Gary would like clear, focused, inspired responses to this argument

[jabcat]

IN 4 PARTS

"From a Hell's Evangelist and Judge"

Over the years I've gotten a lot of threats and warnings from Christians who have come across Tentmaker Ministries material. The bold print comment below came in one email. I responded and we emailed back and forth for much of the day. At the end of the day, she sent me the rest of the material below. I decided to copy the material and post it here at the Tentmaker Discussion Forum so those on the board can read and respond to the points in the article attempting to Hell and that most of mankind is going there including many Christians. I am going to point her to this thread so she can read the responses. Please be thoughtful and clear in your responses. Thank you, Gary Amirault

Comment received: YOU ARE A LIAR. THERE IS AN ETERNAL HELL--CALLED THE LAKE OF FIRE--AND YOU WILL BE GOING THERE UNLESS YOU STOP PREACHING UNIVERSAL SALVATION FOR EVERYONE. NOTHING IMPURE WILL BE IN HEAVEN. UNSAVED WHO DIE WILL BE SENT TO HELL AT JUDGEMENT. GOD GAVE US FREE WILL.  HE WILL NOT OVERRIDE A PERSON'S DECISION TO NOT ACCEPT HIM.  HE CANNOT CHANGE A PERSON WHO HAS NOT RECEIVED SALVATION...AND THEN ALSO GOES ON TO ENDURE TO THE END AS A BELIEVER, DYING TO SELF AND SERVING CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR.  YOUR ARTICLE ON UNIVERSALISM IS FILLED WITH LIES. IT IS EVIL...FROM THE MOUTH OF SATAN HIMSELF. RETRACT IT NOW OR FIND YOURSELF IN HELL WHEN YOU MEET GOD AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT.

Bottom line – if God the Father did not want us to have knowledge about hell, then He would have never put these kinds of verses in the Bible.

The reason God is putting all of these verses on hell in the Bible is so He can warn us as to exactly what will happen to all of us if we do not accept the redemptive pardon He is offering to us through His Son Jesus Christ.
He is putting all of these verses in the Bible all for of our own good so we will know exactly what will be awaiting all of us once we die and cross over – heaven for the saved and hell for the unsaved.

With God putting these kinds of extreme verses in the Bible for all of our own good, it would treasonous and blasphemous to try and take them completely out just because they make us feel very uncomfortable, or they do not fit into how we think the big picture should all be set up with God the Father.

Three TRUTHS on this very disturbing and heart-breaking doctrine show that we have no other alternative but to accept the truth of hell because our Bible tells us so:

1. Why God has created such a horrible place of eternal torment.
2. Many of the main verses from the Bible on the existence and reality of a place called hell.
3. And the powerful testimony of Bill Wiese, who was literally taken down into hell for 23 minutes and was allowed to experience part of the horrors and torments that actually go on down there.

I believe the language being used in the Bible to describe hell is all literal language, not metaphoric or symbolic type of language like many in the liberal end of Christianity now believe. As such, it is extremely important and vital that every single Christian get a real grip on this horrible reality and do everything they possibly can to try and get as many as their unsaved loved ones saved before they die and cross over.

All of your unsaved loved ones only have one chance and one window in the big-picture, eternal scheme of things to get it right and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. They will not get a second chance once they die and cross over. Once you die, that is going to be it! Your fate will be forever sealed in either one of two places – heaven for the saved and hell for the unsaved. There are no middle-of-the-road areas that you can go into if you do not want to accept Jesus.

Plain and simple – God is not messing around with this extreme reality – and He has done everything He possibly can through His Word and through His laborers to try and get it through our thick skulls that there is going to be a final fate and final judgment for every single person that He has ever created. We are not going to live forever, and sooner or later every single one of us is going to die and cross over and meet the Lord head on for these final judgments.

As such, we need to meditate on this extreme reality from time to time, as hard as it is to swallow, much less think about – and use it as a means to light a fire and spark in us so we can make every effort to try and get all of our unsaved loved ones saved before it becomes too late to do so for them.

Why Would God Create a Hell?
If our God is all-loving, all-perfect, and all-merciful, then how could He possibly create a place such as hell, much less ever throw all of the unsaved people down in there for the rest of their eternal lives?

Before I get into this specific question, the first thing you need to know is that hell is not going to be the final abode for all of the unsaved. Right now, everyone who dies and who is not saved is thrown into a place called hell. But that is only for a specified period of time.

The Bible tells us that the next big event that will be occurring is that Jesus will literally be coming down from heaven to rule our earth from the city of Jerusalem for a 1000 years. This is called the Millennium Kingdom. After those 1000 years are up, every single person who is in hell will then be pulled up and have to face the Lord for what is called the Great White Throne Judgment. There will be a Book of Works that has recorded all of their works in this lifetime.

The Bible says that all of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will then be cast into what is called the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. The Lake of Fire and Brimstone will then be their final resting place, not hell.
After the Great White Throne Judgment has ended, then hell itself will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone and from there, the Bible says that the smoke of their torment will ascend forever and ever out of this horrible place. All of this is explained to you in our articles at the end our End Times section if you want to see all of the verses on these two big coming events.

Now the 50 million dollar question is why – why would our all-loving and all-perfect God create such a horrible place and horrible ending for all of the people who will reject His message of eternal salvation through His Son Jesus? Why can't God at least give them some kind of middle-of-the-road place to live in where they will not have to go such through horrible torments for all of eternity? Why does hell and the actual living conditions down there have to be so bad and so extreme?

When you see what is in the verses I will list below, and then hear the testimony of Bill Wiese (view his "23 Minutes in Hell" videos free at YouTube), you will come away with the feeling that you would not even want your worse enemy to be going down there, much less any of your close loved ones.  (I met and talked in depth with Bill Wiese at a church service some years ago.  He is genuine.  His revelation on going to hell is REAL.)

Years ago, one of the first things I did with the Lord, once I found out that you could press in and try to receive direct revelation and knowledge from Him, was to ask Him why He had to create a hell in the first place, and then why does He have to have so much extreme suffering and torment going on down there? And then to top it off, have these people be condemned down there for all of eternity with no chance of ever being able to make it back out again?

To think that a certain percentage of the human race is going to have to spend all of eternity down in hell does not seem to compute with our natural logic and reasoning. It just all seems too extreme. That is why some in the liberal end of Christianity are trying to take this doctrine completely out, because their minds and their hearts cannot understand how or why God would allow such a horrible place of torment to exist for all of eternity.

What I will now give you below is just my own personal opinion on this and what I believe God has conveyed to me on this extreme subject matter. You will each have to get your own witness on this. The Bible says that we will only know in part while we are down here, so many of these types of questions will not be fully understood until we get to heaven and we meet Jesus face-to-face to be able to discuss these kinds of matters with Him.

Long story short, I feel like God gave me a very logical and almost mathematical reason as to why hell exists in the first place, and then why all of the people who will get thrown down there will have to spend all of eternity down there – like one plus one will always equal two in God's universe.

1.  In the Bible Basics section of our site, we have an article titled, "The Doctrine of the Trinity." In this article, I give you all of the main verses showing you that we are dealing with only one God, but one God in three divine Persons. Both God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are all God and Lord Themselves.

As part of this doctrine, the Bible shows us that all three Persons of the Godhead are co-eternal, which this means They have never been created. They have always been and always will be. Only God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are co-eternal in the entire scheme of things.

Now here is where the problem starts to come in. As we already know, the first class of beings that God decides to create are the angels – the angelic race. Since only God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are God and Lord Themselves and are totally perfect in Their divine natures and personalities, this means that no matter what kind of race God decides to create, they will all be created imperfect.

In other words, no created being is ever going to become the 4th person of the Divine Trinity, no matter how hard they may want to try. No created being will ever be born God or become God during his eternal existence.

This now leaves God with a major dilemma. Since this first race, the angelic race, is now going to be created imperfect, this means they are going to be capable of malfunctioning to the dark side and sinning since they will not be perfect in their makeup and personality like God is.

As a result, God now has to make a big decision one way or the other. Does He put something in their initial makeup where He can override their free will so He can make it virtually impossible for them to malfunction to the dark side and sin, or does He let them have a full, free will, and then give them the ability and the freedom to choose between the good side of this life or the dark side of this life?

As we all know, God chose the latter option, and He gave the entire angelic race the freedom and free will to be able to make their own choices in this life. They can now decide to either stay loyal and serve God and stay on the good and righteous side of the fence in their walk with Him, or they can rebel and go against Him and move to the dark side of the fence. Again, as we all know, Satan and one third of the angels chose with their own free wills to rebel against God and move to the dark side. As a result, they were all cast out of heaven and they will never, ever get another chance to get back in – ever again!!

As a result of these angels being cast out of heaven, God now creates another place for them to go to and that is hell. Hell was initially created for these fallen angels, not the human race, since the human race had not been created yet.
Since God chose to give the angels total free will and the ability and freedom to choose who they wanted to serve and stay loyal too, this tells us right off the bat that God does not want mindless, passive robots serving and worshiping Him. He only wants His people coming to Him because they want to with their own free wills and their own hearts, not because they have been created passive and mindless.

2.  Now God decides to create another class of beings, the human race. And once again, God creates us imperfect, with the ability to choose between Him and the dark side, just like He did with the entire angelic race. God first starts us off in the Garden of Eden, but as we all know, Adam and Eve could not obey one, simple, little command from the Lord and they too got evicted from their initial paradise just like the fallen angels managed to do with their initial paradise, which was heaven.

But then God decides to do something different with us than He did with the angels. He decides He is going to give us a second chance, and He then sends His Son Jesus down to our earth to die on the cross for all of our sins so that we can then be made righteous enough through His blood to be able to enter into heaven after we die and cross over.
But once again, we now have the same dilemma. God has now granted us a redemptive pardon through His Son Jesus and His sacrificial death on the cross – but He now wants all of us to come to Him and His Son Jesus out of our own free wills, not by any type of force or coercion on His part.

This now leaves every man and every woman who has ever been created by the Lord in the New Testament with a big choice. Do we decide to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior through His sacrificial death on the cross, or do we decide that we do not need Him and that we can do things our way and go our own separate ways from Him?

Again, since God is not going to force Himself or His redemptive pardon on any of us, He will give all of us total free will to make this choice for ourselves. The ones who decide to accept what Jesus has done for them and accept Him as their Lord and Savior, they will be allowed entrance into heaven after they die and cross over. However, the people who refuse to accept what Jesus has done for them on the cross will not be allowed to enter into heaven and thus there is only one other place in the entire scheme of things for them to go to – and that is to hell with the rest of the fallen angels.

3.  So now we get to the real heart of this entire matter. If you do not accept Jesus, you obviously will not be able to enter into heaven. But now the question becomes, if people do not want to accept Jesus, then why are they going to be cast into the most horrible place imaginable, with no chance of ever being able to make it back out again? Why can't God the Father just arrange for them to live in some kind of a middle or neutral ground area where they can at least have some decent living conditions to live in as compared to the horrible living conditions that are in hell?

I believe the answer lies in who God the Father really is. I believe that God created both the angelic race and the human race solely for Himself, not for anyone else, including ourselves. Just like the branch will completely die if it is cut off and separated from the tree trunk, in the same we will all "die" if we are cut off and separated from God as a result of our own free will decision to pull away from Him.

God the Father is a God of maximum intensity.
Either we come to Him through the blood that Jesus has already shed for us on the cross and accept both Him and His Son as our Lord and Savior and live, or we choose to go our own way and refuse to accept the redemptive pardon He is offering us and die.

Since God the Father is a God of maximum intensity, this means that our choice on this issue will have a maximum intense consequence. We will either receive maximum life if we accept Jesus or maximum death if we do not.
And maximum death will mean that we will end up in a place that will have maximum death all over it, hence the horrible living conditions that are actually in hell, and then eventually the horrible living conditions that will be in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.
Here is the verse that perfectly captures this revelation and perfectly spells it out for all of us in no uncertain terms:

"... I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live, that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days ..." (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Notice the two sets of words, life and death and blessing and cursing. Notice that there are no middle grounds or neutral areas on this statement being made by the Lord. This is an all-or-nothing statement being made by the Lord to every single, living person on this planet. God is only giving us two choices to make in this life – either maximum life through Him and His Son, or maximum death without Them. He is not giving us any type of third choice if we do not want to accept Him and His Son.
T
his is why the stakes are so high in this life and that we make every attempt possible to get all of our loved ones saved before it is too late, as they have no idea what is awaiting them on the other side if they do not accept Jesus and His free gift of salvation on this side of heaven.

God the Father, due to His maximum intense nature and personality, is not messing around with any of us. He has made all of us for Himself and He will not be denied. Though He will never force or make us choose Him and His Son Jesus, He also will not cut us any slack if we make the final choice not to accept Him and His Son Jesus.

If you choose not to accept Him, then you will end up with maximum death in the most horrible place imaginable – no if, ands, or buts about it.
When it is all said and done, there will only be maximum life in heaven or maximum death in hell, and then eventually maximum death in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone after the Millennium Kingdom has passed. Maximum life or maximum death – with absolutely no in-between areas for people to go into.

[jabcat]

continued, Part 2....

So if you want to know why the living conditions are so bad in hell and then eventually in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, it is because there are no middle grounds or neutral areas with God the Father due to His maximum intense nature and personality.

It is either maximum life with Him or maximum death without Him – plain and simple. And maximum death will mean that the place you end up in, hell, will have maximum death living conditions all throughout it.

So when you read the Scripture verses I will list below, God is not pulling any punches with the specific wording that He is using in these verses. They all mean exactly what they are saying. This is not metaphorical language, this is all literal language – all straight-to-the-point and all right-in-your-face language so you can never say that you were never warned by the Lord in this lifetime.
The Bible Verses For Hell

So you can see the intense power that is on these specific verses, I am going to run all of them together. If you will read them one after another, you will really feel the power that is on these verses and that God is not mincing any words.
You can tell by the way God is expressing Himself that He is meaning exactly what He is saying and that He is not trying to hide anything behind any type of metaphorical language. With the stakes being so high, and our eternal destinies being on the line, God is not going to be hiding behind any type of metaphorical or symbolic type language like some of the liberals will try and have you believe.

Here are a total of 47 verses that prove, without any shadow of a doubt, that a place called hell really does exist, and that all of those who do not accept Jesus and His message of eternal salvation will be going down there the minute they die and cross over.

1. "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment ..." (2 Peter 2:4)
2. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)
3. "But I will show you who you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:5)
4. "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)
5. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:31)
6. "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to here, let him hear!" (Matthew 13:41-43)
7. "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:49-50)
8. "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels ..." (Matthew 25:41)
9. "And if your hand or foot causes you to to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. And if you eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire." (Matthew 18:9)
10. "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched – where 'their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' (Mark 9:43-44)
11. "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it." (Matthew 7:13)
12. "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3)
13. "His winnowing fan is His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire." (Luke 3:17)
14. "And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:24)
15. "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)
16. "These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power ..." (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
17. "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (Hell) shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)
18. "But he does not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of hell." (Proverbs 9:18)
19. "Let death seize them; let them go down alive into hell, for wickedness is in their dwellings and among them." (Psalm 55:15)
20. "Her house is the way to hell, descending to the chambers of death."(Proverbs 7:27)
21. "For a fire is kindled in My anger, and it shall burn to the lowest hell; it shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." (Deuteronomy 32:22)
22. "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:17)
23. "The way of the Lord is strength for the upright, but destruction will come to the workers of iniquity." (Proverbs 10:29)
24. "They do not lie with the mighty who are fallen of the uncircumcised, who go down to hell with their weapons of war; they have laid their swords under their heads but their iniquities will be on their bones, because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living." (Ezekiel 32:27)
25. "Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself and opened its mouth beyond measure; their glory and their multitude and their pomp, and he who is jubilant, shall descend into it. People shall be brought down, each man humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled." (Isaiah 5:14-15)
26. "... then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 'I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again,' says the Lord God. (Ezekiel 26:20-21)
27. "But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive in to the pit, then you will understand that these men rejected the Lord. Then it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up ... So they and all those with them went down alive in the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the congregation." (Numbers 16:30-33)
28. "Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest  depths of the Pit." (Isaiah 14:15)
29. "For Sheol cannot thank You, death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth." (Isaiah 38:18)
30. "Her graves are set in the recesses of the Pit, and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who caused terror in the land of the living." (Ezekiel 32:23)
31. "... Deliver him from going down to the Pit ... He will redeem his soul from going dow to the Pit, and his life shall see the light." (Job 33:24,28)
32. "Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, and whole, like those who go down to the Pit..." (Proverbs 1:12)
33. "Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. And to him was given the key to the bottomless pit." (Revelation 9:1)
34. "But those who seek my life, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth." (Psalm 63:9)
35. "As for the head of those who surround me, let the evil of their lips cover them; let burning coals fall upon them; let them be cast into the fire, into deep pits, that they not rise up again." (Psalm 140:9-10)
36. "But the Lord tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals, fire and brimstone and a burning wind; this shall be the portion of their cup." (Psalm 11:5-6)
37. "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Luke 3:9)
38. "And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30)
39. "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Matthew 22:13)
40. "Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11)
41. "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades (Hell), he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to them, 'If they did not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" (Luke 16:19-31)
42. "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
43. "... as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." (Jude 7)
44. "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling." (PSalm 49:14)
45. "Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction. Oh, how they are brought to desolation, as in a moment! They are utterly consumed with terrors." (Psalm 73:18-19)
46. "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)
47. "For when he dies he shall carry nothing away; his glory shall not descend after him. Though while he lives he blesses himself (for men will praise you when you do well for yourself)." (Psalm 49:17)
When you read all of these verses together, one right after the other, there is no doubt and no question that hell exists and that all of those who reject Jesus and His message of eternal salvation are going to go straight down there once they die and cross over. God could not make things any more clear.

The wording, the language, and the serious tone that God is using in all of the above passages are all very straight forward and very easy to understand. This is all straight, literal, and in-your-face language, not any type of metaphorical language. As such, we all need to take these verses very, very seriously and do our best to get as many as our loved ones saved before it becomes to late for them.

To really drive this point home, I am going to bold and highlight some of the key words and phrases that are in the above verses so you can really see the seriousness and the gravity of the situation that we are all dealing with.

[jabcat]

continued Part 3.....

Hell
The Pit
Lake of Fire and Brimstone
Furnace of fire
Hell Fire
Everlasting Fire
Eternal Fire
Unquenchable Fire
Everlasting Destruction
Perish
Condemnation of Hell
Chambers of Death
Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth
Outer Darkness
Deep Pits
Tormented with Fire and Brimstone
No Rest Day or Night
Utterly Consumed with Terrors
Smoke of Their Torment Ascends Forever and Ever
Brought to Desolation in a Moment
Their Beauty Shall Be Consumed in the Grave
There is No Work or Device or Knowledge or Wisdom in the Grave

How any liberal could interpret these verses, and key phrases in these verses as being metaphorical type language rather than direct, straight-to-the-point, literal language is beyond me. All of these words and key phrases are not only implying maximum intensity, but they are also implying a maximum kind of death in this horrible place of torment – and it will also be forever and ever, for all of eternity with no chance of ever being able to get back out again.

The very last verse I have listed above also really drives home a major point. So many people live for what they can accomplish or buy on this end, along with whatever glory they can build up for themselves through their own accomplishments and achievements. But this last verse says that a man shall "carry nothing away" with him when he dies and leaves this world, and that "all of his glory shall not descend after him."

In other words, no suitcases will need to be packed on your deathbed, as absolutely nothing will be going with you to the other side. All of the money you have made, all of the material possessions you have bought with that money, and all of the glory and fame you may have built up for yourself with others will all die and perish right alongside your physical body on your deathbed.

The only thing that will matter is whether or not you found Jesus Christ and made Him the Lord and Savior of your life. If you have, you will then enter straight into heaven when you die and cross over. If you have not, you will then be dropped straight down into a place beyond your worse nightmares. When it is all said and done, it will either be maximum death or maximum life for each individual person that the Lord has ever created.

The Testimony of Bill Wiese

The last thing I want to leave you with on this gut-wrenching and heart-breaking doctrine is the testimony of a man by the name of Bill Wiese. Many of you have already heard about him. He said the Lord pulled him out of his body and literally dropped him into hell for 23 minutes. During that 23 minutes, he was allowed to actually experience some of the horrors and awful living conditions that are going on down there.

For the record, we believe this man's entire testimony is the real thing and we cannot recommend this man and his powerful testimony highly enough. He has already written two books on his ordeal and You Tube also has a very good video series on him sharing his testimony at a church.

Here are the two books that he has written to date on his experiences:
1. "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Wiese
2. "Hell" by Bill Wiese

The first book tells of his initial ordeal. The second book goes into much more detail on what he experienced and answers many tough questions that people have on this topic, along with giving you all of the Scripture verses that pertain to hell. Again, we cannot recommend these two specific books highly enough if you would like to learn more about this topic.
If you would like to hear his testimony straight from his mouth, go to YouTube and type in the words "Bill Wiese" in the search box. A page will then pop up listing the different videos he currently has in there.

Here is a brief synopsis as to what happened to him when he got dropped down into hell for those 23 minutes. You will each have to get your own discernment from the Holy Spirit as to whether or not you feel he is telling the truth, as this was all personal and private revelation that was given to him by the Lord. But again, for the record, we personally believe this man's entire testimony and he has our absolute highest recommendation.

1.  On 11/23/ 98 at 3:00 AM in the morning, God pulls Bill out of his body and literally drops him into a prison cell in hell without any type of advance notice or warning that this was going to happen. When he is dropped into this prison cell, he also has no memory that he is a Christian, as God was wanting him to feel first hand what it would feel like to be totally lost and hopeless for all of eternity in this horrible place of torment.

He said the walls were made of rough stone and the cell had actual bars on it like what we have in our own jails. The first thing he notices is that he has an actual body. This body was his spirit body, not his natural body, as his natural body was still back home in his bed. This was an actual out-of-body experience he was having. He was also completely naked in his spirit body. He says that this was another form of shame and humiliation they could impose on him down there, like Hitler did with the Jewish people in the concentration camps.

The second thing he notices is that he is extremely weak, like he can barely move. The next thing he immediately feels is the heat, an unbearable and tremendous type heat. He did not know what the temperature of this heat was, but it would have been enough to kill his natural body back here on earth. It was that intense and that unbearable.
He also said the actual smell in hell was the most toxic, foul, putrid smell that he has ever smelled and that we have nothing on this earth that would even begin to compare to it.

He says in his book that if you could take every rotten thing you have ever smelled, from open sewers to rotten meat, spoiled eggs, sour milk, dead rotting animals and sulfur, and then magnify that stench a thousand times, he said that might get you close as to what hell actually smells like. It was that bad!

Another thing he noticed is that there was hardly enough air for him to be able to breathe.
The only way he could breathe was by taking in very short, quick type breaths. There was no humidity or moisture in the air like what we have here on our earth. The air was also filled with smoke and felt like it had no oxygen in it.
After literally feeling all of this upon his arrival in this cell, he then sees two enormous creatures who are in the cell with him. These are two big demonic spirits in their natural, horrible, ugly and grotesque form. They were both about 10-13 feet in height. They were gazing at him with absolute pure evil and hatred in their eyes. The one was pacing back and forth violently in his cell like a caged bull, like it could not wait to get at him.

Once he saw these two big creatures, he said the fear that immediately engulfs you is beyond any type of fear we can feel on this earth. He said the evil and terror that was coming from these creatures was so severe, that he was literally paralyzed with this fear. He said these two creatures were human in form, as they had arms and legs, but they were reptilian in nature.

He said the first one had a huge protruding jaw, big teeth and large sunken-in eyes and claws that were about a foot long. The second one was a bit taller and thinner, with very long arms and razor-sharp fins that covered its body.

He said both of these demons were cursing and blaspheming God and that they hated him because he was made in the image of God. He said he had no strength to try and fight off these creatures as they started to move towards him. He said the demons rule over the humans who are in hell and torment and torture them all day long.
He also said that he knew instinctively that these demons were about a thousand times stronger than he was and that he was no match against their great strength.

Then the one beast proceeds to throw him up against the cell wall, and when he did, it felt like every bone in his body was broken. The second beast then comes up, gets behind him and gets him in a vice-like bear hug. It then proceeded to dig its claws into his chest, literally ripping his chest wide open.
He said the skin of his chest hung down like ribbons as he slumped back down to the cell floor. He said these two demons had no mercy whatsoever on him and they took great delight and pleasure at being able to torture him like this.

2.  After falling to the floor, the next thing that occurs is that he sees that the cell doors are open. He then manages to be able to crawl out the door and the demons did not try and stop him. Once he gets outside of the cell, he hears millions of people literally screaming at the top of their lungs. He says these people scream non-stop and that their screams are deafening and you cannot stop it or get away from it – ever!

He also said that he was in pitch darkness at this time, but it was not like a darkness we have on earth. He said you could actually feel it and the evil that was in it. He said you could not see so much as one inch in front of your face. But then after this, he looks off to the right and could sees flames far off in the distance, about 10 miles away from where he was at.

Again, he instinctively knew this. He said he knew the flames were coming from a far off, large pit where people were actually in. The pit was about a mile wide and the flames were like a raging inferno.

He said the flames were intense, but that the darkness seemed to be able to swallow up this light. The only thing that was visible was what the flames were lighting up. Everything else was still in pitch darkness. There was also no greenery, shrubbery, pretty landscapes, etc. Everything was all rocks, barren, and desolate.

He also said that one of the worse sensations he experienced down there was the constant thirst and dryness. There was no water down there for him to drink and he was constantly thirsty. He also knew that he would never be able to see any of his family or friends again and that he would never be able to get out of this place.
He knew he was doomed and damned for all of eternity. There are no jail breaks in this place and there is no way out once you are dropped into it. Once you enter in, you will never be able to get back out – ever again! All hope is now forever gone.

There is also no purpose down there. Nothing to do, nothing to look forward too, and nothing to accomplish. One of the above verses says that there is no work, device, knowledge, or wisdom that is down there for you to feed off of. You will be beyond bored-to-death.

Just think of that kind of a scenario in our hustle and bustle type world, with many of us always trying to accomplish or achieve something. No more goals, visions, or mountains to climb.

No more exciting adventures to take. No more exciting places to go, see, and experience like what we have here on this earth. And no more people to talk to, to love, and to share our lives with.


Your life in hell will just be one of maximum death and wasting away – with no end ever to these horrible torments.
After seeing these flames from far off, one of the demons then grabbed him again, threw him back in the cell and then proceeded to crush his head. Again, God prevented him from feeling the full pain and impact of his head literally being crushed in by this giant demon.
Then 4 demons grabbed him by both arms and legs and were ready to pull him apart limb from limb, when all of sudden he was pulled out of the cell by the Lord and placed in front of the pit where the fire was coming out of.

3.  Bill says that he then found himself next to a big open pit with large raging flames coming out of it. He said again, the heat was unbearable and that he could see the outlines of people who were caught in the pit and in these flames. They were all screaming in horrible torment, agony, and pain. Some of them were trying to claw and climb their way out, but did not have enough strength to be able to do so. And if by chance they were able to get close enough to the top of the pit, there were demons all around the pit who would push them back down into the open burning flames.

He also noticed that he was always in a state of constant exhaustion and that he would never be able to sleep down there to restore his energy levels like we can do up here on this earth. There was no rest whatsoever from all of the screams, torments, the demons, the lack of air to breathe, the thirst, the dryness, the barrenness and isolation, and the horrible smells and stench that permeate the entire air down there. No peace of mind – ever again!

He also knew that there were different levels of torment that was down there, different degrees of punishment. But they were all bad, no matter where you were at in hell or what you were actually going through with all of these different demons ruling over you and torturing you.

[jabcat]

continued, Part 4....

4.  The next thing that occurs is that he notices that he is standing in the middle of a cave. As he looks at the walls of this cave, he sees thousands of hideous creatures, which were all demonic spirits. He said that they were all different sizes and shapes. Some had 4 legs and were the size of bears, others stood upright and were the size of gorillas. All of them were grotesque and disfigured, with many of their limbs being twisted and out of proportion. These demons were apparently chained to the cavern walls and as he looked into their faces, all he saw was pure evil and pure hatred. He also saw giant spiders, snakes, maggots, worms, and rats all over the place.

At this point, he then starts to ascend through a tunnel. As he starts to ascend away from this big pit, he could see thousands of other smaller pits of fire off to the right of it. Each smaller pit was no more than 3-5 feet wide and 4-5 feet deep and each of these smaller pits were holding a single soul who was burning alive in these pits.

As he continues to ascend higher through this tunnel, all of a sudden he sees a burst of light come into the tunnel, a pure white light that he had never seen before. In the middle of the light he could see the outline of a Man, and he then immediately knew it was Jesus. The first thing that Jesus then says to Him was, "I AM."

As soon as he saw Jesus, his memory was fully restored back to him so that he knew that he was a born-again Christian and that this place of torment was not meant for him. At once, he felt immediate peace and love come into him from Jesus and all of the fear and terror that he had been experiencing immediately evaporated, as the Bible tells us that perfect love from Jesus will cast out all fears.

Jesus then proceeds to tell him the reason He allowed him to have this experience was so that he could tell everyone about it. Jesus told him that many of His own people no longer believe in hell. Jesus grieves and sorrows at every soul that becomes lost in this place and His desire is that no man or woman ever be sent down there.
Jesus tells him "To go and tell them about this place. It is not My desire that any should go here." Hell was meant for the fallen angels, not for the human race.

Jesus also told Bill that the reason the demons hated him so much was due to the fact that he was made in the image of God. And if the demons hate God, then they are going to hate all of the human beings that God has ever created.
Bill also tells Jesus that the demons were so powerful, that he had no strength against them. And then Jesus says to him – "All you have to do is cast them out in My name." When Jesus says this to him, he gets the impression that the demons are nothing but ants on the wall compared to who Jesus is and how powerful He really is.

At this point, Bill is allowed to feel part of the sorrow and sadness that Jesus feels as He watches a part of His creation end up descending down into hell. He said His love for all of humanity is beyond anything you can try and describe with words, way beyond our natural abilities to love. He also said he could not stand it for a fraction of a second the pain and agony that Jesus was feeling and experiencing as He was watching some of His people descend down into this horrible place of torment forever and ever.

The last thing that Jesus tells him is: "Tell them I am coming very, very soon."

From there, Jesus takes Bill straight up above the earth where he was able to see it from a distance like astronauts can, as this was always a desire of his heart. He says that our earth literally hangs on "nothing," and from this point of view in outer space, you can see the intelligent design that is behind everything and that none of this kind of perfect order could ever be by chance, and that only a God could create and then hold such a perfect order in our universe.

He was also allowed to feel a very small portion of God's power and how He has absolute total power and control over every little thing in our world and in the entire universe, including every single thought we have and everything that goes on our in our daily lives, and that nothing escapes His attention.

From there, he was brought back down to the earth and then back into his body in his house. Once he left the presence of Jesus, the horrors and terrors from hell came flooding back up into his mind and senses. His wife started to pray over him to help calm him down and break the fear off of him.

God then took away the fear and terror of being in hell, but kept his memory fully intact on everything he saw and experienced down there so he could tell the rest of the world about it. He said it took him a good year to get completely over it due to the intensity of the whole experience.

Bill also said he was given insight that hell is located close to the center of the earth, approximately 3700 miles straight down. And that if people only knew what was straight down below our earth and where they are going to end up at if they do not find and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Conclusion To The Reality of Hell

All of the above on Bill Wiese is just a short summary. If you would like to read more about his ordeal, we would highly recommend both of his books, as he goes into very good detail on exactly what happened to him down there, along with providing Scripture verses to back up every single thing that happened to him.

Again, you will each have to get your own discernment on his ordeal. But after reading both of his books and watching his entire testimony on some of the Youtube videos, there is no doubt in my mind that his experience was real, that it was from the Lord, and that God wants to use him as an anointed vessel to get the message out that hell is real, that it really does exist, and that all of unsaved are going down there when they die and cross over unless they find Jesus, accept His message on eternal salvation, and then accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

I believe what God wanted to do with this experience with Bill Wiese was for him to bring back to us what the actual living conditions are like down in hell, along with showing us that a hell really does exist.

Per all of the Scripture verses we gave you above, the Bible is telling us, when every thing is all finally said and done, that we will all end up with either maximum life in heaven or maximum death in hell, with there being absolutely nothing in between these two final endings.

If you will notice when he starts to describe what the actual living conditions are like down in hell, they are all maximum death type of living conditions.
Maximum fear
Maximum hopelessness – knowing you will never get out
Maximum heat and high temperatures
Maximum rotten and putrid smells that would kill us up here
Maximum pitch darkness
Maximum thirst with no water available
Maximum weakness, with no physical strength left in your bodies
Maximum loud screaming from people being burned alive in pits
Maximum kinds of torture from the demons who rule over you
Barely enough air to be able to breathe
No purpose, work, knowledge, or wisdom – just wasting away
Never be able to sleep or rest again
No contact or conversations with any friends or loved ones

As I have said at the top of this article, the doctrine of hell and eternal damnation and punishment is without question, the most disturbing, gut-wrenching, and heart-breaking doctrine in all of the Christian faith. Very few people can even begin to meditate or think about it for very long before the circuits in their brains start to blow.

But this is the extreme reality that we are all dealing with and facing – and without question, our number one priority in this life should be to allow God to use each and everyone of us from time to time to get as many as our close loved ones saved as we possibly can, along with any other strangers God will want us to witness to. This would include all of your immediate family members, friends, and co-workers – all of the people within your immediate circle of influence.

I know many of you have already tried to witness to some of those who are close to you, like your spouses, children, and some of your friends. But many of them have been resistant to it and you seem like you are getting nowhere with any of them.

But just remember, you not only have the Holy Spirit on the inside of you, but you also have His power, His knowledge, and His wisdom. Just one power move by the Holy Spirit through a Word of Knowledge or a Word of Wisdom could completely turn the tide for you and bring your loved one in.

My best suggestion to you is that you put each one of your close loved ones and anyone else you want at the top of your personal prayer list with the Lord and pray for their eternal salvation literally to the day they die, as some people will get saved on their death beds with the Lord.

And then once you start praying for them, keep your radars up and be very open and sensitive to any specific leadings that you may receive from the Holy Spirit as to how He will want to work with each one of them.
The Holy Spirit is the Master Strategist when it comes to trying to get people saved, and sometimes you will need some specific strategies from Him to be able to get your loved one saved, as they will each have their own stubborn, resistant points that you will have to deal with and overcome.

But stay with it no matter how long it takes, as our life here is very short and we only have one window, one shot, one opportunity in the big-picture, eternal scheme of things to get these people saved and pulled in before their day in the sun is finally over.

Please also feel free to share this article with any of your unsaved loved ones if you feel what has been written in this article will help them see what the truth really is on this life before it becomes too late for them. The Scripture verses alone, when read one right after the other, will really drive home what God is trying to show all of us on this extreme reality that is facing every single one of us.

I will now leave you with one last thought on this gut-wrenching topic. Though all of the above is very graphic, gruesome, and a total assault on the senses, just realize and appreciate what God the Father has done for all of us to save us from this horrible place of eternal torment and punishment.

He not only sent His Son Jesus down to our earth to save us, but He literally sacrificed His Son on a cross to pay the full penalty for our sins and to pay the full price to get us back to Himself. Jesus Himself went through the most horrible, bloody, gruesome, and barbaric death known to mankind at the time that He came down to save us.

When Adam and Eve blew it for all of us in the Garden of Eden, God the Father could have easily washed His hands with all of us and allowed us to just drop into this horrible place of torment for all of eternity. But He chose not to do so. He chose instead to show us how much He really does love and care for all of us by being willing to send down and

SACRIFICE HIS ONE AND ONLY SON ON A CROSS.

Without question, God the Father Himself paid the ultimate price to get us back to Himself – and that was to allow His one and only begotten Son to be butchered and literally killed on a cross.

So when you think about and meditate on this horrible reality of a real, live, living hell – just realize, appreciate, and be very thankful and grateful that God the Father has made a way of escape for all of us from this horrible place of torment.
We do not have to go there. He does not send us down there on His own choosing. The choice lies with us. God the Father has made it as easy as He possibly could to keep all of us out of this horrible place – and that is to just accept the free redemptive pardon that He is granting to all of us through His Son's death on the cross.

Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior through His sacrificial death on the cross and you will live, and then enter into the most glorious and wonderful place you can possibly imagine when you die and cross over – heaven itself – where God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, all of God's good angels, and all of your saved loved ones will live with you for all of eternity in this perfect paradise – with no more pain, sorrow, tears, and heartache ever again for anyone.

Choose to reject this free gift of eternal salvation that God the Father is offering you, and you will leave Him with no other alternative but to allow you to enter into the most horrible place imaginable, a place of eternal torment and punishment that will be beyond your worse nightmares, and that will go on forever and ever with no chance of ever being able to make it back out again.

Again, to all of you who have any unsaved loved ones, meditate on this extreme reality from time to time, and then allow God, through the power of His Holy Spirit, to light a fire and spark in you that will never die down so you can make every attempt possible to get all of your loved ones saved before it becomes too late to do so for them.

You have the anointing and the power of the Holy Spirit on the inside of you to be able to effectively witness to each one of them. Be guided by the Holy Spirit and He will then make major power moves on each of them if you will only be willing to fly and flow with His leadings on how to do this. Jesus has already come to set these captives free, and He can use each and everyone of you for these types of major rescue-deliverance missions if you will only allow Him to do this with you.

Again – nothing is more important in this life than leading all of your unsaved loved ones into the love and mercy of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And He can use each and everyone of you to fully accomplish these kinds of divine tasks if you will only allow Him to use you as an anointed vessel.

The power from the Holy Spirit is already there, waiting for each one of you. God just needs eagles that will be willing to take flight and fly on His divine power so He can then send them out on these major deliverance missions.

[WhiteWings]

There is no use responding to such people.
They simply are 100% convinced Jesus is a failure and Father's will is overruled by His creation.
I could give links to several sites/articles that in-depth explain what the Lake of Fire is. How long it takes. Etc

But why bother?
There is plenty of UR material on the main TM site and YouTube.
That person is aware of the many UR articles. Was unable to understand them or simply didn't read them.
So why would I or anyone else answer the above rant? The person is unable to grasp what will be presented and/or unable/unwilling to actually discus something.

[Abigail]

The writer uses the experiences of a man as an argument for eternal torment. Yet,

Galatians 1
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

A lot of people have gone astray by following a vision a man had. Think about the Muslims and the Mormons. Even if the person who had the vision is a godly man! Paul said the even when he himself (included in 'we') would preach another gospel, to let him be accursed. Seems like he was aware of the possibility to be led astray towards wrong doctrine. Because of this he held the truth of the Gospel (as he had preached it) above all.
The Gospel that Paul preached, did not contain hell. He never mentioned it! This would be ridiculous in the light of the urgency of the subject, would it have been true.


Concerning the specific experiences that are mentioned:
Whether you take the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man as a literal description of the afterlife, or as a parable, take Abraham's admonishment, as told by the Lord Jesus, to heart:

Luke 16
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; THAT HE MAY TESTIFY UNTO THEM, LEST THEY ALSO COME INTO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Did the Lord Jesus change His mind on this?

[Shev]

There is no use responding to such people.
They simply are 100% convinced Jesus is a failure and Father's will is overruled by His creation.
I could give links to several sites/articles that in-depth explain what the Lake of Fire is. How long it takes. Etc

But why bother?
There is plenty of UR material on the main TM site and YouTube.
That person is aware of the many UR articles. Was unable to understand them or simply didn't read them.
So why would I or anyone else answer the above rant? The person is unable to grasp what will be presented and/or unable/unwilling to actually discus something.

I could not agree more, WW. She has read the truth, posted this poisonous diatribe, and would not be convinced even if reams of sublime revelation was to be presented in response. I am reminded of Paul, who said to the Jews who opposed him in a similar vein "since you consider yourselves unworthy, I will go to the Gentiles" (paraphrasing).

[Abigail]

The writer suggests several times that denying the doctrine of hell comes from a liberal point of view.

Liberalism usually means: placing reason above the scriptures, not acknowledging the authority of scriptures, or taking the bible as a metaphoric / inspirational book instead of containing real history. This often leads to the denial of historical events such as Creation, the Flood, the history of the Israelites and of miraculous happenings such as the miracles Jesus performed, his virgin birth and his resurrection.

Liberalism is something very different from acknowledging the writers of the scriptures uses lots of figures of speech. It is important to discern there are different types of writings in the bible. Some are clearly written as history, facts - literally saying what is meant. Yet in the prophetic and poetic writings, the language use is often highly figurative and was never meant to be understood literally. The Lord Jesus also regularly uses figurative speech in his prophesies and parables. He even told the disciples he uses parables on purpose, so that not everybody would understand the mysteries of the kingdom (which would have been different when he had just told them plainly and literally what He meant) - Matthew 13 -
On a certain occasion the Lord Jesus told them plainly what would happen and the disciples said: Ah, now you are speaking plainly to us and not in parables (veiled language and figures of speech)! - John 16 AMP -

I think it is useless to discuss a biblical issue you disagree on, when you use a totally different hermeneutics. It is like speaking another language.
I agree with WhiteWings - there is plenty of materials on TM, that is probably not really read or not understood. You do not have to be afraid to be led astray by any doctrine that is new or different. Just as the Bereans, you can search the scriptures openminded - they were recommended for it!

'These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so'.

[joeteekay]

I agree with all the fine posts on this topic.  :thumbsup:

[Lazarus Short]

Sorry - I just cannot read that stuff.  :doh:

[WhiteWings]

Sorry - I just cannot read that stuff.  :doh:

Some people are blind to the truth.
Some are blind to slander.

Isn't that a nice thought to start the weekend  :laugh:

[eaglesway]

1. Why God has created such a horrible place of eternal torment.
2. Many of the main verses from the Bible on the existence and reality of a place called hell.
3. And the powerful testimony of Bill Wiese, who was literally taken down into hell for 23 minutes and was allowed to experience part of the horrors and torments that actually go on down there.

The word hell does not exist in the original texts. The primary word translated "hell" by early English translators was "sheol"(hebrew) or hades(Greek).

Gehhenna was translated "Hell" about a dozen times"

Tartarus was translated Hell one time in Jude.

So to start with, let's look at Jude vs. 6

"And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting(aidos) chains for judgment on the great Day.

These angels are being "bound over for trial". Tartarus is not "hell". These chains are not everlasting, they are "until the judgment of the great Day".

Of the judgment of the Great Day Paul says, "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" 1 Cor 5:5

So we clearly see here that those who are delivered over for the judgment of the great Day can be saved.

As a universalist I believe in judgement and correction that Jesus defined as "aionion pyr"(age lasting fire). I just do not believe in an eternal Hell. The Lake of Fire is for purging the dross and purifying the offering....

1 Cor 3

For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Again we see people will be judged by the fire of the Day, yet they will be saved through the flames.

The fire is not to torment eternally. It is the fire of God's presence bringing "every hidden thing to light", "trying the motivations and the hearts".

This what Paul says about adversaries, such as the angels in Jude and the man delivered over to Satan.

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."c Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The adversaries will be subjected to Christ and God will become all in all- not all in some.

Tartarus is clearly not hell and the chains there are of the eternal realm, but not everlasting.

Two: Hell occurs as a translation of sheol around 40 times in the KJV. Of the 23 occurences in the NT 20 are "sheol" and 13 are "gehenna".

In the OT there are 31 occurrences where "sheol" is translated "hell".

If the Lake of Fire were "Hell", no one could be there yet, because only those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life on "the Day of the Lord Jesus" will be cast into the lake of fire- after the Great White Throne.

Also if sheol were an eternal "Hell", how could someone get out of it?

Psalm 86:13 "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell."

Apparently the Psalmist experienced hell and was delivered, but it was "sheol", not "hell, and it didnt last forever, because it is a metaphor for death.

Paul tells us in 1 Cor 15:26, "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death."

If death is abolished then the second death cannot last forever. Death is the ultimate adversary. All who walk in darkness are under its reign. But it will be destroyed, when "every knee has bowed, whether in heaven or one earth or under the earth,"

The Psalmist believes his soul was delivered from the lowest part of sheol, also frequently translated, ""the grave"- and there is no mention of eternal burning sheol anywhere.

Also, if sheol is Hell then God is there.

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8

Just as it is written in Revelation 14:10

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

If they are tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb, why is He there?

Because His presence is like fire to the wicked. His eyes are as flames and His face is like the sun shining in its strength. And in His presence, eventually every knee will bow, "For He must reign until every enemy is made a footstool for His feet. The last enemy to be abolished is death".

Death will be abolished when there is no more sin because every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

As for the 13 times "gehenna" is translated "Hell"- How can Gehenna, Sheol and Tartarus all be translated into one word that fits none of them. "Hell" is the word for the underworld of the Norsemen and their mythology. Hades was the underworld of the Greeks and their mythology. "Inferno" was the underworld of the Romans and their mythology. But in the scriptures, "sheol" was the place for all the dead, good and bad. It was the grave...and everyone goes there.

Gehenna was a specific place, in the valley of Topheth, where the reformer King Josiah had burned the bones and destroyed the altars to Baal. The place where Israel had sacrificed their children to Molloch. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees, and if anyone should think they did not understand what He meant then they might wonder why it says the Pharisees "gnashed their teeth" and "rent their garments" when Jesus spoke words that brought their darkness to light and set fire to their false works.

As to Bill Weise. It is the testimony of scripture that overrides every vision and prophecy. I have heard Bill Weise speak. His vision does not sound like a vision of God to me. One of the scriptures he quotes from is from Isaiah 14

Sheol(Bill uses "hell") from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
            It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
            It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.

      10"They will all respond and say to you,
            'Even you have been made weak as we,
            You have become like us.

      11'Your pomp and the music of your harps
            Have been brought down to Sheol;
            Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
            And worms are your covering.'

      12"How you have fallen from heaven,
            O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
            You have been cut down to the earth,
            You who have weakened the nations!

      13"But you said in your heart,
            'I will ascend to heaven;
            I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
            And I will sit on the mount of assembly
            In the recesses of the north.

Is a prophecy to the King of Babylon, and the prophecy is telling him that altho he seeks to be great and rule the world, he will be covered with maggots on the grave like everyone else. Sheol is the grave. It is not "eternal burning hell" or the lake of fire. Bill testifies himself that what he had was a vision.

For other reproofs of Bill Weise's book

http://www.bill-wiese-23-minutes-in-hell-a-biblical-response.com/

As far as anyone who does not believe in eternal torment in hell, going to hell... that is kind of a circular argument. Even if I am wrong about eternal torment, I am washed in the blood of Jesus. He is my Lord. I have bowed my knee to Him and confessed His Lordship. He saved me and has delivered from many trials, and I walk in His presence with joy for His mercy.

" 6 But the righteousness [d]based on faith speaks as follows: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Believing in eternal torment in a Hell where demons torture people(hell is fun for demons I guess) is not what saves us. Faith in the grace of God expressed through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus CHrist is what saves, and Paul testifies in many places in many ways that all will bow their knees and confess His name "to the glory of God the Father"(Phil 2:9-11).

But the most important testimony is that of Jesus Himself.

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me" John 12:32

"Behold, I am making all things new"(Revelations 21:5)

[jugghead]

I too would agree with WhiteWings on this:

Reason is not automatic, those who deny it cannot be conquered by it

Repentance is granted by God Himself and is of the heart (circumcision of the heart which only He can do), only God can remove the veil

How do we know that this guys 23 minutes in hell wasn't God showing him what will be burned up in the Lake of Fire when it is thrown in and he missed God's intention? (missed the mark)

[marie glen]

Oh. My.

How sad to believe that.

That God Most High is not all powerful nor all capable.. indeed is therefor imperfect. Impotent.

Perfection makes no mistakes. Can lose nothing. :doh: :faint:

He cannot create a paradise/perfection? Then He is not perfect! And we know He is!

He (surely?) has done ALL things just as He has, in order to bring about the utter best of all possibilies!! Since He is Perfect, the 'end' result can only be perfection. Anything else is not possible!

"Hell" is translated from five different words! Including the Old Testament Sheol "where there is no thought nor doing" Ecclesiastes 9:10.

Gehenna (we know) is a place! "Fiery" consequences / judgments are upon Earth and in and upon this imperfect world.

He's not creating an ant farm. Surely He is both Life and Perfection. If we are imperfect.. well, that is the opposite of Life. "Therefor death came upon all."

But! "God is the savior of all". 1 Timothy 4:10.

"Each" rises "in their own order, first the firstfruit (Jesus) then those that are His at His coming.. then the end when Jesus submits the kingdom to the Father, so that God will be ALL in ALL" 1 Corinthians 15:22-28. (3 measures of meal)

Jesus said "if i be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL to me" John 12:32,  italics are words added by the translators!

Tartarus and "the pit" - other than the grave - is deepest darkness.. the angels are locked into judgment, unable to reverse their course and become 'perfect' what with being imperfect. (Very!)

Immortality is not inherent, but believers will "put it on" at Christ's return - 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. So there is nobody dying and languishing in a hell. All not yet saved will be resurrected after the millennium of Jesus. Rev. 20.

Ever noticed how the ancient Fall Holy Days begin with "Trumpets"? Prophesying the Revelation trumpets and His return? Then 10 days later is the Day Of Atonement? (Trumpets followed by 1000 years? represented by the 10 days"?)

And then Tabernacles! :banana: - "Behold! I make ALL things new... God will now TABERNACLE with man upon Earth!" :banana:

To my mind, 10 days signifying 1000 years makes 5 days between Day Of Atonement and Tabernacles to be 500 years. (Logic, also logic, if His 1st advent fulfilled the Spring Holy Days.. well, the Fall ones..?)

Day Of Atonement was a national collective day of repentance. ...And reconciliation. A day of weeping and deep remorse.. "And any soul that does not afflict itself will be cut off from the people".. BUT ALAS!

HOW, did the Greek word aion and aionion - root of eon, become forever and ever?? Could it be due to preChristian world view of human immortality and thus a dreary afterlife place needed for all those unruly?

If the Great Judgment 'Day' lasts 500 years.. and at the end God says those not believing/written in the book will go to the Lake of fire.. well, after experiencing being awakened and resurrected from their grave (bed with a gravestone, lol) and after witnessing a long 'day' of the examination of all things and history - a great day of review.. Pounding home His lesson!? Well, after all that.. who's not gong to believe!?! Maybe some totally hard cases? Who will then go to the lake of fire aionion?

Day Of Atonement - DOA for the DOA? (For the 'dead on arrival' / rise still in their sins?) Certainly! Why not!? After all, "With God, ALL-things-are-possible!!"

...geesh.. poor girl.. :faint:

[GodIsLove]

"Since God the Father is a God of maximum intensity, this means that our choice on this issue will have a maximum intense consequence."

Um....I thought God is Love. I did a bible search for the term "maximum intensity" and it's not in the Good Book at all.

Looks like she just invented a new doctrine. 

It's like the age of accountability...not in the Bible but created to justify belief in ECT.

[sheila]

NOT for your sake..BUT FOR MINE OWN NAMES SAKE[LOVE]I  DO THIS. For Him to do other than redeem His whole creation

and perfect it in LOVE would give LOVE a bad name.It would  be the same as saying..ha! God started something and couldn't

finish it. I will not always find fault..for then the very Spirit[love]would even fail.

[rosered]

  As far as  trying to set the prisoners free ,,,Only Jesus can do this  in my opinion .The Truth sets you free .   we sure can  testify of Him  , but  each come   to Christ in their own order  .

I consider  many spend  their whole  mortal lives trapped in Babylon  70 years , Israel  is a good example  (Jeremiah 25:11). After the 70 years were completed at Babylon, God told them He would cause them "to return to this place [Jerusalem]" (Jeremiah 29:10).
  That confusion by mixing the carnal minded of death  , torment and suffering  and the Mind of Christ /Spirit of Life causing many  to stumble , as a trap and snare  in Babylon  the seat of idolatry of  killing the saints   from Gen 11  . ..

Isaiah 8
The Lord of Armies, the Only Refuge
11 For this is what the Lord said to me with great power, to keep me from going the way of this people:

12 Do not call everything a conspiracy
these people say is a conspiracy.
Do not fear what they fear;
do not be terrified.
13 You are to regard only the Lord of Armies as holy.
[color=red]Only he should be feared;
only he should be held in awe.
14 He will be a sanctuary;
but for the two houses of Israel,
he will be a stone to stumble over
and a rock to trip over,
and a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 Many will stumble over these;
they will fall and be broken;
they will be snared and captured.[/color]

16 Bind up the testimony.
Seal up the instruction among my disciples.
17 I will wait for the Lord,
who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob.
I will wait for him.

18 Here I am with the children the Lord has given me to be signs and wonders in Israel from the Lord of Armies who dwells on Mount Zion.

19 When they say to you, "Inquire of the mediums and the spiritists who chirp and mutter," shouldn't a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?


20 Go to God's instruction and testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, there will be no dawn for them.

It is in the Lords prophecy that  , if that light be darkness  how great is that darkness / ignorance ?

darkness

of night darkness

of darkened eyesight or blindness

metaph.

of ignorance respecting divine things

persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway,have great power or influence over a particular person, place, or domain. :sigh:

It is God whom judges the hearts of all His creation  and does an excellent job of it .

We are all praying for deliverance from the bondage  of the sin/error nature .. till we all be completed in  Jesus Christ.

As far as the Bill Wiese story goes , I can see he was given a mental picture of the whole world in chaos  ,those whom do not know God  fully yet  ,  but even God had mercy on Him in the end ,  as He will have mercy  on all  ..

:2c: 

[CST]

I composed my answer to this at a time in the past when I wasn't really posting, consequently while I am posting it now because the topic has been reopened I can't really remember what I said and I'm too exhausted to currently check. I don't think my feelings have changed regarding it, but I won't swear to it. Sorry in advance if you don't like it or it contains bad errors. So, my response:

Wow, this is difficult. The fact that the argument has had to be divided into four posts because of how long it is means it is very hard to respond to all of it. Responses therefore much be piecemeal and only refer to selected points of this lady's argument. It is not possible to respond to all her claims without being very tiresome. I also doubt it's possible to respond to everything in one post if we want to reply in depth.

Gary says, according to Jabcat's introduction, he has directed the woman in question here to see our responses, which is fine, but if she decides to join and answer back all sorts of trouble could follow.

She says there's a website that she's getting a lot of this from. Could someone tell me which website it is so I can avoid it?

So lets see, how to respond to this woman:

The opening comment is clearly rude, not much point in trying to respond to that, the you were supposedly angry, scared or both at the idea of UR, I imagine you had just encountered it and felt the need to vent. There are a few responses that can be made but it doesn't seem worth it as many will come up later.

A lot of the arguments you make are superficially good. That is to say that are built around traditional Christian impressions of God and how to understand His nature, even when we know we ultimately can't. Indeed, many are traditional arguments for Hell and not original to yourself. Obviously, they contain many flaws and unseen caveats; they must do so since the conclusion is wrong, therefore it follows that somewhere the reasoning must be wrong. This is what I will be trying to expose.

Three TRUTHS on this very disturbing and heart-breaking doctrine show that we have no other alternative but to accept the truth of hell because our Bible tells us so:

1. Why God has created such a horrible place of eternal torment.
2. Many of the main verses from the Bible on the existence and reality of a place called hell.
3. And the powerful testimony of Bill Wiese, who was literally taken down into hell for 23 minutes and was allowed to experience part of the horrors and torments that actually go on down there.

1. He hasn't. 2. They aren't. 3. Who made Bill Wiese a prophet? Many of your arguments proceed on this assumption, it's taken as a given that the Bible says the things you've been taught it says and you repeat those claims. Just because 'authoritative' people say things that doesn't mean they are right.

Plain and simple – God is not messing around with this extreme reality – and He has done everything He possibly can through His Word and through His laborers to try and get it through our thick skulls that there is going to be a final fate and final judgment for every single person that He has ever created. We are not going to live forever, and sooner or later every single one of us is going to die and cross over and meet the Lord head on for these final judgments.

Really, the Bible might have something to say about that if the conclusion described here comes to pass. The Bible says clearly, many times, that what God wills to do He will do. Therefore if He really did "everything He possibly can" to save all of us from this fate we can be rest assured we would be saved. He has and we will be, whatever you might say.

To think that a certain percentage of the human race is going to have to spend all of eternity down in hell does not seem to compute with our natural logic and reasoning. It just all seems too extreme. That is why some in the liberal end of Christianity are trying to take this doctrine completely out, because their minds and their hearts cannot understand how or why God would allow such a horrible place of torment to exist for all of eternity.

Our natural logic and reasoning is God given in order for us to fulfill our role of custodianship and stewardship in the world, if it tells us that something is fishy, there's a good chance it is.

Now here is where the problem starts to come in. As we already know, the first class of beings that God decides to create are the angels – the angelic race. Since only God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are God and Lord Themselves and are totally perfect in Their divine natures and personalities, this means that no matter what kind of race God decides to create, they will all be created imperfect.

"As we already know..." How do we actually know this? The Bible is pretty quiet on the creation of the angels so far as I can ascertain, where is your source for arguing from when the angels were created?

As we all know, God chose the latter option, and He gave the entire angelic race the freedom and free will to be able to make their own choices in this life. They can now decide to either stay loyal and serve God and stay on the good and righteous side of the fence in their walk with Him, or they can rebel and go against Him and move to the dark side of the fence. Again, as we all know, Satan and one third of the angels chose with their own free wills to rebel against God and move to the dark side. As a result, they were all cast out of heaven and they will never, ever get another chance to get back in – ever again!!

"As we all know..." Do we? Again, where are you getting your number of one third of the angels? I don't remember the Bible being that clear?

But then God decides to do something different with us than He did with the angels. He decides He is going to give us a second chance, and He then sends His Son Jesus down to our earth to die on the cross for all of our sins so that we can then be made righteous enough through His blood to be able to enter into heaven after we die and cross over.
But once again, we now have the same dilemma. God has now granted us a redemptive pardon through His Son Jesus and His sacrificial death on the cross – but He now wants all of us to come to Him and His Son Jesus out of our own free wills, not by any type of force or coercion on His part.

I agree that man is necessarily imperfect but as that's true for all of us it does not diminish that mechanism of salvation you describe here for any of us, so it doesn't really work as an argument against the mechanism working for everyone because it is perfectly capable of doing so. I hope to say more on this later.

Again, since God is not going to force Himself or His redemptive pardon on any of us, He will give all of us total free will to make this choice for ourselves. The ones who decide to accept what Jesus has done for them and accept Him as their Lord and Savior, they will be allowed entrance into heaven after they die and cross over. However, the people who refuse to accept what Jesus has done for them on the cross will not be allowed to enter into heaven and thus there is only one other place in the entire scheme of things for them to go to – and that is to hell with the rest of the fallen angels.

Here you are making a mistake that a lot of people make when trying to argue from free will. I actually don't believe in free will, but at the moment that's beside the point. You seem to be working on the assumption that God has only two possible choices in relation to human free will. Force them to conform to His will or sit back twiddling His thumbs waiting to see who will and won't choose Him and be saved.

No, the first, as you suggest, is untenable as it undermines the point of free will but the second is unbiblical, the Bible being clear that if God did sit back twiddling His thumbs no one would choose Him because all are lost in darkness and shackled to sin. Remember, as you mentioned earlier, human beings have reason. They will choose God as long as they are persuaded that choosing Him is the most reasonable choice, which it actually always is, or else if God just did something for them by which He can win their love. The first form of this is fickle, human reason can be distracted. People can be misinformed about God so it does not seem reasonable to continue to choose Him even if they previously did. The other thing He can do, is something that is so spectacular that if they really understood it they couldn't possibly fail to give Him their love. So what could He do? Well, giving His life for their lives would probably be a good move. The fact is people don't randomly choose God. They choose Him because He gets them to choose Him, free will has little to nothing to do with it.

God the Father, due to His maximum intense nature and personality, is not messing around with any of us. He has made all of us for Himself and He will not be denied. Though He will never force or make us choose Him and His Son Jesus, He also will not cut us any slack if we make the final choice not to accept Him and His Son Jesus.

In certain ways true, but you're forgetting a few very important points so I will see your Deuteronomy 30:19 and raise you:

"The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful--for he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

This statement from Paul is one of the most important statements on God's nature in the Bible, it is a strong part of the reason I don't believe in free will and a huge factor in what you have forgotten.

The argument you are using here sounds rather like feudal justice which is a spurious concept with many flaws. Nevertheless, as you claim, God is the maximum in all things; He is perfect. As such He cannot be less than perfect, He cannot be unfaithful, unloving, unmerciful or, indeed, unrighteous. As Paul teaches here He is incapable of such things but that leads on to what you have forgotten:

The Bible also teaches that the world is created and maintained only be the continuing will of God. If God's will for the continuation of the world were to stop we would all, saved and unsaved, vanish in the blink of an eye with all our history.

Jesus teaches that faith in Him, in God, is like the man who built his house on the rock, God being the rock. Compared with the foolish man who built his house on the sand. If God were not as Paul describes Him above it would be like the whole universe was built on sand.

But He is like Paul describes and the rock Jesus describes and that is why we can put our faith in Him and why He is worthy of our praise, our worship and our service. This is God's due yet, as it stands, He is denied much of it by many of us. And He certainly doesn't receive it in death.

What you have forgotten is that anyone who exists in Hell or in the Lake of Fire enduring endless torment only does so because God continues to will their existence and thus, it would suggest, their suffering because that's the only existence they have. And the Bible tells us that this is not God's will for us.

But while God takes away the happiness of those in everlasting destruction, they continue to withhold from Him their praise, worship and service which God is due. So is God OK with this? No, God will not be robbed indefinitely of what is His. He will not keep from Himself permanently what should be His because some people are not willing to give it.

You and those like you are of the impression that Universal Salvation is a nice but ultimately irrational, however much it may seem otherwise, idea from those who find the alternative unpalatable. It not, it's the only outcome where justice is done, where evil doesn't roll on forever and where God actually gets both what He wants and what He is entitled.

So ends part 1. I said I'd have to write other posts to answer the other three sections but I don't see why I need to, there's no new material. I don't need to go thorough all your Bible quotes to show why they don't say what you think they say, and that isn't simply a matter of not taking them literally. No one in the world takes the whole Bible literally except if they haven't thought about what it says. The only thing worth mentioning on part 2 here is that there are people who have never seen or read a Bible and so could fairly say that they weren't warned.

Parts 3 and 4, afterwards, mainly concern the 'testimony' of Bill Wiese which I could pick to pieces quite easily but don't see the point since you clearly believe it and I fully expect you will continue to believe it the more I try to take it to pieces.

Instead, for the moment, I will take it as true, for the point of debating with you and then observe that the 'vision' Bill has had is either one of two things. Either it is an unalterable vision of the future which cannot be changed. This means it must come to pass exactly as it is otherwise it would have to be a false vision and thus not from God.

But according to the vision this is not what it is, according to Bill, 'Jesus' in the vision showed him this so that he could warn others. Why he couldn't warn them directly when I suspect that would be more effective I do not know but I do know that if it is a warning it can't be a definite vision of the future. If the warning can't be responded to, to change the outcome it's pointless and 'Jesus' is wasting his time, which he isn't going to do. So you can't use the vision as a promise on the final state of anyone because the outcome must be flexible.

He not only sent His Son Jesus down to our earth to save us, but He literally sacrificed His Son on a cross to pay the full penalty for our sins and to pay the full price to get us back to Himself. Jesus Himself went through the most horrible, bloody, gruesome, and barbaric death known to mankind at the time that He came down to save us.

Yes, quite. The full price, for all of us, but apparently, according to you, Jesus won't get a return on much of what He paid. The mechanism can be effective for everyone, there's no good reason to think it won't be.

Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior through His sacrificial death on the cross and you will live, and then enter into the most glorious and wonderful place you can possibly imagine when you die and cross over – heaven itself – where God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, all of God's good angels, and all of your saved loved ones will live with you for all of eternity in this perfect paradise – with no more pain, sorrow, tears, and heartache ever again for anyone.

Yeah, that's the general story but you mentioned above, according to the testimony of Bill Wiese, that 'Jesus' grieves greatly and persistently over the deaths of all those who go to Perdition. 'Jesus' is in Heaven, yet apparently even He is not able to distance Himself from the pain caused by the idea of all these people suffering forever in the flames. And if He can't even resist this pain while in Heaven Himself how can he make any guarantees that we'll be able to? And, moreover, why should He? How and why should "Jesus' offer us something He hasn't got? We're not going to be happier in Heaven than He is, our perfection can never be greater than God's you made this clear yourself. And that includes God's level of happiness.

Universal Salvation isn't just some reactionary idea to the thought that the doctrine of Everlasting Destruction isn't very palatable. It's an observation of that fact that it doesn't actually work. Now if it had to work, if it was actually what the Bible actually taught than it would be the end of Christianity as a plausible religious movement. But if, in fact, it were the product of historical abuse of the text, of former 'saints', 'canons' and 'theologians' making claims about the content of the Bible which, in fact, they ill-understood and misrepresented, then the better and more correct reading of Universal Salvation would be just waiting to swoop in and take it over. It is most good and fortunate that this is, in fact, the case.

[MHz]

Comment received: YOU ARE A LIAR. THERE IS AN ETERNAL HELL--CALLED THE LAKE OF FIRE--AND YOU WILL BE GOING THERE UNLESS YOU STOP PREACHING UNIVERSAL SALVATION FOR EVERYONE. NOTHING IMPURE WILL BE IN HEAVEN. UNSAVED WHO DIE WILL BE SENT TO HELL AT JUDGEMENT. GOD GAVE US FREE WILL.  HE WILL NOT OVERRIDE A PERSON'S DECISION TO NOT ACCEPT HIM.  HE CANNOT CHANGE A PERSON WHO HAS NOT RECEIVED SALVATION...AND THEN ALSO GOES ON TO ENDURE TO THE END AS A BELIEVER, DYING TO SELF AND SERVING CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR.  YOUR ARTICLE ON UNIVERSALISM IS FILLED WITH LIES. IT IS EVIL...FROM THE MOUTH OF SATAN HIMSELF. RETRACT IT NOW OR FIND YOURSELF IN HELL WHEN YOU MEET GOD AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT.

If I had gotten this my reply would have gone like this.

The punishment for sin is going to the grave. The grave is divided into two parts, one part has people being asleep and the other part has them being awake. The ones that are asleep would start with Abel as he was 1st of mankind to die and enter the grave. The last ones to enter the grave and go to sleep are in the verse below. It is the last event before the 7th trump sounds and that starts the 7 vials being poured out and that is the destruction of the whole of Satan's kingdom, his capital city, Babylon, is toast in just one hours and all of them are poured out and completed in 3 1/2 hours.

Re:11:12-14:
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them,
Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake,
and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:
and the remnant were affrighted,
and gave glory to the God of heaven.
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.

The Beast from the Pit is released from the Pit in the 5th trump verses and that starts a period of 42 months and that ends the day the 7th trump sounds. That is the day he is sent to the fiery lake.

The 'Pit' is also in the grave, only the people that end in tat part remain awake rather than being asleep. The 1st ones there are the fallen angels during the flood. The pit if you are a person also means you remain awake but there is a locked gate between immortal fallen angels and the sons and daughters of Eve whole are mortal and that is why they are there.

Satan has not been in the pit so at the return he is chained up and put into the Pit. The next event for him is being released and being sent ti the fiery lake along with the rest of the fallen angels.

The men in hell mock Satan during that time because the gate remains locked until the Great White Throne event. (Isa:14) When in chains his title is Licifer.

When you enter the grave all of your sins are forgiven, even if you have been sent to hell.  The punishment for sin is death. The ones sent to hell are Gentiles who are still sinners when the 7th trump sounds. They are punished more because the two witnesses were proof of a literal God and they ended up following a false version of a literal God. The 'many stripes' parable is the core teaching for that belief.

The Bible is based on prophecy and fulfillment and that is not over until the end of Judgnment Day and the free will is for the ones that are offered a drink of living water. The ones there are free to drink or not. The 2nd reference hints at how many take the drink.

Re:21:6:
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Re:7:9:
After this I beheld,
and,
lo,
a great multitude,
which no man could number,
of all nations,
and kindreds,
and people,
and tongues,
stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes,
and palms in their hands;
Re:7:10:
And cried with a loud voice,
saying,
Salvation to our God
which sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb.

When a prophecy states that 2/3 of all the people on the planet are destined to still be believes in Satan on the day the vials are poured out those people are not using their free will as God has determined they are not part of the group that is saved ASAP. They are in the group that is saved at the last possible moment instead.

Isa:54:1:
Sing,
O barren,
thou that didst not bear;
break forth into singing,
and cry aloud,
thou that didst not travail with child:
for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife,
saith the LORD.

Zec:13:7-10:
Awake,
O sword,
against my shepherd,
and against the man that is my fellow,
saith the LORD of hosts:
smite the shepherd,
and the sheep shall be scattered:
and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire,
and will refine them as silver is refined,
and will try them as gold is tried:
they shall call on my name,
and I will hear them:
I will say,
It is my people:
and they shall say,
The LORD is my God.

Zec:14:3:
Then shall the LORD go forth,
and fight against those nations,
as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec:14:16:
And it shall come to pass,
that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King,
the LORD of hosts,
and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

A list is given in the passage this verse comes from so it is the sequence that Jesus follows when killing all the sinner on the globe.

Jer:25:32:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.

Isa:65 expands on 'the rest' from Re:20 and then show how the sword in the last verse in Re:19 is the same sword that sends some people to the grave and they are then left awake so their punishment continues. The ones alive at the start of the 1,000 years all live in the Jerusalem in that chapter as it is the Jerusalem from Re:21.

The rest of the communication is a rant by a 3rd rate troll so it doesn't get a reply.

[darryl]

re that email you received.....been there done that...years ago I used to preach eternal hellfire on the street...I'd go out with church groups and preach eternal judgement at passers by on the main streets of town....needless to say I was not a particularly loving person...i still struggle with being a loving person but I am more loving than i was then...Im also more humble and less judgemental...I look at people and think 'well, God really DOES love them and is going to save them so I should love them too'...rather than look at people and despise them deep inside cos i think God is going to cast them into eternal hell...that's the difference. :dsunny:

[darryl]

There is no use responding to such people.
They simply are 100% convinced Jesus is a failure and Father's will is overruled by His creation.
I could give links to several sites/articles that in-depth explain what the Lake of Fire is. How long it takes. Etc

But why bother?
There is plenty of UR material on the main TM site and YouTube.
That person is aware of the many UR articles. Was unable to understand them or simply didn't read them.
So why would I or anyone else answer the above rant? The person is unable to grasp what will be presented and/or unable/unwilling to actually discus something.

it must be a form of blindness.....years ago, as soon as a friend of mine explained UR to me and showed me the Biblical evidence, my long held belief in eternal hell crumbled...its extraordinary to me how others I share UR with obstinately continue to hold onto and cling to their 'eternall hell' belief...I'm starting to feel maybe they 'choose' to hold onto it cos it makes them feel 'special' they arent going there, or something...hmmmm.

[marie glen]

..These days I try to summarize the whole thing with the idea (truth) that yes sin destroys and brings to ruin but not forever.

Those that are breathing out threats of hell, aren't going to hear.. but some humble listener just might. Then it's just all the glorious verses.. both straight out U.R./C.U. and also implied.. As we go along, our list gets longer.

And logic. As we know, God is Good. God is Almighty, which attribute is someone contradicting? And He "is perfect", perfect makes no mistakes ( :laughing7: ) and can lose nothing.

Sometimes I try to explain the pattern of His 2nd advent - the 3 peaks of - prefigured (imo) by the stretched out pattern of the Fall Holy Days of Lev. 23

it must be a form of blindness.....years ago, as soon as a friend of mine explained UR to me and showed me the Biblical evidence, my long held belief in eternal hell crumbled...its extraordinary to me how others I share UR with obstinately continue to hold onto and cling to their 'eternall hell' belief...

re that email you received.....been there done that...years ago I used to preach eternal hellfire on the street...I'd go out with church groups and preach eternal judgement at passers by on the main streets of town....needless to say I was not a particularly loving person...i still struggle with being a loving person but I am more loving than i was then...Im also more humble and less judgemental...I look at people and think 'well, God really DOES love them and is going to save them so I should love them too'...rather than look at people and despise them deep inside cos i think God is going to cast them into eternal hell...that's the difference. :dsunny:

Amen, Darryl! I was thinking the guy who wrote the email must have a lot of stress and trouble.. 'vexation of soul' going on.. He sounds a bit stressed out.. frustrated.. kind of in a rage..

[darryl]

..These days I try to summarize the whole thing with the idea (truth) that yes sin destroys and brings to ruin but not forever.

Those that are breathing out threats of hell, aren't going to hear.. but some humble listener just might. Then it's just all the glorious verses.. both straight out U.R./C.U. and also implied.. As we go along, our list gets longer.

And logic. As we know, God is Good. God is Almighty, which attribute is someone contradicting? And He "is perfect", perfect makes no mistakes ( :laughing7: ) and can lose nothing.

Sometimes I try to explain the pattern of His 2nd advent - the 3 peaks of - prefigured (imo) by the stretched out pattern of the Fall Holy Days of Lev. 23

it must be a form of blindness.....years ago, as soon as a friend of mine explained UR to me and showed me the Biblical evidence, my long held belief in eternal hell crumbled...its extraordinary to me how others I share UR with obstinately continue to hold onto and cling to their 'eternall hell' belief...

re that email you received.....been there done that...years ago I used to preach eternal hellfire on the street...I'd go out with church groups and preach eternal judgement at passers by on the main streets of town....needless to say I was not a particularly loving person...i still struggle with being a loving person but I am more loving than i was then...Im also more humble and less judgemental...I look at people and think 'well, God really DOES love them and is going to save them so I should love them too'...rather than look at people and despise them deep inside cos i think God is going to cast them into eternal hell...that's the difference. :dsunny:

Amen, Darryl! I was thinking the guy who wrote the email must have a lot of stress and trouble.. 'vexation of soul' going on.. He sounds a bit stressed out.. frustrated.. kind of in a rage..

yup, Marie....he needs prayer and love..just like I did !  :Pray:

[rosered]

 

..These days I try to summarize the whole thing with the idea (truth) that yes sin destroys and brings to ruin but not forever.

Those that are breathing out threats of hell, aren't going to hear.. but some humble listener just might. Then it's just all the glorious verses.. both straight out U.R./C.U. and also implied.. As we go along, our list gets longer.

And logic. As we know, God is Good. God is Almighty, which attribute is someone contradicting? And He "is perfect", perfect makes no mistakes ( :laughing7: ) and can lose nothing.

Sometimes I try to explain the pattern of His 2nd advent - the 3 peaks of - prefigured (imo) by the stretched out pattern of the Fall Holy Days of Lev. 23

it must be a form of blindness.....years ago, as soon as a friend of mine explained UR to me and showed me the Biblical evidence, my long held belief in eternal hell crumbled...its extraordinary to me how others I share UR with obstinately continue to hold onto and cling to their 'eternall hell' belief...

re that email you received.....been there done that...years ago I used to preach eternal hellfire on the street...I'd go out with church groups and preach eternal judgement at passers by on the main streets of town....needless to say I was not a particularly loving person...i still struggle with being a loving person but I am more loving than i was then...Im also more humble and less judgemental...I look at people and think 'well, God really DOES love them and is going to save them so I should love them too'...rather than look at people and despise them deep inside cos i think God is going to cast them into eternal hell...that's the difference. :dsunny:

Amen, Darryl! I was thinking the guy who wrote the email must have a lot of stress and trouble.. 'vexation of soul' going on.. He sounds a bit stressed out.. frustrated.. kind of in a rage..

yup, Marie....he needs prayer and love..just like I did !  :Pray:

  Amen   bro Darryl & sis  Marie ,

From the scriptures  , it says there is a  type glory in the law of sin and death , making one aware   of their sin nature   and that is a good thing .

  But getting stuck   in it    for me , meanings they have not grown much in truth and grace  ,

   as God would give the increase if they would show mercy   they could obtain  mercy though   the righteous judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ  ,  to  enter into   the good news of the gospel  to know the love of God fully   though His word  and the   way of truth   to be set free   from sin and death

  Exposing sin   is only half of the   whole  ,   we are to  come to Christ ,  as Jesus showed us right there on His cross  , that we should also  do the same  , take up our cross and follow in the same manner   so we can see Jesus .

   for sin we  all die  ,but by faith in Jesus we are dead  in body already but alive in Spirit ,  but to forgive  them  Father for they do not know  what they are doing  towards others ,

But in Him there was no sin / error    if Jesus has made you clean by the Word spoken to you   like the foot washing   example   , all but our feet  , we are shake the dust off    and move on  and pray to the FATHER  for that enemy of the Cross  ,

   Just as Stephen  did in Acts    7 another great example  he was stoned to death , he who is without sin cast the first stone   Jesus teaching us not to be so judgmental  ,   for Stephen heaven opens  and sees Jesus /Life & Light  in death  .

Saul was there and he  was still in the darkness  still thinking he was doing God a service  by killing  anyone who did not keep the law    by his own standards     , but He did not know   God in his ignorance   , just an idea  in his own mind  leaning on his own understanding .
 
It was not until   Jesus come and blinded him with the Light did he know the truth  , scales of pride fell off his eyes  .
  He taught us by example     that Jesus said , if you break one law you broke them all  .

Showing us it is impossible  to keep all the law that it would take the  Lord Jesus Christ  to  Finnish  the work   of the law of sin and death and raise the dead back to Life again though Him keeping all the law  and that is to LOVE GOD  first and your neighbor as yourself  because the Christ  Spirit  in you is the Hope of glory  , the seed /Word of God  planted in our pure minds/virgin  /hearts  that keeps us pure  as holy in  the Fathers  presence .

  boldly go before the throne of grace  and keep   growing in the Truth and grace of GOD  as  His children /offspring making everything new  and complete , perfect and entire in Him   the husbandman   whom   was sent from heaven above  ,&  His body  the New Jerusalem ,  the true church   free woman ,   where the offspring    come out of  and mother of us all .
 
Gal 4
Yes it is spiritual  in nature , but it is souls redeemed from the earth   and it is a glorified  body  kept in / hidden like a pregnancy   in Christ , till  they have their own glorified bodies  as the sons of God are revealed .   

Romans 8 Future Glory 

18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us.

19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope...

Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the sons of Israel Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered; And in the place Where it is said to them, "You are not My people," It will be said to them, "You are the sons of the living God."

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God--

Romans 8:14
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Romans 8:18
I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us.

Romans 8:23
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.



Romans 9:26
and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"


The power to believe the truth in these scriptures are exciting  as we wait on the Lord to fulfill them !!!   :banana: :dsunny:


Jesus is our peace  and makes us peacemakers  ..  freedom from disturbance; quiet and tranquility.
"you can while away an hour or two in peace and seclusion"
synonyms:   tranquility, calm, restfulness, peace and quiet, peacefulness, quiet, quietness; More
2.
freedom from or the cessation of war or violence.    :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

There is no use responding to such people.
They simply are 100% convinced Jesus is a failure and Father's will is overruled by His creation.
I could give links to several sites/articles that in-depth explain what the Lake of Fire is. How long it takes. Etc

But why bother?
There is plenty of UR material on the main TM site and YouTube.
That person is aware of the many UR articles. Was unable to understand them or simply didn't read them.
So why would I or anyone else answer the above rant? The person is unable to grasp what will be presented and/or unable/unwilling to actually discus something.

it must be a form of blindness.....years ago, as soon as a friend of mine explained UR to me and showed me the Biblical evidence, my long held belief in eternal hell crumbled...its extraordinary to me how others I share UR with obstinately continue to hold onto and cling to their 'eternall hell' belief...I'm starting to feel maybe they 'choose' to hold onto it cos it makes them feel 'special' they arent going there, or something...hmmmm.

The question is: Did you really see it because of your friend or did God allow you to see it?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

It's not exactly the same as what you wrote. Or perhaps it's in a certain way.
Perhaps Peter was told many times Jesus was the Christ but he simply didn't process that info willingly or unwillingly. Until God lifted the veil.
Maybe God never told Peter directly Jesus was the Christ. But God allowed Peter finally 'get it' after failing to 'get it' 100 times before.

Veiled, bound to disobedience, parables because they aren't supposed to know.