U.R. affirmations

[WhiteWings]

I don't want to be saved "as through fire" I don't see that as being saved.

That's the only salvation there is.
If you read all the fire/testing/tormenting/pruning verses you will see that each and every of them is about refining in some way. Removing impurities in the refiners fire or with the launderers soap. And of course pruning. The word He always used in connection to punishment.

[rosered]

:CryBaby: Thanks for trying to understand Rose unfortunately I don't think you can be cause I am a :fool:

You'll probably struggle to understand what I was saying because I wasn't finished. For time purposes I had to split my response between my answer to you and my answer to lastpost. And then because I am a :fool: while I was typing that reply and in another tab getting more Bible references I managed to closed the tap I was in here and lost everything I had written which was a lot. I don't have time to write it all again today so the above post is currently worthless because it won't make sense in the way it should. Clearly God did not want that post finishing today. Maybe another day.

I so thank you for trying   though Chris  , an am sorry   it      was lost! :sigh:

  This has happened to me as well and   I also   am a :fool:  than

God willing you will be even more clear the next time around   and be able to finish it  perfectly ....

[rosered]

I don't want to be saved "as through fire" I don't see that as being saved.

That's the only salvation there is.
If you read all the fire/testing/tormenting/pruning verses you will see that each and every of them is about refining in some way. Removing impurities in the refiners fire or with the launderers soap. And of course pruning. The word He always used in connection to punishment.

  Hey Bro  T ,
  Thanks and agree ''  great input ''  :iagree:

[eaglesway]

Our God is a consuming fire. The verse in question speaks of "works" of "wood, hay and stubble" being consumed by the fire. This is about motive, purity of heart, and a God who is gracious enough to consume the things we do for the wrong reasons- but not consume us :o)

[lastpost]

Dear CST,

Blessings. I see you are busy. This internet medium is far from ideal for relaying the deeper sense of what we mean to others. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails miserably. The World Wide Web has its pros and its cons – and sometimes the cons can be very heavy, causing ill-feeling and even destruction of friendships, even over words themselves, yes: words and their construction and concepts. Human beings can be strange creatures sometimes.

I wonder how many hours of this God-given life have been spent attempting to re-explain something, even a single point, because one initial phrase was misinterpreted or not understood because no deeper foundation was first explained (or if it was it was not read), and in turn it has coloured what else is written, or what was being said was of such a different character to one's own understanding that it involved too much time to comprehend what was being said, and all this has taken up the time of the reader as well as the writer. It is just not possible to prefix every statement with clarifying issues, because few people have the time to read them, and few people have the time to write them.

While there are clearly spiritual benefits to an exchange of beliefs not least because the Spirit is at work on the minds and hearts of those involved should they listen, I personally find that there are limits to what can be gained. I believe that I need to understand how various groups or collections of mind-sets came to their conclusions and find this intriguing, and yet sometimes disheartening, on this site and certain others, when I hear the God who I know is Love attributed with a lesser love – but such is life. It is good to have day off from work but I believe that the Lord has more things lined up for my life than spending so much time in front of a computer screen. In any situation in life one can lift it up to the Most High and bring benefit to that situation, and in so doing humanity is brought one step closer to God. I believe that it is possible to always be in touch with God even in the busy streets, and in thinking only the highest and the best of the busy throng, so is God able to bless it – every thought that is expressed, every little act, every effort in life should be raised upwards to the highest degree.

I can see that we have very different views of the Creation in Genesis so I will not spend too much time attempting to explain the manner in which I see the Genesis of Life as a parable. I believe many people who use this forum see biblical Genesis as a literal event, however I believe that God has taken what was already in the minds of people at that time concerning the beginning of life, and imbued that belief with Spirit Power, meaning that it now conveys ideas of 'the beginnings of things' (because Truth is so immense and comprehensive that humans can only receive a reflection of an aspect of it). This Genesis story was already known in not dissimilar forms amongst other peoples of that time but God has taken it and filled it with Holy Spirit so that the words and symbols will always reach out to the minds of the seeker and convey something of God and Truth in some manner. God creates out of chaos – He does not destroy but He transmutes, reconciles, renews, like Christ who came not as an iconoclast to destroy but fulfil – He took what was there already and invigorated it, enlivened it with Spirit Power, and recharged a sorrowing people. This is, in my opinion, a universal principle by which the Lord God works throughout His vast and unlimited World of Spirit.

I would just deal with one point. If you read what I said, I tried to impress upon you that I was not speaking about you and your own situation, indeed, I should never want to be in a position to judge another's Spirit, for who am I to know? What I was saying is what was my understanding of obedience and temptation, and I then went into using the first person singular so as not to create any notion that I was speaking about your self specifically. I was saying, in general terms, the type of process that can happen to someone according to how they have lived their life – in my opinion.

It is my opinion (but I have no doubt) that when a person actually sees what the Lord has in store for those who love them, nobody who has felt the deep love of God will feel: "Ah yes, I really deserved all this, yes, God really should have given me all this wonderful life because I truly earned it!" No, not a bit of it, but I rather think that a genuine Spirit will feel: "Oh! It was all true after all, the Lord's promises were thousands of times more real than I ever could have imagined, and now I see that I did absolutely nothing to deserve this, how ungrateful I am. Oh my dear God, please show me some way that I may be able to show my gratitude to you for this undeserved Spiritual Life, I need to give you something back somehow, please provide me with some form of Service that I may show my gratitude to you. Oh how I wish I had tried harder while still in the body of flesh. Oh why did I not try more, how I wish I had tried to be more righteous, more caring, more gentle, more fair, more upright, more compassionate, more like a disciple for You gave me as much chance as them..." This gives the gist of how I see it, and I am not overdrawing the picture in one bit but rather dampening it down, but hope I have covered in as brief a space as possible a very basic and rudimentary aspect of what comes to the spiritually awakened when they receive the fruit of God's promises. What actually happens after this is beyond the remit of this site and one must be polite when visiting.

[rosered]

Our God is a consuming fire. The verse in question speaks of "works" of "wood, hay and stubble" being consumed by the fire. This is about motive, purity of heart, and a God who is gracious enough to consume the things we do for the wrong reasons- but not consume us :o)

  Bro T  was saying all the fires  of Gods consuming and the oven   etc , they all apply in some way as the burning away the things that offend . 

   True that was the scripture quote  being works burned in Adam , wood hay stubble [earthly  curse ]I think of the dragons flood of lies that the earth swallowed up  to Help the woman   , that produces briar and thorns    . to prick us with  and wake us UP!!
   God did not  curse Adam ,but instead "cursed the ground for your sake"  and the works  of vanity  of spiritual immaturity  , Cain   was a tiller of the ground  [Genesis 3:17-19].

  God will not be giving His glory to another  ITS ALL  GOD  and His   amazing saving grace  , we just must learn to obey  our Fathers voice .  saves you from a world of hurt .
  nigh to cursing      Hebrews  6  A Call to Maturity
...7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way....

   The better things that   salvation brings  though obedience
  Jesus Christ is the  PERFECT  obedient SON  even to death

Phil 2 The Attitude of Christ
...7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,

even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,...

  I do believe that if one  sticks to the Bible and   trust the WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE they will not be disappointed   at all , all answers are found in HIS OWN WORD

your own  tag says it   very well   John 

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood

[CST]

Dear CST,

Yeah, but obedience is basically do what you told, when we haven't always been told, and temptation is a way of say desire that implies the object of desire you shouldn't desire, you don't decide that someone else does.

I must ask indulgence, as unfortunately, it is only possible to make 'bold' statements concerning my own understanding because there is not the time or space to explain the deeper background to these conclusions.

God created man in His own Image. God is living within each one in the form of the Higher Self – the Spirit that He generously gave out of Himself, His own Substance when He created individuality, His children. What God has given as a precious jewel for each one to nurture and cherish, is of Himself - and that is who you really are in your innermost being. So yes, You are, in effect, telling yourself what to do and what not to do, You have a plan as to what will bring you the greatest gain for the Spirit, and your inner Spirit is cooperating with the great God to try to bring this about in the best manner possible.

While you sojourn in this world in which there is both good and evil, you have the opportunity to overcome - by faith – what has been hidden from you for your own sake. It is hidden otherwise you could not benefit from faith as you would not need faith if it was not hidden.

If a desire does not bring any gain to the real You, then it will - by default - continue to bind you as the lesser you. As I believe that the Spirit has chosen to undertake this earthly sojourn for its own benefit, then, yes again, the object (or non-object) of your desire is chosen by you as a temptation to overcome (or not if you pass out of this Earth in a state of complete failure in that area).

I should point out that, as far as can be ascertained no one had said, thou shalt not murder to Cain who preceded Israel, he still clearly had picked up the ethical training from somewhere. So where'd it go between him and Isreal?

I am of the belief that the Spirit came from God and was created in a state of Perfection. In God's Plan for the redemption of His children, He has permitted that some – a few - who have freed their Self in a greater measure than the others of that period and location, may take their earthly sojourn among others so that a bright flower may blossom and bring benefit to others who are around.

In this sense, I also believe that just because Jesus had harsh words of criticism for the Pharisees, this does not mean that every single person born as a Pharisee was as selfish and hypocritical – indeed, here and there, I believe, there was one who spoke up to the face of the Pharisees in general and received worldly detrimental effects to himself, even stoning (and again in this context, his own real Self would have gained by a law of compensation).

I did the sort of thing you're describing I prayed for God to help me overcome sins I perceived I had. I did this for years. The sin remains still but my doubt that it is a sin has grown.

It is not for me to say or judge what your own Spirit desires. I am simply pointing out my understanding of the issue. In my experience, it is possible to learn, to a certain degree, through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, something about the spiritual laws which are in effect in this material sphere of action (the physical universe). Coming to some kind of understanding (through faith) of this, then I find that one is able to come to a conclusion as to what is the highest and the best in the sight of the God who is Love, as far as a single issue is concerned. Settling for anything less is, in my opinion, simply putting off what the Spirit within wants to achieve until a later time; and when the body is cast off and the opportunity comes to see what could have been gained spiritually while the eyes were bound, and how difficult this task is now, only regret will be added to the mourning Spirit at its devastating loss.

This is just my opinion, but I do happen to believe it is true. And I cannot blame anyone else but myself for my shortcomings. I certainly cannot blame the Master Christ as He was the perfect Example shining on the horizon at all times, who was subject to temptations no other will ever or could ever be subjected to, and yet overcame all because He would not betray humanity, His higher Self or the Godhead from whence He had come, by giving in to the way of the world. 

As you say, there is a limit to what can be said here, so I apologise if I cannot explain myself more clearly.

Second attempt at continuing this. I've read your later post, I'll, hopefully, respond to that later as I really need to get this done to complete what I was saying but I've noticed that our thoughts are, it seems, much less ill aligned than might have been previously suggested.

I think what you're saying here first speaks to the debate between 'faith in Jesus' and faith of Jesus' the former, more materialistic one is the one that holds we are entirely responsible for our own faith and, especially, in the modern understand, it is believing something unbelievable when there is no evidence to support it and may even be evidence to the contrary.

I don't think that's what faith is, faith is simply trusting that God will do the good He's said He's going to do when we've yet to see it because it's in our future, that and excepting the pledges, which are meant to be evidence of intent, He has given us of that.

I also don't really except the concept of the 'unreal' self which you are implicitly positing against the 'real' self. So where did the real self come from? Well obviously God didn't make it, why would He, He wants the 'real' self He wouldn't make another in conflict with it. And it can't have made its self nothing, except God can do that. So it must be a product of the 'real' self and therefore part of it. So I reject the logic of the 'unreal' self although I do get that humans like me can get conflicted and confused and deceive themselves incredibly there is only 'one' of any of us. I consider it a neglect of responsibility to invoke another version of me which is responsible for all my mistakes.

I do get the general sense behind the statement that desires that don't immediately profit us might seem to be sinful desires. But here's the thing passages like that one in Ecclesiastes and others in the Bible teach that we have a desire for the things of God than cannot be entirely fulfilled in this world. Knowing that to be true and not knowing the exact source of all my desires I can't see how it is possible that I can say for certain any desire is sinful. Even if it would have me do a sinful thing, while I know I should not do the sinful thing an otherwise noble desire may simply be misfiring.

I'm not quite sure here how what you have to say about Jesus' criticism of the Pharisees is pertinent to what I am trying to say. As far as I can tell though the Bible seems to be suggesting that not only was the Spirit created in a state of 'perfection' it remains in one. The flesh being the half that is drawn to sin. But that is not indefinite as is written in that passage I quoted to Rose from Luke. Except does it? Here is what John the Baptist was quoting according to Isaiah:

A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:3-5)

As you can see there are a few differences. Nothing about the crooked being made straight directly, the quote is arranged differently (no idea how that happened) and the salvation has been replace with glory which does not have quite the same implication. How does that happen?

And this brings us back to Paul and the potter. You say to cannot blame Jesus for your failings? Oh, yes you can. You shouldn't and perhaps you don't but you can and to be honest I suspect we all do even if we reprimand ourselves afterwards.

I remember such thoughts kept me beholden to ET for a long time and I suspect it keeps many yet. Your brain may scream to you it is wrong, how dare our God do such a thing, like reading the vessel of destruction Vs. vessel of mercy thing above. But then you think. No it's what the Bible says, it's what God says. God must be right I must be wrong and that's that. But some people don't accept that and they because atheists and other 'enemies' of the faith and some in the faith invent the concept of free will. God didn't really make them that way from the beginning they have chosen to be and they have turned against God. I can find nothing in scripture that really supports free will much that opposes it and plenty that teaches sovereign predestination but people invent the concept of man's free moral agency to attempt to remove the responsibility, the 'blame' for the end of the damned, from God. But He is responsible and people will always find ways to blame God for things if they are so inclined and giving them free will won't take that away.

Here's what Isaiah actually says:

"Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter! Does the clay say to him who fashions it, 'What are you making'? or 'Your work has no handles'? (Isaiah 45:9)

See this is where Paul's getting it but Isaiah isn't finished.

Woe to him who says to a father, 'What are you begetting?' or to a woman, 'With what are you in travail?'" (Isaiah 45:10)

You see Paul misses this part, or just doesn't feel he needs it for what he's saying but it's important as Isaiah concludes:

Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "Will you question me about my children, or command me concerning the work of my hands? I made the earth, and created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host. I have aroused him in righteousness, and I will make straight all his ways; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward," says the LORD of hosts. I have aroused him in righteousness, and I will make straight all his ways; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward," says the LORD of hosts. (Isaiah 45:11-13)

And here, while crookedness is not mentioned it is definitely implied. But there is a common factor here that doesn't show through when Paul applies it. The factor is that when the challenge is made the work is not finished: so the question is premature. It's easy for every single one of us, including me and you, to find things to blame God for while we're still in progress.  What happens when the work is finished and we find there's nothing to object to? Well Isaiah tells us:

"Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed [embarrassed, I think], all who were incensed against him. (Isaiah 45:24]

Easy? To read, yes. To understand, yes. To believe and live, not so much. Not when you've got stuff in your life that gives you great pleasure yet does you, it seems, no good and you've no idea if it's friend or foe or a mixture of both.

[CST]

I don't want to be saved "as through fire" I don't see that as being saved.

That's the only salvation there is.
If you read all the fire/testing/tormenting/pruning verses you will see that each and every of them is about refining in some way. Removing impurities in the refiners fire or with the launderers soap. And of course pruning. The word He always used in connection to punishment.

Yeah, EW has explained this quite well. In this context this is about our works more than about us. Your post here has kind of turned my former two part response into a three part response.

To repeat what is said above 1 John 4:18a reads 'There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear?' What, really? But God is love, and God is perfect so obviously God is perfect love. According to James 2:19 'You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.'

So God is perfect love and perfect love casts out fear so God casts out fear, so why do the demons shudder? And why am I so afraid of God? Why are so many of us so afraid of God?

Well, the answer, of course, is that God, while casting out fear, also casts out sin and that isn't entirely comfortable. Certainly not to a lot of people who are clinging to thinks that they have been told or expect are sin but are very precious to them and they've been told God is going to come along and confiscate all the things they enjoy playing with and then put them in some sort of torture chamber for an indeterminate period for playing with them.

And 1 John 4:18 doesn't help with this fear in the slightest because what it actually says in that verse is: 'There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.' See that, John is actually trying to qualify what were afraid of, which is semi right. The fear is loss and pain wrapped up in the punishment. The point is the quote contains a presumption that the audience will already have got rid of all the sinful things they might have to fear losing or being tormented over leaving only the 'good' stuff God approves of. In reality it's very hard to know that, I'm not sure what things I do and don't do that God is actually approving of but I suspect it's not high. Hence my concern here, I'm not even sure that I've done anything that would constitute works at all but no works is more likely to equal bad fruit than no fruit. John the Baptist tells us: 'Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.' There I am, being with no good works, off I go to Hell then, good reason to fear punishment. But suppose I've got bad works, well they'll be burned up leaving me right back where I started a bad tree that produces bad fruit and we know where they go.

In the same way James 2 says 'For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.' and if faith is what saved then dead faith condemns as much as unrighteousness. Burned worked = no works.

My concern here is that Paul somehow seems to be implying the work will be burnt (you will suffer loss) but you will personally be saved. Which seems inconsistent with everything else that's being said.

:CryBaby: Thanks for trying to understand Rose unfortunately I don't think you can be cause I am a :fool:

You'll probably struggle to understand what I was saying because I wasn't finished. For time purposes I had to split my response between my answer to you and my answer to lastpost. And then because I am a :fool: while I was typing that reply and in another tab getting more Bible references I managed to closed the tap I was in here and lost everything I had written which was a lot. I don't have time to write it all again today so the above post is currently worthless because it won't make sense in the way it should. Clearly God did not want that post finishing today. Maybe another day.

I so thank you for trying   though Chris  , an am sorry   it      was lost! :sigh:

  This has happened to me as well and   I also   am a :fool:  than

God willing you will be even more clear the next time around   and be able to finish it  perfectly ....

No, it's not that you're a fool. I am not a fool because I did it, I did it because I am a fool. That doesn't mean there aren't other reasons for doing it.

Thanks for you post I know want to aplogize for how I opened the original post that confused you, I don't think that was a polite way to open a reply.

I hope then new version is clearer, though I don't believe that it's perfect.

Our God is a consuming fire. The verse in question speaks of "works" of "wood, hay and stubble" being consumed by the fire. This is about motive, purity of heart, and a God who is gracious enough to consume the things we do for the wrong reasons- but not consume us :o)

Thanks, this helped me formulate my own response.

Dear CST,

Blessings. I see you are busy. This internet medium is far from ideal for relaying the deeper sense of what we mean to others. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails miserably. The World Wide Web has its pros and its cons – and sometimes the cons can be very heavy, causing ill-feeling and even destruction of friendships, even over words themselves, yes: words and their construction and concepts. Human beings can be strange creatures sometimes.

I wonder how many hours of this God-given life have been spent attempting to re-explain something, even a single point, because one initial phrase was misinterpreted or not understood because no deeper foundation was first explained (or if it was it was not read), and in turn it has coloured what else is written, or what was being said was of such a different character to one's own understanding that it involved too much time to comprehend what was being said, and all this has taken up the time of the reader as well as the writer. It is just not possible to prefix every statement with clarifying issues, because few people have the time to read them, and few people have the time to write them.

While there are clearly spiritual benefits to an exchange of beliefs not least because the Spirit is at work on the minds and hearts of those involved should they listen, I personally find that there are limits to what can be gained. I believe that I need to understand how various groups or collections of mind-sets came to their conclusions and find this intriguing, and yet sometimes disheartening, on this site and certain others, when I hear the God who I know is Love attributed with a lesser love – but such is life. It is good to have day off from work but I believe that the Lord has more things lined up for my life than spending so much time in front of a computer screen. In any situation in life one can lift it up to the Most High and bring benefit to that situation, and in so doing humanity is brought one step closer to God. I believe that it is possible to always be in touch with God even in the busy streets, and in thinking only the highest and the best of the busy throng, so is God able to bless it – every thought that is expressed, every little act, every effort in life should be raised upwards to the highest degree.

I can see that we have very different views of the Creation in Genesis so I will not spend too much time attempting to explain the manner in which I see the Genesis of Life as a parable. I believe many people who use this forum see biblical Genesis as a literal event, however I believe that God has taken what was already in the minds of people at that time concerning the beginning of life, and imbued that belief with Spirit Power, meaning that it now conveys ideas of 'the beginnings of things' (because Truth is so immense and comprehensive that humans can only receive a reflection of an aspect of it). This Genesis story was already known in not dissimilar forms amongst other peoples of that time but God has taken it and filled it with Holy Spirit so that the words and symbols will always reach out to the minds of the seeker and convey something of God and Truth in some manner. God creates out of chaos – He does not destroy but He transmutes, reconciles, renews, like Christ who came not as an iconoclast to destroy but fulfil – He took what was there already and invigorated it, enlivened it with Spirit Power, and recharged a sorrowing people. This is, in my opinion, a universal principle by which the Lord God works throughout His vast and unlimited World of Spirit.

I would just deal with one point. If you read what I said, I tried to impress upon you that I was not speaking about you and your own situation, indeed, I should never want to be in a position to judge another's Spirit, for who am I to know? What I was saying is what was my understanding of obedience and temptation, and I then went into using the first person singular so as not to create any notion that I was speaking about your self specifically. I was saying, in general terms, the type of process that can happen to someone according to how they have lived their life – in my opinion.

It is my opinion (but I have no doubt) that when a person actually sees what the Lord has in store for those who love them, nobody who has felt the deep love of God will feel: "Ah yes, I really deserved all this, yes, God really should have given me all this wonderful life because I truly earned it!" No, not a bit of it, but I rather think that a genuine Spirit will feel: "Oh! It was all true after all, the Lord's promises were thousands of times more real than I ever could have imagined, and now I see that I did absolutely nothing to deserve this, how ungrateful I am. Oh my dear God, please show me some way that I may be able to show my gratitude to you for this undeserved Spiritual Life, I need to give you something back somehow, please provide me with some form of Service that I may show my gratitude to you. Oh how I wish I had tried harder while still in the body of flesh. Oh why did I not try more, how I wish I had tried to be more righteous, more caring, more gentle, more fair, more upright, more compassionate, more like a disciple for You gave me as much chance as them..." This gives the gist of how I see it, and I am not overdrawing the picture in one bit but rather dampening it down, but hope I have covered in as brief a space as possible a very basic and rudimentary aspect of what comes to the spiritually awakened when they receive the fruit of God's promises. What actually happens after this is beyond the remit of this site and one must be polite when visiting.

Thanks very much for that. I manage to estrange myself from just about everyone on t'internet because I'm so bad at being good at that or good at being bad at that or something. So that's helpful. Thank you. At the same time I think I'm better discussing scripture online then in speech where I'd just get tied up. I also share your belief about computer time although I'm getting less good at practicing it.

I don't really think we see the Creation that differently. I see it allegorically too but I think that makes what I wrote enhanced by that not reduced. If it was understood literally there's no need to read the union between the spirit and the flesh as anything other than a historical matter and so don't need to read in the later symbolic use of the terms. That said there a millions of ways of reading allegory not all of them mutually exclusive. I like the idea of Jesus coming to fix not destroy or expel. I like that it suggests, as I prefer to believe, most things we enjoy we enjoy because they are good but get abused not because they are inherently weapons or tools of evil.

Thanks for the clarification of your position I was trying to do similar yet I had to be clear for what I was trying to argue and there are certain, shall I say 'traps' that people many of us are inclined to fall into.

I suspect that last quote I posted to you from Isaiah states similar sentiments to those in my last response to you.

Our God is a consuming fire. The verse in question speaks of "works" of "wood, hay and stubble" being consumed by the fire. This is about motive, purity of heart, and a God who is gracious enough to consume the things we do for the wrong reasons- but not consume us :o)

  Bro T  was saying all the fires  of Gods consuming and the oven   etc , they all apply in some way as the burning away the things that offend . 

   True that was the scripture quote  being works burned in Adam , wood hay stubble [earthly  curse ]I think of the dragons flood of lies that the earth swallowed up  to Help the woman   , that produces briar and thorns    . to prick us with  and wake us UP!!
   God did not  curse Adam ,but instead "cursed the ground for your sake"  and the works  of vanity  of spiritual immaturity  , Cain   was a tiller of the ground  [Genesis 3:17-19].

  God will not be giving His glory to another  ITS ALL  GOD  and His   amazing saving grace  , we just must learn to obey  our Fathers voice .  saves you from a world of hurt .
  nigh to cursing      Hebrews  6  A Call to Maturity
...7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way....

   The better things that   salvation brings  though obedience
  Jesus Christ is the  PERFECT  obedient SON  even to death

Phil 2 The Attitude of Christ
...7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,

even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,...

  I do believe that if one  sticks to the Bible and   trust the WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE they will not be disappointed   at all , all answers are found in HIS OWN WORD

your own  tag says it   very well   John 

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood

Hi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.

Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.

'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.

I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.

[eaglesway]

Where does it say God's last word on the subject was the ejection of Adam from the garden?

As a matter of fact, it wasnt, and thats Good News :o)

The reason was given "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever", and in Adam, man can still not eat of the tree of life, or enter the garden.

But Jesus promises that the tree of life and entrance into the garden is made available to all who believe.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Rev 2:7

In Rev 21.....

Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

..... We see that the tree of life will be available to heal the nations. This is consistent with the message of God's purpose in the ages to restore the whole creation.

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8

5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Rev 21

[rosered]

Hi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.

Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.

'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.

I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.

  Thank you so much Chris , 
You are very polite and kind and it is appreciated  so much by me  and trying to  share   what is in our hearts !!

  Clearly  you are correct  in the term vanity  in Hebrew the term  as  breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance  and is  considered  as  futile    in todays terms

  I thought of Abel    when you  replied to me  ironically his name means the same

Abel

Meaning: a breath, vapor, or vanity / Hebrew: "Hebel" (Hebhel).


This was the name of the second son of Adam and Eve. He was put to death by his brother Cain (Genesis 4:1-16).

On the Sabbath, each of them offered up to God   Abel from the first-fruits of his labors. and Cain what was given  last , I believe this has meaning because He did not consider God first   and give his firstfruits   and that was why his  offering was rejected ,
  many  say it was because it was of the earth , but I do not think folks   study the words meanings well   and error  in them

Cain, as a tiller of the ground, 3So it came about in the course of time  end

end, at the end of (of time)

end (of space) that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.... Abel, as a shepherd, offered from the best of his flock.


I am convinced  Cains offering would have been accepted  if it was his best  and first-fruits  , but we can see this cause jealousy to kill  his own brother

   and  so death was his    work or fruits of his doings .

I understand    Lastposts    speech of the higher self being the Spiritual man  born from above   , and lower self as being the man of sin   carnal and beastly in nature   and of the earth , so not to take offense by his expressing his own way of   speaking .


even Paul calls it the inner man   being  renewed daily    2 Cor 4 Treasures in Jars of Clay
...15For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

16Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying,

yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,

I am one who also understands Paul's    speech better than I used to   by the grace of God  , and nothing else compares .

  How can Abels   name  mean    vanity ,  being spiritual    ?

I have considered this   wholeheartedly      that when Eve  conceived in  child bearing   ,    she has twins  cain , a man from the Lord   and Abel   a breath  ,   one conception and two births  ,  out of the same  womb / mind / heart  etc.    and mother of the living   , being saved though child bearing     
You would have to actually read  this  in context     and this all may sound silly   to some , but there is a purity and simplicity in Christ that is  a  beautiful  treasure    and very truthful  and all connect to  other verses  giving us a   Whole   picture or concept   to consider

  So when you consider Cain with other  scriptures     they describe    his works  and  name and meaning  with  end results

  we can do the same with Abel    , and why is it that Able   is breath and vanity   and   futile ?

None of this can be figured out     with easy answers and  plain truth  , but searched out   and  dug into  ,  some things I have  just considered  helpful 

Was Abel's blood cried out from the ground and  yet he is dead  and  wanting revenge    , to me this is spiritual immaturity   

Christ is the full maturity in that when His blood was  poured out     He  cried out to God on the cross    , forgive them Father  they don't know what they are doing

Jesus Christ is the name  above all names under heaven  by which we must be saved though
His teaching is to forgive and love our enemies   , pray for them ,  sure signs of  spiritual maturity  [the fulness of Gods Spirit  7 spirits of GOD ] COMPLETE  WORK OF THE CROSS

Paul said we are to count it as joy when persecuted and   in my own spiritual immaturity  it is a fail  of the test  , so  knowing this  and asking  for more of Gods grace   
same as He had done with the thorn in his flesh being   a messenger of satan to buffet him , strike him  on the cheek to turn the other one  also ?  I think so  ,,,
because of all the  revelations as to not get exalted in his own spirit   and pride would ruin what God    working  in him  had  done in him already .

   he died daily  in the sense of  life to us but death  to him , having to  keep  pushing forward  laying down the gospel of Jesus Christ as a foundation  , as the  ones under the law were opposing  so greatly     

But they did not understand  fully the impact of the law of death  being if you broke one you broke them all  , so everything they were doing was vanity and futile

  and only though Jesus Christ would any fruit   to God as LIVING and good would be accepted  ...

  When Paul was  changed  from Saul   , he learned many  spiritual things  , beautiful things and  shared them with us    , to help us  all whom will  listen  ,   for me it is the same   Spirit of Prophecy  and  voice of many waters that flow freely from above   ,  that  being the testimony of JESUS    , he was carrying with him in his own heart    as the others did also   , Revealing Christ to us  ...

We are not to hold any  thing high but GOD HIMSELF   ,    John was  an example of how we also worship   "messengers  and teachers   and folks of the WORD OF GOD  , but it is error        , we are to worship the HOLY HEAVENLY FATHER IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH /WORD ONLY

How can this be done ?

    Rev 19 The Marriage of the Lamb
...9Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God." 10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

rev 22 Jesus is Coming
...8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God." 10  And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near....

     We learn  there is no "magic   formula "    or ways to God  but by Him only can we begin to grasp     the WORD OF LIFE BY THE SPIRIT OF LIFE  .
He will complete what He Alone started long ago   and all glory is His    , we can be  ever so thankful  for this  truth .

I thought of leaving the form  for awhile   because so many pressing things  of earthly   junk    to deal with , but the  increase and   rewards of Gods love , mercy and grace keep me   pressing on  in to it  , you are one whom helps me to keep on keeping on   , just by your kind and   thoughtful posts   and  acknowledging  a sharing    Chris     , that we are not so divided in thoughts after all

not a one of us  can on our own  have all truth but we are to strengthen one another and comfort one another with His  WORD OF LIFE    , When God "quickens "  it by His grace   

    we have two places that speak  as iniquity abounds /lawlessness increases   our love will grow colder  and its truth .


Witnessing to All Nations
...11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved....

Matthew 24:11
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Matthew 24:13
but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

James 1:21
Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

Revelation 2:4
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.

    Receiving Gods grace      though the Lord Jesus Christ    would allow   grace  to abound the more   , our only Hope alive is in HIM  living though us , His Life for ours  , what would a man exchange for his  life / being / soul ? what good is it to gain the whole world and loose your     life / being / soul ?

Romans    5 

  Death in Adam, Life in Christ


...19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase;

but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,


21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Jesus Christ said I AM THE RESURRECTION  and the LIFE   

  John 11 Jesus Comforts Martha and Mary
...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

25Jesus said to her,


"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

  Blessed is he whom dies in the Lord   rev 14 ...12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

labors  are hardships    , but the deeds are the  righteous  acts of the saints or holy ones   found in CHRIST   OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS [ACT OF THE CROSS]
Forgiving and loving    keeping no record of wrong doing

  the dead in CHRIST  RISE FIRST and those    alive will be  living the Christ life     in the here and now to me and never die !!   

    1thes 4 The Return of the Lord
...15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord,

will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,

with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God,

and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.....

Jesus  said it , those whom die in the Lord   will live   and those  found alive in Him  never die    and Paul revealed it  further  .

I believe   Christ is the end  for those whom believe and obey HIS  WORD ,  before all being made alive and presented to the FATHER        THE LIVING GOD    AND ALL IN ALL ..

many men  find this impossible   to believe , but with God all things are possible      !! :HeartThrob:

MATT 19  25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"

26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

27Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"...

  ALL THINGS ARE YOURS   1 COR 3 Worldly Wisdom is Foolishness to God
...20and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." 21So then let no one boast in men.

For all things belong to you,

22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "
He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless."



So then let no one boast in men.

For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

It a lot to take in   , and took a long time for it to sink in deeply    and yet there is still more of "all things "to come    those experiences  change us  in many forms and ways   and we learn  of somthing   very valuable   though them all   ...

[rosered]

Where does it say God's last word on the subject was the ejection of Adam from the garden?

As a matter of fact, it wasnt, and thats Good News :o)

The reason was given "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever", and in Adam, man can still not eat of the tree of life, or enter the garden.

But Jesus promises that the tree of life and entrance into the garden is made available to all who believe.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Rev 2:7

In Rev 21.....

Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

..... We see that the tree of life will be available to heal the nations. This is consistent with the message of God's purpose in the ages to restore the whole creation.

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8

5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Rev 21

  :thumbsup:    :HeartThrob:

[CST]

Where does it say God's last word on the subject was the ejection of Adam from the garden?

As a matter of fact, it wasnt, and thats Good News :o)

The reason was given "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever", and in Adam, man can still not eat of the tree of life, or enter the garden.

But Jesus promises that the tree of life and entrance into the garden is made available to all who believe.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Rev 2:7

In Rev 21.....

Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

..... We see that the tree of life will be available to heal the nations. This is consistent with the message of God's purpose in the ages to restore the whole creation.

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8

5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Rev 21

:sigh: :doh:

See how I say something and then you read it that I've said the exact opposite thing, this is my problem how does this happen? We think the same we're saying the same thing. But this is what Ecclesiastes says:

'One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.' (1:4)

'There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.' (1:11)

'For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.' (1:18)

'For all his days are sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity.' (2:23)

'For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?' (3:20-22)

'Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.' (4:2)

'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.' (9:5-6)

You referring to the New Testament, 'the Teacher' (Solomon according to tradition but I'm not so sure) belonged to the time of the Old Testament he didn't Christ's Gospel so wrote death as the final end to all flesh. That's what he's writing here, so much in Ecclesiastes seems to contradict other received wisdom in the Bible which makes me find it hard to take it anything other than ironically in the light of the Gospel.

The Teacher asks 'Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?' as Christians we can answer this question, here asked rhetorically, WE CAN! We can affirm, as this thread intends, to do the Gospel of Jesus and UR which seems so much better than is offered here.

Hi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.

Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.

'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.

I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.

Hi, Rose, sorry I had to delete your post again.

Yeah, I am aware that Abel comes from that word and it leads to the thought you're meant to conclude, possibly, Abel is so called because he died so soon. Murdered by an evil brother because he was evil and resented that his brother was good. OK, that's a fundamentalist interpretation I know there are numerous interpretations to this story.

I'm not sure if it says in the Bible that Cain and Abel made their offerings on the Sabbath I need to check where it gives that detail. I think your interpretation of why Cain's offering was not accepted is a popular one if you know the other one more.

But it's easy to read about the 'old man' pr other terms Paul uses to describe the sinful self and think we know what he meant. But it's a deep psychological thinking on some words on a page of a letter sent to a church. How do we know whether any of the recipients understood it as he wrote it. Isn't the implication in the letter that Paul has decided who his own 'old man' is and put it is a box in his head so he can so confidently say he's overcoming it. Well, if he's defining it of course he can say that. I'm not saying he's wrong I think he's probably right but just because it's true to him that does mean it's true to everyone in the same way.

I don't think you can call Abel's blood calling out from the ground spiritually immaturity because literally it isn't. It's a metaphor for justice and God is using is as such. Abel's blood is inert it doesn't actually call for anything.

Thank you for the acknowledgement of support, I fear that I don't really get the time to deal with all these messages as much as I should but I like that you try to communicate with me to and hope you stick around. And I'll try to do the same and keep up with what happening on all the boards, which is hard, as my time is short.

[rosered]

Quote
Hi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.

Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.

'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.

I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.

Hi, Rose, sorry I had to delete your post again.

Yeah, I am aware that Abel comes from that word and it leads to the thought you're meant to conclude, possibly, Abel is so called because he died so soon. Murdered by an evil brother because he was evil and resented that his brother was good. OK, that's a fundamentalist interpretation I know there are numerous interpretations to this story.

I'm not sure if it says in the Bible that Cain and Abel made their offerings on the Sabbath I need to check where it gives that detail. I think your interpretation of why Cain's offering was not accepted is a popular one if you know the other one more.

But it's easy to read about the 'old man' pr other terms Paul uses to describe the sinful self and think we know what he meant. But it's a deep psychological thinking on some words on a page of a letter sent to a church. How do we know whether any of the recipients understood it as he wrote it. Isn't the implication in the letter that Paul has decided who his own 'old man' is and put it is a box in his head so he can so confidently say he's overcoming it. Well, if he's defining it of course he can say that. I'm not saying he's wrong I think he's probably right but just because it's true to him that does mean it's true to everyone in the same way.

I don't think you can call Abel's blood calling out from the ground spiritually immaturity because literally it isn't. It's a metaphor for justice and God is using is as such. Abel's blood is inert it doesn't actually call for anything.

Thank you for the acknowledgement of support, I fear that I don't really get the time to deal with all these messages as much as I should but I like that you try to communicate with me to and hope you stick around. And I'll try to do the same and keep up with what happening on all the boards, which is hard, as my time is short.

  It is fine Chris ,
       So sorry for    these  long posts ! :sigh:

  I am learning     what TRUTH is   same as you ... as well all are trying  in the same  manner  , thanks for bearing   and trying  :HeartThrob:.

  Thanks for  you thoughts on   Abel .


His works were righteous      as the scriptures say it is true .

   I was  just going  by the thoughts of    those seeking restitution  for being wronged ,  most go by the law   of sin and death      as we see by the   old testament scriptures    the jot and tittles of the  letters of the  law  that kills  in scriptures     and sabbath rest was the  7th day after all their ''work''   and than offering to the Lord   ,  that is  so subtle   , so you  may not want to bother   , but thanks just the same .

back to why    I called   in the beginning as spiritual immaturity     babes   being the breath or spirit  as short lived

  they judge not unless you be judged , GOD says vengeance is His  and He knows all hearts  all to well .




  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

Keeping this  much shorter and  hoping to   be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong   we  know , not on purpose though .

[jugghead]

back to why    I called   in the beginning as spiritual immaturity     babes   being the breath or spirit  as short lived

I agree with you here rose

  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

Keeping this  much shorter and  hoping to   be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong   we  know , not on purpose though .

:iagree: also I agree with you here, and what I see as the physical manifestation of this in this world is when we try to speak to those who believe in ET about UR and they refuse to listen, this is our blood, Christ's blood, Abel's blood ......all the blood of the righteous crying out "When will they understand His true nature?" "When will they see?"

[rosered]

back to why    I called   in the beginning as spiritual immaturity     babes   being the breath or spirit  as short lived

I agree with you here rose

  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

Keeping this  much shorter and  hoping to   be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong   we  know , not on purpose though .

:iagree: also I agree with you here, and what I see as the physical manifestation of this in this world is when we try to speak to those who believe in ET about UR and they refuse to listen, this is our blood, Christ's blood, Abel's blood ......all the blood of the righteous crying out "When will they understand His true nature?" "When will they see?"

  Thank you for the confirmation Jugg ,
     Most times we feel all alone in   our struggles to express   whats in our hearts ...   :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

back to why    I called   in the beginning as spiritual immaturity     babes   being the breath or spirit  as short lived

I agree with you here rose

  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

Keeping this  much shorter and  hoping to   be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong   we  know , not on purpose though .

:iagree: also I agree with you here, and what I see as the physical manifestation of this in this world is when we try to speak to those who believe in ET about UR and they refuse to listen, this is our blood, Christ's blood, Abel's blood ......all the blood of the righteous crying out "When will they understand His true nature?" "When will they see?"

  Thank you for the confirmation Jugg ,
     Most times we feel all alone in   our struggles to express   whats in our hearts ...   :HeartThrob:

It is an honor for me rose ..... to know who He is in ourselves, how He has transformed us is to see Him in the hearts of others, for our words (His Word) comes from the depths of the heart

[GodIsLove]

I just want to say I love you all!

Reading everyone sharing their thoughts and hearts so earnestly with one another.

This site is awesome. God is working within all of you even if you don't think so, and I gleaned much from reading this thread  :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

I just want to say I love you all!

Reading everyone sharing their thoughts and hearts so earnestly with one another.

This site is awesome. God is working within all of you even if you don't think so, and I gleaned much from reading this thread  :HeartThrob:

I love all  and the all  sharing  as well     GodisLove   :HeartThrob:

I really liked CST    answer to Eaglesway  but did not want to disrupt their   exchange  ..
 
Much blessing  Jugg!!

[jugghead]

Just wanted to share what I wrote in my journal this morning, fits here because this is where it began .....

April 22, 2016
     Yesterday when I was on Tentmaker, Rosered had said somethings that I totally agreed with for the reason I have been shown these things also .... I sent a confirmation of agreement to Rosered and she replied with a thank you for the confirmation, which I replied as "it was an honor for me."

     Afterward I started to think about the like-mindedness of this forum and that was confirmed when I read the reply of GodisLove about the love that they experience on this board.

     It wasn't until this morning while I was thinking about these things again that He let me experience the heart of these two loving people. When what Rose had said was placed deeper into my own heart, He showed me something that is talked about (experienced) a lot on the forum, it was expanded and was given even more life this morning .....that being: the inadequacies of trying to explain through mere words what is known and felt within the depths of our own soul.

     The words of 2knowhim (Scherryl) came back to mind, (bless her heart and I rejoice that she is now in the presence of our Lord). She explained to me, and I am sure many others, how the Lord showed her the subject of decay. She used the example of her artwork in that as long as it stayed in her mind/heart/soul, it was not subjected to the elements that could cause it to decay.

     This same example is how He showed me this morning .....  with what Rose had said ..... that when what comes out of our heart is tried to be explained to another, our words become inadequate to describe that which the heart feels ..... in other words ..... How can you describe the indescribable? Our words when spoken to another are only words, but unless another has experienced exactly what you have, our words make it out to be less than it is in our own heart,  but what is truly amazing is that when the other HAS experienced exactly what you have, NO WORDS ARE NECESSARY ..... How awesome is our Lord.

     Thank you Lord for bringing me to this forum, to cross paths with others ..... to experience the hearts of others. Amen

[eaglesway]

Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 1Pet 1:22

And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Ro 5:5

:cloud9:

[CST]

Quote
Hi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.

Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.

'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.

I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.

Hi, Rose, sorry I had to delete your post again.

Yeah, I am aware that Abel comes from that word and it leads to the thought you're meant to conclude, possibly, Abel is so called because he died so soon. Murdered by an evil brother because he was evil and resented that his brother was good. OK, that's a fundamentalist interpretation I know there are numerous interpretations to this story.

I'm not sure if it says in the Bible that Cain and Abel made their offerings on the Sabbath I need to check where it gives that detail. I think your interpretation of why Cain's offering was not accepted is a popular one if you know the other one more.

But it's easy to read about the 'old man' pr other terms Paul uses to describe the sinful self and think we know what he meant. But it's a deep psychological thinking on some words on a page of a letter sent to a church. How do we know whether any of the recipients understood it as he wrote it. Isn't the implication in the letter that Paul has decided who his own 'old man' is and put it is a box in his head so he can so confidently say he's overcoming it. Well, if he's defining it of course he can say that. I'm not saying he's wrong I think he's probably right but just because it's true to him that does mean it's true to everyone in the same way.

I don't think you can call Abel's blood calling out from the ground spiritually immaturity because literally it isn't. It's a metaphor for justice and God is using is as such. Abel's blood is inert it doesn't actually call for anything.

Thank you for the acknowledgement of support, I fear that I don't really get the time to deal with all these messages as much as I should but I like that you try to communicate with me to and hope you stick around. And I'll try to do the same and keep up with what happening on all the boards, which is hard, as my time is short.

  It is fine Chris ,
       So sorry for    these  long posts ! :sigh:

  I am learning     what TRUTH is   same as you ... as well all are trying  in the same  manner  , thanks for bearing   and trying  :HeartThrob:.

  Thanks for  you thoughts on   Abel .


His works were righteous      as the scriptures say it is true .

   I was  just going  by the thoughts of    those seeking restitution  for being wronged ,  most go by the law   of sin and death      as we see by the   old testament scriptures    the jot and tittles of the  letters of the  law  that kills  in scriptures     and sabbath rest was the  7th day after all their "work"   and than offering to the Lord   ,  that is  so subtle   , so you  may not want to bother   , but thanks just the same .

back to why    I called   in the beginning as spiritual immaturity     babes   being the breath or spirit  as short lived

  they judge not unless you be judged , GOD says vengeance is His  and He knows all hearts  all to well .




  The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting  , same SABBATH DAY   as being in the   Lord   JESUS CHRIST  ,  and that sounds nuts but   that is the  conclusion   ,  HE is the Lord of Sabbath  Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

Keeping this  much shorter and  hoping to   be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong   we  know , not on purpose though .

Thanks, going from what I said in my other post Abel's sacrifice was probably faultless and had the necessary value while Cain's was just cobbled together for the stuff he didn't want for himself.

Yeah, Abel might well be under the alter but again that may be somewhat symbolic I do expect to see any real horseman of the apocalypse (usually misrepresented) riding the world anytime soon, but some symbolic ones make turn up.

You don't need to apologize for anything, it's hard for me but I like reading what you have to say, struggle though I do.

I just want to say I love you all!

Reading everyone sharing their thoughts and hearts so earnestly with one another.

This site is awesome. God is working within all of you even if you don't think so, and I gleaned much from reading this thread  :HeartThrob:

Thank you, GiL.  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  God bless your heart Chris!!    :HeartThrob:

  I agree ,    it is all very symbolic in meaning and Spiritual in nature   for sure !! :dsunny:

I am trying not to  post a multitude of words  as fools are known to do . :laughing7:

[CST]

 :laugh: Ta, Rose, clever Rose, wise Rose.

[rosered]

:laugh: Ta, Rose, clever Rose, wise Rose.

  Ya got me   Chris !     :friendstu:   ,  ha ! :LH: 

[marie glen]

...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..