Why Would God Create Billions to Burn?

[eaglesway]

"Why would God create this world if he knew he was going to torment most of his creation in molten hot lava for eternity?"

I honestly believe that simple question.... "Why" is one of the most powerful arguments for Biblical universalism. Why would God create such a horrifc scenario?... and is so....Why would anyone want to serve such a God?

Clearly it would only be fear or an inability to recognize the implications of such a dicotomy. A God who would conceive such a plan as this is deeply conflicted and twisted- narcissistic in the uttermost. Indifferent to the eternal torment of billions so that he can have his little hand-picked club of worshippers.

The Savior sent to die for that little club, would surely be depressed forever, knowing that altho He came to save, He failed miserably on a quantitative level. The idea that the enduring shame and horror of that failure and its consequences would not affect us as the "survivors of God's decimated creation"- because God would either 1) shield us from the awareness of it or b) cause us not to care about it- has a multitude of insidious logical conclusions tied to it- about the nature of God and what knowing Him creates in us.

YIKES!

A horrifying paradigm from a logical perspective, from a philosophical perspective and from a spritual perspective- and as far from reality as the flat earth theory is from the universe that really exists.

[jugghead]

OK EW, I will play the devil's advocate:

The reason hell was created is because men have to suffer the consequences of their disobedience to God;

God can't allow it. It's like saying they can do what ever they want and get away with it.

[eaglesway]

OK EW, I will play the devil's advocate:

The reason hell was created is because men have to suffer the consequences of their disobedience to God;

God can't allow it. It's like saying they can do what ever they want and get away with it.

Ok- I'm your huckleberry :o)

We can't have it both ways. We say that God knows all things.

"I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." Isaiah 46:10

If He knew, before He created the world, that most people would choose not to receive Jesus- we still have a dilema. God's divine nature is satisfied to endure the screams of masses of beings in torment forever. His plan took this into account - and He was satisfied with it. What an indifferent unfeeling God. And what an impotent, incompetent plan.

Since God empowers all that exists- we have to accept that throughout all eternity He is directly tormenting the damned. What a twisted God.

While we accept that men are responsible for their disobedience, and that the disobedience of some men is extreme in the uttermost and desrving of damnation(Hitler, pedophiles, etc.)....this God is also going to torment the larger portion of mankind- guilty simply of unbelief or wrong belief or existing in the wrong space in time - forever also. If God must punish a person forever for not believing in Jesus in this life, how is He just? Surely the punishment exceeds the crime, a consideration that the Law of Moses, which came from God, grants commensurate punishment to all. Also being tormented forever- is being tormented forever. The idea that the extremely wicked will suffer "hotter flames", does not represent punishment moderated to the offense, because the bottom line is- forever is forever. A vindictive autocratic God.

Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery. Yet, the doctrine eternal torment proposes that all the other adultresses, who were not fortunate enough to meet Jesus within the tiny spectrum of 3 years of ministry in a tiny little portion of the world, must suffer forever because God "cannot" forgive anyone past the boundaries of mortal life. If this is so then God is responsible to have made sure that everyone in life met with Jesus or a proper representative of His(a disciple of Christ)- but He did not. An arbitrary, unjust God.

If someone believes God chose the elect to believe- they must believe God chose the rest to be cursed forever- the lie of Calvinism. God becomes like the fickle gods of the Greeks and Romans and Egyptians.

If someone believes God created men with a totally free will, but placed them on the earth and allowed them to complete their lives without ensuring that they would receive sufficient input to make the correct choice, they must believe it is up to man to discover Jesus even when and where Jesus has never been proclaimed. An obvious indictment of purposeful injustice on God's behalf.

If God makes exceptions, at the judgment seat ,for those who never heard the gospel, for children, for the severely mentally handi-capped, for infants, or for some vague "age of accountability"- then why can He not receive the repentance of a properly chastised soul who has finally bowed their knee in the lake of fire..... If God is able to do that, and many scriptures indicate that He can and will, He has accomplished both. He has made man accountable for his actions and yet still fulfilled the words of His Son....

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"(Jn 12:32) and

"Behold, I am making all things new- Write, for these words are faithful and true!"(Rev 21:5)

Suddenly, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"(Phil 2), begins to make sense.

"As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"(1 Cor 15) begins to make sense.

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved."(Romans 11) begins to make sense!

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.(Rom 11) Begins to make sense!

All of these verses and many more I could list here begin to make perfect sense when we realize that the judgment of God(punishment), brings men to the justice of God(repentence), because of the mercy of God(forgiveness) which has brought the healing of God(transformation).

From that point of view all these verses begin to make sense, and a just, wise and merciful God who would send His Son to save the world,
in such power and glory that eventually the whole creation will be restored(Acts 3:19-21; Rom 8:14-23)- not mostly left in agony forever.

"He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." Eph. 1

Wow, all those verses make sense now! :o)

[Shev]

The problems with God being unendingly cruel are further highlighted by the example of children and babies. If ceaseless hell is true in any form, it follows that He will torment babies and children for ever and ever, unless one invents something about an "age of accountability", which many do to avoid the harsh logical ending point of their beliefs. But we know that ONLY those who are born from above can enter the kingdom, so how could babies and children that died young suddenly be mature in Christ without repentance, refinement and the various dealings of the Spirit? This is just one example of the myriad problems endemic of a ceaseless hell.

Ultimately, I believe in God Himself and His loving nature more than I believe in my own interpretation of scripture. He IS Love, and He has revealed what love is. He has revealed His nature fully in Christ, and is developing it in all of us. Ceaseless cruelty is not being developed in us, and the Spirit within us is not teaching us to gnash our teeth in a rage at those who oppose us.

[micah7:9]

The problems with God being unendingly cruel are further highlighted by the example of children and babies. If ceaseless hell is true in any form, it follows that He will torment babies and children for ever and ever, unless one invents something about an "age of accountability", which many do to avoid the harsh logical ending point of their beliefs. But we know that ONLY those who are born from above can enter the kingdom, so how could babies and children that died young suddenly be mature in Christ without repentance, refinement and the various dealings of the Spirit? This is just one example of the myriad problems endemic of a ceaseless hell.

Ultimately, I believe in God Himself and His loving nature more than I believe in my own interpretation of scripture. He IS Love, and He has revealed what love is. He has revealed His nature fully in Christ, and is developing it in all of us. Ceaseless cruelty is not being developed in us, and the Spirit within us is not teaching us to gnash our teeth in a rage at those who oppose us.

:Peace2:

[Lazarus Short]

I well remember, during my SDA days, reading in Ellen White's works that the redeemed would look on the cursed dead without sympathy. :doh:

[jugghead]

"I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." Isaiah 46:10

And the DA says:
You said it yourself here, "I made known the end from the beginning" death came to Adam at the beginning and that is what is still to come for them. God is God, "I will do all that I please", if He wants to throw evil men in the Lake of Fire (into death), it doesn't matter what you or I believe, He will do it.
(NOTE from Jugghead: I actually said this to my son when I was in the bondage of the church.)

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"(Jn 12:32)

And the DA says:
Yes, I agree ..... for the White thrown Judgment that will send them to hell

"Behold, I am making all things new- Write, for these words are faithful and true!"(Rev 21:5)

And the DA says:
But you are taking that out of context, the reason there will be no more tears and the end of death (Rev 21:4) is because there will no longer be any evil men around to do these things, they won't be in heaven, they will be in hell

"Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"(Phil 2)

And the DA says:
They will bow on their knees and confess because they will know that they should have believed in Him while they were alive

"As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"(1 Cor 15)

And the DA says:
Yes, because all will know who are the goats and who are the sheep and this can't happen unless all are made alive.

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved."(Romans 11)

And the DA says:
It is now out of the Gentiles that believers come and Israel is now a representation of believers, all believers will be saved

(NOTE from Jugghead: You know I could on and on with every verse you quoted, because you know they have an answer for everything, and a devout ETer would have included Scripture to back what He believes)

And on a side note from me, they drink of the water (spirit) of the land (word) of Egypt (world), the words out of our mouths are like blood of which they cannot drink (unlawful for them to drink blood), therefore like the frogs they must get out of that river (Spirit) that flows from us. from the thrown of God of which we share ...... our words are like flies that they try to slap away with their hands (their actions of a counter attack) and they close their eyes and plug their ears so those flies (our words) do not get inside of them, because in their mind ... they carry a disease, in our mind they are the plagues sent upon the land (word) of Egypt (world) (Rev 22:18) ....... if they would drink of the blood of Christ (the Spirit of our words) then the first born (word of the world) would die and they would be partaking of communion and know that He saves the best wine for last

[marie glen]

WhAt!!?? No "flat earth"!? :laughing7:

The more we consider this doctrine (hell, not 'flat earth' :laughing7: ) the more outrageous we see it as being. I think one of the things we hear most in support of it is how it's all due to what a person chooses.. God cannot or will not interfere with that.. oh dear, He is just powerless to do anything about it - impotent, I guess we would call that.. surely not All POWERful and All-mighty!

Or worse, He could do something about it of course, but He's unwilling to interfere in ppl's choice, should they not 'choose' Him (sometime during their life even if they've never heard of Jesus). Better to let them be tormented forever and ever..

I well remember, during my SDA days, reading in Ellen White's works that the redeemed would look on the cursed dead without sympathy. :doh:

   :faint: just warms the heart doesn't it...

[marie glen]

.......I thought.. what is DA? district attorney? no..  :doh: oh yes! devil's advocate! which in this case? ..spiritual district attorney?

And the DA says:

(NOTE from Jugghead: You know I could on and on with every verse you quoted, because you know they have an answer for everything, and a devout ETer would have included Scripture to back what He believes)

Sadly, so true.. but all the answers are so very lacking in logic... "God is love" .."your Father in heaven is perfect.." .."light and no darkness at all" .."all mighty"

but, He will lose billions.. and worse yet, they shall live on in a pool full of bodies and souls writhing and melting in intense tormenting heat.. did i mention forever and ever? with no relief in sight, ever.

I can understand ppl throughout the ages, if they've suffered miserably under despots, etc.. getting comfort in the thought of God's revenge upon the evildoers, but still, that the doctrine should have such a strong hold.. is crazy.. (Sorry, but it's not quite right in the head. Though we can hate the sin - "missing the mark" - of this evil doctrine, and still love the sinner.. 'but for the grace of God, there go, silly, I!' :eek: & shudder.)

Why Would God Create Billions to Burn? ..why because He just couldn't do any better..! :doh: (as if!!)

[jugghead]

Was wondering if someone would say something about DA ...... besides, whats the difference they are both "interpreters of the law"

[eaglesway]

Yes. Anyone can "push their point" with scripture taken out of context but, the Holy Spirit is not bearing witness to their words. Since He has come to lead us and guide us into all truth- we can proclaim it in love and trust Him to convince. If He finds no room in their hearts then there is nothing we can do but pray and remain faithful to the testimony.

[Dandelion]

This is the scenario I picture......

God, shutting the door, while his creations writhe in torment. Then I try to picture shutting the door on my own children. No, please, Mom.....don't leave us here. And I saying, Goodbye A. and M. I won't see you ever again. My heart screams out, if I try to imagine this. My dear, sweet children, whom I held as babies, and fed and played with and watched movies with......and to say goodbye, knowing I left them in pain and suffering forever......a worst nightmare I cannot imagine.

Luke 11:

5Then Jesus said to them, "Suppose one of you goes to his friend at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6because a friend of mine has come to me on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.'

7And the one inside answers, 'Do not bother me. My door is already shut and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up to give you anything.'

8I tell you, even though he will not get up to provide for him because of his friendship, yet because of the man's persistence, he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

9So I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

11What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

So, how could God shut the door on those who are in torment. Surely they would ask for forgiveness and assistance. Would he shut the door? Is that the God we know?

And it is not what God put in my heart towards others. So, how can He do what He has taught me not to do?

D.

[quincyjr]

Respectfully suggest reading two books I found very interesting. Terra Firma, David Wardlaw Scott and
Zetetic Astronomy by Samuel Rowbotham.

[marie glen]

This is the scenario I picture......

God, shutting the door, while his creations writhe in torment. Then I try to picture shutting the door on my own children. No, please, Mom.....don't leave us here. And I saying, Goodbye A. and M. I won't see you ever again. My heart screams out, if I try to imagine this. My dear, sweet children, whom I held as babies, and fed and played with and watched movies with......and to say goodbye, knowing I left them in pain and suffering forever......a worst nightmare I cannot imagine.

Luke 11:

5Then Jesus said to them, "Suppose one of you goes to his friend at midnight and says, 'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6because a friend of mine has come to me on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.'

7And the one inside answers, 'Do not bother me. My door is already shut and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up to give you anything.'

8I tell you, even though he will not get up to provide for him because of his friendship, yet because of the man's persistence, he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

9So I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

11What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

So, how could God shut the door on those who are in torment. Surely they would ask for forgiveness and assistance. Would he shut the door? Is that the God we know?

And it is not what God put in my heart towards others. So, how can He do what He has taught me not to do?

D.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The more I think about it (prayerfully I hope!) the more I think this whole thing is a love story. And in the 'end' when God's blueprint is fully manifest everywhere, I don't believe there will be one person/creature/being who will be disappointed or 'left out' in any way. I believe the 'lake of fire' is a potential.. was "made for the devil and his angels" and worse case scenario, for any totally stubborn hard cases - not able to repent during DOJ, even then the purifying is of a duration and not 'forever'. But I believe the 'day' of judgment to be an age. Great White Throne age, represented or symbolized by Israel's Day of Atonement (Lev 23). (In between Trumpets and Tabernacles; between Jesus' return/millennium and God's making all things new, when death is vanquished and God will now "Tabernacle" with man upon Earth.)

The love story being wandering humanity (sped along by serpent&co) which will perish if not for the intervention of the Loving Father. I can't help noting how the child, in the prodigal son parable, who squandered his inheritance in riotous living until he was in the pen with the pigs, how the Father watched for him daily and ran and kissed him when finally he saw the child returning.

Just the other day I read a verse which said something about the downward progress of the unredeemed heart.. Without His Great Plan of Salvation all would progress downward and all would also perish. That God chose some to believe and follow now, and others later, I believe is simply for the sake of the drama. And I don't expect God to deal any more harshly with those who have "died still in their sins" and not yet "in Jesus" than He has dealt with any of us. It's on day of judgment that I believe there shall be weeping, gnashing of teeth and even, for some, degrees of outer darkness.. the more they abused others, the more weeping and gnashing.. and outer darkness..

But in order for the drama to be complete - for God to FULLY prove His case - all degrees of evil doing and abuses have to be examined.. It may be enough when the child is very small to say don't touch the hot stove.. but maturity will require, I believe, the full understanding of "don't go that way" -- wander away from God the source of all life and all goodness -- remember what a total horror and nightmare that way is??

"In the world" (imperfect, flawed) "you will have tribulation.." - "tribulum" originally - a threshing machine.. But the love story.. There is humanity perched upon the cliff.. doomed to fall over the cliff and into the pit and perish.. But wait! The rescuer comes swooping in - God is love, love never, ever, fails - and we are all saved! ..but behind us, the smoke of apocalypse (utter failure) which smoke - remembrance of? lesson of? shall rise up for ever and ever.. (age to age) [The burning of Sodom & cities is the example. Flame there now? Even smoke? Yet the smoke rises up for ever and ever..]

One reason I suspect none(?) shall go to the lake of fire is because those two in Rev 19 who are cast there "alive" at Jesus' return, I believe are not persons, but institutions of man "active" at the time of His return..

I believe it's a total love story.. for all. That were He not to allow 'choice' to run its course, we could never have the precious gift of being thinking, rational creatures.. I could be happy being a worm in His kingdom.. as long as I was able to think..

[Cristina100]

God does not want any one to burn,but ancient theologians invented this doctrine of "Turn or burn" which seems wrong.

[darryl]

good question...also begs the question, why keep creating them ?.

[Lazarus Short]

Genesis 1:1 records God creating ONLY the heaven and the earth.  The first chapter of the Gospel of John backs it up, and adds that if God didn't do it, then no one else did either.  Jesus confirmed it with "If it were not so, I would have told you."

Hell is a 404.

[darryl]

Genesis 1:1 records God creating ONLY the heaven and the earth.  The first chapter of the Gospel of John backs it up, and adds that if God didn't do it, then no one else did either.  Jesus confirmed it with "If it were not so, I would have told you."

Hell is a 404.

playing the D/A here..so, not so fast..what of the 'everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels' ?...

[eaglesway]

Well mister DA ;o) Our God is a consuming fire. He burns the chaff with unquenchable fire, and gathers the wheat into His barn. Every man will be salted with fire. Every grain of wheat is a seed covered with chaff. The chaff is beaten off, separated and burned up, the seed remains to be gathered.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him Eph 1:10,11

[jugghead]

Personification!!!

The Father personified His word and called it His Son

The everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels is another way of saying

God's Holy Spirit is prepared for the carnal mind and his thoughts

[darryl]

 :thumbsup:

Well mister DA ;o) Our God is a consuming fire. He burns the chaff with unquenchable fire, and gathers the wheat into His barn. Every man will be salted with fire. Every grain of wheat is a seed covered with chaff. The chaff is beaten off, separated and burned up, the seed remains to be gathered.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him Eph 1:10,11

:thumbsup:

[darryl]

Personification!!!

The Father personified His word and called it His Son

The everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels is another way of saying

God's Holy Spirit is prepared for the carnal mind and his thoughts

interesting..

[Patinak]

Personification!!!

The Father personified His word and called it His Son

The everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels is another way of saying

God's Holy Spirit is prepared for the carnal mind and his thoughts

interesting..

[sheila]

man of sin/son of perdition/lawless one..as adversary..and personification in 'sinner men/corrupt image..bearing his likeness/image/character

in opposition and enmity to God. Isaaih 37;28  But I know thy abode,and thy going out and thy coming in,and thy RAGE against me.


     Jesus..knowing what was in man.......knowing their thoughts/knowing their imaginations,knowing this,knowing their wickedness....

...it appears satan/adversary personified his lies/nature and 'come in flesh" too....even man in the corrupt image...son of perdition.

[eaglesway]

Personification!!!

The Father personified His word and called it His Son

The everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels is another way of saying

God's Holy Spirit is prepared for the carnal mind and his thoughts

Exactly. The fire consumes until only that which will shine in it remains. He is the fire of all consuming love. When He is all in all, all will be shining in the love of God. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the sufficiency may be shown to be of God. But that which is earthly will we transformed into that which is heavenly- that which dwells in the presence of the all consuming fire.

You were the anointed cherub who covers,
         And I placed you there.
         You were on the holy mountain of God;
         You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15"You were blameless in your ways
         From the day you were created
         Until unrighteousness was found in you.

It is interesting that a sword of fire was placed at the gate of Eden. I personally believe this gate and the sword that guards it is described in James 3:13-17(among many places)

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

"Blessed is the man whose delight is in the law of the Lord. He meditates in in day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by the streams of water, bearing fruit in season and and the leaf does not whither" Psalm 2

"The Lord has given me the tongue of the discipled, that I might speak a word in season to the weary one."

"7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." rev 2

The flaming sword that keeps us out of the garden is the spirit of the word, or the sword of the spirit.

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Heb 4

Until we are penetrated by the sword(Let there be light) we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven- righteouness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. The kingdom of heaven is within. "God dwells in the high and holy place and with Him who is of a broken and a contrite heart".

"A broken and a contrite heart you will never cast out"

"Through your widespread trade
    you were filled with violence,
    and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
    and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
    from among the fiery stones."

What is this? Being expelled from among the fiery stones is a bad thing? To dwell within the fire is good, once the worms have consumed the flesh, and the fire has consumed the worms.

But reject foolish and ignorant speculation, for you know that it breeds quarreling. 24And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.... 2 Tim 2