The idea that God, being all-powerful and all knowing, would create a world and populate it with beings that he supposedly loves- but has predestined them to fail in the great majority and spend eternity writhing in torment in hell, is an abhorrent idea....even to most of those who believe it.
The idea that God would so value free will in His creations that He would allow them to choose to reject Him, with a consequence of spending an eternity in torment in hell, and watch as a majority of them do so, is just as abhorrent, and implies that God somehow created them awry, seeing that so many would choose such a fate.
In either case this God would seem to be of a nature so callous as to be an idol of His own harshness and indifference to what he had created. His poor result making a mockery of the value of His love, and exposing the impotence of the power of the cross of Jesus Christ, through which He supposedly expressed the greatness of His love for all mankind in its purest form.
Yet those two philosophies govern the majority of theologians in contemporary Christianity. Somehow, for them, the words, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me" did not really mean what they said, even though they were spoken by the Lord and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
The one who said, "Behold, I am making all things new" was apparently given to making statements both before and after His death, burial and resurrection, that could not be relied upon as factual or as actual prophecy. They were merely platitudes of His best intentions that would go unfulfilled. Desires that He shared with His Father that were predetermined to fail, either because of the power God had delivered into the will of man, or because He never intended for most people to taste the beauty of eternal life anyway.
Such reasoning is absolutely unavoidable within the philosophy of mainstream Christianity today, and it is a large reason why, in a thinking world, Christianity is losing its meaning- and losing its appeal.
Who wants to worship such a God?
But what of Jesus words? "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing." "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." "Behold, I am making all things new."
While so many Christians use the inerrancy of the Bible as justification (for views that must in some measure be in error since they disagree with one another on so many issues of doctrine, practice and faith) one must ask, "How could Jesus be in such error, or be so naïve, or be so reckless in His language?"
In every other case we would say, "If the Lord says "ALL" it is "ALL"- until He says, "I will draw all men unto me"... or "Behold(see, understand), I am making all things new".
Yet one of His apostles, Paul, from whom most of modern doctrine is drawn, and whose words are sprinkled like holy salt upon every theological paper or book, took Jesus at His word- even tho he is not credited for doing so.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1 Cor 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Phil 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
While we have been taught that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord- just before they are cast into hell to be destroyed or to suffer eternal punishment, Paul did not seem to explain himself in that way. According to the first three portions of scripture Paul saw "all things gathered into one in Christ"; "all things reconciled to Himself by the blood of His cross"; and every adversary subjected to Him, "that God may be all in all".
In Ephesians 1 Paul equates this with, "the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure(kind intention NAS) which he has purposed in himself".
God's will as a kind intention? The dispensation(administration) of the fulness(completion) of times gathering "all things into one in Christ"?
Apparently Paul took Jesus at His word, that He is making "all things new", and that by the blood of His cross(If I am lifted up) He is reconciling all things- drawing all men to Himself.
Paul does say it is a mystery....Yet he also says it is a mystery that has been revealed, and before you close your mind to the idea that when time is complete, and the ages of God's plan for man are fulfilled- all will be reconciled and made new, consider these words written by Paul.
Rom 11:32-36
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
God created all things. All things came into being through Jesus Christ. According to Jesus and Paul, all things are being gathered back into God, and God shall be all in all-even those who were once His adversaries. But that ought not surprise us. We were once all His adversaries.
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
"And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach"
And Paul says every adversary will be subjected, and God will be all in all.
"Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." (Col 1:21)
"...every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
"For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
Perhaps what we will be doing in the ages to come is not watching our adversaries burn in hell forever, but rather- gathering all things into one in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Paul, in Romans 8, speaks of the whole creation eagerly awaiting our resurrection, and the resulting liberation of the entire creation from futility/corruption..
Romans 8:18-22
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
Peter, preaching on the day of Pentecost, the birth of the true church, the body of Christ, also connects this restoration of all things to a period of time after the second advent, the return of Jesus Christ(who will come in the clouds with ten thousands of ten thousands of His holy ones).
Acts 3:19-21
Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Paul called this the mystery of the gospel.
Rom 16:25-27
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
Did God create this world, and billions of souls who have lived on it throughout the ages, and billions more who will live on it in ages to come, only to torment most of them forever, or destroy them from being at all.
Why would He conceive such a futile plan?
And how could the word of God be true?
"....I will draw all men unto me". "...I am making all things new". "....gathering together of all things into one in Christ" ".....that God may be all in all".
If there is an alternative to this horrible philosophy it ought to be examined, and not because it is to be desired- but because the scriptures of the apostles and the prophets give voice to a larger, more reasonable and compassionate vision for God's "kind intention" for the world, which He "purposed in Himself" for the ages.
These verses in Revelation 5 look like the fulfillment of Phil 2:9-11 to me.
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
:dsunny:
Beautiful, in every way......what this says, and how it is said. Thank you, EW!
:dsunny:
Honestly, the more I ponder it, most or perhaps almost all the people I know, seem to rather enjoy the thought of Hell. Seems to me they want to know "the bad guys" get their punishment. It seems to feed into peoples' justification for revenge and the 'them and us' concept. Most people seem to believe that there will be no incentive to live a 'good life' without Hell. They seem to enjoy thinking that people go there, because they don't accept God......that those people will just never be 'good enough'.
And, that, is perhaps one of the surest ways to know that UR is of God, and Hell is of man. When people like the idea a lot, it usually is not of God.
And that is why the many scriptures pointing to it, are ignored, perhaps. Things usually go on, the way they do, because, despite what people say, there is something there that they want to perpetuate.
No one I know has ever said to me how horrible Hell is, or how terrible it is for people to have to go there. In fact, many people tell me who they know that are going to Hell, with a smile on their face. Some have told me I am going there.....seriously. I don't consider myself a likely candidate. And, I know lots and lots of Christians, many in prominent places. I have heard many a preacher expound on how much God loves us, and then in the next breathe, say that many are going to Hell, with not a whince.
Hopefully you know nicer people than I do, EW. And, the rest of you all nice folks, too. :gsmile:
Says, Me. :2c:
:cloud9: :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:
Yes! Absolutely!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny: No doubt about it.. the whole thing is waay illogical.. and I think of it as blasphemy against His holy and pure nature!! And the Word of God does noT support it.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 17, 2015, 07:26:25 PM
abhorrent
- it's amazing how (we) human beings don't think things through. "Abhorrent" is right on and one would think it to be quite obvious to any rational creature!
Quote from: eaglesway on August 17, 2015, 07:26:25 PM
platitudes of His best intentions
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: another nail hit on the head..
Quote from: eaglesway on August 17, 2015, 07:26:25 PM
Rom 11:32-36
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."
:banana: :dsunny: :cloud9:
I may come back and read this post yet again!!
The bedrock of life and creation is relationship (another universal r).
Quote from: Dandelion on August 17, 2015, 10:46:03 PM
Beautiful, in every way......what this says, and how it is said. Thank you, EW!
:dsunny:
Honestly, the more I ponder it, most or perhaps almost all the people I know, seem to rather enjoy the thought of Hell. Seems to me they want to know "the bad guys" get their punishment. It seems to feed into peoples' justification for revenge and the 'them and us' concept. Most people seem to believe that there will be no incentive to live a 'good life' without Hell. They seem to enjoy thinking that people go there, because they don't accept God......that those people will just never be 'good enough'.
And, that, is perhaps one of the surest ways to know that UR is of God, and Hell is of man...
I've wondered about this.. (kinda sad ain't it?! that ppl don't easily "abhor" and see through this idea! :smile: )
For the great criminals of human history - it's amazing/shocking how many ppl have lived under oppressive and, or cruel despots,etc. - for the great workers of evil, I can see how it's a comfort to think they will suffer for their deeds.
But I think that will occur, for they "die in their sins" so they will rise (be resurrected) in their sins/flaws/imperfection, and the pure, penetrating light of His purity and utter goodness (100%) will be as a very glaring thing.. "there will be weeping" and for some even, "gnashing of teeth".. I believe this happens on a(the) long 'day' of judgment of all things, and history.. And for some no more 'harsh' than what we present believers go through at our convincing..
"Our God is a consuming fire.."
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Short version:
GOD DON'T MAKE NO JUNK.
Quite glaring indeed. :o)
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations....
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/81/f7/c3/81f7c3ca8378f43e1da8dfdeb7252523.jpg)
Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2015, 05:09:25 PM
Quite glaring indeed. :o)
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.…
Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny: He is perfect, how can the 'end' result within any, be anything less than perfect? And how can His creation/design/reality/what He is creating? be anything less than perfect? Or, anything less than the best possibility possible??
..."behold ..all good.." or that is.. "behold, it was all good." (...but not finished?)
The most disturbing thing about all of this is that no one can agree. Everyone has their own Theology.
I am in absolute disgust about religion right now. I said the sinners prayer in 2010, to invite the Lord Jesus into my heart. Yet, I would go to church, sit back and listen to people say my daughter is going to hell. I struggled with hell doctrine for years, spent time weeping over my daughter who is lesbian. I find no comfort in anyone going to hell or being punished.....period. Furthermore, I find that most people when they find "truth" are always so sure about themselves being chosen, while others are the ones "lost." That their religion is the only way. No one has ever been saved by religion. I just enjoy loving God and others. That is enough. I also find it devastating that the millions of people who were killed in the holocaust will not be in heaven, being since most were Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Homosexuals, etc. But according to hell believers, it seems to be the popular statement of, "we really don't know because we don't know what happened the last moments of their life." I don't care what anyone has done, I believe everyone should get a chance. I even think about people who don't believe in God who are more loving than people who claim they do. So, what happens to the hell believers, do they as well go through the refining process? Do the ones who don't believe hell, believe that they are avoiding the refining process? Or are among the elite? I don't know....Maybe I just want to vent.
I have been questioning so much! If I spoke of UR I would be deemed a heretic. Feeling pretty much alone in this. So, I feel very blessed by this site.
Thank you for reading my post,
Jessica
It helps me to see that God sees everyone as His family and we can understand that because we also have families. Would we ever burn any of our kids in fire forever? Of course not. You love your daughter and so does her heavenly Father and he would never treat her that way either. You can rest assured she is in very good hands with a Father like that and He knows just how to remove the bad things from her and all of us.
As far as being a chosen one, He hasn't chosen anyone to burn forever. In the old testament Israel was a chosen nation. Under the new covenant, I believe there are some chosen out of the world to be firstfruits like Israel was back then. They are chosen for some special purpose, but everyone else is not chosen for burning.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we
might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. ...
Rev.14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Being chosen as firstfruit just means more fruit is coming later as any farmer knows. I don't pretend to know that I am included in that chosen group but if not He has nothing but good intentions for us all. And we don't even want to avoid the refining process because that is what cleans out the garbage we all carry around.
beautiful post!
Absolutely! And I'm very glad I wandered in here and read it!
jmanning78 / Jessica just left the one post.. But good to hear tentmaker blessed her.. and helped a little! :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on January 06, 2016, 04:24:49 AM
Absolutely! And I'm very glad I wandered in here and read it!
jmanning78 / Jessica just left the one post.. But good to hear tentmaker blessed her.. and helped a little! :smile:
:thumbsup: Marie :HeartThrob:
Welcome Jessica !!
Folks are looking for acceptance from God , and not sure how to find God , they believe surly He dwells with HIS PEOPLE ,,right :dontknow:
UR is one example of many religious branches of a TREE /law
Folks are hungering and thirsting and perishing in a dry , dry barren land , '' world burning ''with its lusts and desires and power and fame knowledge etc...
They are searching for the TREE OF LIFE , where true righteousness dwells ..
Where they can eat the fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT and live ...
Be loved and feel accepted sins and all , there is nothing worse than being beaten to death over sin that you have no control over .........
Exposing sin is a good thing the Law /tree does kills us ! , but it is not the end of it ,,, The Tree /Law of LIFE Love is what restores and brings back to life from the dead
This is the message from the beginning LOVE GOD , for God is Love , we cannot heal ourselves We need JESUS CHRIST is His name , there is no name under heaven by which you MUST be saved ! HIS BODY HEALS the sick and brings back to life again from the dead and cast out wickedness .. eat my Body and drink my blood that you may have LIFE in you .. ... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on January 06, 2016, 12:52:31 PM
Quote from: marie glen on January 06, 2016, 04:24:49 AM
Absolutely! And I'm very glad I wandered in here and read it!
jmanning78 / Jessica just left the one post.. But good to hear tentmaker blessed her.. and helped a little! :smile:
:thumbsup: Marie :HeartThrob:
Welcome Jessica !!
Folks are looking for acceptance from God , and not sure how to find God , they believe surly He dwells with HIS PEOPLE ,,right :dontknow:
UR is one example of many religious branches of a TREE /law
Folks are hungering and thirsting and perishing in a dry , dry barren land , " world burning "with its lusts and desires and power and fame knowledge etc...
They are searching for the TREE OF LIFE , where true righteousness dwells ..
Where they can eat the fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT and live ...
Be loved and feel accepted sins and all , there is nothing worse than being beaten to death over sin that you have no control over .........
Exposing sin is a good thing the Law /tree does kills us ! , but it is not the end of it ,,, The Tree /Law of LIFE Love is what restores and brings back to life from the dead
This is the message from the beginning LOVE GOD , for God is Love , we cannot heal ourselves We need JESUS CHRIST is His name , there is no name under heaven by which you MUST be saved ! HIS BODY HEALS the sick and brings back to life again from the dead and cast out wickedness .. eat my Body and drink my blood that you may have LIFE in you .. ... :HeartThrob:
Beautiful post!