I thought it might be useful to have a thread of short little affirmations, conclusions and short verses about UR, which can be easily remembered and used (repeated:)) [Put into images for social networking?]
I'll do the first post of an 'affirmation' came to my mind to get us started... :smile:
The Kingdom of God is within all the believers. One day it will be within all. And thus, the world will be ruled by the Kingdom, and the Kingdom will be its substance. God (surely?) can only be Perfect. Therefor there is no other probable outcome.
Postscript/edit - therefor there is no other possible outcome!
Laz is right! :thumbsup:
Marie, clinch that by using "possible" instead of "probable." :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
Quote from: marie glen on February 08, 2016, 06:19:48 PM
The Kingdom of God is within all the believers. One day it will be within all. And thus, the world will be ruled by the Kingdom, and the Kingdom will be its substance. God (surely?) can only be Perfect. Therefor there is no other probable outcome.
:thumbsup:
Amen !! :HeartThrob: ALL SHALL PRAISE YOU GOD Psalms 145
21
My mouth will speak the praise of the Lord,
And all flesh will bless His holy name forever and ever.
Good idea, Marie!
Every knee will someday and bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God, and the Father has gone so far as to swear that everyone will take an oath to Him.
God is summing up all things into Jesus Christ as the Head of creation, and this shall consummate with the Father Himself being All in All.
Genesis 1:1 & John 1:3
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [no mention of God creating Hell]
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [if God didn't make Hell, nobody else did, either]
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
God is love (1 John 3:8)
Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8)
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1John 2:2
1 John 1:5 "God is light. And in Him is no darkness at all."
Awesome thread, Marie :thumbsup:
Thank you GodIsLove.. I'm loving the posts! And love how He is love and love never (ever) fails! :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Matthew 19:26 - "..with God ALL things ARE possible." :smile:
1 Timothy 4:10 . 'That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those that believe'.
:dsunny:
God's angel declared that, Jesus being born as
LORD and
SAVIOUR would be
GOOD NEWS that would bring
GREAT JOY to
ALL people.
Quote
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Amen!!!
.....(to all of the above! and below! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: )
(Rev. 5:13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.
Doesn't leave anything out imo.
CHB
Amen! :thumbsup: that has to be one of the prettiest verses in the bible!
Luke 13:20-21 - "And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? ...It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal til it was all leavened."
Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!
For His mercy endures forever. (Psalm 136:1)
aha! :thumbsup: :banana:
Romans 11:32 - "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
2 Peter 2:1 'But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them...
this astounding verse says that even these 'false teachers' and 'false prophets' have been bought by Jesus...by His blood. Jesus blood covers even the worst heretics :dsunny:
1 John 4:8 God is love.
Love is the essence of God's character. Love permeates all God is and all God does. Love is not the way God is at certain moments and then not at other moments. Whatever God is doing is always rooted in God's essential character as love. Everything God does is loving, even though the love may not be readily apparent to each person.
That God is in essence love, and not a mixture of love and other things, I regard as the most important conclusion which can be reached about God. For if God is not pure love, but some mixture of love and other motivations, then we cannot ever be confident about the actions of our creator.
Fortunately, if we want to know what love is, we are provided a detailed definition in the following passage from 1st Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 13: 4-8
4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends.
This passage defines the character of love, which bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and never ends. If God is love, and if this definition of love is accurate, then here we have a Biblical description of the love of God towards each and every soul. God loves each soul. God bears all for each soul. God believes all for each soul. God hopes all for each soul. God endures all for each soul. God never gives up on a soul. Each soul is tremendously valuable to God. God does not do this because God has to do it. God does it because it is God's nature. It's who God is.
Taking all of this into consideration, if there is ever a case in which God completely and utterly gives up on a soul, at that point we could still say many things about God, but we could no longer, I believe, say God is love.
Another characteristic of love is how love extends itself even towards enemies. This is the kind of love Jesus said characterized the love of God.
Matthew 5:43-45
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven;
Jesus here teaches his followers to love their enemies in order to be like their Father in heaven. Loving enemies is not something Jesus commanded only because it was the right thing to do in some abstract way. Loving enemies, in the eyes of Jesus, is the right thing to do because it is what the Father in heaven does.
We infer from this that God is an enemy lover. This further confirms how God loves us unconditionally, whether we are now in the state of being God's friend or enemy.
Conclusion: God, being in essence love, loves us unconditionally. Nothing we do makes God love us less. Nothing we do makes God love us more. God loves us not because of who we are, but because of who God is. Nothing will ever stop God from loving us, because God is love and love bears all, believes all, hopes all, endures all, and never ends.
1 Samuel 14:6c(?) "Nothing can hinder YHWH from saving by many or by few."
Eventually He elected to save the many (all) the few (one). I'm surprised I don't see this more often it seems very clear in what it says and equally seems very favourable to our thinking.
Quote from: darryl on February 21, 2016, 02:51:20 AM
1 John 4:8 God is love.
Love is the essence of God's character. Love permeates all God is and all God does. Love is not the way God is at certain moments and then not at other moments. Whatever God is doing is always rooted in God's essential character as love. Everything God does is loving, even though the love may not be readily apparent to each person.
That God is in essence love, and not a mixture of love and other things, I regard as the most important conclusion which can be reached about God. For if God is not pure love, but some mixture of love and other motivations, then we cannot ever be confident about the actions of our creator.
Fortunately, if we want to know what love is, we are provided a detailed definition in the following passage from 1st Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 13: 4-8
4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends.
This passage defines the character of love, which bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and never ends. If God is love, and if this definition of love is accurate, then here we have a Biblical description of the love of God towards each and every soul. God loves each soul. God bears all for each soul. God believes all for each soul. God hopes all for each soul. God endures all for each soul. God never gives up on a soul. Each soul is tremendously valuable to God. God does not do this because God has to do it. God does it because it is God's nature. It's who God is.
Taking all of this into consideration, if there is ever a case in which God completely and utterly gives up on a soul, at that point we could still say many things about God, but we could no longer, I believe, say God is love.
Another characteristic of love is how love extends itself even towards enemies. This is the kind of love Jesus said characterized the love of God.
Matthew 5:43-45
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven;
Jesus here teaches his followers to love their enemies in order to be like their Father in heaven. Loving enemies is not something Jesus commanded only because it was the right thing to do in some abstract way. Loving enemies, in the eyes of Jesus, is the right thing to do because it is what the Father in heaven does.
We infer from this that God is an enemy lover. This further confirms how God loves us unconditionally, whether we are now in the state of being God's friend or enemy.
Conclusion: God, being in essence love, loves us unconditionally. Nothing we do makes God love us less. Nothing we do makes God love us more. God loves us not because of who we are, but because of who God is. Nothing will ever stop God from loving us, because God is love and love bears all, believes all, hopes all, endures all, and never ends.
:thumbsup:
When Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent, you will die in your sins" he didn't add "and you will be lost forever."
[Awesome posts! :thumbsup: ..and affirmations! I never noticed 1 Samuel 14:6c! and how that's so true about 2 Peter 2:1! :thumbsup: ]
Thanks glad you liked it I'd started to wonder if I was misunderstanding it never having seen anyone else using it.
Also agrees with the 2 Peter 2:1 but it's hard to spot because the natural tendency is to see false teachers as not saved at all. I'm still not sure from the passage they're not in the saved later camp though. That's harder to tell.
Quote from: marie glen on March 05, 2016, 04:16:32 PM
When Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent, you will die in your sins" he didn't add "and you will be lost forever."
[Awesome posts! :thumbsup: ..and affirmations! I never noticed 1 Samuel 14:6c! and how that's so true about 2 Peter 2:1! :thumbsup: ]
EXCELLENT observation marie :thumbsup: :iagree:
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 07:23:05 PM
Quote from: marie glen on March 05, 2016, 04:16:32 PM
When Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent, you will die in your sins" he didn't add "and you will be lost forever."
[Awesome posts! :thumbsup: ..and affirmations! I never noticed 1 Samuel 14:6c! and how that's so true about 2 Peter 2:1! :thumbsup: ]
EXCELLENT observation marie :thumbsup: :iagree:
yes, and Jesus NEVER used the common Greek term for neverending punishment, 'aiodios timora'..He deliberately used 'aionios kolasis' (age - during correction'.
And the angels who kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlastin(aidos)g chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
I dont think aidos means unending or forever or everlasting either, because here, aidos only lasts until the day of judgment.
Simply said:
It is not the DURATION that is everlasting
It is the RESULT that is everlasting
Amen I agree with that.. Like the smoke of destruction will rise up 'forever'/never forgotten. This lesson of learning what's good and what's not so good/evil, designed, I believe to never be forgotten but will be part of our DNA so to speak.. "written on the heart and mind" (Jeremiah 31?)
:smile:
there will be 3 days of darkness/plague..and it ends at the threshing floor.
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 03:53:52 AM
Amen I agree with that.. Like the smoke of destruction will rise up 'forever'/never forgotten. This lesson of learning what's good and what's not so good/evil, designed, I believe to never be forgotten but will be part of our DNA so to speak.. "written on the heart and mind" (Jeremiah 31?)
:smile:
Agrees though with certain qualifications not pertinent to the thread.
Quote from: CST on March 07, 2016, 08:07:01 PM
Agrees though with certain qualifications not pertinent to the thread.
I forgot this is an affirmation thread! or that is, I forgot what thread I was in :laughing7:
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 03:53:52 AM
Amen I agree with that.. Like the smoke of destruction will rise up 'forever'/never forgotten. This lesson of learning what's good and what's not so good/evil, designed, I believe to never be forgotten but will be part of our DNA so to speak.. "written on the heart and mind" (Jeremiah 31?)
:smile:
I see it as this smoke will rise up through the ages, but I agree with the interpretation of what it means. an imprint upon the collective consciousness as to the righteous judgment of God.
Another good example of this is where John the baptist says, "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
People read this as the wicked are the chaff and the righteous are the wheat, but each and every seed has wheat and chaff, the chaff being the hard outer covering of each and every grain. That chaff must be "broken" before the wheat can be gathered for milling into grain, and that is what the threshing floor was for- the chaff was beaten off the wheat, then it was blown off with fans, then the wheat was gathered, then the chaff was burned. The chaff does not burn forever. it burns until it is gone. The fire is "unquenchable" in that it will not stop burning the chaff until it is gone.
Life is the threshing floor. Any grains that leave this age/world with the chaff still intact, will enter whatever process exists in the world to come for the breaking and burning of the chaff- and Jesus describes this as an unpleasant process. This should not surprise us, since Peter explains, "All discipline is for the moment unpleasant, but when it is finished yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness."
I believe Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for the aionian chaff burning and separating light(wheat) from darkness(chaff), spirit(wheat) from carnality(chaff), life(wheat) from death(chaff).
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 10:54:49 PM
Quote from: CST on March 07, 2016, 08:07:01 PM
Agrees though with certain qualifications not pertinent to the thread.
I forgot this is an affirmation thread! or that is, I forgot what thread I was in :laughing7:
I think you can affirm your belief with whatever quotes you want if you can justify them if necessary which is what you appear to be doing here. I'm just saying that although I agree with your reading of that point of Revelation, it was one of the first observations I made, I have since added further observations that broaden my understanding of what is being both there and in the context of the book. It just wouldn't be useful to discuss them here, I feel.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2016, 01:18:33 AM
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 03:53:52 AM
Amen I agree with that.. Like the smoke of destruction will rise up 'forever'/never forgotten. This lesson of learning what's good and what's not so good/evil, designed, I believe to never be forgotten but will be part of our DNA so to speak.. "written on the heart and mind" (Jeremiah 31?)
:smile:
I see it as this smoke will rise up through the ages, but I agree with the interpretation of what it means. an imprint upon the collective consciousness as to the righteous judgment of God.
Another good example of this is where John the baptist says, "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
People read this as the wicked are the chaff and the righteous are the wheat, but each and every seed has wheat and chaff, the chaff being the hard outer covering of each and every grain. That chaff must be "broken" before the wheat can be gathered for milling into grain, and that is what the threshing floor was for- the chaff was beaten off the wheat, then it was blown off with fans, then the wheat was gathered, then the chaff was burned. The chaff does not burn forever. it burns until it is gone. The fire is "unquenchable" in that it will not stop burning the chaff until it is gone.
Life is the threshing floor. Any grains that leave this age/world with the chaff still intact, will enter whatever process exists in the world to come for the breaking and burning of the chaff- and Jesus describes this as an unpleasant process. This should not surprise us, since Peter explains, "All discipline is for the moment unpleasant, but when it is finished yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness."
I believe Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for the aionian chaff burning and separating light(wheat) from darkness(chaff), spirit(wheat) from carnality(chaff), life(wheat) from death(chaff).
Agrees, although I feel the term 'unquenchable' may have more to do the fact it refers to some quality in God that opposes and purges sin. Thus the fire would remain unquenchable even while there was no sin left to purge. I think this is just about a simple enough interpretation to be mentioned here without going off topic.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2016, 01:18:33 AM
I believe Gehenna and the lake of fire are metaphors for the aionian chaff burning and separating light(wheat) from darkness(chaff), spirit(wheat) from carnality(chaff), life(wheat) from death(chaff).
:iagree: :iagree:
Quote from: CST on March 08, 2016, 12:47:51 PM
Agrees, although I feel the term 'unquenchable' may have more to do the fact it refers to some quality in God that opposes and purges sin. Thus the fire would remain unquenchable even while there was no sin left to purge.
:Chinscratch: ..that makes sense!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Philippians 3:21
"who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working of his power, by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself."
gregoryfl posted a thread the other day on this verse.. and it stuck with me.. :smile:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/philippians-321-how-yeshua-makes-all-subject-to-himself/msg196780/#msg196780
Quote from: marie glen on March 08, 2016, 04:51:19 PM
Quote from: CST on March 08, 2016, 12:47:51 PM
Agrees, although I feel the term 'unquenchable' may have more to do the fact it refers to some quality in God that opposes and purges sin. Thus the fire would remain unquenchable even while there was no sin left to purge.
:Chinscratch: ..that makes sense!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Yes, quite possibly the Word of God (Jesus' word which will not pass away), or the Spirit of God (John the Baptist talking, in the verse before this, about baptizing with water for repentance and being succeeded by Jesus, baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire) or, quite possibly, both.
from Ephesian 1:9,10 - "He made known to us the mystery of his will.. to bring all things together in Christ, [both] things in the heavens and things on the earth."
I took out phrases in between..
Here's the whole verses:
9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring all things together in Christ, [both] things in the heavens and things on the earth.
YLT - 10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;
:banana: :banana: :HeartThrob: This is so awesome especially if you
can sure see this as Greater is He that is in You than in the world !!
Our heavens and our earth are ruled by JESUS CHRIST ..
1John 4 Testing the Spirits
...3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them....
John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.
Romans 8:31
What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
1 John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
For me this is how the Lord Jesus Christ would be casting out unclean and evil spirits in a man , being the Father of spirits and the spirits are subject to Him , these are the powers and principalities ruling over our flesh and there can only be ONE , One Faith One Hope One baptism ONE LORD OF ALL AND THOUGH YOU ALL ...
There must be unity , wholeness , within us first before we can ever , come together as ONE corporately in Christ as God permits .
Unity in the Body
...4There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all....
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Ephesians 4:13
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Gods blessings of grace
Quote from: rosered on March 22, 2016, 04:11:40 PM
Our heavens and our earth are ruled by JESUS CHRIST ..
It is because of this way of thinking we can come to understand the difference between flesh and Spirit;
If heaven is the mind and earth is the heart, in Christ they rule together as husband and wife (male and female)
[they rule "WITH" each other],
but in he who has not been joined together as one, the carnal mind rules over the heart, husband rules over the wife
[one rules "OVER" another], therefore, if the carnal mind rules over the heart, the seed does not fall to the earth (the heart) where it is planted to grow and flourish. it is stolen by the fowls of the air.
Also seeing the flip side of the same coin, if the husband/male/mind does not step up to put to death the desires of wife/female/heart, they shall both eat and bring about death unto themselves, as we see in the garden.
my :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on March 23, 2016, 01:15:20 AM
Quote from: rosered on March 22, 2016, 04:11:40 PM
Our heavens and our earth are ruled by JESUS CHRIST ..
It is because of this way of thinking we can come to understand the difference between flesh and Spirit;
If heaven is the mind and earth is the heart, in Christ they rule together as husband and wife (male and female)[they rule "WITH" each other],
but in he who has not been joined together as one, the carnal mind rules over the heart, husband rules over the wife [one rules "OVER" another], therefore, if the carnal mind rules over the heart, the seed does not fall to the earth (the heart) where it is planted to grow and flourish. it is stolen by the fowls of the air.
Also seeing the flip side of the same coin, if the husband/male/mind does not step up to put to death the desires of wife/female/heart, they shall both eat and bring about death unto themselves, as we see in the garden.
my :2c:
I can see that the mind of Christ is Spiritual and a new heart
Ezek 36 A New Heart and Spirit
...25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you;
and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh
and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances....
The covenant agreement between God and mankind though Jesus Christ
Ephesians 1:11
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
1 Timothy 2:4
4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
[and amen as Rose posted - "Greater is He" (much greater!!).. "than he that is in the world"..!]
:iagree: :dsunny: :dsunny: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 02:39:05 PM
Ephesians 1:11
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
1 Timothy 2:4
4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
[and amen as Rose posted - "Greater is He" (much greater!!).. "than he that is in the world"..!]
Ephesians 2:1-2
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
"Greater is He" (much greater!!).. "than he that is in the world"..!
(jus' sayin! :smile: )
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.. But because of His great love..even when, we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.." - Ephesians 2:1-2,4-5
"greater is He (that is in you), than he that is in the world" - John 4:4b
"God is love" - 1 John 4:8 ("Love never fails.." - 1 Corinthians 13:8a)
Jesus prayed 'thy will be done'...2 Peter 3 9 tell us its God will that all be saved....there we have it..Gods will will be done and all will be saved. :dsunny: :banana:
(Amen!!)
affirmation:
..why didn't Paul write - "the wages/result of sin is fiery existence in hell for ever.. and ever.."...? (Romans 6:23)
(don't know if this has been posted already)
affirmation:
Romans 14:11 - It is written: "As surely as I live," says the Lord,
"every-knee will bow before me;
every-tongue will acknowledge-God."
Philippians 2:10-11 - that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Isaiah 45:23 - By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow; by me every-tongue will swear.
1 Corinthians 12:3 - ..no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(& as darryl posted, 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.)
"every tongue will acknowledge God."
great verses marie glen
Isaiah 46
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.
Eph 1
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Acts 3
But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
2 Samuel 14:14 -
We all die, and like waters that return no more, we fall down into the earth: neither will God have a soul to perish, but recalleth, meaning that he that is cast off should not altogether perish.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Thanks! :thumbsup: I'm compiling a list of verses which seem to clearly express UR/God's mercy/faithfulness :dsunny: Isaiah 46:10 ( :thumbsup: ) was not on it, nor Acts 3:21... and, wow, I don't even remember ever reading Samuel 14:14! which I like how the KJ says it "yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him" and YL - "devised devices in that the outcast is not outcast by Him" (and an easy verse to remember being doubles, 14:14) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
..........thus far i have 31 verses on the list. And growing! Thanks everyone!!
Jeremiah 32:17 - Amplified Bible (AMP)
17 'Ah Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! There is nothing too difficult or too wonderful for You—
1 Cor 15;22,23 " For since death came through a man, the resurrection also comes through a man.
For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ will all be made alive.
But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, then those who belong to Christ, when He comes,
Then comes the end when He hands over the kingdom to God, when He has destroyed every dominion,
every authority, and every power."
Amen , it could not be anymore personal , each in their own order indeed ,,,, let no man deceive you Matthew 24 as the Spirit speaks in the name of the LORD Jesus Christ When He comes in the clouds of glory to build His temple as the first is torn down by His coming [1Thess 5] day of the Lord
Jesus Christ being the Son of God come as the son of man to join the two on His own cross tasting death for every man so they can taste of God and know that every good and perfect gift is of the FATHER OF LIGHTS /SPIRITS '' all things '' are ours to experience , life and death and you belong to Christ and Christ belongs to God. !!
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it
because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish,
so that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.
For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness";
and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless.
" So then let no one boast in men.
For all things belong to you,
whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
Quote from: marie glen on April 11, 2016, 05:43:35 PM
(Amen!!)
affirmation:
..why didn't Paul write - "the wages/result of sin is fiery existence in hell for ever.. and ever.."...? (Romans 6:23)
I'd call that a rhetorical question rather than an affirmation and I'm very tempted to try and answer it but I won't because I know that will take us off topic.
I will say that I find that one single line very difficult because it looks so grammatically unsound I know less and less how I should be reading it each time I look at it and each time I see other people's readings of it.
Why is that pertinent? Because even as we quote all these "affirmations" out of the Bible which look pretty sound to us we bring our personal modern day baggage to them. And yet we know that these works were all written with the audience of the day in mind who were expected to have information and understanding of their environment and circumstances that we cannot begin to comprehend that informs what the original understanding was.
All the same the look perfectly reasonable in the majority of cases and I'd still have expected a stronger response from the apostles if they really believed in that state we in the modern tongue call Hell.
Quote from: rosered on April 12, 2016, 01:20:10 PM
Amen , it could not be anymore personal , each in their own order indeed ,,,, let no man deceive you Matthew 24 as the Spirit speaks in the name of the LORD Jesus Christ When He comes in the clouds of glory to build His temple as the first is torn down by His coming [1Thess 5] day of the Lord
Jesus Christ being the Son of God come as the son of man to join the two on His own cross tasting death for every man so they can taste of God and know that every good and perfect gift is of the FATHER OF LIGHTS /SPIRITS " all things " are ours to experience , life and death and you belong to Christ and Christ belongs to God. !!
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it
because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish,
so that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.
For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness";
and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless.
" So then let no one boast in men.
For all things belong to you,
whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,
and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
I don't want to be saved "as through fire" I don't see that as being saved.
Isaiah 55:11
Amplified Bible
- "So will My word be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me void (useless, without result), Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."
:dsunny:
[his sWord, which has power.. can penetrate.. divides true from untrue.. the tip of his sWord separating slender threads one from another.. untruth these days is like a wet, heavy quilt hanging low in the atmosphere.. just ruminating.. :Peace2: :smile: ]
Quote from: CST on April 12, 2016, 02:21:04 PM
Quote from: marie glen on April 11, 2016, 05:43:35 PM
(Amen!!)
affirmation:
..why didn't Paul write - "the wages/result of sin is fiery existence in hell for ever.. and ever.."...? (Romans 6:23)
I'd call that a rhetorical question rather than an affirmation
you're right! ...maybe a question with affirmation qualities! :laughing7:
p.s. I know i don't follow the rules of punctuation and sentence structure very well.. hubby calls it 'butchering'.. (mildly annoying?)
Maybe you don't but I'm not criticizing you for that. I'd have expected Paul would have done a Biblical translators would have done but the phrase "the wages of sin is death." does not seem grammatically correct. To me it should either be 'the wages of sin are death' or 'the wage of sin is death' to get the number match right.
That doesn't even allow that I think of wages = consequences (or used to) except it would be more natural to write 'sinning' than 'sin', surely?
Quote
I don't want to be saved "as through fire" I don't see that as being saved.
I know you don't SEE the salvation like this CST ,
But if we look unto the scriptures we can see where Jesus Christ told His students , disciples you are every bit whole clean , but wash one another's feet
This is exactly what we do at Tentmaker site , the teaching of the Lords is at His feet of His BODY and and the entrance
when He returned to them and breathed on them giving them His breath of Life that HOLY SPIRIT and fire , same thing happened at pentecost in Acts 1
and we see the salvation of GOD
Jesus come in the fulness of times , being the Son of man and being the Son of God [ the Word made flesh ] bridging the gap and showing us the way by the Truth and Life in Him being Spirit as a Son of God and given all things , the son of man is all about the forgiveness of sin and taking up the our cross [dying to sin and living in the Spirit and being the Son of God is all about knowing the LOVE OF GOD
Have you ever wondered why its worded in such ways ? in Ezek He also is called the Son of Man and Jesus Christ is His name and there is no name under heaven by which you must be saved
But the Son of God has a new name and is a new creation that is by the Spirit of truth and by the WORD OF TRUTH that the true worshippers shall worship Him in Spirit & truth , His Word is within us and judges us all , GOD IS LOVE , GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE AND GOD IS SPIRIT these describe GODS POWERFUL PRESENCE working within us . because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.
I sure hope this helps , I could have pulled up all the scriptures that helped , but thought I would simplify if at all possible .
Not entirely but I appreciate you trying.
I once thought I had solved to my satisfaction "to those who have more will be given..."
But then I forgot what I thought.
Except my original thought on the logical problem in the phrase "to he who has nothing even what they have will be taken away."
Quote from: CST on April 12, 2016, 06:11:53 PM
Maybe you don't but I'm not criticizing you for that. I'd have expected Paul would have done a Biblical translators would have done but the phrase "the wages of sin is death." does not seem grammatically correct. To me it should either be 'the wages of sin are death' or 'the wage of sin is death' to get the number match right.
That doesn't even allow that I think of wages = consequences (or used to) except it would be more natural to write 'sinning' than 'sin', surely?
This I see as "what is earned" (wages), what is from God is freely given, Meaning to spirit He freely gives
But what is of the flesh is earned, meaning of course the flesh earns it ..... we earn death by things of the flesh
my :2c:
Quote from: CST on April 12, 2016, 08:53:44 PM
But then I forgot what I thought.
... :Chinscratch: that happens to me a lot!
I've always thought the verse "wages of sin" means results of.. Results of imperfection - make that result, the result of imperfection - seeing as God is perfection and is also life, itself, the lifeforce.. What else would be the life force? And "sin" if I remember right, the Greek is "missing the mark".. Imperfection.. Opposite of God/life.
Since all is by the grace of God - the fruit(s) of His Spirit and not of ourselves.. he/she who has much will have more.. Like a fountain of life God is, and he/she who has none, what little they seem to have will be lost... (Saved- so as by 'fire' - seems to me to imply not fire, for then it would say saved by or in fire , but it is as if by fire.. As if by by being snatched out of a fire.. Rescued, but with not much in the way of Holy Spirit fruits? Or 'works' such as having made a positive impact in the world - whether 'large or small' - in our communicating of the good news... (Imo, anyway) :smile:
...will we be found of Him giving meat in due season or will we be found beating up on other members of the household? Or drunk with the drunken/confused with the confused? ( from Matthew 24)
:Peace2:
I think Paul looked at things from many different perspectives and used analogies to communicate various elements of expansive subjects in simple ways. i don't think he meant those things to define comprehensively the whole enchilada. The way Paul wrote was so much more flowing and even at times poetic and prophetic.
if he had wanted to set down a clear systematic view of everything he certainly could have- he was Pharisee of Pharisees, a "doctor of law".
We have to read across his letters to different people about different topics to get a fairly concise idea of what he was teaching. it is a "man-thing" in my opinion, to need all these "exact explanations" - line upon line- and micro definitions for macro concepts.
Paul said the wisdom of God is spoken in a mystery among the mature.
Jesus said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18"He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him....
The doctrine of God begins with faith working through love, grows through humility into wisdom, and reaches its fulness returning back to love.
Love one another
Forgive one another
Forbear one another
Pray for one another
Bear one another's burdens
Confess your faults one to another
Exhort one another to love and good works
and above all, Love one another
Quote from: eaglesway on April 14, 2016, 06:33:57 AM
Jesus said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17"If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18"He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him....
The doctrine of God begins with faith working through love, grows through humility into wisdom, and reaches its fulness returning back to love.
Love one another
Forgive one another
Forbear one another
Pray for one another
Bear one another's burdens
Confess your faults one to another
Exhort one another to love and good works
and above all, Love one another
Yes. I wrote this a few days ago, and maybe this is very obvious to all or most of you all, but it just grabbed me while I was writing this. The fulfillment of the Law is Love.
No longer sacrifice.....Jesus was the final sacrifice. When He rose, Love, and not Sacrifice became the way to God. The curtain in the Temple was torn in two. A new Covenant. Do what you do out of Love and not to offer sacrifice for your sins, which would never have satisfied, anyway.
Now, I knew there was a new covenant and I understood now that Jesus rose, we all had access to God.....no longer did the High Priest have to sacrifice for us.
But, I never connected the dots to see that the Law of God had transformed into the Love of God. I don't know....it is a bit elusive and hard to totally grab hold of. I hope you understand what I am getting at. I hope I understand what I am getting at. :LH:
My post from a few days ago: Hellbusters Hallow / Re: The carnal nature wants an avenging God?
« on: April 02, 2016, 08:15:34 AM »
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven................
Matthew 5:17 - 20
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:43 -48
The Law is what was demanded and if not fulfilled, then the people had to offer a sacrifice. The Gospel said that Man could never fulfill the Law.....God's infinite Love in the form of His only Son, had to do it for us. So Love had to complete the Law.
I think that is what is being said here. God established the laws, but we couldn't live up to them. The laws demanded a sacrifice, if not carried out well. The lamb of the ancient Israelites. That is what humanity was ready for, at the time. But, in the fullness of time, Jesus, our Savior was born. The Word of God, in human flesh. And, He told us, that Love must now be the Law.....we must carry all the laws a step further.....now we must do all we do in Love. Jesus taught us how perfect Love looks.....and He asked us to do the same. From the Old Testament, we learned that sin demanded a sacrifice.....when Jesus came, we learned that we could never sacrifice enough, so God sent His only Son, to do for us what we could not do for ourselves. Perfect Love sent from Heaven. Now God and man were reconciled. The curtain was torn......now we must put Love as the highest Law.......the law fulfilled; the final sacrifice made. Jesus: Our High Priest and Our Lamb....the unity of the two requirements of the final sacrifice. So, love was taught and love now was what we must do......not sacrifice but love.
Old Testament:
...5Therefore I have hewn them in pieces by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of My mouth; And the judgments on you are like the light that goes forth. 6For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice, And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. 7But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.... Hosea 6:5 -7
New Testament:
...12But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:12 - 13
And, it is this transformation of Law to Love, that will carry us all "Home".
John 13:
34"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
D.
BTW, maybe a list of verses to confirm CUR could be started. I think it would be a big help to me, personally.
One section just to list verses.
What do you think, folks?
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on April 14, 2016, 07:06:50 AM
BTW, maybe a list of verses to confirm CUR could be started. I think it would be a big help to me, personally.
One section just to list verses.
What do you think, folks?
D.
Here's a start :)
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063
Thank you, jabcat!
D.
1 Corinthians 15:
1 Corinthians 15:50-58New International Version (NIV)
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[a]
55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
Do you think this confirms UR? I see it that way.
Quote from: jugghead on April 14, 2016, 01:49:33 AM
Quote from: CST on April 12, 2016, 06:11:53 PM
Maybe you don't but I'm not criticizing you for that. I'd have expected Paul would have done a Biblical translators would have done but the phrase "the wages of sin is death." does not seem grammatically correct. To me it should either be 'the wages of sin are death' or 'the wage of sin is death' to get the number match right.
That doesn't even allow that I think of wages = consequences (or used to) except it would be more natural to write 'sinning' than 'sin', surely?
This I see as "what is earned" (wages), what is from God is freely given, Meaning to spirit He freely gives
But what is of the flesh is earned, meaning of course the flesh earns it ..... we earn death by things of the flesh
my :2c:
Yeah, this was what I originally thought but that caused the problem that I'd have thought 'sinning' would read better.
The other possibility is that Paul was personifying Sin for some reason so it actually "the wages Sin pays is death."
But I'm not sure there's actually a technical difference but I think I came across an actual alternative once, but I'm not sure.
Quote from: marie glen on April 14, 2016, 04:26:01 AM
Quote from: CST on April 12, 2016, 08:53:44 PM
But then I forgot what I thought.
... :Chinscratch: that happens to me a lot!
I've always thought the verse "wages of sin" means results of.. Results of imperfection - make that result, the result of imperfection - seeing as God is perfection and is also life, itself, the lifeforce.. What else would be the life force? And "sin" if I remember right, the Greek is "missing the mark".. Imperfection.. Opposite of God/life.
Since all is by the grace of God - the fruit(s) of His Spirit and not of ourselves.. he/she who has much will have more.. Like a fountain of life God is, and he/she who has none, what little they seem to have will be lost... (Saved- so as by 'fire' - seems to me to imply not fire, for then it would say saved by or in fire , but it is as if by fire.. As if by by being snatched out of a fire.. Rescued, but with not much in the way of Holy Spirit fruits? Or 'works' such as having made a positive impact in the world - whether 'large or small' - in our communicating of the good news... (Imo, anyway) :smile:
...will we be found of Him giving meat in due season or will we be found beating up on other members of the household? Or drunk with the drunken/confused with the confused? ( from Matthew 24)
:Peace2:
Yeah, I've got a few Torah commentaries and translations by Richard Friedman. Richard Friedman is Jewish, speaks and reads Hebrew and denies that "missing the mark" is a proper understanding of the Hebrew word for sin, which invites the question of why the Greek would use one and why the tradition has appeared in general.
But my concern about Jesus remark about the haves and have-nots is the logical problem that first anyone who has God's love presumably has something and a very big something, so if that could be taken away that would be a big problem for everyone who basically didn't appreciate it.
At the same anyone who really has nothing would have to be without hope. Because if you have nothing, you can't do any with it, you can't convert it into anything. Anyone who God had actually given nothing to will continue having nothing because they haven't the capacity to do anything about it (because that would be something). And Jesus suggests these people exist. I continue to worry I'm one of them.
I also don't quite read the parable of the sheep and the goats that way, not that it's invalid when people do, but this isn't the thread to discuss that.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 14, 2016, 06:33:57 AM
if he had wanted to set down a clear systematic view of everything he certainly could have- he was Pharisee of Pharisees, a "doctor of law".
"Beware the yeast of the Pharisees."
I only think of Paul as a Pharisee when he says stuff that sounds like what a Pharisee would say rather than a correct understanding of scripture and at present I can only think of one possible incident of this. And that doesn't mean there's no truth in that part of the letter you just have to be careful how you read it, I feel.
Quote from: Dandelion on April 14, 2016, 07:04:12 AM
Do what you do out of Love and not to offer sacrifice for your sins, which would never have satisfied, anyway.
I always try to do this but I still can't help worrying that the carnal is still rather too prominent.
I certainly think, at the very least, this verse -
55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"
could be thought to support (Christian) Universal Redemption as to think this doesn't include all death, as in the death of our loved ones, especially, would be a very narrow way of thinking.. :girlheart:
Quote from: CST on April 14, 2016, 07:04:38 PM
I continue to worry I'm one of them.
I'm kind of the opposite.. in that I don't worry enough! I don't worry about how good or not good enough I'm doing.. okay, well, maybe about whether or not I'm reading my bible enough, praying enough.. which the answer is no, not enough.. but I guess I'm one of those "once saved, always saved" believing persons.. tho if I started to cheat and steal or whatnot, then I would be worried.. but every day human flaws I'm not surprised in any way to have them and view them humorously.. I do have some carnal struggle.. have been dieting all my life I think.. or wanting to.. am basically lazy, been known to cuss, even as a born again believer.. but I take it to heart that my sins (flaws, imperfections) are covered as far as my standing with God.. so though I don't go out of my way to cuss, be in a bad mood.. fall short.. and try to avoid them.. I don't get concerned if they happen.. I mumur up a forgive me.. maybe call myself a dweeb and really don't worry about any of it... If I found myself not caring about others.. then i'd be worried, because to me that's the measuring stick... Of course, I've been a christian hermit - so to speak - all these years.. not been 'churched' so the only one judging my behavior has been me (yes, I'm sure that could be dangerous, especially if I wasn't reading my bible!)... I've been through times of worrying, of thinking i didn't measure up, then I figured that if I can cut other people some slack, why not me? I figure those who will lose something at Jesus' return will be those who seemed as though they maybe 'had it all'.. but didn't - when they got down to it - really have Jesus, and w/o Jesus, ultimately there is nothing..
I could be wrong of course, in which case I may regret not being a little tougher on myself.. but i had such a strict and rather harsh upbringing.. so i try to cut myself some slack, like I do others... I figure everybody gets criticized.. judged or whatnot, works hard, carries their own burdens.. I don't want to pile on, so why should I pile on to my own back either? - "
My yoke is easy,
My burden light"
I've been visiting other forums and there can sometimes be a harsh spirit.. seems like the attitude can be we're all supposed to mope around, fearing God.. struggling in the flesh.. But the fruit of that doesn't seem to me, to be all that good...
I figure, ultimately, even the 2nd resurrection - those who "die still in their sins" (as unbelievers) thus rise still in their sins, even if I were of that group.. I believe they will 'catch up to' the 1st resurrection ultimately.. "All in all" with all of us being most blessed and all our loved ones there with us.. In other words, all things, every one, and every thing will be perfection.. nothing less.. (ultimately) ...because of this attitude, I am, altogether, too carefree...
:doh: my keyboard (mouse sensitivity?) has gone nutz please pardon any typos..
Quote from: jabcat on April 14, 2016, 07:44:09 AM
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063
:thumbsup:
Who by worrying (taking thought about "what if?") can add even an hour (cubit/measure) to his life ..... since things of the Father are timeless and we know that He uses physical examples to show us spiritual meaning ..... according to the physical we get older or grow according to time ..... but with the Father, Son, Holy Spirit we grow according to understanding .....
which is why I see we cannot add a single hour to our life as .....we cannot add a single understanding to our life simply because all understanding comes from the Father through Christ by the Holy Spirit.
Have we not entered into His rest and know that He gives at the appointed time?
my :2c:
Quote from: marie glen on April 14, 2016, 09:22:12 PM
I certainly think, at the very least, this verse -
55 "Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"
could be thought to support (Christian) Universal Redemption as to think this doesn't include all death, as in the death of our loved ones, especially, would be a very narrow way of thinking.. :girlheart:
True, but St. Paul explains how he is defining 'sting' and 'death' here in the very next verse.
56 "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law."
And just to be fair to the text:
57, 58 "But thanks be to God, who us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable always in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Quote from: marie glen on April 14, 2016, 09:58:25 PM
Quote from: CST on April 14, 2016, 07:04:38 PM
I continue to worry I'm one of them.
I'm kind of the opposite.. in that I don't worry enough! I don't worry about how good or not good enough I'm doing.. okay, well, maybe about whether or not I'm reading my bible enough, praying enough.. which the answer is no, not enough.. but I guess I'm one of those "once saved, always saved" believing persons.. tho if I started to cheat and steal or whatnot, then I would be worried.. but every day human flaws I'm not surprised in any way to have them and view them humorously.. I do have some carnal struggle.. have been dieting all my life I think.. or wanting to.. am basically lazy, been known to cuss, even as a born again believer.. but I take it to heart that my sins (flaws, imperfections) are covered as far as my standing with God.. so though I don't go out of my way to cuss, be in a bad mood.. fall short.. and try to avoid them.. I don't get concerned if they happen.. I mumur up a forgive me.. maybe call myself a dweeb and really don't worry about any of it... If I found myself not caring about others.. then i'd be worried, because to me that's the measuring stick... Of course, I've been a christian hermit - so to speak - all these years.. not been 'churched' so the only one judging my behavior has been me (yes, I'm sure that could be dangerous, especially if I wasn't reading my bible!)... I've been through times of worrying, of thinking i didn't measure up, then I figured that if I can cut other people some slack, why not me? I figure those who will lose something at Jesus' return will be those who seemed as though they maybe 'had it all'.. but didn't - when they got down to it - really have Jesus, and w/o Jesus, ultimately there is nothing..
I could be wrong of course, in which case I may regret not being a little tougher on myself.. but i had such a strict and rather harsh upbringing.. so i try to cut myself some slack, like I do others... I figure everybody gets criticized.. judged or whatnot, works hard, carries their own burdens.. I don't want to pile on, so why should I pile on to my own back either? - "My yoke is easy, My burden light"
I've been visiting other forums and there can sometimes be a harsh spirit.. seems like the attitude can be we're all supposed to mope around, fearing God.. struggling in the flesh.. But the fruit of that doesn't seem to me, to be all that good...
I figure, ultimately, even the 2nd resurrection - those who "die still in their sins" (as unbelievers) thus rise still in their sins, even if I were of that group.. I believe they will 'catch up to' the 1st resurrection ultimately.. "All in all" with all of us being most blessed and all our loved ones there with us.. In other words, all things, every one, and every thing will be perfection.. nothing less.. (ultimately) ...because of this attitude, I am, altogether, too carefree...
:doh: my keyboard (mouse sensitivity?) has gone nutz please pardon any typos..
Aah, :hug:
Nothing you say there is wrong. I'm pretty sure we're ideally not supposed to worry and Jesus does say His burden is light. But He also says take up your cross and follow me so...
My concern isn't really my sins it is my complete impotence and failure to achieve anything. I'm inately idle, have no labour so I can't be labouring in the Lord and if I am like the guy who buried his one talent I can't even remember where I buried it or ever having it so the guy is up on me (well, except that I don't think like him0.
Suppoedly we do all end up in the same place but I'm seen a thread that argues otherwise.
Some great thoughts sis Marie!!
I do believe bro Chris , you brought up our own battles of being both Spirit and flesh , for me Marie just described her place of being in Gods grace , and growing in truth and grace
Knowing being much more carnal in thoughts and nature we DO feel the sting of death much more often in this limited mortal body
We do not understand fully yet what being in the POWER OF THE SPIRIT and complete in it really means yet ..
For me personally and as truthful as can be about it all , leaves me conflicted often
on the one hand I believe already when we literally die and the body of death is totally done away with in CHRIST
But there is this LIFE IN CHRIST WHOM LIVES, as we die , that ol carnal nature that still desires [sting of death] in the here and now for those called
By the Grace of God to experience spiritual freedom that we know the law written in our hearts does according to GODS GRACE and growing in that truth and grace
we overcome by what ? HIM to me it has always been up to God for everyone , all creation was made for His glory and to experience His glory on earth as it is in heaven , you must simply love the life He has given you , I do not believe that the Life in the Spirit ever dies or knows that sting of death any longer , It was Jesus letting us know this and come to tell us so , and not to fret or be afraid for the Light does Shine in the darkness
You are spirit and you are flesh and they are enemies with each other , that is the power of thinking of which you one are and that fruit you eat of .
one is experiencing the corruption and the other is experiencing life in the Spirit already ... and discerning between the two types of mindsets .in Adam all die , but in Christ be made alive ..
John 11 ...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.
" 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
It really is a simple thing when thinking of it , but it is a hard thing to experience both life and death at the same time
I think the best example was when I understood , Jesus telling Peter , get behind me satan !! , you are not tasting the things of God [SPIRIT] but the things that be of men [Adam]
When Peter was arguing over Jesus going to the cross and Peter did not want JESUS to leave them , he wanted the Kingdom of God to be flesh and blood with Spirit and truth all mixed together , but God had separated this from the beginning , He was desiring the tangible things, he could taste and touch and feel that are not holy , but temporary things that rot and decay in this realm without the breath of God in them all LIVING THINGS die .
I just want to help , not harm anyone , just sharing those things simply that helped me greatly to divide what is Spirit is spirit and what is flesh is flesh and learning the difference between the two realms of thought by the grace of Gods Spirit and truth .
We all have always belonged to Him , realizing that finally , has been a part of the overcoming in Christ, whom are all things made by Him and for Him and though Him as Gods glory in the earth [ chaos ] as it is in heaven [ His peace]
more and more Spirit and less and less flesh as it is being destroyed in the earth , till we can walk in the Spirit fully
The blood of Jesus is sufficient for all of our sins.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
No one is worthy. We all stumble in many ways. He loves us and will never leave us or forsake us.
"If our hearts condemn us, He is greater than our hearts and knows all things." 1 John 3:20
Quote from: eaglesway on April 15, 2016, 06:43:11 PM
The blood of Jesus is sufficient for all of our sins.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
No one is worthy. We all stumble in many ways. He loves us and will never leave us or forsake us.
"If our hearts condemn us, He is greater than our hearts and knows all things." 1 John 3:20
Amen!!!!
Quote from: jugghead on April 14, 2016, 11:55:16 PM
Who by worrying (taking thought about "what if?") can add even an hour (cubit/measure) to his life ..... since things of the Father are timeless and we know that He uses physical examples to show us spiritual meaning ..... according to the physical we get older or grow according to time ..... but with the Father, Son, Holy Spirit we grow according to understanding .....
which is why I see we cannot add a single hour to our life as .....we cannot add a single understanding to our life simply because all understanding comes from the Father through Christ by the Holy Spirit.
Have we not entered into His rest and know that He gives at the appointed time?
my :2c:
<Sigh> Knowing that doesn't make be worry any less though, I worry because I worry and then I worry all the more.
Quote from: rosered on April 15, 2016, 06:19:49 PM
Some great thoughts sis Marie!!
I do believe bro Chris , you brought up our own battles of being both Spirit and flesh , for me Marie just described her place of being in Gods grace , and growing in truth and grace
Knowing being much more carnal in thoughts and nature we DO feel the sting of death much more often in this limited mortal body
We do not understand fully yet what being in the POWER OF THE SPIRIT and complete in it really means yet ..
For me personally and as truthful as can be about it all , leaves me conflicted often
on the one hand I believe already when we literally die and the body of death is totally done away with in CHRIST
But there is this LIFE IN CHRIST WHOM LIVES, as we die , that ol carnal nature that still desires [sting of death] in the here and now for those called
By the Grace of God to experience spiritual freedom that we know the law written in our hearts does according to GODS GRACE and growing in that truth and grace
we overcome by what ? HIM to me it has always been up to God for everyone , all creation was made for His glory and to experience His glory on earth as it is in heaven , you must simply love the life He has given you , I do not believe that the Life in the Spirit ever dies or knows that sting of death any longer , It was Jesus letting us know this and come to tell us so , and not to fret or be afraid for the Light does Shine in the darkness
You are spirit and you are flesh and they are enemies with each other , that is the power of thinking of which you one are and that fruit you eat of .
one is experiencing the corruption and the other is experiencing life in the Spirit already ... and discerning between the two types of mindsets .in Adam all die , but in Christ be made alive ..
John 11 ...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.
" 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
It really is a simple thing when thinking of it , but it is a hard thing to experience both life and death at the same time
I think the best example was when I understood , Jesus telling Peter , get behind me satan !! , you are not tasting the things of God [SPIRIT] but the things that be of men [Adam]
When Peter was arguing over Jesus going to the cross and Peter did not want JESUS to leave them , he wanted the Kingdom of God to be flesh and blood with Spirit and truth all mixed together , but God had separated this from the beginning , He was desiring the tangible things, he could taste and touch and feel that are not holy , but temporary things that rot and decay in this realm without the breath of God in them all LIVING THINGS die .
I just want to help , not harm anyone , just sharing those things simply that helped me greatly to divide what is Spirit is spirit and what is flesh is flesh and learning the difference between the two realms of thought by the grace of Gods Spirit and truth .
We all have always belonged to Him , realizing that finally , has been a part of the overcoming in Christ, whom are all things made by Him and for Him and though Him as Gods glory in the earth [ chaos ] as it is in heaven [ His peace]
more and more Spirit and less and less flesh as it is being destroyed in the earth , till we can walk in the Spirit fully
I'm sure I did, probably several times because this makes my head spin and I struggle to know exactly what I think but frequent gravitate to things like this. I'll try to explain it this God.
God made the world and all the things of the world then He made us and put us in the world and be gravitate towards the things of the world because they're what we're most familiar with and are closest to us. Following this to its conclusion God, the Holy One source of all Holiness seems to have made an awful lot of unholy things. Hmm, does that sound right to you?
Anyway presuming He has He's made the world filled it up and then put us in it and then when we become attracted to all the "unholy" things that He's put there and come to find we enjoy it He interrupts us. Now remember we don't get to choose what we enjoy we just find that we do.
And when we have done so God comes along and says, no you can't no near that, it's bad for you I forbid it. Now to a bunch of children as we are this isn't like a loving father come along and showing how much He cares about us it's like the big bully of a bigger kid coming along and stamping on all our toys because they're 'carnal'. Well they're not carnal because of anything we decided and our liking them isn't our fault. Does that really sound reasonable? Not to a lot of skeptics that for sure.
If Jesus asked me the question He asked Martha I'm not sure I could honestly answer 'yes', I'd be thinking but I'm not sure whether I really 'believe it' the way He means 'believe it' this is my concern.
Paul may say our works will be burned up but we'll be saved as by fire, but since James says faith without works is dead, it would seem my faith is definitely dead. As is anyone who's works gets burned up, because they've been burned up they haven't got any either. So when Paul says saved as by fire he presumably means in the second or third order too.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 15, 2016, 06:43:11 PM
The blood of Jesus is sufficient for all of our sins.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
No one is worthy. We all stumble in many ways. He loves us and will never leave us or forsake us.
"If our hearts condemn us, He is greater than our hearts and knows all things." 1 John 3:20
Yeah, big 'if'. I have absolutely no idea what my sins are any more. Quite possibly everything.
QuoteI'm sure I did, probably several times because this makes my head spin and I struggle to know exactly what I think but frequent gravitate to things like this. I'll try to explain it this God.
God made the world and all the things of the world then He made us and put us in the world and be gravitate towards the things of the world because they're what we're most familiar with and are closest to us. Following this to its conclusion God, the Holy One source of all Holiness seems to have made an awful lot of unholy things. Hmm, does that sound right to you?
Anyway presuming He has He's made the world filled it up and then put us in it and then when we become attracted to all the "unholy" things that He's put there and come to find we enjoy it He interrupts us. Now remember we don't get to choose what we enjoy we just find that we do.
And when we have done so God comes along and says, no you can't no near that, it's bad for you I forbid it. Now to a bunch of children as we are this isn't like a loving father come along and showing how much He cares about us it's like the big bully of a bigger kid coming along and stamping on all our toys because they're 'carnal'. Well they're not carnal because of anything we decided and our liking them isn't our fault. Does that really sound reasonable? Not to a lot of skeptics that for sure.
If Jesus asked me the question He asked Martha I'm not sure I could honestly answer 'yes', I'd be thinking but I'm not sure whether I really 'believe it' the way He means 'believe it' this is my concern.
Paul may say our works will be burned up but we'll be saved as by fire, but since James says faith without works is dead, it would seem my faith is definitely dead. As is anyone who's works gets burned up, because they've been burned up they haven't got any either. So when Paul says saved as by fire he presumably means in the second or third order too.
Thank you I was going to put that scripture up about all our works being burned up CST!
And did not for the sake of a long post , all drawn out ...
I am a realist too ,
Did God make me that way and am not to complain about the great POTTER . when placed on potters wheel going around and round before the fire and kiln to be set ?
Used and broken in the earths handing of that precious Word inside it ?
I am not so much a fantasy land thinker these days ...
Yet I am waiting my turn to be changed as well
I was extremely comforted to know and read Ecc , 3 especially the part about God setting eternity in our hearts and we can never know the work of God in it from the beginning to the end ......
I do believe this world is the small step where our faith is developed into greater works than these because JESUS went back to the Father from where He come from in the first place and what if that tiny seed of the WORD being deposited in our hearts is what returns also ?
There is a time for everything and never feel ready ? , but God is the one whom decides when the time to die is and the time to live and plant etc ?
What if this was all the tree of knowledge of good and evil experience and we are tasting of both death and life ?
Eve , mother of all the living ,,, found it appealing to the eye and making one wise , what if the carnal mind is satan's only entrance to the heart ? so he can reign for a time over the bodies of death , till Life comes for the dead in Christ to rise ? the tree of Life is the goal and to eat of its fruit to have HIS LIFE in us ..
Gen 3 The Serpent's Deception
...5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise,
she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and
they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
What if the knowing the nakedness is the sin and exposed for what it is ?
and to be clothed in Christ is the covering , His blood is what we now must eat and drink more and more of , to have His Life in us ?
More of Him and less of her , the great whore of religious luxury with the kings of the earth ?
What if it is as simple as Abraham whom was a friend of God and walked with HIM ? Sounds spiritual to me , God was never the God of the dead or the flesh but of the Spirit and life found in it and LOVE is that root of the fruits of the Spirit
rooted and grounded in Love in Christ !
two scriptures saying the same things
16that
He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
rooted and grounded in Christ the LOVE OF GOD shed abroad in our hearts , this LIGHT so it grows in the truth and grace and increase of God ...
Alive in Christ
6Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7having been
firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed
, and overflowing with gratitude.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world,
rather than according to Christ....
Learning to hear His voice and obey it , hearing what the Spirit is saying and trusting in it completely , now this easier said than done , I do believe we get to learn though all them experiences as to building Up in Him only and let the other things alone , instead of the visa versa when we first believed in salvation , cause we do tend to do as we know at first and our salvation is nearer than when we first believed ....
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
yes...fear based religion includes love but an awful lot of nasty 'fear' and worry...and no wonder..if one believes in a god who is capable of tormenting human beings forever without end or any mercy at all that must create alot of worry and fear inside...both fear and worry for oneself and certainly fear for one's loved ones you worry about going there (to never ending torment in hell ) :sigh:
Quote from: darryl on April 16, 2016, 01:51:07 AM
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
yes...fear based religion includes love but an awful lot of nasty 'fear' and worry...and no wonder..if one believes in a god who is capable of tormenting human beings forever without end or any mercy at all that must create alot of worry and fear inside...both fear and worry for oneself and certainly fear for one's loved ones you worry about going there (to never ending torment in hell ) :sigh:
:thumbsup: Agreed ...... worry is the torment of self, of both the heart and the mind (soul)
Quote"Learning to hear His voice and obey it , hearing what the Spirit is saying and trusting in it completely , now this easier said than done , I do believe we get to learn though all them experiences as to building Up in Him only and let the other things alone , instead of the visa versa when we first believed in salvation , cause we do tend to do as we know at first and our salvation is nearer than when we first believed .... "
This is very good and has a strong relevance to this...
QuoteI have absolutely no idea what my sins are any more. Quite possibly everything.
I see this as about temptation and obedience. In my opinion, these two words, properly understood, go a long way to explaining the bigger picture.
In ancient days the people of that time – the children of Israel – were relatively undeveloped in their spiritual minds. They required the "thou shalt nots". Today, even those who have received only an ethical teaching do not need to be told not to murder and not to steal – they know. But in order to protect the children of Israel in days of old from themselves and the evil influences around, the God of their salvation had to say through His chosen mediator: "thou shalt not".
Later on, Christ was able to speak in a different tone to those children now that their consciousness contained a deeply embedded understanding of right and wrong as far as awareness of sin was concerned. A different tone - so it is with spiritual development of humanity, as slow as it might appear, but it happens according to God's overall plans. There comes a time when a different tone is required by the spiritual needs of humanity.
And today, a greater measure of freedom and control has been gained over impulses which are primitive. Now the temptations come in a subtle form which is sometimes not even noticed until it is too late and the damage is done and only through remorse are things set aright – far more subtle temptations than those older injunctions were meant to address.
Personally, I made a commitment to the higher Self within and to my Father God that I would be a better person in His service, to always try harder, and to thank God that Jesus Christ represented Him for all humanity to benefit from His sweet influence which He laid down through His life-time of care and work, and by His taking up His Mission as He went about teaching and healing and preaching His Gospel of the Kingdom of God, and by the demonstration of His love upon the Cross.
That commitment brings about a deep change in a person's heart and mind. That person seeks the righteous path. That person is seeking the Will of God in his or her life. Yet the habits developed whilst living under another ruler have been etched into the physical mind and occasionally a snap-back is felt - but the same rule of habit works the other way too for the glory of God, and victory after victory becomes the norm - but always beware and be prepared because the enemy is always looking for the gap caused by the missing brick into which to fire the darts that cause the heart to ache.
So, during that life, there will be thousands upon thousands of temptations and many choices to make.
I believe, there are base and gross sins and there are sins of a different character, far more subtle, far more difficult to pin down and identify. But all sins are outside of Christ who lives within, who sits on His throne, and the time must come when Christ rules completely and obedience to Him is in perfect harmony where sin and death have ceased to exist.
This is where obedience comes in. This is where faith and trust come in.
Obedience because it is true protection, it is the spiritual life and the power to live it.
Faith and trust because the person is not sure of what these subtle temptations are. Therefore the person has to pray to God and have the faith and trust that He will answer.
"Is this a sin? Is that a sin? Am I being arbitrary because my baser self has gained the high ground or is this a fair decision? Am I clean enough to approach the Holy Spirit and have I ensured there are no lurking sins in my mind? Does this come up to the highest standards of love expected by my God and does He mind me having what the earthly-minded take for granted? I wish I could know, will you tell me please God?"
God knows that the child is growing up and the Spirit within has plans for that child, and although God could make it plain what is the path to follow, it is left up to the child to believe that the choice they make is the right choice because they have asked for guidance.
And that is where faith and trust comes in. It is no use asking God for guidance and then not believing that He has heard and given the guidance. No, God has heard and God, the perfect Father, is leaving it up to the child for the course of action to take – to cooperate with Him, blending the will with His Will so that His Will is done. So whatever course of action the child takes, that child should believe that God will guide that child into the right path on which to travel. Faith and trust – the child grows.
So my opinion is renew the heart and mind with prayer and meditation every day and renew the commitment to always seek the highest and the best and never settle for second, third, fourth or fifth best because anything but first best influences others, so the responsibility is great. That is my opinion. There will be failures but the time comes when every temptation to sin is seen for what it is and is overcome by the power of the Christ within – He is Lord, one just has to learn to recognise Him – and what a beautiful treasure – the beautiful treasure which instructs through the power of love and which demonstrates, in a tiny measure because it goes well beyond one's ability to endure, the longing and yearning felt for each and every one of His children. When that kind of love is felt for others in the tiniest measure, then words, pettiness and all differences fade into obscurity as the only matter of moment is seeking His Will that He might show a way of Service to relieve His suffering for His children.
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
Fear of the unknown , till we get to Know the heart of God though Jesus Christ ,God whom is Love, that cast out the fear :HeartThrob:
Rejoicing in Trials
...3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4 And
let endurance have its perfect result,
so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
5But if any of you lacks wisdom,
let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him....
Quote from: rosered on April 16, 2016, 01:56:54 AM
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
Fear of the unknown , till we get to Know the heart of God though Jesus Christ ,God whom is Love, that cast out the fear :HeartThrob:
Rejoicing in Trials
...3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4 And let endurance have its perfect result,
so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him....
Amen Rose :iagree:
and that is how we receive:
"the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:7)
Quote
"Is this a sin? Is that a sin? Am I being arbitrary because my baser self has gained the high ground or is this a fair decision? Am I clean enough to approach the Holy Spirit and have I ensured there are no lurking sins in my mind? Does this come up to the highest standards of love expected by my God and does He mind me having what the earthly-minded take for granted? I wish I could know, will you tell me please God?"
God knows that the child is growing up and the Spirit within has plans for that child, and although God could make it plain what is the path to follow, it is left up to the child to believe that the choice they make is the right choice because they have asked for guidance.
And that is where faith and trust comes in. It is no use asking God for guidance and then not believing that He has heard and given the guidance. No, God has heard and God, the perfect Father, is leaving it up to the child for the course of action to take – to cooperate with Him, blending the will with His Will so that His Will is done. So whatever course of action the child takes, that child should believe that God will guide that child into the right path on which to travel. Faith and trust – the child grows.
Amen , what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is Spirit and they are worlds apart :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 02:05:39 AM
Quote from: rosered on April 16, 2016, 01:56:54 AM
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
Fear of the unknown , till we get to Know the heart of God though Jesus Christ ,God whom is Love, that cast out the fear :HeartThrob:
Rejoicing in Trials
...3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4 And let endurance have its perfect result,
so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him....
Amen Rose :iagree:
and that is how we receive:
"the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:7)
amen , dwell on the things above ! :dsunny:
if there be anything lovely anything pure dwell on these Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God....
Quote from: lastpost on April 16, 2016, 01:56:41 AM
In ancient days the people of that time – the children of Israel – were relatively undeveloped in their spiritual minds. They required the "thou shalt nots". Today, even those who have received only an ethical teaching do not need to be told not to murder and not to steal – they know. But in order to protect the children of Israel in days of old from themselves and the evil influences around, the God of their salvation had to say through His chosen mediator: "thou shalt not".
Seeing all of mankind throughout time as one child being taught by the Father is to see the love of a Father
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:55:31 AM
Quote from: darryl on April 16, 2016, 01:51:07 AM
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
yes...fear based religion includes love but an awful lot of nasty 'fear' and worry...and no wonder..if one believes in a god who is capable of tormenting human beings forever without end or any mercy at all that must create alot of worry and fear inside...both fear and worry for oneself and certainly fear for one's loved ones you worry about going there (to never ending torment in hell ) :sigh:
:thumbsup: Agreed ...... worry is the torment of self, of both the heart and the mind (soul)
yup ! :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on April 15, 2016, 08:53:55 PM
QuoteI'm sure I did, probably several times because this makes my head spin and I struggle to know exactly what I think but frequent gravitate to things like this. I'll try to explain it this God.
God made the world and all the things of the world then He made us and put us in the world and be gravitate towards the things of the world because they're what we're most familiar with and are closest to us. Following this to its conclusion God, the Holy One source of all Holiness seems to have made an awful lot of unholy things. Hmm, does that sound right to you?
Anyway presuming He has He's made the world filled it up and then put us in it and then when we become attracted to all the "unholy" things that He's put there and come to find we enjoy it He interrupts us. Now remember we don't get to choose what we enjoy we just find that we do.
And when we have done so God comes along and says, no you can't no near that, it's bad for you I forbid it. Now to a bunch of children as we are this isn't like a loving father come along and showing how much He cares about us it's like the big bully of a bigger kid coming along and stamping on all our toys because they're 'carnal'. Well they're not carnal because of anything we decided and our liking them isn't our fault. Does that really sound reasonable? Not to a lot of skeptics that for sure.
If Jesus asked me the question He asked Martha I'm not sure I could honestly answer 'yes', I'd be thinking but I'm not sure whether I really 'believe it' the way He means 'believe it' this is my concern.
Paul may say our works will be burned up but we'll be saved as by fire, but since James says faith without works is dead, it would seem my faith is definitely dead. As is anyone who's works gets burned up, because they've been burned up they haven't got any either. So when Paul says saved as by fire he presumably means in the second or third order too.
Thank you I was going to put that scripture up about all our works being burned up CST!
And did not for the sake of a long post , all drawn out ...
I am a realist too ,
Did God make me that way and am not to complain about the great POTTER . when placed on potters wheel going around and round before the fire and kiln to be set ?
Used and broken in the earths handing of that precious Word inside it ?
I am not so much a fantasy land thinker these days ...
Yet I am waiting my turn to be changed as well
I was extremely comforted to know and read Ecc , 3 especially the part about God setting eternity in our hearts and we can never know the work of God in it from the beginning to the end ......
I do believe this world is the small step where our faith is developed into greater works than these because JESUS went back to the Father from where He come from in the first place and what if that tiny seed of the WORD being deposited in our hearts is what returns also ?
There is a time for everything and never feel ready ? , but God is the one whom decides when the time to die is and the time to live and plant etc ?
What if this was all the tree of knowledge of good and evil experience and we are tasting of both death and life ?
Eve , mother of all the living ,,, found it appealing to the eye and making one wise , what if the carnal mind is satan's only entrance to the heart ? so he can reign for a time over the bodies of death , till Life comes for the dead in Christ to rise ? the tree of Life is the goal and to eat of its fruit to have HIS LIFE in us ..
Gen 3 The Serpent's Deception
...5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise,
she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
What if the knowing the nakedness is the sin and exposed for what it is ?
and to be clothed in Christ is the covering , His blood is what we now must eat and drink more and more of , to have His Life in us ?
More of Him and less of her , the great whore of religious luxury with the kings of the earth ?
What if it is as simple as Abraham whom was a friend of God and walked with HIM ? Sounds spiritual to me , God was never the God of the dead or the flesh but of the Spirit and life found in it and LOVE is that root of the fruits of the Spirit
rooted and grounded in Love in Christ !
two scriptures saying the same things
16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
rooted and grounded in Christ the LOVE OF GOD shed abroad in our hearts , this LIGHT so it grows in the truth and grace and increase of God ...
Alive in Christ
6Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ....
Learning to hear His voice and obey it , hearing what the Spirit is saying and trusting in it completely , now this easier said than done , I do believe we get to learn though all them experiences as to building Up in Him only and let the other things alone , instead of the visa versa when we first believed in salvation , cause we do tend to do as we know at first and our salvation is nearer than when we first believed ....
Bleuugghh!
I still hate that scripture about the great potter. I first encountered it when I accepted ET and to read it in context it just sounds like an argument for predetermination and a way to say that no one can complain if God has made the to ultimately go to Hell forever. Can the pot challenge the potter? If the potter gives the pot awareness and then claims to love the pot like all His other pots that He made for special purpose, yes it can.
I'm very wary of Ecclesiastes. This is the book that opens declaring that 'all is vanity'. Really? Is God is the habit of making vain things en masse? I wouldn't have thought so. That said the part your referencing is rather nice.
It's interesting you reference that part of the Eden story but don't think of the part that led to it in this case.
God gave to man, as food for his fleshy appetite, all the trees in the garden, excepting that one. And he was permitted to indulge that appetite and he appears to have had no appetite for the tree of knowledge until the serpent put it in the woman's head.
Now suddenly the spirit and the flesh are enemies and the spirit apparently seeks the good and the flesh the evil but why. And surely they aren't meant to remain enemies.
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
Perfect love does, but who of us has that?
Quote from: darryl on April 16, 2016, 01:51:07 AM
Quote from: jugghead on April 16, 2016, 01:33:45 AM
worry is just another form of fear ..... does not love cast out all fear?
yes...fear based religion includes love but an awful lot of nasty 'fear' and worry...and no wonder..if one believes in a god who is capable of tormenting human beings forever without end or any mercy at all that must create alot of worry and fear inside...both fear and worry for oneself and certainly fear for one's loved ones you worry about going there (to never ending torment in hell ) :sigh:
Or if you believe God doesn't care for anything that you care for. It's a very unpleasant position to be in.
Quote from: lastpost on April 16, 2016, 01:56:41 AM
Quote"Learning to hear His voice and obey it , hearing what the Spirit is saying and trusting in it completely , now this easier said than done , I do believe we get to learn though all them experiences as to building Up in Him only and let the other things alone , instead of the visa versa when we first believed in salvation , cause we do tend to do as we know at first and our salvation is nearer than when we first believed .... "
This is very good and has a strong relevance to this...
QuoteI have absolutely no idea what my sins are any more. Quite possibly everything.
I see this as about temptation and obedience. In my opinion, these two words, properly understood, go a long way to explaining the bigger picture.
In ancient days the people of that time – the children of Israel – were relatively undeveloped in their spiritual minds. They required the "thou shalt nots". Today, even those who have received only an ethical teaching do not need to be told not to murder and not to steal – they know. But in order to protect the children of Israel in days of old from themselves and the evil influences around, the God of their salvation had to say through His chosen mediator: "thou shalt not".
Later on, Christ was able to speak in a different tone to those children now that their consciousness contained a deeply embedded understanding of right and wrong as far as awareness of sin was concerned. A different tone - so it is with spiritual development of humanity, as slow as it might appear, but it happens according to God's overall plans. There comes a time when a different tone is required by the spiritual needs of humanity.
And today, a greater measure of freedom and control has been gained over impulses which are primitive. Now the temptations come in a subtle form which is sometimes not even noticed until it is too late and the damage is done and only through remorse are things set aright – far more subtle temptations than those older injunctions were meant to address.
Personally, I made a commitment to the higher Self within and to my Father God that I would be a better person in His service, to always try harder, and to thank God that Jesus Christ represented Him for all humanity to benefit from His sweet influence which He laid down through His life-time of care and work, and by His taking up His Mission as He went about teaching and healing and preaching His Gospel of the Kingdom of God, and by the demonstration of His love upon the Cross.
That commitment brings about a deep change in a person's heart and mind. That person seeks the righteous path. That person is seeking the Will of God in his or her life. Yet the habits developed whilst living under another ruler have been etched into the physical mind and occasionally a snap-back is felt - but the same rule of habit works the other way too for the glory of God, and victory after victory becomes the norm - but always beware and be prepared because the enemy is always looking for the gap caused by the missing brick into which to fire the darts that cause the heart to ache.
So, during that life, there will be thousands upon thousands of temptations and many choices to make.
I believe, there are base and gross sins and there are sins of a different character, far more subtle, far more difficult to pin down and identify. But all sins are outside of Christ who lives within, who sits on His throne, and the time must come when Christ rules completely and obedience to Him is in perfect harmony where sin and death have ceased to exist.
This is where obedience comes in. This is where faith and trust come in.
Obedience because it is true protection, it is the spiritual life and the power to live it.
Faith and trust because the person is not sure of what these subtle temptations are. Therefore the person has to pray to God and have the faith and trust that He will answer.
"Is this a sin? Is that a sin? Am I being arbitrary because my baser self has gained the high ground or is this a fair decision? Am I clean enough to approach the Holy Spirit and have I ensured there are no lurking sins in my mind? Does this come up to the highest standards of love expected by my God and does He mind me having what the earthly-minded take for granted? I wish I could know, will you tell me please God?"
God knows that the child is growing up and the Spirit within has plans for that child, and although God could make it plain what is the path to follow, it is left up to the child to believe that the choice they make is the right choice because they have asked for guidance.
And that is where faith and trust comes in. It is no use asking God for guidance and then not believing that He has heard and given the guidance. No, God has heard and God, the perfect Father, is leaving it up to the child for the course of action to take – to cooperate with Him, blending the will with His Will so that His Will is done. So whatever course of action the child takes, that child should believe that God will guide that child into the right path on which to travel. Faith and trust – the child grows.
So my opinion is renew the heart and mind with prayer and meditation every day and renew the commitment to always seek the highest and the best and never settle for second, third, fourth or fifth best because anything but first best influences others, so the responsibility is great. That is my opinion. There will be failures but the time comes when every temptation to sin is seen for what it is and is overcome by the power of the Christ within – He is Lord, one just has to learn to recognise Him – and what a beautiful treasure – the beautiful treasure which instructs through the power of love and which demonstrates, in a tiny measure because it goes well beyond one's ability to endure, the longing and yearning felt for each and every one of His children. When that kind of love is felt for others in the tiniest measure, then words, pettiness and all differences fade into obscurity as the only matter of moment is seeking His Will that He might show a way of Service to relieve His suffering for His children.
Yeah, but obedience is basically do what you told, when we haven't always been told, and temptation is a way of say desire that implies the object of desire you shouldn't desire, you don't decide that someone else does.
I should point out that, as far as can be ascertained no one had said, thou shalt not murder to Cain who preceded Israel, he still clearly had picked up the ethical training from somewhere. So where'd it go between him and Isreal?
I did the sort of thing you're describing I prayed for God to help me overcome sins I perceived I had. I did this for years. The sin remains still but my doubt that it is a sin has grown. Maybe God wants me to have this at the moment, almost certainly He does or His will is being thwarted, but then who am I to pray against His will. I've tried it just got worse. :dunno2:
But I fear now that we're really going off topic so this may be a bad idea.
QuoteBleuugghh!
I still hate that scripture about the great potter. I first encountered it when I accepted ET and to read it in context it just sounds like an argument for predetermination and a way to say that no one can complain if God has made the to ultimately go to Hell forever. Can the pot challenge the potter? If the potter gives the pot awareness and then claims to love the pot like all His other pots that He made for special purpose, yes it can.
I'm very wary of Ecclesiastes. This is the book that opens declaring that 'all is vanity'. Really? Is God is the habit of making vain things en masse? I wouldn't have thought so. That said the part your referencing is rather nice.
It's interesting you reference that part of the Eden story but don't think of the part that led to it in this case.
God gave to man, as food for his fleshy appetite, all the trees in the garden, excepting that one. And he was permitted to indulge that appetite and he appears to have had no appetite for the tree of knowledge until the serpent put it in the woman's head.
Now suddenly the spirit and the flesh are enemies and the spirit apparently seeks the good and the flesh the evil but why. And surely they aren't meant to remain enemies.
Oh Dear , Chris !
I think the flesh part is the vanity every ''creature ''is subject to bro :mblush:
All of it has to do with ''in the beginning ''
All mankind/Adam hope was in death , now since the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ that has since changed in my most sincere opinion .
and to be living 930 years vexing the Spirit of Life , I do think God is being merciful to shorten the days of our flesh after being ''dipped '' in death for so long of time it would be hard to even lift your head up much less find any joy in the things that are fleeting [lasting for a very short time.]from your grasp
This place/ WORLD is all about LOSS and being human , leading me to believe it is the man of sin suffering loss /perdition waste , corruption
seems we get to experience this , all of us to a certain degree , some more than others , to me this is why we harden our hearts as to not ''feel anything '' any longer
Our greatest hope is in LIFE and that is though the Spirit of everlasting life , being connected to something so much more greater and purer than we could have ever imagined , I do believe being ''Awakened '' to that , tasting God and knowing His goodness , that makes us hunger and thirst for more of THE SPIRIT OF LIFE and dwell on less and less of the death realm in thoughts holding us prisoner to it .
the above thinking over the below mentality determines our spiritual health and well being , what is it to be spiritually sick ?
and angry at God for a life you cannot enjoy because it goes against your very nature or more so His very nature ?
The work OF GOD sending the Son of man and Son of God is reconciling all things unto Himself , we have nothing to offer Him except a thankful heart for Him doing this for us .. something we tried to do on our own and could never bear it , He bore our griefs and knows the vanity and fruitless errors of trying to save ourselves and dying though the process , some things are just better off dead than letting the evil continue and touching more and more and causing it to corrupt also
you heard the saying , One bad apple spoils the whole barrel ? Well we have one GOOD THING , BEING THE WORD OF GOD making them all good from the bad experiences , and we dont get to know the full impact till the flesh is no more a problem
Some are tasting the Spirit of life now and are desiring more Life as death seems to be lesser of a problem in them , raising the dead to Life again is a state of just being content with what the Lord is doing by faith in more of that Life shinning though and less darkness to deal with that used to ''consume them'' and swallow them up whole
I recall not being able to just ''snap out of it '' as some would say , but I thank God I no longer wallow in that self pity and anger and fits of rage that often come upon me in my youth , blaming God for all those things that seemed so unfair and cruel to try and live with along with myself that self loathing of failure and defeat , being ''dipped '' or baptised in death at every turn , there is no place to go , but cry out to GOD for some mercy on your life that seems impossible to bear
God knows when you are at the ''end of your rope '' and just hanging by a thread , this seems to be when He shows up , in our darkest hour , a ray of Light and hope comes shining though .
Hell to me, is a state of being , just as heaven is , How we feel has everything to do with where we are at .
Folks whom say you cannot go by your ''feelings '' are laughable to me now , they have hardened their own hearts as to NOT feel anything and that is just dead to me .
Dear CST,
Quote
Yeah, but obedience is basically do what you told, when we haven't always been told, and temptation is a way of say desire that implies the object of desire you shouldn't desire, you don't decide that someone else does.
I must ask indulgence, as unfortunately, it is only possible to make 'bold' statements concerning my own understanding because there is not the time or space to explain the deeper background to these conclusions.
God created man in His own Image. God is living within each one in the form of the Higher Self – the Spirit that He generously gave out of Himself, His own Substance when He created individuality, His children. What God has given as a precious jewel for each one to nurture and cherish, is of Himself - and that is who you really are in your innermost being. So yes, You are, in effect, telling yourself what to do and what not to do, You have a plan as to what will bring you the greatest gain for the Spirit, and your inner Spirit is cooperating with the great God to try to bring this about in the best manner possible.
While you sojourn in this world in which there is both good and evil, you have the opportunity to overcome - by faith – what has been hidden from you for your own sake. It is hidden otherwise you could not benefit from faith as you would not need faith if it was not hidden.
If a desire does not bring any gain to the real You, then it will - by default - continue to bind you as the lesser you. As I believe that the Spirit has chosen to undertake this earthly sojourn for its own benefit, then, yes again, the object (or non-object) of your desire is chosen by you as a temptation to overcome (or not if you pass out of this Earth in a state of complete failure in that area).
Quote
I should point out that, as far as can be ascertained no one had said, thou shalt not murder to Cain who preceded Israel, he still clearly had picked up the ethical training from somewhere. So where'd it go between him and Isreal?
I am of the belief that the Spirit came from God and was created in a state of Perfection. In God's Plan for the redemption of His children, He has permitted that some – a few - who have freed their Self in a greater measure than the others of that period and location, may take their earthly sojourn among others so that a bright flower may blossom and bring benefit to others who are around.
In this sense, I also believe that just because Jesus had harsh words of criticism for the Pharisees, this does not mean that every single person born as a Pharisee was as selfish and hypocritical – indeed, here and there, I believe, there was one who spoke up to the face of the Pharisees in general and received worldly detrimental effects to himself, even stoning (and again in this context, his own real Self would have gained by a law of compensation).
Quote
I did the sort of thing you're describing I prayed for God to help me overcome sins I perceived I had. I did this for years. The sin remains still but my doubt that it is a sin has grown.
It is not for me to say or judge what your own Spirit desires. I am simply pointing out my understanding of the issue. In my experience, it is possible to learn, to a certain degree, through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, something about the spiritual laws which are in effect in this material sphere of action (the physical universe). Coming to some kind of understanding (through faith) of this, then I find that one is able to come to a conclusion as to what is the highest and the best in the sight of the God who is Love, as far as a single issue is concerned. Settling for anything less is, in my opinion, simply putting off what the Spirit within wants to achieve until a later time; and when the body is cast off and the opportunity comes to see what could have been gained spiritually while the eyes were bound, and how difficult this task is now, only regret will be added to the mourning Spirit at its devastating loss.
This is just my opinion, but I do happen to believe it is true. And I cannot blame anyone else but myself for my shortcomings. I certainly cannot blame the Master Christ as He was the perfect Example shining on the horizon at all times, who was subject to temptations no other will ever or could ever be subjected to, and yet overcame all because He would not betray humanity, His higher Self or the Godhead from whence He had come, by giving in to the way of the world.
As you say, there is a limit to what can be said here, so I apologise if I cannot explain myself more clearly.
Quote from: rosered on April 16, 2016, 06:33:47 PM
QuoteBleuugghh!
I still hate that scripture about the great potter. I first encountered it when I accepted ET and to read it in context it just sounds like an argument for predetermination and a way to say that no one can complain if God has made the to ultimately go to Hell forever. Can the pot challenge the potter? If the potter gives the pot awareness and then claims to love the pot like all His other pots that He made for special purpose, yes it can.
I'm very wary of Ecclesiastes. This is the book that opens declaring that 'all is vanity'. Really? Is God is the habit of making vain things en masse? I wouldn't have thought so. That said the part your referencing is rather nice.
It's interesting you reference that part of the Eden story but don't think of the part that led to it in this case.
God gave to man, as food for his fleshy appetite, all the trees in the garden, excepting that one. And he was permitted to indulge that appetite and he appears to have had no appetite for the tree of knowledge until the serpent put it in the woman's head.
Now suddenly the spirit and the flesh are enemies and the spirit apparently seeks the good and the flesh the evil but why. And surely they aren't meant to remain enemies.
Oh Dear , Chris !
I think the flesh part is the vanity every "creature "is subject to bro :mblush:
All of it has to do with "in the beginning "
All mankind/Adam hope was in death , now since the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ that has since changed in my most sincere opinion .
and to be living 930 years vexing the Spirit of Life , I do think God is being merciful to shorten the days of our flesh after being "dipped " in death for so long of time it would be hard to even lift your head up much less find any joy in the things that are fleeting [lasting for a very short time.]from your grasp
This place/ WORLD is all about LOSS and being human , leading me to believe it is the man of sin suffering loss /perdition waste , corruption
seems we get to experience this , all of us to a certain degree , some more than others , to me this is why we harden our hearts as to not "feel anything " any longer
Our greatest hope is in LIFE and that is though the Spirit of everlasting life , being connected to something so much more greater and purer than we could have ever imagined , I do believe being "Awakened " to that , tasting God and knowing His goodness , that makes us hunger and thirst for more of THE SPIRIT OF LIFE and dwell on less and less of the death realm in thoughts holding us prisoner to it .
the above thinking over the below mentality determines our spiritual health and well being , what is it to be spiritually sick ?
and angry at God for a life you cannot enjoy because it goes against your very nature or more so His very nature ?
The work OF GOD sending the Son of man and Son of God is reconciling all things unto Himself , we have nothing to offer Him except a thankful heart for Him doing this for us .. something we tried to do on our own and could never bear it , He bore our griefs and knows the vanity and fruitless errors of trying to save ourselves and dying though the process , some things are just better off dead than letting the evil continue and touching more and more and causing it to corrupt also
you heard the saying , One bad apple spoils the whole barrel ? Well we have one GOOD THING , BEING THE WORD OF GOD making them all good from the bad experiences , and we dont get to know the full impact till the flesh is no more a problem
Some are tasting the Spirit of life now and are desiring more Life as death seems to be lesser of a problem in them , raising the dead to Life again is a state of just being content with what the Lord is doing by faith in more of that Life shinning though and less darkness to deal with that used to "consume them" and swallow them up whole
I recall not being able to just "snap out of it " as some would say , but I thank God I no longer wallow in that self pity and anger and fits of rage that often come upon me in my youth , blaming God for all those things that seemed so unfair and cruel to try and live with along with myself that self loathing of failure and defeat , being "dipped " or baptised in death at every turn , there is no place to go , but cry out to GOD for some mercy on your life that seems impossible to bear
God knows when you are at the "end of your rope " and just hanging by a thread , this seems to be when He shows up , in our darkest hour , a ray of Light and hope comes shining though .
Hell to me, is a state of being , just as heaven is , How we feel has everything to do with where we are at .
Folks whom say you cannot go by your "feelings " are laughable to me now , they have hardened their own hearts as to NOT feel anything and that is just dead to me .
Bother, you misunderstood me. More evidence of my worthlessness. Still I don't suppose I can be surprised if I don't give you my examples properly. Did I say I blamed God? I don't think I did. I'm sure I do sometimes and I'm sure everyone does sometimes and that fact I hold as rather important but I don't think it was my primary motivator now. I'd better explain my arguments in responding to you and lastpost's concern.
First "In the begining":
'And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the Earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food."' (Genesis 1:29)
'the the LORD God formed man of the dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.' (Genesis 2:7)
'And the LORD God commanded the man saying, "You may eat freely of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day you eat of it you will die."' (Genesis 2:16, 17)
'So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
'Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh she shal be called Woman because she was taken out of Man."
'Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.
'And the man and his wife were both naked and they were not ashamed [embarrassed]' (Genesis 2:21-25)
That's just what it says I don't think I'm perverting anything in the text. The fact that man is made from the dust of the ground is why there are pottery references in the Bible the language used here is pottery language.
Man is clearly of flesh even though he's formed of dust but he is animated by spirit which is what the breath of life is and these things are in union that is why the spirit is not embarrassed by the bare flesh until after the fall. And then suddenly it is.
That conflict is a consequence of sin, I thought what Jesus did was meant to do away with all the consequences of sin. I thought that what a strong argument for the UR position.
Now why did I object to Paul's use of the pottery analogy? Well I'll give you it in context and hopefully I'll be able to explain it better.
'You will say to me "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder "Why have you made me thus?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?' (Romans 9:19-21)
Now so far I don't have a big problem with this 'special' and 'ordinary' as it is translated today do not necessarily equal good and bad. People can live an ordinary, very happy life while other can me used like some people Jesus healed, exactly so Jesus could heal them. That would be special use but not the greatest of lives, perhaps.
But so far it's just about OK, but then Paul says this:
'What if God, desiring to show his wrath and make known his power,
has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy,
which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles.' (Romans 9:22-24)
Whoa, there's no way anyone can believe in free will after that. Calvanists must love that, that's exactly what Calvinists believe isn't it? That there's a group of people (vessels) who God made to save and another He mad to damn and thus enhance the blessings on the saved.
That I protest. And so do many others, they invented the concept of free will because they didn't like what that passage clearly seems to suggest. But Paul is also referencing the likes of Isaiah perhaps not quite correctly and that is important and that I hope to return to later.
Finally you mentioned Ecclesiastes, Chapter 3 to be precise:
'He has made everything beautiful in its time; also he has put eternity in man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.' (Ecclesiastes 3:11)
It really is a fine passage people don't tend to translate it like that anymore they think 'eternity' won't make sense to the readers I imagine and 'beautiful' there are too many examples of things that don't seem so beautiful.
Chapter three also contains gems like,
'I know that there is nothing better for them than to be happy and enjoy themselves as long as they live; also that it is God's gift that everyone should eat and drink and take pleasure in all his toil.' (Ecclesiastes 3:12-13)
'So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should enjoy his work, for that is his lot; who can bring him to see what will be after him?' (Ecclesiastes 3:22)
Ahh, that's what I want to for always why does it seem so cynical and implausible in the context.
But Ecclesiastes says one other thing:
'What is crooked cannot be made straight, and what is lacking cannot be numbered.' (Ecclesiastes 1:15)
Seems pretty clear he's what John the Baptist says:
'As it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low,
and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God. (Luke 3:4-5)
Apparently God can do what Solomon thought couldn't be done and flesh here is exactly the same work as is used negatively in relation to the Spirit.
Thanks so much Chris ,
I am understanding your thoughts much better .
I thank you for taking the time to bother and also bring out the subtle differences . YAY!! :thumbsup:
All any of us can do it use the scriptures to explain how we come to our own thoughts and conclusions about them . Thanks for all the scriptures by the way.
Seems John 1 went on further to explain how we ''handle '' the Word of LIFE '' ... I think this is key/important to understanding Gods mercy/grace
Solomon was the wisest man on earth in his time , by God granting him wisdom from above , Jesus does declare at his time a greater then Solomon is here
and God says This is my beloved Son hear Him .. and He is the bread of heaven that come down to us [daily bread] , and Yet Jesus said man shall NOT live by bread alone but every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God .
and I do see those as the same judgments as past examples and results .
I loved how you brought up the ordinary life and the special and explained this excellent ! I do believe this is where the ''religious minds '' and circles fail the test .
And I am going to try my best to explain why I think the way I do , God knows that I beg for simplicity in Christ , it is the only way I can understand and not ''get confused '' by listening to many other voices and opinions that causes stumbling , when I first heard of UR ,when my sister told me
But many scriptures seemed to counter that and stumbled many times and it was the stumbling STONE and rock of offense that I was stumbling over
HIS WORD IS LIFE , but it kept bringing me to death over and over again .
I see the called and chosen few , like this now and it ''comforts '' instead of ''confuses '' peace and rest instead of unrest and conflict within by being .
I do see the earthly realm and negative energy and the positive energy of the HOLY ABOVE realm as being touched and ''a spark'' or charge is granted to an ordinary life or being and given a purpose to do what it is ''called to do '' without them even knowing the end results
All the prophets were called in their time to serve the LIVING GOD and what was it ? , but to warn like a trumpet blasting of a certain ''expectation '' of
disaster to happen if they remained in their ''sin'' error , they were all warning of a judgement GOD had told them to ''speak '' by the Spirit , that would
happen and yet , they were killed and tormented and mocked and disregarded and many times the disaster would happen on them .
For me this is the Christ in them [ anointing ] by the Spirit , they took on the same hated by the world suffering for doing what God asked them to do .
So this is why we have the dead in Christ rise first they have risen to a higher purpose than not only an ordinary life , but a special calling and chosen few , ordained from the beginning ,
for me the LAMB OF GOD is all the blood from the beginning of Abel to Zechariah from the foundation of the world , and Jesus tells us so
Luke 11 50so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,
51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.
' 52"Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.
This is why to me if you have broken one law you have broken them all and under the law of the cursed generation that receives the wrath of the LAMB
How does one get out from under the law of sin and death ? ROMANS 6 , 7 , 8 Paul goes on the explain it was Gods grace given to Him and we are no better or worse than Paul a murderer , that was not given permission to enter the KINGDOM OF GOD All positive things that begin to work in Him by being touched by God the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND LIFE ...
I do see that they will all be touched by God in the end because GOD is no respecter of persons just some arrive quicker than others will
JESUS CHRIST/WORD OF GOD HOLDS death and Life within HIMSELF there is nothing outside of HIM all enemies are under His feet / teaching , the earth is His footstool and resting His feet upon His enemies heads [Be of good cheer I have overcome the world ] every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS THE LORD that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
For me , Just as every WORD GOD SPOKE IN THE BEGINNING WOULD NOT RETURN TO HIM VOID , BUT IS HELD IN CHRIST ALREADY THEY JUST DO NOT KNOW IT YET but certainly will ! AND IS presented to the FATHER AS GOD BE ALL IN ALL
1 Cor 15 The Order of Resurrection
...27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.
But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him,
so that God may be all in all.
29Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
I hope this was clear and always struggle to be so , crystal clear , but it is how we think that makes all the difference I have noticed more so .
I have many good good folks whom shared what is in their hearts right here and the old Kingdom talk before it died when the owner died also
That I thank God for sending them to us in the Same Spirit of Life in Christ to help us along the way
Even you have helped me , as many do and don't always thank them but should encourage them also , I just Thank God for all . and mostly all He is doing for us . :HeartThrob:
:CryBaby: Thanks for trying to understand Rose unfortunately I don't think you can be cause I am a :fool:
You'll probably struggle to understand what I was saying because I wasn't finished. For time purposes I had to split my response between my answer to you and my answer to lastpost. And then because I am a :fool: while I was typing that reply and in another tab getting more Bible references I managed to closed the tap I was in here and lost everything I had written which was a lot. I don't have time to write it all again today so the above post is currently worthless because it won't make sense in the way it should. Clearly God did not want that post finishing today. Maybe another day.
Quote from: CST on April 12, 2016, 02:21:04 PM
I don't want to be saved "as through fire" I don't see that as being saved.
That's the only salvation there is.
If you read all the fire/testing/tormenting/pruning verses you will see that each and every of them is about refining in some way. Removing impurities in the refiners fire or with the launderers soap. And of course pruning. The word He always used in connection to punishment.
Quote from: CST on April 19, 2016, 07:02:09 PM
:CryBaby: Thanks for trying to understand Rose unfortunately I don't think you can be cause I am a :fool:
You'll probably struggle to understand what I was saying because I wasn't finished. For time purposes I had to split my response between my answer to you and my answer to lastpost. And then because I am a :fool: while I was typing that reply and in another tab getting more Bible references I managed to closed the tap I was in here and lost everything I had written which was a lot. I don't have time to write it all again today so the above post is currently worthless because it won't make sense in the way it should. Clearly God did not want that post finishing today. Maybe another day.
I so thank you for trying though Chris , an am sorry it was lost! :sigh:
This has happened to me as well and I also am a :fool: than
God willing you will be even more clear the next time around and be able to finish it perfectly ....
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 19, 2016, 10:59:27 PM
Quote from: CST on April 12, 2016, 02:21:04 PM
I don't want to be saved "as through fire" I don't see that as being saved.
That's the only salvation there is.
If you read all the fire/testing/tormenting/pruning verses you will see that each and every of them is about refining in some way. Removing impurities in the refiners fire or with the launderers soap. And of course pruning. The word He always used in connection to punishment.
Hey Bro T ,
Thanks and agree '' great input '' :iagree:
Our God is a consuming fire. The verse in question speaks of "works" of "wood, hay and stubble" being consumed by the fire. This is about motive, purity of heart, and a God who is gracious enough to consume the things we do for the wrong reasons- but not consume us :o)
Dear CST,
Blessings. I see you are busy. This internet medium is far from ideal for relaying the deeper sense of what we mean to others. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails miserably. The World Wide Web has its pros and its cons – and sometimes the cons can be very heavy, causing ill-feeling and even destruction of friendships, even over words themselves, yes: words and their construction and concepts. Human beings can be strange creatures sometimes.
I wonder how many hours of this God-given life have been spent attempting to re-explain something, even a single point, because one initial phrase was misinterpreted or not understood because no deeper foundation was first explained (or if it was it was not read), and in turn it has coloured what else is written, or what was being said was of such a different character to one's own understanding that it involved too much time to comprehend what was being said, and all this has taken up the time of the reader as well as the writer. It is just not possible to prefix every statement with clarifying issues, because few people have the time to read them, and few people have the time to write them.
While there are clearly spiritual benefits to an exchange of beliefs not least because the Spirit is at work on the minds and hearts of those involved should they listen, I personally find that there are limits to what can be gained. I believe that I need to understand how various groups or collections of mind-sets came to their conclusions and find this intriguing, and yet sometimes disheartening, on this site and certain others, when I hear the God who I know is Love attributed with a lesser love – but such is life. It is good to have day off from work but I believe that the Lord has more things lined up for my life than spending so much time in front of a computer screen. In any situation in life one can lift it up to the Most High and bring benefit to that situation, and in so doing humanity is brought one step closer to God. I believe that it is possible to always be in touch with God even in the busy streets, and in thinking only the highest and the best of the busy throng, so is God able to bless it – every thought that is expressed, every little act, every effort in life should be raised upwards to the highest degree.
I can see that we have very different views of the Creation in Genesis so I will not spend too much time attempting to explain the manner in which I see the Genesis of Life as a parable. I believe many people who use this forum see biblical Genesis as a literal event, however I believe that God has taken what was already in the minds of people at that time concerning the beginning of life, and imbued that belief with Spirit Power, meaning that it now conveys ideas of 'the beginnings of things' (because Truth is so immense and comprehensive that humans can only receive a reflection of an aspect of it). This Genesis story was already known in not dissimilar forms amongst other peoples of that time but God has taken it and filled it with Holy Spirit so that the words and symbols will always reach out to the minds of the seeker and convey something of God and Truth in some manner. God creates out of chaos – He does not destroy but He transmutes, reconciles, renews, like Christ who came not as an iconoclast to destroy but fulfil – He took what was there already and invigorated it, enlivened it with Spirit Power, and recharged a sorrowing people. This is, in my opinion, a universal principle by which the Lord God works throughout His vast and unlimited World of Spirit.
I would just deal with one point. If you read what I said, I tried to impress upon you that I was not speaking about you and your own situation, indeed, I should never want to be in a position to judge another's Spirit, for who am I to know? What I was saying is what was my understanding of obedience and temptation, and I then went into using the first person singular so as not to create any notion that I was speaking about your self specifically. I was saying, in general terms, the type of process that can happen to someone according to how they have lived their life – in my opinion.
It is my opinion (but I have no doubt) that when a person actually sees what the Lord has in store for those who love them, nobody who has felt the deep love of God will feel: "Ah yes, I really deserved all this, yes, God really should have given me all this wonderful life because I truly earned it!" No, not a bit of it, but I rather think that a genuine Spirit will feel: "Oh! It was all true after all, the Lord's promises were thousands of times more real than I ever could have imagined, and now I see that I did absolutely nothing to deserve this, how ungrateful I am. Oh my dear God, please show me some way that I may be able to show my gratitude to you for this undeserved Spiritual Life, I need to give you something back somehow, please provide me with some form of Service that I may show my gratitude to you. Oh how I wish I had tried harder while still in the body of flesh. Oh why did I not try more, how I wish I had tried to be more righteous, more caring, more gentle, more fair, more upright, more compassionate, more like a disciple for You gave me as much chance as them..." This gives the gist of how I see it, and I am not overdrawing the picture in one bit but rather dampening it down, but hope I have covered in as brief a space as possible a very basic and rudimentary aspect of what comes to the spiritually awakened when they receive the fruit of God's promises. What actually happens after this is beyond the remit of this site and one must be polite when visiting.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 06:58:04 AM
Our God is a consuming fire. The verse in question speaks of "works" of "wood, hay and stubble" being consumed by the fire. This is about motive, purity of heart, and a God who is gracious enough to consume the things we do for the wrong reasons- but not consume us :o)
Bro T was saying all the fires of Gods consuming and the oven etc , they all apply in some way as the burning away the things that offend .
True that was the scripture quote being works burned in Adam , wood hay stubble [earthly curse ]I think of the dragons flood of lies that the earth swallowed up to Help the woman , that produces briar and thorns . to prick us with and wake us UP!!
God did not curse Adam ,but instead "cursed the ground for your sake" and the works of vanity of spiritual immaturity , Cain was a tiller of the ground [Genesis 3:17-19].
God will not be giving His glory to another ITS ALL GOD and His amazing saving grace , we just must learn to obey our Fathers voice . saves you from a world of hurt .
nigh to cursing Hebrews 6 A Call to Maturity
...7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8
but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed,
and it ends up being burned.
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you,
and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way....
The better things that salvation brings though obedience
Jesus Christ is the PERFECT obedient SON even to death
Phil 2 The Attitude of Christ
...7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,...
I do believe that if one sticks to the Bible and trust the WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE they will not be disappointed at all , all answers are found in HIS OWN WORD
your own tag says it very well John
QuoteThe Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood
Quote from: lastpost on April 16, 2016, 06:45:37 PM
Dear CST,
Quote
Yeah, but obedience is basically do what you told, when we haven't always been told, and temptation is a way of say desire that implies the object of desire you shouldn't desire, you don't decide that someone else does.
I must ask indulgence, as unfortunately, it is only possible to make 'bold' statements concerning my own understanding because there is not the time or space to explain the deeper background to these conclusions.
God created man in His own Image. God is living within each one in the form of the Higher Self – the Spirit that He generously gave out of Himself, His own Substance when He created individuality, His children. What God has given as a precious jewel for each one to nurture and cherish, is of Himself - and that is who you really are in your innermost being. So yes, You are, in effect, telling yourself what to do and what not to do, You have a plan as to what will bring you the greatest gain for the Spirit, and your inner Spirit is cooperating with the great God to try to bring this about in the best manner possible.
While you sojourn in this world in which there is both good and evil, you have the opportunity to overcome - by faith – what has been hidden from you for your own sake. It is hidden otherwise you could not benefit from faith as you would not need faith if it was not hidden.
If a desire does not bring any gain to the real You, then it will - by default - continue to bind you as the lesser you. As I believe that the Spirit has chosen to undertake this earthly sojourn for its own benefit, then, yes again, the object (or non-object) of your desire is chosen by you as a temptation to overcome (or not if you pass out of this Earth in a state of complete failure in that area).
Quote
I should point out that, as far as can be ascertained no one had said, thou shalt not murder to Cain who preceded Israel, he still clearly had picked up the ethical training from somewhere. So where'd it go between him and Isreal?
I am of the belief that the Spirit came from God and was created in a state of Perfection. In God's Plan for the redemption of His children, He has permitted that some – a few - who have freed their Self in a greater measure than the others of that period and location, may take their earthly sojourn among others so that a bright flower may blossom and bring benefit to others who are around.
In this sense, I also believe that just because Jesus had harsh words of criticism for the Pharisees, this does not mean that every single person born as a Pharisee was as selfish and hypocritical – indeed, here and there, I believe, there was one who spoke up to the face of the Pharisees in general and received worldly detrimental effects to himself, even stoning (and again in this context, his own real Self would have gained by a law of compensation).
Quote
I did the sort of thing you're describing I prayed for God to help me overcome sins I perceived I had. I did this for years. The sin remains still but my doubt that it is a sin has grown.
It is not for me to say or judge what your own Spirit desires. I am simply pointing out my understanding of the issue. In my experience, it is possible to learn, to a certain degree, through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, something about the spiritual laws which are in effect in this material sphere of action (the physical universe). Coming to some kind of understanding (through faith) of this, then I find that one is able to come to a conclusion as to what is the highest and the best in the sight of the God who is Love, as far as a single issue is concerned. Settling for anything less is, in my opinion, simply putting off what the Spirit within wants to achieve until a later time; and when the body is cast off and the opportunity comes to see what could have been gained spiritually while the eyes were bound, and how difficult this task is now, only regret will be added to the mourning Spirit at its devastating loss.
This is just my opinion, but I do happen to believe it is true. And I cannot blame anyone else but myself for my shortcomings. I certainly cannot blame the Master Christ as He was the perfect Example shining on the horizon at all times, who was subject to temptations no other will ever or could ever be subjected to, and yet overcame all because He would not betray humanity, His higher Self or the Godhead from whence He had come, by giving in to the way of the world.
As you say, there is a limit to what can be said here, so I apologise if I cannot explain myself more clearly.
Second attempt at continuing this. I've read your later post, I'll, hopefully, respond to that later as I really need to get this done to complete what I was saying but I've noticed that our thoughts are, it seems, much less ill aligned than might have been previously suggested.
I think what you're saying here first speaks to the debate between 'faith in Jesus' and faith of Jesus' the former, more materialistic one is the one that holds we are entirely responsible for our own faith and, especially, in the modern understand, it is believing something unbelievable when there is no evidence to support it and may even be evidence to the contrary.
I don't think that's what faith is, faith is simply trusting that God will do the good He's said He's going to do when we've yet to see it because it's in our future, that and excepting the pledges, which are meant to be evidence of intent, He has given us of that.
I also don't really except the concept of the 'unreal' self which you are implicitly positing against the 'real' self. So where did the real self come from? Well obviously God didn't make it, why would He, He wants the 'real' self He wouldn't make another in conflict with it. And it can't have made its self nothing, except God can do that. So it must be a product of the 'real' self and therefore part of it. So I reject the logic of the 'unreal' self although I do get that humans like me can get conflicted and confused and deceive themselves incredibly there is only 'one' of any of us. I consider it a neglect of responsibility to invoke another version of me which is responsible for all my mistakes.
I do get the general sense behind the statement that desires that don't immediately profit us might seem to be sinful desires. But here's the thing passages like that one in Ecclesiastes and others in the Bible teach that we have a desire for the things of God than cannot be entirely fulfilled in this world. Knowing that to be true and not knowing the exact source of all my desires I can't see how it is possible that I can say for certain any desire is sinful. Even if it would have me do a sinful thing, while I know I should not do the sinful thing an otherwise noble desire may simply be misfiring.
I'm not quite sure here how what you have to say about Jesus' criticism of the Pharisees is pertinent to what I am trying to say. As far as I can tell though the Bible seems to be suggesting that not only was the Spirit created in a state of 'perfection' it remains in one. The flesh being the half that is drawn to sin. But that is not indefinite as is written in that passage I quoted to Rose from Luke. Except does it? Here is what John the Baptist was quoting according to Isaiah:
A voice cries: "In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:3-5)
As you can see there are a few differences. Nothing about the crooked being made straight directly, the quote is arranged differently (no idea how that happened) and the salvation has been replace with glory which does not have quite the same implication. How does that happen?
And this brings us back to Paul and the potter. You say to cannot blame Jesus for your failings? Oh, yes you can. You shouldn't and perhaps you don't but you can and to be honest I suspect we all do even if we reprimand ourselves afterwards.
I remember such thoughts kept me beholden to ET for a long time and I suspect it keeps many yet. Your brain may scream to you it is wrong, how dare our God do such a thing, like reading the vessel of destruction Vs. vessel of mercy thing above. But then you think. No it's what the Bible says, it's what God says. God must be right I must be wrong and that's that. But some people don't accept that and they because atheists and other 'enemies' of the faith and some in the faith invent the concept of free will. God didn't really make them that way from the beginning they have chosen to be and they have turned against God. I can find nothing in scripture that really supports free will much that opposes it and plenty that teaches sovereign predestination but people invent the concept of man's free moral agency to attempt to remove the responsibility, the 'blame' for the end of the damned, from God. But He is responsible and people will always find ways to blame God for things if they are so inclined and giving them free will won't take that away.
Here's what Isaiah actually says:
"Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter! Does the clay say to him who fashions it, 'What are you making'? or 'Your work has no handles'? (Isaiah 45:9)
See this is where Paul's getting it but Isaiah isn't finished.
Woe to him who says to a father, 'What are you begetting?' or to a woman, 'With what are you in travail?'" (Isaiah 45:10)
You see Paul misses this part, or just doesn't feel he needs it for what he's saying but it's important as Isaiah concludes:
Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "Will you question me about my children, or command me concerning the work of my hands? I made the earth, and created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host. I have aroused him in righteousness, and I will make straight all his ways; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward," says the LORD of hosts. I have aroused him in righteousness, and I will make straight all his ways; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward," says the LORD of hosts. (Isaiah 45:11-13)
And here, while crookedness is not mentioned it is definitely implied. But there is a common factor here that doesn't show through when Paul applies it. The factor is that when the challenge is made the work is not finished: so the question is premature. It's easy for every single one of us, including me and you, to find things to blame God for while we're still in progress. What happens when the work is finished and we find there's nothing to object to? Well Isaiah tells us:
"Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed [embarrassed, I think], all who were incensed against him. (Isaiah 45:24]
Easy? To read, yes. To understand, yes. To believe and live, not so much. Not when you've got stuff in your life that gives you great pleasure yet does you, it seems, no good and you've no idea if it's friend or foe or a mixture of both.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 19, 2016, 10:59:27 PM
Quote from: CST on April 12, 2016, 02:21:04 PM
I don't want to be saved "as through fire" I don't see that as being saved.
That's the only salvation there is.
If you read all the fire/testing/tormenting/pruning verses you will see that each and every of them is about refining in some way. Removing impurities in the refiners fire or with the launderers soap. And of course pruning. The word He always used in connection to punishment.
Yeah, EW has explained this quite well. In this context this is about our works more than about us. Your post here has kind of turned my former two part response into a three part response.
To repeat what is said above 1 John 4:18a reads 'There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear?' What, really? But God is love, and God is perfect so obviously God is perfect love. According to James 2:19 'You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.'
So God is perfect love and perfect love casts out fear so God casts out fear, so why do the demons shudder? And why am I so afraid of God? Why are so many of us so afraid of God?
Well, the answer, of course, is that God, while casting out fear, also casts out sin and that isn't entirely comfortable. Certainly not to a lot of people who are clinging to thinks that they have been told or expect are sin but are very precious to them and they've been told God is going to come along and confiscate all the things they enjoy playing with and then put them in some sort of torture chamber for an indeterminate period for playing with them.
And 1 John 4:18 doesn't help with this fear in the slightest because what it actually says in that verse is: 'There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.' See that, John is actually trying to qualify what were afraid of, which is semi right. The fear is loss and pain wrapped up in the punishment. The point is the quote contains a presumption that the audience will already have got rid of all the sinful things they might have to fear losing or being tormented over leaving only the 'good' stuff God approves of. In reality it's very hard to know that, I'm not sure what things I do and don't do that God is actually approving of but I suspect it's not high. Hence my concern here, I'm not even sure that I've done anything that would constitute works at all but no works is more likely to equal bad fruit than no fruit. John the Baptist tells us: 'Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.' There I am, being with no good works, off I go to Hell then, good reason to fear punishment. But suppose I've got bad works, well they'll be burned up leaving me right back where I started a bad tree that produces bad fruit and we know where they go.
In the same way James 2 says 'For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.' and if faith is what saved then dead faith condemns as much as unrighteousness. Burned worked = no works.
My concern here is that Paul somehow seems to be implying the work will be burnt (you will suffer loss) but you will personally be saved. Which seems inconsistent with everything else that's being said.
Quote from: rosered on April 19, 2016, 11:03:33 PM
Quote from: CST on April 19, 2016, 07:02:09 PM
:CryBaby: Thanks for trying to understand Rose unfortunately I don't think you can be cause I am a :fool:
You'll probably struggle to understand what I was saying because I wasn't finished. For time purposes I had to split my response between my answer to you and my answer to lastpost. And then because I am a :fool: while I was typing that reply and in another tab getting more Bible references I managed to closed the tap I was in here and lost everything I had written which was a lot. I don't have time to write it all again today so the above post is currently worthless because it won't make sense in the way it should. Clearly God did not want that post finishing today. Maybe another day.
I so thank you for trying though Chris , an am sorry it was lost! :sigh:
This has happened to me as well and I also am a :fool: than
God willing you will be even more clear the next time around and be able to finish it perfectly ....
No, it's not that you're a fool. I am not a fool because I did it, I did it because I am a fool. That doesn't mean there aren't other reasons for doing it.
Thanks for you post I know want to aplogize for how I opened the original post that confused you, I don't think that was a polite way to open a reply.
I hope then new version is clearer, though I don't believe that it's perfect.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 06:58:04 AM
Our God is a consuming fire. The verse in question speaks of "works" of "wood, hay and stubble" being consumed by the fire. This is about motive, purity of heart, and a God who is gracious enough to consume the things we do for the wrong reasons- but not consume us :o)
Thanks, this helped me formulate my own response.
Quote from: lastpost on April 20, 2016, 12:09:06 PM
Dear CST,
Blessings. I see you are busy. This internet medium is far from ideal for relaying the deeper sense of what we mean to others. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails miserably. The World Wide Web has its pros and its cons – and sometimes the cons can be very heavy, causing ill-feeling and even destruction of friendships, even over words themselves, yes: words and their construction and concepts. Human beings can be strange creatures sometimes.
I wonder how many hours of this God-given life have been spent attempting to re-explain something, even a single point, because one initial phrase was misinterpreted or not understood because no deeper foundation was first explained (or if it was it was not read), and in turn it has coloured what else is written, or what was being said was of such a different character to one's own understanding that it involved too much time to comprehend what was being said, and all this has taken up the time of the reader as well as the writer. It is just not possible to prefix every statement with clarifying issues, because few people have the time to read them, and few people have the time to write them.
While there are clearly spiritual benefits to an exchange of beliefs not least because the Spirit is at work on the minds and hearts of those involved should they listen, I personally find that there are limits to what can be gained. I believe that I need to understand how various groups or collections of mind-sets came to their conclusions and find this intriguing, and yet sometimes disheartening, on this site and certain others, when I hear the God who I know is Love attributed with a lesser love – but such is life. It is good to have day off from work but I believe that the Lord has more things lined up for my life than spending so much time in front of a computer screen. In any situation in life one can lift it up to the Most High and bring benefit to that situation, and in so doing humanity is brought one step closer to God. I believe that it is possible to always be in touch with God even in the busy streets, and in thinking only the highest and the best of the busy throng, so is God able to bless it – every thought that is expressed, every little act, every effort in life should be raised upwards to the highest degree.
I can see that we have very different views of the Creation in Genesis so I will not spend too much time attempting to explain the manner in which I see the Genesis of Life as a parable. I believe many people who use this forum see biblical Genesis as a literal event, however I believe that God has taken what was already in the minds of people at that time concerning the beginning of life, and imbued that belief with Spirit Power, meaning that it now conveys ideas of 'the beginnings of things' (because Truth is so immense and comprehensive that humans can only receive a reflection of an aspect of it). This Genesis story was already known in not dissimilar forms amongst other peoples of that time but God has taken it and filled it with Holy Spirit so that the words and symbols will always reach out to the minds of the seeker and convey something of God and Truth in some manner. God creates out of chaos – He does not destroy but He transmutes, reconciles, renews, like Christ who came not as an iconoclast to destroy but fulfil – He took what was there already and invigorated it, enlivened it with Spirit Power, and recharged a sorrowing people. This is, in my opinion, a universal principle by which the Lord God works throughout His vast and unlimited World of Spirit.
I would just deal with one point. If you read what I said, I tried to impress upon you that I was not speaking about you and your own situation, indeed, I should never want to be in a position to judge another's Spirit, for who am I to know? What I was saying is what was my understanding of obedience and temptation, and I then went into using the first person singular so as not to create any notion that I was speaking about your self specifically. I was saying, in general terms, the type of process that can happen to someone according to how they have lived their life – in my opinion.
It is my opinion (but I have no doubt) that when a person actually sees what the Lord has in store for those who love them, nobody who has felt the deep love of God will feel: "Ah yes, I really deserved all this, yes, God really should have given me all this wonderful life because I truly earned it!" No, not a bit of it, but I rather think that a genuine Spirit will feel: "Oh! It was all true after all, the Lord's promises were thousands of times more real than I ever could have imagined, and now I see that I did absolutely nothing to deserve this, how ungrateful I am. Oh my dear God, please show me some way that I may be able to show my gratitude to you for this undeserved Spiritual Life, I need to give you something back somehow, please provide me with some form of Service that I may show my gratitude to you. Oh how I wish I had tried harder while still in the body of flesh. Oh why did I not try more, how I wish I had tried to be more righteous, more caring, more gentle, more fair, more upright, more compassionate, more like a disciple for You gave me as much chance as them..." This gives the gist of how I see it, and I am not overdrawing the picture in one bit but rather dampening it down, but hope I have covered in as brief a space as possible a very basic and rudimentary aspect of what comes to the spiritually awakened when they receive the fruit of God's promises. What actually happens after this is beyond the remit of this site and one must be polite when visiting.
Thanks very much for that. I manage to estrange myself from just about everyone on t'internet because I'm so bad at being good at that or good at being bad at that or something. So that's helpful. Thank you. At the same time I think I'm better discussing scripture online then in speech where I'd just get tied up. I also share your belief about computer time although I'm getting less good at practicing it.
I don't really think we see the Creation that differently. I see it allegorically too but I think that makes what I wrote enhanced by that not reduced. If it was understood literally there's no need to read the union between the spirit and the flesh as anything other than a historical matter and so don't need to read in the later symbolic use of the terms. That said there a millions of ways of reading allegory not all of them mutually exclusive. I like the idea of Jesus coming to fix not destroy or expel. I like that it suggests, as I prefer to believe, most things we enjoy we enjoy because they are good but get abused not because they are inherently weapons or tools of evil.
Thanks for the clarification of your position I was trying to do similar yet I had to be clear for what I was trying to argue and there are certain, shall I say 'traps' that people many of us are inclined to fall into.
I suspect that last quote I posted to you from Isaiah states similar sentiments to those in my last response to you.
Quote from: rosered on April 20, 2016, 12:19:29 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 06:58:04 AM
Our God is a consuming fire. The verse in question speaks of "works" of "wood, hay and stubble" being consumed by the fire. This is about motive, purity of heart, and a God who is gracious enough to consume the things we do for the wrong reasons- but not consume us :o)
Bro T was saying all the fires of Gods consuming and the oven etc , they all apply in some way as the burning away the things that offend .
True that was the scripture quote being works burned in Adam , wood hay stubble [earthly curse ]I think of the dragons flood of lies that the earth swallowed up to Help the woman , that produces briar and thorns . to prick us with and wake us UP!!
God did not curse Adam ,but instead "cursed the ground for your sake" and the works of vanity of spiritual immaturity , Cain was a tiller of the ground [Genesis 3:17-19].
God will not be giving His glory to another ITS ALL GOD and His amazing saving grace , we just must learn to obey our Fathers voice . saves you from a world of hurt .
nigh to cursing Hebrews 6 A Call to Maturity
...7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way....
The better things that salvation brings though obedience
Jesus Christ is the PERFECT obedient SON even to death
Phil 2 The Attitude of Christ
...7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death,
even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,...
I do believe that if one sticks to the Bible and trust the WORD AND SPIRIT OF LIFE they will not be disappointed at all , all answers are found in HIS OWN WORD
your own tag says it very well John QuoteThe Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood
Hi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.
Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.
'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.
I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.
Where does it say God's last word on the subject was the ejection of Adam from the garden?
As a matter of fact, it wasnt, and thats Good News :o)
The reason was given "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever", and in Adam, man can still not eat of the tree of life, or enter the garden.
But Jesus promises that the tree of life and entrance into the garden is made available to all who believe.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
In Rev 21.....
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
..... We see that the tree of life will be available to heal the nations. This is consistent with the message of God's purpose in the ages to restore the whole creation.
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Rev 21
QuoteHi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.
Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.
'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.
I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.
Thank you so much Chris ,
You are very polite and kind and it is appreciated so much by me and trying to share what is in our hearts !!
Clearly you are correct in the term vanity in Hebrew the term as breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance and is considered as futile in todays terms
I thought of Abel when you replied to me ironically his name means the same
Abel
Meaning: a breath, vapor, or vanity / Hebrew: "Hebel" (Hebhel).
This was the name of the second son of Adam and Eve. He was put to death by his brother Cain (Genesis 4:1-16).
On the Sabbath, each of them offered up to God Abel from the first-fruits of his labors. and Cain what was given last , I believe this has meaning because He did not consider God first and give his firstfruits and that was why his offering was rejected ,
many say it was because it was of the earth , but I do not think folks study the words meanings well and error in them
Cain, as a tiller of the ground, 3So it came about
in the course of time end
end, at the end of (of time)
end (of space) that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.... Abel, as a shepherd, offered from the best of his flock.
I am convinced Cains offering would have been accepted if it was his best and first-fruits , but we can see this cause jealousy to kill his own brother
and so death was his work or fruits of his doings .
I understand Lastposts speech of the higher self being the Spiritual man born from above , and lower self as being the man of sin carnal and beastly in nature and of the earth , so not to take offense by his expressing his own way of speaking .
even Paul calls it the inner man being renewed daily 2 Cor 4 Treasures in Jars of Clay
...15For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.
16
Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
I am one who also understands Paul's speech better than I used to by the grace of God , and nothing else compares .
How can Abels name mean vanity , being spiritual ?
I have considered this wholeheartedly that when Eve conceived in child bearing , she has twins cain , a man from the Lord and Abel a breath , one conception and two births , out of the same womb / mind / heart etc. and mother of the living , being saved though child bearing
You would have to actually read this in context and this all may sound silly to some , but there is a purity and simplicity in Christ that is a beautiful treasure and very truthful and all connect to other verses giving us a Whole picture or concept to consider
So when you consider Cain with other scriptures they describe his works and name and meaning with end results
we can do the same with Abel , and why is it that Able is breath and vanity and futile ?
None of this can be figured out with easy answers and plain truth , but searched out and dug into , some things I have just considered helpful
Was Abel's blood cried out from the ground and yet he is dead and wanting revenge , to me this is spiritual immaturity
Christ is the full maturity in that when His blood was poured out He cried out to God on the cross , forgive them Father they don't know what they are doing
Jesus Christ is the name above all names under heaven by which we must be saved though
His teaching is to forgive and love our enemies , pray for them , sure signs of spiritual maturity [the fulness of Gods Spirit 7 spirits of GOD ] COMPLETE WORK OF THE CROSS
Paul said we are to count it as joy when persecuted and in my own spiritual immaturity it is a fail of the test , so knowing this and asking for more of Gods grace
same as He had done with the thorn in his flesh being a messenger of satan to buffet him , strike him on the cheek to turn the other one also ? I think so ,,,
because of all the revelations as to not get exalted in his own spirit and pride would ruin what God working in him had done in him already .
he died daily in the sense of life to us but death to him , having to keep pushing forward laying down the gospel of Jesus Christ as a foundation , as the ones under the law were opposing so greatly
But they did not understand fully the impact of the law of death being if you broke one you broke them all , so everything they were doing was vanity and futile
and only though Jesus Christ would any fruit to God as LIVING and good would be accepted ...
When Paul was changed from Saul , he learned many spiritual things , beautiful things and shared them with us , to help us all whom will listen , for me it is the same Spirit of Prophecy and voice of many waters that flow freely from above , that being the testimony of JESUS , he was carrying with him in his own heart as the others did also , Revealing Christ to us ...
We are not to hold any thing high but GOD HIMSELF , John was an example of how we also worship "messengers and teachers and folks of the WORD OF GOD , but it is error , we are to worship the HOLY HEAVENLY FATHER IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH /WORD ONLY
How can this be done ?
Rev 19 The Marriage of the Lamb
...9Then he said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he said to me, "These are true words of God." 10Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me,
"Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." rev 22 Jesus is Coming
...8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw,
I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God." 10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.... We learn there is no "magic formula " or ways to God but by Him only can we begin to grasp the WORD OF LIFE BY THE SPIRIT OF LIFE .
He will complete what He Alone started long ago and all glory is His , we can be ever so thankful for this truth .
I thought of leaving the form for awhile because so many pressing things of earthly junk to deal with , but the increase and rewards of Gods love , mercy and grace keep me pressing on in to it , you are one whom helps me to keep on keeping on , just by your kind and thoughtful posts and acknowledging a sharing Chris , that we are not so divided in thoughts after all
not a one of us can on our own have all truth but we are to strengthen one another and comfort one another with His WORD OF LIFE , When God "quickens " it by His grace
we have two places that speak as iniquity abounds /lawlessness increases our love will grow colder and its truth .
Witnessing to All Nations
...11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved....
Matthew 24:11
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Matthew 24:13
but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
James 1:21
Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and
humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.Revelation 2:4
Yet I hold this against you:
You have forsaken the love you had at first. Receiving Gods grace though the Lord Jesus Christ would allow grace to abound the more , our only Hope alive is in HIM living though us , His Life for ours , what would a man exchange for his life / being / soul ? what good is it to gain the whole world and loose your life / being / soul ?
Romans 5
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
...19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners,
even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase;
but where sin increased,
grace abounded all the more,
21so that, as sin reigned in death,
even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Jesus Christ said I AM THE RESURRECTION and the LIFE
John 11 Jesus Comforts Martha and Mary
...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
25Jesus said to her,
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
Blessed is he whom dies in the Lord rev 14 ...12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write,
'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "
Yes," says the Spirit, "
so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
labors are hardships , but the deeds are the righteous acts of the saints or holy ones found in CHRIST OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS [ACT OF THE CROSS]
Forgiving and loving keeping no record of wrong doing
the dead in CHRIST RISE FIRST and those alive will be living the Christ life in the here and now to me and never die !!
1thes 4 The Return of the Lord
...15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord,
will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord 18
Therefore comfort one another with these words..... Jesus said it , those whom die in the Lord will live and those found alive in Him never die and Paul revealed it further .
I believe Christ is the end for those whom believe and obey HIS WORD , before all being made alive and presented to the FATHER THE LIVING GOD AND ALL IN ALL ..
many men find this impossible to believe , but with God all things are possible !! :HeartThrob:
MATT 19 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said,
"Then who can be saved?" 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"...
ALL THINGS ARE YOURS 1 COR 3 Worldly Wisdom is Foolishness to God
...20and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." 21So then let no one boast in men.
For all things belong to you, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come;
all things belong to you, Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "
He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless."
So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. It a lot to take in , and took a long time for it to sink in deeply and yet there is still more of "all things "to come those experiences change us in many forms and ways and we learn of somthing very valuable though them all ...
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 08:17:08 PM
Where does it say God's last word on the subject was the ejection of Adam from the garden?
As a matter of fact, it wasnt, and thats Good News :o)
The reason was given "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever", and in Adam, man can still not eat of the tree of life, or enter the garden.
But Jesus promises that the tree of life and entrance into the garden is made available to all who believe.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
In Rev 21.....
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
..... We see that the tree of life will be available to heal the nations. This is consistent with the message of God's purpose in the ages to restore the whole creation.
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Rev 21
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 08:17:08 PM
Where does it say God's last word on the subject was the ejection of Adam from the garden?
As a matter of fact, it wasnt, and thats Good News :o)
The reason was given "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever", and in Adam, man can still not eat of the tree of life, or enter the garden.
But Jesus promises that the tree of life and entrance into the garden is made available to all who believe.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
In Rev 21.....
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
..... We see that the tree of life will be available to heal the nations. This is consistent with the message of God's purpose in the ages to restore the whole creation.
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. Eph 1
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Rom 8
5 And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Rev 21
:sigh: :doh:
See how I say something and then you read it that I've said the exact opposite thing, this is my problem how does this happen? We think the same we're saying the same thing. But this is what Ecclesiastes says:
'One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.' (1:4)
'There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.' (1:11)
'For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.' (1:18)
'For all his days are sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity.' (2:23)
'For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?' (3:20-22)
'Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.' (4:2)
'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.' (9:5-6)You referring to the New Testament, 'the Teacher' (Solomon according to tradition but I'm not so sure) belonged to the time of the Old Testament he didn't Christ's Gospel so wrote death as the final end to all flesh. That's what he's writing here, so much in Ecclesiastes seems to contradict other received wisdom in the Bible which makes me find it hard to take it anything other than ironically in the light of the Gospel.
The Teacher asks 'Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?' as Christians we can answer this question, here asked rhetorically, WE CAN! We can affirm, as this thread intends, to do the Gospel of Jesus and UR which seems so much better than is offered here.
Quote from: rosered on April 20, 2016, 08:32:46 PM
QuoteHi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.
Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.
'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.
I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.
Hi, Rose, sorry I had to delete your post again.
Yeah, I am aware that Abel comes from that word and it leads to the thought you're meant to conclude, possibly, Abel is so called because he died so soon. Murdered by an evil brother because he was evil and resented that his brother was good. OK, that's a fundamentalist interpretation I know there are numerous interpretations to this story.
I'm not sure if it says in the Bible that Cain and Abel made their offerings on the Sabbath I need to check where it gives that detail. I think your interpretation of why Cain's offering was not accepted is a popular one if you know the other one more.
But it's easy to read about the 'old man' pr other terms Paul uses to describe the sinful self and think we know what he meant. But it's a deep psychological thinking on some words on a page of a letter sent to a church. How do we know whether any of the recipients understood it as he wrote it. Isn't the implication in the letter that Paul has decided who his own 'old man' is and put it is a box in his head so he can so confidently say he's overcoming it. Well, if he's defining it of course he can say that. I'm not saying he's wrong I think he's probably right but just because it's true to him that does mean it's true to everyone in the same way.
I don't think you can call Abel's blood calling out from the ground spiritually immaturity because literally it isn't. It's a metaphor for justice and God is using is as such. Abel's blood is inert it doesn't actually call for anything.
Thank you for the acknowledgement of support, I fear that I don't really get the time to deal with all these messages as much as I should but I like that you try to communicate with me to and hope you stick around. And I'll try to do the same and keep up with what happening on all the boards, which is hard, as my time is short.
QuoteQuote
Hi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.
Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.
'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.
I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.
Hi, Rose, sorry I had to delete your post again.
Yeah, I am aware that Abel comes from that word and it leads to the thought you're meant to conclude, possibly, Abel is so called because he died so soon. Murdered by an evil brother because he was evil and resented that his brother was good. OK, that's a fundamentalist interpretation I know there are numerous interpretations to this story.
I'm not sure if it says in the Bible that Cain and Abel made their offerings on the Sabbath I need to check where it gives that detail. I think your interpretation of why Cain's offering was not accepted is a popular one if you know the other one more.
But it's easy to read about the 'old man' pr other terms Paul uses to describe the sinful self and think we know what he meant. But it's a deep psychological thinking on some words on a page of a letter sent to a church. How do we know whether any of the recipients understood it as he wrote it. Isn't the implication in the letter that Paul has decided who his own 'old man' is and put it is a box in his head so he can so confidently say he's overcoming it. Well, if he's defining it of course he can say that. I'm not saying he's wrong I think he's probably right but just because it's true to him that does mean it's true to everyone in the same way.
I don't think you can call Abel's blood calling out from the ground spiritually immaturity because literally it isn't. It's a metaphor for justice and God is using is as such. Abel's blood is inert it doesn't actually call for anything.
Thank you for the acknowledgement of support, I fear that I don't really get the time to deal with all these messages as much as I should but I like that you try to communicate with me to and hope you stick around. And I'll try to do the same and keep up with what happening on all the boards, which is hard, as my time is short.
It is fine Chris ,
So sorry for these long posts ! :sigh:
I am learning what TRUTH is same as you ... as well all are trying in the same manner , thanks for bearing and trying :HeartThrob:.
Thanks for you thoughts on Abel .
His works were righteous as the scriptures say it is true .
I was just going by the thoughts of those seeking restitution for being wronged , most go by the law of sin and death as we see by the old testament scriptures the jot and tittles of the letters of the law that kills in scriptures and sabbath rest was the 7th day after all their ''work'' and than offering to the Lord , that is so subtle , so you may not want to bother , but thanks just the same .
back to why I called in the beginning as spiritual immaturity babes being the breath or spirit as short lived
they judge not unless you be judged , GOD says vengeance is His and He knows all hearts all to well .
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "
How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. I see Abel in that number of souls
under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is
Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The
LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood
cries out to me from the ground.
Keeping this much shorter and hoping to be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong we know , not on purpose though .
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
back to why I called in the beginning as spiritual immaturity babes being the breath or spirit as short lived
I agree with you here rose
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
Keeping this much shorter and hoping to be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong we know , not on purpose though .
:iagree: also I agree with you here, and what I see as the physical manifestation of this in this world is when we try to speak to those who believe in ET about UR and they refuse to listen, this is our blood, Christ's blood, Abel's blood ......all the blood of the righteous crying out
"When will they understand His true nature?" "When will they see?"
Quote from: jugghead on April 21, 2016, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
back to why I called in the beginning as spiritual immaturity babes being the breath or spirit as short lived
I agree with you here rose
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
Keeping this much shorter and hoping to be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong we know , not on purpose though .
:iagree: also I agree with you here, and what I see as the physical manifestation of this in this world is when we try to speak to those who believe in ET about UR and they refuse to listen, this is our blood, Christ's blood, Abel's blood ......all the blood of the righteous crying out "When will they understand His true nature?" "When will they see?"
Thank you for the confirmation Jugg ,
Most times we feel all alone in our struggles to express whats in our hearts ... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 10:34:04 PM
Quote from: jugghead on April 21, 2016, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
back to why I called in the beginning as spiritual immaturity babes being the breath or spirit as short lived
I agree with you here rose
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
Keeping this much shorter and hoping to be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong we know , not on purpose though .
:iagree: also I agree with you here, and what I see as the physical manifestation of this in this world is when we try to speak to those who believe in ET about UR and they refuse to listen, this is our blood, Christ's blood, Abel's blood ......all the blood of the righteous crying out "When will they understand His true nature?" "When will they see?"
Thank you for the confirmation Jugg ,
Most times we feel all alone in our struggles to express whats in our hearts ... :HeartThrob:
It is an honor for me rose ..... to know who He is in ourselves, how He has transformed us is to see Him in the hearts of others, for our words (His Word) comes from the depths of the heart
I just want to say I love you all!
Reading everyone sharing their thoughts and hearts so earnestly with one another.
This site is awesome. God is working within all of you even if you don't think so, and I gleaned much from reading this thread :HeartThrob:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 22, 2016, 01:47:04 AM
I just want to say I love you all!
Reading everyone sharing their thoughts and hearts so earnestly with one another.
This site is awesome. God is working within all of you even if you don't think so, and I gleaned much from reading this thread :HeartThrob:
I love all and the all sharing as well GodisLove :HeartThrob:
I really liked CST answer to Eaglesway but did not want to disrupt their exchange ..
Much blessing Jugg!!
Just wanted to share what I wrote in my journal this morning, fits here because this is where it began .....
April 22, 2016
Yesterday when I was on Tentmaker, Rosered had said somethings that I totally agreed with for the reason I have been shown these things also .... I sent a confirmation of agreement to Rosered and she replied with a thank you for the confirmation, which I replied as "it was an honor for me."
Afterward I started to think about the like-mindedness of this forum and that was confirmed when I read the reply of GodisLove about the love that they experience on this board.
It wasn't until this morning while I was thinking about these things again that He let me experience the heart of these two loving people. When what Rose had said was placed deeper into my own heart, He showed me something that is talked about (experienced) a lot on the forum, it was expanded and was given even more life this morning .....that being: the inadequacies of trying to explain through mere words what is known and felt within the depths of our own soul.
The words of 2knowhim (Scherryl) came back to mind, (bless her heart and I rejoice that she is now in the presence of our Lord). She explained to me, and I am sure many others, how the Lord showed her the subject of decay. She used the example of her artwork in that as long as it stayed in her mind/heart/soul, it was not subjected to the elements that could cause it to decay.
This same example is how He showed me this morning ..... with what Rose had said ..... that when what comes out of our heart is tried to be explained to another, our words become inadequate to describe that which the heart feels ..... in other words ..... How can you describe the indescribable? Our words when spoken to another are only words, but unless another has experienced exactly what you have, our words make it out to be less than it is in our own heart, but what is truly amazing is that when the other HAS experienced exactly what you have, NO WORDS ARE NECESSARY ..... How awesome is our Lord.
Thank you Lord for bringing me to this forum, to cross paths with others ..... to experience the hearts of others. Amen
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 1Pet 1:22
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. Ro 5:5
:cloud9:
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
QuoteQuote
Hi, Rose. Just in case I haven't clarified my position completely I'll post this response because I'm not sure that your understanding of the term 'vanity' in Ecclesiastes is equal to mine.
Vanity is a word saying that something is valueless, meaningless, worthless. 'Vain' in modern usage means pursuing things that oters judge to be so but in Hebrew the term here means breath or vapor and means something has little to no substance. My understanding is the word 'futile' would be more appropriate here these days.
'The Teacher' is saying that everything in the world, being tainted with death, destruction and decay, is futile. All die so ultimately nothing can come to good. I can't take this anything other than ironically because I see history in the light of the victory of Jesus while the book, which is poetry, really seemed to see death as the end, no hope to follow.
I can't take it seriously, it would be like God admitting that He'd failed and the purpose of His creation had been thwarted by Adam and what He said when He ejected him from Eden was his last word on the subject. That may have been true to people then but if can't be true to us.
Hi, Rose, sorry I had to delete your post again.
Yeah, I am aware that Abel comes from that word and it leads to the thought you're meant to conclude, possibly, Abel is so called because he died so soon. Murdered by an evil brother because he was evil and resented that his brother was good. OK, that's a fundamentalist interpretation I know there are numerous interpretations to this story.
I'm not sure if it says in the Bible that Cain and Abel made their offerings on the Sabbath I need to check where it gives that detail. I think your interpretation of why Cain's offering was not accepted is a popular one if you know the other one more.
But it's easy to read about the 'old man' pr other terms Paul uses to describe the sinful self and think we know what he meant. But it's a deep psychological thinking on some words on a page of a letter sent to a church. How do we know whether any of the recipients understood it as he wrote it. Isn't the implication in the letter that Paul has decided who his own 'old man' is and put it is a box in his head so he can so confidently say he's overcoming it. Well, if he's defining it of course he can say that. I'm not saying he's wrong I think he's probably right but just because it's true to him that does mean it's true to everyone in the same way.
I don't think you can call Abel's blood calling out from the ground spiritually immaturity because literally it isn't. It's a metaphor for justice and God is using is as such. Abel's blood is inert it doesn't actually call for anything.
Thank you for the acknowledgement of support, I fear that I don't really get the time to deal with all these messages as much as I should but I like that you try to communicate with me to and hope you stick around. And I'll try to do the same and keep up with what happening on all the boards, which is hard, as my time is short.
It is fine Chris ,
So sorry for these long posts ! :sigh:
I am learning what TRUTH is same as you ... as well all are trying in the same manner , thanks for bearing and trying :HeartThrob:.
Thanks for you thoughts on Abel .
His works were righteous as the scriptures say it is true .
I was just going by the thoughts of those seeking restitution for being wronged , most go by the law of sin and death as we see by the old testament scriptures the jot and tittles of the letters of the law that kills in scriptures and sabbath rest was the 7th day after all their "work" and than offering to the Lord , that is so subtle , so you may not want to bother , but thanks just the same .
back to why I called in the beginning as spiritual immaturity babes being the breath or spirit as short lived
they judge not unless you be judged , GOD says vengeance is His and He knows all hearts all to well .
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
Keeping this much shorter and hoping to be more clear on the reasons I spoke as I did , I just could be wrong we know , not on purpose though .
Thanks, going from what I said in my other post Abel's sacrifice was probably faultless and had the necessary value while Cain's was just cobbled together for the stuff he didn't want for himself.
Yeah, Abel might well be under the alter but again that may be somewhat symbolic I do expect to see any real horseman of the apocalypse (usually misrepresented) riding the world anytime soon, but some symbolic ones make turn up.
You don't need to apologize for anything, it's hard for me but I like reading what you have to say, struggle though I do.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 22, 2016, 01:47:04 AM
I just want to say I love you all!
Reading everyone sharing their thoughts and hearts so earnestly with one another.
This site is awesome. God is working within all of you even if you don't think so, and I gleaned much from reading this thread :HeartThrob:
Thank you, GiL. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
God bless your heart Chris!! :HeartThrob:
I agree , it is all very symbolic in meaning and Spiritual in nature for sure !! :dsunny:
I am trying not to post a multitude of words as fools are known to do . :laughing7:
:laugh: Ta, Rose, clever Rose, wise Rose.
Quote from: CST on April 23, 2016, 05:23:04 PM
:laugh: Ta, Rose, clever Rose, wise Rose.
Ya got me Chris ! :friendstu: , ha ! :LH:
...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 12:43:58 AM
...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..
Yes how the lambs blood was shed from the foundation of the world
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. those are the martyred ones in Christ that have died in Christ the for- ordained and forknew Romans 8
8And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [Abel sure did ] his breath being spirit
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified....
Quote from: rosered on April 24, 2016, 12:56:07 AM
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 12:43:58 AM
...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..
Yes how the lambs blood was shed from the foundation of the world
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. those are the martyred ones in Christ that have died in Christ the for- ordained and forknew Romans 8
8And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [Abel sure did ] his breath being spirit
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified....
Predestined = chosen in Him before the foundation of the world :dsunny:
What an honor ..... to be chosen in Him before we ever existed in the physical; before we became flesh :banana:
...A lucky roll of the dice! :smile: It's why I think for the every day person on day of judgement (and anything following) it won't be any more stringent or painful than it was for any of us.. the same waking up to the fact of Jesus.. the same repentance and changing of the mind.. the knee bends, the tongue confesses, He is Lord! And even as far as the despots, etc are concerned.. perhaps that's one reason why there's a thousand years between apocalypse (the unveiling of true from untrue when the untrue crashes and burns on planet earth) and judgment day.. (to let some of the hellfire folk settle down? :dontknow: just kidding! :laughing7: )
I'm pretty impressed with the Word about the fifth seal..
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
..look how the answer to the verse is in the verse.. Looking at it from the aspect of an unbeliever (had this discussion once).. It seems logical that the martyrs crying out (for centuries and ages) are not literally locked under the altar crying, feeling despair, etc.. (for centuries and ages). And of course, the best logic includes the Word! In the description of the seal (martyrdom) - and it's not like Revelation talks in straight forward language, being a mixture of metaphor, symbol, etc, etc... But in the description is "the resting", in Jesus, the Sabbath, because Old Testament saints had a contract w/ Yahweh our Father through the temple sacrifices, shadow of things to come..
:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" ..something about that... :idea2: the Holy Days are called Sabbath.. Day Of Atonement, which i believe is a shadow of Judgment Day.. He is Lord of it.. "the Father has given to Him all things.."
Thanks Rose! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:
The Word (sWord) of God is just bursting (!) with Universal Redemption/Reconciliation (Repentance; the 3R's :laughing7: ). Some of it is real obvious! And some not as obvious.. "King of Kings, Lord of Lords".. .."He is Lord"..
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 03:59:37 PM
...A lucky roll of the dice! :smile: It's why I think for the every day person on day of judgement (and anything following) it won't be any more stringent or painful than it was for any of us.. the same waking up to the fact of Jesus.. the same repentance and changing of the mind.. the knee bends, the tongue confesses, He is Lord! And even as far as the despots, etc are concerned.. perhaps that's one reason why there's a thousand years between apocalypse (the unveiling of true from untrue when the untrue crashes and burns on planet earth) and judgment day.. (to let some of the hellfire folk settle down? :dontknow: just kidding! :laughing7: )
I'm pretty impressed with the Word about the fifth seal..
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
..look how the answer to the verse is in the verse.. Looking at it from the aspect of an unbeliever (had this discussion once).. It seems logical that the martyrs crying out (for centuries and ages) are not literally locked under the altar crying, feeling despair, etc.. (for centuries and ages). And of course, the best logic includes the Word! In the description of the seal (martyrdom) - and it's not like Revelation talks in straight forward language, being a mixture of metaphor, symbol, etc, etc... But in the description is "the resting", in Jesus, the Sabbath, because Old Testament saints had a contract w/ Yahweh our Father through the temple sacrifices, shadow of things to come..
:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" ..something about that... :idea2: the Holy Days are called Sabbath.. Day Of Atonement, which i believe is a shadow of Judgment Day.. He is Lord of it.. "the Father has given to Him all things.."
Thanks Rose! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:
The Word (sWord) of God is just bursting (!) with Universal Redemption/Reconciliation (Repentance; the 3R's :laughing7: ). Some of it is real obvious! And some not as obvious.. "King of Kings, Lord of Lords".. .."He is Lord"..
There is truth in those things amen sis Marie!!!! :HeartThrob:
The Lord of Sabbath'' rest '' is also the Lord of heavens armies taking out all those things that offend first , so the rest will come I do see this as a DAY /1000 year reign coming for his people after a great war or tribulation period of sin becoming utterly sinful and exposed in all the flesh of men [openly shamed ] as Babylon must fall and satan must be bound , these are what the works of Fire of Gods purification process is for , for me it is more of an individual thing and not so much as a great show down upon all , My reasoning is this and makes perfect sense to me , but many must also look within to see if it is truth to them ,
I believe we are as Adam who sleeps in the dust and must be awaked up inside as we journey into the days of Noah etc as we are all Israel , because we come up out of the world and were bound under the law first and trying to save ourselves and died trying and by faith believing in Jesus Christ come to understand the grace of God , the salt of the earth ,You are the light of the world.You are a City set on a HILL that cannot be hid , so let you Light shine forth the same written Word becomes a living Word by progression and knowledge of God as Babylon must fall and satan must be bound till this loosing for a
short season as the same LORD JESUS CHRIST BEING THE REST LORD OF SABBOTH armies and Jesus will make a
short work in the earth in righteousness because satan has already been cast out of heaven our minds and hearts , Paul desribing the sin in his members [ earth ] in Romans 7 and 8 delivering him completly out of the body of death into everlasting life in CHRIST ! We war not with flesh and blood , but powers and principalities in high places [ you are a city set on a hill[ruler ] the holy Jerusalem surrounded by enemies , the hedge the Lord has kept you in .
I just see this as very much a personal thing between our Lord and His great victory over all flesh , some are the exact examples of the days of old for all to see in the end ..
The Parable of the Weeds
(Ezekiel 17:1-10)Ezekiel 16:63
Then,
when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"Ezekiel 17:2
"Son of man,
set forth an allegory and tell it to
the Israelites as a parable.Matt
24He put before them another parable, saying, "The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man having sown good seed in his field.
25
And while the men are sleeping,
his enemy came and sowed weeds in the midst of the wheat, and
went away. Babylon is of the tares and Jesus denounces them openly in scriptures as children of the devil /adversary JOHN 8 my Word has no place in you [ chocking out the WORD OF GOD by the tares and cares of this life Matt 13 and the 3 types of the seed sown in our hearts ...
26And when the plants sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared.
27And the servants, having approached the master of the house, said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field?
How then does it have weeds?'28And he said to them
, 'An enemy did this.'And the servants said to him, 'Then do you desire that having gone forth, we should gather them?'
29And he said, 'No, lest gathering the weeds, you would uproot the wheat with them.
30
Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the harvesters,
"First gather the weeds, and
bind them into bundles in order to burn them; then gather together the wheat into my barn."'" the wheat are ripe for harvest even than the gathering in the heavens was already in place !!!!!!
john 4 34Jesus said to them,
"My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work. 35"Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest '? Behold, I say to you,
lift up your eyes and look on the fields,
that they are white for harvest. 36
"Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal;
so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together....
I find this an absolutely beautiful TRUTH !! OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD, HE MADE ALL THINGS FOR HIS GLORY !!!!
Quote from: rosered on April 23, 2016, 07:15:56 PM
Quote from: CST on April 23, 2016, 05:23:04 PM
:laugh: Ta, Rose, clever Rose, wise Rose.
Ya got me Chris ! :friendstu: , ha ! :LH:
Cheers, :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 12:43:58 AM
...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..
Still not seeing it myself but let's be honest maybe we're not entirely meant to. Notice how Genesis does not go into specifics about what happened when Cain took Abel into his field, it just tells us the result.
That said the seven seals themselves are all very strange I know that my tenuous understanding of some of them is not in agreement with the understanding on other parties. But this isn't the Revelation board.
Turns out I may have closer on Cain's motive than I thought though.
'and not be like Cain who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.' (1 John 3:12)
Quote from: rosered on April 24, 2016, 12:56:07 AM
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 12:43:58 AM
...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..
Yes how the lambs blood was shed from the foundation of the world
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. those are the martyred ones in Christ that have died in Christ the for- ordained and forknew Romans 8
8And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [Abel sure did ] his breath being spirit
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified....
I really hate that part of the Bible it makes ETers sound right and at the same time wrong. Basically it, and other parts of the New Testament that suggest if you're not prepared to go off and proclaim your faith so strongly as to eventually provoke someone to murder you you'll go to Hell. If you succeed the person who murdered you will go to Hell. Doesn't sound terribly decent somehow.
Quote from: jugghead on April 24, 2016, 02:31:29 AM
Quote from: rosered on April 24, 2016, 12:56:07 AM
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 12:43:58 AM
...that's interesting... Seal five the martyrs under the altar.. Resting in the Lord our sabbath! And in this thread also Abel.. I've always felt the fifth seal is like the blood of Abel which cried out to God our Father from the earth... I never really put it together how Abel was the first martyr..
Yes how the lambs blood was shed from the foundation of the world
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. those are the martyred ones in Christ that have died in Christ the for- ordained and forknew Romans 8
8And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. [Abel sure did ] his breath being spirit
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified....
Predestined = chosen in Him before the foundation of the world :dsunny:
What an honor ..... to be chosen in Him before we ever existed in the physical; before we became flesh :banana:
Obviously we existed in Him, in His thoughts or imagination or whatever you would call it when you're talking about the creativity of God. Shame about those He didn't choose. I'm not sure I like the idea of this honour only ETers really seem to have no trouble with the implications in my experience.
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 03:59:37 PM
...A lucky roll of the dice! :smile: It's why I think for the every day person on day of judgement (and anything following) it won't be any more stringent or painful than it was for any of us.. the same waking up to the fact of Jesus.. the same repentance and changing of the mind.. the knee bends, the tongue confesses, He is Lord! And even as far as the despots, etc are concerned.. perhaps that's one reason why there's a thousand years between apocalypse (the unveiling of true from untrue when the untrue crashes and burns on planet earth) and judgment day.. (to let some of the hellfire folk settle down? :dontknow: just kidding! :laughing7: )
I'm pretty impressed with the Word about the fifth seal..
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
..look how the answer to the verse is in the verse.. Looking at it from the aspect of an unbeliever (had this discussion once).. It seems logical that the martyrs crying out (for centuries and ages) are not literally locked under the altar crying, feeling despair, etc.. (for centuries and ages). And of course, the best logic includes the Word! In the description of the seal (martyrdom) - and it's not like Revelation talks in straight forward language, being a mixture of metaphor, symbol, etc, etc... But in the description is "the resting", in Jesus, the Sabbath, because Old Testament saints had a contract w/ Yahweh our Father through the temple sacrifices, shadow of things to come..
:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" ..something about that... :idea2: the Holy Days are called Sabbath.. Day Of Atonement, which i believe is a shadow of Judgment Day.. He is Lord of it.. "the Father has given to Him all things.."
Thanks Rose! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:
The Word (sWord) of God is just bursting (!) with Universal Redemption/Reconciliation (Repentance; the 3R's :laughing7: ). Some of it is real obvious! And some not as obvious.. "King of Kings, Lord of Lords".. .."He is Lord"..
Lucky is especially relative when your dealing with decisions of God which were made for His wise reasons and not at all arbitrarily. He needed Moses, He made Moses although the exact mechanics of how He preordained history to know He would need a Moses I doubt our heads will ever be able to comprehend.
I'd like to believe that the heathen coming to the truth won't be any more painful than it was for any of us but that immediately invites the objection 'well, how painful's that then?' I hate my life (so called) in many ways and I don't like to compare lots but I can't help thinking my life is pretty cushy compared with many unfortunate people in parts of the world where the name of Jesus is hardly ever spoken. How id there coming to Jesus meant to be no more painful than it was for us when there lives are already more painful than ours and it's often our fault?
That part of Revelation is very uncomfortable, remember John was writing the letter to Christians who were being persecuted and murdered by the Romans for their faith which they proclaimed it was for their benefit he wrote that bit, which isn't to say the symbol is devoid of truth but the point was to reassure them because they must have know people who'd gone that way and could likely expect to themselves. It was meant to encourage them to continue when they might otherwise be scared off but it reflects, it seems, the desire for vengeance they must have felt and the partiality in that is very uncomfortable.
Quote from: rosered on April 24, 2016, 06:29:42 PM
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 03:59:37 PM
...A lucky roll of the dice! :smile: It's why I think for the every day person on day of judgement (and anything following) it won't be any more stringent or painful than it was for any of us.. the same waking up to the fact of Jesus.. the same repentance and changing of the mind.. the knee bends, the tongue confesses, He is Lord! And even as far as the despots, etc are concerned.. perhaps that's one reason why there's a thousand years between apocalypse (the unveiling of true from untrue when the untrue crashes and burns on planet earth) and judgment day.. (to let some of the hellfire folk settle down? :dontknow: just kidding! :laughing7: )
I'm pretty impressed with the Word about the fifth seal..
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
The Fifth Seal: Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
I see Abel in that number of souls under the altar and resting , same SABBATH DAY as being in the Lord JESUS CHRIST , and that sounds nuts but that is the conclusion , HE is the Lord of Sabbath Matt 12 7"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Genesis 4:10
The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
..look how the answer to the verse is in the verse.. Looking at it from the aspect of an unbeliever (had this discussion once).. It seems logical that the martyrs crying out (for centuries and ages) are not literally locked under the altar crying, feeling despair, etc.. (for centuries and ages). And of course, the best logic includes the Word! In the description of the seal (martyrdom) - and it's not like Revelation talks in straight forward language, being a mixture of metaphor, symbol, etc, etc... But in the description is "the resting", in Jesus, the Sabbath, because Old Testament saints had a contract w/ Yahweh our Father through the temple sacrifices, shadow of things to come..
:Chinscratch: :Chinscratch: Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" ..something about that... :idea2: the Holy Days are called Sabbath.. Day Of Atonement, which i believe is a shadow of Judgment Day.. He is Lord of it.. "the Father has given to Him all things.."
Thanks Rose! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :gsmile:
The Word (sWord) of God is just bursting (!) with Universal Redemption/Reconciliation (Repentance; the 3R's :laughing7: ). Some of it is real obvious! And some not as obvious.. "King of Kings, Lord of Lords".. .."He is Lord"..
There is truth in those things amen sis Marie!!!! :HeartThrob:
The Lord of Sabbath" rest " is also the Lord of heavens armies taking out all those things that offend first , so the rest will come I do see this as a DAY /1000 year reign coming for his people after a great war or tribulation period of sin becoming utterly sinful and exposed in all the flesh of men [openly shamed ] as Babylon must fall and satan must be bound , these are what the works of Fire of Gods purification process is for , for me it is more of an individual thing and not so much as a great show down upon all , My reasoning is this and makes perfect sense to me , but many must also look within to see if it is truth to them ,
I believe we are as Adam who sleeps in the dust and must be awaked up inside as we journey into the days of Noah etc as we are all Israel , because we come up out of the world and were bound under the law first and trying to save ourselves and died trying and by faith believing in Jesus Christ come to understand the grace of God , the salt of the earth ,You are the light of the world.You are a City set on a HILL that cannot be hid , so let you Light shine forth the same written Word becomes a living Word by progression and knowledge of God as Babylon must fall and satan must be bound till this loosing for a short season as the same LORD JESUS CHRIST BEING THE REST LORD OF SABBOTH armies and Jesus will make a short work in the earth in righteousness because satan has already been cast out of heaven our minds and hearts , Paul desribing the sin in his members [ earth ] in Romans 7 and 8 delivering him completly out of the body of death into everlasting life in CHRIST ! We war not with flesh and blood , but powers and principalities in high places [ you are a city set on a hill[ruler ] the holy Jerusalem surrounded by enemies , the hedge the Lord has kept you in .
I just see this as very much a personal thing between our Lord and His great victory over all flesh , some are the exact examples of the days of old for all to see in the end ..
The Parable of the Weeds
(Ezekiel 17:1-10)Ezekiel 16:63
Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
Ezekiel 17:2
"Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell it to the Israelites as a parable.
Matt
24He put before them another parable, saying, "The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man having sown good seed in his field.
25And while the men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds in the midst of the wheat, and went away. Babylon is of the tares and Jesus denounces them openly in scriptures as children of the devil /adversary JOHN 8 my Word has no place in you [ chocking out the WORD OF GOD by the tares and cares of this life Matt 13 and the 3 types of the seed sown in our hearts ...
26And when the plants sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared.
27And the servants, having approached the master of the house, said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?'
28And he said to them, 'An enemy did this.'
And the servants said to him, 'Then do you desire that having gone forth, we should gather them?'
29And he said, 'No, lest gathering the weeds, you would uproot the wheat with them.
30Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the harvesters,
"First gather the weeds, and bind them into bundles in order to burn them
; then gather together the wheat into my barn."'" the wheat are ripe for harvest even than the gathering in the heavens was already in place !!!!!!
john 4 34Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
35"Do you not say, 'There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest '? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest.
36"Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together....
I find this an absolutely beautiful TRUTH !! OUR GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD, HE MADE ALL THINGS FOR HIS GLORY !!!!
I'm not sure I can see things as you do here, not sure I can see what you're saying but then I suspect if I can't it doesn't matter. Though I really don't think I see that parable like that.
QuoteI really hate that part of the Bible it makes ETers sound right and at the same time wrong. Basically it, and other parts of the New Testament that suggest if you're not prepared to go off and proclaim your faith so strongly as to eventually provoke someone to murder you you'll go to Hell. If you succeed the person who murdered you will go to Hell. Doesn't sound terribly decent somehow.
Well I can see this as a righteous judgement in the earth our mortal bodies , those whom live by the Sword die by the same Sword , Word of the Spirit of truth
It exposes our own hypocrisy , allowing some to sin and not letting others get by with it , or by our own hidden sins we ''THINK '' we are better off than others ..
I believe God is fair in letting all of us , every last one carry sin within our flesh as a reminder that humility is ours ,
when you forget and let the pride rare up its ugly head you have a real monster on your hands
I believe the mistake most take is not taking the Bible personally , but keeping you outside looking in , and its a dark mirror of our very own reflection bound up under the law of sin and death .
until you know what kind of man you are and desiring to be , we will always continue to look outside the TRUTH
THE TRUTH IS within us dividing us and desiring to come out , some call it evil and some say good , we are a mixed bag that is for sure ...
It is impossible to judge a man by outward appearances and manifestations of good and evil doing without looking into our own hearts and seeing are the things we hate in them the very same things we do not love about ourselves ?
To me the blame game has always been the secret sin of every mans heart from the beginning ..
and until we are honest with ourselves we can never be honest in judging anything right .
just my thoughts
there are scriptures , many of them , but they make these posts so long and sometimes more confusing than just being forthright .
Which I hope I am being with you Chris . I am running out of time , not patience , just time my dear .
I think you misunderstood me CST, when you said "shame about those He didn't choose"
my statement was in the context of all of mankind .....
mankind, all of mankind was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, some just come to the knowledge of this truth before others
God does not choose one "over" another ...... But He does choose one "before " others - which is Christ
When it comes to mankind:
God does not choose some "over" others ..... But He does choose some "before" others
And if I misunderstood you by what you stated, forgive me
Quote from: rosered on April 25, 2016, 08:45:18 PM
QuoteI really hate that part of the Bible it makes ETers sound right and at the same time wrong. Basically it, and other parts of the New Testament that suggest if you're not prepared to go off and proclaim your faith so strongly as to eventually provoke someone to murder you you'll go to Hell. If you succeed the person who murdered you will go to Hell. Doesn't sound terribly decent somehow.
Well I can see this as a righteous judgement in the earth our mortal bodies , those whom live by the Sword die by the same Sword , Word of the Spirit of truth
It exposes our own hypocrisy , allowing some to sin and not letting others get by with it , or by our own hidden sins we "THINK " we are better off than others ..
I believe God is fair in letting all of us , every last one carry sin within our flesh as a reminder that humility is ours ,
when you forget and let the pride rare up its ugly head you have a real monster on your hands
I believe the mistake most take is not taking the Bible personally , but keeping you outside looking in , and its a dark mirror of our very own reflection bound up under the law of sin and death .
until you know what kind of man you are and desiring to be , we will always continue to look outside the TRUTH
THE TRUTH IS within us dividing us and desiring to come out , some call it evil and some say good , we are a mixed bag that is for sure ...
It is impossible to judge a man by outward appearances and manifestations of good and evil doing without looking into our own hearts and seeing are the things we hate in them the very same things we do not love about ourselves ?
To me the blame game has always been the secret sin of every mans heart from the beginning ..
and until we are honest with ourselves we can never be honest in judging anything right .
just my thoughts
there are scriptures , many of them , but they make these posts so long and sometimes more confusing than just being forthright .
Which I hope I am being with you Chris . I am running out of time , not patience , just time my dear .
Don't worry I often lose time to especially in conversations like this. Here I this we may have been talking crossed purposes even though there may be much truth and wisdom in your reply. Most people are not martyrs. I don't see myself as a martyr or even being one, if only martyrs are saved no one living, who does know their future can know or claim they're saved. Yet there's a suggestion in some quarters it's required for salvation. Which would make UR difficult.
Quote from: jugghead on April 26, 2016, 02:30:41 AM
I think you misunderstood me CST, when you said "shame about those He didn't choose"
my statement was in the context of all of mankind .....
mankind, all of mankind was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, some just come to the knowledge of this truth before others
God does not choose one "over" another ...... But He does choose one "before " others - which is Christ
When it comes to mankind:
God does not choose some "over" others ..... But He does choose some "before" others
And if I misunderstood you by what you stated, forgive me
No, this is right but the difference is as much as I'd like to imagine, and can devise ideas of how at the judgement God just wraps everyone in a blanket invites them to HIs party in His kingdom which we'll all have more fun doing all the things we enjoy better than we've ever enjoyed doing them and He won't take 'no' for an answer this time, I just don't believe it as much as I'd like to.
That difference between the now and next in terms of journey is massive. Some people will go to Hell, probably some who I know and care for, maybe even me, have a pretty unpleasant time then come out and we may not even recognize them. I still hold there's only so much a person can change before you can't really call them the same person anymore. This is what sets me off.
I accept they will be saved but not until they've experiences things I suspect we'd all balk at experiencing.
Quote
Don't worry I often lose time to especially in conversations like this. Here I this we may have been talking crossed purposes even though there may be much truth and wisdom in your reply. Most people are not martyrs. I don't see myself as a martyr or even being one, if only martyrs are saved no one living, who does know their future can know or claim they're saved. Yet there's a suggestion in some quarters it's required for salvation. Which would make UR difficult.
Hi Chris ,
I have enjoyed your company and find you are not so different in sharing your thoughts as much as I have been asking the same questions and seeking some kind of settling within me over the course of many years of the Lord dealing with us all .
I do believe though , until you see the symbolism between the two worlds [heavenly Spiritual realm and the earthly carnal realm ], the struggle remains within , in inner conflict trying to reconcile between the two and exercising the authority which is in Christ to overcome one for the other . .
as we grow in the Truth and grace by the Fathers increase
We see the symbolism in casting out the bondwoman and her son ? Gal 4 this carnal /beast mind /man shall not be heir with the son of promise Issac , so the Spiritual man will rule over the carnal man / mind in you ... your strength comes from the Christ in you , as the carnal man submits or leaves us all together ...
The son Ismael in allegory [is a wild man , a donkey , who is ''a hand/ power is against his brothers , being carnal and beastly in nature torments the spiritual , this can be seen as not just within you but against any spiritual born brother ..
Gen 16 This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives."
For me , as far as martyrs goes , it is when the spirit in you is slain by our own carnal nature , but our hope is in Christ whom will rise again in a new Day is dawning in our hearts
Life and death are ours, we experience both often I believe , the power of life and death are in the tongue proverbs 18
Death and life are in the
power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.
fruits of Life and the fruits of corruption /death , in which man is control , carnal man or spiritual man in Christ , from ruling the heart
The symbolism of what manner of man is in control , out f the heart the mouth speaks http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2588&t=KJV (http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2588&t=KJV)
The pure in heart shall see God
very well said Rose :dsunny:
Quote from: jugghead on April 27, 2016, 02:52:37 AM
very well said Rose :dsunny:
God bless you Jugg ,
I have really enjoyed everyone posts !!!! lots to glean from and mostly Love to all :HeartThrob:
I am so glad you are here brother :icon_flower:
Quote from: rosered on April 27, 2016, 01:40:37 AM
Quote
Don't worry I often lose time to especially in conversations like this. Here I this we may have been talking crossed purposes even though there may be much truth and wisdom in your reply. Most people are not martyrs. I don't see myself as a martyr or even being one, if only martyrs are saved no one living, who does know their future can know or claim they're saved. Yet there's a suggestion in some quarters it's required for salvation. Which would make UR difficult.
Hi Chris ,
I have enjoyed your company and find you are not so different in sharing your thoughts as much as I have been asking the same questions and seeking some kind of settling within me over the course of many years of the Lord dealing with us all .
I do believe though , until you see the symbolism between the two worlds [heavenly Spiritual realm and the earthly carnal realm ], the struggle remains within , in inner conflict trying to reconcile between the two and exercising the authority which is in Christ to overcome one for the other . .
as we grow in the Truth and grace by the Fathers increase
We see the symbolism in casting out the bondwoman and her son ? Gal 4 this carnal /beast mind /man shall not be heir with the son of promise Issac , so the Spiritual man will rule over the carnal man / mind in you ... your strength comes from the Christ in you , as the carnal man submits or leaves us all together ...
The son Ismael in allegory [is a wild man , a donkey , who is "a hand/ power is against his brothers , being carnal and beastly in nature torments the spiritual , this can be seen as not just within you but against any spiritual born brother ..
Gen 16 This son of yours will be a wild man, as untamed as a wild donkey! He will raise his fist against everyone, and everyone will be against him. Yes, he will live in open hostility against all his relatives."
For me , as far as martyrs goes , it is when the spirit in you is slain by our own carnal nature , but our hope is in Christ whom will rise again in a new Day is dawning in our hearts
Life and death are ours, we experience both often I believe , the power of life and death are in the tongue proverbs 18
Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.
fruits of Life and the fruits of corruption /death , in which man is control , carnal man or spiritual man in Christ , from ruling the heart
The symbolism of what manner of man is in control , out f the heart the mouth speaks http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2588&t=KJV (http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2588&t=KJV)
The pure in heart shall see God
I'm not quite sure how this pertains. I am sure of the following things, I am commanded that I love other people sometimes not easy sometimes, perhaps, unjustly easy, but I frequently discover that in the situations where I do love other parties I will balk, often very painfully, at the suffering wrought on them however much justice it is supposed to be. That's the level on my compassion. And I'm less loving than God I have no idea how He can bare it.
At least it helps to ever so slightly at least to understand why He'd be prepared to suffer so much our lives and presumably to rescue us from it. But then I end up with the same sort of problem as I have with ET.
I keep feeling that ET and ED have held sway over the minds of Christians for so many centuries that getting out of that mindset when your trying to be a UR convert is really hard.
I too often encounter this mindset, not necessarily round here, that seems to say Hell's not pleasant but as long as it's not forever that solves all the theological problems therein and I'm really not sure it does.
Quote from: CST on April 27, 2016, 07:57:04 PM
I'm not quite sure how this pertains. I am sure of the following things, I am commanded that I love other people sometimes not easy sometimes, perhaps, unjustly easy, but I frequently discover that in the situations where I do love other parties I will balk, often very painfully, at the suffering wrought on them however much justice it is supposed to be. That's the level on my compassion. And I'm less loving than God I have no idea how He can bare it.
At least it helps to ever so slightly at least to understand why He'd be prepared to suffer so much our lives and presumably to rescue us from it. But then I end up with the same sort of problem as I have with ET.
I keep feeling that ET and ED have held sway over the minds of Christians for so many centuries that getting out of that mindset when your trying to be a UR convert is really hard.
I too often encounter this mindset, not necessarily round here, that seems to say Hell's not pleasant but as long as it's not forever that solves all the theological problems therein and I'm really not sure it does.
Wow, CST, I did't know any one else thought or felt that way! To me any truth it seems should jive with the truth that God is 100% good and is love. At the same time I understand "justice" and to me, what's been a good and sizable puzzle piece to everything.. from my relationship with Him to what is it He's working out in the world, or via the world(?). And that's the idea that our 'punishment' is for one to suffer the consequences of one's own choices and actions. Plus we see the world as a mixture and interaction of everyone's choices.. It's like, man, please, Yahweh has GOT to rule!!
Daniel 4:17 - "to the intent that the living may know that the most High rules.."
I know there's all that flowery language about smiting nations, or whatnot.. but I guess that's what I think it is, flowery language. And also we can't forget that Yahweh is communicating through His Word to all, including the basest, most low down and mean criminal, and outright despots, oppressors and abusers of whole nations..
And as far as life post resurrection for those folks not yet saved, who rise in the 2nd resurrection.. I'm thinking for most it will be welcome to realize there is resurrection!! And a lot of common, everyday people, and many 'not so common' I don't think, will find it any harder to repent than any one of us did.. I simply think of judgment 'day' as another age, one wherein the not yet saved will repent, be forgiven and reconciled.. Maybe there might even be one or two totally hard cases.. but actually, i think the 'day' will be long enough that all will repent.. before close of that 'day' (age) when it will be that "all those not believing (written in the book of-life) will go to the lake of fire" likely "ageduring" as the YLT says it ...("aionian") but it doesn't actually say that in that verse.. (No reference to time or duration.) And those 2 in revelation 19, I believe are institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return :smile: To me, that's how a whole picture seems to fit together and answer all questions (for me anyway!) :gsmile: I believe He has done each and every thing just the way He has in order to bring about the very best of all possible outcomes and 'end' result.
:Peace2: just my :2c:
P.S. - I figure this whole 'mess' of life as we presently know it -
fallen nature - is unavoidable if we're to be rational creatures. Thinking ability includes choice.. but God is both Life and Perfection.. so to be imperfect is the opposite of life. We need to learn, know and fully understand that.
All need to fully comprehend this.. and that's what this whole learning experience is all about.
And you know what else i was thinking about.. Since Yahweh is Life itself (surely?!) then He suffers, lives through, and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur. That's a lot. Human history. wow. :mshock: :crywipe:
Affirmation:
If stories dreamed up and written by man, have a happy ending, how much MORE so, the story of God Almighty? Aka, what it is He is doing.
:Peace2: God bless!
Quote from: marie glen on May 07, 2016, 08:27:34 PM
Affirmation:
If stories dreamed up and written by man, have a happy ending, how much MORE so, the story of God Almighty? Aka, what it is He is doing.
:Peace2: God bless!
:thumbsup:
God's story has a very happy ending.
But like the birth of a child, it comes through travail and blood and water with a fair amount of screaming by all parties except the Deliverer. :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: marie glen on May 07, 2016, 08:25:09 PM
Quote from: CST on April 27, 2016, 07:57:04 PM
I'm not quite sure how this pertains. I am sure of the following things, I am commanded that I love other people sometimes not easy sometimes, perhaps, unjustly easy, but I frequently discover that in the situations where I do love other parties I will balk, often very painfully, at the suffering wrought on them however much justice it is supposed to be. That's the level on my compassion. And I'm less loving than God I have no idea how He can bare it.
At least it helps to ever so slightly at least to understand why He'd be prepared to suffer so much our lives and presumably to rescue us from it. But then I end up with the same sort of problem as I have with ET.
I keep feeling that ET and ED have held sway over the minds of Christians for so many centuries that getting out of that mindset when your trying to be a UR convert is really hard.
I too often encounter this mindset, not necessarily round here, that seems to say Hell's not pleasant but as long as it's not forever that solves all the theological problems therein and I'm really not sure it does.
Wow, CST, I did't know any one else thought or felt that way! To me any truth it seems should jive with the truth that God is 100% good and is love. At the same time I understand "justice" and to me, what's been a good and sizable puzzle piece to everything.. from my relationship with Him to what is it He's working out in the world, or via the world(?). And that's the idea that our 'punishment' is for one to suffer the consequences of one's own choices and actions. Plus we see the world as a mixture and interaction of everyone's choices.. It's like, man, please, Yahweh has GOT to rule!!
Daniel 4:17 - "to the intent that the living may know that the most High rules.."
I know there's all that flowery language about smiting nations, or whatnot.. but I guess that's what I think it is, flowery language. And also we can't forget that Yahweh is communicating through His Word to all, including the basest, most low down and mean criminal, and outright despots, oppressors and abusers of whole nations..
And as far as life post resurrection for those folks not yet saved, who rise in the 2nd resurrection.. I'm thinking for most it will be welcome to realize there is resurrection!! And a lot of common, everyday people, and many 'not so common' I don't think, will find it any harder to repent than any one of us did.. I simply think of judgment 'day' as another age, one wherein the not yet saved will repent, be forgiven and reconciled.. Maybe there might even be one or two totally hard cases.. but actually, i think the 'day' will be long enough that all will repent.. before close of that 'day' (age) when it will be that "all those not believing (written in the book of-life) will go to the lake of fire" likely "ageduring" as the YLT says it ...("aionian") but it doesn't actually say that in that verse.. (No reference to time or duration.) And those 2 in revelation 19, I believe are institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return :smile: To me, that's how a whole picture seems to fit together and answer all questions (for me anyway!) :gsmile: I believe He has done each and every thing just the way He has in order to bring about the very best of all possible outcomes and 'end' result.
:Peace2: just my :2c:
P.S. - I figure this whole 'mess' of life as we presently know it - fallen nature - is unavoidable if we're to be rational creatures. Thinking ability includes choice.. but God is both Life and Perfection.. so to be imperfect is the opposite of life. We need to learn, know and fully understand that. All need to fully comprehend this.. and that's what this whole learning experience is all about.
And you know what else i was thinking about.. Since Yahweh is Life itself (surely?!) then He suffers, lives through, and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur. That's a lot. Human history. wow. :mshock: :crywipe:
<Sigh> I don't think I feel it all the time but then I'm not God and as I mentioned God will certainly feel it more palpably than I do. Then again I'm not surer God thinks about it all the time either. I can't even imagine how the 'unchanging' God thinks which actually means He does think of it all the time because He thinks of everything all the time which would mean that God is still thinking about our pain and suffering even when it's all over and we're all saved. That can't be true it, sounds awful even if He's also thinking of our happines which we're also enjoying.
I'm not sure that it's true that you understand 'justice' I'm not sure anyone does. We have our own concepts of what justice is but they're not the same. ET advocates clearly believe in a concept of justice that makes them think that injury without end to people who opposed God's purposes in their life time is what God is compelled to do to meet the demands of His justice, however 'unloving' it may be.
Of course some of us are wrong and deluding ourselves, the Bible teaches the we are all supposed to know what justice is and so whoever's wrong should know they're wrong. Obviously I hold that evidence from the Bible shows that ET and people and wrong.
But is it possible that we because we have to have an active role in the execution of justice - the Bible shows this - than our perceptions are not entirely without impact and an actually inner demand to see justice done in some way means God can't just appear and say, 'you're all forgiven' to everyone, when a vast swath of people He's forgiven are like the Unforgiving Debtor and won't accept that. God can forgive who He likes but if He want's us to be participants in justice it might be a little harder to ignore the demands we feel should be met. Just a thought I have sometimes.
Yeah, I think we do see the world like that, though I'm not one hundred percent sure I've understood all that sentence. Although my response to the conclusion is to reject the concept of free will and replace it with the concept of independent will which is different.
But we can't really talk about that here, we're not free to do so but I wouldn't want to much in this thread but it's a different topic.
I'm not sure and use the word 'flowery' to describe God's rather violent vengeance that's the essence of irony. I can see the sentiment however.
I don't really want to discuss the Revelation in this section seeing that it has a whole board to its self which I hope I'll reach eventually but I do share your understandings of the text in many regards though I struggle to accept the sentiments much as i like them because I don't feel they are quite in the spirit of the text even though the text its self doesn't contradict the. To me repentance may be 'easy' to us as to them but as I understand they still have to walk the road and that, so I've been led to believe, is harder.
Again, not to talk too much about my disbelief in free will but I do believe that whether we have it or not we have an experience of it and as you say making our own choices through which we can make right and wrong choices and, hopefully, grow and learn in discovering which is which.
Wow, following from that I think I should get on with finishing given the other presentation of the Ontological Argument shortly.
[/quote]
Quote from: marie glen on May 07, 2016, 08:27:34 PM
Affirmation:
If stories dreamed up and written by man, have a happy ending, how much MORE so, the story of God Almighty? Aka, what it is He is doing.
:Peace2: God bless!
Not all of them. Some stories of men have terribly distressing endings, I alluded to some of those in my first post you just answered up there.
CST, I didn't mean to imply I understand "justice" fully.. I should have written understand the idea of justice being necessary.. and even that would not be fully :gsmile:
I tend to avoid movies and the like which do not end happily! How sad it will be if life actually turns out to be more like a greek tragedy than a happily ever after... Which to me, doesn't jive. I can't perceive of God being anything less than utter perfection. To me, that pretty much answers it all + the Word (sWord of truth) + logic (related after all to logos). LOgic being "where would such and such an idea lead?" such as Yahweh losing some folks... would equal not perfect.
I don't believe those whom I think will come to faith and repentance on judgment 'day' will simply believe and repent upon being resurrected, tho I think some will.. (surely? why not? they've been resurrected from their grave). And I believe there will be all degrees of 'easy' and 'difficult' even as there is now during this life and those who come to the faith during it.. Otherwise there would be no "weeping" and "gnashing of teeth" nor "outer darkness" - the psyche is no easy thing surely! :gsmile:
And I didn't mean to suggest that you did mean to imply such, I can't actually remember exactly how I did take what you said. My only intended point, I think, was that complexities about the nature of justice could create stumbling blocks to have our otherwise 'ideal' outcome at judgment.
I tend to avoid movies that I think (or fear) will directly upset me but to avoid all movies I think won't have happy endings would preclude an awful lot of movies. I've seen a lot of stories that I get the impression were supposed to have a 'happy ending' and it's meant to be perceived that way I just happy to find the less ideal that the writer appears to have intended and often they can be the worst precisely because the journey creates an expectation that isn't met and is often utterly violated.
Consciously only choosing stories you know are going to have a happy ending is bound to be really limiting and requires learning the story before you watch the story, which kind of defeats the point.
On top of that no story can actually undermine God's Happy Ending because none of them can finally address the question of eternity because they stop. But my point is, to use a tame example, that Snow White is all Happily Ever After... unless you're the wicked queen.
I also didn't mean to imply I thought you meant resurrection = instant repentance. I know that you've said you think it takes a five hundred year long judgment day. I get what you're saying but the problem is that it doesn't change the fact that some didn't work in the vineyards. Still I also sometimes wonder if in some cases judgment will be know less dramatic in some cases than what you get on Daytime and evening television. Than I think better of the idea. All the same I think the concept sounds weird.
God just telling everyone everyone else's darkest secrets. Why, so people can judge each other negatively for all the bad things they've done? What's the point? We're all equally guilty and we do more than enough of that in this lifetime?
I know, right? My perception, or idea of Judgment Day is a review of human history.. within each psyche will be their own personal stories.. :2c:
I do watch some movies, etc which do not end as happily ever after.. tho I know they have their redeeming qualities, I avoid movies about dying from cancer.. But war movies, I actually (sort of) 'enjoy', maybe because all the weeping is kind of cleansing..
you know, :Chinscratch: if folks hadn't had 'hell' drilled into them, the folks who wake up in the 2nd resurrection perhaps.. well, let's just say Judgment 'Day' wouldn't likely be half so terrifying! Imagine waking up from ones grave, faced with the bright holiness of the presence of God.. and remembering all those things you heard about (gulp) hell!
Oh I think it will be a terrible time! howling.. and screaming.. and weeping.. and gnashing of teeth... all part of the whole lesson/drama. Terrible time for those experiencing it as rising in the resurrection of judgment, and also for those watching the whole thing.. perhaps being put to work therein somehow..
..Also with some unfinished business between persons! Attempted murders breaking out, etc. Whole populations rising up concerning, and against, their despots that abused them. (Geeesh :mshock: I think I'm getting as imaginative as some of the hell dreamers..)
....and "the wicked queen in Snow White" if we carry the story further, to where we assume all stories (if real :laughing7: ) will go.. she will ultimately repent.. yet always.. in her consciousness knowing she has played the part of wicked queen.. although :Chinscratch: Yahweh himself chose her to play that role.. (because, hey, someone's gotta do it? :dontknow: ) :gsmile:
QuoteMy perception, or idea of Judgment Day is a review of human history.. within each psyche will be their own personal stories.. :2c:
I agree entirely. As does Paul in his epistle to the Romans....
their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Thank you, EW, I had not noticed that before! :thumbsup:
Quote from: marie glen on May 10, 2016, 08:30:17 PM
I know, right? My perception, or idea of Judgment Day is a review of human history.. within each psyche will be their own personal stories.. :2c:
I do watch some movies, etc which do not end as happily ever after.. tho I know they have their redeeming qualities, I avoid movies about dying from cancer.. But war movies, I actually (sort of) 'enjoy', maybe because all the weeping is kind of cleansing..
you know, :Chinscratch: if folks hadn't had 'hell' drilled into them, the folks who wake up in the 2nd resurrection perhaps.. well, let's just say Judgment 'Day' wouldn't likely be half so terrifying! Imagine waking up from ones grave, faced with the bright holiness of the presence of God.. and remembering all those things you heard about (gulp) hell!
Oh I think it will be a terrible time! howling.. and screaming.. and weeping.. and gnashing of teeth... all part of the whole lesson/drama. Terrible time for those experiencing it as rising in the resurrection of judgment, and also for those watching the whole thing.. perhaps being put to work therein somehow..
..Also with some unfinished business between persons! Attempted murders breaking out, etc. Whole populations rising up concerning, and against, their despots that abused them. (Geeesh :mshock: I think I'm getting as imaginative as some of the hell dreamers..)
....and "the wicked queen in Snow White" if we carry the story further, to where we assume all stories (if real :laughing7: ) will go.. she will ultimately repent.. yet always.. in her consciousness knowing she has played the part of wicked queen.. although :Chinscratch: Yahweh himself chose her to play that role.. (because, hey, someone's gotta do it? :dontknow: ) :gsmile:
Yeah, it's interesting what we choose to avoid but it seems clear that I haven't made my objections here very clear. While I don't go out of my way to watch films of people dying of cancer I don't particular have a problem with them overall. At the same time I don't tend to watch war film as the period interests me little.
Your point about the concept of Hell is an interesting and no doubt important one because God hasn't gone out of His way to remove it from the Bible or our consciousness. He's put enough in the Bible to make us certain it isn't eternal but apparently not enough that people can't read around those bits if they are inclined to do so and go to the bits that seem to suggest differently. I really think there's a reason for that and it's probably got something to do with the fact that even if it's not forever waking up at the judgement without any fear or concern over the consequences of sin and indeed living our lives like that would not be constructive and would be at least as duplicitous as suggesting we might actually burn forever. At least there actually is an eternal aspect to the consequences of our sinning somewhere along the line.
I'd agree that it does sound like one way or another it might well be a 'terrible time' but again it brings me back to the point I made before "how does God bear it?" and how do those experiencing it bear it and not go mad? Which would make them hard to save. Of course there's to (at least) sorts of suffering 'direct' when you are suffering because of what is happening to you and 'indirect' and 'indirect' which is when you suffer because of what you see happening to others. I concur that 'Hell' could easily comprise both those aspects.
Obviously no one is going to break out of Hell, and if they do they're not going to be able to enter the gates of the city till they're clean. I curious as to why you used the example of 'attempted' murderers, who I personally don't see as any better than murders in and of themselves.
Yeah, in the 'original' Snow White (I use that tentatively tracing the original of fairy tales is hard) the Queen mangaes to murder Snow White three times before she finally marries the Prince. The Queen of seeing this goes into a rage and drops dead. And that's the end of her.
But this is a tame example and I intended it not as an example of what actually offends me but an example of how what we're meant to take as 'happy endings' can be relative and may not be happy for all involves. This is life, it can upset me, but it generally doesn't offend me.
I'll try and give you a better example.
Your American history has given us many great works of literature, great tales and fairy tales. One of those tales was written at the beginning of the last century spawned fourteen official sequels and a very successful movie musical that tends to be taken as better than the book, though I suspect only by people who haven't actually read it.
In case you haven't worked it out I am referring to The Wonderful Wizard Of Oz by L. Frank Baum. It's a beautiful book. Very hard to fault and thoroughly enjoyable. But it also has fourteen sequels. Which are not.
So far I've managed to read all but two of those books and the first excepted (and to a degree The Lost Princess Of Oz) they are some of the most unpleasant books I have ever read.
Why well, from about the second book Oz is ruled by a beautiful fairy princess called Ozma whom is adored by all her subjects and it is impossible not to love. Oh, really? Try me!
I can't stand Ozma, her decisions are completely partisan, utterly arbitrary and morally defunct and she is way to liberal with the water of oblivion.
I can't stand the woman, she seem to be the worse form of autocrat, a tyrant who doesn't know she's a tyrant.
She rules the whole of Oz favouring those she know and shares her palace with over subjects who might get into spats with her favorites even thorough she's never even bothered to meet them. And you're meant to like this thoroughly unpleasant character. And all the stories are supposed to have 'happy endings' except for anyone who got on the wrong side of this vengeful madam.
These stories are so immoral in their nature and the fact they are written for children who aren't supposed to see this is something I find hugely disturbing, and yes offense. I've struggle to place exactly what elements in stories set me off like this but moral hypocrisy seems to have a lot to do with it.
Quote from: marie glen on May 11, 2016, 05:20:51 AM
Thank you, EW, I had not noticed that before! :thumbsup:
Ah, but there's a problem with that because people's consciences don't agree on things and illustrations like the above show this. And some people are sensitive and inclined to judge themselves negatively and others very positively.
On the argument this suggests the self-righteous will get into Heaven the easiest because they never let their consciences condemn anything they do. But this is the opposite of what Jesus taught.
That's very true.. When I read part of the book "I'm Ok, You're Ok" years ago, what it said struck me as very true.. That there's (basically) three psychologies (according to the book)
1 - I'm ok. You're not ok. - I think we can see this in many folks.. but it is not the healthy mind set
2 - You're ok. I'm not ok. - This too, is not the healthy mindset, for obvious reasons.. which you touched on..
3 - the healthy mind set - no chip on the shoulder, no inferiority complex.. "I'm ok. You're ok." Of course this cannot always be true. Faced with Charley Manson or someone, it would not be true to say "I'm ok, you're ok...
Which sort of reminds me of my own biggest reason for not wanting judgement day to be a piece of cake - (for the everyday sinner, no more so than it was for the rest of us 'everyday' sinners).. but certainly not for despots, dictators and genocidal maniacs.. including all those on a lesser scale.. Nope, should not be "easy".. Not by a long shot!
And, their victims 'deserve' to think "I can't wait for judgment day" when their evil is exposed and they have to pay their dues! I find myself thinking "I can't wait for judgment day" when I hear of some terrible evil done to, well, some of those everyday sinners.. (regular folk/people -- we're all in this together). Or when I read of some horrible ruler in history.. etc.. etc..
I actually, however, am not entirely sure any humans will go to the lake of fire. If indeed, or by any chance, judgement 'day' does last nigh unto 500 years - who by end of 'day', after being risen from their grave and living through and witnessing a long day of the review of all things.. who, after all that, isn't going to "believe" and therefor, faced with the radiance of God's holiness and purifying fiery presence, not going to come to their senses and repent - mightily.
This is just my theory of course. But I can't help noticing that in revelation chapter 20, last verse, when it says those not written in the book, will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, it doesn't say "age-during" or anything else pertaining to duration at all.
The only lake of fire verse which does mention duration is Rev 20:10 - (YLT) - "and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." - "ages to the ages" being #g165 "aiōn" with a slight difference in the two "ages/aion, but I don't know greek so..
αιωνας of the αιωνων :dontknow:
But we do know Col 1:20 and Eph 1:10 which say "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus." And how Yahweh will be "all in all".. (so, either the devil perishes in the lof or there is a duration..)
In Revelation chapter 19 - I may of course be very wrong, and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who agrees with me, but in revelation 19 when "the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the LOF" I don't believe they are persons at all (but institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return). So to my mind, before end of judgment day - thus far, no humans in the lof.
"Judgment" too upon unrepentant evildoers (who likely no one would like to see get off easy) will also come upon many at Jesus' return, when the birds 'of midheaven' - the birds which fly higher than the little birds? are told to gather for the great feast of God in the day of the great slaughter (when the towers fall) is likely not to be too clear of sailing either.. And that's a large part of what I personally think "judgment" is. The coming upon our own heads, our own doings and choices. (Amen, not 'free-will', but what I think of as the ability to make choices, an offshoot of thinking ability?)
'Hell' --- fire as destruction.. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer, on the 'success' of the Manhattan Project.
"The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard" - Isaiah 24:20
...all just my :2c: of course.. :gsmile:
Quote from: marie glen on May 11, 2016, 10:28:24 PM
That's very true.. When I read part of the book "I'm Ok, You're Ok" years ago, what it said struck me as very true.. That there's (basically) three psychologies (according to the book)
1 - I'm ok. You're not ok. - I think we can see this in many folks.. but it is not the healthy mind set
2 - You're ok. I'm not ok. - This too, is not the healthy mindset, for obvious reasons.. which you touched on..
3 - the healthy mind set - no chip on the shoulder, no inferiority complex.. "I'm ok. You're ok." Of course this cannot always be true. Faced with Charley Manson or someone, it would not be true to say "I'm ok, you're ok...
Which sort of reminds me of my own biggest reason for not wanting judgement day to be a piece of cake - (for the everyday sinner, no more so than it was for the rest of us 'everyday' sinners).. but certainly not for despots, dictators and genocidal maniacs.. including all those on a lesser scale.. Nope, should not be "easy".. Not by a long shot!
And, their victims 'deserve' to think "I can't wait for judgment day" when their evil is exposed and they have to pay their dues! I find myself thinking "I can't wait for judgment day" when I hear of some terrible evil done to, well, some of those everyday sinners.. (regular folk/people -- we're all in this together). Or when I read of some horrible ruler in history.. etc.. etc..
I actually, however, am not entirely sure any humans will go to the lake of fire. If indeed, or by any chance, judgement 'day' does last nigh unto 500 years - who by end of 'day', after being risen from their grave and living through and witnessing a long day of the review of all things.. who, after all that, isn't going to "believe" and therefor, faced with the radiance of God's holiness and purifying fiery presence, not going to come to their senses and repent - mightily.
This is just my theory of course. But I can't help noticing that in revelation chapter 20, last verse, when it says those not written in the book, will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, it doesn't say "age-during" or anything else pertaining to duration at all.
The only lake of fire verse which does mention duration is Rev 20:10 - (YLT) - "and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." - "ages to the ages" being #g165 "aiōn" with a slight difference in the two "ages/aion, but I don't know greek so..
αιωνας of the αιωνων :dontknow:
But we do know Col 1:20 and Eph 1:10 which say "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus." And how Yahweh will be "all in all".. (so, either the devil perishes in the lof or there is a duration..)
In Revelation chapter 19 - I may of course be very wrong, and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who agrees with me, but in revelation 19 when "the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the LOF" I don't believe they are persons at all (but institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return). So to my mind, before end of judgment day - thus far, no humans in the lof.
"Judgment" too upon unrepentant evildoers (who likely no one would like to see get off easy) will also come upon many at Jesus' return, when the birds 'of midheaven' - the birds which fly higher than the little birds? are told to gather for the great feast of God in the day of the great slaughter (when the towers fall) is likely not to be too clear of sailing either.. And that's a large part of what I personally think "judgment" is. The coming upon our own heads, our own doings and choices. (Amen, not 'free-will', but what I think of as the ability to make choices, an offshoot of thinking ability?)
'Hell' --- fire as destruction.. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer, on the 'success' of the Manhattan Project.
"The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard" - Isaiah 24:20
...all just my :2c: of course.. :gsmile:
I prefer to just go with the scriptures, which say those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life will go into the lake of fire. Why write it if it is meritless? The issue is, what is the fire of God?
It is not actual flames. John saw Jesus and saw flames in His eyes and His face shining like the sun. He was in no pain lol. The fire was a good thing. It always is- but it doesnt always FEEL like a good things.
After all, it will destroy both death and the grave, what so bad about that?
It is a question that still faces a lot of universalists in that it asks, what is the nature and purpose of a post earthly-life "fire" if there is one, such as Gehenna and the Lake of Fire suggest for some believers.
If the issue is to torment someone until they bow the knee and confess, it is still a pretty weird version of YHWH that desires to convert people that way. However, if the fire represents intensity of light (the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ), the bringing of hidden things to light(every hidden thing will be brought to light...everything brought to the light becomes light) then, altho the experience may be unpleasant in some measure(all discipline is for the moment unpleasant) the issue is not torment but rather it is the exposure of the secrets of the heart and the removal of the veils of the self-life in the presence of the infinite love of God in Christ.... a distinction worthy of making in my view because at its root the gospel is the revelation of the divine nature of God, His ways and His whys.
Quote from: marie glen on May 11, 2016, 10:28:24 PM
That's very true.. When I read part of the book "I'm Ok, You're Ok" years ago, what it said struck me as very true.. That there's (basically) three psychologies (according to the book)
1 - I'm ok. You're not ok. - I think we can see this in many folks.. but it is not the healthy mind set
2 - You're ok. I'm not ok. - This too, is not the healthy mindset, for obvious reasons.. which you touched on..
3 - the healthy mind set - no chip on the shoulder, no inferiority complex.. "I'm ok. You're ok." Of course this cannot always be true. Faced with Charley Manson or someone, it would not be true to say "I'm ok, you're ok...
Which sort of reminds me of my own biggest reason for not wanting judgement day to be a piece of cake - (for the everyday sinner, no more so than it was for the rest of us 'everyday' sinners).. but certainly not for despots, dictators and genocidal maniacs.. including all those on a lesser scale.. Nope, should not be "easy".. Not by a long shot!
And, their victims 'deserve' to think "I can't wait for judgment day" when their evil is exposed and they have to pay their dues! I find myself thinking "I can't wait for judgment day" when I hear of some terrible evil done to, well, some of those everyday sinners.. (regular folk/people -- we're all in this together). Or when I read of some horrible ruler in history.. etc.. etc..
I actually, however, am not entirely sure any humans will go to the lake of fire. If indeed, or by any chance, judgement 'day' does last nigh unto 500 years - who by end of 'day', after being risen from their grave and living through and witnessing a long day of the review of all things.. who, after all that, isn't going to "believe" and therefor, faced with the radiance of God's holiness and purifying fiery presence, not going to come to their senses and repent - mightily.
This is just my theory of course. But I can't help noticing that in revelation chapter 20, last verse, when it says those not written in the book, will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death, it doesn't say "age-during" or anything else pertaining to duration at all.
The only lake of fire verse which does mention duration is Rev 20:10 - (YLT) - "and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." - "ages to the ages" being #g165 "aiōn" with a slight difference in the two "ages/aion, but I don't know greek so..
αιωνας of the αιωνων :dontknow:
But we do know Col 1:20 and Eph 1:10 which say "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus." And how Yahweh will be "all in all".. (so, either the devil perishes in the lof or there is a duration..)
In Revelation chapter 19 - I may of course be very wrong, and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who agrees with me, but in revelation 19 when "the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the LOF" I don't believe they are persons at all (but institutions of man active at the time of Jesus' return). So to my mind, before end of judgment day - thus far, no humans in the lof.
"Judgment" too upon unrepentant evildoers (who likely no one would like to see get off easy) will also come upon many at Jesus' return, when the birds 'of midheaven' - the birds which fly higher than the little birds? are told to gather for the great feast of God in the day of the great slaughter (when the towers fall) is likely not to be too clear of sailing either.. And that's a large part of what I personally think "judgment" is. The coming upon our own heads, our own doings and choices. (Amen, not 'free-will', but what I think of as the ability to make choices, an offshoot of thinking ability?)
'Hell' --- fire as destruction.. "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer, on the 'success' of the Manhattan Project.
"The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard" - Isaiah 24:20
...all just my :2c: of course.. :gsmile:
Wow, fascinating. Even though I'm not sure you were trying you seem to have addressed just about everything I've said in that last post by relating it all to one psychological philosophy.
Sounds good, in most all of those stories I remember that got my goat there does seem to be an unpleasant mixture of cynicism and moral hypocrisy both of which I rationally know to be the most destructive attitudes on the planet but also know are the hardest sins to avoid.
Often the story position appears to be 'I'm OK, You're not OK' with added because of that I can do whatever I like to you and I'll still be OK and you'll still be not OK and there's this feeling we're meant to endorse that. I just find that very unpalatable and it offends my sense of justice or something.
That said, again I like to believe everything you say about what you feel about Judgment Day and I feel that there are hints in the Bible that can be used to make cases to support it. You and greg have just introduced another one by basically downgrading the lake to a pond. It doesn't sound like it will hold an awful lot of people that.
However, I still feel I have to come down on the side of EW and 'why write it if it's merit-less?' sounds like another way of saying that it's not in the spirit of what's written. That said, the merit of writing it may not lie in the unfolding of what it describes but how it works on and affects the reader of the work.
But remember while it sounds logical for the victims of injustice to feel as you describe towards those that hurt them and natural to do so remember history is written by the victors and the victor in this case is Jesus who commands us to forgive. And such thoughts aren't that forgiving. However natural they might seem. <sigh> Hard, hard, hard.
I have forgive alot of people in my life. But it seems that they can't do the same. We all makes mistakes and it is what god planned. So if god plans for us to do bad and learn from it , it was ment to happen? Even if we wish it didn't happen? I learned a lot in my life time. And I never wanted to hurt no one. But it seems people have a hard time to fogive me.
Quote from: SarahR37 on May 12, 2016, 06:40:32 PM
I have forgive alot of people in my life. But it seems that they can't do the same. We all makes mistakes and it is what god planned. So if god plans for us to do bad and learn from it , it was ment to happen? Even if we wish it didn't happen? I learned a lot in my life time. And I never wanted to hurt no one. But it seems people have a hard time to fogive me.
:smile: At least you seem comfortable to talk about it and it is certain that it is also part of God's plan that they will forgive you and we'll forgive all those we've neglected to forgive. Even while it can suck to wait for it right now. I wonder how many people set out to hurt others. I doubt it's that many and then they get hurt themselves and start to go down hill on that. :bsad:
It's my belief since the Heavenly Father does the choosing, for most their reconciliation will be no more stringent than ours is and was. Or the fire He baptized/s us with.
Sometimes I believe the lake of fire is what it says it is, death, which contrary to what popularly is believed, I believe is nonlife. And there's no verses mentioning a 3rd resurrection... :faint:
And I believe judgment day to be, surprise(to many) - Day of Atonement - since the ancient Spring holy days are a shadow of Jesus' first advent, it would be illogical that the fall ones do not represent His long second advent.
By verses we have describing Day of Atonement I believe we can learn much.
I do believe there's very likely to be for the truly evil much weeping, gnashing of teeth and outer darkness.
And of course believe "all" ultimately will choose Yahweh/life/perfection, and that His purity and holiness will permeate and rule all things :dsunny: which I can't help thinking there will be no more attitudes of "I'm okay but there's something wrong with you" but the whole-some psychology of mutual respect and affection.
:Peace2: :gsmile:
U.R. Affirmation:
From Luke 4:18
.."to preach deliverance to the captives.."
with
Hebrews 2:14,15
"..Since the children have flesh and blood, he too.. so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death.. and free all those who through fear of death were held in bondage.."
and
Romans 11:32
"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
Quote from: marie glen on July 06, 2016, 02:49:44 PM
It's my belief since the Heavenly Father does the choosing, for most their reconciliation will be no more stringent than ours is and was. Or the fire He baptized/s us with.
Sometimes I believe the lake of fire is what it says it is, death, which contrary to what popularly is believed, I believe is nonlife. And there's no verses mentioning a 3rd resurrection... :faint:
And I believe judgment day to be, surprise(to many) - Day of Atonement - since the ancient Spring holy days are a shadow of Jesus' first advent, it would be illogical that the fall ones do not represent His long second advent.
By verses we have describing Day of Atonement I believe we can learn much.
I do believe there's very likely to be for the truly evil much weeping, gnashing of teeth and outer darkness.
And of course believe "all" ultimately will choose Yahweh/life/perfection, and that His purity and holiness will permeate and rule all things :dsunny: which I can't help thinking there will be no more attitudes of "I'm okay but there's something wrong with you" but the whole-some psychology of mutual respect and affection.
:Peace2: :gsmile:
I'd like to agree with that and try to but struggle to see 'ours' as an objective term here as clearly there are some Christians (or would claim to be) that have pretty easy lives and there are others, like the apostles, who suffered and were executed for their beliefs. There are also a number of non-Christians who never had the chance to hear of Jesus who have awfully tragic lives. Claims about how stringently we are disciplined seems to come to nothing if we compare that discipline to the martyrs. Or think about the suffering of the heathen disenfranchised who nevertheless must receive further correction owing to not being Christian.
That's certainly how tradition would have us see it. Something that bothers me about UR is that sometimes is seems like it's simply ET-lite. Like all we have to is take out the endless aspects of the consequences of the great judgement and all the items of Christianity people might find objectionable go away. Hardly surprising give that the official religion drills all these things into our heads without us really thinking about it.
Amen, CST! ...to me part of the 'question' has been how to make sense of the different degrees of suffering.. Some suffer horribly.. And some, it would seem, not so much (at least or especially, when compared to the truly horrific things which have happened in history and happens to some, Christian and non Cristian alike. By less stringent, I mean I can't envision for all those who never came to believe during this life, many who never ever heard the Good News, a resurrection (the 2nd, 1000 years after the 1st) which simply consists of waking up and being cast into a lake of fire. It just does not sound logical nor reasonable to me.)
Why the suffering, and why suffering not equally distributed? The only sensible 'answer' it seems to me, is things are being let to run their course. With of course His interference to some degree, but somewhat minimal, otherwise it wouldn't be natural course. When He endowed rationality, choice, naturally comes along with it. And what is choice if you don't let it run its natural course?
And in all of this, I can't help thinking also, that our Heavenly Father being life itself, being that life force(?) he lives through, suffers, and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur.. Imagine putting himself through aLL that..
One thing I thoroughly believe is that he is Perfect and is Perfection. And perfect (surely?) makes no mistakes, loses nothing, and the 'end' result of all this, can only be the best one possible.
:dontknow: :cloud9:
If the wages (result) of sin is death.. And death came upon all (not 'hell' - that's not even worth considering, but death is the result, the law of sin and death which all are under). And Jesus defeated death for only some? How is that even remotely possible? Or logical? Jus' sayin'.. :laughing7: :gsmile:
I'm sure this has been mentioned here before..!
Quote from: marie glen on July 26, 2016, 01:31:33 PM
Amen, CST! ...to me part of the 'question' has been how to make sense of the different degrees of suffering.. Some suffer horribly.. And some, it would seem, not so much (at least or especially, when compared to the truly horrific things which have happened in history and happens to some, Christian and non Cristian alike. By less stringent, I mean I can't envision for all those who never came to believe during this life, many who never ever heard the Good News, a resurrection (the 2nd, 1000 years after the 1st) which simply consists of waking up and being cast into a lake of fire. It just does not sound logical nor reasonable to me.)
Why the suffering, and why suffering not equally distributed? The only sensible 'answer' it seems to me, is things are being let to run their course. With of course His interference to some degree, but somewhat minimal, otherwise it wouldn't be natural course. When He endowed rationality, choice, naturally comes along with it. And what is choice if you don't let it run its natural course?
And in all of this, I can't help thinking also, that our Heavenly Father being life itself, being that life force(?) he lives through, suffers, and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur.. Imagine putting himself through aLL that..
One thing I thoroughly believe is that he is Perfect and is Perfection. And perfect (surely?) makes no mistakes, loses nothing, and the 'end' result of all this, can only be the best one possible.
:dontknow: :cloud9:
It doesn't sound logical or reasonable to me either, but there are other things that Christianity has traditionally believed that also don't sound logical or reasonable so I continue to be unsure what to do with it, there's only so far you can dilute (reinterpret more mildly) the text of the Bible before the interpretation starts to become tenuous even to you. But, technically, of course, the dead don't just wake up and get cast into the lake of fire. There's a judgement first. The concern, of course, is the Bible at places appears to suggest this process in a formality because who does and doesn't go into the lake is determined exclusively by who's names are written in the Book of Life a strange concept the content of which sometimes appears fixed and sometimes flexible. Ultimately unless names can be added in after it's opened and indeed first read, some people will never find life and will never enter Heaven and therefore UR is wrong. The question for us therefore is not whether or not names can be put into the Book of Life, it's whether they can be added during the judgement process.
Natural course, I think that's what I alluded to in my post on the thread about the question on the creation of Hell. I see you've posted in their too so I'll go there now.
Amen to your last post, it's hard to see how it could be untrue.
Here's an affirmation, as I posted elsewhere earlier today in my thread, "Will the Prosecutor's Chair be Empty?"
Isn't God clever in that, before the Great White Throne judgment, He takes the accuser of the brethren out of the way? I have never heard of read of it, but once you realize it, it pops out as obvious. God is going to keep His own counsel, with no distractions from the peanut gallery of the Prince of Heck, who is dragged off to the abyss/bottomless pit/Lake of Fire before the judgment proceeds. What a merciful God we serve!
Again, that's one of those points that sounds very nice and plausible but starts to seem a bit tenuous is you stop to think about it. I don't want to rule it out entirely and don't think this thread is really the place to go into detail but even without Satan present people are being judged according to what's written in the books, that I would expect to be true, but go to Heaven or Hell in accordance with whose names are recorded in the Book of Life which is entirely down to God. On that score it's more important, I think that Death is recorded as going into the Lake of Fire before it is announced that any people not found in the Book of Life do. But that still seems a mite tenuous.
Quote from: CST on July 26, 2016, 02:38:55 PM
The question for us therefore is not whether or not names can be put into the Book of Life, it's whether they can be added during the judgement process.
Exactly.. and what we have to go on is God's Word.. also the question to my mind is, what is required for one's name to be written in the book of life? I think it requires "belief".. true and honest belief in Jesus as Messiah and Savior and Yahweh as Most High God.. or that's how I would think of it anyway.. And since I believe judgement day' to be an age (of 500 years more or less, allowing time for Satan's short release and the surrounding of the holy city) - this 500 years, because of the spacing of the ancient fall holy days (shadow of our Lord's long 2nd advent?)
So being of a pondering sort of mind, i find myself thinking about the resurrection of all those not yet saved, and what it would be like for them. As soon as many are awakened from their grave and find their selves in front of the Great White Throne and Yahweh's radiant presence, I think many will "believe" right then.. and begin the repentance process. Some weeping.. even some gnashing of teeth.. even, for some.. outer darkness! I mean just think of all the evil in mankind's history! Oppressions.. Very few people have lived good and free lives, actually.. Then i figure those at the end of judgment age who have refused to bend the knee - thus far - for the Word does say "every knee shall bow" and this is written in three places - Philippians, Romans and Isaiah.. And of course "God will be all in all". But those few very stubborn holdouts, if there are any, shall spend aionian time in the purifying LOF.. or POF pond of fire.. :smile:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on July 26, 2016, 06:09:57 PM
Here's an affirmation, as I posted elsewhere earlier today in my thread, "Will the Prosecutor's Chair be Empty?"
Isn't God clever in that, before the Great White Throne judgment, He takes the accuser of the brethren out of the way? I have never heard of read of it, but once you realize it, it pops out as obvious. God is going to keep His own counsel, with no distractions from the peanut gallery of the Prince of Heck, who is dragged off to the abyss/bottomless pit/Lake of Fire before the judgment proceeds. What a merciful God we serve!
It's true!
Revelation 20:7-11a
"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it.." :thumbsup: :banana:
Just as a thought from a different perspective.....
Who is to say that the book of life is ever used again after what is depicted before the Great White Throne? In Daniel 7:10 and Rev 20:12 it is written that "the books were opened". In Romans 2 it is written, "their conscience either accusing them or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ". Determinations are made by what are in the books, the scrolls, the records of the acts and secret attitudes of all who have ever lived. "The Lord knows those who are His"(2 Tim 2:19) and He is the only one who writes a name in that book, or blots it out
Whatever the lake of fire represents(I believe it represents being immersed in light in the presence of the Lord and all His holy ones until every hidden thing is brought to light and every knee bows), Phil 2:9-211 and 1 Cor 15:25-28 make it clear that every adversay will be reconciled. Whenever that point comes(each in their own order)- perhaps there will be no more judgment, no more need for books or thrones, they will all have been "gathered into one in Christ" and become a part of the "all in all". According to Paul in 1 Cor 15 "all rule power and authority" will be anulled previous to God becoming all in all. Peter says the same thing in other words in 2 Peter 3,
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will be destroyed(lythesetai- dissolved) by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare(heurethesetai-exposed).
It is only by assumption that we can impute any future relevance to the book of life beyond that which is written of at the GWT. To me this is how Christian myths get started and perpetuate, based on information that is speculative- and really non-existent. We really just cant see that far. :o)
All I can see about the book of life from what is written is that at the GWT- whatever that will be- the book of life will be used to determine who is in need of whatever the lake of fire is, or better, who is not in need of it.
Personally, I believe millions or even billions who never heard of Jesus or the law of Moses will bow their knees instantly at the GWT and give glory to God the Father. As strange as it sounds, I believe some will hold out in some way, measure, until the fire in His eyes and the sword of His mouth and the love shining from His face finally disarms the last adversary- at which point death will have totally disappeared. :dsunny:
Me, I am going through this every day. The light is penetrating further and further into the chaos of my soul. I find myself perceiving the acts and attitudes of my life both in the past and in each Day in the consuming fire of His love and I must agree quickly with my adversary while I am on the way to the judge lest I be delivered over to the bailff for imprisonment.
Freedom abides ony so long as I agree with what I see in the mirror of His penetrating gaze.
19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 12:13:50 AM
Quote from: CST on July 26, 2016, 02:38:55 PM
The question for us therefore is not whether or not names can be put into the Book of Life, it's whether they can be added during the judgement process.
So being of a pondering sort of mind, i find myself thinking about the resurrection of all those not yet saved, and what it would be like for them. As soon as many are awakened from their grave and find their selves in front of the Great White Throne and Yahweh's radiant presence, I think many will "believe" right then.. and begin the repentance process. Some weeping.. even some gnashing of teeth.. even, for some.. outer darkness! I mean just think of all the evil in mankind's history! Oppressions.. Very few people have lived good and free lives, actually.. Then i figure those at the end of judgment age who have refused to bend the knee - thus far - for the Word does say "every knee shall bow" and this is written in three places - Philippians, Romans and Isaiah.. And of course "God will be all in all". But those few very stubborn holdouts, if there are any, shall spend aionian time in the purifying LOF.. or POF pond of fire.. :smile:
Or we could just look at a crucifix. I'm absolutely certain that if you want evidence for how wicked people are you need look no further than remind them that they devised to execute people like that.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 27, 2016, 08:02:50 AM
Just as a thought from a different perspective.....
Who is to say that the book of life is ever used again after what is depicted before the Great White Throne? In Daniel 7:10 and Rev 20:12 it is written that "the books were opened". In Romans 2 it is written, "their conscience either accusing them or excusing them on the Day God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ". Determinations are made by what are in the books, the scrolls, the records of the acts and secret attitudes of all who have ever lived. "The Lord knows those who are His"(2 Tim 2:19) and He is the only one who writes a name in that book, or blots it out
Whatever the lake of fire represents(I believe it represents being immersed in light in the presence of the Lord and all His holy ones until every hidden thing is brought to light and every knee bows), Phil 2:9-211 and 1 Cor 15:25-28 make it clear that every adversay will be reconciled. Whenever that point comes(each in their own order)- perhaps there will be no more judgment, no more need for books or thrones, they will all have been "gathered into one in Christ" and become a part of the "all in all". According to Paul in 1 Cor 15 "all rule power and authority" will be anulled previous to God becoming all in all. Peter says the same thing in other words in 2 Peter 3,
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will be destroyed(lythesetai- dissolved) by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare(heurethesetai-exposed).
It is only by assumption that we can impute any future relevance to the book of life beyond that which is written of at the GWT. To me this is how Christian myths get started and perpetuate, based on information that is speculative- and really non-existent. We really just cant see that far. :o)
All I can see about the book of life from what is written is that at the GWT- whatever that will be- the book of life will be used to determine who is in need of whatever the lake of fire is, or better, who is not in need of it.
Personally, I believe millions or even billions who never heard of Jesus or the law of Moses will bow their knees instantly at the GWT and give glory to God the Father. As strange as it sounds, I believe some will hold out in some way, measure, until the fire in His eyes and the sword of His mouth and the love shining from His face finally disarms the last adversary- at which point death will have totally disappeared. :dsunny:
Me, I am going through this every day. The light is penetrating further and further into the chaos of my soul. I find myself perceiving the acts and attitudes of my life both in the past and in each Day in the consuming fire of His love and I must agree quickly with my adversary while I am on the way to the judge lest I be delivered over to the bailff for imprisonment.
Freedom abides ony so long as I agree with what I see in the mirror of His penetrating gaze.
19Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
'This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Rev 20: 14b-15)
Book of Life is used to contrast second death or death. Those whose names are not found therein, it is suggested, are thus dead to Truth and thus can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Being made alive in Jesus is what qualifies people for going into Heaven and why their name is in the Book. Since no-one believes anyone will go to Heaven until they meet the necessary criteria and those who meet that criteria would be those whose names are in the Book of Life it's not a unreasonable conclusion to believe that, at bare minimum they will all have to meet that criteria for having their name in the Book before they can leave the lake of Fire.
'And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true."' (Rev. 21:5)
Notice He doesn't say 'Behold, I make all new things.' Which would be different. That statement rather reduces the meaning of the phrases were He talks about destroying the Earth.
I can clearly see Eaglesway, how you perceive the lake of fire and I do agree some of what we ponder and think about judgment day is speculative beyond what is written about lives being examined.. And this may be where we differ, as I think of judgment 'day' or more accurately the GWT judgment to be a great 'day' of review, even intensive and collective review. Collectively not so much the review of individual's lives but of history and all mankind's more collective ways, doings and choices.
It's very true that our human reasonings and speculations on biblical matters can be quite faulty. We can also wrongly interpret what we believe to be answers from His spirit. To me, the whole idea of the GWT judgment being a great day of review and individual coming to terms, with the elect helping to counsel individuals came in a package with what I perceived to be answers to a heartfelt prayer for better understanding in order to have better answers {when my son at age 16 asked me two questions I was not at all happy or satisfied with my answers to - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm!?" - I guess that last ones not a question? :laugh2:
To me, logic is a line (I think) I can see, an extension. And the truth, to me, is a whole. It's why 'hell' was never a consideration for me. To me, by extension, I can't help thinking a great day of review (collective) is an awesome opportunity! I believe He is creating an un-breakable paradise/perfection. That it will be un-breakable and un-disturbed because every single psyche in heaven and earth will thoroughly understand the rod of truth which can never in no way ever be broken.
You see, I don't see the lake of fire as being a process of death, but as death. That the only reason any soul/person ever lives after their death is because of "resurrection" an active act of Yahweh (and, or Jesus?) And therefor the only reason for a distinction between a first death, and a second. (Having nothing to do with us being 'metaphorically' dead before being "born again".)
Though I have toyed with the idea of Satan's survival of it, the LOF, for the Word says "every knee shall bow" and "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus".
I don't remember how it dawned on me - likely read it - that if His 1st advent fullfilled the Spring Holy Days, then by logical extension, His long 2nd advent will fulfill the fall holy days.
...and aren't there three peaks of that advent? and three holy days..?
And by extension / speculation :laughing7: if the ten days between trumpets and day of atonement is a shadow of the millennium reign of Jesus on this earth before it is made new or is a new heavens and new earth wherein Yahweh our Father is "all in all", and before the resurrection of those not yet saved and before the GWT judgment, what are the five days between day of atonement and tabernacles a shadow of?
Look how nicely the fall holy days fit with the three peaks of our Lord's long second advent! "Trumpets" being used in the book of revelation to herald His appearing.. And then the final trumpet when he arrives and gathers His elect to Him both living and the no longer living saints/believers. And the ushering in/arrival of His millennial rule.
Ten days after Israel's ancient day of trumpets is their most ?important annual holy day. The only day of the year when the high priest went into the holy of holies to present sacrifice for the reconciliation of all the people. "Any one not presenting themselves on that day will be cut off" ("from the people"). It was a great day of collective repentance. And reconciliation.
Five days after day of atonement is Tabernacles. (Seven days of camping! :banana: )
I love how the KJ says Rev 21:3 "behold the tabernacle of God is now with man and He will tabernacle/camp(!) with them and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and will be their God".
I believe the only record of any one going to the LOF is that one called satan, because I believe the others, in chapter 19, the beast and false prophet cast there, one I believe is an institution of man and the other a false idea and (strong) teaching, never to exist/be active again.
...and I don't believe any humans will go there, as I believe every name by end of the GWT judgment 'day', will be written in the book of Life. Which, "books" I am inclined to think of as metaphor, but of course I may be completely wrong. :smile: :smile: :girlheart:
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 05:30:34 PM
I can clearly see Eaglesway, how you perceive the lake of fire and I do agree some of what we ponder and think about judgment day is speculative beyond what is written about lives being examined.. And this may be where we differ, as I think of judgment 'day' or more accurately the GWT judgment to be a great 'day' of review, even intensive and collective review. Collectively not so much the review of individual's lives but of history and all mankind's more collective ways, doings and choices.
I agree the "books" (the word is actually scrolls) are metaphorical, but I believe they are metaphors for the secrets of mens hearts spoken of in Romans 2..."Their conscience either accusing them or excusing them on the day when God will judge the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ." To me that is highly individual, as is Romans 2 and Matthew 25,"When the son of man shall come in His glory and all the hly angels with Him and sit on His throne"... "Lord, Lord, didnt we blah blah blah"..."I was thirsty and you gave me no drink".... Depart from me into the aonian pyr prepared for the devil and His angels"
So, I have to disagree with the statement that there is no record of anyone besides the beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire. It is clearly written that of all the dead raised at the second resurrection, "anyone's name who was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". I dont think the scriptures play word games, describing a category where no category exists. Also, we see Jesus spoke of people being cast into "aionian pyr" for "aionian kolassis" and describes it as "prepared for the devil and his angels"
"6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
If Rev 19 stood alone, perhaps I could see your point, but I believe it must be viewed in context with Rom 2, Mt 25, Rev 14 and Rev 20
Also Paul speaks in 1 Cor 3 of believers being saved "but as through fire".
So, I believe the "fire" is metaphorical language for the light of God exposing and consuming darkness. It is not as literal flames of physical torment, of course.
But I fail to see the logic or integrity of Jesus warning people to beware of a fire(experience of exposure and correction) that does not exist, or John saying blessed are those who miss it- unless it is real and in some way difficult and to be avoided.
I do believe we also experience this in this life, in principle, as we walk through experience and trial and discipline. But I also read the scriptures, through Jesus, John and Paul- testifying to some form of "aionian pyr"- which I believe is what both the lake of fire and Gehenna represent metaphorically.
Highly, individual... and specific. My heart can condemn me and excuse me on the exact same thing on different days. Human consciences aren't really reliable to any ultimate degree if they wee we'd have stopped sinning long ago as we learned never to ignore them.
I certainly agree that 'those whose names were not found' describes a category it's just possible it doesn't describe a category of specific humans. Of course, later in the book we get a list of several categories none of which are peoples names but rather the types of being you'll find in the Lake of Fire. Is that the whole being or part of the being? Probably the whole but... well it's presented strangely.
But I'm not sure how much I want to talk about any of this here.
I believe the only record of any one going to the LOF (thus far, I should say) is that one called satan...
It's my belief the rest is threats and very real potential.. but I believe the potential (and threat of occurring) is death (thanatos) a second time.. rather than a process of purification.
Even as late as Revelation 21:8 - "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars their part shall be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - I simply think by that time no one will be any longer fitting in those categories.. Since I believe the 2nd death is death/nonlife plus believe "every knee shall bow".
Although.. there are times (since coming to tentmaker) I believe there is purification, as brimstone/sulphur is said to be cleansing (and believe even torment!) even if fire does bring to nothing.. And perhaps some few totally hard cases, who simply cannot bend the knee by end of judgment day', may end up there after all.. "ageduring" -
One day we will know what the lake of fire and the second death is, punishment, purification or death.. for me, I can't get past the word thanatos, and, how death and the grave are cast there.. to my mind, to perish, and no longer exist.. (same as the political beast body and the false notion/teaching/prophet/prophecy so strongly accepted/adhered to and alive/active in these 'last days')
Until then I figure we're surely, all believers, or even all U.R. believers are not going to believe all things exactly alike and all we can do is listen and try to understand one another's view (when at all feasible of course).
What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on July 28, 2016, 01:13:39 AM
What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?
CHB
I LOVE IT :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
HOW CAN
''all things ''be made by Him and though Him and for Him [ the WORD OF LIFE ] Col 1;16 John 1 ;3 Romans 11 ;36 and GOD end up being
all in ALL[SPIRIT OF LIFE ] 1 Corth 15 , IF this is not the truth :iagree:
Every hold gives up the dead ... and only GOD raises the DEAD to life again ...
27For "God has put everything under His feet." Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him.
28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
29If these things are not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?...
Baptism for the dead, vicarious baptism or proxy baptism today commonly refers to the religious practice of baptizing a person on behalf of one who is dead—a living person receiving the rite on behalf of a deceased person.
Many believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead and are gathering all into Christ now , some do not believe it at all
HE IS THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND LIVING , and WILL KEEP HIS WORD
Romans 14 ...8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9For this reason Christ died and returned to life, so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will
all stand before God's judgment seat....
Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
John 12:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if dies, it bears much fruit.
Romans 10:9
that if you
confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that
God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Philippians 2:11
and
every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.1 Thessalonians 4:14
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that
God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.1 Thessalonians 5:10
He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep,
we may live together with Him.1 Peter 4:5
But they will have to give an account to Him
who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Revelation 1:18
the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And
I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.Revelation 2:8
To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and
returned to life. From dead letters of the law that kills to the LIVING WORD OF TRUTH BY THE LIVING GOD ,WHOM IS SPIRIT AND LOVE and A CONSUMING FIRE . :dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on July 27, 2016, 10:13:10 PM
I believe the only record of any one going to the LOF (thus far, I should say) is that one called satan...
It's my belief the rest is threats and very real potential.. but I believe the potential (and threat of occurring) is death (thanatos) a second time.. rather than a process of purification.
Even as late as Revelation 21:8 - "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars their part shall be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - I simply think by that time no one will be any longer fitting in those categories.. Since I believe the 2nd death is death/nonlife plus believe "every knee shall bow".
Although.. there are times (since coming to tentmaker) I believe there is purification, as brimstone/sulphur is said to be cleansing (and believe even torment!) even if fire does bring to nothing.. And perhaps some few totally hard cases, who simply cannot bend the knee by end of judgment day', may end up there after all.. "ageduring" -
One day we will know what the lake of fire and the second death is, punishment, purification or death.. for me, I can't get past the word thanatos, and, how death and the grave are cast there.. to my mind, to perish, and no longer exist.. (same as the political beast body and the false notion/teaching/prophet/prophecy so strongly accepted/adhered to and alive/active in these 'last days')
Until then I figure we're surely, all believers, or even all U.R. believers are not going to believe all things exactly alike and all we can do is listen and try to understand one another's view (when at all feasible of course).
Quote from: CHB on July 28, 2016, 01:13:39 AM
What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?
CHB
It's entirely by suggestion but it's a strong suggestion: 'And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Rev. 20:13-15)
The context seems to be referring to Death, Hades and people who are under judgement, not Satan and the Beasts who went in earlier.
But I believe the process could well eradicate much of those eight category groups. To be honest I'm not entirely sure if the category group descriptions are current or historic. The latter seems more likely, people who occupied some of those category groups during their mortal lives rather than people who refuse to leave them in the narrative present. After all they might struggle to continue in those groups after the judgement.
Awesome verses Rose! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
One thought which was running through my mind while reading, how He has authority over both the living and also the dead. Is there any limit to His reach on this? And I am thinking of the literally dead, who have ceased this life, no longer breathing, and not what's called dead while living/standing-the condition of us all before our faith in Jesus, when we were still, without hindrance headed toward, in my opinion, extinction.
(I believe any thing outside of God's will leads to death, extinction. And if not for God's great plan of salvation, that is where we would go... "a rod of iron which cannot be broken" and something which simply must be learned? Called understanding "good from evil". Only the good, the perfect, the pure - including 100% true - can endure.
I believe there are things hidden (and good reason for allowing the hell myth). If I were an evil despot who rose to power over other's lives and spent my life not only selfishly gratifying every want and whim, but spent it oppressing, torturing, raping, and killing others, when I first stand in front of God's Holy Throne, I don't deserve to know there's light at the end of the tunnel! Imo of course.:smile:
"Vengeance is mine, saith the LORD."
But thanks be to God, He does reveal things to His own.
How blessed we are to know in the 'end' He (Perfection) loses nothing. And most certainly :laughing7: makes no mistakes.
:girlheart: :cloud9:
Quote from: CHB on July 28, 2016, 01:13:39 AM
What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?
CHB
That's the very thing I've been wondering.. Since I think of the 2nd death as extinction, and Satan as a rebel angel, a living creature, with thought etc, and since God's Word says "
all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus"... I know there's the thought that Satan is not alive, not a living creature, but just yesterday evening, coming up in my readings was "we wrestle
not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take to you the whole armor of God." (Eph 6)
... if the principalities were merely forces or metaphor for the ability of humans to wander off and also to do evil, then wouldn't that make the Christian's warfare to be against flesh and blood?
But since - like the verses Rose posted, Jesus has authority over all who have ceased to live/ are dead, can there be any limit to this? Even from extinction, if God wills, one can be brought back..?
The others, the beast and false prophet, I do not believe are individuals as is most commonly thought and taught.
The beast.. which beast? As there are two (rev 13). Since I don't believe it to be an individual, I think this one is referring to the first beast of rev 13, the one with seven heads and ten horns w/ crowns, the 7th head having expired but come back.. Surely this beast is some sort of empire or governing.. (In bible language, ruling.)
In Revelation 19, when it says the beast and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, the 2nd death, the Greek word rendered alive is "zao" - " to live, literally or figuratively" including "active".
..the ('big') beast (13:1-10) an institution of man active at the time of Jesus' return? but never to rise again..
And the false prophet i (simply have to) believe is that false teacher/teaching so strongly and erroneously held by so many in these latter days, and which has turned western civilization/Christendom on its ear and is causing and has caused a great falling away in the culture, from the faith. A very strong delusion. (In strength on a par with the hell myth?) An absurd teaching never to be active/alive again..
:iagree: :thumbsup: How can names not be written in the book of
life beyond this age? If all will live? All bend the knee.. And He be "all in all"..
QuoteCST
"All were judged by what they had done, then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire"
..."all were judged..
then death and hades / death and the grave are thrown into the LOF, the 2nd death" ("
and anyone found whose name is not in the book of life (believing?) will go to the LOF/2nd death"
"..and the last enemy to be defeated is death" - this makes me think once death is cast into the lake of fire/2nd death, all is/ has been subdued. The work is finished. (All have been reconciled/purified?)
:Chinscratch: what i'm most trying to discern right now is, will Satan be saved? :Chinscratch:
..Interesting discussion.. even if we are messing up these threads.. :o
Well, imho, it is a UR affirmation to say that all things in heaven and earth will be reconciled, inclusive of all things that were created by Him, all things that He is before, all things He is preeminent over(Col 1:15-20), so to me, the adversaries are done away with by reconciliation. They are subjected by reconciliation. By the blood of His cross. Once subjected all those adversaries will be returned to the Father that God may be all in all(1 Cor 15). Every knee shall bow(does Satan have knees :laugh:) and every tongue confess - whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, that Jesus Crist is Lord to the glory of God the Father(he certainly has a tongue :laughing7:)- so yes, I believe "the adversary" will be reconciled, and with his reconciliation death will dissolve and the grave, being empty- will be no more and the lake of fire will be the glory of God, bearing a testimony that darkness is no more, chaos is no more, rebellion is no more- All are in God- our consuming fire. God is in all, having burned up every hidden self centered act and attitude- AND NOTHING WAS LOST. EVERYTHING ABOUNDED TOWARDS HIS GLORY IN THE RESTORATION OF THE WHOLE CREATION :dsunny:
Every one redeemed from self will rejoice in the river, a voice like the rushing of many waters, 10,000s x10,000s praising God.
To me that is the message of Romans 8:18-23, Col 1:15-20, 1 Cor 15 23-28, Acts 3:21 and Rev 5:13...
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
14And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
In Eph Paul says the principalities and powers are being taught the wisdom of God though the ecclesia, as we carry the ministry of reconciliation and bear His cross- we are showing them something greater than life. The love of God that swallows death and chaos and restores love and grace.
8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord(UR Eph 1:9-11), 12in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory(see Rom 8:18).
14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
20Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
Quote from: marie glen on July 28, 2016, 03:31:56 PM
Awesome verses Rose! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
One thought which was running through my mind while reading, how He has authority over both the living and also the dead. Is there any limit to His reach on this? And I am thinking of the literally dead, who have ceased this life, no longer breathing, and not what's called dead while living/standing-the condition of us all before our faith in Jesus, when we were still, without hindrance headed toward, in my opinion, extinction.
(I believe any thing outside of God's will leads to death, extinction. And if not for God's great plan of salvation, that is where we would go... "a rod of iron which cannot be broken" and something which simply must be learned? Called understanding "good from evil". Only the good, the perfect, the pure - including 100% true - can endure.
I believe there are things hidden (and good reason for allowing the hell myth). If I were an evil despot who rose to power over other's lives and spent my life not only selfishly gratifying every want and whim, but spent it oppressing, torturing, raping, and killing others, when I first stand in front of God's Holy Throne, I don't deserve to know there's light at the end of the tunnel! Imo of course.:smile:
"Vengeance is mine, saith the LORD."
But thanks be to God, He does reveal things to His own.
How blessed we are to know in the 'end' He (Perfection) loses nothing. And most certainly :laughing7: makes no mistakes.
:girlheart: :cloud9:
I'm confident the living and the dead does mean the living and the living as dead. That what reason and this passage of Revelation suggestions. From reason, what do the dead that are dead care that their being judged and how do you punish them? From Revelation, it says Death and hades gave up the dead that were in them and it calls them dead but we tend to understand them as being in some state of resurrection. The name in the Book of Life are the names of the living, as I recall it is sometimes called, the Book of the Living. Those that are not are therefore the dead. Which doesn't bode well for anyone who's just come out of the realms of Death or Hades unless, as we keep trying to suggest, names can be added in during the judgement... but the terms of the text doesn't suggest that. It sounds more like people might somehow have ended up there that shouldn't have.
Quote from: marie glen on July 28, 2016, 04:20:21 PM
Quote from: CHB on July 28, 2016, 01:13:39 AM
What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?
CHB
That's the very thing I've been wondering.. Since I think of the 2nd death as extinction, and Satan as a rebel angel, a living creature, with thought etc, and since God's Word says "all things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus"... I know there's the thought that Satan is not alive, not a living creature, but just yesterday evening, coming up in my readings was "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take to you the whole armor of God." (Eph 6)
... if the principalities were merely forces or metaphor for the ability of humans to wander off and also to do evil, then wouldn't that make the Christian's warfare to be against flesh and blood?
But since - like the verses Rose posted, Jesus has authority over all who have ceased to live/ are dead, can there be any limit to this? Even from extinction, if God wills, one can be brought back..?
The others, the beast and false prophet, I do not believe are individuals as is most commonly thought and taught.
The beast.. which beast? As there are two (rev 13). Since I don't believe it to be an individual, I think this one is referring to the first beast of rev 13, the one with seven heads and ten horns w/ crowns, the 7th head having expired but come back.. Surely this beast is some sort of empire or governing.. (In bible language, ruling.)
In Revelation 19, when it says the beast and false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, the 2nd death, the Greek word rendered alive is "zao" - " to live, literally or figuratively" including "active".
..the ('big') beast (13:1-10) an institution of man active at the time of Jesus' return? but never to rise again..
And the false prophet i (simply have to) believe is that false teacher/teaching so strongly and erroneously held by so many in these latter days, and which has turned western civilization/Christendom on its ear and is causing and has caused a great falling away in the culture, from the faith. A very strong delusion. (In strength on a par with the hell myth?) An absurd teaching never to be active/alive again..
:iagree: :thumbsup: How can names not be written in the book of life beyond this age? If all will live? All bend the knee.. And He be "all in all"..
I'm not sure how you can see the second death as extinction either since it says the wicked trio will be tormented day and night, even if tormented is a bad translation is describes some sort of process which requires some sort of continuing existence for whatever it is the the terms 'Satan, 'beast' and 'false prophet' refer to.
Which Beast? My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the first Beast, the Beast from the Sea which has a multitude of heads and horns and is like some sort of super mutant is the one that the term 'Beast' is usually applied to. I think the the second Beast, the Beast from the Earth, is identical with the false prophet so that's the term usually used for the second Beast and so all three monsters end up in the Lake of Fire at the end of the book.
'Wouldn't that make the Christian's warfare against flesh and blood? That would depend on the limitations and boundaries of the idiom 'flesh and blood' we know so much more about how are bodies work than we did when the Bible was written, all these hormones and chemicals sloshing around making our appetites soar, our libidos shoot up our passions increase. But we also try to rationalize things try to argue with ourselves why we should or should not listen to the impulses, we are made in God's image so we can do some very create, yet wrong things with our reasoning because we are gifted with powerful imaginations. Our thoughts are neither flesh or blood, we know this from science, but that's about all we know. We don't know much about how they're formed why we think as we do, why a brain does not a mind make.
So there could easily be both a battlefield of the body and a battlefield of the mind/soul which could well be what those parts of scripture are referring to.
Quote from: marie glen on July 28, 2016, 04:38:16 PM
QuoteCST
"All were judged by what they had done, then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire"
..."all were judged.. then death and hades / death and the grave are thrown into the LOF, the 2nd death" ("and anyone found whose name is not in the book of life (believing?) will go to the LOF/2nd death"
"..and the last enemy to be defeated is death" - this makes me think once death is cast into the lake of fire/2nd death, all is/ has been subdued. The work is finished. (All have been reconciled/purified?)
:Chinscratch: what i'm most trying to discern right now is, will Satan be saved? :Chinscratch:
..Interesting discussion.. even if we are messing up these threads.. :o
Yup, you'd think so wouldn't you. And yet the bit later still at least tentatively suggests that some will meet the eight categories and end up in their for a time. That word 'if' is very promising though.
We're not messing up the thread too much, we're simply debating the qualifications of some of the affirmations we're making, which is useful because we will certainly be challenged on them from time to time.
Quote from: CST on July 28, 2016, 06:36:12 PM
I'm confident the living and the dead does mean the living and the living as dead. That what reason and this passage of Revelation suggestions. From reason, what do the dead that are dead care that their being judged and how do you punish them? From Revelation, it says Death and hades gave up the dead that were in them and it calls them dead but we tend to understand them as being in some state of resurrection. The name in the Book of Life are the names of the living, as I recall it is sometimes called, the Book of the Living.
When I read this it sounds like "death and the grave give up the dead.. in earth and sea.. " There's the verse in the chapter which says "this is the 2nd resurrection".
(I think) Life (Yahweh) is so vital, so alive.. that humanity has been easily led to believe there is not death. "Hath God really said...? Surely.. you won't.. ..die?"
All over the world this is thought to be true, that the 'soul' (essence) lives on after death in another form of 'life'...
(Believers of course will not be hurt by death. Hooray!)
But I think our heavenly Father (of love) has done everything He can (in a manner of speaking) to show us that death is real. Very real. And we may not be convinced of death now. But we will be. (imo)
This morning during reading time, strangely i felt very strongly I was supposed to read on a little bit in a James Rollins novel i've been reading. What I read was the coming upon the scene of a massacre and the bodies had been thrown into a pile. The first evidence of it being an odor.. (Am i trying to gross out? no.)
I was strongly struck with this notion. 'Yahweh has done every thing He can - to convince that death is real.' (Very real.)
Cancer, for instance, is death..
Death stalks us.. (I only bring it up to express my point.)
There can be no life apart from Him. "Every knee shall bend.. every tongue confess.." He is God.. We are nothing (essentially. And in a manner of speaking.)
- He is all. Apart from Him there can be nothing.
So, in a sense :Chinscratch: death is some sort of state.. hades.. suspended animation..?
That's why I thought of the lake of fire - the 2nd death - as true death. Ceasing to be, and never to be again. A very real possibility for every single one of us,
if not for His Saving Grace.
The definite destination and 'destiny' for each and every one of us.
But, instead, all saved by His Great Plan of Salvation. :banana:
Quote from: CST on July 28, 2016, 06:36:12 PM
What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?
I'm not sure how you can see the second death as extinction either since it says the wicked trio will be tormented day and night, even if tormented is a bad translation is describes some sort of process which requires some sort of continuing existence for whatever it is the the terms 'Satan, 'beast' and 'false prophet' refer to.
Which Beast? My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the first Beast, the Beast from the Sea which has a multitude of heads and horns and is like some sort of super mutant is the one that the term 'Beast' is usually applied to. I think the the second Beast, the Beast from the Earth, is identical with the false prophet so that's the term usually used for the second Beast and so all three monsters end up in the Lake of Fire at the end of the book.
So there could easily be both a battlefield of the body and a battlefield of the mind/soul which could well be what those parts of scripture are referring to.
"All were judged by what they had done, then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire"
We're not messing up the thread too much, we're simply debating the qualifications of some of the affirmations we're making, which is useful because we will certainly be challenged on them from time to time.
I like your description - " the Beast from the Sea which has a multitude of heads and horns and is like some sort of super mutant" :laughing7:
I think of it as not an entity, but a symbol made up of symbols representing world empires of mankind, and it's this sort of thing I believe powers and principalities get involved with.. make use of.. using the greeds, hunger for power etc of humans.. or even, good intentions of humans.. center a lot of earthly power and reach.. authority-("breath"? vs 13:15, not literally, breath). Then later in the chapter is another 'beast' this one, seeming not as 'large?', but somehow seems like they morph almost into one. Verse 13:13, i believe (very strongly) to be very revealing, having occurred in 1945. (Surely?) So pinpoints an office... (involved in all these 'last days' things, which, again, turn out to be abuses. In a world or reality of all little gods, all determining our own right and wrong, etc, etc.. this is what you have.. oppressions, etc. As all a bunch of little "selves" are 'ruling'. It's chaos. It's death. Etc. Etc.) I know lots of folks believe the false prophet is the 2nd beast of chapter 13, but I don't.. when i prayed to understand the bk of rev the first thing which occurred to me after that was "what are the strongest forces at work upon humanity in the world today?" (not, yesterday.) Then i thought theory of evolution, (as)strong delusion, (as)false prophet, causing the great falling away of western civilization from christendom).. it "went before" much of the rest of the book.. cleared the way..
(surely? :dontknow: ) He will reveal all to His own.. (those who have ears let them listen?)
:Peace2: :gsmile:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 28, 2016, 06:32:58 PM
Well, imho, it is a UR affirmation to say that all things in heaven and earth will be reconciled, inclusive of all things that were created by Him, all things that He is before, all things He is preeminent over(Col 1:15-20), so to me, the adversaries are done away with by reconciliation. They are subjected by reconciliation. By the blood of His cross. Once subjected all those adversaries will be returned to the Father that God may be all in all(1 Cor 15). Every knee shall bow(does Satan have knees :laugh:) and every tongue confess - whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, that Jesus Crist is Lord to the glory of God the Father(he certainly has a tongue :laughing7:)- so yes, I believe "the adversary" will be reconciled, and with his reconciliation death will dissolve and the grave, being empty- will be no more and the lake of fire will be the glory of God, bearing a testimony that darkness is no more, chaos is no more, rebellion is no more- All are in God- our consuming fire. God is in all, having burned up every hidden self centered act and attitude- AND NOTHING WAS LOST. EVERYTHING ABOUNDED TOWARDS HIS GLORY IN THE RESTORATION OF THE WHOLE CREATION :dsunny:
Every one redeemed from self will rejoice in the river, a voice like the rushing of many waters, 10,000s x10,000s praising God.
To me that is the message of Romans 8:18-23, Col 1:15-20, 1 Cor 15 23-28, Acts 3:21 and Rev 5:13...
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
14And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
In Eph Paul says the principalities and powers are being taught the wisdom of God though the ecclesia, as we carry the ministry of reconciliation and bear His cross- we are showing them something greater than life. The love of God that swallows death and chaos and restores love and grace.
8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord(UR Eph 1:9-11), 12in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory(see Rom 8:18).
14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
20Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
:cloud9: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen!!
Quote from: marie glen on August 29, 2016, 07:18:30 PM
Quote from: CST on July 28, 2016, 06:36:12 PM
I'm confident the living and the dead does mean the living and the living as dead. That what reason and this passage of Revelation suggestions. From reason, what do the dead that are dead care that their being judged and how do you punish them? From Revelation, it says Death and hades gave up the dead that were in them and it calls them dead but we tend to understand them as being in some state of resurrection. The name in the Book of Life are the names of the living, as I recall it is sometimes called, the Book of the Living.
When I read this it sounds like "death and the grave give up the dead.. in earth and sea.. " There's the verse in the chapter which says "this is the 2nd resurrection".
(I think) Life (Yahweh) is so vital, so alive.. that humanity has been easily led to believe there is not death. "Hath God really said...? Surely.. you won't.. ..die?"
All over the world this is thought to be true, that the 'soul' (essence) lives on after death in another form of 'life'...
(Believers of course will not be hurt by death. Hooray!)
But I think our heavenly Father (of love) has done everything He can (in a manner of speaking) to show us that death is real. Very real. And we may not be convinced of death now. But we will be. (imo)
This morning during reading time, strangely i felt very strongly I was supposed to read on a little bit in a James Rollins novel i've been reading. What I read was the coming upon the scene of a massacre and the bodies had been thrown into a pile. The first evidence of it being an odor.. (Am i trying to gross out? no.)
I was strongly struck with this notion. 'Yahweh has done every thing He can - to convince that death is real.' (Very real.)
Cancer, for instance, is death..
Death stalks us.. (I only bring it up to express my point.)
There can be no life apart from Him. "Every knee shall bend.. every tongue confess.." He is God.. We are nothing (essentially. And in a manner of speaking.)
- He is all. Apart from Him there can be nothing.
So, in a sense :Chinscratch: death is some sort of state.. hades.. suspended animation..?
That's why I thought of the lake of fire - the 2nd death - as true death. Ceasing to be, and never to be again. A very real possibility for every single one of us, if not for His Saving Grace. The definite destination and 'destiny' for each and every one of us.
But, instead, all saved by His Great Plan of Salvation. :banana:
Quote from: CST on July 28, 2016, 06:36:12 PM
What if the Beast, false prophet, and Satan are the only names not written in the book of life?
I'm not sure how you can see the second death as extinction either since it says the wicked trio will be tormented day and night, even if tormented is a bad translation is describes some sort of process which requires some sort of continuing existence for whatever it is the the terms 'Satan, 'beast' and 'false prophet' refer to.
Which Beast? My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the first Beast, the Beast from the Sea which has a multitude of heads and horns and is like some sort of super mutant is the one that the term 'Beast' is usually applied to. I think the the second Beast, the Beast from the Earth, is identical with the false prophet so that's the term usually used for the second Beast and so all three monsters end up in the Lake of Fire at the end of the book.
So there could easily be both a battlefield of the body and a battlefield of the mind/soul which could well be what those parts of scripture are referring to.
"All were judged by what they had done, then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire"
We're not messing up the thread too much, we're simply debating the qualifications of some of the affirmations we're making, which is useful because we will certainly be challenged on them from time to time.
I like your description - " the Beast from the Sea which has a multitude of heads and horns and is like some sort of super mutant" :laughing7:
I think of it as not an entity, but a symbol made up of symbols representing world empires of mankind, and it's this sort of thing I believe powers and principalities get involved with.. make use of.. using the greeds, hunger for power etc of humans.. or even, good intentions of humans.. center a lot of earthly power and reach.. authority-("breath"? vs 13:15, not literally, breath). Then later in the chapter is another 'beast' this one, seeming not as 'large?', but somehow seems like they morph almost into one. Verse 13:13, i believe (very strongly) to be very revealing, having occurred in 1945. (Surely?) So pinpoints an office... (involved in all these 'last days' things, which, again, turn out to be abuses. In a world or reality of all little gods, all determining our own right and wrong, etc, etc.. this is what you have.. oppressions, etc. As all a bunch of little "selves" are 'ruling'. It's chaos. It's death. Etc. Etc.) I know lots of folks believe the false prophet is the 2nd beast of chapter 13, but I don't.. when i prayed to understand the bk of rev the first thing which occurred to me after that was "what are the strongest forces at work upon humanity in the world today?" (not, yesterday.) Then i thought theory of evolution, (as)strong delusion, (as)false prophet, causing the great falling away of western civilization from christendom).. it "went before" much of the rest of the book.. cleared the way..
(surely? :dontknow: ) He will reveal all to His own.. (those who have ears let them listen?)
:Peace2: :gsmile:
Obviously the fact that Yahweh is identical with life force is not the point. It's perfectly true of course and always at issue in some way but the serpent didn't say 'you shall not surely die, just do get Eve and thus her children to deny death. The world today is full of people who accept the reality of 'death' easily enough by the fact the deny God, of course they do see that death as being identical with annihilation effectively. At some point we all die and then just cease to exist: there is no god to save us. The serpents lie was to confuse Eve and make her doubt God and what he had told Adam and the instruction He had given they. That is Satan's primary aim, to set people against God. Either by disbelief in His existence, or incredulity at His actions (or lack of).
The Beast is definitely a symbol. I can't remember why I thought the false prophet equals the Beast from the Earth, I thought I'd read the Revelation basically said so but I may have misunderstood.
Evolution is not untrue although some of its applications maybe and if it is set against the existence of God as proof He's not there that's obviously a bad application. But it's a bad reading of the Bible if you dismiss evolution out of hand, the Bible says that on the seventh day God ceased from all work of creation. The general belief of creationist is that God created all creatures that exist in that six day period and then closed the door on any further creatures on the seventh. But there are new animals, we create the ourselves all the time from the templates in the world and the processes God but in it and one of those processes is some from of evolution. Though it may not be exactly as Darwin described it. Or indeed many of those who are supposed to have taken his work further.
The serpent said, essentially "God lied", God is only witholdong good from you so, "God cannot be trusted".
God said, "If you eat...you will die".
They ate. Did they die?
According to some definitions of death- No they didnt. At least not for hundreds of years or so.
But according to another definition of death, they DID die.
Eph 2:1As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience....
Rom 8:5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God's Law, nor can it do so....
According to these definitions there is a death men walk in before their bodies actally expire, and according to Paul, some who have been made alive have fallen back into death...
Eph 5:13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for everything that is illuminated becomes a light itself. 14So it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, and Christ will shine on you." 15Pay careful attention, then, to how you walk, not as unwise but as wise,...
1 Thess 5:5 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober....
The darkness is death. The mind set on the flesh is death. The sleeper who has forgotten the day is walking in death, "dead even as he lives".
It is hard to confine the wisdom of God to tight definitions of words and highlighting certain verses out of context with others as if to separate body parts of an understanding apart from each other when they are one. This is the dilemna of a spiritually illuminated understanding of the scriptures.
The dead see nothing. They know nothing. All is vanity. All is smoke and mirrors to the mind set on the flesh.
The one who believes that Jesus is the son of God has passed from death unto life- a child of the day unafraid of death or darkness, but will his/her body die?
Most likely yes... LOL
If they endure to the end, walking in the light- what will be their reward? Good question :o)
If they do not, have they anything to fear? Another good question..... The writer of Hebrews seems to think so.
"See to it that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if the people did not escape when they refused Him who warned them on earth, how much less will we escape if we reject Him who warns us from heaven? "
"I hav determined to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit will be saved in the day..."
But whatever the case, we have precious encouragement that all will finally awaken into the day...
At that time His voice shook the earth, but now He has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth, but heaven as well." 27The words, "Once more," signify the removal of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that the unshakable may remain.
God shakes the living and the dead untill all that remains is that which cannot be shaken- life, love and light.
"No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."
I think the chaos(tohu and bohu) of disobedience and death is the ground into which the seed(logos) of righteousness is sown(let there be light). So whatever the second death represents, those who are sown into it will emerge from it trained and reaping a harvest of righteousness, children of the day.
:HeartThrob:
AMEN
Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2016, 01:41:45 AM
The serpent said, essentially "God lied", God is only witholdong good from you so, "God cannot be trusted".
Yes, this! I'm not quite sure how the rest of what you're saying here fits in to what I was saying. I certainly hold that second point on the ambiguity over what 'death' actually means here is important to the understanding of the story, the serpent is 'subtil' It not particularly subtil or crafty just to state something that is not the truth. The idea the the serpent, which is presented throughout the story as a member of God's currently non-fallen creation, is able to audaciously lie, a sin, prior to the fall of creation's head, as depicted here, is a little hard to take. I can buy the subtil, crafty serpent being, what we something refer to as, economical with the truth. A direct lie from a member of a non-fallen creation makes rather less sense.
Has anyone ever considered that the Adam (male/mind) that died was the "mind of ignorance" (he not knowing the Father[He being the mind of Christ]) and the Eve (female/heart) that died was the "heart of non-compassion/non-forgiveness" (she not knowing the Son[He being the heart of the Father])
and that the 1st (part of) death is for those two to die in us (old mind/old heart)so that the 2nd (part of) death is the bringing to life the "mind of wisdom" and the "heart of compassion/forgiveness" which is equal to resurrection?
To lay down ones soul to be picked back up again.
That all physical examples are manifestations of what takes place in us spiritually, dive into the abyss (the great gulf fixed) for in doing so He changes your perspective of what you thought it was into what it truly is, HIS HOLY SPIRIT
altho i dont believe God tortures people forever in hell I do still believe those who have idols in this life and dont put JESUS first, they suffer some kind of 'eternal loss', though they are ultimately redeemed...still, it IS essential what we do here, in terms of eternity.
Quote from: jugghead on September 14, 2016, 01:55:16 AM
Has anyone ever considered that the Adam (male/mind) that died was the "mind of ignorance" (he not knowing the Father[He being the mind of Christ]) and the Eve (female/heart) that died was the "heart of non-compassion/non-forgiveness" (she not knowing the Son[He being the heart of the Father])
and that the 1st (part of) death is for those two to die in us (old mind/old heart)so that the 2nd (part of) death is the bringing to life the "mind of wisdom" and the "heart of compassion/forgiveness" which is equal to resurrection?
To lay down ones soul to be picked back up again.
That all physical examples are manifestations of what takes place in us spiritually, dive into the abyss (the great gulf fixed) for in doing so He changes your perspective of what you thought it was into what it truly is, HIS HOLY SPIRIT
Hi Jugg ,
Its good to see you posting again :thumbsup: Thanks for the thoughts to be considered bro!
I have considered in the beginning [Gen 1] God said let Us make them in OUR image male and female and called them Adam an image and likeness and they were to be fruitful and multiply on the 6th day .
This being and inward working and spiritual , because the mankind was not formed of the dust of the earth till Gen 2 and breathed the breath of life in his nostrils and made a living creature and she was still hidden within him till the day God put Adam in a deep sleep to bring her out for his help meet .
and this, what God has joined together let no man divide or separate .
I have considered this is exactly what mankind does outwardly showing divisions ?
I do see there are two types the natural and the spiritual man warring against each other maybe ? by scriptures the inward man[being renewed day by day the sons of God and the outward man [is perishing ] sons of man also by the scriptures ...
2Cor Treasures in Jars of Clay
(Romans 6:1-14)
7And we have this treasure in earthen vessels,
that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us;
8on every side being in tribulation, but not straitened; perplexed, but not in despair;
9persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10
at all times the dying of the Lord Jesus bearing about in the body, that the life also of Jesus in our body may be manifested,
11for always are we who are living delivered up to death because of Jesus,
that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our dying flesh,
12so that, the death indeed in us doth work, and the life in you.
13And having the same spirit of the faith, according to that which hath been written, 'I believed, therefore I did speak;'
we also do believe, therefore also do we speak;
14knowing that He who did raise up the Lord Jesus,
us also through Jesus shall raise up, and shall present with you,
15for the all things [are] because of you,
that the grace having been multiplied, because of the thanksgiving of the more, may abound to the glory of God;
16 wherefore, we faint not, but if also our outward man doth decay, yet the inward is renewed day by day;
17for the momentary light matter of our tribulation, more and more exceedingly an age-during weight of glory doth work out for us —
18we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen [are] temporary, but the things not seen [are] age-during. As the spiritual sons of God do come up out of death /corruption By the incorruptible Word of God and Spirit of God working in them mightily.
God bless you and all in His love and amazing grace :HeartThrob:
Quote from: darryl on September 14, 2016, 03:26:48 AM
altho i dont believe God tortures people forever in hell I do still believe those who have idols in this life and dont put JESUS first, they suffer some kind of 'eternal loss'...so it IS essential what we do here, in terms of eternity.
Yes , so do I Darryl ! God bless you always :icon_flower: Babylon is falling this is the spiritual warfare spoken of in scriptures to me ,
1. "Submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." James 4:7
2. "You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world." 1 John 4:4
3. "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and
we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." 2 Cor. 10:3-5
4. "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith." 1 Pet. 5:8-9
5. "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; and every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their vindication is from Me," declares the Lord." Is. 54:17
6. "Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood,
but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Eph. 6:11-17
7. "In all these things, we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." Rom. 8:37
8. "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 15:57
9. "
Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the Lord of hosts." Zech. 4:6 !!!!!!!!
10. "But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one." 2 Thess. 3:3
11. "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and
over all the power of the enemy, and
nothing shall hurt you." Luke 10:19
12. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly." John 10:10
13. "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly I tell you that if two
of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven." Matt. 18:18-19
14. "The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before you. They shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways." Deut. 28:7
15. "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33
16. "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." 1 Cor. 10:13
17. "And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32
18. "Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom. 12:21
19. "And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death." Rev.12:11
20. "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." 1 Tim. 6:12
21. ",,,On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt. 16:18
22. "...the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work." 1 John 3:8
23. "But they who wait for the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint." Is. 40:31
24. "One of your men puts to flight a thousand, for the Lord your God is He who fights for you, just as He promised you." Josh. 23:10
25. "Do not fear them, for the Lord your God is the one fighting for you." Deut. 3:22
26. "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom. 8:31
27. "Through You we will push back our adversaries, through Your name we will trample down those who rise up against us." Ps. 44:5
28. "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous! Do not tremble or be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go." Josh. 1:9
29. "For You have girded me with strength for battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me." Ps. 18:39
30. "He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust. Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart..." Ps. 91:1-4
31. "This is what the Lord says to you: 'Do not be afraid or discouraged because of this vast army. For the battle is not yours, but God's." 2 Chron. 20:15
Some encouraging and strengthening scriptures about battling spiritual warfare
I know salvation there is no name under heaven by which you must be saved but Jesus Christ ..
But in heaven there is the WORD OF GOD REV19 that is fighting for you !! the WORD OF GOD JUDGES IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
The Rider on the White Horse
...12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head.
He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and
His name is The Word of God.
14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses....
Quote from: rosered on September 14, 2016, 04:37:20 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 14, 2016, 03:26:48 AM
altho i dont believe God tortures people forever in hell I do still believe those who have idols in this life and dont put JESUS first, they suffer some kind of 'eternal loss'...so it IS essential what we do here, in terms of eternity.
Yes , so do I Darryl ! God bless you always :icon_flower: Babylon is falling this is the spiritual warfare spoken of in scriptures to me ,
1. "Submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." James 4:7
2. "You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world." 1 John 4:4
3. "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ." 2 Cor. 10:3-5
4. "Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith." 1 Pet. 5:8-9
5. "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; and every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their vindication is from Me," declares the Lord." Is. 54:17
6. "Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Eph. 6:11-17
7. "In all these things, we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." Rom. 8:37
8. "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 15:57
9. "Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the Lord of hosts." Zech. 4:6 !!!!!!!!
10. "But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen you and protect you from the evil one." 2 Thess. 3:3
11. "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you." Luke 10:19
12. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly." John 10:10
13. "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven." Matt. 18:18-19
14. "The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before you. They shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways." Deut. 28:7
15. "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." John 16:33
16. "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." 1 Cor. 10:13
17. "And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32
18. "Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good." Rom. 12:21
19. "And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death." Rev.12:11
20. "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." 1 Tim. 6:12
21. ",,,On this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt. 16:18
22. "...the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work." 1 John 3:8
23. "But they who wait for the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings like eagles; they shall run and not be weary; they shall walk and not faint." Is. 40:31
24. "One of your men puts to flight a thousand, for the Lord your God is He who fights for you, just as He promised you." Josh. 23:10
25. "Do not fear them, for the Lord your God is the one fighting for you." Deut. 3:22
26. "What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom. 8:31
27. "Through You we will push back our adversaries, through Your name we will trample down those who rise up against us." Ps. 44:5
28. "Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous! Do not tremble or be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go." Josh. 1:9
29. "For You have girded me with strength for battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me." Ps. 18:39
30. "He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust. Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence. He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart..." Ps. 91:1-4
31. "This is what the Lord says to you: 'Do not be afraid or discouraged because of this vast army. For the battle is not yours, but God's." 2 Chron. 20:15
Some encouraging and strengthening scriptures about battling spiritual warfare
I know salvation there is no name under heaven by which you must be saved but Jesus Christ ..
But in heaven there is the WORD OF GOD REV19 that is fighting for you !! the WORD OF GOD JUDGES IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
The Rider on the White Horse
...12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head.
He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows.
13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.
14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses....
hi, Rosered !...and thank you ! :dsunny: :banana: :thumbsup:
I believe people suffer loss now and in the future but ETERNAL loss would mean that God is never "ALL in ALL"
Just my :2c:
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2016, 03:56:54 PM
I believe people suffer loss now and in the future but ETERNAL loss would mean that God is never "ALL in ALL"
Just my :2c:
Amen to that GodIsLove , well said ! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2016, 03:56:54 PM
I believe people suffer loss now and in the future but ETERNAL loss would mean that God is never "ALL in ALL"
Just my :2c:
your 2c is priceless because it's what the Bible says.
Hang on. Have you and Rose both just abandoned all support for what you originally said because you agree what GiL points of from the Bible contradicts it? Wow, I disagreed with it too but I imagined you'd have more conviction behind it than that.
Is that not the mystery of of the ages being made known in his holy ones .. Colossians 1
...25I became its servant by the commission God gave me to fully proclaim to you the word of God,
26the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints,
27to whom God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory....
As He rules and reigns in our hearts , being the WORD OF GOD and the power of the Life giving Spirit and fighting against Babylon for you
We will Love God first and others as ourselves when He reigns supreme , the Law of God is written in our hearts
All of Romans 2 God's Righteous Judgment
...14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law,
15since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them.
16This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men's secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel....
Same 2 witnesses of the WORD AND SPIRIT of the LIVING GOD working within us will BOTH witness with our own conscience also bearing witness
knowing our thoughts and intent of the heart in every man .
Hebrews 10 Christ's Perfect Sacrifice
...15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First He says: 16"This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds." 17Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."...
Jeremiah 31:31
"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Hebrews 8:10
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.
We are His possession a holy nation
1Peter 2 The Living Stone with Gods law written in our hearts promised long ago in the law and prophets and shared with us now .
...8and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the message—and to this they were appointed.
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession,
to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God;
once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy....
What mercy HE HAS SHOWN us all !! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: CST on September 15, 2016, 05:29:08 PM
Hang on. Hang you and Rose both just abandoned all support for what you originally said because you agree what GiL points of from the Bible contradicts it? Wow, I disagreed with it too but I imagined you'd have more conviction behind it than that.
God is now destroying Babylon in us CST , When you read the Revelations as the DAY OF THE LORD and fighting for you , you will know that all pride and earthly wisdom will be cut to the core , By His Own Spirit and WORD OF GOD , the Word of God judges us all ..
How ever twisted it is being presented , by that fleeting serpent , it will be made straight and narrow and leave a shining wake behind it , the LORD IS HERE
The head and the tail removed , CUT OFF ... deut 28 The Blessings of Obedience
...12"The LORD will open for you His good storehouse, the heavens, to give rain to your land in its season and to bless all the work of your hand; and you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow. 13"The LORD will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully, 14and do not turn aside from any of the words which I command you today, to the right or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them....
the tail is the false prophets Isaiah 9 Judgment against Israel's Hypocrisy
...14So the LORD cuts off head and tail from Israel, Both palm branch and bulrush
in a single day. this being the DAY OF THE LORD working in us .... all of revelations , this revealing of Christ in you the hope of Glory will be the end of the false prophet and liars along with the beast those creatures that ruled over men's hearts for the ages and will bow down and worship the LAMB OF GOD
I tell you the truth according to the gospel that all will sing the victory song of moses and the song of the LAMB for what working HE is doing within us all .... in my most humblest of opinions and judgments , GODS PERFECT WORK will not be denied , some now bow the knee and some after , but every knee will bow and surrender under His authority and power and might and will glorify God Almighty and not be ashamed before Him , many will be ashamed of whom pierced HIM
Every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God will be fulfilled , man cannot live by bread alone , and the great dividing will bring them all low that must be brought low and ashamed and those whom God raises from the dead will be lifted up unto Himself and glorify God in the earth as it is in heaven
15The head is the elder and honorable man, And the prophet who teaches falsehood is the tail.
16For those who guide this people are leading them astray; And those who are guided by them are brought to confusion....
You are the work of His hands and powers that be you are not your own Psalms 111
Majestic are His Works
...6He has made known to His people the power of His works,
In giving them the heritage of the nations.
7The works of His hands are truth and justice;
All His precepts are sure. 8
They are upheld forever and ever; They are performed in truth and uprightness....
I know many look outwardly and never see anything and wonder why God is delaying His coming , but the truth of the matter in my opinion is they never thought to look within to SEE HIM IN POWER AND GLORY and fighting for you ....
you belong to Christ and Christ is Gods and GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL ... we can count on it 100% as sure and can be happening and good to be on HIS SIDE when the destruction comes suddenly upon you ....
GOD will cleanse His people completely with Holy Spirit and fire , He is a jealous God after all and will not give His glory to another for certain .
Using Him in name only is never going to work out for anyone ,,, Babylon will fail , you will be denied and passed over as a rejected branch ready to burn and it is the Lord whom allows the seed/ WORD OF GOD to come forth again out of the burning wake only to be grown again as a tender shoot cared for by the Fathers planting , the water[Moses song ] and fire baptisms[ the Lambs song ] both are very real ,
To those whom experience them and know what they come up out of ... We are convinced that "all things " have been given by the Lords HAND / power and are ours to experience and trust in Him and know how serious it all really is , it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD the chastening of the Lord is not some east thing to endure in the time but the results are glorious in the end , because the LOVE of God works for the good of those whom Love Him and cry out to Him for help of the HOLY SPIRIT and are called according to His purpose we do not suffer for nothing , neither did the LORD JESUS CHRIST , a student/disciple is not above his Master/ Teacher . ...
Hebrews 10 A Call to Persevere
...30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay," and again,
"The Lord will judge His people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember the early days that you were in the light, when you endured a great conflict in the face of suffering.... 33this indeed, being made a spectacle both by revilings and tribulations; now this, having become partners of those passing through them thus. 34For both you sympathized with the prisoners and you accepted the plundering of your possessions with joy, knowing yourselves to have a better and abiding possession.
35 Therefore do
not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36For you hav
e need of endurance, so that, having done the will of God,
you may receive the promise. 37For
"Yet in a very while little,
the One coming will come, and will not delay.
38But My righteous onef will live by faith;
and if he might shrink back,
My soul does not take pleasure in him."
39But we are not of those
drawing back to destruction,
but of faith to the preserving of the soul. That Life within you Lives by the same faith and Hope and Love the LORD JESUS CHRIST EXPRESSED SO WONDERFULLY in WORD AND DEED , within our own flesh To also be revealed and made known as a LIGHT that shines out of the darkness ....
simply put He is destroying Babylon in us than will the wrath of God be complete .
How many miles to Babylon?
Three score miles and ten.
Can I get their by candlelight?
Yes, there and back again. (amend as you remember)
140 miles back one candle, that's a long lasting candle.
I've now corrected the typo in my original post. Sorry for that it looked somewhat rude.
Quote from: CST on September 15, 2016, 07:48:18 PM
How many miles to Babylon?
Three score miles and ten.
Can I get their by candlelight?
Yes, there and back again. (amend as you remember)
140 miles back one candle, that's a long lasting candle.
I've now corrected the typo in my original post. Sorry for that it looked somewhat rude.
I never took offense bro , Just tried to the best of abilities as to why they could seem counter productive , but the Divisions were always separated by God
in the beginning [Gen 1] , what is below is from below and may rise, lifted up in pride , but will fail utterly , and what is from above Which is love always rises and takes up what is of its own with Him Christ says "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."[drawing all by the work of the Holy Spirit and Word of Truth ] , in my own opinion
But the process is not as easily done as it is said . because with man what is not possible , it is possible with God , when we begin to love Him first and foremost in our lives , God being the source of all power and authority and that Love expressed though JESUS CHRIST / The Word of God made flesh and than in our flesh the Spirit rises by the power of the WORD working in you .
The Lord can remove the candle out of its place .. [Rev 2 .5 verse To the Church in Ephesus/permitted
...4But I have this against you:
You have abandoned your first love. 5Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen
. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent,
I will come to you and remove your lampstand/candle from its place. 6But you have this to your credit: You hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate....
But is patient towards us knowing this, a smoking wick he will not put out Matt 12 God's Chosen Servant
...19He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear His voice in the streets.
20A bruised reed He will not break,
and a smoldering wick He will not extinguish,
till He leads justice to victory. 21In His name
the nations will put their hope."...
The scriptures are beautifully placed and never contradict , they apply in that moment when you are experiencing them breathing within you by Holy Spirit witness and your own conscience being cleansed by His presence and are aware as more of these experiences are given as you begin to grow in truth and grace , we are deceiving our own hearts if we think we know and will find out we do not know these things as we ought .
The confusion will come by mixing what is from above and what is below and that is how Babylon is formed in us
The Wisdom from ABOVE will destroy the earthly wisdom from below , by the power of His coming in you and with His breath ,
When Jesus breathed on those to receive the HOLY SPIRIT they tasted the power of the things to come that binding and loosing of the heavens and earth
Paul exercised that power by turning some over to the adversary /Destroyer for the destruction of their flesh so in the DAY OF THE LORD their Spirit would be saved 1COR 5 [suffering loss ] as described in what one builds upon wood hay and stubble or gold etc.. 1Cor 3 . burning up those things that are not able to stand the test , We are all tried in the fire our faith is tested big time .1 Peter 1.
John 20 Jesus Appears to the Disciples
(Luke 24:36-43; 1 John 1:1-4)
19It being, therefore, evening, on that day, the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been shut where the disciples were assembled, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith to them, 'Peace to you;'
20and this having said, he shewed them his hands and side; the disciples, therefore, rejoiced, having seen the Lord.
21Jesus, therefore, said to them again, 'Peace to you; according as the Father hath sent me, I also send you;'
22and this having said, he breathed on [them], and saith to them,
'Receive the Holy Spirit; 23if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them[forgiven ]; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.'[held accountable]
But we sure can believe we also will receive the same testing ...
I f you read all of 1 Cor 10 in its entirety ,https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+10)
we can see the examples of what not to do , those in the wilderness never come out of it , it was a 3 day journey and it was 40 years in the making
Why ?
Looking at the facts , we are not to desire evil things nor be idolaters , just play acting , not whordoms mixing with Babylon and the confusion it causes or tempt Christ as the serpents bit them , and had to be healed by Lifting up the Lord above all else , all the murmuring and complaining whom also were destroyed by the Destroyer [Rev 9] all these things we are warned against doing ourselves and Gods WORD IS TRUE , we cannot live by bread of heaven alone .. Every WORD is what comes , life and death are ours all things are ours and we are Christ and Christ is Gods own possession.
Be happy with what we have as God given and grateful , spiritually speaking and in the natural as well and helpful want others to share in this joy in the Lord and with the same hope in them , showing love and compassion and not wanting anything , but God to save us all from this present evil we are among in the world , be in it but not of it at all . that mixing is confusion and Baylons sway and trap and suffering great loss and shame .
:smile: Nice post. Or bits of it are. I'm not sure I understand all of it. I fact I'm sure I don't.
Quote from: CST on September 16, 2016, 12:32:00 PM
:smile: Nice post. Or bits of it are. I'm not sure I understand all of it. I fact I'm sure I don't.
I agree with you , these posts are all over the place ,
Most always showing the scriptures as to why these conclusions come ,
but , my gift is not writing skills and flowing words .
But I try and keep trying
One of the hardest things to do , in my opinion is express these beautiful truths that are so comforting in my own heart with others .
The greatest comfort I now have is knowing all will know the Lord and when they find out how Loved they are, they will not only be surprised , but will
realize their lack in loving Him back , and it is the inner man that is spiritual in nature that never got to develop fully into Christ ,
because the carnal nature ruled over the body , it will bring them to a humble and pitiful state of being ,
but not all , because of Jesus Christ is the love of God expressed and those fruits of the Holy Spirit are Living by the Spirit in my own opinion and what the inner man [holy one ] eats and is strengthened in their lives by becoming more like a son of God than a son of man .
Jesus Christ was both the Son of Man and the Son Of God and paved the narrow Path for us to follow after Him in.
This explains it to me very well , I am using the YLT translation here .
(Romans 8:9-11)
16And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh
ye may not complete;
This line is saying do not grow up to be a full on carnal son of man , by neglecting your inheritance as to growing in truth and grace by Gods design into a full and mature Son of God , these are spiritual and do inherit the kingdom of God and all the blessings of the many good things of the Holy Spirit .
17for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will —
these ye may not do;
The son of man inherits corruption , that is his fruit of doings and is an enemy of the Holy Spirit , making his own way and rejecting spiritual things because he does not understand them or God and has no desire for them , but wants to be his own god and go by his own rules and rule over everyone else harshly and never seeing his own need to change and always in their business , and neglecting his own business , and that would be getting right with God don't you think ?
18 and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.
He is still under the law of sin and death and that would be all he gets as his earthly inheritance .
19And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,
21envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before,
that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.
Very vile things don't you think ? They never see anything good and it shows them their own condition and it just seems to make them even more angry .
22And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23meekness, temperance: against such there is no law; 24and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires;
25if we may live in the Spirit, in the Spirit also we may walk; 26let us not become vain-glorious — one another provoking, one another envying!
This sure is the proof in other scriptures that a man reaps what he sows , those seeds of destruction in his own life and others hearts and lives also causes the pain and torment and many many sorrows as sin is rampant , God is not mocked
As we judge so shall we be judged another scripture telling the truth .
This helped me to see the man of sin is my carnal condition and great need to ask for the Holy Spirit and Gods help , deliver me out of all this corruption
I never knew just how much the tongue can cause such stings of death provoking their man of sin also and the divisions it causes and the Spirit goes silent , no where to be found at all in thee
The Spirit is the little help when we get into those bouts of carnal , animal like natures , serpents with stings or lions that roar and attack , by nature they fight with one another , bulls gouge with horns , horses buck and dogs fight tearing with their teeth the flesh of their opponent
all carnal in nature and earthly and sensual , go by instinct and devilish , they are little gods into themselves and the law of nature is to kill or be killed
either attacker or prey , they eat to satisfy their own bellies and stay hungry seeking their next meal or dominance over their opponent .
You see how that mixing of the two can never be and yet the Bible tells us Babylon is just that , kings of the earth , being mere men with high minded ideas and lofty words only to make you their next meal .
The biting and devouring on another till all die
GOD wants us to grow in truth and Grace and inherit the things of His kingdom [not of this world ] but being born again of Spirit & Life is the only way out of it
and JESUS CHRIST BEING THE WORD OF GOD IS THAT WAY ... ONLY WAY ..
My gift is not writing flowing words either, nor is it anything else. You're clearly better at it than me as your posts tend to be well received with lots of :goodpost: and :iagree: plus also 'Amen' tags after them. Mine are just a serious of statements of my position demonstrating that I must be a secret heathen.
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 07:18:52 PM
1 Samuel 14:6c(?) "Nothing can hinder YHWH from saving by many or by few."
Eventually He elected to save the many (all) the few (one). I'm surprised I don't see this more often it seems very clear in what it says and equally seems very favourable to our thinking.
How I would understand this is .... that those of the Spirit only have to hear something once, for it is then engraved on the heart and mind never to be lost again
As to previous posts, I understand it in this way,
starting out as a servant to the law, entering into darkness/wilderness (not knowing anything about the Father or Son) we can be a servant and still not be a son
but once a son always a son ... and a son is both a son and a servant ... but a son of and servant to love (from above) not the law (from below) (yes, the law is from God but rules from below)
law (the lesser light) rules in darkness (not knowing/ignorance of love/truth)
Love/Grace (the greater light) rules in light (knowing love/truth)
Quote from: jugghead on September 16, 2016, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 07:18:52 PM
1 Samuel 14:6c(?) "Nothing can hinder YHWH from saving by many or by few."
Eventually He elected to save the many (all) the few (one). I'm surprised I don't see this more often it seems very clear in what it says and equally seems very favourable to our thinking.
How I would understand this is .... that those of the Spirit only have to hear something once, for it is then engraved on the heart and mind never to be lost again
:smile: Thanks, although I'd be more confident about that if it were my common experience of reading the Bible. But it's not. That jumped out at me straight away. Most other things have taken a lot of thinking about and are rejected by other people on this site some of whom must also be 'of the Spirit'. Other ideas I've had but subsequently abandoned or forgotten.
Quote from: CST on September 16, 2016, 06:56:25 PM
My gift is not writing flowing words either, nor is it anything else. You're clearly better at it than me as your posts tend to be well received with lots of :goodpost: and :iagree: plus also 'Amen' tags after them. Mine are just a serious of statements of my position demonstrating that I must be a secret heathen.
Now Chris , lol , not at all you are a heathen , they are agreeing with the Spirit , I believe the secret man of the heart is agreeing with the Holy Spirit and our needs to be met , ONE SPIRIT we can all agree with it is the SPIRIT of Truth after all ..
scripture tells us , the Spirit groans within us, not knowing what to to pray , but intercedes for us , as our carnal nature is never knowing what is going on within , because it is the LORD looking and searching in our hearts without words ... How wonderful is that !!
Romans 8 And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses;
for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us, we have not known,
but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable, Quote from: jugghead on September 16, 2016, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 07:18:52 PM
1 Samuel 14:6c(?) "Nothing can hinder YHWH from saving by many or by few."
Eventually He elected to save the many (all) the few (one). I'm surprised I don't see this more often it seems very clear in what it says and equally seems very favourable to our thinking.
How I would understand this is .... that those of the Spirit only have to hear something once, for it is then engraved on the heart and mind never to be lost again
Amen driving out those evil spirits being touched by the finger of God surly the kingdom of God has come upon you ,,, written law on our hearts , Jer 31 "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. .... law shall be written in their hearts by
the finger of the Spirit, as formerly written in the tables of stone.
I sure have considered the inner man and outer man war against each other often . making Gal 4 more real to me , as being the Issac[child of promise ] spiritual son is being persecuted by that ishmael carnal son we are also , we are to cast out and realize we are Gods children and are loved and to Honor our Father by being the good children He is raising up ...
English Revised Version
But if I by the finger of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
Webster's Bible Translation
But if I with the finger of God cast out demons, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Weymouth New Testament
But if it is by the power of God that I drive out the demons, it is evident that the Kingdom of God has come upon you.
World English Bible
But if I by the finger of God cast out demons, then the Kingdom of God has come to you.
Young's Literal Translation
but if by the finger of God I cast forth the demons, then come unawares upon you did the reign of God.
A few translations of Jesus cleansing the temple , which you are , and making a place for them to dwell in your heart the WORD AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH ...
Quote from: jugghead on September 16, 2016, 07:37:43 PM
As to previous posts, I understand it in this way,
starting out as a servant to the law, entering into darkness/wilderness (not knowing anything about the Father or Son) we can be a servant and still not be a son
but once a son always a son ... and a son is both a son and a servant ... but a son of and servant to love (from above) not the law (from below) (yes, the law is from God but rules from below)
law (the lesser light) rules in darkness (not knowing/ignorance of love/truth)
Love/Grace (the greater light) rules in light (knowing love/truth)
:dsunny: Lovely thoughts!! :iagree:
Quote from: rosered on September 16, 2016, 08:00:33 PM
Quote from: CST on September 16, 2016, 06:56:25 PM
My gift is not writing flowing words either, nor is it anything else. You're clearly better at it than me as your posts tend to be well received with lots of :goodpost: and :iagree: plus also 'Amen' tags after them. Mine are just a serious of statements of my position demonstrating that I must be a secret heathen.
Now Chris , lol , not at all you are a heathen , they are agreeing with the Spirit , I believe the secret man of the heart is agreeing with the Holy Spirit and our needs to be met , ONE SPIRIT we can all agree with it is the SPIRIT of Truth after all ..
scripture tells us , the Spirit groans within us, not knowing what to to pray , but intercedes for us , as our carnal nature is never knowing what is going on within , because it is the LORD looking and searching in our hearts without words ... How wonderful is that !!
Romans 8 And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses;
for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us, we have not known,
but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable,
Wish I had your confidence. At the moment God isn't even listening to the groans I do utter. Jesus says ask and you shall receive. He also told that strange story about the injust judge. Keep asking and you'll not received. I've kept asking and just discovered I'm not going to receive. The Bible also says God don't hear the prayers of sinners. I must be a sinner and thus must be a heathen. :upset::bsad:
QuoteWish I had your confidence. At the moment God isn't even listening to the groans I do utter. Jesus says ask and you shall receive. He also told that strange story about the injust judge. Keep asking and you'll not received. I've kept asking and just discovered I'm not going to receive. The Bible also says God don't hear the prayers of sinners. I must be a sinner and thus must be a heathen. :upset::bsad:
Chris , You know that we have to believe in faith to be answered , as we all do . I am so glad you are reading those Words of Christ , maybe we are asking a miss ?, God knows better for us than we do .
You know many here pray for one another , It is just the right thing to do .
I do not know how you can come to that conclusion that you are not going to receive your prayer request .
SOME times God is silent , I also had to learn that , sometimes no is Gods answer , when we considered the Lord and Look at Jesus asking the Father if f the ''cup of wrath'' could pass over Him and he went and tasted death for every man , Jesus said not my will be done but yours be done .
Jesus went to the cross and endured it knowing the glory that was to come , by trusting the Father to raise Him up in that same glory He had before the world began , but Him becoming the Lord of all things [Head authority ] was set in place for the new covenant to begin making all things new [Hebrews] 9
Just have this amazing confidence in God whom wants what is best for you Chris and wait on Him to do the living works in you [ precious things ] , don't go and do your dead works [wood hay stubble] a head of the Lord , this always results in disappointment
I know by experience and had to learn the hard way , many times to ''rest in hope '' in total trust and wait on Him from the bigger messes I had made worse by running ahead and stumbling and only hurting others and myself unnecessarily in tears and repentance .
God bless your heart hon .
I know that is not easy to do , and yet it says it will be worth it . Than you will know
Quote from: rosered on September 17, 2016, 05:32:05 PM
QuoteWish I had your confidence. At the moment God isn't even listening to the groans I do utter. Jesus says ask and you shall receive. He also told that strange story about the injust judge. Keep asking and you'll not received. I've kept asking and just discovered I'm not going to receive. The Bible also says God don't hear the prayers of sinners. I must be a sinner and thus must be a heathen. :upset::bsad:
Chris , You know that we have to believe in faith to be answered , as we all do . I am so glad you are reading those Words of Christ , maybe we are asking a miss ?, God knows better for us than we do .
You know many here pray for one another , It is just the right thing to do .
I do not know how you can come to that conclusion that you are not going to receive your prayer request .
SOME times God is silent , I also had to learn that , sometimes no is Gods answer , when we considered the Lord and Look at Jesus asking the Father if f the "cup of wrath" could pass over Him and he went and tasted death for every man , Jesus said not my will be done but yours be done .
Jesus went to the cross and endured it knowing the glory that was to come , by trusting the Father to raise Him up in that same glory He had before the world began , but Him becoming the Lord of all things [Head authority ] was set in place for the new covenant to begin making all things new [Hebrews] 9
Just have this amazing confidence in God whom wants what is best for you Chris and wait on Him to do the living works in you [ precious things ] , don't go and do your dead works [wood hay stubble] a head of the Lord , this always results in disappointment
I know by experience and had to learn the hard way , many times to "rest in hope " in total trust and wait on Him from the bigger messes I had made worse by running ahead and stumbling and only hurting others and myself unnecessarily in tears and repentance .
God bless your heart hon .
I know that is not easy to do , and yet it says it will be worth it . Than you will know
Jesus says God will give you what you ask for, 'No' is not giving you what you asked for. I don't like the 'ask in faith' cop out. It felt to me like I was. At one point I reached the 'Thank you God for...' position where I think Him for responding positively to the request even though I don't know that He has yet. Pray as if you had already received. Unfortunately that feels exploitative. 'Don't put the LORD your God to the test.' Saying that you need to ask in faith just seems like some way where if God doesn't give you what you ask for someone can come along and say 'ah, well you didn't ask in faith. How do you know you weren't the one praying?
But you asked how I know I'm not going to receive my prayer request. Because it was a binary request with a physical response in the world. Yes/No. I asked for 'yes' I received 'No' this morning. Rather late as it was, it went to my former address and was lost to me for ten days when really it was very important for me to have it as soon as possible. 'Nos'of this sort ruin my life (such as it is) and make it unbearable. Leaving me in places I can't bear because other people are being evil and are allowed to continue being evil.
God's supposed to oppose evil but I and many people in my situation (or worse, I don't pretend there aren't people who get it worse than me) continue to be abused.
Don't do dead works, eh? Don't know how to do that I've found any living works in me.
Love you and your support, Rose.
QuoteJesus says God will give you what you ask for, 'No' is not giving you what you asked for. I don't like the 'ask in faith' cop out. It felt to me like I was. At one point I reached the 'Thank you God for...' position where I think Him for responding positively to the request even though I don't know that He has yet. Pray as if you had already received. Unfortunately that feels exploitative. 'Don't put the LORD your God to the test.' Saying that you need to ask in faith just seems like some way where if God doesn't give you what you ask for someone can come along and say 'ah, well you didn't ask in faith. How do you know you weren't the one praying?
But you asked how I know I'm not going to receive my prayer request. Because it was a binary request with a physical response in the world. Yes/No. I asked for 'yes' I received 'No' this morning. Rather late as it was, it went to my former address and was lost to me for ten days when really it was very important for me to have it as soon as possible. 'Nos'of this sort ruin my life (such as it is) and make it unbearable. Leaving me in places I can't bear because other people are being evil and are allowed to continue being evil.
God's supposed to oppose evil but I and many people in my situation (or worse, I don't pretend there aren't people who get it worse than me) continue to be abused.
Don't do dead works, eh? Don't know how to do that I've found any living works in me.
Love you and your support, Rose.
Dear Chris ,
He does the living works in us , this transformation , can be compared to a simple perennial seed planted in the ground ,
The seed of faith planted our earthly bodies and cannot expect a flower to bloom the next day , we can hope when all things are possible with God ,
But our work and training exercises take patience letting her have her perfect work .
This Wisdom of God knows better what we need, than we do for sure , in my own opinion and experiences.
It is not joyful to hear , but truth is like that . Not as easy to accept when you are counting it to happen just the way you want it to.
Here see if you can decide by these scriptures how being disappointed is normal , because we still desire the things of the world and things of God and the Word says you cannot serve both , two Masters you will love the one and hate the other ..
James 1:4-8 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 and let the endurance have a perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire -- in nothing lacking;
5 and if any of you do lack wisdom, let him ask from God, who is giving to all liberally, and not reproaching, and it shall be given to him;
6 and let him ask in faith, nothing doubting, for he who is doubting hath been like a wave of the sea, driven by wind and tossed,
7 for let not that man suppose that he shall receive anything from the Lord --
8 a two-souled man [is] unstable in all his ways.
Seeming to have two souls/minds carnal and spiritual mind makes both a mess of confusion ,
When you LOVE GOD with all your mind and heart and strength than everything else will fall into place .... but until than we will always be disappointed with our outcomes , I have burned many bridges over the years and some things can never be done over again , to this regret , it has always kept me humbled and not look back but keep on trying anyways to the end .
I know this is not what you want to hear , but it is what is going on in many of our lives , two steps forward and 3 steps back .
Just don't give up that hope that is still working in you ,and give up on doing good you will have great reward in the end and you will see it ..
God bless you always .
Quote from: rosered on September 17, 2016, 09:34:05 PM
QuoteJesus says God will give you what you ask for, 'No' is not giving you what you asked for. I don't like the 'ask in faith' cop out. It felt to me like I was. At one point I reached the 'Thank you God for...' position where I think Him for responding positively to the request even though I don't know that He has yet. Pray as if you had already received. Unfortunately that feels exploitative. 'Don't put the LORD your God to the test.' Saying that you need to ask in faith just seems like some way where if God doesn't give you what you ask for someone can come along and say 'ah, well you didn't ask in faith. How do you know you weren't the one praying?
But you asked how I know I'm not going to receive my prayer request. Because it was a binary request with a physical response in the world. Yes/No. I asked for 'yes' I received 'No' this morning. Rather late as it was, it went to my former address and was lost to me for ten days when really it was very important for me to have it as soon as possible. 'Nos'of this sort ruin my life (such as it is) and make it unbearable. Leaving me in places I can't bear because other people are being evil and are allowed to continue being evil.
God's supposed to oppose evil but I and many people in my situation (or worse, I don't pretend there aren't people who get it worse than me) continue to be abused.
Don't do dead works, eh? Don't know how to do that I've found any living works in me.
Love you and your support, Rose.
Dear Chris ,
He does the living works in us , this transformation , can be compared to a simple perennial seed planted in the ground ,
The seed of faith planted our earthly bodies and cannot expect a flower to bloom the next day , we can hope when all things are possible with God ,
But our work and training exercises take patience letting her have her perfect work .
This Wisdom of God knows better what we need, than we do for sure , in my own opinion and experiences.
It is not joyful to hear , but truth is like that . Not as easy to accept when you are counting it to happen just the way you want it to.
Here see if you can decide by these scriptures how being disappointed is normal , because we still desire the things of the world and things of God and the Word says you cannot serve both , two Masters you will love the one and hate the other ..
James 1:4-8 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 and let the endurance have a perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire -- in nothing lacking;
5 and if any of you do lack wisdom, let him ask from God, who is giving to all liberally, and not reproaching, and it shall be given to him;
6 and let him ask in faith, nothing doubting, for he who is doubting hath been like a wave of the sea, driven by wind and tossed,
7 for let not that man suppose that he shall receive anything from the Lord --
8 a two-souled man [is] unstable in all his ways.
Seeming to have two souls/minds carnal and spiritual mind makes both a mess of confusion ,
When you LOVE GOD with all your mind and heart and strength than everything else will fall into place .... but until than we will always be disappointed with our outcomes , I have burned many bridges over the years and some things can never be done over again , to this regret , it has always kept me humbled and not look back but keep on trying anyways to the end .
I know this is not what you want to hear , but it is what is going on in many of our lives , two steps forward and 3 steps back .
Just don't give up that hope that is still working in you ,and give up on doing good you will have great reward in the end and you will see it ..
God bless you always .
'I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' (John 10:10) My life sucks so much I consider it unreasonable to call it life by any true definition. I know that He does the living works in me but this isn't the next day, it's many days down the line and nothings happened. Hence why I'm starting to suspect He's not there in me and I am thus a heathen.
I've prayed for a lot of things over time but while God seems good at answering prayers that a good for the present things that would serve myself or others for the future He tends to be a bit quieter on. Consequently we continue to have a monstrous government that actively opposes everything Jesus stood for and bullies and abuses the poor the sick and the destitute while giving massive boons to those who really already have enough. 'If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?' (1 John 3:17) That's our government at the moment and the electorate who are voting for it. And God's just allowing it to continue. And yeah, that's my second master and yeah, I hate that master and love God but I still haven't the power to get shot of that master. I've always thought of Jesus's analogy there as strange. He was talking about God Versus Mammon, but loving God and hating Mammon doesn't seem to be an especially difficult proposition but it doesn't mean you can automatically extract yourself from service to Mammon however much you hate it.
And I've tried praying for wisdom too. There was nothing doing with that either. Too be honest I'm no longer sure who I'm supposed to be praying to anymore. There's supposed to be three persons in one being up there and I have no idea how and when I'm meant to address each one. It's really confusing for me.
It's easy to easy I'll have a great reward in the end but the more I think about it the more it sounds like it sucks. I mean if I'm supposed to have a great reward at the end what's the point of now, why don't we all just kill ourselves and be done with it? Thinking it's only going to be any good after we're dead seems a dumb idea to me.
I saw the film The World's End on Saturday and I did get a little concerned and it did an to an anxiety I already had that our 'reward' might end up being something like the aliens were trying to do in that. Which will make no sense to you if you haven't seen the film but I felt it all the same.
Thanks very much. Blessings.
CST, I'll confess to only skimming this conversation and thread.. but wanted to write a thing i learned.. it's we who have to conform to God, not God conform to us. Which of course, due to our imperfect (flawed) nature is hard for us to do.. It takes time.. When I have been submitting myself seriously to Him, and have felt I got down to the very floor of my being.. I felt the Spirit urging that now I had to start ripping up floorboards.. "Yield, yield, yield". Always, and consistently. After the good news and Father and Son, is the best thing I ever learned. The most profitable..
"The fruit of the Spirit is.." and the flip side, is all us.. He is SO patient.. for which I am SO thankful...
Also, the enemy of course is always throwing darts and spears, which stick into our flesh.. but it is the "shield of faith" (TRUST) which will cause them to fall to the ground bent and broken.. Trust of and in, Him. Also does not come naturally. And, He may not always change our circumstances.. It may be us and our attitude He changes.. We can be our own worst enemy.. I learned long ago a serious lesson that my neuron pathways - deep paths via long repetition and thought habits - had to be rerouted.. Which I guess is what being "washed by the water of the Word" is... That too takes time and yield, yield, yielding.. (And belief, of course.) "If we who are evil know how to give good gifts to our children, will He not give His Holy Spirit to those who ask.." This too can take a bit of time.. or, it can be instantaneous (I suppose) like at that first Pentecost of the church..
God bless you dear.. :gsmile:
Rosie, you're such a sweetheart!! :HeartThrob:
QuoteI am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' (John 10:10) My life sucks so much I consider it unreasonable to call it life by any true definition. I know that He does the living works in me but this isn't the next day, it's many days down the line and nothings happened. Hence why I'm starting to suspect He's not there in me and I am thus a heathen.
I've prayed for a lot of things over time but while God seems good at answering prayers that a good for the present things that would serve myself or others for the future He tends to be a bit quieter on. Consequently we continue to have a monstrous government that actively opposes everything Jesus stood for and bullies and abuses the poor the sick and the destitute while giving massive boons to those who really already have enough. 'If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?' (1 John 3:17) That's our government at the moment and the electorate who are voting for it. And God's just allowing it to continue. And yeah, that's my second master and yeah, I hate that master and love God but I still haven't the power to get shot of that master. I've always thought of Jesus's analogy there as strange. He was talking about God Versus Mammon, but loving God and hating Mammon doesn't seem to be an especially difficult proposition but it doesn't mean you can automatically extract yourself from service to Mammon however much you hate it.
And I've tried praying for wisdom too. There was nothing doing with that either. Too be honest I'm no longer sure who I'm supposed to be praying to anymore. There's supposed to be three persons in one being up there and I have no idea how and when I'm meant to address each one. It's really confusing for me.
It's easy to easy I'll have a great reward in the end but the more I think about it the more it sounds like it sucks. I mean if I'm supposed to have a great reward at the end what's the point of now, why don't we all just kill ourselves and be done with it? Thinking it's only going to be any good after we're dead seems a dumb idea to me.
I saw the film The World's End on Saturday and I did get a little concerned and it did an to an anxiety I already had that our 'reward' might end up being something like the aliens were trying to do in that. Which will make no sense to you if you haven't seen the film but I felt it all the same.
Thanks very much. Blessings.
I have not seen that movie .and never even head of it , but looked it up and saw the review .
I love your first scripture quote Chris ,
I do believe it , I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' John 10:10
I do believe Jesus is speaking of an abundant spiritual life , When you are healed and given ears to hear and eyes to see and heart to understand What the Spirit is saying . the Spirit is Life itself .
I don't think the carnal mind is able to discern spiritual things , and this is exactly what causes the confusion by mixing them two realms of thoughts together .
It took a long while to understand that concept for me , That God has always kept them separate from the beginning , the above Wisdom is holy incorruptible truth and cannot be changed or altered and the below wisdom tries and tries to bring it down in to lower level and and use it for its own benefits and use and even reason with Truth .
This is the confusion most are warring with within them selves battling for truth with the natural mind and with the Spiritual TRUTH .
This reconciling can only be done with the Son of Man being also the Son of God , This is the only way possible with GOD is though His one of a kind Son , made for this very purpose , Revelation is the revealing of Christ on the Day of the Lord, spoken of by the law and prophets and expounded on in the gospels .
This is how we are becoming more spiritual[pure] good in and by nature over the carnal [corruptible ]weak evil in nature , your strength is from the HOLY Spirit ruling over the carnal one , This comes from the FATHER AND SON working in you and for you , you are not your own , but bought with a price .
If you read in Gen 2 the tree of knowledge of good and evil , we can see that mixing and the bad nature and poor outcomes create in us these fruits of our own doings , we judged , we ruled and we lost , having the wrong spirit operating in us , till we hate evil totally and come to an end of ourselves .
Not ever realizing it is spiritual pride in us causing the problems , God has always been fair , every last one is born of the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Jesus said choose the good , make this tree good and its fruits honest before God and mankind honestly or make it corrupt and its doings corrupt , self serving self seeking and always for your own selfish benefit over others , stepping on others to get to the top and first and having the best of everything .
The way of the world is just that, beastly in nature wanting to rule everything and rule over all , but poorly full of errors /sin , always taking and and polluting it .never giving back anything , like thieves and robbers of God , not without ruining it first .
kəˈrəpt/Submit
adjective
1.
having or
showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain."unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials"
synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, dishonorable, unprincipled, unethical, amoral, untrustworthy, venal, underhanded, double-dealing, fraudulent, bribable, criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious; More
2.
(of a text or a computer database or program)
made unreliable by errors or alterations.
verb
1.
cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"
2.
change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"
synonyms: alter, tamper with, interfere with, bastardize, debase, adulterate
"the apostolic writings had been corrupted"
There is nothing in the world that has not been tampered with and ruined by this carnal mind[serpent wisdom ] that always has death results ?
But the LORD JESUS CHRIST Life giving Spirit would always raise Life up out of death , This is always our hope ..
I thought of the scripture and it has been very helpful in opening even more understanding of the Spirit of Truth and how it does set us free from ''confusion ''
For me the most helpful is to know the filthy has been judged already and failing the tests of time and place and why do we keep on trying to make it look ''good before mankind '' knowing it is pointless and not fooling God but only ourselves ?
Having tasted God and knowing His goodness , LOVE being in the Spirit[above death] and can enjoy life , those simple , pure and beautiful things . living things .
But still being carnal and lowered in to the realm of the world /death realm in my own weaknesses knowing how humble it keeps us and needy to rely on the Lord for every good thing always and being the only relationship of value , that trust has become a more and more needed and known thing to empower and embrace . cling to even , all hope is in the Spirit and life and Lord Himself .
What is filthy filthy still what is holy be holy still , I thought WE could only be seen as one or the other , this is why I am so disturbed when you say , you must be a heathen , You are seeing exactly was I did for many years , but I could not see it plain and could not rightly divide the WORD OF TRUTH ,
It is true that we are both inwardly[new man ] and outwardly [old man ] , the inward man is being renewed day by day as the outward man is perishing , this is a wonderful thing happening and to not fear the TRUTH ..
Take heart brother Chris , God knows what He is doing , we just got to trust His every move as only excellent things . God is that vastly wonderful . the trees of Life is what the Father plants that can never be uprooted [ the incorruptible seed / Word of God ] the inner man is eating of daily .. as the outward man is perishing , as still vile as ever .
When the seals are opened the WORD speaks volumes to the inner man of the heart as heaven opened ......
YLT [Rev 22]
Rev 22 10And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest
not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh; 11he who is unrighteous — let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy — let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous — let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified — let him be sanctified still:
12And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; 13I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last.
14'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is
doing a lie.16'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
17And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing — let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting — let him come; and he who is willing —
let him take the water of life freely.Nothing May Be Added
18'For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,
19and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'
20he saith — who is testifying these things — 'Yes, I come quickly!' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.
The carnal man is promised the curses for the fruit of his doings and eats death and spreads it like a deadly wound to that body of death and its inheritance , till he comes to an end , but the inner man chosen of God and Holy because of Gods Word and Spirit of truth working in them is given the heavenly[above ] things
that death cannot touch . because this Life is abundant in nature and spreads Life aboundingly beautiful pure and Holy things always and is its inheritance .
God bless you always Chris and all whom are His and working hard in them preparing them always , despite the outward appearance of things ....... that only the carnal mind can see happening .
Quote from: marie glen on September 19, 2016, 08:26:47 PM
CST, I'll confess to only skimming this conversation and thread.. but wanted to write a thing i learned.. it's we who have to conform to God, not God conform to us. Which of course, due to our imperfect (flawed) nature is hard for us to do.. It takes time.. When I have been submitting myself seriously to Him, and have felt I got down to the very floor of my being.. I felt the Spirit urging that now I had to start ripping up floorboards.. "Yield, yield, yield". Always, and consistently. After the good news and Father and Son, is the best thing I ever learned. The most profitable..
"The fruit of the Spirit is.." and the flip side, is all us.. He is SO patient.. for which I am SO thankful...
Also, the enemy of course is always throwing darts and spears, which stick into our flesh.. but it is the "shield of faith" (TRUST) which will cause them to fall to the ground bent and broken.. Trust of and in, Him. Also does not come naturally. And, He may not always change our circumstances.. It may be us and our attitude He changes.. We can be our own worst enemy.. I learned long ago a serious lesson that my neuron pathways - deep paths via long repetition and thought habits - had to be rerouted.. Which I guess is what being "washed by the water of the Word" is... That too takes time and yield, yield, yielding.. (And belief, of course.) "If we who are evil know how to give good gifts to our children, will He not give His Holy Spirit to those who ask.." This too can take a bit of time.. or, it can be instantaneous (I suppose) like at that first Pentecost of the church..
God bless you dear.. :gsmile:
Amen , love always sister Marie !! Words of Life right there!!! truth so be it , Amen !! :HeartThrob:
God keeps His promises so very thankful and forever grateful as His own possessions ......... :dsunny: :icon_flower:
Quote from: marie glen on September 19, 2016, 08:26:47 PM
CST, I'll confess to only skimming this conversation and thread.. but wanted to write a thing i learned.. it's we who have to conform to God, not God conform to us. Which of course, due to our imperfect (flawed) nature is hard for us to do.. It takes time.. When I have been submitting myself seriously to Him, and have felt I got down to the very floor of my being.. I felt the Spirit urging that now I had to start ripping up floorboards.. "Yield, yield, yield". Always, and consistently. After the good news and Father and Son, is the best thing I ever learned. The most profitable..
"The fruit of the Spirit is.." and the flip side, is all us.. He is SO patient.. for which I am SO thankful...
Also, the enemy of course is always throwing darts and spears, which stick into our flesh.. but it is the "shield of faith" (TRUST) which will cause them to fall to the ground bent and broken.. Trust of and in, Him. Also does not come naturally. And, He may not always change our circumstances.. It may be us and our attitude He changes.. We can be our own worst enemy.. I learned long ago a serious lesson that my neuron pathways - deep paths via long repetition and thought habits - had to be rerouted.. Which I guess is what being "washed by the water of the Word" is... That too takes time and yield, yield, yielding.. (And belief, of course.) "If we who are evil know how to give good gifts to our children, will He not give His Holy Spirit to those who ask.." This too can take a bit of time.. or, it can be instantaneous (I suppose) like at that first Pentecost of the church..
God bless you dear.. :gsmile:
Yeah, conform to God. He could have made us conforming to God on day one, there seems to be an awful lot of waste in God's world that He has made an awful lot. My reference to The World's End was because it seems to best express the concern that by the time we've been through this process of being conformed to God there might not be much of 'us' left. At some point something changes to the point it can no longer be recognized as what it formally was, so if conforming to God results in me changing to the point I've got nothing in common with me is it really me who was saved? Did God really love me? Questions, doubts and concerns I have in abundance, life not so much it feels.
I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing yielding to Him. He doesn't possess my body, that part of The World's End doesn't follow I make all my own poor decisions and nothing changes.
Thanks, Bless you.
Quote from: rosered on September 20, 2016, 01:50:02 PM
QuoteI am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' (John 10:10) My life sucks so much I consider it unreasonable to call it life by any true definition. I know that He does the living works in me but this isn't the next day, it's many days down the line and nothings happened. Hence why I'm starting to suspect He's not there in me and I am thus a heathen.
I've prayed for a lot of things over time but while God seems good at answering prayers that a good for the present things that would serve myself or others for the future He tends to be a bit quieter on. Consequently we continue to have a monstrous government that actively opposes everything Jesus stood for and bullies and abuses the poor the sick and the destitute while giving massive boons to those who really already have enough. 'If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?' (1 John 3:17) That's our government at the moment and the electorate who are voting for it. And God's just allowing it to continue. And yeah, that's my second master and yeah, I hate that master and love God but I still haven't the power to get shot of that master. I've always thought of Jesus's analogy there as strange. He was talking about God Versus Mammon, but loving God and hating Mammon doesn't seem to be an especially difficult proposition but it doesn't mean you can automatically extract yourself from service to Mammon however much you hate it.
And I've tried praying for wisdom too. There was nothing doing with that either. Too be honest I'm no longer sure who I'm supposed to be praying to anymore. There's supposed to be three persons in one being up there and I have no idea how and when I'm meant to address each one. It's really confusing for me.
It's easy to easy I'll have a great reward in the end but the more I think about it the more it sounds like it sucks. I mean if I'm supposed to have a great reward at the end what's the point of now, why don't we all just kill ourselves and be done with it? Thinking it's only going to be any good after we're dead seems a dumb idea to me.
I saw the film The World's End on Saturday and I did get a little concerned and it did an to an anxiety I already had that our 'reward' might end up being something like the aliens were trying to do in that. Which will make no sense to you if you haven't seen the film but I felt it all the same.
Thanks very much. Blessings.
I have not seen that movie .and never even head of it , but looked it up and saw the review .
I love your first scripture quote Chris ,
I do believe it , I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' John 10:10
I do believe Jesus is speaking of an abundant spiritual life , When you are healed and given ears to hear and eyes to see and heart to understand What the Spirit is saying . the Spirit is Life itself .
I don't think the carnal mind is able to discern spiritual things , and this is exactly what causes the confusion by mixing them two realms of thoughts together .
It took a long while to understand that concept for me , That God has always kept them separate from the beginning , the above Wisdom is holy incorruptible truth and cannot be changed or altered and the below wisdom tries and tries to bring it down in to lower level and and use it for its own benefits and use and even reason with Truth .
This is the confusion most are warring with within them selves battling for truth with the natural mind and with the Spiritual TRUTH .
This reconciling can only be done with the Son of Man being also the Son of God , This is the only way possible with GOD is though His one of a kind Son , made for this very purpose , Revelation is the revealing of Christ on the Day of the Lord, spoken of by the law and prophets and expounded on in the gospels .
This is how we are becoming more spiritual[pure] good in and by nature over the carnal [corruptible ]weak evil in nature , your strength is from the HOLY Spirit ruling over the carnal one , This comes from the FATHER AND SON working in you and for you , you are not your own , but bought with a price .
If you read in Gen 2 the tree of knowledge of good and evil , we can see that mixing and the bad nature and poor outcomes create in us these fruits of our own doings , we judged , we ruled and we lost , having the wrong spirit operating in us , till we hate evil totally and come to an end of ourselves .
Not ever realizing it is spiritual pride in us causing the problems , God has always been fair , every last one is born of the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Jesus said choose the good , make this tree good and its fruits honest before God and mankind honestly or make it corrupt and its doings corrupt , self serving self seeking and always for your own selfish benefit over others , stepping on others to get to the top and first and having the best of everything .
The way of the world is just that, beastly in nature wanting to rule everything and rule over all , but poorly full of errors /sin , always taking and and polluting it .never giving back anything , like thieves and robbers of God , not without ruining it first .
kəˈrəpt/Submit
adjective
1.
having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials"
synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, dishonorable, unprincipled, unethical, amoral, untrustworthy, venal, underhanded, double-dealing, fraudulent, bribable, criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious; More
2.
(of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations.
verb
1.
cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"
2.
change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"
synonyms: alter, tamper with, interfere with, bastardize, debase, adulterate
"the apostolic writings had been corrupted"
There is nothing in the world that has not been tampered with and ruined by this carnal mind[serpent wisdom ] that always has death results ?
But the LORD JESUS CHRIST Life giving Spirit would always raise Life up out of death , This is always our hope ..
I thought of the scripture and it has been very helpful in opening even more understanding of the Spirit of Truth and how it does set us free from "confusion "
For me the most helpful is to know the filthy has been judged already and failing the tests of time and place and why do we keep on trying to make it look "good before mankind " knowing it is pointless and not fooling God but only ourselves ?
Having tasted God and knowing His goodness , LOVE being in the Spirit[above death] and can enjoy life , those simple , pure and beautiful things . living things .
But still being carnal and lowered in to the realm of the world /death realm in my own weaknesses knowing how humble it keeps us and needy to rely on the Lord for every good thing always and being the only relationship of value , that trust has become a more and more needed and known thing to empower and embrace . cling to even , all hope is in the Spirit and life and Lord Himself .
What is filthy filthy still what is holy be holy still , I thought WE could only be seen as one or the other , this is why I am so disturbed when you say , you must be a heathen , You are seeing exactly was I did for many years , but I could not see it plain and could not rightly divide the WORD OF TRUTH ,
It is true that we are both inwardly[new man ] and outwardly [old man ] , the inward man is being renewed day by day as the outward man is perishing , this is a wonderful thing happening and to not fear the TRUTH ..
Take heart brother Chris , God knows what He is doing , we just got to trust His every move as only excellent things . God is that vastly wonderful . the trees of Life is what the Father plants that can never be uprooted [ the incorruptible seed / Word of God ] the inner man is eating of daily .. as the outward man is perishing , as still vile as ever .
When the seals are opened the WORD speaks volumes to the inner man of the heart as heaven opened ......
YLT [Rev 22]
Rev 22 10And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11he who is unrighteous — let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy — let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous — let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified — let him be sanctified still:
12And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; 13I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last.
14'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
16'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
17And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing — let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting — let him come; and he who is willing — let him take the water of life freely.
Nothing May Be Added
18'For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,
19and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'
20he saith — who is testifying these things — 'Yes, I come quickly!' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.
The carnal man is promised the curses for the fruit of his doings and eats death and spreads it like a deadly wound to that body of death and its inheritance , till he comes to an end , but the inner man chosen of God and Holy because of Gods Word and Spirit of truth working in them is given the heavenly[above ] things
that death cannot touch . because this Life is abundant in nature and spreads Life aboundingly beautiful pure and Holy things always and is its inheritance .
God bless you always Chris and all whom are His and working hard in them preparing them always , despite the outward appearance of things ....... that only the carnal mind can see happening .
Thanks, bless you too, Rose.
Hope you found the right movie, I imagined their could be many with that title.
Don't have much time to say anymore so will have to get back to you later.
Thanks.
I feel like the same person I was in 1979 when my life with Jesus began.. or that is, the same person I always was.. just the self destructive and pessimistic parts have been and are being chipped away. Yes, he could have made us to be more or less like a bunch of robots.. I realized one day, tha it was highly illogical if the fault was with God, and therfor that left me with the sense that it my be me.. haha.. Sometimes I think the answer to a prayer is just a little bit further down the road but by discouragement or anger, we get off the path to it..
Blessings! ..and :Pray: 's.. we've all pretty much, i think, been where you're at.. Take care..
What is God's stance toward human beings and their condition in regards to repentance ?.Can we know how Almighty God sees people and their need to repent ?. Yes, we can, Scripture tells us.2 Peter 3:9 says ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Greek= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Greek word= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for 'willing' is = 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Greek word= 'tis'= anyone at all ) to perish, but everyone (Greek work ='pantas' = all, everyone) to come to repentance'.The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance. So, God does not 'merely desire' all to be saved, He is resolutely planning toward all being saved. ( What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation) .Therefore, what Almighty God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.It's actually almost blasphemy to say God will fail to achieve that which He is resolutely planning.Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.If they are not all redeemed, God is not capable of getting what He wants to get. Honestly, people like our friend 'ps' who believe millions will be eternally lost,who believe not all will ultimately be saved, are simply not believing what God plainly says in His word.The actual mechanics of it, how it will exactly come about..I do not really know, although there are 'hints' in the Bible about how this Universal Reconciliation will take place...but how can we know exactly how God will redeem all ?..I / we are not almighty God...but HE knows how He will ultimately redeem the entire human race..I, we, just need to trust His word and the fact that He WILL do it...we need to truly believe that 'all things are possible with God'.By the way, if we are going to talk about so called 'free will' I must say that the Lord's will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him
:iagree: :thumbsup:
Repentance means to have a change of heart and mind. A renewed outlook leading to a renewed perception and a new direction. Since Jesus said , "No man comes to me except the Father draws them" and also... "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me", it is clearly the "resolute plan" of God for all men to be saved.. it is also His "kind intention"(eudokia).
In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Repentance, from a poetic/Biblical view.
A song I remember so well from Godspell, the play.
Turn Back, O Man:
Turn back, O man
Forswear thy foolish ways
Old now is earth
And none may count her days
Yet thou, her child
Whose head is crowned with flames
Still will not hear
Thine inner God proclaims
Turn back, O man (is your seat comfortable sir?) (mm, I like that)
Turn back, O man (is my seat comfortable sir?) (Handle with care)
Turn back, O man (can you take it?)
Forswear thy foolish ways
(See ya later I'm going to the front of the thee-ay-ter)
(Hold me while I slip into something more comfortable)
Earth might be fair
And all men glad and wise
Age after age their tragic empires rise
Built while they dream
And in that dreaming weep
Would man but wake
From out his haunted sleep
Turn back, O man...
Turn back, O man... (hard as a rock)
Turn back, O man...
Forswear thy foolish ways
Earth shall be fair
And all her people one
Not till that hour
Shall God's whole will be done
Now, even now
Once more from earth to sky
Peals forth in joy
Man's old undaunted cry
Earth shall be fair
And all her people one
C'mere Jesus, I got something to show ya!
(chorus repeat first verse)
Forswear thy foolish ways!
Read more: Schwartz Stephen - Turn Back O Man Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Taken from I Samuel 13:13 - "Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the Lord thy God." 1 Samuel 13:13
Hymns Supplied Through the Gracious Generosity
of the Cyber Hymnal Website
Words: Clifford Bax, 1919.
Music: "Old 124th," Genevan Psalter, 1551
Turn back, O man, forswear thy foolish ways.
Old now is earth, and none may count her days.
Yet thou, her child, whose head is crowned with flame,
Still wilt not hear thine inner God proclaim,
"Turn back, O man, forswear thy foolish ways."
Earth might be fair, and all men glad and wise.
Age after age their tragic empires rise,
Built while they dream, and in that dreaming weep:
Would man but wake from out his haunted sleep,
Earth might be fair and all men glad and wise.
Earth shall be fair, and all her people one:
Nor till that hour shall God's whole will be done.
Proverbs 28:13 – People who conceal their sins will not prosper,but if they confess and turn from them, they will receive mercy.
Matthew 3Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
3 And in those days cometh John the Baptist, proclaiming in the wilderness of Judea,
2 and saying, `Reform, for come nigh hath the reign of the heavens,'
3 for this is he who was spoken of by Isaiah the prophet, saying, `A voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, straight make ye His paths.'
4 And this John had his clothing of camel's hair, and a girdle of skin round his loins, and his nourishment was locusts and honey of the field.
5 Then were going forth unto him Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the region round about the Jordan,
6 and they were baptized in the Jordan by him, confessing their sins.
7 And having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming about his baptism, he said to them, `Brood of vipers! who did shew you to flee from the coming wrath?
8 bear, therefore, fruits worthy of the reformation,
9 and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have -- Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham,
10 and now also, the axe unto the root of the trees is laid, every tree therefore not bearing good fruit is hewn down, and to fire is cast.
11 `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,
12 whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee upon the Jordan, unto John to be baptized by him,
14 but John was forbidding him, saying, `I have need by thee to be baptized -- and thou dost come unto me!'
15 But Jesus answering said to him, `Suffer now, for thus it is becoming to us to fulfill all righteousness,' then he doth suffer him.
16 And having been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, and lo, opened to him were the heavens, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him,
17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, `This is My Son -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight.'
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
D.
Quote from: rosered on September 20, 2016, 01:50:02 PM
QuoteI am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' (John 10:10) My life sucks so much I consider it unreasonable to call it life by any true definition. I know that He does the living works in me but this isn't the next day, it's many days down the line and nothings happened. Hence why I'm starting to suspect He's not there in me and I am thus a heathen.
I've prayed for a lot of things over time but while God seems good at answering prayers that a good for the present things that would serve myself or others for the future He tends to be a bit quieter on. Consequently we continue to have a monstrous government that actively opposes everything Jesus stood for and bullies and abuses the poor the sick and the destitute while giving massive boons to those who really already have enough. 'If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?' (1 John 3:17) That's our government at the moment and the electorate who are voting for it. And God's just allowing it to continue. And yeah, that's my second master and yeah, I hate that master and love God but I still haven't the power to get shot of that master. I've always thought of Jesus's analogy there as strange. He was talking about God Versus Mammon, but loving God and hating Mammon doesn't seem to be an especially difficult proposition but it doesn't mean you can automatically extract yourself from service to Mammon however much you hate it.
And I've tried praying for wisdom too. There was nothing doing with that either. Too be honest I'm no longer sure who I'm supposed to be praying to anymore. There's supposed to be three persons in one being up there and I have no idea how and when I'm meant to address each one. It's really confusing for me.
It's easy to easy I'll have a great reward in the end but the more I think about it the more it sounds like it sucks. I mean if I'm supposed to have a great reward at the end what's the point of now, why don't we all just kill ourselves and be done with it? Thinking it's only going to be any good after we're dead seems a dumb idea to me.
I saw the film The World's End on Saturday and I did get a little concerned and it did an to an anxiety I already had that our 'reward' might end up being something like the aliens were trying to do in that. Which will make no sense to you if you haven't seen the film but I felt it all the same.
Thanks very much. Blessings.
I have not seen that movie .and never even head of it , but looked it up and saw the review .
I love your first scripture quote Chris ,
I do believe it , I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' John 10:10
I do believe Jesus is speaking of an abundant spiritual life , When you are healed and given ears to hear and eyes to see and heart to understand What the Spirit is saying . the Spirit is Life itself .
I don't think the carnal mind is able to discern spiritual things , and this is exactly what causes the confusion by mixing them two realms of thoughts together .
It took a long while to understand that concept for me , That God has always kept them separate from the beginning , the above Wisdom is holy incorruptible truth and cannot be changed or altered and the below wisdom tries and tries to bring it down in to lower level and and use it for its own benefits and use and even reason with Truth .
This is the confusion most are warring with within them selves battling for truth with the natural mind and with the Spiritual TRUTH .
This reconciling can only be done with the Son of Man being also the Son of God , This is the only way possible with GOD is though His one of a kind Son , made for this very purpose , Revelation is the revealing of Christ on the Day of the Lord, spoken of by the law and prophets and expounded on in the gospels .
This is how we are becoming more spiritual[pure] good in and by nature over the carnal [corruptible ]weak evil in nature , your strength is from the HOLY Spirit ruling over the carnal one , This comes from the FATHER AND SON working in you and for you , you are not your own , but bought with a price .
If you read in Gen 2 the tree of knowledge of good and evil , we can see that mixing and the bad nature and poor outcomes create in us these fruits of our own doings , we judged , we ruled and we lost , having the wrong spirit operating in us , till we hate evil totally and come to an end of ourselves .
Not ever realizing it is spiritual pride in us causing the problems , God has always been fair , every last one is born of the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Jesus said choose the good , make this tree good and its fruits honest before God and mankind honestly or make it corrupt and its doings corrupt , self serving self seeking and always for your own selfish benefit over others , stepping on others to get to the top and first and having the best of everything .
The way of the world is just that, beastly in nature wanting to rule everything and rule over all , but poorly full of errors /sin , always taking and and polluting it .never giving back anything , like thieves and robbers of God , not without ruining it first .
kəˈrəpt/Submit
adjective
1.
having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials"
synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, dishonorable, unprincipled, unethical, amoral, untrustworthy, venal, underhanded, double-dealing, fraudulent, bribable, criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious; More
2.
(of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations.
verb
1.
cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"
2.
change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"
synonyms: alter, tamper with, interfere with, bastardize, debase, adulterate
"the apostolic writings had been corrupted"
There is nothing in the world that has not been tampered with and ruined by this carnal mind[serpent wisdom ] that always has death results ?
But the LORD JESUS CHRIST Life giving Spirit would always raise Life up out of death , This is always our hope ..
I thought of the scripture and it has been very helpful in opening even more understanding of the Spirit of Truth and how it does set us free from "confusion "
For me the most helpful is to know the filthy has been judged already and failing the tests of time and place and why do we keep on trying to make it look "good before mankind " knowing it is pointless and not fooling God but only ourselves ?
Having tasted God and knowing His goodness , LOVE being in the Spirit[above death] and can enjoy life , those simple , pure and beautiful things . living things .
But still being carnal and lowered in to the realm of the world /death realm in my own weaknesses knowing how humble it keeps us and needy to rely on the Lord for every good thing always and being the only relationship of value , that trust has become a more and more needed and known thing to empower and embrace . cling to even , all hope is in the Spirit and life and Lord Himself .
What is filthy filthy still what is holy be holy still , I thought WE could only be seen as one or the other , this is why I am so disturbed when you say , you must be a heathen , You are seeing exactly was I did for many years , but I could not see it plain and could not rightly divide the WORD OF TRUTH ,
It is true that we are both inwardly[new man ] and outwardly [old man ] , the inward man is being renewed day by day as the outward man is perishing , this is a wonderful thing happening and to not fear the TRUTH ..
Take heart brother Chris , God knows what He is doing , we just got to trust His every move as only excellent things . God is that vastly wonderful . the trees of Life is what the Father plants that can never be uprooted [ the incorruptible seed / Word of God ] the inner man is eating of daily .. as the outward man is perishing , as still vile as ever .
When the seals are opened the WORD speaks volumes to the inner man of the heart as heaven opened ......
YLT [Rev 22]
Rev 22 10And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11he who is unrighteous — let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy — let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous — let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified — let him be sanctified still:
12And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; 13I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last.
14'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
16'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
17And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing — let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting — let him come; and he who is willing — let him take the water of life freely.
Nothing May Be Added
18'For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,
19and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'
20he saith — who is testifying these things — 'Yes, I come quickly!' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.
The carnal man is promised the curses for the fruit of his doings and eats death and spreads it like a deadly wound to that body of death and its inheritance , till he comes to an end , but the inner man chosen of God and Holy because of Gods Word and Spirit of truth working in them is given the heavenly[above ] things
that death cannot touch . because this Life is abundant in nature and spreads Life aboundingly beautiful pure and Holy things always and is its inheritance .
God bless you always Chris and all whom are His and working hard in them preparing them always , despite the outward appearance of things ....... that only the carnal mind can see happening .
Abundant spiritual life, I'm not sure it's 'spiritual' life the thief comes to destroy exclusively. And it's still either good for the now or it isn't and if it isn't good for the now we're living a pointless life on Earth which we may as well just end and get to the next one. But that's so counter intuitive the possibility is not entirely curtailed and people don't need for feel short changed by God lumbering us here. Or they shouldn't need to anyway.
It's not consistent to say that God has always kept the spiritual and carnal mind separate from each other. If He;d done that consistently we wouldn't have a problem because us bringing the two together would be an impossibility as God would continue to stop us.
But you're intimating we can and do bring them together flitting between the too and saying I'm flitting between the too so God ignores me. I'm saying that i suspect I'm all carnal and no part spiritual hence why I'm heathen and only think I have any part in Jesus even though He has actually called on me yet. I'm no longer convinced any person of God is working in me, again why I suspect I'm actually heathen. Which I don't like as a though because I'm concerned it abuses God. But the elect don't abuse God according to the Bible so... that actually is confusion.
Are you saying Good/Evil is equal to Spiritual/Carnal? Because obviously God hadn't kept them separate in that fruit it appears He'd put them together.
And yes the Bible does say make the tree good and the fruit good or make the tree bad and the fruit bad. But actually again the tree and fruit are actually good when they are rooted in Him as chosen by Him. And bad tree cannot make it's self into a good tree by its own efforts and again, I suspect I'm a bad tree as I find I have no good fruit. And bad trees are bad owing to not being rooted in Jesus. We've just come full circle here.
These are all just words, my fear, and why I mentioned The World's end is that humanity is defined by being carnal and every human is defined by being carnal. If we stopped being carnal we'd have to change to such a huge degree we'd completely lose our original identity to the point of being unrecognizable. And at the stage we'll all be so far removed as it's hard to see us as having anything in common with the being we used to be. So who's God actually saving, who does He actually love?
Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2016, 10:00:58 PM
I feel like the same person I was in 1979 when my life with Jesus began.. or that is, the same person I always was.. just the self destructive and pessimistic parts have been and are being chipped away. Yes, he could have made us to be more or less like a bunch of robots.. I realized one day, tha it was highly illogical if the fault was with God, and therfor that left me with the sense that it my be me.. haha.. Sometimes I think the answer to a prayer is just a little bit further down the road but by discouragement or anger, we get off the path to it..
Blessings! ..and :Pray: 's.. we've all pretty much, i think, been where you're at.. Take care..
As far as I'm aware my life with Jesus began when I was born, it may as well have done. I grew up in a Christian home and can't remember ever doubting Jesus. At the same time how I responded to my religion has changed many times over the years and I must have too given that I've been growing. But the question stands, who does God love? Mum often talks (or has in the past) like she misses who I used to be, her 'little boy' I don't think I've changed that much either but I know I much have changed somewhat because I've learned and grown.
But that wasn't really my point. There are people in the world who choose to be assassins, the professionally kill other people and have character derived motives for being assassins. No one thinks they're getting into the kingdom like that but they do it because their character directs them towards that decision. My point is this isn't about me and you. Everyone likes to think that there's OK and it's everyone else that has the problem. Depending on there ego depends how much they thinking about what they do, but thinking God might want you to stop doing certain things your doing is not the same as wanting to stop doing those things yourself. Everyone thinks they're fine. The Christian position is that the Bible teaches that no one is fine or even close to fine. My concern is how far God expects them to move from their 'home' to become His idea of fine and what happens to them them they once were who God supposedly loves.
Quote from: darryl on September 22, 2016, 01:18:23 AM
What is God's stance toward human beings and their condition in regards to repentance ?.Can we know how Almighty God sees people and their need to repent ?. Yes, we can, Scripture tells us.2 Peter 3:9 says ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Greek= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Greek word= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for 'willing' is = 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Greek word= 'tis'= anyone at all ) to perish, but everyone (Greek work ='pantas' = all, everyone) to come to repentance'.The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance. So, God does not 'merely desire' all to be saved, He is resolutely planning toward all being saved. ( What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation) .Therefore, what Almighty God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.It's actually almost blasphemy to say God will fail to achieve that which He is resolutely planning.Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.If they are not all redeemed, God is not capable of getting what He wants to get. Honestly, people like our friend 'ps' who believe millions will be eternally lost,who believe not all will ultimately be saved, are simply not believing what God plainly says in His word.The actual mechanics of it, how it will exactly come about..I do not really know, although there are 'hints' in the Bible about how this Universal Reconciliation will take place...but how can we know exactly how God will redeem all ?..I / we are not almighty God...but HE knows how He will ultimately redeem the entire human race..I, we, just need to trust His word and the fact that He WILL do it...we need to truly believe that 'all things are possible with God'.By the way, if we are going to talk about so called 'free will' I must say that the Lord's will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him
Were we talking about Free Will? I didn't think I was, I don't believe in Free Will and think it's not compatible with UR.
Quote from: CST on September 22, 2016, 06:37:32 PM
Quote from: rosered on September 20, 2016, 01:50:02 PM
QuoteI am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' (John 10:10) My life sucks so much I consider it unreasonable to call it life by any true definition. I know that He does the living works in me but this isn't the next day, it's many days down the line and nothings happened. Hence why I'm starting to suspect He's not there in me and I am thus a heathen.
I've prayed for a lot of things over time but while God seems good at answering prayers that a good for the present things that would serve myself or others for the future He tends to be a bit quieter on. Consequently we continue to have a monstrous government that actively opposes everything Jesus stood for and bullies and abuses the poor the sick and the destitute while giving massive boons to those who really already have enough. 'If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?' (1 John 3:17) That's our government at the moment and the electorate who are voting for it. And God's just allowing it to continue. And yeah, that's my second master and yeah, I hate that master and love God but I still haven't the power to get shot of that master. I've always thought of Jesus's analogy there as strange. He was talking about God Versus Mammon, but loving God and hating Mammon doesn't seem to be an especially difficult proposition but it doesn't mean you can automatically extract yourself from service to Mammon however much you hate it.
And I've tried praying for wisdom too. There was nothing doing with that either. Too be honest I'm no longer sure who I'm supposed to be praying to anymore. There's supposed to be three persons in one being up there and I have no idea how and when I'm meant to address each one. It's really confusing for me.
It's easy to easy I'll have a great reward in the end but the more I think about it the more it sounds like it sucks. I mean if I'm supposed to have a great reward at the end what's the point of now, why don't we all just kill ourselves and be done with it? Thinking it's only going to be any good after we're dead seems a dumb idea to me.
I saw the film The World's End on Saturday and I did get a little concerned and it did an to an anxiety I already had that our 'reward' might end up being something like the aliens were trying to do in that. Which will make no sense to you if you haven't seen the film but I felt it all the same.
Thanks very much. Blessings.
I have not seen that movie .and never even head of it , but looked it up and saw the review .
I love your first scripture quote Chris ,
I do believe it , I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it have it more abundantly' John 10:10
I do believe Jesus is speaking of an abundant spiritual life , When you are healed and given ears to hear and eyes to see and heart to understand What the Spirit is saying . the Spirit is Life itself .
I don't think the carnal mind is able to discern spiritual things , and this is exactly what causes the confusion by mixing them two realms of thoughts together .
It took a long while to understand that concept for me , That God has always kept them separate from the beginning , the above Wisdom is holy incorruptible truth and cannot be changed or altered and the below wisdom tries and tries to bring it down in to lower level and and use it for its own benefits and use and even reason with Truth .
This is the confusion most are warring with within them selves battling for truth with the natural mind and with the Spiritual TRUTH .
This reconciling can only be done with the Son of Man being also the Son of God , This is the only way possible with GOD is though His one of a kind Son , made for this very purpose , Revelation is the revealing of Christ on the Day of the Lord, spoken of by the law and prophets and expounded on in the gospels .
This is how we are becoming more spiritual[pure] good in and by nature over the carnal [corruptible ]weak evil in nature , your strength is from the HOLY Spirit ruling over the carnal one , This comes from the FATHER AND SON working in you and for you , you are not your own , but bought with a price .
If you read in Gen 2 the tree of knowledge of good and evil , we can see that mixing and the bad nature and poor outcomes create in us these fruits of our own doings , we judged , we ruled and we lost , having the wrong spirit operating in us , till we hate evil totally and come to an end of ourselves .
Not ever realizing it is spiritual pride in us causing the problems , God has always been fair , every last one is born of the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Jesus said choose the good , make this tree good and its fruits honest before God and mankind honestly or make it corrupt and its doings corrupt , self serving self seeking and always for your own selfish benefit over others , stepping on others to get to the top and first and having the best of everything .
The way of the world is just that, beastly in nature wanting to rule everything and rule over all , but poorly full of errors /sin , always taking and and polluting it .never giving back anything , like thieves and robbers of God , not without ruining it first .
kəˈrəpt/Submit
adjective
1.
having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"unscrupulous logging companies assisted by corrupt officials"
synonyms: dishonest, unscrupulous, dishonorable, unprincipled, unethical, amoral, untrustworthy, venal, underhanded, double-dealing, fraudulent, bribable, criminal, illegal, unlawful, nefarious; More
2.
(of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations.
verb
1.
cause to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
"there is a continuing fear of firms corrupting politicians in the search for contracts"
2.
change or debase by making errors or unintentional alterations.
"Epicurus's teachings have since been much corrupted"
synonyms: alter, tamper with, interfere with, bastardize, debase, adulterate
"the apostolic writings had been corrupted"
There is nothing in the world that has not been tampered with and ruined by this carnal mind[serpent wisdom ] that always has death results ?
But the LORD JESUS CHRIST Life giving Spirit would always raise Life up out of death , This is always our hope ..
I thought of the scripture and it has been very helpful in opening even more understanding of the Spirit of Truth and how it does set us free from "confusion "
For me the most helpful is to know the filthy has been judged already and failing the tests of time and place and why do we keep on trying to make it look "good before mankind " knowing it is pointless and not fooling God but only ourselves ?
Having tasted God and knowing His goodness , LOVE being in the Spirit[above death] and can enjoy life , those simple , pure and beautiful things . living things .
But still being carnal and lowered in to the realm of the world /death realm in my own weaknesses knowing how humble it keeps us and needy to rely on the Lord for every good thing always and being the only relationship of value , that trust has become a more and more needed and known thing to empower and embrace . cling to even , all hope is in the Spirit and life and Lord Himself .
What is filthy filthy still what is holy be holy still , I thought WE could only be seen as one or the other , this is why I am so disturbed when you say , you must be a heathen , You are seeing exactly was I did for many years , but I could not see it plain and could not rightly divide the WORD OF TRUTH ,
It is true that we are both inwardly[new man ] and outwardly [old man ] , the inward man is being renewed day by day as the outward man is perishing , this is a wonderful thing happening and to not fear the TRUTH ..
Take heart brother Chris , God knows what He is doing , we just got to trust His every move as only excellent things . God is that vastly wonderful . the trees of Life is what the Father plants that can never be uprooted [ the incorruptible seed / Word of God ] the inner man is eating of daily .. as the outward man is perishing , as still vile as ever .
When the seals are opened the WORD speaks volumes to the inner man of the heart as heaven opened ......
YLT [Rev 22]
Rev 22 10And he saith to me, 'Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh;
11he who is unrighteous — let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy — let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous — let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified — let him be sanctified still:
12And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; 13I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last.
14'Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
16'I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!
17And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing — let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting — let him come; and he who is willing — let him take the water of life freely.
Nothing May Be Added
18'For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,
19and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'
20he saith — who is testifying these things — 'Yes, I come quickly!' Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!
21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.
The carnal man is promised the curses for the fruit of his doings and eats death and spreads it like a deadly wound to that body of death and its inheritance , till he comes to an end , but the inner man chosen of God and Holy because of Gods Word and Spirit of truth working in them is given the heavenly[above ] things
that death cannot touch . because this Life is abundant in nature and spreads Life aboundingly beautiful pure and Holy things always and is its inheritance .
God bless you always Chris and all whom are His and working hard in them preparing them always , despite the outward appearance of things ....... that only the carnal mind can see happening .
Abundant spiritual life, I'm not sure it's 'spiritual' life the thief comes to destroy exclusively. And it's still either good for the now or it isn't and if it isn't good for the now we're living a pointless life on Earth which we may as well just end and get to the next one. But that's so counter intuitive the possibility is not entirely curtailed and people don't need for feel short changed by God lumbering us here. Or they shouldn't need to anyway.
It's not consistent to say that God has always kept the spiritual and carnal mind separate from each other. If He;d done that consistently we wouldn't have a problem because us bringing the two together would be an impossibility as God would continue to stop us.
But you're intimating we can and do bring them together flitting between the too and saying I'm flitting between the too so God ignores me. I'm saying that i suspect I'm all carnal and no part spiritual hence why I'm heathen and only think I have any part in Jesus even though He has actually called on me yet. I'm no longer convinced any person of God is working in me, again why I suspect I'm actually heathen. Which I don't like as a though because I'm concerned it abuses God. But the elect don't abuse God according to the Bible so... that actually is confusion.
Are you saying Good/Evil is equal to Spiritual/Carnal? Because obviously God hadn't kept them separate in that fruit it appears He'd put them together.
And yes the Bible does say make the tree good and the fruit good or make the tree bad and the fruit bad. But actually again the tree and fruit are actually good when they are rooted in Him as chosen by Him. And bad tree cannot make it's self into a good tree by its own efforts and again, I suspect I'm a bad tree as I find I have no good fruit. And bad trees are bad owing to not being rooted in Jesus. We've just come full circle here.
These are all just words, my fear, and why I mentioned The World's end is that humanity is defined by being carnal and every human is defined by being carnal. If we stopped being carnal we'd have to change to such a huge degree we'd completely lose our original identity to the point of being unrecognizable. And at the stage we'll all be so far removed as it's hard to see us as having anything in common with the being we used to be. So who's God actually saving, who does He actually love?
Quote from: marie glen on September 20, 2016, 10:00:58 PM
I feel like the same person I was in 1979 when my life with Jesus began.. or that is, the same person I always was.. just the self destructive and pessimistic parts have been and are being chipped away. Yes, he could have made us to be more or less like a bunch of robots.. I realized one day, tha it was highly illogical if the fault was with God, and therfor that left me with the sense that it my be me.. haha.. Sometimes I think the answer to a prayer is just a little bit further down the road but by discouragement or anger, we get off the path to it..
Blessings! ..and :Pray: 's.. we've all pretty much, i think, been where you're at.. Take care..
As far as I'm aware my life with Jesus began when I was born, it may as well have done. I grew up in a Christian home and can't remember ever doubting Jesus. At the same time how I responded to my religion has changed many times over the years and I must have too given that I've been growing. But the question stands, who does God love? Mum often talks (or has in the past) like she misses who I used to be, her 'little boy' I don't think I've changed that much either but I know I much have changed somewhat because I've learned and grown.
But that wasn't really my point. There are people in the world who choose to be assassins, the professionally kill other people and have character derived motives for being assassins. No one thinks they're getting into the kingdom like that but they do it because their character directs them towards that decision. My point is this isn't about me and you. Everyone likes to think that there's OK and it's everyone else that has the problem. Depending on there ego depends how much they thinking about what they do, but thinking God might want you to stop doing certain things your doing is not the same as wanting to stop doing those things yourself. Everyone thinks they're fine. The Christian position is that the Bible teaches that no one is fine or even close to fine. My concern is how far God expects them to move from their 'home' to become His idea of fine and what happens to them them they once were who God supposedly loves.
Quote from: darryl on September 22, 2016, 01:18:23 AM
What is God's stance toward human beings and their condition in regards to repentance ?.Can we know how Almighty God sees people and their need to repent ?. Yes, we can, Scripture tells us.2 Peter 3:9 says ( Strong's definitions included) , ' The Lord is not (Greek= 'ou'= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Greek word= 'me'= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for 'willing' is = 'boúlomai' ="resolutely plan",planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Greek word= 'tis'= anyone at all ) to perish, but everyone (Greek work ='pantas' = all, everyone) to come to repentance'.The Greek word 'boulomai' is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is 'resolutely planning' for all to come to repentance. So, God does not 'merely desire' all to be saved, He is resolutely planning toward all being saved. ( What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation) .Therefore, what Almighty God 'resolutely plans', MUST happen.It's actually almost blasphemy to say God will fail to achieve that which He is resolutely planning.Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.If they are not all redeemed, God is not capable of getting what He wants to get. Honestly, people like our friend 'ps' who believe millions will be eternally lost,who believe not all will ultimately be saved, are simply not believing what God plainly says in His word.The actual mechanics of it, how it will exactly come about..I do not really know, although there are 'hints' in the Bible about how this Universal Reconciliation will take place...but how can we know exactly how God will redeem all ?..I / we are not almighty God...but HE knows how He will ultimately redeem the entire human race..I, we, just need to trust His word and the fact that He WILL do it...we need to truly believe that 'all things are possible with God'.By the way, if we are going to talk about so called 'free will' I must say that the Lord's will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him
Were we talking about Free Will? I didn't think I was, I don't believe in Free Will and think it's not compatible with UR.
I'm talking about God's will to save ALL and I must say that the Lord's will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him
Have I explained this so badly? My concerns are not about God's will to save 'everyone' which I don't really doubt. It's about how far the term 'everyone stretches and what is meant to be happening in this age while we're waiting for Him to fulfill that will. And following that my concern that I may well fall into the Biblically described camp of false Christian.
Quote from: CST on September 23, 2016, 07:10:33 PM
Have I explained this so badly? My concerns are not about God's will to save 'everyone' which I don't really doubt. It's about how far the term 'everyone stretches and what is meant to be happening in this age while we're waiting for Him to fulfill that will. And following that my concern that I may well fall into the Biblically described camp of false Christian.
i understand....i have a potentially very serious medical problem i am waiting on results of biopsy i am terribly worried n trying to pray to find peace...sometimes God seems remote which terrifies me....because of my sinful mostly selfish life it will be enough for me to be accepted in heaven at all let alone expect rewards
Quote from: CST on September 23, 2016, 07:10:33 PM
Have I explained this so badly? My concerns are not about God's will to save 'everyone' which I don't really doubt. It's about how far the term 'everyone stretches and what is meant to be happening in this age while we're waiting for Him to fulfill that will. And following that my concern that I may well fall into the Biblically described camp of false Christian.
it's all very well to believe God loves all and He'll save all and laa dee daa dee daaa, etc etc but the test comes when one is actually facing death...that's when we see how strong one's faith in UR is
Ah, that's closer to understanding my sentiments but I'm not sure you necessarily need to be facing death just loss. But I've notice that this is meant to be the UR affirmations thread and this is very UR promoting so I'll try and explain my position through some 'wisdom' I received from 'God' this morning. I'll leave it for you to decide if there really is wisdom from God in it.
As I understand and ET and ED Christian has learned from he Bible the 'total depravity' of mankind. They understand this to mean Man is at nature evil God sends the to Hell or Destruction because it's all He can do with them. They are 100% evil and go the way of all evil things when the time comes for God to expel evil.
My position and, I think the position of most of UR Christians here, what I was reminded of earlier, is that the the Bible actually teaches that 'total depravity' means that humans are 100% weak. That without help for God they will be completely unable to resist the temptation to sin however much they want to (didn't Paul describe his own weakness this way?) and that they will neither accept God's help which they need or go looking for it unless He imposes it on them.
Sin, in the basic, seems to come in three forms - 1.doing or pursuing what you know you should not, 2.doing or pursuing what you can recklessly and carelessly, 3.not doing or pursuing what you should.
These three things are sin and can result in evil. Adam chose to try to be independent from God and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and now is lost. It's often discussed as it Adam only received the knowledge of evil and the knowledge of good escaped us, it didn't or we might actually have excuse.
But God does not want for us to be independent neither from Himself or, and this the Church seems to mention less, each other. Hence why it is not good for man to be alone. That is why the ideal modal relationship is male/female which can produce children. They are meant to be dependent on and responsible for each other, and also responsible for their children which they produce and dependent on God. He also desires for them to have children so they can understand the experience of having children similarly, but not identically to what He does.
People are not meant to be independent, and that how God desires it and planned it. If any human could succeed at being happy in independence that people would have no need to love either God or other humans and that is not God's plan. God plan is for His children to be together and Him to be with them. ET and ED are stupid position that undermine this.
My problem is that I'm appallingly bad with people in the real world and not much better with those on line. I feel cut off from both Heaven and Earth like I belong to neither to world today or the world to come. I pray to God, He does answer I go to my fellow humans and become silent. I feel cut off from life and God doesn't seem to answer my prayers on this most important reality no matter how much I ask. I must be asking wrong. :dontknow:
Quote from: CST on September 24, 2016, 06:57:20 PM
Ah, that's closer to understanding my sentiments but I'm not sure you necessarily need to be facing death just loss. But I've notice that this is meant to be the UR affirmations thread and this is very UR promoting so I'll try and explain my position through some 'wisdom' I received from 'God' this morning. I'll leave it for you to decide if there really is wisdom from God in it.
As I understand and ET and ED Christian has learned from he Bible the 'total depravity' of mankind. They understand this to mean Man is at nature evil God sends the to Hell or Destruction because it's all He can do with them. They are 100% evil and go the way of all evil things when the time comes for God to expel evil.
My position and, I think the position of most of UR Christians here, what I was reminded of earlier, is that the the Bible actually teaches that 'total depravity' means that humans are 100% weak. That without help for God they will be completely unable to resist the temptation to sin however much they want to (didn't Paul describe his own weakness this way?) and that they will neither accept God's help which they need or go looking for it unless He imposes it on them.
Sin, in the basic, seems to come in three forms - 1.doing or pursuing what you know you should not, 2.doing or pursuing what you can recklessly and carelessly, 3.not doing or pursuing what you should.
These three things are sin and can result in evil. Adam chose to try to be independent from God and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and now is lost. It's often discussed as it Adam only received the knowledge of evil and the knowledge of good escaped us, it didn't or we might actually have excuse.
But God does not want for us to be independent neither from Himself or, and this the Church seems to mention less, each other. Hence why it is not good for man to be alone. That is why the ideal modal relationship is male/female which can produce children. They are meant to be dependent on and responsible for each other, and also responsible for their children which they produce and dependent on God. He also desires for them to have children so they can understand the experience of having children similarly, but not identically to what He does.
People are not meant to be independent, and that how God desires it and planned it. If any human could succeed at being happy in independence that people would have no need to love either God or other humans and that is not God's plan. God plan is for His children to be together and Him to be with them. ET and ED are stupid position that undermine this.
My problem is that I'm appallingly bad with people in the real world and not much better with those on line. I feel cut off from both Heaven and Earth like I belong to neither to world today or the world to come. I pray to God, He does answer I go to my fellow humans and become silent. I feel cut off from life and God doesn't seem to answer my prayers on this most important reality no matter how much I ask. I must be asking wrong. :dontknow:
sorry, I don't know.My tests came back 100% normal, btw...praise God !. :banana: :banana: :banana: :dsunny:
I'd like to believe God never created anyone who was 100 % evil and beyond redemption...that's my hope
This is the "mystery of iniquity". God created Adam and Eve pure and clean, but Romans 8 says He set them uo for the fall. It is through the fall we can come to kno Him As He Is.
Without futility we could not know grace, mercy, forgiveness, sacrifice- because there would be no need for the Lamb to be slain from the foubdations of the world.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2016, 09:28:11 AM
This is the "mystery of iniquity". God created Adam and Eve pure and clean, but Romans 8 says He set them uo for the fall. It is through the fall we can come to kno Him As He Is.
Without futility we could not know grace, mercy, forgiveness, sacrifice- because there would be no need for the Lamb to be slain from the foubdations of the world.
:thumbsup:
I'm just proving my initial point here, aren't I? I was trying to say that proponents of ET and ED see humans become 100% as a result of Adam's fall, this is how they seem to understand terms like 'total depravity'. I was saying they are actually, as I understand it 100% weak, or 100% inclined to choose evil if left to their own devices because they don't know much better and can't help themselves they don't actually want to if they realize the implications. This makes a huge difference in God's capacity to save them but I thought that was only the most minor part of what I said in which I was trying to emphasize my concern that while I'm sure I'm a sinner I'm not sure how much of one I am as regards to positions 1, 2 and 3 and thus which changes I should make in what proportions in order to reduce my sin.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2016, 09:28:11 AM
This is the "mystery of iniquity". God created Adam and Eve pure and clean, but Romans 8 says He set them uo for the fall. It is through the fall we can come to kno Him As He Is.
Without futility we could not know grace, mercy, forgiveness, sacrifice- because there would be no need for the Lamb to be slain from the foubdations of the world.
Yes, we have to sin in order to be forgiven.
CHB
Perceiving the flesh as the immature child that it is makes ones spirit able to forgive it, if we cannot forgive our own flesh for its immaturity, how can we forgive others?
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2016, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2016, 09:28:11 AM
This is the "mystery of iniquity". God created Adam and Eve pure and clean, but Romans 8 says He set them uo for the fall. It is through the fall we can come to kno Him As He Is.
Without futility we could not know grace, mercy, forgiveness, sacrifice- because there would be no need for the Lamb to be slain from the foubdations of the world.
Yes, we have to sin in order to be forgiven.
CHB
If we have no choice we are not God's children, but His robots......If we are not perfect, we will choose 'sin' at least some of the time........when we choose sin, we have consequences of it......that is when we all eat of the tree of Good and Evil, and know the difference......and that is when we need a Savior, and forgiveness....and to be loved, as we are.....imperfect. But, God, through the death of Jesus on the cross, can transform us into 'perfect' through the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. He and He alone, is our righteousness.
Who else but God would orchestrate such a seamless story of love, grace and redemption.
D.
Hi D,
If we had never sinned we would have no reason to be forgiven.
I didn't mean to imply that we didn't have choices but it is God who gives us everything that we chose from. He is the source of all things. We choose from what lies before us. But that is a whole other subject. Sorry!
CHB
Quote from: jugghead on September 27, 2016, 03:51:43 AM
Perceiving the flesh as the immature child that it is makes ones spirit able to forgive it, if we cannot forgive our own flesh for its immaturity, how can we forgive others?
Are we meant to forgive 'the flesh', Paul was pretty harsh about it. We're meant to forgive each other and I suppose it's their 'flesh' which is responsible for their sinful deeds so I suppose we must be but this use of terminology is confusing.
Quote from: Dandelion on September 27, 2016, 07:38:10 AM
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2016, 08:03:53 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2016, 09:28:11 AM
This is the "mystery of iniquity". God created Adam and Eve pure and clean, but Romans 8 says He set them uo for the fall. It is through the fall we can come to kno Him As He Is.
Without futility we could not know grace, mercy, forgiveness, sacrifice- because there would be no need for the Lamb to be slain from the foubdations of the world.
Yes, we have to sin in order to be forgiven.
CHB
If we have no choice we are not God's children, but His robots......If we are not perfect, we will choose 'sin' at least some of the time........when we choose sin, we have consequences of it......that is when we all eat of the tree of Good and Evil, and know the difference......and that is when we need a Savior, and forgiveness....and to be loved, as we are.....imperfect. But, God, through the death of Jesus on the cross, can transform us into 'perfect' through the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross. He and He alone, is our righteousness.
Who else but God would orchestrate such a seamless story of love, grace and redemption.
D.
We have identities, they determine our characters and what decisions we make in any given situation. Robot means 'slave' as they kept mentioning in The World's End as I recall. Robot are just mechanical clones that are identical to each other and do what they are programmed to do. We do what we're programmed to do but we're unique with distinct and separate personalities such as our interactions and experiences which God has planned for us, mainly by not overruling but when necessary by getting involved very strongly to keep us on course. This is a rough idea of how I think it works anyway. Robots never change and their programming remains constant.
Yea. I see the whole thing as being more fluid and organic than what is represented in most theories. God as fore ordained according to His purpose that he will be all in all. The major strokes were all brushed in from the creation of the world. The individual details are predestined "according to the foreknowledge of God", but all things are working towards His purpose, more like the current in a vast river than as manipulation of individual details.
He sprinkled among the baskets of grain(all the families of heaven and earth through out all generations) the leaven of the kingdom, the chosen, the ecclesia(called out ones)-the firstfruits of the restoration of all things(the elect from Abel through the patriarchs, through the judges, prophets and the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven heb 12). Outside the bubble(the other side of the veil, in the olam) God sees all complete from alpha to omega. Inside the bubble, we act according to a stewardship of time give to each one fro the purpose of becoming a son or daughter of God, and God interacts with us by His Spirit as a Father, a Shepherd, a Savior, etc.
It is portrayed in the first verses as "the way He works" - in my very personal and humble opinion.
"In the beginning the earth was without form and void, and the Spirit hovered over the waters".
This, to me, is a picture of how God works with each individual and with all the families under heaven and earth and mankind as a whole.
The God said "Let there be light" and there was evening(darkness) and morning(light)
A division of chaos into light(that which is seen) and darkness(that which is still hidden) begins when the Logos, the incorruptible seed of the word of God is emplanted as "Christ in you, the hope of glory"....
Even as that seed was emplanted in the whole earth in the same way at the pinnacle of the ages, the hope of glory for the whole creation.
17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, with whom there is no change or shifting shadow. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
The first fruits are the elect(more seeds, seed stock), chosen in each generation of each age to move the restoration of all things along according to God's predestined purpose to set the whole creation free into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Looks like chaos and darkness from the inside. Looks like God is completely in control from the other side(olam) and God's control is the absolute freedom of love in which all things find their appropriate place according to their predestined purpose and(in my view) that purpose is infinitely fluid and free.
And even if our gospel is veiled(hidden), it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts(tore the veil, manifested what had been hidden) to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.2 Cor 4
I think "Light shining out of darkness" is the hidden glory becoming manifest as the veil grows thinner as the "olam"(end of the age, world to come) approaches. Thats why we are encouraged to set our affections on things above and to be "seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" wher all spiritual blessings are- in order to increase our awareness of what God is doing NOW, in our generation among whom we walk as lights- and increase our participation in it.
This is an issue(imo) of two different stages of consciousness and knowing which one we are speaking from.
An old quarter has an eagle and a GW head on it. The debate as to whether quarters are recognized by the head of GW or the eagle is do to our limited perspective.
We have choices, but God has predestined that all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.
IMO, Where the division between what is fore ordained(olam view) and what is our choice(present vview)- is hidden in mystery until the day that we know as we are known, and the footprints in the sand will teach us how we reached our destination, perhaps through a blessed mutuality of relationship with God our Father.....
Abraham, the father of many nations, in whom all the nations of the earth would be blessed, was the friend of God- even as he was also chosen from the foundation of the world.
'The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful--for he cannot deny himself.' (2 Timothy 2:11-13)
Quote from: CST on September 29, 2016, 02:01:41 PM
'The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful--for he cannot deny himself.' (2 Timothy 2:11-13)
Amen!
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)
So glad that altho men may see Him through veils obstructed by false teaching, we see Him through Christ crucified, as ministers of the word of reconciliation.
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32)
Here's another affirmation of Universal Reconciliation & Redemption (Recovery, Repentance)
Which I'm sure has been posted and quoted many times in this forum, but I just took note of it when reading it today..
2 Corinthians 5:18,19 -
"Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through
Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,"
- NOT just 'part of the world' but, "the world" - "not imputing their
trespasses to them," - them, who?/ "the world" -
"and, has committed to us, the word of reconciliation". (This also tells me what we will be doing in (mo) the two next ages..)
Quote"and, has committed to us, the word of reconciliation". (This also tells me what we will be doing in (mo) the two next ages..)
:thumbsup:
"I will sing of mercy and judgment unto Thee, oh Lord, will I sing." - Psalm 101:1