' directly. When you believe the story of Eden as a literal history you are obligated either to believe the Devil took the form of a serpent in order to beguile Eve. Or else 'serpent' is simply an active synonymous term that the writer and Eve can use to describe Satan and both understand what it actually means. This concept seems unlikely because without the knowledge of Good and Evil which Eve did not yet possess why would she know who Satan was. The term 'Satan' never appears in Genesis at all.

Now EW mentioned a statement of Jesus in which He said Satan can take the form of an Angel of Light. Now this is an interesting statement which seems to reference a pseudepigraphal text 'The Books Of Adam and Eve (and similar) in which Adam and Eve attempt to do penitence of Adam's own design in the hope that God with let them back into Eden - Adam fasting Eve standing mute in a river for forty days. In the story Satan appears to Eve - again - disguised as 'the brightness of angels' to try to get Eve to abandon her penitence by telling her it has achieved it's purpose. Whether he succeeds or not depends on which version of the story you're reading (although the one where he doesn't is supposedly narrated by her :rolleye:) and it is just as possible, as far as I know, the story could be written by early Christians based on what Jesus is recorded as saying. But there's a phrase and a reference for the phrase.

I mention these because there is also a pseudepigral book 'The Book Of Adam' where the serpent is not Satan but instead is employed by Satan to deceive Eve. Just to show that religious history appears not to always have held the same position on this matter.

On the matter of prophesy I agree that it may speak more to future world history that the final victory of our Lord, but you must concede that those passages from Isaiah appear to describe a very strong victory it's hard to image the New Earth being less than is described there. Even though as advocates for UR we believe eventually there will be no dead for the serpent to feed on because they will all be raised by Jesus to life eventually. Of course, the curse also culminates in that same Jesus eventually crushing the serpent's head. Which sounds pretty final no matter how optimistic I try to be. But I don't believe in the Devil so this action doesn't refer to the final destruction of any real character but simply the forces that might lead humans away from God and towards those abominable things which they high esteem. A phrase that I feel needs careful understanding. The story of thing that enables ETers to write of most of the species because we're all irredeemably incorrigible.

The Bible says that we both no how to give good gifts to our children and that our thoughts are immovably evil from the first. taken absolutely literally these phrases are mutually exclusive. Something who thinks on naught but evil cannot possibly know what good is but the Bible suggests that in some sense both are true. The Bible is a wonderful book full of allusions, poetry, irony and hyperbole. A failure to see things in the Bible for what they are is what is most likely to mislead the reader into thinking the inspired Bible says something it doesn't.

Quote from: Ross on October 01, 2016, 08:26:11 AM
God created satan.
Satan is recognised by Christ as the prince of this age; ergo seems to indicate that satan is here deliberately as part of God's plan.
We are  to learn right from wrong- so this seems to promote role play as necessary to have depictions of what will happen when the wrong motives, desires etc are used.
As Paul says, " if this life is all there is then we should be pitied most of all." 1 Cor 15;19
We are also told not to judge others- satan is an 'other'
Christ said; ' Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Nobody could do that.
Judas was appointed to condemn Christ and expose him. He will be saved as well as us.

I.M.O the 1000 years will remove our ability to blame satan for our mistakes;  but that should then in turn speak to us of our real power/position;  hence the need to actually make informed decisions from the right basis- God.
So much to learn.

I neglected to mention last time how beautiful I thought that post was. Although it may invite more questions than it answers.

Quote from: Seth on October 02, 2016, 07:18:35 AM

QuoteEven if we haven't resolved all our anger, I don't think we will feel angry in God's presence. It will seem a waste of our energies, at that point, as well.

When we see him we will be like him. So yeah... :thumbsup:

I like that idea on many levels but I fear it underestimates human capacity to be irrational. Remember the Bible teaches that only those chosen by God go on to choose God. I don't think that changes in the next life. People remain in rebellion until such a time as God brings therm out of it which is according to His own timetable.

When thinking about the adversary I usually think of the verse Revelation 12:9 - "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."

I can see how to a degree it is metaphoric.. But since Jesus referred to whatever force it is, as an entity/personality, that's the way I take it..

But it seems to me the important thing is, whatever we think the adversary is, is to have our spiritual defenses up and intact. I'm currently learning this. After, abide in Christ, drink the water of the word (daily bread and new wine), always be yield, yielding.. is being added keep spiritual armor - "the armor of God" fully on and secure.

Quote from: CST on October 03, 2016, 02:35:10 PM
A failure to see things in the Bible for what they are is what is most likely to mislead the reader into thinking the inspired Bible says something it doesn't.

I totally agree with that. :smile:

Quote from: CST on October 03, 2016, 02:35:10 PM
..Remember the Bible teaches that only those chosen by God go on to choose God. I don't think that changes in the next life. People remain in rebellion until such a time as God brings therm out of it which is according to His own timetable.

I see some of it is being under a veil.. under untruth.. Case in point, people are now educated to believe the idea of a creator/sustainer God, and the bible, is fairy tale. (But once one investigates the 'science' for their self it is soon apparent the case is so very far from closed. :laughing7: )

Satan, whatever he/it may be "has blinded the minds.." Yet God only removes the veil.. How can both be true? I can't answer for others, but after praying about it, the answers I received was God is both life and perfection. When he endowed thinking ability (to angel and man) it was then that a whole new world (tree) of possibilities came to be. Rational creatures - no matter what degree of rationality - can make choices.

But any tiny degree of differing in thought, word or deed with what He chooses, is to become imperfect, the opposite of life. Hence life as it is and death.. So the rescue was built in from the foundation/beginning. And thus, "The kingdom of heaven - is like leaven a woman hid in 3 measures of meal, till aLL was leavened." - "As in Adam aLL die, even so in Christ aLL will be made alive. 23 But, every man in his own order: (1)Christ the firstfruits; (2)afterward they that are Christ's at his coming, then -- the end, (3)when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.. 28 that God may be aLL in aLL."

These verses tell us everything we need to know. WE know exactly what numbers (1) and (2) are. In between number (2) and number (3) is where we employ some speculation. It encompasses the shutting satan up in the abyss for 1000 years while Jesus reigns upon Earth. Most believers - well, some anyway, are pretty clear on that (the return, then millennium of Christ).

So we have the in between. Has not God said that via the Holy Spirit He would show to His own "things to come"? When I prayed about it, I found myself imagining myself awaking, instead of in the resurrection at His return, awaking from my sleep in the grave in the 2nd resurrection, as my previous, not yet born again self. As one "still in my sins". That gave me a whole new aspect and view of that day we call Judgment Day, and which is biblically, the great white throne judgment.

So I guess, this how we agree, in a sense. It's here, right at the 2nd resurrection, that I believe many will at that moment "be called". I've tended to think of it as 'after experiencing being woke up from the grave after death and also witnessing a great day of review of all human history, etc.. who's not going to "believe" and thus be written in the book of life?'

That's not doctrine, it's my own thoughts on the matter. But I have some faith in it as it all came to me while in prayer and communion with Him. That's my experience. I can't deny my own experience. I also can't easily pass it on, if it be based in truth. Not easily, but I think its likely I'll be like a broken record.. especially as I tend to forget what I've conversed about and haven't, called "repeating myself" :laughing7:

Yes, since coming to tentmaker and reading the view of the next ages on pages and discussion here, I now think there may bery well be some stubborn very hard cases that will still refuse to bend the knee! :mshock: :faint: who will go to the lake of fire, the 2nd death.

Now just recently I've begun to think of this, 2nd death, as the believer's - those born again during this brief life - as their 1st death. And physical death as their 2nd death! Hence, "not hurt of the 2nd death" for we rise in complete newness of Life. But a nonbeliever's first death is physical death. And their immersion into the great lake of the "fire of God's jealousy and correction".

Also, upon awaking in a resurrection "still in one's sins" would be to awaken in that bright (and harsh) all revealing Light of God and His Presence and Throne. I can't help but think many ordinary folks will fall to their knees in awe.. happy to be resurrected :smile: but othere, in all different degrees, will find their selves in deep weeping.. and some will even gnash their teeth.. But - According to #(3) - "when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.. 28 that God may be aLL in aLL" - we KNOW He will be successful in redeeming every soul and psyche.

All I'm saying is, yes, God is the one who calls and chooses, but paradoxically - like so many biblical things are, i also believe we are endowed with some self direction.. But I don't think of it as a matter of 'blame'. We're all to 'blame' - tho too, God Himself is to 'blame' - He endowed rationality/thinking ability - all the more reason He's not going to 'lose' any! Since He Himself designed all things according to His own plan and design of outworking..

I think in a certain degree, I've been babbling.. sorry.. gotta run.. :Peace2:
P.S. - i also agree, some great replies in this thread.. (per usual:)

I'm not sure how to understand the term 'dragon' in the Bible. Obviously dragons don't exist but a reader of English imagines a large four-limbed reptilian creature with huge wings that breaths fire. I'm not sure if that would be the beast translation of the Greek word involved and if it is, is that how John would understand a dragon.

There's a bit more to people's disbelief than how they're 'educated' again the Bible teaches people will or will not believe depending on whether or not God has chosen them too. The arguments that God is a 'fairy tale' is just their way of intellectually justifying their unbelief after the fact.

But I do agree and already understand that only God is Holy and 'perfect' in the absolute sense. And in that sense that will always be true, we will always be 'very good' in that sense because only God is perfect. He founded a new creation when He made us our goal is a 'perfection' according to the design of our creation where we stop doing this that hurt, destroy and otherwise thwart the goals of that creation.

I've had my own vision of the resurrection and my own vision of 'Hell' I can't remember which came first but they were both very powerful experiences. But I can't share them so I don't speak of them much. But my experience of the resurrection almost made me believe in the rapture. These aren't NDEs they're experiences I had that kind of forced themselves on me.

Who ask "who's not going to believe?" I share the sentiment and sympathize with it especially in the past even those who believed in UR were viciously minded when it came to how they understood the process of punishing those God didn't choose. There's a topic I want to write on this in way I hope will be able to promote the purposes of UR.
I've also seen things in the Bible, the gate to the New Jerusalem being left open, the 'death' of death and the place in Samuel where King Saul uses God's victory to pardon all capital criminals on the ground of that victory make me inclined to agree with you.

But I don't think the Lake Of Fire is an empty threat or prediction, God shows Himself to be wrathful many times in the Bible (but...) and when I see your question who will not believe my answer remains, who ever God decides. We can hope that will turn out to be a small number due to the compassion and mercy we are instructed to live by. But we can't know.

And another reason I hope to write that other topic is that I think ET and ED advocates have really done a number on everyone to the point that when they awaken at the resurrection I don't think many will be happy. Some will, of course, and smug with it, they'll probably wish they had been more compassionate and less self-righteous. But I feel many who awake and did not believe and perhaps several who did will awake and be utterly terrified because of what they've been led to believe about the fact of those 'like' them.

Thanks God for them that UR is true. And I don't think you been babbling, well, if so, only slightly. Thanks for listening and responding.

Nice post CST.

Another really good look at what the dragon is is in Isaiah 27

In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
            With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
            Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
            And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

He will slay the dragon that lives in the deep.... to me this is figurative. The light of day pursues the "author of confusion(chaos)" into the deep deep places where he lurks and twists, justifying himself. "In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters and GOD SAID.... the GREAT  and MIGHTY sword of His word....LET THERE BE LIGHT.

But yet, it is also literal, for all these things will be brought to light by the Day of His appearing.

But further as to the metaphor

Leviathan lives in all the sons of pride..

the whole of Job 41 explains him metaphorically

31"He makes the depths boil like a pot;
            He makes the sea like a jar of ointment.

      32"Behind him he makes a wake to shine;
            One would think the deep to be gray-haired.

      33"Nothing on earth is like him,
            One made without fear.

      34"He looks on everything that is high;
            He is king over all the sons of pride."

I think tfurther his is explained also in Heb 4

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Let there be light, light divided from darkness, chaos and emptiness into harmony and fulness.

This is what I think aionian kolassis(Gehenna, the lake of fire) is- not physical torment of anykind, but rather being pentrated by the light and having Leviathan pulled up from the deep and slain(deceptive prideful heart pierced by the sword of the Spirit, every veil torn by the light of His countenance)

I do believe many will bow the knee instantly and rejoice, but ersonally, I dont think it ill be "just a few hard cases" that experience aionian kolassis in the lake of fire.

The question is (imo) not, "Who will not believe?" in the sense of, "Who will not believe what their eyes see".

That is not what it means to believe in the biblical sense.

We who adore Him can perhaps not fathom aionian adversaries standing before the throne unwilling to acknowledge their rebellion, but I have seen people shake their fist at God as they walked through the door into eternity and I have seen wickedness and depravity at such deep levels that I both believe that many adversaries are harder of heart than we can imagine- and I believe that there are sins committed in this world that can ONLY be answered in the olam of God.

Leviathan ...

14"Who can open the doors of his face?
            Around his teeth there is terror.

      15"His strong scales are his pride,
            Shut up as with a tight seal.

      16"One is so near to another
            That no air can come between them.

Only the sharp two edged sword that comes from the mouth of the Lord can pierce Him

The scriptures clearly say that there will be people who experience aionian consequences for their earthly acts and attitudes.

God is not, imo, one to warn people about something He has no intention of invoking, or to strongly speak to a recompense that He never intends to levy upon those who mock Him.

For instance, I agree that Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years, with ten thousands of ten thousands of resurrected saints as preists on earth- but all through that 1000 years their will still be enemies, adversaries and sinners to subject...

and at the end of the thousand years the adversary will be released and there will be a final rebellion into which, it appears a vast number of people will fall. So "Who can see and not believe"? apparently many can see and "not convert".

Otherwise ther would be no need of ANY MENTION of aionian kolassis.

Yet, there are scriptural warnings to the wicked concerning aionian consequences or wickedness from JESUS AND EVERY APOSTLE.

James says...

THE DEVILS BELIEVE AND TREMBLE....

That kind of belief will not save from aionian consequences, imo-

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. 2Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. 3Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire.

While I rejoice with joy unspekable and full of glory that every advesary will be reconciled, I dont think the process to "subjection" will be pleasant for all of them and I continue to warn such of the judgment to come.

  :HeartThrob:  Good Word John !

Thinking today of  how even  Michael the angel did not rebuke  satan the  adversary  to Gods will  , but said the Lord rebuke you satan .

  and  How it is the Lord whom rebukes us and chastens us !! and How He done Peter when he was tasting the things that be of men and not  GOD

and How he told satan to WORSHIP GOD and him only shall   you serve    in Matt4 and Luke 4    Hebrews 12 

God Disciplines His Sons
...5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you.

6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son.

" 7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?...

  These things have really have me looking closer than ever before      and  repentance  is changing your mind ,  from the carnal  and beast  nature to the Mind of Christ     ,  the mind of Christ    is the token of the HOLY SPIRIT  working in us all to know the spiritual things  of God Spiritual Wisdom
...15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment. 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
21Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us, 22placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

  Only God  can give us   these things , they come from no man  ever ...
 

Very nice verses Rose! :dsunny:

..."punishing those God didn't choose" - this is one reason why I sometimes think few will actually go to the lake of fire.. just a few (relatively speaking) despots.. or some who have trained their heart to habitually, no matter what, reject God. A sin unable to be forgiven? while held to, that is? Other times, because of the horrors of history, I think many will experience the wrath of God.. But then again, half the time, I think a majority of that will be via what's called "the apocalypse" when man's empire, finally gone global and predatory, crashes and burns. A graphic example to all.

In the way that I think of things, I can't help thinking that in God's truth proving drama, there has to be those wicked doers who do so wickedly they trigger the very 'burning' wrath of God - like when humans offered babes alive in fire to idols.. What righteous God worth His salt wouldn't be angry!? History is full of some terrible stuff. So I find myself thinking there will be a lot of weeping and burning shame on day of judgment following the resurrection of all who rise (eeek) still in their sins, not yet chosen of God..
:2c: :smile:

P.S - I was thinking about "dragon" and Revelation chapter 4, verses 6-11. The "four living creatures" with six wings, etc. Which I would think of as being sort of living machines.. but also as creatures, for they sing... :dontknow: How terrible, I can't remember what are seraphim and teraphim(?) oiye, better review tomorrow.. Angel's have appeared as men.. on earth.. but I think there may be other heavenly creatures.. Angel's/winds/messengers of a higher order.. and one of these was 'Lucifer' or that is, the [original/first adversary - which was intended by God to speed this nature running its course 'program'/drama(?) along?]

Then (mostly) metaphorically, the fine, soft feathers of the angel became the hard scales of the dragon.. fire breathing.. oops! Maybe not.. little carried away there.. :laughing7:

I think are probably many classes of angels and other heavenly creatures. Seems like since that which is heavenly exceeds that which is earthly and since God is SO creative, that would be so.

Who knows, maybe thats where the "greys" come from  :laughing7:

Quote from: marie glen on October 04, 2016, 04:46:38 AM
Very nice verses Rose! :dsunny:

..."punishing those God didn't choose" - this is one reason why I sometimes think few will actually go to the lake of fire.. just a few (relatively speaking) despots.. or some who have trained their heart to habitually, no matter what, reject God. A sin unable to be forgiven? while held to, that is? Other times, because of the horrors of history, I think many will experience the wrath of God.. But then again, half the time, I think a majority of that will be via what's called "the apocalypse" when man's empire, finally gone global and predatory, crashes and burns. A graphic example to all.

In the way that I think of things, I can't help thinking that in God's truth proving drama, there has to be those wicked doers who do so wickedly they trigger the very 'burning' wrath of God - like when humans offered babes alive in fire to idols.. What righteous God worth His salt wouldn't be angry!? History is full of some terrible stuff. So I find myself thinking there will be a lot of weeping and burning shame on day of judgment following the resurrection of all who rise (eeek) still in their sins, not yet chosen of God..
:2c: :smile:

  Sis Marie ,
  I always enjoy what you share !!!

ALL   my bros and sister make me think   upon  things with much more depth    , than just scratching the surface ...

I do believe   many  many  natural  minded folk  struggle with  perceiving   and even    defining what   sin is .

When you ask a person," what is sin ?  ,"     Most never have a simple nor clear answer .

    Error   and" missing   the mark"   is  the  simple answer , but has so many  variables  in meaning as so many  peoples lives are vastly  different .


  Even more   is how does God     see us  as His own creation , His ways are not our ways   for sure .

    Bible Says the world is already judged  as  darkness   and not Light   , Yet God so loved the world  He sent the Light  to save it  in John 3 .

  So that gives us  so much to consider ,   if the world is the darkness and ignorance of God  , we waste a lot of time judging the darkness   as sin  and death .

, this seems to be the futile   "works"  in my own opinion ,  that is the vanity    creation is "subject too" .  Only because God has judged it already   .

I  am under the impression , this was Paul's   beautiful  testimony  and as being a witness as   to SEEING this great Light    on the personal level     that blinded him    with brilliance     and  he went on     to claim  as    to  not knowing anything  now except  Jesus Christ and Him crucified  .

  Leaving those elementary  and child  like   things  behind him     spoken of in Hebrews 6  , knowing that LIFE   though the Spirit of Life by the WORD OF TRUTH was    leaving death behind him and was in the new reconciling     the world , such darkness  though Jesus Christ ministry  of healing and saving      cleansing the  minds of  old clutter    as   preparing chastened virgins   for Christ coming      to be a    birthing the new and living way     for   the sons of God to be   revealed in Christ  , this special anointing that come though the  one of a kind   firstfruits  of Gods increase   SON   , FULL of truth and grace .
CHILDREN  OF THE DAY AND LIGHT is the new  creation that  pleases GOD and is sinless in the sense    of this  ,  no error   in the TRUTH setting them free   from

the bondage of death and judging it  anylonger , but  go on into  completeness    / perfection    that being the endless Life in Christ as the LORD of the dead and the Living  till all be made ALIVE  and  presented to the FATHER THE LIVING GOD   and serving HIM ONLY  in Spirit  and truth .

  The greatest clue   to me was GODS CREATION IS HELD IN CHRIST   NOW as all things  were  created for Him and in Him all things are held  Col 1  helped so much to    let it sink into my  ears and  heart   to understand the magnitude    of such a powerful    LIVING   Supreme  WORD ..


For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, ... because in Him were created all things in the heavens and upon the earth, the visible and the .... 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

This UR  message  can help so many now   struggling with  the darkness  of sin and death   in their own lives and hearts   working against the Light that come to save them  in the first place ..
  Seeing things differently  and in a whole new perspective   is changing our minds  "repentance "  from the  natural    view of things to    a  whole  another    world of Light and Life where GOD IS SOOOO GLORIOUS and never knew what I was missing   my own whole earthly existence    before  the LIGHT come to change [mind of Christ  the  anointing  Salvation  of GOD HIMSELF ] this dark and dismal   view     that some how depended on me   to change my self  and saw   if God made it a leopard  , a type of beast ,  can it change its spots ?

ONLY GOD CAN CHANGE  our minds and hearts and this to me is by SEEING HIM   , no man has ever seen God at any time  , But  in John 1  we see JESUS

THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD and ONLY begotten of the Father  [ IN CHRIST  MIND / HEART , LIGHT, LIFE  ,WE CAN  SEE  GOD ]   The Word Became flesh
...17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

19And this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him, "Who are you?"...

   What a gift of great grace   is this  to be made known and  shared  as our witness/testimony  !!!WOW !! :HeartThrob:  This simplicity is Christ is glorious!!!!!!!!

Quote from: eaglesway on October 03, 2016, 09:05:55 PM
Nice post CST.

Another really good look at what the dragon is is in Isaiah 27

In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
            With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
            Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
            And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

He will slay the dragon that lives in the deep.... to me this is figurative. The light of day pursues the "author of confusion(chaos)" into the deep deep places where he lurks and twists, justifying himself. "In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters and GOD SAID.... the GREAT  and MIGHTY sword of His word....LET THERE BE LIGHT.

But yet, it is also literal, for all these things will be brought to light by the Day of His appearing.

But further as to the metaphor

Leviathan lives in all the sons of pride..

the whole of Job 41 explains him metaphorically

31"He makes the depths boil like a pot;
            He makes the sea like a jar of ointment.

      32"Behind him he makes a wake to shine;
            One would think the deep to be gray-haired.

      33"Nothing on earth is like him,
            One made without fear.

      34"He looks on everything that is high;
            He is king over all the sons of pride."

I think tfurther his is explained also in Heb 4

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Let there be light, light divided from darkness, chaos and emptiness into harmony and fulness.

This is what I think aionian kolassis(Gehenna, the lake of fire) is- not physical torment of anykind, but rather being pentrated by the light and having Leviathan pulled up from the deep and slain(deceptive prideful heart pierced by the sword of the Spirit, every veil torn by the light of His countenance)

I do believe many will bow the knee instantly and rejoice, but ersonally, I dont think it ill be "just a few hard cases" that experience aionian kolassis in the lake of fire.

The question is (imo) not, "Who will not believe?" in the sense of, "Who will not believe what their eyes see".

That is not what it means to believe in the biblical sense.

We who adore Him can perhaps not fathom aionian adversaries standing before the throne unwilling to acknowledge their rebellion, but I have seen people shake their fist at God as they walked through the door into eternity and I have seen wickedness and depravity at such deep levels that I both believe that many adversaries are harder of heart than we can imagine- and I believe that there are sins committed in this world that can ONLY be answered in the olam of God.

Leviathan ...

14"Who can open the doors of his face?
            Around his teeth there is terror.

      15"His strong scales are his pride,
            Shut up as with a tight seal.

      16"One is so near to another
            That no air can come between them.

Only the sharp two edged sword that comes from the mouth of the Lord can pierce Him

The scriptures clearly say that there will be people who experience aionian consequences for their earthly acts and attitudes.

God is not, imo, one to warn people about something He has no intention of invoking, or to strongly speak to a recompense that He never intends to levy upon those who mock Him.

For instance, I agree that Jesus will reign on earth for a thousand years, with ten thousands of ten thousands of resurrected saints as preists on earth- but all through that 1000 years their will still be enemies, adversaries and sinners to subject...

and at the end of the thousand years the adversary will be released and there will be a final rebellion into which, it appears a vast number of people will fall. So "Who can see and not believe"? apparently many can see and "not convert".

Otherwise ther would be no need of ANY MENTION of aionian kolassis.

Yet, there are scriptural warnings to the wicked concerning aionian consequences or wickedness from JESUS AND EVERY APOSTLE.

James says...

THE DEVILS BELIEVE AND TREMBLE....

That kind of belief will not save from aionian consequences, imo-

Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. 2Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. 3Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire.

While I rejoice with joy unspekable and full of glory that every advesary will be reconciled, I dont think the process to "subjection" will be pleasant for all of them and I continue to warn such of the judgment to come.

If we're talking about the 'dragon that lives in the sea' as Leviathan than it sounds less like Satan and more like his seven headed servant that corrupts the World (if there's really a difference). But 'Leviathan is in many ways more difficult than 'dragon' because it's a Hebrew word everyone simply transliterates directly as clearly no-one really knows what it means. The Job reference is interesting in this matter because both Satan and Leviathan appear and don't seem to be the same thing. And in section of Job you mention it also reads (unless I've misunderstood) 'In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.' (Job 41:22) I'm pretty sure both Satan and the Beast produce and much prefer sorrow over joy so this line seems a bit anomalous when painting a portrait of an evil monster. I word appears four time in The Old Testament and never in the New.

I repeat what I said about struggling to believe the Lake Of Fire an empty threat however, that 'but...' I mentioned waxes strong. What I'm about to say confuses me because it should be incredibly helpful for those like us who advocate UR yet I don't know that it is because I'm not sure what to mention it. It's about the Lake of Fire representing the Wrath of God as ET people clearly like to argue, the endless wrath of God visited on endlessly wicked sinners. The word 'wrath' appears in the Revelation 13 times according to how it is translated in the KJV (I hope to check the facts of this representation later) and is generally attached to some pretty scary stuff but while it's eight appearance is in many ways no less scary it also somewhat reassuring because it reads thus: 'Then I saw another portent in heaven, great and wonderful, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is ended.' Some translations say 'finished' some 'completed but the general understanding is that even though the book uses the word four more times (subject to checking the Greek) the wrath of God has a conclusion. It's not infinite as the ET lot would like to have us believe. So this is very reassuring except that it's also not connected to the Lake of Fire the last mention of the word 'wrath' is slightly ahead (and a different Greek word - that needed checking immediately) of the appearance of the Lake of Fire and the White Throne Judgement. So if the Lake of Fire does not represent the wrath of God, which the claim that it does (although that may depend on the strength of the Greek words involved), what is it? What's God doing consigning people there if not fulfilling 'wrath'? Sounds so useful to us UR proponents except it suggest something doesn't have to be wrathful to be unpleasant. It confuses me a lot about how to understand the Lake of Fire knowing (with pretty reliable certainty) that it is not an instrument of God's wrath (which it could be but not 'the wrath of God' as described in the phrase that describes something that has a conclusion.

I'm unclear about the 1000 years it confuses me for many reasons.

Quote from: marie glen on October 04, 2016, 04:46:38 AM
Very nice verses Rose! :dsunny:

..."punishing those God didn't choose" - this is one reason why I sometimes think few will actually go to the lake of fire.. just a few (relatively speaking) despots.. or some who have trained their heart to habitually, no matter what, reject God. A sin unable to be forgiven? while held to, that is? Other times, because of the horrors of history, I think many will experience the wrath of God.. But then again, half the time, I think a majority of that will be via what's called "the apocalypse" when man's empire, finally gone global and predatory, crashes and burns. A graphic example to all.

In the way that I think of things, I can't help thinking that in God's truth proving drama, there has to be those wicked doers who do so wickedly they trigger the very 'burning' wrath of God - like when humans offered babes alive in fire to idols.. What righteous God worth His salt wouldn't be angry!? History is full of some terrible stuff. So I find myself thinking there will be a lot of weeping and burning shame on day of judgment following the resurrection of all who rise (eeek) still in their sins, not yet chosen of God..
:2c: :smile:

You mentioned the term 'wrath of God' twice there and as you have a special interest in the Revelation may be particularly interested in the above part of my post.

You ask what is 'sin'? This topic has got me asking the opposite question 'what is forgiveness?' clearly forgiveness is a very beautiful thing that is worth more than can be named. Sin is very ugly thing we all want to have as little to do with as possible. Yet the mystery seems to show it's self again in that if we had no sin we would need no forgiveness. Very strange.

A few more thoughts on reconciling the adversaries and aionian correction/fire.

There is no "hell" imo. Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for standing in the presence of the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face shines like the sun and out of whose mouth proceeds a two edged sword that divides asunder soul and spirit, until every hidden thing is brought to light,and every knee bows... "their conscience accusing or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ." Rom 2

Many universalists are so conditioned to "hellism" and reacting against it, they hav a difficult time seeing the fire of God in any other context than that of torment in hell, or some kind of purgatory. IMO hell and purgatory are primitive myths intermixed with a corruption of what the scriptures teach about how the judgment of God works- flowing out from the midst of His people. I thnk this why "judgment begins at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem."

All judgment(from God) ends in conviction(exposure/awareness), which ends in repentence(a change of heart and mind), which opens the well of forgiveness and the fountain of the joy of reconciliation and restoration.... "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret" 2 Cor 7:10

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" 1 Cor 6:2

"Every mans work will be tested by fire for the Day" 1 Cor 3:13-15(IMO the Day is the full revelation of His face exalted in the midst of the "great congregation)

"I will give You thanks in the great congregation; I will praise You among a mighty throng." Ps 35

"God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers." Ps 83

"Millions of angels ministered to him; many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened." Dan 7:10

I see it more like a great family intervention among the children of men than anything else.

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven." Heb 12

I think it would be better if we could forget about "hell" and "purgatory" and "torment" and just start from scratch with the scriptures properly translated. Orthodoxy(imo) is often no more than the codification of the errors of churchmen. I do not believe in torment, other than the torment that may come as one begins to see the effect of their deeds and attitudes in the light of God's love expressed through Christ crucified. Once that awareness is come, I believe repentence, forgiveness and restoration follow shortly after.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 05, 2016, 09:49:28 AM
A few more thoughts on reconciling the adversaries and aionian correction/fire.

There is no "hell" imo. Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for standing in the presence of the One whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face shines like the sun and out of whose mouth proceeds a two edged sword that divides asunder soul and spirit, until every hidden thing is brought to light,and every knee bows... "their conscience accusing or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ." Rom 2

Many universalists are so conditioned to "hellism" and reacting against it, they hav a difficult time seeing the fire of God in any other context than that of torment in hell, or some kind of purgatory. IMO hell and purgatory are primitive myths intermixed with a corruption of what the scriptures teach about how the judgment of God works- flowing out from the midst of His people. I thnk this why "judgment begins at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem."

All judgment(from God) ends in conviction(exposure/awareness), which ends in repentence(a change of heart and mind), which opens the well of forgiveness and the fountain of the joy of reconciliation and restoration.... "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret" 2 Cor 7:10

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?" 1 Cor 6:2

"Every mans work will be tested by fire for the Day" 1 Cor 3:13-15(IMO the Day is the full revelation of His face exalted in the midst of the "great congregation)

"I will give You thanks in the great congregation; I will praise You among a mighty throng." Ps 35

"God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers." Ps 83

"Millions of angels ministered to him; many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened." Dan 7:10

I see it more like a great family intervention among the children of men than anything else.

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven." Heb 12

I think it would be better if we could forget about "hell" and "purgatory" and "torment" and just start from scratch with the scriptures properly translated. Orthodoxy(imo) is often no more than the codification of the errors of churchmen. I do not believe in torment, other than the torment that may come as one begins to see the effect of their deeds and attitudes in the light of God's love expressed through Christ crucified. Once that awareness is come, I believe repentence, forgiveness and restoration follow shortly after.

I'm not sure it's meaning full to say 'There is no "Hell" imo.' Hell is a word that corresponds to something in the minds of those that hear it or read it. IMO means that according to your understanding of the Bible which is where you draw your opinion from it doesn't and can't correspond to anything remotely like what it's currently understand it to. Certainly I share this sentiment, so much so it's hard to think of Hell without conflating it with some form of bullying I is obviously unbecoming to God. Nevertheless if the the word does somehow correspond to some aspect of the truth of what God's judgement is that it remains meaningful and I struggle to see how prolonged periods of shame, grief and sorrow cannot be described in some sense as torment, obviously not torture which is different and definitely seems unbecoming to God, but the word certainly doesn't seem entirely misplaced.

Which is why I though it pertinent to put my observation about the Greek behind the word 'wrath' (that and the fact that was the direction the topic seemed to be taking). This is a thread about 'forgiveness' and 'reconciliation'. The terms 'wrath' and 'wrath of God' definitely appear in the English whatever Greek words may be behind them and they seem so juxtaposed with the terms under discussion here. Let we must accept both of them as true to some degree.

I hear what you are saying share the sentiments yet remember that long list of curses listed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and alluded to elsewhere for rebelling against God. They are progressive, they get worse as Israel continues sinning in spite of them which creates a strange sort of perspective, they look very harsh but somehow aren't so bad that they can simply paralyze the nation by the shear horror of them, but they are horrific and they are recorded as happening. We know God, warns about being harsh, is capable of being harsh and since He doesn't change I fully expect He may well be harsh again. I, like many other humans, struggle with the justice in this in many cases. The world has many harsh and unpleasant people in it, and I can't really not see it as perfectly just that they may receive harsh and unpleasant punishments but it also many weaker and gentler humans and the idea that they may receive the same, a given in traditional understandings of God's judgement - all heathens are as bad as each other and deserve the same punishment - is an idea I balk at. It doesn't even seem supported by the text of the Bible. Jesus says 'the measure you give is the measure you shall receive'. This one size fits all judgement really doesn't seem to fit anyone and leaves the concept of forgiveness and reconciliation rather struggling for its place I feel.

 


  I can only hope to   to clarify   your  thoughts CST  as  we are all sharing our own understanding   on them , to help  , not hinder you  ...

I sure do not mean to cause even more confusion, this is one of the very  reasons I bowed out of these conversations   with you .

  Praying for  Gods grace   on these things  and waiting on the Lord to give life to your spiritual / inner  man  for you ..

We all have two natures  ,  the first one is born  under all these natural elements   we all deal with  on a daily basis and death is a big part of the natural realm of things we  all contend with   and  death has many meanings  besides the literal  one  in my own opinion and many here also  can agree .

  The carnal man or natural man and    I do believe   with all my heart   many of the things spoken  in the WORD OF GOD are  to instill a fear of the Lord in them   and do apply   to the natural man because Gods judgments are in the earth , that being the natural   realm of things , many scriptures  profess this very  concept .

  I use this reasoning by  Jesus  own words saying man shall not live by bread alone , but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God ..
the bread alone  or  the red letters of Christ   speaking as Life giving  to the spiritual man  growing in truth and grace within you   by the Love  of God towards you  ...

But the carnal man reads the Bible too  and we can see that  in this   Gods wrath is for a moment  [70 years more or less] , but His mercy endures forever ..

So in this,  I can see that   our carnal man is only here for a moment  and sees death  and many sorrows  and troubles in  Adam   , but the spiritual man sees Life  and  lives forever  .





14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. 


[ the seed/offspring   between the two  natures of one being carnal and the other being  spiritual   are  enemies to each other  ,  the spiritual one bruises the   head of the   carnal one , as the carnal one  bruises its heel , these blows are  painful to both   and corrective  , but the spiritual  offspring has the upper hand   as to keeping this wisdom in a low place   as we Know Gods ways are higher  Wisdom  and in control   or ruling over the body ]




For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


[ When the new birth happens to us  , as Paul said they are  still under the carnal nature ruling  their bodies   as babes   and unable to walk in the spirit  yet , little ones  and can see  because of the bruising     and have yet to bruise the head of the serpent ,overcoming the world and all its pomp   and foolishness,   this  carnal nature   that has been in control over the body of death  as to holding them down in death  , under the law of sin and death ,,
sin is  being in error  or letting the carnal nature rule  and not     strong  and exercising  faith and hope and love  [Gifts of the Holy Spirit ] Gods grace  in the Spiritual one  yet  and  God   giving  the grace and truth to the increase  of Spiritual growth ...


15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment....

   Judging and being judged   determines    our own spiritual growth   in this  sense as you judge so shall you be judged ,   To me this can be a  blessing[enter  Gods kingdom ]spiritual growth , a new creature in Christ  or a curse [outside still ]  as   carnal[man of sin nature ]  till we learn  Gods righteousness is in the earth as God has poured out His Spirit on all flesh  bodies

Isa 26 With my soul I desired Thee in the night, Also, with my spirit within me I seek Thee earnestly, For when Thy judgments are on the earth, The inhabitants of the world have learned righteousness

The beast is an image , this helps us to see it is not literal   , but an image of all these kingdoms    that man has built   from all the ages  throughout history and recorded for our  benefit as to seeing the results     of rebellion  and doing things with their own  earthly and sensual and devilish wisdom    against the Wisdom of God   and  only     a short time does it seem to prosper till it all falls down  to  dust and rubble  and scattered to the  4 winds , it only prospered by   God being patient with the and see if they could realize  , wake up  and change their minds , repent
  God always sends a  warning   though His messengers  ,    but so many destroyed the messengers       and than the end come upon them

God sent His Son this last time here  for us all  , if we  refuse  Him  what  end will that be ?  the scriptures speaks of these things    .

As far as hell  is concerned   John is right it is   best to start  clean  slate   with it    , start over .....    repent   change your mind  about what you  think   hell is ..

For me only , as many do not share in  this  understanding , but for me this  natural realm  is the hell [fire of many trials and courts  and death /body of death our piece and the world as a whole  [corruption]  all the spiritual children are planted in  and will rise up out of it   in Gods Wisdom   by though and In Christ [  Lord of the dead and the living ] 

I do not think  when the  natural body is  taken out of the way [clay vessel   flesh counts for nothing ]    and the Spirit and soul remains   in tact  and living  still  is  to be judged  what was done in the body ,,,     if it was the soul /life / being  of man of sin  and error   that ruled over the  body or the   Spirit of God and  the Soul/mind / Life  of Christ

This dividing between the  two  by the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT which is GOD'S WORD    will  and does judge us  all ,
  I do not  believe many  understand  the impact of     JESUS CHRIST HOLDING  EVERYTHING IN HIMSELF   ,and everything is subject to HIM ONLY , The concept is highly over looked  and not fully understood     stumbling over  Paul's revelations of Jesus Christ     terribly

JESUS CHRIST TESTIMONY   HOLDS THE KEYS of understanding   and  of Hell and death   HE HOLDS CAPTIVE     IN HIMSELF /WORD OF GOD   , most  cannot grasp the fact   death could not ever  hold Him , but HE HOLDS it  now  totally   and completely  within Himself  in  all creation  the old was  and is and will be  as well as the new  will always be   [ Col 1]  1 Cor 15

TILL HE MAKES   EVERYTHING ALIVE  and presents it   to the Father SPIRIT OF    THE LIVING GOD to  BE ALL IN ALL ...

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

1 Corinthians 12:6
There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.
Eph 4
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 
The fire of GODS JEALOUSY  IS THE WORD IN POWER    .For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.


So all  this  will sound silly to the  earthly minded man  [death holds them captive still]    , it always has  and always will  , because they  do not understand the    LIVING  WORD   nor tasted its power in them yet ...   I was one of those but by the grace of God  HE LIVES IN US ALL    and that hope is you may know Him   in this very way   and in this very   day  and hour .

Quote from: rosered on October 05, 2016, 03:04:41 PM



  I can only hope to   to clarify   your  thoughts CST  as  we are all sharing our own understanding   on them , to help  , not hinder you  ...

I sure do not mean to cause even more confusion, this is one of the very  reasons I bowed out of these conversations   with you .

  Praying for  Gods grace   on these things  and waiting on the Lord to give life to your spiritual / inner  man  for you ..

We all have two natures  ,  the first one is born  under all these natural elements   we all deal with  on a daily basis and death is a big part of the natural realm of things we  all contend with   and  death has many meanings  besides the literal  one  in my own opinion and many here also  can agree .

  The carnal man or natural man and    I do believe   with all my heart   many of the things spoken  in the WORD OF GOD are  to instill a fear of the Lord in them   and do apply   to the natural man because Gods judgments are in the earth , that being the natural   realm of things , many scriptures  profess this very  concept .

  I use this reasoning by  Jesus  own words saying man shall not live by bread alone , but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God ..
the bread alone  or  the red letters of Christ   speaking as Life giving  to the spiritual man  growing in truth and grace within you   by the Love  of God towards you  ...

But the carnal man reads the Bible too  and we can see that  in this   Gods wrath is for a moment  [70 years more or less] , but His mercy endures forever ..

So in this,  I can see that   our carnal man is only here for a moment  and sees death  and many sorrows  and troubles in  Adam   , but the spiritual man sees Life  and  lives forever  .





14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. 


[ the seed/offspring   between the two  natures of one being carnal and the other being  spiritual   are  enemies to each other  ,  the spiritual one bruises the   head of the   carnal one , as the carnal one  bruises its heel , these blows are  painful to both   and corrective  , but the spiritual  offspring has the upper hand   as to keeping this wisdom in a low place   as we Know Gods ways are higher  Wisdom  and in control   or ruling over the body ]




For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


[ When the new birth happens to us  , as Paul said they are  still under the carnal nature ruling  their bodies   as babes   and unable to walk in the spirit  yet , little ones  and can see  because of the bruising     and have yet to bruise the head of the serpent ,overcoming the world and all its pomp   and foolishness,   this  carnal nature   that has been in control over the body of death  as to holding them down in death  , under the law of sin and death ,,
sin is  being in error  or letting the carnal nature rule  and not     strong  and exercising  faith and hope and love  [Gifts of the Holy Spirit ] Gods grace  in the Spiritual one  yet  and  God   giving  the grace and truth to the increase  of Spiritual growth ...


15The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone's judgment....

   Judging and being judged   determines    our own spiritual growth   in this  sense as you judge so shall you be judged ,   To me this can be a  blessing[enter  Gods kingdom ]spiritual growth , a new creature in Christ  or a curse [outside still ]  as   carnal[man of sin nature ]  till we learn  Gods righteousness is in the earth as God has poured out His Spirit on all flesh  bodies

Isa 26 With my soul I desired Thee in the night, Also, with my spirit within me I seek Thee earnestly, For when Thy judgments are on the earth, The inhabitants of the world have learned righteousness

The beast is an image , this helps us to see it is not literal   , but an image of all these kingdoms    that man has built   from all the ages  throughout history and recorded for our  benefit as to seeing the results     of rebellion  and doing things with their own  earthly and sensual and devilish wisdom    against the Wisdom of God   and  only     a short time does it seem to prosper till it all falls down  to  dust and rubble  and scattered to the  4 winds , it only prospered by   God being patient with the and see if they could realize  , wake up  and change their minds , repent
  God always sends a  warning   though His messengers  ,    but so many destroyed the messengers       and than the end come upon them

God sent His Son this last time here  for us all  , if we  refuse  Him  what  end will that be ?  the scriptures speaks of these things    .

As far as hell  is concerned   John is right it is   best to start  clean  slate   with it    , start over .....    repent   change your mind  about what you  think   hell is ..

For me only , as many do not share in  this  understanding , but for me this  natural realm  is the hell [fire of many trials and courts  and death /body of death our piece and the world as a whole  [corruption]  all the spiritual children are planted in  and will rise up out of it   in Gods Wisdom   by though and In Christ [  Lord of the dead and the living ] 

I do not think  when the  natural body is  taken out of the way [clay vessel   flesh counts for nothing ]    and the Spirit and soul remains   in tact  and living  still  is  to be judged  what was done in the body ,,,     if it was the soul /life / being  of man of sin  and error   that ruled over the  body or the   Spirit of God and  the Soul/mind / Life  of Christ

This dividing between the  two  by the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT which is GOD'S WORD    will  and does judge us  all ,
  I do not  believe many  understand  the impact of     JESUS CHRIST HOLDING  EVERYTHING IN HIMSELF   ,and everything is subject to HIM ONLY , The concept is highly over looked  and not fully understood     stumbling over  Paul's revelations of Jesus Christ     terribly

JESUS CHRIST TESTIMONY   HOLDS THE KEYS of understanding   and  of Hell and death   HE HOLDS CAPTIVE     IN HIMSELF /WORD OF GOD   , most  cannot grasp the fact   death could not ever  hold Him , but HE HOLDS it  now  totally   and completely  within Himself  in  all creation  the old was  and is and will be  as well as the new  will always be   [ Col 1]  1 Cor 15

TILL HE MAKES   EVERYTHING ALIVE  and presents it   to the Father SPIRIT OF    THE LIVING GOD to  BE ALL IN ALL ...

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

1 Corinthians 12:6
There are different ways of working, but the same God works all things in all men.
Eph 4
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 
The fire of GODS JEALOUSY  IS THE WORD IN POWER    .For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.


So all  this  will sound silly to the  earthly minded man  [death holds them captive still]    , it always has  and always will  , because they  do not understand the    LIVING  WORD   nor tasted its power in them yet ...   I was one of those but by the grace of God  HE LIVES IN US ALL    and that hope is you may know Him   in this very way   and in this very   day  and hour .

So is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

I'm going stop talking about this stuff now and try to keep it for the topic I'm thinking of doing about it.

Quote from: CST on October 05, 2016, 02:17:58 PM
...all heathens are as bad as each other and deserve the same punishment - is an idea I balk at. It doesn't even seem supported by the text of the Bible. Jesus says 'the measure you give is the measure you shall receive'. This one side fits all judgement really doesn't seem to fit

Me too! I have to think there will be different degrees of weeping, gnashing of teeth and correction. ("The fire of God's jealousy and correction" - a great phrase courtesy of our sister Rose :gsmile: :thumbsup: )

"many stripes.. few stripes.."

And I think of most judgment as consequences our wise heavenly Parent allows to come upon us (how else to prove His point?).. both individual and collective/upon nations..

Obadiah 15 -
"For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near;
As you have done, it shall be done to you;
Your reprisal shall return upon your own head."

QuoteSo is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

I'm going stop talking about this stuff now and try to keep it for the topic I'm thinking of doing about it.

  Think of it like this , if you don't mind considering it ..
  Abraham   considered his body already dead , but it was by faith   that God has supplied  and Abraham used it and become a friend of God  , not an enemy anylonger ...
  What good is it to have the gifts of   GOD [Holy Spirit ] and never use them  , but bury them in your earth/body  ?

   Luke 19   Every man is given a measure of faith  , it is what you do with it   that counts   for nothing or everything ...

  the poor in this world  but rich in faith , or rich in the world    but poor in spirit ? 

  What will a man exchange for his  soul/life ?     what good is it to have   the world and loose your own soul  to vanity and futility ?

Now is the time to repent and change our minds and hearts towards God


Take Up Your Cross  ..
...25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


26What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

27For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done....


Listen, my beloved brothers: Has not God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He promised to those loving Him?

I see the  exchange as  being spiritual for the carnal life in the world   this is in the here and now    to me ...

  I see you are going to make another  topic   CST ..

  God bless     

Quote from: CST on October 05, 2016, 05:19:32 PM
So is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

In my way of thinking, I think of it mostly as learning by experience.. All are experiencing life as we presently know it (imperfect, opposite of God/Perfection/Life).. A matter of thinking and rationality.. logic. That aLL will know that we know, that we know.. that God iS Life itself, and to wander from Him in any teeny tiny way can only ever result in crashing and burning (metaphorically and/or literally) - what is popularly called "apocalypse", which when it occurs is an unveiling - of true from not true, of life from nonlife, good from evil - all interchangeable descriptions of this foundation lesson aLL are, imo, learning, and is being deeeply engraved upon every heart and mind/psyche.. For (surely?) He is not creating robots or an ant farm.. but an un-breakable paradise, perfection - having reaLLy driven home the message to one and all (in earth and heaven) during what is popularly called judgment 'day'. :Peace2: just my :2c:

..and through this process, the imperfect and flawed (carnal) person dies, is crucified with Christ, and we are born again/anew.. and continue to make progress via His Spirit and the washing of the word.. the Spirit and the Word, the daily bread and (new) wine.. the formula(?) to be a branch abiding on the vine.. in that the bread and wine sustenance produces fruit abundant, for He is the vine.

God created man innocent, and therefore unaware of certain dynamics of love, like sacrifice for instance. Forgiveness would be another example.

God, imo, wanted a closer relationship with His creation from before the beginning.. to share Himself because He is generous and joyous, to know us and have sweet intimate fellowship because He loves us.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Ro 8

To me this one verse spans the whole plan of God, and His purpose- all creation as His friends... we were subject to futility, so we could be birthed into harmony and communion in the light.

"No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down His life for His friends"

We call friends those who like us, or we like, but there is a friend who is closer than a brother, with whom you can share anything in life, the deepest things.

So Jesus is the example of the greatest aspect of love, and the result is freindship of the deepest kind possible, union and communion in the harmony, beauty and joy of love.

"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor 4

Light shining out of darkness, Glorious liberty birthed out of futility(chaos).

"In the beginning the earth was without form and void, and the Spirit hovered over the waters"

IMO this is both literal (of primordial creation) and metaphorical(of how God works through chaos, btinging light out of darkness.

We could not know Him, really, without understanding the glory of His love(Christ crucified)- and the power of it.(Christ raised.

We could not know it unless we became of a condition where we could see, personally as individuals and corporately (as the family of creation), what He is measured by what He is not, so...

We passed from innocence to futility and were bound in mortality

"Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.... (Gen 3)

"We know the whole creation travails in childbirth even until now"- macro view

"My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you—" (Gal 4:19)- micro view

The micro view is not lesser, it is the story of the individual building blocks of the new creation- lving stones in a tabernacle for the Spirit of God, that will eventually enfold all creation.

"So we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness(2 Peter 3)

He destroys hate by contrasting it with love. He destroys the natural man by planting the spiritual man in a soul, a soul full of futility, and bringing that light up out of the darkness(darkness was upon the face of the deep, light will shine out of darkness)

It is often painful, as the natural man breaks down and the spirtual man lives ever more in the image of Christ, laying down his life for his friends, instead of taking it up.... forgiving as Christ forgave, untill all have seen that light and been translatred out of the kingdom of darkness ibto the kingdom of His glorious light.

Its a process never over in this life- and the reward is knowing Him, and loving one another, and loving all.

 :iagree: :dsunny:

Quote from: marie glen on October 05, 2016, 06:10:13 PM

Quote from: CST on October 05, 2016, 02:17:58 PM
...all heathens are as bad as each other and deserve the same punishment - is an idea I balk at. It doesn't even seem supported by the text of the Bible. Jesus says 'the measure you give is the measure you shall receive'. This one side fits all judgement really doesn't seem to fit

Me too! I have to think there will be different degrees of weeping, gnashing of teeth and correction. ("The fire of God's jealousy and correction" - a great phrase courtesy of our sister Rose :gsmile: :thumbsup: )

"many stripes.. few stripes.."

And I think of most judgment as consequences our wise heavenly Parent allows to come upon us (how else to prove His point?).. both individual and collective/upon nations..

Obadiah 15 -
"For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near;
As you have done, it shall be done to you;
Your reprisal shall return upon your own head."

Certainly the Bible puts a limit on the number of stripes a person is to receive which those of the ET party tend to forget.

And also Prodigal Son seems to imply that position on judgment at least in some cases. I hope to write more on that in the other post if I ever get round to writing it.

Quote from: rosered on October 05, 2016, 06:19:55 PM

QuoteSo is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

I'm going stop talking about this stuff now and try to keep it for the topic I'm thinking of doing about it.

  Think of it like this , if you don't mind considering it ..
  Abraham   considered his body already dead , but it was by faith   that God has supplied  and Abraham used it and become a friend of God  , not an enemy anylonger ...
  What good is it to have the gifts of   GOD [Holy Spirit ] and never use them  , but bury them in your earth/body  ?

   Luke 19   Every man is given a measure of faith  , it is what you do with it   that counts   for nothing or everything ...

  the poor in this world  but rich in faith , or rich in the world    but poor in spirit ? 

  What will a man exchange for his  soul/life ?     what good is it to have   the world and loose your own soul  to vanity and futility ?

Now is the time to repent and change our minds and hearts towards God


Take Up Your Cross  ..
...25For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


26What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

27For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done....


Listen, my beloved brothers: Has not God chosen the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He promised to those loving Him?

I see the  exchange as  being spiritual for the carnal life in the world   this is in the here and now    to me ...

  I see you are going to make another  topic   CST ..

  God bless     

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead? Without context I don't know what you're trying to say.

Actually I'm struggling to follow a lot of your quotes and references 'every man is given a measure of faith' where does it says that and how? We know not every man is given any measure of grace which makes faith effective. Not in this lifetime that's why it's grace.

I've always been bothered by the references to our cross by Jesus, we're not Him don't have His stamina and if you don't live in the sort of country your likely to be persecuted in you may have to actively go looking for trouble to follow this one. I thought I'd understood it once but I forgot my understanding since. It's also not the best line for the service of UR. ET apologists like it because they can say it suggest a lifetime of suffering in this world is better than endless lifetimes of the same in the next. I object to it on the ground that it instantaneously kills any reason to be thankful to God. He made us our lives to suffer for our lives, thanks for that(!)

The references to losing the soul are also much better for the ET and ED lot than they are for us. There's no suggestion in the text of getting the soul back again in the references.

The last one is very pertinent though, that goes directly to the point of the other topic I hope to write 'each man according to what he has done' is a very fair term, the way Hell and the judgment tends to be described does not sound as fair.

Though I'm not sure any of that really answers my original question.

Quote from: marie glen on October 05, 2016, 06:21:31 PM

Quote from: CST on October 05, 2016, 05:19:32 PM
So is God attempting to save the spiritual man by destroying the carnal man or by 'healing' him (or her)?

In my way of thinking, I think of it mostly as learning by experience.. All are experiencing life as we presently know it (imperfect, opposite of God/Perfection/Life).. A matter of thinking and rationality.. logic. That aLL will know that we know, that we know.. that God iS Life itself, and to wander from Him in any teeny tiny way can only ever result in crashing and burning (metaphorically and/or literally) - what is popularly called "apocalypse", which when it occurs is an unveiling - of true from not true, of life from nonlife, good from evil - all interchangeable descriptions of this foundation lesson aLL are, imo, learning, and is being deeeply engraved upon every heart and mind/psyche.. For (surely?) He is not creating robots or an ant farm.. but an un-breakable paradise, perfection - having reaLLy driven home the message to one and all (in earth and heaven) during what is popularly called judgment 'day'. :Peace2: just my :2c:

..and through this process, the imperfect and flawed (carnal) person dies, is crucified with Christ, and we are born again/anew.. and continue to make progress via His Spirit and the washing of the word.. the Spirit and the Word, the daily bread and (new) wine.. the formula(?) to be a branch abiding on the vine.. in that the bread and wine sustenance produces fruit abundant, for He is the vine.

'In the beginning God created the heaven(s) and the earth.' The famous opening line of the Bible which contain so much detail in such a short phrase the implication is often lost to modern readers.

In Genesis there are, if I've remembered correctly, three great judgements of God. The first is the great flood, as told man has polluted the Earth upon which he walks as from which he is made as so God cause all the water of the Heaven(s) to fall to the ground and symbolically wash everything away. The whole population is drowned sparing only Noah and his immediate family.

From Noah's family a series of new humans spring up and again populate the land this leads to the second great judgement, the one that is often overlooked because it can seem less dramatic, has no principle characters and last about one chapter.

Genesis 11 records how after several generations have passed man gets together at a plain called Shinar and propose to build a city. The pinnacle of this city will be an enormous tower which reaches to the high heavens, implicitly to where the gods are, and they set to work on this obviously impossible feet. Until God is recorded as seeing what they are doing and stopping them by giving them different languages so they can't understand each other and so must abandon the tower. The text doesn't explain exactly what God objected to in this enterprise of human co-operation but there's a suspicion that it has to do with the fact that what they are effectively trying to do is build the world's biggest monument to materialistic idolatry. There are no gods 'up there' they don't mention God or gods when conceiving the project as recorded (though again the implication remains) but they plough on trying to build a tower they obviously can't finish. If they could get any significant distance without it falling down they'd find the air was too thin for them to continue and they'd never find any divine beings because they're not there even while we continue - by tradition and Biblical symbolism - to think of the afterlife as heaven and as 'up there'.

We talk so much about how 'Hell' is a false, misleading term that can only make people imagine spurious horrors we tend not to think that maybe 'Heaven' is too. God created heaven, the Bible says so. He doesn't live there He lives everywhere. Heaven is a much a part of the 'imperfect' created order as the earth is, though it may be understood to be less affected my the fall because man isn't considered the 'head' of heaven.

God is a perfect being but everything He creates is a new thing and does not entirely share that perfection. The Earth is imperfect and is the Heaven. The New Heaven and New Earth will be the same as I see it the major difference will be that the don't tend towards decay because death is not found in them. Sin is what is vanquished and expelled from the new world and sin produces death. It does not produce, as I see it, all the imperfections in the world.

So when you say the carnal man is crucified with Christ is he, raised with Christ, which Paul said that was a natural following of being crucified with Christ or does he, upon raising, turn into the spiritual man. Carnal is such a shorthand for sinful this is really confusing but I don't like this mortal schizophrenia and can only see three interpretation of it: 1. the carnal man is annihilated, so ED is true which all the problems thereof, 2. the carnal man is sent to Gehenna, so ET is true with all the problems thereof, 3. the carnal man is raised with Jesus and stops being 'carnal' and goes to New Jerusalem to live forever. Since the carnal man is no longer carnal it still seems to have been, to all intents and purposes, annihilated (see 1). In all cases the spiritual man goes to the New Jerusalem.

So much for forgiveness and reconciliation.

QuoteCan you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead? Without context I don't know what you're trying to say.

Actually I'm struggling to follow a lot of your quotes and references 'every man is given a measure of faith' where does it says that and how? We know not every man is given any measure of grace which makes faith effective. Not in this lifetime that's why it's grace.

I've always been bothered by the references to our cross by Jesus, we're not Him don't have His stamina and if you don't live in the sort of country your likely to be persecuted in you may have to actively go looking for trouble to follow this one. I thought I'd understood it once but I forgot my understanding since. It's also not the best line for the service of UR. ET apologists like it because they can say it suggest a lifetime of suffering in this world is better than endless lifetimes of the same in the next. I object to it on the ground that it instantaneously kills any reason to be thankful to God. He made us our lives to suffer for our lives, thanks for that(!)

The references to losing the soul are also much better for the ET and ED lot than they are for us. There's no suggestion in the text of getting the soul back again in the references.

The last one is very pertinent though, that goes directly to the point of the other topic I hope to write 'each man according to what he has done' is a very fair term, the way Hell and the judgment tends to be described does not sound as fair.

Though I'm not sure any of that really answers my original question.

   You   should actually look for yourself Chris  , to  test and prove       if anyone  is lying to you ...

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead?  Romans 4:19

(Romans 12:3)'every man is given a measure of faith


As  to sowing seeds of faith , and hoping   to help    anyone at any time    whom can hear what the Spirit  is saying in anyone of us  ,  and move anyone at any time    to change their  minds , but  must  really  want to believe    and be healed  in my opinion .

  Help  me to understand why   so many     are so doubtful ?
  I see this as  still trying to understand God with  carnal mind and   with it no one can  understand   in the death  mindset .



For me the Law of God    has not risen in their hearts yet ...to be carnally mined is death and the dead know nothing about the ways of God


  Romans 8 Living in the Spirit

...5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh;

but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.


6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:

It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....

Quote from: rosered on October 07, 2016, 04:52:32 PM

QuoteCan you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead? Without context I don't know what you're trying to say.

Actually I'm struggling to follow a lot of your quotes and references 'every man is given a measure of faith' where does it says that and how? We know not every man is given any measure of grace which makes faith effective. Not in this lifetime that's why it's grace.

I've always been bothered by the references to our cross by Jesus, we're not Him don't have His stamina and if you don't live in the sort of country your likely to be persecuted in you may have to actively go looking for trouble to follow this one. I thought I'd understood it once but I forgot my understanding since. It's also not the best line for the service of UR. ET apologists like it because they can say it suggest a lifetime of suffering in this world is better than endless lifetimes of the same in the next. I object to it on the ground that it instantaneously kills any reason to be thankful to God. He made us our lives to suffer for our lives, thanks for that(!)

The references to losing the soul are also much better for the ET and ED lot than they are for us. There's no suggestion in the text of getting the soul back again in the references.

The last one is very pertinent though, that goes directly to the point of the other topic I hope to write 'each man according to what he has done' is a very fair term, the way Hell and the judgment tends to be described does not sound as fair.

Though I'm not sure any of that really answers my original question.

   You   should actually look for yourself Chris  , to  test and prove       if anyone  is lying to you ...

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead?  Romans 4:19

(Romans 12:3)'every man is given a measure of faith


As  to sowing seeds of faith , and hoping   to help    anyone at any time    whom can hear what the Spirit  is saying in anyone of us  ,  and move anyone at any time    to change their  minds , but  must  really  want to believe    and be healed  in my opinion .

  Help  me to understand why   so many     are so doubtful ?
  I see this as  still trying to understand God with  carnal mind and   with it no one can  understand   in the death  mindset .



For me the Law of God    has not risen in their hearts yet ...to be carnally mined is death and the dead know nothing about the ways of God


  Romans 8 Living in the Spirit

...5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh;

but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.


6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:

It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....

Why would I imagine you're lying to me?

'And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.'

Punctuation is a pretty important thing. Paul is not saying Abraham considered his body dead in the sense you are suggesting. The point is to all intents and purposes Abraham's body was supposedly past the point it could be expected to produce children and so was Sarah. Paul is simply saying Abraham, being faithful, took no heed of this small obstacle and believed God when Isaac was promised.

So you're not lying, but I think you may have misunderstood the application.

'For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.'

Again, here the phrase 'to everyone who is among you' would seem to limit the phrase 'each one'.

The 'mind of the flesh' here is, it seems entirely about desire and appetite. The mind of the flesh just wants to gorge and gorge and gorge. It's not very constructive, eat too much, drink too much, fornicate too much, we all know if we think about it we were made for more than that. It's just the carnal man never thinks about it.

That's how I understand the passage anyway.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 06, 2016, 10:12:40 AM
God created man innocent, and therefore unaware of certain dynamics of love, like sacrifice for instance. Forgiveness would be another example.

God, imo, wanted a closer relationship with His creation from before the beginning.. to share Himself because He is generous and joyous, to know us and have sweet intimate fellowship because He loves us.

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Ro 8

To me this one verse spans the whole plan of God, and His purpose- all creation as His friends... we were subject to futility, so we could be birthed into harmony and communion in the light.

"No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down His life for His friends"

We call friends those who like us, or we like, but there is a friend who is closer than a brother, with whom you can share anything in life, the deepest things.

So Jesus is the example of the greatest aspect of love, and the result is freindship of the deepest kind possible, union and communion in the harmony, beauty and joy of love.

"But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Cor 4

Light shining out of darkness, Glorious liberty birthed out of futility(chaos).

"In the beginning the earth was without form and void, and the Spirit hovered over the waters"

IMO this is both literal (of primordial creation) and metaphorical(of how God works through chaos, btinging light out of darkness.

We could not know Him, really, without understanding the glory of His love(Christ crucified)- and the power of it.(Christ raised.

We could not know it unless we became of a condition where we could see, personally as individuals and corporately (as the family of creation), what He is measured by what He is not, so...

We passed from innocence to futility and were bound in mortality

"Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.... (Gen 3)

"We know the whole creation travails in childbirth even until now"- macro view

"My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you—" (Gal 4:19)- micro view

The micro view is not lesser, it is the story of the individual building blocks of the new creation- lving stones in a tabernacle for the Spirit of God, that will eventually enfold all creation.

"So we look for a new heavens and a new earth in which dwells righteousness(2 Peter 3)

He destroys hate by contrasting it with love. He destroys the natural man by planting the spiritual man in a soul, a soul full of futility, and bringing that light up out of the darkness(darkness was upon the face of the deep, light will shine out of darkness)

It is often painful, as the natural man breaks down and the spirtual man lives ever more in the image of Christ, laying down his life for his friends, instead of taking it up.... forgiving as Christ forgave, untill all have seen that light and been translatred out of the kingdom of darkness ibto the kingdom of His glorious light.

Its a process never over in this life- and the reward is knowing Him, and loving one another, and loving all.

I'm a bit confused by this. It beautiful in many ways, the original material more so than the scripture quotes in this case. I think that's not really so but the scripture is more involved.

But it seems to start on a strange premise: that because God made man innocent he has no knowledge of x, y, z. Now this seems to me to be a poor understanding of innocence. God is innocent as has all that knowledge so having that knowledge does not inherently oppose innocence they're not mutually exclusive.

I think I understand the main think though, but I could be projecting, God did make man in such a way that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil became attractive to him and had no power or knowledge he could find in himself to understand that he should not eat it, just the instruction which he chose to ignore.

Which may be the point, man wasn't innocent, he was guiltless but he wasn't innocent. This was because until he was put in the position of deciding whether or not to eat from the tree his 'innocence' had no value. Until he was tempted it had never been tested so in some senses innocence actually belongs in the other category, it only means something in a world where people are often guilty of all sorts.

But the main message of your post is perfectly sound and the Bible reduces it to three words: God - is -Love.

I retain bothered by the complete destruction of the natural man, as I alluded to above final destruction seems to conflict with forgiveness and reconciliation. God doesn't seem to need to be reconciled with the spiritual man because he already looks to God, it's the carnal man that is opposed and needs reconciling. I hold forgiveness as so important in my model of salvation I hope to talk more about it on my other topic if I write it but I'll mention one story here.

I saw on a TV discussion show once, a discussion about forgiveness, a woman who's son had been murdered, very sad story. She said she was not prepared to forgive her son's murder and would not do so even if it was required of her to get into Heaven.

And, as sympathetic as I was trying to be, I couldn't help thinking, what, really? Your dead son who you miss haven't been cruelly taken from you is now in Heaven waiting for you and all you have to do is forgive his killer but you won't? You really doing that? Now who's keeping you from your son?

Forgiveness and reconciliation matter, destruction gets in the way... all her stubbornness may have to go in this case but I feel that could be achieved simply by overcoming it with sense. Just a thought.

Quote from: CST on October 07, 2016, 06:47:36 PM

Quote from: rosered on October 07, 2016, 04:52:32 PM

QuoteCan you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead? Without context I don't know what you're trying to say.

Actually I'm struggling to follow a lot of your quotes and references 'every man is given a measure of faith' where does it says that and how? We know not every man is given any measure of grace which makes faith effective. Not in this lifetime that's why it's grace.

I've always been bothered by the references to our cross by Jesus, we're not Him don't have His stamina and if you don't live in the sort of country your likely to be persecuted in you may have to actively go looking for trouble to follow this one. I thought I'd understood it once but I forgot my understanding since. It's also not the best line for the service of UR. ET apologists like it because they can say it suggest a lifetime of suffering in this world is better than endless lifetimes of the same in the next. I object to it on the ground that it instantaneously kills any reason to be thankful to God. He made us our lives to suffer for our lives, thanks for that(!)

The references to losing the soul are also much better for the ET and ED lot than they are for us. There's no suggestion in the text of getting the soul back again in the references.

The last one is very pertinent though, that goes directly to the point of the other topic I hope to write 'each man according to what he has done' is a very fair term, the way Hell and the judgment tends to be described does not sound as fair.

Though I'm not sure any of that really answers my original question.

   You   should actually look for yourself Chris  , to  test and prove       if anyone  is lying to you ...

Can you tell me where it says Abraham reckoned his body as dead?  Romans 4:19

(Romans 12:3)'every man is given a measure of faith


As  to sowing seeds of faith , and hoping   to help    anyone at any time    whom can hear what the Spirit  is saying in anyone of us  ,  and move anyone at any time    to change their  minds , but  must  really  want to believe    and be healed  in my opinion .

  Help  me to understand why   so many     are so doubtful ?
  I see this as  still trying to understand God with  carnal mind and   with it no one can  understand   in the death  mindset .



For me the Law of God    has not risen in their hearts yet ...to be carnally mined is death and the dead know nothing about the ways of God


  Romans 8 Living in the Spirit

...5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh;

but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.


6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God:

It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....

Why would I imagine you're lying to me?

'And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb.'

Punctuation is a pretty important thing. Paul is not saying Abraham considered his body dead in the sense you are suggesting. The point is to all intents and purposes Abraham's body was supposedly past the point it could be expected to produce children and so was Sarah. Paul is simply saying Abraham, being faithful, took no heed of this small obstacle and believed God when Isaac was promised.

So you're not lying, but I think you may have misunderstood the application.

'For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.'

Again, here the phrase 'to everyone who is among you' would seem to limit the phrase 'each one'.

The 'mind of the flesh' here is, it seems entirely about desire and appetite. The mind of the flesh just wants to gorge and gorge and gorge. It's not very constructive, eat too much, drink too much, fornicate too much, we all know if we think about it we were made for more than that. It's just the carnal man never thinks about it.

That's how I understand the passage anyway.

I do see how you are  able to come to these conclusions Chris  ..  I can also see them as the same  understanding .  But you can also see them   by faith in a more Living way   ..

  I do understand one thing   helpful Christ and it is applied to those whom can  hear the Spirit  speaking    to them in that moment   and  being the Word of Life   , quickens  them spiritually  speaking   , and that is how  I am   trying to   interpret the  whole  Bible ....      and treat it as a  LIVING THING  in power ,    with the Breath of Life in it   , being able to revive us all     from the  deadly realm of thoughts and speech and   natural application   of bible verses .

   John 6


62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?


63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing.


The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.


64However, there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)...


Many turned away   ,   when he  said  '' Eat my body and drink my Blood that you  might have Life in you .''....    This is a hard saying for the natural man to understand    it is mostly    ignored and not  given to reason  , because it makes no earthly sense   as to what it is its  true meaning .

  The Sword  / Word of God judges us all   as  a living thing within us    , if it is dead letters  it  will not rise  up in   power and Life     within you ...   two witnesses   the Sword of the Spirit and the Word of the Spirit are one  and the same and yet these two  done everything   in everyone whom had this  anointing of Christ working in them  by the Father    in the WORD it must be a LIVING thing in order   to move us ...     the dead know nothing , because the dead   are still in their graves and are awaiting the Christ to rise up  within them    still

  The outward appearance    of things seems the total opposite  and many  fall and stumble over this SWORD / WORD OF GOD    seeing it as  confusing and contradictory      and never see Jesus coming in the clouds of Glory ...


I know only God can give us these things     no man can , it is always in Gods hands and power   to give Life from the dead ....   

  God bless  and keep you 

  That is  all we can do is speak the truth , none can   do anything against the truth,   but for the Truth     ...

The cross is something that we need the Spirit of God to enable us to understand and carry. For instance, Jesus also said,

"Take my yoke upon you and learn of me for my yoke is easy and my burden is light for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls..."

So  if the cross is hard how is His yoke easy? Because He is in it with us!

If we get the cart before the horse we end up defeated and overwhelmed. "Christ in you the hope of glory" is the secret of the gospel(Colossians 1:27)

Also Jesus was speaking of discipleship. In order to become a disciple one must emulate the person they are being discipled by. Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this- to lay down his life for his friend"

So when Jesus says, "If you would be my disciple you must say no to your "self" pick up your cross daily, and come- follow me"

He speaks of laying down our lives in love for those we serve, as He served.

That is the message of disciples..... "Come follow me..."

It is not about asceticism, and persecution in this country is more intense than a lot of people think- it is just different in form. So....

We are called to walk in humilty and love. That is what the cross is about.

"I live yet not I, but Christ lives through me, and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God...."

The cross is where Jesus unites with me, and empowers me, when I say, essentially- "Ok Lord, I will follow...I will walk in love.... I will say no to my "self" and serve you."

That is the death disciples die in the yoke with Jesus, and they only get worn out when they are pulling in the wrong direction :o)

AMEN   JOHN ,   
  THE CROSS IS ALL ABOUT   ,  Jesus Christ defeating death in us !  He tasted death for every man , that we can   taste Life though Him    ..   :HeartThrob:

I think Adam and Eve, and I guess each one of us when born, are ignorant.. We just "don't know".. so in a sense, at that moment especially, innocent. You see, I get the sense, that because God Himself subjected all to "subjection" (is that the right word?) I think, absolutely, He has had the 'end' result in view from before the beginning, as EW said, and I agree too that He's creating a world and reality of friends. ..."How can two walk together except they agree.." I suppose this means see eye to eye on things'.

When I prayed about all these things and questions about life, I found myself pondering and wondering what it would be like to see things from the beginning, before any act of creation. I actually found myself thinking what would I do..? to create an unbreakable forever paradise perfection? How would it be able to be done?

The next thing was seeing that He surely(?) could see all possibilities stretched out before His sight like an ephemeral blanket stretched out all 360 degrees was how I imagined.

Then, logic would seem to say, or that is, it stands to reason He would do all things from that very point on - in all ways - in such a way as to bring about the best of all possibilities..

The next thing that occurred to me was when He decided/chose to endow thinking ability to angel and man that a whole new world ( or tree) of possibilies came about (because sooner or later, with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices) and He, only able to be honest, there was that tree in the original garden.. The thing is, to me, what are the other options He had?

P.S- I forgot my point! Since God Himself did all this by making the choices He's made, and choosing when each one comes to the truth, He declares us innocent, not about to condemn or lose someone because of His doings and choices. :dontknow: ...seems logical to me.. another, to my mind, proof of UR and UR logic.. :gsmile:

i even think He knows best and chooses best for each one of us, for every psyche. As to when we come to the truth.. (though I still think of election as being a 'lucky' throw of the heavenly dice, so I guess He also formed every psyche...?).

And I'm not sure, but it seems like it should be impossible for anyone to overestimate Him..

I have a sneaky suspicion that when all is said and done, we may find that the lowest depths the carnal psyche can go to, is in each and every one of us... given the 'right' circumstances, history, etc. That the proverbial bottomless pit is within every and any im-perfect (thinking) creature. That it was only He, who decided how far in each case to let it flow.. And that we'll find in the 'end' that truth has been proven at every avenue and angle. That this all (human history,etc) will be THE perfect - for all age unto ages - truth proving, to all, tapestry. Nailing everything into place. His blueprint fully fulfilled in every creature individual and collect.. The full danger (and horror) of imperfection being fully driven home.

After all? He can only be perfect, surely? Or He too would fade, wouldn't He? But of course that would be impossible.. that He would be imperfect. :smile:

We humans may want to believe He could have merely waved a magic wand and made all things perfect and not able to stray from perfection no way, no how in any quarter any where.. but wouldn't that then make His "friends" to be forever children? :dontknow: how could rationality be endowed without letting it run its course?

I wonder, not for the sake of disagreement, but rather for the sake of another view of God, who reveals Himself as I AM THAT I AM.

Personally, as a God of being, I think He is more like us(since we were created in His image) than like this great mentality, forseeing every possibility and forecasting each possible end from each possible act.

I think He wouldnt care to be bothered with all that, and while I do believe He knows the end from the beginning, Peter says we are predestined according to the foreknowledge of God, who, from His vantage point, perhaps saw everything in one instant- but then what fun would it be for Him?

Is God invested in the present at all? I think of course He is, and for this reason we pray for His involvement in our lives and world- not as if all is a forgone conclusion, yet some would have us to believe everything is already a foregone conclusion, and I find this nearly as soul-less as hellism.

There are things God has set in stone, so to speak. When we reach the end of our road every human will see that they were loved. The sign of the son of man appearing in the heavens is(imo) Christ crucified displayed before every conscious being of all time when, "the veil of the heavens is rent".... every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him"

"As Moses lifted up the serpent on a stick, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me."

The sting of sin is death, and Christ crucified disarms sin AND death. He disarmed the principalities and powers making an open display of them(Col). We have a wisdom, the hidden wisdom of the mature, that the principalities and powers did not understand or they would not hav crucified Him(1 Cor 2)- Christ crucified, "I am determined to know nothing among you but Christ crucified". It is the center/seed of everything- especially the salvation of all.

Anyway, the friendship God has in mind is heart to heart, "lay down your life" kind of love, I think- something that transcends knowledge,

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways....1 Cor 13

Now we are children, with our knowledge and our incompleteness. The issue of that which is "incomplete" will be replaced by that which is complete when God is all in all, and that which is perfect is love, and there is no greater love than to lay down ones life for ones friends.

The closer we get to being in the all in all the more the desire to love transcends the desire to "know", and true maturity is deeper in love and that is the "true knowledge of God"- not whether He is a trinity or not, or whether He plans every little thing or not, because in the Moment, in the Twinkling of an eye, in the Now where He dwells in unapproachable light, all is permeated by love, and according to Paul this is the goal of our faith- love from a pure heart.

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Eph 3:14-19

Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

Ask God to do more than we can ask or think ;o), I think ,would be to ask Him to so empower love in us that the salvation of all would become common knowledge- the gospel proclaimed unto every creature in heaven and earth.

:dsunny: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:MAY THE LIGHT SHINE IN THE  darkness , 1John 5 The Beginning!


...4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

  Overcome the darkness [evil   ]by the Light of His life/LOVE  working  forgiveness , healing and  wholeness  of the SPIRIT OF GOD  within  us all ............. :icon_flower:

Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2016, 07:10:00 AM
...so empower love in us that the salvation of all would become common knowledge- the gospel proclaimed unto every creature in heaven and earth.

...the friendship God has in mind is heart to heart

Amen!!

You are very right! all things will fade and love will be what will remain! ..but my mind doesn't easily separate knowing from being,
though of course what we know is so very very limited :laughing7:
We may all differ, but Jesus is the (oh dang it! I can't think of the word!) ..is the prototype! :thumbsup:

Quote from: marie glen on October 10, 2016, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2016, 07:10:00 AM
...so empower love in us that the salvation of all would become common knowledge- the gospel proclaimed unto every creature in heaven and earth.

...the friendship God has in mind is heart to heart

Amen!!

You are very right! all things will fade and love will be what will remain! ..but my mind doesn't easily separate knowing from being,
though of course what we know is so very very limited :laughing7:
We may all differ, but Jesus is the (oh dang it! I can't think of the word!) ..is the prototype! :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: