U.R. affirmations

[rosered]

...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..

  Yes how the lambs blood was shed from the foundation of the world 

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.     those are the martyred ones  in Christ   that have   died in Christ the for-  ordained and forknew    Romans 8

8And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [Abel sure did ] his breath being spirit


29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified....

[jugghead]

...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..

  Yes how the lambs blood was shed from the foundation of the world 

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.     those are the martyred ones  in Christ   that have   died in Christ the for-  ordained and forknew    Romans 8

8And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [Abel sure did ] his breath being spirit


29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified....

Predestined = chosen in Him before the foundation of the world  :dsunny:

What an honor ..... to be chosen in Him before we ever existed in the physical; before we became flesh  :banana:

[marie glen]

...A lucky roll of the dice! :smile: It's why I think for the every day person on day of judgement (and anything following) it won't be any more stringent or painful than it was for any of us.. the same waking up to the fact of Jesus.. the same repentance and changing of the mind.. the knee bends, the tongue confesses, He is Lord! And even as far as the despots, etc are concerned.. perhaps that's one reason why there's a thousand years between apocalypse (the unveiling of true from untrue when the untrue crashes and burns on planet earth) and judgment day.. (to let some of the hellfire folk settle down?  :dontknow: just kidding! :laughing7: )

I'm pretty impressed with the Word about the fifth seal..

  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

..look how the answer to the verse is in the verse.. Looking at it from the aspect of an unbeliever (had this discussion once).. It seems logical that the martyrs crying out (for centuries and ages) are not literally locked under the altar crying, feeling despair, etc.. (for centuries and ages). And of course, the best logic includes the Word! In the description of the seal (martyrdom) - and it's not like Revelation talks in straight forward language, being a mixture of metaphor, symbol, etc, etc... But in the description is "the resting", in Jesus, the Sabbath, because Old Testament saints had a contract w/ Yahweh our Father through the temple sacrifices, shadow of things to come..

:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" ..something about that...  :idea2: the Holy Days are called Sabbath.. Day Of Atonement, which i believe is a shadow of Judgment Day.. He is Lord of it.. "the Father has given to Him all things.."

Thanks Rose! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:

The Word (sWord) of God is just bursting (!) with Universal Redemption/Reconciliation (Repentance; the 3R's :laughing7: ). Some of it is real obvious! And some not as obvious.. "King of Kings, Lord of Lords".. .."He is Lord"..

[rosered]

...A lucky roll of the dice! :smile: It's why I think for the every day person on day of judgement (and anything following) it won't be any more stringent or painful than it was for any of us.. the same waking up to the fact of Jesus.. the same repentance and changing of the mind.. the knee bends, the tongue confesses, He is Lord! And even as far as the despots, etc are concerned.. perhaps that's one reason why there's a thousand years between apocalypse (the unveiling of true from untrue when the untrue crashes and burns on planet earth) and judgment day.. (to let some of the hellfire folk settle down?  :dontknow: just kidding! :laughing7: )

I'm pretty impressed with the Word about the fifth seal..

  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

..look how the answer to the verse is in the verse.. Looking at it from the aspect of an unbeliever (had this discussion once).. It seems logical that the martyrs crying out (for centuries and ages) are not literally locked under the altar crying, feeling despair, etc.. (for centuries and ages). And of course, the best logic includes the Word! In the description of the seal (martyrdom) - and it's not like Revelation talks in straight forward language, being a mixture of metaphor, symbol, etc, etc... But in the description is "the resting", in Jesus, the Sabbath, because Old Testament saints had a contract w/ Yahweh our Father through the temple sacrifices, shadow of things to come..

:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" ..something about that...  :idea2: the Holy Days are called Sabbath.. Day Of Atonement, which i believe is a shadow of Judgment Day.. He is Lord of it.. "the Father has given to Him all things.."

Thanks Rose! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:

The Word (sWord) of God is just bursting (!) with Universal Redemption/Reconciliation (Repentance; the 3R's :laughing7: ). Some of it is real obvious! And some not as obvious.. "King of Kings, Lord of Lords".. .."He is Lord"..

   There is truth in those things      amen sis Marie!!!! :HeartThrob:

  The Lord of Sabbath'' rest     ''  is also    the Lord of heavens armies   taking out all those things that offend   first  , so the rest  will come  I do see this as a  DAY /1000 year    reign  coming for his people   after a great  war  or tribulation period of sin becoming utterly sinful   and exposed in  all   the flesh  of men [openly   shamed ]   as Babylon must fall   and satan must be  bound  , these are  what the   works of Fire of Gods  purification process is for ,   for me it is more of an individual     thing and not so much as a great show down    upon all   , My reasoning is this    and makes perfect sense to me  , but many must also look   within to see if it is truth to them  ,
    I believe     we are as Adam  who sleeps in the dust    and  must be awaked up inside   as  we journey into   the days of Noah  etc  as  we are all Israel   , because we come up out of the world   and were    bound  under the law   first    and trying to  save ourselves   and died trying and   by faith   believing in Jesus Christ   come  to understand  the  grace of God  ,   the salt of the earth ,You are the light of the world.You are a City set on a HILL   that cannot be  hid , so let you Light shine   forth   the same written Word becomes a living Word  by progression and knowledge of God   as  Babylon must fall and satan must be bound till   this loosing for a short season   as the same   LORD JESUS CHRIST  BEING THE  REST   LORD OF SABBOTH   armies  and Jesus   will make a short work in the earth in righteousness    because satan has already been cast out of heaven  our minds and hearts    ,  Paul desribing the sin in his members [ earth ]   in Romans 7 and 8   delivering him completly out  of the body of death into  everlasting life in CHRIST  !  We war not with flesh and blood  , but powers and principalities in high places [ you are a city set on a hill[ruler ]      the   holy Jerusalem    surrounded by   enemies  , the hedge the Lord has  kept you  in  .
I just see this as very  much a personal   thing between  our Lord  and His  great victory   over all   flesh  , some are the exact  examples  of the days of old for all to see   in the end ..

The Parable of the Weeds
(Ezekiel 17:1-10)Ezekiel 16:63
Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"

Ezekiel 17:2
"Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell it to the Israelites as a parable.


Matt
24He put before them another parable, saying, "The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man having sown good seed in his field.

25And while the men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds in the midst of the wheat, and went away.   Babylon  is of the tares and Jesus denounces them   openly in scriptures as   children of the devil /adversary    JOHN  8   my Word has no place in you  [ chocking out the WORD OF GOD by the tares and cares of this life   Matt 13    and the 3 types of the seed sown in our hearts ...

26And when the plants sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared.

27And the servants, having approached the master of the house, said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'

28And he said to them, 'An enemy did this.'

And the servants said to him, 'Then do you desire that having gone forth, we should gather them?'

29And he said, 'No, lest gathering the weeds, you would uproot the wheat with them.

30Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the harvesters,

"First gather the weeds, and bind them into bundles in order to burn them

; then gather together the wheat into my barn."'"      the wheat  are  ripe   for harvest  even than the gathering in the heavens was already in place !!!!!! 

  john 4 34Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.

35"Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest '? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.

36"Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together....


  I find  this an  absolutely  beautiful   TRUTH !!      OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD, HE MADE ALL THINGS FOR HIS GLORY !!!! 

[CST]

:laugh: Ta, Rose, clever Rose, wise Rose.

  Ya got me   Chris !     :friendstu:   ,  ha ! :LH:

Cheers,  :HeartThrob:

...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..

Still not seeing it myself but let's be honest maybe we're not entirely meant to. Notice how Genesis does not go into specifics about what happened when Cain took Abel into his field, it just tells us the result.

That said the seven seals themselves are all very strange I know that my tenuous understanding of some of them is not in agreement with the understanding on other parties. But this isn't the Revelation board.

Turns out I may have closer on Cain's motive than I thought though.

'and not be like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.' (1 John 3:12)

...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..

  Yes how the lambs blood was shed from the foundation of the world 

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.     those are the martyred ones  in Christ   that have   died in Christ the for-  ordained and forknew    Romans 8

8And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [Abel sure did ] his breath being spirit


29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified....

I really hate that part of the Bible it makes ETers sound right and at the same time wrong. Basically it, and other parts of the New Testament that suggest if you're not prepared to go off and proclaim your faith so strongly as to eventually provoke someone to murder you you'll go to Hell. If you succeed the person who murdered you will go to Hell. Doesn't sound terribly decent somehow.

...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..

  Yes how the lambs blood was shed from the foundation of the world 

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.     those are the martyred ones  in Christ   that have   died in Christ the for-  ordained and forknew    Romans 8

8And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [Abel sure did ] his breath being spirit


29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;


30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified....

Predestined = chosen in Him before the foundation of the world  :dsunny:

What an honor ..... to be chosen in Him before we ever existed in the physical; before we became flesh  :banana:

Obviously we existed in Him, in His thoughts or imagination or whatever you would call it when you're talking about the creativity of God. Shame about those He didn't choose. I'm not sure I like the idea of this honour only ETers really seem to have no trouble with the implications in my experience.

...A lucky roll of the dice! :smile: It's why I think for the every day person on day of judgement (and anything following) it won't be any more stringent or painful than it was for any of us.. the same waking up to the fact of Jesus.. the same repentance and changing of the mind.. the knee bends, the tongue confesses, He is Lord! And even as far as the despots, etc are concerned.. perhaps that's one reason why there's a thousand years between apocalypse (the unveiling of true from untrue when the untrue crashes and burns on planet earth) and judgment day.. (to let some of the hellfire folk settle down?  :dontknow: just kidding! :laughing7: )

I'm pretty impressed with the Word about the fifth seal..

  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

..look how the answer to the verse is in the verse.. Looking at it from the aspect of an unbeliever (had this discussion once).. It seems logical that the martyrs crying out (for centuries and ages) are not literally locked under the altar crying, feeling despair, etc.. (for centuries and ages). And of course, the best logic includes the Word! In the description of the seal (martyrdom) - and it's not like Revelation talks in straight forward language, being a mixture of metaphor, symbol, etc, etc... But in the description is "the resting", in Jesus, the Sabbath, because Old Testament saints had a contract w/ Yahweh our Father through the temple sacrifices, shadow of things to come..

:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" ..something about that...  :idea2: the Holy Days are called Sabbath.. Day Of Atonement, which i believe is a shadow of Judgment Day.. He is Lord of it.. "the Father has given to Him all things.."

Thanks Rose! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:

The Word (sWord) of God is just bursting (!) with Universal Redemption/Reconciliation (Repentance; the 3R's :laughing7: ). Some of it is real obvious! And some not as obvious.. "King of Kings, Lord of Lords".. .."He is Lord"..

Lucky is especially relative when your dealing with decisions of God which were made for His wise reasons and not at all arbitrarily. He needed Moses, He made Moses although the exact mechanics of how He preordained history to know He would need a Moses I doubt our heads will ever be able to comprehend.

I'd like to believe that the heathen coming to the truth won't be any more painful than it was for any of us but that immediately invites the objection 'well, how painful's that then?' I hate my life (so called) in many ways and I don't like to compare lots but I can't help thinking my life is pretty cushy compared with many unfortunate people in parts of the world where the name of Jesus is hardly ever spoken. How id there coming to Jesus meant to be no more painful than it was for us when there lives are already more painful than ours and it's often our fault?

That part of Revelation is very uncomfortable, remember John was writing the letter to Christians who were being persecuted and murdered by the Romans for their faith which they proclaimed it was for their benefit he wrote that bit, which isn't to say the symbol is devoid of truth but the point was to reassure them because they must have know people who'd gone that way and could likely expect to themselves. It was meant to encourage them to continue when they might otherwise be scared off but it reflects, it seems, the desire for vengeance they must have felt and the partiality in that is very uncomfortable.

...A lucky roll of the dice! :smile: It's why I think for the every day person on day of judgement (and anything following) it won't be any more stringent or painful than it was for any of us.. the same waking up to the fact of Jesus.. the same repentance and changing of the mind.. the knee bends, the tongue confesses, He is Lord! And even as far as the despots, etc are concerned.. perhaps that's one reason why there's a thousand years between apocalypse (the unveiling of true from untrue when the untrue crashes and burns on planet earth) and judgment day.. (to let some of the hellfire folk settle down?  :dontknow: just kidding! :laughing7: )

I'm pretty impressed with the Word about the fifth seal..

  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

..look how the answer to the verse is in the verse.. Looking at it from the aspect of an unbeliever (had this discussion once).. It seems logical that the martyrs crying out (for centuries and ages) are not literally locked under the altar crying, feeling despair, etc.. (for centuries and ages). And of course, the best logic includes the Word! In the description of the seal (martyrdom) - and it's not like Revelation talks in straight forward language, being a mixture of metaphor, symbol, etc, etc... But in the description is "the resting", in Jesus, the Sabbath, because Old Testament saints had a contract w/ Yahweh our Father through the temple sacrifices, shadow of things to come..

:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" ..something about that...  :idea2: the Holy Days are called Sabbath.. Day Of Atonement, which i believe is a shadow of Judgment Day.. He is Lord of it.. "the Father has given to Him all things.."

Thanks Rose! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:

The Word (sWord) of God is just bursting (!) with Universal Redemption/Reconciliation (Repentance; the 3R's :laughing7: ). Some of it is real obvious! And some not as obvious.. "King of Kings, Lord of Lords".. .."He is Lord"..

   There is truth in those things      amen sis Marie!!!! :HeartThrob:

  The Lord of Sabbath" rest     "  is also    the Lord of heavens armies   taking out all those things that offend   first  , so the rest  will come  I do see this as a  DAY /1000 year    reign  coming for his people   after a great  war  or tribulation period of sin becoming utterly sinful   and exposed in  all   the flesh  of men [openly   shamed ]   as Babylon must fall   and satan must be  bound  , these are  what the   works of Fire of Gods  purification process is for ,   for me it is more of an individual     thing and not so much as a great show down    upon all   , My reasoning is this    and makes perfect sense to me  , but many must also look   within to see if it is truth to them  ,
    I believe     we are as Adam  who sleeps in the dust    and  must be awaked up inside   as  we journey into   the days of Noah  etc  as  we are all Israel   , because we come up out of the world   and were    bound  under the law   first    and trying to  save ourselves   and died trying and   by faith   believing in Jesus Christ   come  to understand  the  grace of God  ,   the salt of the earth ,You are the light of the world.You are a City set on a HILL   that cannot be  hid , so let you Light shine   forth   the same written Word becomes a living Word  by progression and knowledge of God   as  Babylon must fall and satan must be bound till   this loosing for a short season   as the same   LORD JESUS CHRIST  BEING THE  REST   LORD OF SABBOTH   armies  and Jesus   will make a short work in the earth in righteousness    because satan has already been cast out of heaven  our minds and hearts    ,  Paul desribing the sin in his members [ earth ]   in Romans 7 and 8   delivering him completly out  of the body of death into  everlasting life in CHRIST  !  We war not with flesh and blood  , but powers and principalities in high places [ you are a city set on a hill[ruler ]      the   holy Jerusalem    surrounded by   enemies  , the hedge the Lord has  kept you  in  .
I just see this as very  much a personal   thing between  our Lord  and His  great victory   over all   flesh  , some are the exact  examples  of the days of old for all to see   in the end ..

The Parable of the Weeds
(Ezekiel 17:1-10)Ezekiel 16:63
Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"

Ezekiel 17:2
"Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell it to the Israelites as a parable.


Matt
24He put before them another parable, saying, "The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man having sown good seed in his field.

25And while the men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds in the midst of the wheat, and went away.   Babylon  is of the tares and Jesus denounces them   openly in scriptures as   children of the devil /adversary    JOHN  8   my Word has no place in you  [ chocking out the WORD OF GOD by the tares and cares of this life   Matt 13    and the 3 types of the seed sown in our hearts ...

26And when the plants sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared.

27And the servants, having approached the master of the house, said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'

28And he said to them, 'An enemy did this.'

And the servants said to him, 'Then do you desire that having gone forth, we should gather them?'

29And he said, 'No, lest gathering the weeds, you would uproot the wheat with them.

30Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the harvesters,

"First gather the weeds, and bind them into bundles in order to burn them

; then gather together the wheat into my barn."'"      the wheat  are  ripe   for harvest  even than the gathering in the heavens was already in place !!!!!! 

  john 4 34Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.

35"Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest '? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.

36"Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together....


  I find  this an  absolutely  beautiful   TRUTH !!      OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD, HE MADE ALL THINGS FOR HIS GLORY !!!! 

I'm not sure I can see things as you do here, not sure I can see what you're saying but then I suspect if I can't it doesn't matter. Though I really don't think I see that parable like that.

[rosered]

I really hate that part of the Bible it makes ETers sound right and at the same time wrong. Basically it, and other parts of the New Testament that suggest if you're not prepared to go off and proclaim your faith so strongly as to eventually provoke someone to murder you you'll go to Hell. If you succeed the person who murdered you will go to Hell. Doesn't sound terribly decent somehow.

  Well I can see this as a righteous judgement in the earth our mortal bodies , those whom   live by the Sword die by the same Sword ,    Word of the Spirit of truth

  It exposes our own hypocrisy    , allowing some to sin    and  not letting others get by    with it      , or by our own  hidden  sins  we  ''THINK '' we are better off than others ..
  I believe  God is fair in letting  all of us , every last one  carry sin  within our flesh   as a reminder that humility is    ours ,
when you forget    and let the pride  rare up its ugly head  you have a real monster on your hands     

  I believe the  mistake most take is  not   taking the Bible personally     , but keeping you outside looking in ,   and its a dark  mirror  of our very own reflection bound up under the law  of sin  and death .

  until you know what kind of man you are   and desiring to be   , we will always continue to look outside the TRUTH   
  THE TRUTH  IS within us     dividing us   and desiring to come  out     , some call it evil  and some  say good , we are a mixed bag  that is for sure    ...
It is impossible to judge a man  by outward appearances  and manifestations  of good and evil doing  without  looking into our own hearts     and seeing are the things we hate in them  the very same things we  do not love about ourselves ?
 
  To me the blame game  has always been the    secret sin of every mans  heart      from the beginning ..

and until we are honest   with ourselves    we can never be honest in judging  anything right .
  just  my thoughts
   there are scriptures   , many of them , but they make these posts  so long  and sometimes more confusing   than just being   forthright .

Which I hope I am being with you Chris    .  I am running out of time  , not patience    , just time  my dear .

[jugghead]

I think you misunderstood me CST, when you said "shame about those He didn't choose" 
my statement was in the context of all of mankind .....

mankind, all of mankind was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, some just come to the knowledge of this truth before others

God does not choose one "over" another ...... But He does choose one "before " others - which is Christ

When it comes to mankind:

God does not choose some "over" others ..... But He does choose some "before" others

And if I misunderstood you by what you stated, forgive me

[CST]

I really hate that part of the Bible it makes ETers sound right and at the same time wrong. Basically it, and other parts of the New Testament that suggest if you're not prepared to go off and proclaim your faith so strongly as to eventually provoke someone to murder you you'll go to Hell. If you succeed the person who murdered you will go to Hell. Doesn't sound terribly decent somehow.

  Well I can see this as a righteous judgement in the earth our mortal bodies , those whom   live by the Sword die by the same Sword ,    Word of the Spirit of truth

  It exposes our own hypocrisy    , allowing some to sin    and  not letting others get by    with it      , or by our own  hidden  sins  we  "THINK " we are better off than others ..
  I believe  God is fair in letting  all of us , every last one  carry sin  within our flesh   as a reminder that humility is    ours ,
when you forget    and let the pride  rare up its ugly head  you have a real monster on your hands     

  I believe the  mistake most take is  not   taking the Bible personally     , but keeping you outside looking in ,   and its a dark  mirror  of our very own reflection bound up under the law  of sin  and death .

  until you know what kind of man you are   and desiring to be   , we will always continue to look outside the TRUTH   
  THE TRUTH  IS within us     dividing us   and desiring to come  out     , some call it evil  and some  say good , we are a mixed bag  that is for sure    ...
It is impossible to judge a man  by outward appearances  and manifestations  of good and evil doing  without  looking into our own hearts     and seeing are the things we hate in them  the very same things we  do not love about ourselves ?
 
  To me the blame game  has always been the    secret sin of every mans  heart      from the beginning ..

and until we are honest   with ourselves    we can never be honest in judging  anything right .
  just  my thoughts
   there are scriptures   , many of them , but they make these posts  so long  and sometimes more confusing   than just being   forthright .

Which I hope I am being with you Chris    .  I am running out of time  , not patience    , just time  my dear .

Don't worry I often lose time to especially in conversations like this. Here I this we may have been talking crossed purposes even though there may be much truth and wisdom in your reply. Most people are not martyrs. I don't see myself as a martyr or even being one, if only martyrs are saved no one living, who does know their future can know or claim they're saved. Yet there's a suggestion in some quarters it's required for salvation. Which would make UR difficult.

I think you misunderstood me CST, when you said "shame about those He didn't choose" 
my statement was in the context of all of mankind .....

mankind, all of mankind was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, some just come to the knowledge of this truth before others

God does not choose one "over" another ...... But He does choose one "before " others - which is Christ

When it comes to mankind:

God does not choose some "over" others ..... But He does choose some "before" others

And if I misunderstood you by what you stated, forgive me

No, this is right but the difference is as much as I'd like to imagine, and can devise ideas of how at the judgement God just wraps everyone in a blanket invites them to HIs party in His kingdom which we'll all have more fun doing all the things we enjoy better than we've ever enjoyed doing them and He won't take 'no' for an answer this time, I just don't believe it as much as I'd like to.

That difference between the now and next in terms of journey is massive. Some people will go to Hell, probably some who I know and care for, maybe even me, have a pretty unpleasant time then come out and we may not even recognize them. I still hold there's only so much a person can change before you can't really call them the same person anymore. This is what sets me off.

I accept they will be saved but not until they've experiences things I suspect we'd all balk at experiencing.

[rosered]

Don't worry I often lose time to especially in conversations like this. Here I this we may have been talking crossed purposes even though there may be much truth and wisdom in your reply. Most people are not martyrs. I don't see myself as a martyr or even being one, if only martyrs are saved no one living, who does know their future can know or claim they're saved. Yet there's a suggestion in some quarters it's required for salvation. Which would make UR difficult.

Hi Chris  ,

I have enjoyed your  company  and find you are not so different in sharing your thoughts as much as I have been  asking the same questions and  seeking  some kind of    settling  within me   over the course of many years  of  the Lord dealing with us all .

  I do believe  though ,  until you see the symbolism     between the   two worlds   [heavenly Spiritual  realm and the earthly  carnal  realm  ],  the struggle remains    within ,   in inner conflict      trying to  reconcile  between the two    and exercising     the authority which is in Christ   to overcome   one for the other . .

as we  grow in the Truth and grace  by the Fathers increase   

   We see the symbolism in casting out the bondwoman   and her son ?   Gal 4    this carnal   /beast  mind /man   shall not be heir with   the son of promise  Issac  ,  so the Spiritual man  will rule over the  carnal   man / mind in you ...    your strength comes from the Christ in you   ,  as the carnal man submits  or leaves us  all together ...



   The son  Ismael   in allegory  [is a wild man  , a donkey , who is ''a hand/ power is against his brothers  , being carnal and beastly in nature     torments the  spiritual  , this can be  seen as not just within you  but against any spiritual  born brother   ..   

Gen 16 This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives."

   For me ,  as far as martyrs    goes , it is when the   spirit in you is slain   by our own carnal nature , but   our hope is in Christ whom will rise again     in a new Day is dawning  in our hearts   

Life and death are ours,  we  experience  both       often I believe      ,  the power of life and death  are in the tongue proverbs 18

Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.   

fruits of Life and  the fruits of  corruption /death , in which  man is control  ,   carnal man or spiritual man in Christ ,   from  ruling  the heart 

  The symbolism   of what manner of man    is in control ,   out f the heart the mouth speaks http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2588&t=KJV     

  The pure in heart shall see God

[jugghead]

very well said Rose  :dsunny:

[rosered]

very well said Rose  :dsunny:

God bless you Jugg ,
I have really enjoyed everyone posts    !!!!   lots to glean from and   mostly  Love to all  :HeartThrob:

I am so glad you are here brother  :icon_flower:

[CST]

Don't worry I often lose time to especially in conversations like this. Here I this we may have been talking crossed purposes even though there may be much truth and wisdom in your reply. Most people are not martyrs. I don't see myself as a martyr or even being one, if only martyrs are saved no one living, who does know their future can know or claim they're saved. Yet there's a suggestion in some quarters it's required for salvation. Which would make UR difficult.

Hi Chris  ,

I have enjoyed your  company  and find you are not so different in sharing your thoughts as much as I have been  asking the same questions and  seeking  some kind of    settling  within me   over the course of many years  of  the Lord dealing with us all .

  I do believe  though ,  until you see the symbolism     between the   two worlds   [heavenly Spiritual  realm and the earthly  carnal  realm  ],  the struggle remains    within ,   in inner conflict      trying to  reconcile  between the two    and exercising     the authority which is in Christ   to overcome   one for the other . .

as we  grow in the Truth and grace  by the Fathers increase   

   We see the symbolism in casting out the bondwoman   and her son ?   Gal 4    this carnal   /beast  mind /man   shall not be heir with   the son of promise  Issac  ,  so the Spiritual man  will rule over the  carnal   man / mind in you ...    your strength comes from the Christ in you   ,  as the carnal man submits  or leaves us  all together ...



   The son  Ismael   in allegory  [is a wild man  , a donkey , who is "a hand/ power is against his brothers  , being carnal and beastly in nature     torments the  spiritual  , this can be  seen as not just within you  but against any spiritual  born brother   ..   

Gen 16 This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives."

   For me ,  as far as martyrs    goes , it is when the   spirit in you is slain   by our own carnal nature , but   our hope is in Christ whom will rise again     in a new Day is dawning  in our hearts   

Life and death are ours,  we  experience  both       often I believe      ,  the power of life and death  are in the tongue proverbs 18

Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.   

fruits of Life and  the fruits of  corruption /death , in which  man is control  ,   carnal man or spiritual man in Christ ,   from  ruling  the heart 

  The symbolism   of what manner of man    is in control ,   out f the heart the mouth speaks http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2588&t=KJV     

  The pure in heart shall see God

I'm not quite sure how this pertains. I am sure of the following things, I am commanded that I love other people sometimes not easy sometimes, perhaps, unjustly easy, but I frequently discover that in the situations where I do love other parties I will balk, often very painfully, at the suffering wrought on them however much justice it is supposed to be. That's the level on my compassion. And I'm less loving than God I have no idea how He can bare it.

At least it helps to ever so slightly at least to understand why He'd be prepared to suffer so much our lives and presumably to rescue us from it. But then I end up with the same sort of problem as I have with ET.

I keep feeling that ET and ED have held sway over the minds of Christians for so many centuries that getting out of that mindset when your trying to be a UR convert is really hard.

I too often encounter this mindset, not necessarily round here, that seems to say Hell's not pleasant but as long as it's not forever that solves all the theological problems therein and I'm really not sure it does.

[marie glen]

I'm not quite sure how this pertains. I am sure of the following things, I am commanded that I love other people sometimes not easy sometimes, perhaps, unjustly easy, but I frequently discover that in the situations where I do love other parties I will balk, often very painfully, at the suffering wrought on them however much justice it is supposed to be. That's the level on my compassion. And I'm less loving than God I have no idea how He can bare it.

At least it helps to ever so slightly at least to understand why He'd be prepared to suffer so much our lives and presumably to rescue us from it. But then I end up with the same sort of problem as I have with ET.

I keep feeling that ET and ED have held sway over the minds of Christians for so many centuries that getting out of that mindset when your trying to be a UR convert is really hard.

I too often encounter this mindset, not necessarily round here, that seems to say Hell's not pleasant but as long as it's not forever that solves all the theological problems therein and I'm really not sure it does.

Wow, CST, I did't know any one else thought or felt that way! To me any truth it seems should jive with the truth that God is 100% good and is love. At the same time I understand "justice" and to me, what's been a good and sizable puzzle piece to everything.. from my relationship with Him to what is it He's working out in the world, or via the world(?). And that's the idea that our 'punishment' is for one to suffer the consequences of one's own choices and actions. Plus we see the world as a mixture and interaction of everyone's choices.. It's like, man, please, Yahweh has GOT to rule!!

Daniel 4:17 - "to the intent that the living may know that the most High rules.."

I know there's all that flowery language about smiting nations, or whatnot.. but I guess that's what I think it is, flowery language. And also we can't forget that Yahweh is communicating through His Word to all, including the basest, most low down and mean criminal, and outright despots, oppressors and abusers of whole nations..

And as far as life post resurrection for those folks not yet saved, who rise in the 2nd resurrection.. I'm thinking for most it will be welcome to realize there is resurrection!! And a lot of common, everyday people, and many 'not so common' I don't think, will find it any harder to repent than any one of us did.. I simply think of judgment 'day' as another age, one wherein the not yet saved will repent, be forgiven and reconciled.. Maybe there might even be one or two totally hard cases.. but actually, i think the 'day' will be long enough that all will repent.. before close of that 'day' (age) when it will be that "all those not believing (written in the book of-life) will go to the lake of fire" likely "ageduring" as the YLT says it ...("aionian") but it doesn't actually say that in that verse.. (No reference to time or duration.) And those 2 in revelation 19, I believe are institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return :smile: To me, that's how a whole picture seems to fit together and answer all questions (for me anyway!) :gsmile: I believe He has done each and every thing just the way He has in order to bring about the very best of all possible outcomes and 'end' result.

:Peace2: just my :2c:

P.S. - I figure this whole 'mess' of life as we presently know it - fallen nature - is unavoidable if we're to be rational creatures. Thinking ability includes choice.. but God is both Life and Perfection.. so to be imperfect is the opposite of life. We need to learn, know and fully understand that. All need to fully comprehend this.. and that's what this whole learning experience is all about.

And you know what else i was thinking about.. Since Yahweh is Life itself (surely?!) then He suffers, lives through, and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur. That's a lot. Human history. wow. :mshock: :crywipe:

[marie glen]

Affirmation:

If stories dreamed up and written by man, have a happy ending, how much MORE so, the story of God Almighty? Aka, what it is He is doing.

    :Peace2: God bless!

[GodIsLove]

Affirmation:

If stories dreamed up and written by man, have a happy ending, how much MORE so, the story of God Almighty? Aka, what it is He is doing.

    :Peace2: God bless!

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

God's story has a very happy ending.

But like the birth of a child, it comes through travail and blood and water with a fair amount of screaming by all parties except the Deliverer.  :icon_jokercolor:

[CST]

I'm not quite sure how this pertains. I am sure of the following things, I am commanded that I love other people sometimes not easy sometimes, perhaps, unjustly easy, but I frequently discover that in the situations where I do love other parties I will balk, often very painfully, at the suffering wrought on them however much justice it is supposed to be. That's the level on my compassion. And I'm less loving than God I have no idea how He can bare it.

At least it helps to ever so slightly at least to understand why He'd be prepared to suffer so much our lives and presumably to rescue us from it. But then I end up with the same sort of problem as I have with ET.

I keep feeling that ET and ED have held sway over the minds of Christians for so many centuries that getting out of that mindset when your trying to be a UR convert is really hard.

I too often encounter this mindset, not necessarily round here, that seems to say Hell's not pleasant but as long as it's not forever that solves all the theological problems therein and I'm really not sure it does.

Wow, CST, I did't know any one else thought or felt that way! To me any truth it seems should jive with the truth that God is 100% good and is love. At the same time I understand "justice" and to me, what's been a good and sizable puzzle piece to everything.. from my relationship with Him to what is it He's working out in the world, or via the world(?). And that's the idea that our 'punishment' is for one to suffer the consequences of one's own choices and actions. Plus we see the world as a mixture and interaction of everyone's choices.. It's like, man, please, Yahweh has GOT to rule!!

Daniel 4:17 - "to the intent that the living may know that the most High rules.."

I know there's all that flowery language about smiting nations, or whatnot.. but I guess that's what I think it is, flowery language. And also we can't forget that Yahweh is communicating through His Word to all, including the basest, most low down and mean criminal, and outright despots, oppressors and abusers of whole nations..

And as far as life post resurrection for those folks not yet saved, who rise in the 2nd resurrection.. I'm thinking for most it will be welcome to realize there is resurrection!! And a lot of common, everyday people, and many 'not so common' I don't think, will find it any harder to repent than any one of us did.. I simply think of judgment 'day' as another age, one wherein the not yet saved will repent, be forgiven and reconciled.. Maybe there might even be one or two totally hard cases.. but actually, i think the 'day' will be long enough that all will repent.. before close of that 'day' (age) when it will be that "all those not believing (written in the book of-life) will go to the lake of fire" likely "ageduring" as the YLT says it ...("aionian") but it doesn't actually say that in that verse.. (No reference to time or duration.) And those 2 in revelation 19, I believe are institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return :smile: To me, that's how a whole picture seems to fit together and answer all questions (for me anyway!) :gsmile: I believe He has done each and every thing just the way He has in order to bring about the very best of all possible outcomes and 'end' result.

:Peace2: just my :2c:

P.S. - I figure this whole 'mess' of life as we presently know it - fallen nature - is unavoidable if we're to be rational creatures. Thinking ability includes choice.. but God is both Life and Perfection.. so to be imperfect is the opposite of life. We need to learn, know and fully understand that. All need to fully comprehend this.. and that's what this whole learning experience is all about.

And you know what else i was thinking about.. Since Yahweh is Life itself (surely?!) then He suffers, lives through, and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur. That's a lot. Human history. wow. :mshock: :crywipe:

<Sigh> I don't think I feel it all the time but then I'm not God and as I mentioned God will certainly feel it more palpably than I do. Then again I'm not surer God thinks about it all the time either. I can't even imagine how the 'unchanging' God thinks which actually means He does think of it all the time because He thinks of everything all the time which would mean that God is still thinking about our pain and suffering even when it's all over and we're all saved. That can't be true it, sounds awful even if He's also thinking of our happines which we're also enjoying.

I'm not sure that it's true that you understand 'justice' I'm not sure anyone does. We have our own concepts of what justice is but they're not the same. ET advocates clearly believe in a concept of justice that makes them think that injury without end to people who opposed God's purposes in their life time is what God is compelled to do to meet the demands of His justice, however 'unloving' it may be.

Of course some of us are wrong and deluding ourselves, the Bible teaches the we are all supposed to know what justice is and so whoever's wrong should know they're wrong. Obviously I hold that evidence from the Bible shows that ET and people and wrong.

But is it possible that we because we have to have an active role in the execution of justice - the Bible shows this - than our perceptions are not entirely without impact and an actually inner demand to see justice done in some way means God can't just appear and say, 'you're all forgiven' to everyone, when a vast swath of people He's forgiven are like the Unforgiving Debtor and won't accept that. God can forgive who He likes but if He want's us to be participants in justice it might be a little harder to ignore the demands we feel should be met. Just a thought I have sometimes.

Yeah, I think we do see the world like that, though I'm not one hundred percent sure I've understood all that sentence. Although my response to the conclusion is to reject the concept of free will and replace it with the concept of independent will which is different.

But we can't really talk about that here, we're not free to do so but I wouldn't want to much in this thread but it's a different topic.

I'm not sure and use the word 'flowery' to describe God's rather violent vengeance that's the essence of irony. I can see the sentiment however.

I don't really want to discuss the Revelation in this section seeing that it has a whole board to its self which I hope I'll reach eventually but I do share your understandings of the text in many regards though I struggle to accept the sentiments much as i like them because I don't feel they are quite in the spirit of the text even though the text its self doesn't contradict the. To me repentance may be 'easy' to us as to them but as I understand they still have to walk the road and that, so I've been led to believe, is harder.

Again, not to talk too much about my disbelief in free will but I do believe that whether we have it or not we have an experience of it and as you say making our own choices through which we can make right and wrong choices and, hopefully, grow and learn in discovering which is which.

Wow, following from that I think I should get on with finishing given the other presentation of the Ontological Argument shortly.

[/quote]

Affirmation:

If stories dreamed up and written by man, have a happy ending, how much MORE so, the story of God Almighty? Aka, what it is He is doing.

    :Peace2: God bless!

Not all of them. Some stories of men have terribly distressing endings, I alluded to some of those in my first post you just answered up there.

[marie glen]

CST, I didn't mean to imply I understand "justice" fully.. I should have written understand the idea of justice being necessary.. and even that would not be fully :gsmile:

I tend to avoid movies and the like which do not end happily! How sad it will be if life actually turns out to be more like a greek tragedy than a happily ever after... Which to me, doesn't jive. I can't perceive of God being anything less than utter perfection. To me, that pretty much answers it all + the Word (sWord of truth) + logic (related after all to logos). LOgic being "where would such and such an idea lead?" such as Yahweh losing some folks... would equal not perfect.

I don't believe those whom I think will come to faith and repentance on judgment 'day' will simply believe and repent upon being resurrected, tho I think some will.. (surely? why not? they've been resurrected from their grave). And I believe there will be all degrees of 'easy' and 'difficult' even as there is now during this life and those who come to the faith during it.. Otherwise there would be no "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" nor "outer darkness" - the psyche is no easy thing surely! :gsmile:

[CST]

And I didn't mean to suggest that you did mean to imply such, I can't actually remember exactly how I did take what you said. My only intended point, I think, was that complexities about the nature of justice could create stumbling blocks to have our otherwise 'ideal' outcome at judgment.

I tend to avoid movies that I think (or fear) will directly upset me but to avoid all movies I think won't have happy endings would preclude an awful lot of movies. I've seen a lot of stories that I get the impression were supposed to have a 'happy ending' and it's meant to be perceived that way I just happy to find the less ideal that the writer appears to have intended and often they can be the worst precisely because the journey creates an expectation that isn't met and is often utterly violated.

Consciously only choosing stories you know are going to have a happy ending is bound to be really limiting and requires learning the story before you watch the story, which kind of defeats the point.

On top of that no story can actually undermine God's Happy Ending because none of them can finally address the question of eternity because they stop. But my point is, to use a tame example, that Snow White is all Happily Ever After... unless you're the wicked queen.

I also didn't mean to imply I thought you meant resurrection = instant repentance. I know that you've said you think it takes a five hundred year long judgment day. I get what you're saying but the problem is that it doesn't change the fact that some didn't work in the vineyards. Still I also sometimes wonder if in some cases judgment will be know less dramatic in some cases than what you get on Daytime and evening television. Than I think better of the idea. All the same I think the concept sounds weird.

God just telling everyone everyone else's darkest secrets. Why, so people can judge each other negatively for all the bad things they've done? What's the point? We're all equally guilty and we do more than enough of that in this lifetime?

[marie glen]

I know, right? My perception, or idea of Judgment Day is a review of human history.. within each psyche will be their own personal stories.. :2c:

I do watch some movies, etc which do not end as happily ever after.. tho I know they have their redeeming qualities, I avoid movies about dying from cancer.. But war movies, I actually (sort of) 'enjoy', maybe because all the weeping is kind of cleansing..

  you know, :Chinscratch: if folks hadn't had 'hell' drilled into them, the folks who wake up in the 2nd resurrection perhaps.. well, let's just say Judgment 'Day' wouldn't likely be half so terrifying! Imagine waking up from ones grave, faced with the bright holiness of the presence of God.. and remembering all those things you heard about (gulp) hell!

Oh I think it will be a terrible time! howling.. and screaming.. and weeping.. and gnashing of teeth... all part of the whole lesson/drama. Terrible time for those experiencing it as rising in the resurrection of judgment, and also for those watching the whole thing.. perhaps being put to work therein somehow..

..Also with some unfinished business between persons! Attempted murders breaking out, etc. Whole populations rising up concerning, and against, their despots that abused them. (Geeesh :mshock: I think I'm getting as imaginative as some of the hell dreamers..)

....and "the wicked queen in Snow White" if we carry the story further, to where we assume all stories (if real :laughing7: ) will go.. she will ultimately repent.. yet always.. in her consciousness knowing she has played the part of wicked queen.. although :Chinscratch: Yahweh himself chose her to play that role.. (because, hey, someone's gotta do it? :dontknow: ) :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

My perception, or idea of Judgment Day is a review of human history.. within each psyche will be their own personal stories.. :2c:

I agree entirely. As does Paul  in his epistle to the Romans....

their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

[marie glen]

Thank you, EW, I had not noticed that before! :thumbsup:

[CST]

I know, right? My perception, or idea of Judgment Day is a review of human history.. within each psyche will be their own personal stories.. :2c:

I do watch some movies, etc which do not end as happily ever after.. tho I know they have their redeeming qualities, I avoid movies about dying from cancer.. But war movies, I actually (sort of) 'enjoy', maybe because all the weeping is kind of cleansing..

  you know, :Chinscratch: if folks hadn't had 'hell' drilled into them, the folks who wake up in the 2nd resurrection perhaps.. well, let's just say Judgment 'Day' wouldn't likely be half so terrifying! Imagine waking up from ones grave, faced with the bright holiness of the presence of God.. and remembering all those things you heard about (gulp) hell!

Oh I think it will be a terrible time! howling.. and screaming.. and weeping.. and gnashing of teeth... all part of the whole lesson/drama. Terrible time for those experiencing it as rising in the resurrection of judgment, and also for those watching the whole thing.. perhaps being put to work therein somehow..

..Also with some unfinished business between persons! Attempted murders breaking out, etc. Whole populations rising up concerning, and against, their despots that abused them. (Geeesh :mshock: I think I'm getting as imaginative as some of the hell dreamers..)

....and "the wicked queen in Snow White" if we carry the story further, to where we assume all stories (if real :laughing7: ) will go.. she will ultimately repent.. yet always.. in her consciousness knowing she has played the part of wicked queen.. although :Chinscratch: Yahweh himself chose her to play that role.. (because, hey, someone's gotta do it? :dontknow: ) :gsmile:

Yeah, it's interesting what we choose to avoid but it seems clear that I haven't made my objections here very clear. While I don't go out of my way to watch films of people dying of cancer I don't particular have a problem with them overall. At the same time I don't tend to watch war film as the period interests me little.

Your point about the concept of Hell is an interesting and no doubt important one because God hasn't gone out of His way to remove it from the Bible or our consciousness. He's put enough in the Bible to make us certain it isn't eternal but apparently not enough that people can't read around those bits if they are inclined to do so and go to the bits that seem to suggest differently. I really think there's a reason for that and it's probably got something to do with the fact that even if it's not forever waking up at the judgement without any fear or concern over the consequences of sin and indeed living our lives like that would not be constructive and would be at least as duplicitous as suggesting we might actually burn forever. At least there actually is an eternal aspect to the consequences of our sinning somewhere along the line.

I'd agree that it does sound like one way or another it might well be a 'terrible time' but again it brings me back to the point I made before "how does God bear it?" and how do those experiencing it bear it and not go mad? Which would make them hard to save. Of course there's to (at least) sorts of suffering 'direct' when you are suffering because of what is happening to you and 'indirect' and 'indirect' which is when you suffer because of what you see happening to others. I concur that 'Hell' could easily comprise both those aspects.

Obviously no one is going to break out of Hell, and if they do they're not going to be able to enter the gates of the city till they're clean. I curious as to why you used the example of 'attempted' murderers, who I personally don't see as any better than murders in and of themselves.

Yeah, in the 'original' Snow White (I use that tentatively tracing the original of fairy tales is hard) the Queen mangaes to murder Snow White three times before she finally marries the Prince. The Queen of seeing this goes into a rage and drops dead. And that's the end of her.

But this is a tame example and I intended it not as an example of what actually offends me but an example of how what we're meant to take as 'happy endings' can be relative and may not be happy for all involves. This is life, it can upset me, but it generally doesn't offend me.

I'll try and give you a better example.

Your American history has given us many great works of literature, great tales and fairy tales. One of those tales was written at the beginning of the last century spawned fourteen official sequels and a very successful movie musical that tends to be taken as better than the book, though I suspect only by people who haven't actually read it.

In case you haven't worked it out I am referring to The Wonderful Wizard Of Oz by L. Frank Baum. It's a beautiful book. Very hard to fault and thoroughly enjoyable. But it also has fourteen sequels. Which are not.

So far I've managed to read all but two of those books and the first excepted (and to a degree The Lost Princess Of Oz) they are some of the most unpleasant books I have ever read.

Why well, from about the second book Oz is ruled by a beautiful fairy princess called Ozma whom is adored by all her subjects and it is impossible not to love. Oh, really? Try me!

I can't stand Ozma, her decisions are completely partisan, utterly arbitrary and morally defunct and she is way to liberal with the water of oblivion.

I can't stand the woman, she seem to be the worse form of autocrat, a tyrant who doesn't know she's a tyrant.

She rules the whole of Oz favouring those she know and shares her palace with over subjects who might get into spats with her favorites even thorough she's never even bothered to meet them. And you're meant to like this thoroughly unpleasant character. And all the stories are supposed to have 'happy endings' except for anyone who got on the wrong side of this vengeful madam.

These stories are so immoral in their nature and the fact they are written for children who aren't supposed to see this is something I find hugely disturbing, and yes offense. I've struggle to place exactly what elements in stories set me off like this but moral hypocrisy seems to have a lot to do with it.

Thank you, EW, I had not noticed that before! :thumbsup:

Ah, but there's a problem with that because people's consciences don't agree on things and illustrations like the above show this. And some people are sensitive and inclined to judge themselves negatively and others very positively.

On the argument this suggests the self-righteous will get into Heaven the easiest because they never let their consciences condemn anything they do. But this is the opposite of what Jesus taught.

[marie glen]

That's very true.. When I read part of the book "I'm Ok, You're Ok" years ago, what it said struck me as very true.. That there's (basically) three psychologies (according to the book)

1 - I'm ok. You're not ok. - I think we can see this in many folks.. but it is not the healthy mind set

2 - You're ok. I'm not ok. - This too, is not the healthy mindset, for obvious reasons.. which you touched on..

3 - the healthy mind set - no chip on the shoulder, no inferiority complex.. "I'm ok. You're ok." Of course this cannot always be true. Faced with Charley Manson or someone, it would not be true to say "I'm ok, you're ok...

Which sort of reminds me of my own biggest reason for not wanting judgement day to be a piece of cake - (for the everyday sinner, no more so than it was for the rest of us 'everyday' sinners).. but certainly not for despots, dictators and genocidal maniacs.. including all those on a lesser scale.. Nope, should not be "easy".. Not by a long shot!

And, their victims 'deserve' to think "I can't wait for judgment day" when their evil is exposed and they have to pay their dues! I find myself thinking "I can't wait for judgment day" when I hear of some terrible evil done to, well, some of those everyday sinners.. (regular folk/people -- we're all in this together). Or when I read of some horrible ruler in history.. etc.. etc..

I actually, however, am not entirely sure any humans will go to the lake of fire. If indeed, or by any chance, judgement 'day' does last nigh unto 500 years - who by end of 'day', after being risen from their grave and living through and witnessing a long day of the review of all things.. who, after all that, isn't going to "believe" and therefor, faced with the radiance of God's holiness and purifying fiery presence, not going to come to their senses and repent - mightily.

This is just my theory of course. But I can't help noticing that in revelation chapter 20, last verse, when it says those not written in the book, will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, it doesn't say "age-during" or anything else pertaining to duration at all.

The only lake of fire verse which does mention duration is Rev 20:10 - (YLT) - "and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." - "ages to the ages" being #g165 "aiōn" with a slight difference in the two "ages/aion, but I don't know greek so..

αιωνας of the αιωνων  :dontknow:

But we do know Col 1:20 and Eph 1:10 which say "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus." And how Yahweh will be "all in all".. (so, either the devil perishes in the lof or there is a duration..)

In Revelation chapter 19 - I may of course be very wrong, and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who agrees with me, but in revelation 19 when "the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the LOF" I don't believe they are persons at all (but institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return). So to my mind, before end of judgment day - thus far, no humans in the lof.

"Judgment" too upon unrepentant evildoers (who likely no one would like to see get off easy) will also come upon many at Jesus' return, when the birds 'of midheaven' - the birds which fly higher than the little birds? are told to gather for the great feast of God in the day of the great slaughter (when the towers fall) is likely not to be too clear of sailing either.. And that's a large part of what I personally think "judgment" is. The coming upon our own heads, our own doings and choices. (Amen, not 'free-will', but what I think of as the ability to make choices, an offshoot of thinking ability?)

'Hell' --- fire as destruction.. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer, on the 'success' of the Manhattan Project.
"The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard" - Isaiah 24:20

...all just my :2c: of course.. :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

That's very true.. When I read part of the book "I'm Ok, You're Ok" years ago, what it said struck me as very true.. That there's (basically) three psychologies (according to the book)

1 - I'm ok. You're not ok. - I think we can see this in many folks.. but it is not the healthy mind set

2 - You're ok. I'm not ok. - This too, is not the healthy mindset, for obvious reasons.. which you touched on..

3 - the healthy mind set - no chip on the shoulder, no inferiority complex.. "I'm ok. You're ok." Of course this cannot always be true. Faced with Charley Manson or someone, it would not be true to say "I'm ok, you're ok...

Which sort of reminds me of my own biggest reason for not wanting judgement day to be a piece of cake - (for the everyday sinner, no more so than it was for the rest of us 'everyday' sinners).. but certainly not for despots, dictators and genocidal maniacs.. including all those on a lesser scale.. Nope, should not be "easy".. Not by a long shot!

And, their victims 'deserve' to think "I can't wait for judgment day" when their evil is exposed and they have to pay their dues! I find myself thinking "I can't wait for judgment day" when I hear of some terrible evil done to, well, some of those everyday sinners.. (regular folk/people -- we're all in this together). Or when I read of some horrible ruler in history.. etc.. etc..

I actually, however, am not entirely sure any humans will go to the lake of fire. If indeed, or by any chance, judgement 'day' does last nigh unto 500 years - who by end of 'day', after being risen from their grave and living through and witnessing a long day of the review of all things.. who, after all that, isn't going to "believe" and therefor, faced with the radiance of God's holiness and purifying fiery presence, not going to come to their senses and repent - mightily.

This is just my theory of course. But I can't help noticing that in revelation chapter 20, last verse, when it says those not written in the book, will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, it doesn't say "age-during" or anything else pertaining to duration at all.

The only lake of fire verse which does mention duration is Rev 20:10 - (YLT) - "and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." - "ages to the ages" being #g165 "aiōn" with a slight difference in the two "ages/aion, but I don't know greek so..

αιωνας of the αιωνων  :dontknow:

But we do know Col 1:20 and Eph 1:10 which say "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus." And how Yahweh will be "all in all".. (so, either the devil perishes in the lof or there is a duration..)

In Revelation chapter 19 - I may of course be very wrong, and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who agrees with me, but in revelation 19 when "the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the LOF" I don't believe they are persons at all (but institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return). So to my mind, before end of judgment day - thus far, no humans in the lof.

"Judgment" too upon unrepentant evildoers (who likely no one would like to see get off easy) will also come upon many at Jesus' return, when the birds 'of midheaven' - the birds which fly higher than the little birds? are told to gather for the great feast of God in the day of the great slaughter (when the towers fall) is likely not to be too clear of sailing either.. And that's a large part of what I personally think "judgment" is. The coming upon our own heads, our own doings and choices. (Amen, not 'free-will', but what I think of as the ability to make choices, an offshoot of thinking ability?)

'Hell' --- fire as destruction.. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer, on the 'success' of the Manhattan Project.
"The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard" - Isaiah 24:20

...all just my :2c: of course.. :gsmile:

I prefer to just go with the scriptures, which say those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life will go into the lake of fire. Why write it if it is meritless? The issue is, what is the fire of God?

It is not actual flames. John saw Jesus and saw flames in His eyes and His face shining like the sun. He was in no pain lol. The fire was a good thing. It always is- but it doesnt always FEEL like a good things.

After all, it will destroy both death and the grave, what so bad about that?

It is a question that still faces a lot of universalists in that it asks, what is the nature and purpose of a post earthly-life "fire" if there is one, such as Gehenna and the Lake of Fire suggest for some believers.

If the issue is to torment someone until they bow the knee and confess, it is still a pretty weird version of YHWH that desires to convert people that way. However, if the fire represents intensity of light (the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ), the bringing of hidden things to light(every hidden thing will be brought to light...everything brought to the light becomes light) then, altho the experience may be unpleasant in some measure(all discipline is for the moment unpleasant) the issue is not torment but rather it is the exposure of the secrets of the heart and the removal of the veils of the self-life in the presence of the infinite love of God in Christ.... a distinction worthy of making in my view because at its root the gospel is the revelation of the divine nature of God, His ways and His whys.