I have been planning for a long time, but have never quite found the words, to write a short tract that I can post or give out about the Victorious Gospel. The tract would be an apology to the world on behalf of Christians; how the church has misrepresented Jesus Christ and His Victorious Gospel; an apology to the world for the suffering misguided Christians have heaped upon the world. A brief explanation of what happened, how the church steered in the wrong direction. A brief explanation of the Victorious Gospel using a string of Scriptures. A brief explanation how our Bibles have been corrupted. A brief explanation of why Jesus chose to hide the truly good news through this church age and how it's now time to reveal the full gospel of peace to all nations. And an invitation to those who are hungry for the Kingdom of Jesus. I have a friend who now wants to go into the hi-ways and byways to give food and a short tract to those he meets. He wants to give them hope. I've been wanting just the right tract myself to give to people in our community who are falling through the cracks during this time of recession in Missouri. We have a lot of hurting people here. So does every community.
I hope those of you who feel you have a writing gift to take a crack at producing a short tract like this. Perhaps some of you who have graphics, printing, web skills may offer some help. And those of you who have time may find ways to get this tract and others out there into discussion board, blogs, youtube, facebook etc. I think it's time.
Gary wrote: I think it's time.
I do too Gary! Thanks for this idea.
CHB
I have played around with the track idea for awhile. I found it difficult to write something short and concise, yet comprehensive enough to make a clear impact. My efforts evolved into a series of tracks, each focusing on a particular aspect of UR, one on the translation of hell/gehenna/sheol; one on Jesus' words about the salvation of all; one on Paul's teachings, etc.
I'll drag them out of the archives and touch them up a bit and post them for constructive criticism.
It might take me a while, but I will try to put a track together, as well.
Looking forward to seeing yours, EW.
Thank you, Gary.
For such a time as this.......... :dsunny:
D.
God's Ultimate Intention.
Eph 1:8-11 In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of ALL THINGS in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
God's purpose is His kind intention, executed through the completion of time- to sum up ALL THINGS IN CHRIST
Col 1:19-22 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death
The means by which all are reconciled is the blood of Christ crucified.
John 12:32 "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL MEN unto me"
This is Christ's own testimony, His gospel.
Phil 2:8-11 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father. This means all will be subjected to Him, for He must reign until all are subjected.
1Cor 15:22-25 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ ALL will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When ALL THINGS are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected ALL THINGS to Him, so that God may be ALL IN ALL.
The purpose of the subjection is reconciliation- so that God will be all in all(everything in everyone), including those who were once adversaries, even as we were once adversaries.
This is also the testimony of the Lord Jesus.
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making ALL THINGS new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
The kingdom of God has been planted in the earth, and will eventually fill all things.
Luke13:20,21 And again He said, "To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? "It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was ALL leavened."
The whole creation will be set free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God
Romans 8:19-22 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
God set this plan in motion before the foundation of the world. It is too high and wide to fully comprehend, but it is fully testified to in the Bible in the scriptures of the prophets and apostles. Peter preached it on the day of Pentecost.
Acts 3:18-21 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His [h]Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of ALL THINGS about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
There are ages yet to come.
Eph 2:3-8 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
There will be an age(a set period of time) for the judgment and correction of the wicked. It cannot last forever or all the scriptures above are untrue. That age will end when the last knee bows, the last tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord, in heaven, on earth and under the earth. When the last adversary is subjected and God has become all in all, death will be abolished, leaving only- life in God and Christ.
The "hell" in the original scriptures is translated from "sheol" around 50 times and "gehenna" 13 times. There is no word equivalent to "hell" in the greek or the hebrew scriptures.
Sheol means "unknown" or "unseen" and refers to the state of the dead.
Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem and symbolizes the burning up of empty works of "Pharisee type" religion.
The lake of fire does not last forever, but "for the age" (greek-aion). As Paul states in Ephesians 1, Gods purpose for the ages (fulness of time) is to sum up all things in Christ. He states in 1 Corinthians 15 that once the adversaries are subjected, death will be abolished, so if there is no more death, and God is all in all..... the second death cannot last forever.
Our God is a consuming fire. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Light is fire to darkness. In the lake of fire the light will penetrate the hearts of the wicked until they are subjected to the love of God. God is love. When God is all in all, all will be in the love of God. This is the kingdom of God.
If the lake of fire, or "second death"(Rev 21:8) lasted forever, how could death be abolished, or God become all in all. Why would Jesus say just three verses before(rev 21:5), "Behold I am making all things new."
This is the full plan of God who created all things and is redeeming all things through Jesus Christ, as he intended from the beginning.
Romans 11:32-36 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
This is the gospel(euaggelion) which means Good News, or Glad Tidings that Jesus, Peter, Paul and John proclaimed, even as did the angels before Christ's birth.
Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings(euaggelion- gospel) of great joy, which shall be to all people.
This was originally longer, but I shortened the commentary to let the scriptures speak as loudly as possible.
wonderful post EW....
Gary....Daniel prophesied that the 'saints' or church would be overcome...just as Israel was.......I feel this is all part of binding
all in disobedience..to show mercy upon all[let he who thinks he is standing..beware,lest he fall] thus saint and sinner alike all
partake of His mercy and grace..and no flesh boast or inherits..but we all inherit through the promised seed/Grace and mercy
through Christ.
the saints overcome;and when the power of the holy people is dashed...the court sit and the kingdom was 'given' unto the saints.
it is our 'helpen with a little help"...nothing will seperate the saints or sinners[all men] from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ.
the heralds announced...Good news of Great joy unto all men..at His birth
Have no fear 'little flock'/church...for I have overcome the world. I have come to the conclusion that the overcoming of the world
is a gift of God through Christ... to His overcome church.....for greater is He that is in you..than he that is in the world.
The Father's undeserved kindness,love,mercy and grace as shown in the Son for the whole creation..in making all things new.....
So Gary..yes the church apologizes for it's failure...but even 'the dashing of the power of the saints" was part of His divine plan.
The gates of hell will not prevail....His spirit of life shall/has entered the dead church......and they shall stand erect...and
the call to 'Come up here" will be seen. And great fear shall fall upon those who rejoiced at the putting to death of the Gospel
of Jesus Christ. The two wittness's Spirit of LOVE and TRUTH shall rise victorious..and all things shall be put into subjection
of Him who is FAITHFUL AND TRUE.
love to you all.... :HeartThrob:
Magnificent, EW!
What will you call it?
I would love to see the version with the commentaries, as well.
I was thinking to focus mine on the theme of His everlasting Love for us, and the contradiction between The concept of Hell and a love that never fails.
Sheila....I do believe most who promote Hell have good intentions, but for those who delight in the thought of others burning forever, because of different theologies, or whatever, I would ask, how can God's message of Love translate into that?
D. :thumbsup:
it doesn't,Dandelion. And when such as them that rejoice with glee....at the destruction/torture of the 'wicked' meet their maker....
they shall be greatly humbled...and never boast in their flesh again. I imagine they shall be very very glad to accept the free
gift of undeserved kindness grace and life through Jesus...and their former objections of 'sinner men' all being saved fall by the wayside
when they find themselves as some of the worst of sinner men.[teaching blasphemy and lies as the word of God/find they have
been false prophets/teacher's as such receiving a heavier judgement]
I have been seriously thinking of a tract like this too.. something short and sweet as they say.. a summary.. an urge to get things as short and as clear as possible..
:Pray:
(side note, also thinking about one for a clear 'last' days, fall of man's world, tract, summary for clear guidance)
tracts for printing which are also summaries for posting in online venues..
when we want to write, it's like a paragraph/pile of words atop ones head.. prayer, and the Spirit, sifting, sifting.. putting the words and thoughts in order..
:Pray:
Quote
.....EW
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: VERY :goodpost:
my 2¢ -
How The Gospel Message Has Lost Some Of Its Glory!
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.. ..And man, male and female, in His own image.
And every thing was very good" [from Genesis 1:1, 27 and 31]. And God himself, surely? Is both Life (itself) and Perfection (without flaw or weakness).
"..The Lord God breathed into his nostrils (the) breath of life, and the man became a living creature" [Genesis 2:7].
But in their heart, mankind has wandered away from perfection and God who is life. (A possibility and side effect of thinking ability?) "For all have sinned" (in the original language - missed the mark) "and come short of the glory of God" [Romans 3:23]. And "the wages" (result) "of sin" (imperfection) "is death" [Romans 6:23]. Imperfection, being the opposite of Life.
"But! The gift of God is eternal life in Jesus!" [Romans 6:23]. "Which works" (the rescue) "was finished from the foundation/creation of the world" [Hebrews 4:3].
Jesus said, "If I be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross?) "I will draw all men to me" [John 12:32]. Another translation puts it like this - "And I" said Jesus, "when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
1 Timothy 4:10 says "we trust in the living God! Who is the Savior of all men! Especially of those who believe." Another version says "who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing." God, our Father, is the savior of all. Perfect (surely?) makes no mistakes. Can lose nothing.
"...He made known to us the mystery of his will, that when the times reach their fulfillment He might gather together all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth" [Ephesians 1:9,10]. "And through Jesus to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven.." [Colossians 1:20].
"Behold," the Book of Revelation says "I make all things new.. the river of life from the throne, as clear as crystal.."
"He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes between nations. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, with none troubling, for the Lord Almighty has spoken" [Micah 4:3,4]. "The cow and the bear shall graze, their young ones shall lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox" [Isaiah 11:7].
Christianity has been made up of human beings, and the gospel message has been passed down through human hands, for nearly two thousand years. That the message has lost some of its glory, and picked up some baggage along the way, is not surprising. As the Gospel (Greek for "good news") has come to be preached and taught, it would seem one of two impossibilities would be true. God is not perfect, certainly not all powerful. Or, God is not all good. But some darkness resides within Him. (And thus He too misses the mark, and can only fade?)
Is it possible we have come to greatly underestimate Him? And His great plan (intent) of salvation and reconciliation (perfection)? "The grave" has been translated to read "hell". Which, surely, casts a great shadow upon His character. And contradicts both the good news and the Holy Bible. The "lower part of the earth" and "the place of the dead" is still the grave.
"Preaching via the Spirit to those awaiting the ark and flood", was in that day, not in a mythical, all hope is lost 'hell'. "These will be coming into eonian (agelasting) chastening/curtailing" has been translated into "these will go away into eternal punishment" [Matthew 25:46 ]. And the phrase "in the deepest depths of darkness, locked into judgment" also, does not equate to 'hell'! A closer translation for judgment, would be "decision" (from the Greek word "krisis"). Even "Gehenna" the city dump has been translated to read 'hell'!
"All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will worship before Thee" Psalm 22:27.
"So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it" [Isaiah 55:11]. "I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and it turns not back, that to Me, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear" [Isaiah 45:23].
"'As surely as I live' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me, every tongue will acknowledge God'" [Romans 14:11]. Ultimately, all humans will repent.. there may even "be weeping and gnashing of teeth" in "outer darkness" but if God says all will bend the knee and all families of the nations will worship (rejoice) before Him, who are we to contradict His Word. His Promise.
In 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, it says, "In Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order - Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then (also) -- the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, having abolished all rule, authority and power.. and the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.. all things having been subdued unto him, that He may be (the) all in all".
From Revelation 21:1,4,5 - "There will be new heavens and a new Earth.. God shall wipe away all tears ...there shall be no more death. Behold, I make all things new."
"..Though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea.." [Psalm 46:2]. Even if man's world were to crash in an hour and fall in a day, "HIS kingdom will never end!" [Luke 1:33].
"We will not fear, for God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble" [Psalm 46:1].
Jesus said "Abide in me" [John 15:4] and "if you abide in My word, truly my disciples ye are, and ye shall know the truth" [John 8:31].
"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.. We may come near, then, with freedom, to the throne of grace, that we may receive kindness, and find grace -- for seasonable help" [James 4:8; Hebrews 4;16] ..for the help and ongoing transformation we need.
"We shall be like Him" [1 John 3:2].
"For the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness (gentleness), faithfulness, humility, and self-control (temperance)" [Galatians 5:22,23].
"God is love" [1 John 4:8].
============================================
Side note/not part of the above:
Psalm 46:1-2 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 To the Overseer. -- By sons of Korah. `For the Virgins.' -- A song.
God [is] to us a refuge and strength, A help in adversities found most surely.
2 Therefore we fear not in the changing of earth, Even in the slipping of mountains Into the heart of the seas.
-------------------------------------------------------
I think graphics.. images can be very powerful and I've been planning to work on some for verses such as these.. I haven't thought of a tract but of two or three sheets rolled up in a roll and tied, or with a rubber band.. for the printouts, for friends, acquaintances and whatnot.. I want a shorter version of these verses to put with an image for facebook and to link to for twitter, etc. If you have a facebook account, in your name or website name, you can post these - the image with some text - as long, pretty much as you want.. Or "create a page" and post them there.. and repost them from time to time.. and on your facebook timeline (home page). Then others can share/repost them.. Both on facebook and twitter.. and in forums wherever one finds them.. I signed up for another large social website a while back, but the name escapes me right now.. And I don't think facebook has a ur (discussion) group..
Marie Glen,
Excellent and concise, you have covered all bases! :thumbsup:
Pat
:iagree:
Brilliant Marie
"So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it" [Isaiah 55:11].
"I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and it turns not back, that to Me, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear" [Isaiah 45:23].
In 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, it says, "In Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order - Christ the first-fruit, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then (also) -- the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, having abolished all rule, authority and power.. and the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.. all things having been subdued unto him, that He may be (the) all in all".
From Revelation 21:1,4,5 - "There will be new heavens and a new Earth.. God shall wipe away all tears ...there shall be no more death. Behold, I make all things new."
"We shall be like Him" [1 John 3:2].
"God is love" [1 John 4:8].
* Some of my favourite verses, among many.
The word lives and the truth is mind-boggling.
True freedom is indescribable.
Have A Great Day.
Gary, I am a big believer in personal testimonies being used as tracts. As you would know the following is from Hannah Whital Smith. I don't know about anyone else, or those in Missouri, but a bunch of scriptures might be fine for church people but not the majority of lost souls.
IMO the best writings on this website and forum are the personal testimonies that many have written, how they came out of darkness into the light of seeing the wonder of His all saving love.
Look at all the lonely people
"In every human face I saw, there seemed to be unveiled before me the story of the misery and anguish caused by the entrance of sin into the world. I knew that God must see this with far clearer eyes than mine, and therefore I felt sure that the sufferings of this sight to Him must be infinitely beyond what it was to me, almost unbearable as that seemed. And I began to understand how it was that the least He could do would be to embrace with untold gladness anything that would help to deliver the being He had created for such awful misery.
It was a never-to-be-forgotten insight into the world's anguish because of sin. How long it lasted I cannot remember, but, while it lasted, it almost crushed me. And as it always came afresh at the sight of a strange face, I found myself obliged to wear a thick veil whenever I went into the streets, in order that I might spare myself the awful realization.
One day I was riding on a tram-car along Market Street, Philadelphia, when I saw two men come in and seat themselves opposite to me. I saw them dimly through in veil, but congratulated myself that it was only dimly, as I was thus spared the wave of anguish that had so often swept over me at the full sight of a strange face. The conductor came for his fare, and I was obliged to raise my veil in order to count it out.
As I raised it I got a sight of the faces of those two men, and with an overwhelming flood of anguish, I seemed to catch a fresh and clearer revelation of the depth of the misery that had been caused to human beings by sin. It was more than I could bear. I clenched my hands and cried out in my soul,
"O, God, how canst thou bear it? Thou mightest have prevented it, but didst not. Thou mightest even now change it, but Thou dost not. I do not see how Thou canst go on living, and endure it."
I upbraided God. And I felt I was justified in doing so. Then suddenly God seemed to answer me.
An inward voice said, in tones of infinite love and tenderness, "He shall see of the travail of His soul and be satisfied.""Satisfied!" I cried in my heart, "Christ is to be satisfied! He will be able to look at the world's misery, and then at the travail through which He has passed because of it, and will be satisfied with the result; If I were Christ, nothing could satisfy me but that every human being should in the end be saved, and therefore I am sure that nothing less will satisfy Him."
And with this a veil seemed to be withdrawn from before the plans of the universe, and I saw that it was true, as the Bible says, that "as in Adam all die-even so in Christ should all be made alive." As was the first, even so was the second. The "all" in one case could not in fairness mean less than the "all" in the other. I saw therefore that the remedy must necessarily be equal to the disease, the salvation must be as universal as the fall.
I saw all this that day on the tram-car on Market street, Philadelphia –not only thought it, or hoped it, or even believed it–but knew it. It was a Divine fact. And from that moment I have never had one questioning thought as to the final destiny of the human race.
God is the Creator of every human being, therefore He is the Father of each one, and they are all His children; and Christ died for every one, and is declared to be "the propitiation not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2). However great the ignorance therefore, or however grievous the sin, the promise of salvation is positive and without limitations. If it is true that "by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation," it is equally true that "by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." To limit the last "all men" is also to limit the first. The salvation is absolutely equal to the fall. There is to be a final "restitution of all things," when "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Every knee, every tongue-words could not be more embracing.
The how and the when I could not see; but the one essential fact was all I needed-somewhere and somehow God was going to make every thing right for all the creatures He had created. My heart was at rest about it forever."
I love her testimony...TY
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I never heard that before! I have a book around here somewhere by her! Now I'm interested! ...Very beautiful!! :smile:
Hello! Marie mentioned Facebook and got me thinking! Tentmaker needs a Facebook page, and then verses, testimonies, links to TM articles can all be posted daily. Anyone who is into marketing uses Facebook to promote their business, so this would be the fastest and easiest way to promote UR. I'm from a catholic background (and I'm gathering I'm somewhat younger than most of you all) and we don't have "tracts" so my only experience with getting handed a pamphlet is to be suspicious/wary and throw it away. Just my opinion :)
I also agree with Rhodes that bible verses can be used for people who are already Christian but everyone else likely will not care that we are quoting "2000 year old letters" so a different approach may be warranted. I have many atheist and agnostic friends and they are just happy I don't think they will burn in hell for eternity, but their interest in UR really stops there. It's the old "ears to hear" thing again :)
Short and sweet:
All from KJV
God is love (1 John 3:8)
Love never fails (1 Corinthians 13:8)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
Marie Glen
Quote:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I never heard that before! I have a book around here somewhere by her! Now I'm interested! ...Very beautiful!! :smile:
Gary has Hannah Whital Smith's missing chapters posted on this site somewhere...ahh, here it is- http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/ThirdEpochInMyLife.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/ThirdEpochInMyLife.html)
Her autobiography is called The Unselfishness of God...and she even named a chapter by that title as well. It is her crowning chapter which contains the testimony above, but the Publishers have decided in their "unbiased" opinion that the unselfishness of God is not something we want people to know about....so they leave out 3 chapters of her autobiography when they publish her book.
I hunted an original first edition(containing all her chapters) down and paid $500USD for it gladly..actually I paid it as a protest against the spirit of selfishness that pervades the Church.
[This is my opinion only] :winkgrin:
Personally I do not think we need to apologise to the world. God has used the fear of Hell for a purpose. He always sets up or "allows" to be set up, opposites. There is still a judgement to come that people need to be warned about. No it is not eternal burnings in a literal hell....nor in a literal lake of fire.
And we know that it is God who draws us and God who grants repentance unto life. It is God who ordains each one of us to come to Jesus in His timing...which of course includes our will/choice.
We also know that the god of this world blinds the minds of those who are perishing. 2 Cor 4
We know that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. 1Cor 1
And we know that they will not believe unless someone goes to them with the gospel. Rom 10
We know that God has blinded the eyes and deafened the ears until He chooses to do otherwise...nevertheless we still preach because there may be one soul who He grants repentance to in a crowd of blind people.
We know he has allowed the tares from Augustine to be planted and to prosper for 1500 years now...He could have stopped it right there in 500AD...but instead HE allows the contrary thing to grow up with the wheat.....meanwhile men grope in the darkness trying to find meaning and life.
The Good news to all people of a Saviour and Lord being born this day in Bethlehem who is Christ the Lord falls on deaf ears unless He is bringing that one to Himself now.
Suffering people in Missouri and everywhere because they are out of work and in debt to the slave masters(bankers) is all a part of God bringing people to HImself.
Many will suicide and take drugs etc to try to escape the torment of anxiety and depression that they labour under daily. What can we do?
A tract? Yes..it is a handy tool for some.
The Pharisees were angry with Peter and John because " they preached in Jesus the resurrection of the dead."
Peter preached remission of sins through faith in Jesus Christ when at Cornelius' house.
Paul preached at Athens the God Who made all things, Who appointed a day when He will judge the living and dead by the Man who died for all sinners and was raised from death. Paul preached repentance and faith toward Jesus.
None of them preached about UR when speaking to unbelievers.
Christ crucified and risen from the grave is the good news that "reconciled -to -God-people" need to hear in order to receive the conciliation.
Apologising and preaching about the error of ET to lost sinners is to me, not the Gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. Of course it will be good news to those who were raised in some form of Christianity and have figured out that that god is a monster that needs to be kept away from.
As long as the main thrust of the message is Jesus giving His life as a ransom for lost sinners so they can be forgiven all their sins, then the UR message on the end may be a bonus....or it may just get in the way of them repenting.
Paul reasoned with Agrippa about self control, righteousness and the judgement to come.....he did not let him off the hook with, 'you will get saved anyway one day'. And even then Agrippa only said, "You almost persuade me to become a Christian".
We are to " always be ready to give an answer for the hope we have to those who ask " ---what is our hope?
I could see offering a sort of "apology" or explanation, but then I very much like the rest of your post Rhodes. AMEN!
I don't tire of saying; the heart of the Gospel is Jesus, crucified and risen again - believe on Him! Again, Amen!
Indeed the heart is what Paul said about not needing any special words, other than the fact that Christ died and rose again. A problem for the dedicated Jews. A major problem for the mental reasoning and knowledge seeking Greeks.
Resurrection is a dirty word to many- however; I.M.O in their current state of ignorance they protect themselves from the unknown.
The truth will liberate mankind for ever.
My concern is that people already preach this. The only difference is that people believe that the wicked will be resurrected to be tortured forever. You are right that UR is not the gospel persay it is the mystery of the gospel. The final goal of everything. I think we should at enforce God's intention which many paint God as a vindictive monster.
IMO, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes the salvation of all. That is why it is good news. The mystery of the gospel IS the gospel, and it includes several different things, including the etrnal destiny of Israel(Rom 11:25&Eph 3:1-6); the salvation of all(Eph 1:9-11); Christ in you the hope of glory(Col 1:26,27), the mystery of the brise(Eph 5;Rev 19:7 Rev 21:2; Heb 12:18-29)
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him -- to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen. (Romans 16:25-27 NIV)
Paul clearly writes His gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ are according to the mystery.
Jesus taught this as well, preaching the gospel as mysteries of the kingdom in parables, "That seeing they might not perceive and hearing they might not understand".
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'You will keep on hearing, [g]but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.'
16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
What did they desire to see that we see and they didnt? The resolution of the whole thing, the gospel of the kingdom of God and the redemption of the whole creation.
I think a lot of the problem with false doctrine is the attempt to remove the mystery from the gospel and to break it down and package it up in systematic theology......Like making a statue of God and working the jaws like a puppet, the organizations of men create abominations that make desolate.
The salvation of all is the milk of the word. It is a basic foundation of the gospel. It is impossible to go on into maturity without it, but understanding it does not mean someone is mature.
It is milk.
A deeper mystery is the mystery of the Bride, the wedding supper and union with Christ- the marriage in which we all become one- no longer carnal and divided, and that is a problem that it is clearly apparent, the salvation of all does not fix, again- because it is milk.
In Hebrews chapter 6 Paul outlines 7 basic foundations of the oracles of Christ without which a believer cannot go on into maturity....
He is not saying a believer cannot be mature in love without them- He IS saying they cannot be mature in the priesthood of Christ and His gospel without them.
The 6th and 7th- resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment involve the salvation of all, 1 Cor 15 being the most complete exposition on them in the scriptures.
The first, and central one is the doctrine of Christ. It is the central and core truth of the gospel and involves who Jesus is(Son, Savior, Lord, Messiah) and what He died for(the redemption of the creation, many sons unto glory, the salvation of each and all, reconciliation by grace through the blood of His cross), and how that effects each of us as disciples.
None of the other 6 branches of the lampstand can be rightly related unless that central one remains the core and most important one, but imo, no one can go on into maturity as a minister of Christ until all six are in their proper place.
Quote from: Rhodes on November 04, 2015, 06:14:49 AM
Marie Glen Quote:thumbsup: :thumbsup: I never heard that before! I have a book around here somewhere by her! Now I'm interested! ...Very beautiful!! :smile:
Gary has Hannah Whital Smith's missing chapters posted on this site somewhere...ahh, here it is- http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/ThirdEpochInMyLife.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/ThirdEpochInMyLife.html)
Her autobiography is called The Unselfishness of God...and she even named a chapter by that title as well. It is her crowning chapter which contains the testimony above, but the Publishers have decided in their "unbiased" opinion that the unselfishness of God is not something we want people to know about....so they leave out 3 chapters of her autobiography when they publish her book.
I hunted an original first edition(containing all her chapters) down and paid $500USD for it gladly..actually I paid it as a protest against the spirit of selfishness that pervades the Church.
Wow!! Imagine that! Printing someone's work and leaving out parts you don't like! :o (shock and dismay!)
Thanks for the link! I will be reading that and saving the link! :smile:
Quote from: Gary Amirault on October 26, 2015, 06:09:19 PM
...time to reveal the full gospel of peace to all nations. And an invitation to those who are hungry for the Kingdom of Jesus. I have a friend who now wants to go into the hi-ways and byways to give food and a short tract to those he meets. He wants to give them hope. I've been wanting just the right tract myself to give to people in our community who are falling through the cracks during this time of recession in Missouri. We have a lot of hurting people here. So does every community.
I hope those of you who feel you have a writing gift to take a crack at producing a short tract like this. Perhaps some of you who have graphics, printing, web skills may offer some help. And those of you who have time may find ways to get this tract and others out there into discussion board, blogs, youtube, facebook etc. I think it's time.
I think Gary's right..
I think all things are the way they are (even tho within His margins or borders) because God in His infinite wisdom, not only endowed thinking ability, which includes (sooner or later) the ability to make choices, but in His wisdom is, and has allowed mankind's choices to run their course.
What better way to prove His point? So human nature being what it is, the Message / Gospel has become diluted,
and even worse, corrupted! :sigh: gulp
But also, UR, I think has been gathering steam and momentum.. I know quite a few people (especially for being such a semi/large part hermit). I know more non believers and ppl on the fence than I know believers. And I know your average person cannot believe the gospel as its delivered and preached! And not simply because they're sinners / "miss the mark", which can be a convenient scapegoat.. No it's because it [1] lacks logic and [2] really does compromise God's character (as preached).
But tell them U.R.? And they're nodding their heads. Printed things, I think, are great, especially with a good image to help communicate the point.. So people can remember the message! let's face it, darkness is pouring forth and insisting on its lies 24/7.. Yep, I think it's time..
I say that because I've been a bit 'in the closet' as they say.. But I'm coming out publicly much more so - on social networks, in christian forums.. and in life!
Years ago I sent home made tracts along with Christmas cards for a couple of years in a row. And I got good results. And now I think I will be doing that this year with the U.R. message. And just writing letters, when the Spirit moves.. And I really do think a facebook group would be great, but would perhaps need a whole group to start it.. rather than an individual and then scouting for members.. but some members and then maybe some scouting.. Twitter's a good place too, to post UR lines and links..
:Peace2:
Great John. Yes I agree, and I was wrong to say that Paul did not preach UR. Of course the mystery revealed to him was what he had not been able to see as a Pharisee because of the narrowness of their view of God's love. Paul saw that Jesus took away the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile and men and women, that God's salvation is for all the families of the earth.
I guess I was reacting out of my own impatience with people who are still outside, though they are reconciled as far as God is concerned. I was reading Preston Eby again this morning where he said,
QuoteWhile men who understand nothing of the plan of God go rushing far and wide, desperately trying to convert the world before it is eternally too late, the almighty God in matchless serenity sits on His glorious throne, beholding with joy His on-going purpose of the ages as it develops in magnificent harmony, and sends forth His Spirit at just the proper time to call every man in his own order.
I guess that in our level of immaturity, where we are at, we will share with others our understanding of the Gospel, which may not be fully correct yet, but thankfully God is in our spirit and our words regardless, working according to His power and purpose for that one.
Mature me Oh Lord and give me understanding!
Yes indeed Lord, mature us :o)
As I have watched how we as universalist(self included) can be so divided over the same things that ETrs are divided over it has of course become clearer than ever before that knowledge is not enough. The world will not receive our GOOD NEWS because we can teach it from 6 different theological perspectives. Only the Holy Spirit can cause the gospel to flourish in anytime and place. Come Holy Spirit!
There may be much agreement in all this, but sort of a sorting through the nuances as is often the case :)/ looking at it from unique perspectives/different sides of the same coin.
Sometimes I'm a simple (simplistic) man (cue country song), and it may indeed involve more than I see right now; but seems to me that basically the mystery of the Gospel (and HOPE for the World) as Paul preached it, was Jesus. Jesus as Messiah, revealed - when in times past, had not been revealed, but hidden - thus a mystery. So Paul was preaching "believe on Jesus" (grace) rather than "follow the Law" (works/rules/requirements). :2c:
Back to, in my view, the primary focus of the Gospel is Christ, crucified, risen again (as Paul says here
1 Cor. 15:1-4,
"Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures . . . ".
Then many other "outer" layers of it, which would include all right doctrine, including UR. Another :2c:.
But again, the "mystery" being Christ, who had been hidden prior to His advent. (And a third :2c:, which equals 6, the number of man - which may not be a good sign. :Peace2: )
Jabcat,
You are a wise and funny guy!
Quote from: Patinak on November 07, 2015, 06:20:14 AM
Jabcat,
You are a wise and funny guy!
:notworthy:
:handshake:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2015, 10:24:27 PM
Yes indeed Lord, mature us :o)
As I have watched how we as universalist(self included) can be so divided over the same things that ETrs are divided over it has of course become clearer than ever before that knowledge is not enough. The world will not receive our GOOD NEWS because we can teach it from 6 different theological perspectives. Only the Holy Spirit can cause the gospel to flourish in anytime and place. Come Holy Spirit!
Exactly. :gthumbsup:
This thread was started to come up with a printed tract as a way to share the 'real' good news with others.
A couple of years ago, when I was on my knees, praying to God for my daughter's salvation, God answered my prayer (differently than I expected, of course), and brought me to the Tentmaker website. There is no doubt in my mind that it was His doing. How grateful I am for Gary and all of you others that put together and work and post on this site. The unveiling of the 'real' good news has given me peace. Without peace, it is impossible to obey His command to love others. I KNOW THIS: I am just one small fraction of one small fraction of the people that are touched by this place.
I guess what I am trying to say is that although the work (of spreading the good news) never ends, there may not be a better tract, than this living tract.
Love,
Pat
whatever we 'bind' on earth is bound in heaven. the man/doctrine churches can bind men......and hold them back from the
the Glorious freedom of the Sons of God. whatever you loose on earth..is loosed in heaven. Setting captives free from error
and missing the mark of the HIGH CALLING IN CHRIST...is setting such free into the glorious freedom of the sons of God.
Proclaim liberty in Christ to your brother's....
manmade doctrines/error..are as tares...hay rubble wood...that is burned. The angels..bind the tares into bundles for burning.
manmade religiosity/error burned up by His spirit of truth......saves through fire. and sets free.
three were thrown into the furnace of fire...and there was a fourth that appeared among them as a son of God....the fire
burned that with which they were bound..........
.
I re read this tract by Gary Amirault a few days ago I have a printed copy that came in a book I purchased. Tis a good word!
http://tentmaker.org/articles/adam_succeeded_will_christ.pdf (http://tentmaker.org/articles/adam_succeeded_will_christ.pdf)
Quote from: Gary Amirault on October 26, 2015, 06:09:19 PM
I have been planning for a long time, but have never quite found the words, to write a short tract that I can post or give out about the Victorious Gospel. The tract would be an apology to the world on behalf of Christians; how the church has misrepresented Jesus Christ and His Victorious Gospel; an apology to the world for the suffering misguided Christians have heaped upon the world. A brief explanation of what happened, how the church steered in the wrong direction. A brief explanation of the Victorious Gospel using a string of Scriptures. A brief explanation how our Bibles have been corrupted. A brief explanation of why Jesus chose to hide the truly good news through this church age and how it's now time to reveal the full gospel of peace to all nations. And an invitation to those who are hungry for the Kingdom of Jesus. I have a friend who now wants to go into the hi-ways and byways to give food and a short tract to those he meets. He wants to give them hope. I've been wanting just the right tract myself to give to people in our community who are falling through the cracks during this time of recession in Missouri. We have a lot of hurting people here. So does every community.
I hope those of you who feel you have a writing gift to take a crack at producing a short tract like this. Perhaps some of you who have graphics, printing, web skills may offer some help. And those of you who have time may find ways to get this tract and others out there into discussion board, blogs, youtube, facebook etc. I think it's time.
I study Ancient Greek (it's the fourth year since I've started) at my school, both language and literature, best marks of all my classroom, if any help is needed, I'm here. I've also studied Hebrew, got a degree in Aramaic (30/30).
I like Church History as well, and I studied their doctrines during my philosophy studies at school. I have many books about this topic.
If you need any help, I'm here.
Hope you'll succeed (Though the only one who really succeeds is Christ).
Amen, Sheila, Patinak, Jabcat.. Lorenszo.. and all!! Some great posts in this thread!!
I think many, many, people are seeking UR! And I also think many people are searching for good down to earth, solid truth. To answer their many questions they have about life. Like why is life as it is? And all the answers of course can come via God's Holy Spirit and God's Word, the Truth.
I have a strong conviction that like leaven, a little untruth leavens the lump and robs the truth of some of it convincing POWER. I also have a strong passion for truth and cannot rest until I feel I understand something.
I was never much taught by churches. The spirit of chuches just didn't seem to jive with the Lord's Spirit of flowing, outreaching, and embracing love. After 16 years of being pretty much a spiritual hermit, studying, learning and listening on my own (twenty years ago) my son asked me two questions. And those two questions changed my life. Even though I was a very solid believer already.
The questions he asked were - "Why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great, we get to be an ant farm?" (Oiye so cynical, and right where so many people are today!)
I was not satisfied with my answers to him, so I prayed for better understanding and answers and they came back to me immediately, pretty much like "bam!" ..bam! and bam! And I have to tell you, my socks were knocked off, and they've been knocked off ever since.
This is what I learned and am now convinced of.. The first thing being that God can only be perfect, therefor the 'end' result of all this (human history, etc) can onLy be the very best one possible. Also that God iS life, itself, the life force, breath, and spark of life, who, or what else could be? "In the beginning - God." (And also Perfection, or He too would fade.)
Before He began His work of creating He could see all possibilities stretched out before his perception, and He has done all things, just the way He has in order to bring about the best of all possibilities.
He chose to endow thinking ability. But with thinking ability, comes, sooner or later, the ability to make choices. (Even if currently they are so very limited.) Yet, if God is Life and Perfection, as soon as someone chooses any teeny, tiny thing in thought, word or deed, that differs from what God chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life. Hence the world and life as we presently know it. When He endowed thinking ability to angel and man, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilites 'came to be'. (But what was His other choice? No rational creatures ever?)
Ever since then, all have suffered. And some horribly. But God -- being life -- lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur. Why(?) would He put Himself through all that!! Because He's not making robots, or an ant farm, but His very own family, and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Unbreakable, because deeply etched upon every heart, mind, and psyche, will be the full understanding of good from evil / life from death. (Life from nonlife.) With the GWT judgment 'day' being a Great Day of Review (of all human history, etc) reinforcing and driving home God's truth lesson (proved by this drama we call life).
This chewing on the fruit of knowing good from evil is an unavoidable journey and lesson. If there's to be thinking ability that is.
The whole thing ended with a question (to me, it seemed). Why did God wait so long - He is infinitely patient - before creating the universe and man and woman, only creating them not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but after it had matured into open revolt, trickery and sedition? Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did!
Surely God wastes nothing and He is writing and shall write (deeply engrave) upon every heart and mind, the full and complete understanding that one cannot wander from God. For that can only ever end in a wisp of self destructive smoke. This being what apocalypse is, for the fall (crash and burn, so to speak) unveils the truth. Many people instinctively know man's world is headed for trouble/apocalypse. And many of the questions thay have, very much, include this.
Along with UR, understanding how life became what it is (rather than thinking it merely proceeded from a less than kind, or even heartless, God) and understanding His intent and life's purpose (the Kingdom of God, much mentioned by Jesus, in us yes, but surely, also outer) - His Great Purpose/Design - very much sets people free. And gives a great sense of stability and roots with a very solid foundation underfoot.
I guess I have this idea that the whole truth and nothing but truth - could go a long way in making UR go viral. ... :2c: :smile:
God bless!!
God bless all of you! For me, this place is a great scurce of hope. :dsunny:
:thumbsup:
:2thumbs: :HeartThrob:
Great thread.
"Let your light shine..." In other words, Gary go forward with what's in your heart, God will have select others assist with whatever He intends to accomplish. Such good stuff. Reading all this I recalled that it was thru tentmaker I was initially confronted with UR 7 years ago... a tract can be a small seed, and sometimes that is all that's needed.
Personally, I get excited by the idea that as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive". I was sick to death of religious knowledge and God brought me to face my own beliefs which culminated in the statement "if you started this whole mess and then have the audacity to eternally condemn most of your creation who died through adam, then I want nothing to do with a God like that." I'm sure many here may have a similar story but the point is it was a very scary place to be, and this truth is more than just a nod to a doctrine for me. It is my freedom and joy, and I believe the eventual joy of the whole world as well.
So many good things in the thread. But still all different points of light as thru a prism. The light of your desire can be parsed into different aspects, all good and all with merit, but shine the light. Your light. His light in you. I for one can say it has blessed me personally and been used to bring Grace and life. So thank you! :) and pursue that spark of life planted within.
Cory in kzoo
What a :goodpost: :goodpost: Cory in kzoo! :dsunny:
...and Eduard too!
Awesome confirmation for this site and forum too..
This a tract I wrote a while ago for the purpose of introducing UR. I wrote it mainly for people with some fundamental knowledge according to basic contemporay Christian religion, just to get a person looking in the right direction in the scriptures. It might be too long for a typical tract, but it is shorter than a booklet, and I tried to write in a style that is conversational, slightly humourous and not factually intimidating.
Dead Is Not Normal
To hear most folks talk, you would think that for a man to be dead is "normal". It is "the way it is", it is "the way it always was", and it is "the way it always will be".
This would be no surprise from unbelievers. Lost here in this dark world of chaos and confusion. But when a person comes into the faith of Jesus Christ they should be taught that death is not normal. In the beginning, Adam was not "created dead". The human race was created alive, with a life that had the potential of extremely long, perhaps even endless duration.
People have a very difficult time with the idea that the "normal" perspective in a Christian life ought to be the perspective of an endless life, but Jesus said "He that believes in me, tho he die, yet shall he live". and "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever". Paul said, "If anyone is in Christ Jesus he is a new creation. Old things have passed away. Behold(see, comprehend), all things have become new!"
My, My, My.
Christians have a hard time believing that it is "normal" that everyone could live forever, yet they have no problem believing that most people will "die forever" in a lake of fire, an endless "second death"- awaiting them when they awake from slumber to face the One who created them so He could torment them forever and ever.
You may think me extreme or perhaps even sacriligeous, but I assure you I am not!
Jesus Christ is My Lord! He died for me and I believe God raised him from the dead and HE LIVES!
But I don't believe the plan of God ends with most of humanity in eternal torment.
Think about it. Any discomfort that that lasts forever in unconscionable. Remember that back ache? When you threw out your sacroiliac? After a week of agony when you moved and only misery when you lay still, you screamed inside your head for God to have mercy -or just kill you. Remember that horrible flu bug? You threw your guts up for three days and wanted to die. Well that was nothing.
Imagine 10 billion years with one hand in a fire. Now your whole body. Oh yeah, you are next to Grandma(who was Jewish what a shame) and your nephew Louie(died in a car accident at 18, shouldna been drinking.....Thats the breaks!) Grandma got 84 years to get Christ (but didn't) and Louie only got 18- can you feature that? Boy, God is an arbitrary master, you know? Almost a trickster- and you kno what? I've heard some preachers say God plans who is going to fail and be tormented forever BEFORE HE EVER CREATES THEM WITHIN THEIR MOTHERS WOMB!
Whew!, I'll tell ya. You better not make the wrong turn or even believe the wrong thing or you might find out what endless agony is! I even heard some other preachers say that God can't do anything about billions of His children going to hell forever. They say God put a lock and key on His own hands and put these on limits His own plan, because He so respects our independent will(But yet, He did plan it that way knowing how it would turn out, didnt He?).
The story is He so wants us to want Him on our own, that He would rather see us scream forever in a boiling lake of lava, slidin over one another, man woman and child....Screaming like they were on a roller coaster full of zombies in the middle of the Great San Francisco Fire before tumbling through the Great San Andreas fault into the depths of a molten earth.
Funny that word fault. Does the word fault imply a crack in something or is it a crack in something that creates faults. I mean, if I am cracked am I at fault? Or is the crack my fault? or, or, Wowo I am getting confused like a kid who's been spinning in a teacup ride for 16 thousand years. Whew, talk about dry heaves. Threw up all my insides and now, ten thousand years later, nothing but lava comes out. Whehew! Talk about heartburn!
Really. Is that God? Somebody should ask, "What Would Jesus Do about all those souls in torment, leave them forever? I mean, I thought He said "I didnt come to judge the world, I came to save it."
FAIL.
I thought, "God so loved the world".
I thought Jesus said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me!"
I thought He prayed as they killed Him(C'mon, killing the son of God- it doesn't get much worse than that!), "Father forgive them they dont know what they are doing".
But still many think He only forgives the people who love Him. Hmmmm. These thoughts raise some serious conundrums
Maybe dead IS normal and Christianity is just a lie. Anybody who can tell me to love my enemies and to bless those that call me names and do hurtful things to me, but then turns around and torments all His enemies in a lake of fire forever and forever is really NOBODY I WANT TO KNOW, and I will tell you what!
If the only thing that will keep me outta Hell is being afraid of Hell- it aint gonna work! Because I am not nearly as afraid of Hell as I am of a schizophrenic God who will torture billions in Hell forever after telling the whole world that He is LOVE, and He is LIGHT and that anybody who wants to be like Him has to love, forgive and feed their enemies!
The Jesus I want to believe in- He wouldnt just sit by and watch, knowing EVERYTHING THROUGH AND THROUGH LIKE HE DOES, and let us, WHO ARE ONLY THERE BY HIS MERCY IN THE FIRST PLACE watch too, while most of the people who ever lived in the world (yea a whole lot of evil people but also a whole lot of just stupid ignorant folks who were born in some backwoods era before Jesus was even BORN) are screaming and begging for mercy and a chance to get right.
I mean, that is hard. Real hard. Wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy. Really.
But I was thinkin about this. I have been readin the Bible and it says some strange things. The Bible says ..... GOD IS LOVE. Yes it does, right there in one of the letters of John, that sweet little guy the Lord loved so much. The Bible also says, GOD IS LIGHT AND IN HIM THERE IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. Yep, John says that too and he also says "if any man hates his brother he is in darkness still....". How could leaving billions in torment foever be considered anything other than hate?
Someone may counter with, "FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE!"
So how can God be all three things! Well, this is what I'm thinkin.....
If God is love and love is light and light is fire and hate is darkness and God told us to forgive our enemies and bless them, then maybe LOVE IS THE LIGHT AND THE LIGHT OF LOVE IS A FIRE THAT BURNS UP THE SELFISH DARKNESS IN FOLKS UNTIL THEY FINALLY RECEIVE THE LIGHT TOO- AND "GET IT"! Just like all we, who know we were once sinners but have through grace(unmerited favor), been forgiven and transformed.
Translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His glorious light.
My Bible says
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now, we have been told that all the billions who hated him or just didnt believe Him or just never heard of Him are gonna bow down just before they get thrown into the lake of fire.... You know, a sort of cosmic eternal, "I TOLD YOU SO" from God before He throws them into the everlasting pain of an eternity of agonizing unending death.....(so much for respecting our independent will). We've been told that not everyone can live forever, but everyone can "die forever".
But my Bible says, "For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL will be made alive."
And I am not kiddin you! It is right there in 1 Cor 15:22. Then it goes on to say that God- after He has subjected every adversary(subjected means to bow the knee, does it not?), He will destroy death, because death is the last enemy, and that then He will become ALL IN ALL! That means everything in everyone, including those who were formerly His adversaries....You know, Like WE were ALSO once formerly His adversaries.
Well some folks say that all the enemies can't be subjected and that can't be true because it is too good to be true, but that is what the Bible says- and I think thats why they call it the GOOD NEWS! There are other verses that say this same thing!
Look here, and read it carefully please .....
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.(Col 1)
And here....
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.(Eph 1:9-11)
Now, as I read it I get the idea that there is a mystery to be solved here. So I set about solving it, and I found a few things. I read a few things. And I was given a few insights by others who sought the answer to this mystery before me.
God's purpose in Christ is a "kind intention".
His master plan unfolds over the "fulness of times"- meaning 1)all the ages that went before, 2)this age we are in now, and 3)ages that are to come, like the "millienial age"(or whatever, we dont kno all the details, but Paul says there will be "ages to come", you can read that in Ephesians 2:7).
And Paul says this mystery is one that God HAS ALREADY SHOWN US (but we wasnt all lookin) and Paul calls it THE SUMMING UP OF EVERYTHING(and that includes everyone) IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH in Jesus Christ. Why, even the old King James calls it "the gathering together into one of ALL things in Christ"(Eph 1;9-11)
Well, let's sum it up my friend!....The word of God helps us solve mysteries, but some mysteries can be difficult to see through, especially God's mysteries. That is why Jesus said something like, "I will speak to you in parables and show you mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world so that people that think they see wont be able to see and those who know they are blind can learn something that is hiddden from kno-it-alls"
Well ok, that is what I think they call a paraphrase, but anyway read it yourself. You will get the idea.
And I kno a lot of preachers want us to think they know everything(at least everything we need them to tell us so we will know just what they want us to know)- but listen to this and tell me what YOU think.
"For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Well now, how can all things be from Him and through Him AND TO HIM.....one big ol circle..... If the circle gets stopped dead in its tracks in an eternal hell?
Will the circle, be unbroken by and by Lord, by and by..... :o)
Well, I dont know too much but I know one plus one equalls two and ALL is ALL or ALL aint ALL and there are a Hell of a lot of ALLs in these verses........... OOPS! Did I say Hell?
Well thats one very mistranslated word, and it isn't even scripturally real. Sheol yes! 53 times. Gehenna yes! 11 times. The lake of fire Yes! 2 times. Hell No! (oops, there I said it again).
There was no Hell till King James got hold of the Bible. They talked funny back in merry ol England and cut each others heads off over what each other believed differently -just like their Danish, Viking, Celt and Angle forefathers did before them....O yea, By the way, Hel was the goddes of death among the Vikings and thats where the word came from.
King James, He had a crown to keep, but me, I am just a simple man.
I have been summin it up in my mind, and when I read this.....
And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making ALL things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
............What I come up with is that the lake of fire was prepared make people thirsty for living water. Come on now. It is not that crazy. We already read that death is going to be destroyed when the last adversaries are all subjected in 1 Corinthians 15!
Now we have all done some bad things that one time or another. The Bible states this and we mostly all believe it. And I have had the fire of God get on me about some of those things, and it is no joke! And I know that it sounds real bad. Indeed! It can get real bad if you get real stubborn when God is tryin to turn the lights on. It is better to fess up and be washed in the blood of the Lamb now, everyday, and learn to live in love, like Jesus. "No greater love has a man than to lay down His life for His friends."
When the light shines so bright it begins to get into all the cracks(or faults, or whatever) and starts to blow away all those lies and to dig up and expose all that hate and all those murders that were done in hearts without guns and all those prejudices and all that indifference to the suffering of the world's helpless and all that egoin', preening, self-important know-it-all posturing.....It is a fire to darkness, sin and selfishness.
When God punishes it may get ugly for awhile, but He is a Father, and His judgments are for our correctin. He will not just destroy His creation and watch it suffer forever, so if Jesus says "Behold, I am making ALL THINGS NEW!", then I gotta believe Him! I gotta believe that EVERY KNEE WILL BOW and EVERY TONGUE CONFESS the Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father..... and then they will be shining in the light of that fire with their darknesses all burnt up by the intensity of the love and light of God. What would God gain if they, full of hate and resentment, are cast into eternal torment. That wouldn't be "To the glory of God the Father". Would it? What do you think? God gave you a brain didn't He? And the evidence to the contrary is all over the Bible. But we only have a few minutes here so....
Listen, if God is love and God is light and the light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it then light is fire to darkness and it will be the darkness in people that got burned up in the lake of fire, or gehenna, or hell or whatever you wanna call it..... But God cant torment a bunch of folk forever and at the same time gather all things together into one in Christ..... And then Jesus can't gather all men unto Him and make all things new! So then what good would the bible be if you cant believe all those verses? Do you think Jesus was careless with His words? Was Paul? I noticed in Phil 2:9-11 it says every knee will bow ON EARTH, and UNDER THE EARTH and IN HEAVEN- and I think thats everything! The Bible says that in Ephesians 1 and Colossians 1 too!
So,
I dont think bein dead is normal. And I dont think being dead will last forever. And God did not create us dead.....Jesus said God is the God of the living- so how is He gonna be the God of all those folks- if they are like the walkin dead, for ever in the second death, or Hell, or the lake of fire, or whatever.
I tell you what, I think I will take Jesus' word for it, and believe Him!
IF I BE LIFTED UP FROM THE EARTH I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME!
FATHER FORGIVE THEM THEY DONT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING!
BEHOLD, I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW!
Sounds like the Good News Paul and Isaiah and Jesus taught. Oh yeah and there is the angel who appeared to the shepherds to announce the coming of the King...
"Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to ALL people. For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger."
And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying:
"Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!"
Now that sounds like that "kind intention" Paul was talking about as "the mystery" in Ephesian 1. And I think John saw it fulfilled in the revelation he received from Jesus..... Listen as you read this.
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
"Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
Now that is every tongue confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father!
Well, I went and I told my old preacher about all this summin up I been doin.
He told me I was goin to bust Hell w-i-i-i-d-e open!
Oh well, I guess wherever I go I will be in good company because I think Paul and John learned from Jesus and I think Jesus believed He came to save the whole universe. They all taught that in the end we will definitely all be together and God will be ALL IN ALL. As Paul wrote to the believers at Rome, "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory forever, amen".
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For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For "He has put all things under His feet."But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:25-28
Great post John !, well worth the read!! God has truly blessed you !, Where there is love , there is Life ! :HeartThrob:
I agree with Rose.. and my favorite part was "light and love being the fire that burns away (consumes) all darkness and selfishness"!
And I'm a great fan of logic.. I would think it alone would convince the staunchest hell believer.. And all the verses nail it securely in place! :thumbsup: :banana:
Thanks! I hope some one will spread it around. I edited all the typos and the butchered sentences today.
Magnificent, EW!
Love the perspective!
Maybe post this one and the one you did before it on your own website for now?
I am sure it will be very useful.
:cloud9:
Yes! That post was just what I was talking about. :iagree: :iagree: :gimmefive: :dsunny:
More and more I've been thinking of putting U.R. (and other Biblical things) in images. One of my latest is an image outlining the ancient Hebrew holy days, and how (in my opinion) they prophecy the two advents of Jesus.
I thought it turned out okay! ..so I thought I'd post it here as an idea on how images can communicate.. and be passed along on social media.. etc.
But you have to scroll down to the 2nd image.. and click on it to enlarge
http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html
:Peace2: later!
Hi Gary....
Here is another Bible verses that I believe might be helpful:
Philippians 1:6English Standard Version (ESV)
6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
I don't think it was mentioned here, yet.
D.
for whom does the bell toll..?
When Paul tried to tell the synagogue of Thessalonica the good news that Messiah had come, they "contradicted and blasphemed". Heck, they caused a riot and "attacked the house of Jason"!
They were unable to believe the good news of Messiah.
Now when Paul got to the next town he preached in, at the synagogue of Berea, "they were more noble, for they searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were so".
Is it too good to be true that God wishes all to be saved? Is it too hard to believe that His Word will return to Him fully accomplishing all which He desires and intends? Is it possible for a person, or persons, to conceive of a better outcome than God Almighty does? Is it possible for Him to be less than perfect? Does perfect lose anything? Make mistakes? Paul wrote to Timothy (1 Tim 4:10) "..to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe". And Jesus Himself said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth" (on the cross!) "will draw all men unto me". Is it really too good to be true? Is it truly easier to believe He will lose the majority of mankind? Will consign to annihilation, or worse, forever, even those who never heard the "good news"?
"Love never fails" - 1 Corinthians 13:8. Never, fails. All, should at least "search the scriptures" to see if it is really so. But! We need go back to the original words. The King's men (and others) have had a couple of preconceived notions. What does it hurt to search the scriptures to see what is so?
Quote from: marie glen on January 28, 2016, 04:19:58 PM
More and more I've been thinking of putting U.R. (and other Biblical things) in images. One of my latest is an image outlining the ancient Hebrew holy days, and how (in my opinion) they prophecy the two advents of Jesus.
I thought it turned out okay! ..so I thought I'd post it here as an idea on how images can communicate.. and be passed along on social media.. etc.
But you have to scroll down to the 2nd image.. and click on it to enlarge
http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html
:Peace2: later!
Hey Marie, I loved it! :thumbsup:
calvinists and many arminianists believe people will burn forever in hell :eek: :flamebreath:...on top of all the suffering the world gone thru we're s'posed to believe this ? :dontknow:..no, it cannot be :Peace2:...why dont they read jeremiah where God says He hates molech ?..the god of burning fire ? :flamebreath:..so, God hates molech cos he burns folks but will burn folks Himself ?...bahhh !..thats nonsense.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 08, 2016, 12:01:00 AM
Quote from: marie glen on January 28, 2016, 04:19:58 PM
More and more I've been thinking of putting U.R. (and other Biblical things) in images. One of my latest is an image outlining the ancient Hebrew holy days, and how (in my opinion) they prophecy the two advents of Jesus.
I thought it turned out okay! ..so I thought I'd post it here as an idea on how images can communicate.. and be passed along on social media.. etc.
But you have to scroll down to the 2nd image.. and click on it to enlarge
http://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html
:Peace2: later!
Hey Marie, I loved it! :thumbsup:
:ty: :gsmile:
Quote from: darryl on March 08, 2016, 02:06:24 AM
calvinists and many arminianists believe people will burn forever in hell :eek: :flamebreath:...on top of all the suffering the world gone thru we're s'posed to believe this ? :dontknow:..no, it cannot be :Peace2:...why dont they read jeremiah where God says He hates molech ?..the god of burning fire ? :flamebreath:..so, God hates molech cos he burns folks but will burn folks Himself ?...bahhh !..thats nonsense.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana: You said it!!! :smile: