An Inhuman God

[eaglesway]

the word for "perfect" in Matthew 5:48 is "telios" which means "consumated goal" and is refering to growing in the divine nature imo

1 Cor 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature(telios).

It is clear that we are not perfect in many places in scripture. Jesus teaches us how to forgive and to be forgiven because whether or not we are becoming mature is made is evident in how we deal with out imperfections.

Paul, Peter, James and John all include many instructions in their epistles about dealing with our faults, sins, and imperfections.

Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.

If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Forgive one another; forbear one another; in as much as it is possible be at peace with one another.

What is perfect about the Father is that He loves and forgives the imperfect.

In fact, the fundamental error of Israel is that they approached the law as a means to perfection rather than regarding it as a guide to living generously and in harmony with one another.

IMO this kind of comes back around to the OP. We are created in the image of God and in becoming like Him we are becoming mature in love, wisdom and understanding. This occurs through the revelation that God loved us when we were yet sinners(imperfect) and has, through His Son, imputed a perfection in us that is being imparted as well as we grow in grace- not as we become obedient to statutes.

We grow in grace as we freely give grace.

Freely you have received freely give. If you would be perfect, love your enemies and forgive them. Love one another that your joy may be full.

[CST]

Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?

[rosered]

I'd say my 'vision' was a lot less involved than John's although it was a representation of the ending so it was probably the most important bit (I don't want to divide the weight of the test o the Bible that much).

At the time I just thought I got 'left behind' owing to not been ceremoniously clean at the time.

You have probably quoted the most encouraging line of scripture going, although ETers and EDers tend to reduce the weight of the word 'we' in that quote. And given what the Gospel actually is there should probably loads of encouraging linesin their and we shouldn't have to try as hard as some of us seem to have searched to find them.

   Thinking you were not left behind , but being prepared  by the Lords teaching and comforting Spirit  working in you  CST

I was   woke up this morning with the thought being ,   anyone whom   is  still caught in the ''trap''  of accusing their brother before the Lord day and night , is  still got some pride  left  to be burned out of them  :sigh:

I have considered  this  as a lesson when  following after them   , realizing that  fear is real  at the time that you may also be a cast away  ,   and so the   Love  of God has not been  worked though them yet and emptied them out fully     , once you have been though that  type of lesson learned , you do not ever  want to taste not,  touch not.  or handle not ever again ...   
You can tell folks till your blue in the face , but they will not actually  know what you mean till that experience   is worked though them   and made a heart knowledge rather than a head knowledge   
God deals with us all according to our needs  and gives us His  Holy Spirit , oil to keep the  home  fires burning and the light   in check   even if we  sleep , like the ten virgins  had  and when we rise   that will determine  whom is ready to meet him in the air , in my opinion  [ the Kingdom of heaven is like] 

[rosered]

Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?

  Thanks John , good thoughts  CST ...   the mark of the higher calling  come up here !!   thinking above  and not below

  mature , complete ,  entire   James 4 Rejoicing in Trials
...3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him....

I do believe the Holy Spirit  is what does the work in us all  , this is my faith    of it  , Love of God kind , is the result of Holy Spirit  fruit   

[eaglesway]

Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?

Sin is missing the mark.

Hitting the mark is the "consumated goal" of being like God, forgiving sin and giving grace to overcome sin, conformed to the image of Christ the image of God.

It is a major difference in perception that needs to be defined(imo)

Christ's glory is not because He was perfect and did not sin.

Jesus always loved(His Father and His fellow man), therefore He never sinned.

This distinction informs our discipleship, as we bear His yoke and learn of Him to be meek and lowly of heart(broken and contrite).

All our righteousness is as filthy rags. It is as we love with His love that we experience His righteousness and there is no sin imputed to us because we are partaking of the grace that flows through faith. Faith that is focused in His love will yield greater grace. Greater grace will yield more of the divine nature. It is through partaking of the divine nature we find ourselves walking in victory over sin and sins- because we are always loving and forgiving. Against the fruit of the spirit there is no law, because the tree of life is planted in the divine nature through grace.

"Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputes no iniquity".

These are the friends of God. They are not perfect under the law, they are perfect in character- becoming like Him with whom they resonate/harmonize, loving and forgiving the imperfect, the perverse, the twisted- reconciling them out of perverseness through recognition/revelation of the superiority of love- Christ crucified as the image of God, the manifestation of the divine nature.

[CST]

I'd say my 'vision' was a lot less involved than John's although it was a representation of the ending so it was probably the most important bit (I don't want to divide the weight of the test o the Bible that much).

At the time I just thought I got 'left behind' owing to not been ceremoniously clean at the time.

You have probably quoted the most encouraging line of scripture going, although ETers and EDers tend to reduce the weight of the word 'we' in that quote. And given what the Gospel actually is there should probably loads of encouraging linesin their and we shouldn't have to try as hard as some of us seem to have searched to find them.

   Thinking you were not left behind , but being prepared  by the Lords teaching and comforting Spirit  working in you  CST

I was   woke up this morning with the thought being ,   anyone whom   is  still caught in the "trap"  of accusing their brother before the Lord day and night , is  still got some pride  left  to be burned out of them  :sigh:

I have considered  this  as a lesson when  following after them   , realizing that  fear is real  at the time that you may also be a cast away  ,   and so the   Love  of God has not been  worked though them yet and emptied them out fully     , once you have been though that  type of lesson learned , you do not ever  want to taste not,  touch not.  or handle not ever again ...   
You can tell folks till your blue in the face , but they will not actually  know what you mean till that experience   is worked though them   and made a heart knowledge rather than a head knowledge   
God deals with us all according to our needs  and gives us His  Holy Spirit , oil to keep the  home  fires burning and the light   in check   even if we  sleep , like the ten virgins  had  and when we rise   that will determine  whom is ready to meet him in the air , in my opinion  [ the Kingdom of heaven is like]

:laugh: No, I probably wasn't left behind. But it did make me wonder about the nature of the rapture (which I've long doubted actually) and whether it really is this single event that a lot of Fundamentalists seems to suggest where a huge body of people vanish from the Earth, when maybe it could something more personal spread over history.

I really think I'm caught in that trap to some degree or the other. The last time managed to burn my bridges without trying was something like that. Trying to warn someone about aspects of their behavior which worried me, which I think I'm instructed to do, but the discussion went the wrong way and it wasn't construed that way.

You mean that all the virgins slept, it was the half that didn't have the oil they thought they needed that had the problems? I'm not sure I can't remember the parable that well. I can rather remember my responses to it though, but I don't think this is the thread to discuss them. I do remember the parable suggested it was the bridesmaid own fault and none of God's (or anyone's) lack of provision they didn't have the oil they should have. I agree though not, necessarily, for the surface reasons.

Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?

  Thanks John , good thoughts  CST ...   the mark of the higher calling  come up here !!   thinking above  and not below

  mature , complete ,  entire   James 4 Rejoicing in Trials
...3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him....

I do believe the Holy Spirit  is what does the work in us all  , this is my faith    of it  , Love of God kind , is the result of Holy Spirit  fruit   

I've asked for wisdom sometimes, I'm not sure if I've received it or not. I'm a bit unsure about such request and how much weight they having seeing that Solomon asked God for wisdom,received wisdom and then shortly after displaying his wisdom went off and did some very foolish things. Quite probably the most foolish he could do in his circumstances.

Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?

Sin is missing the mark.

Hitting the mark is the "consumated goal" of being like God, forgiving sin and giving grace to overcome sin, conformed to the image of Christ the image of God.

It is a major difference in perception that needs to be defined(imo)

Christ's glory is not because He was perfect and did not sin.

Jesus always loved(His Father and His fellow man), therefore He never sinned.

This distinction informs our discipleship, as we bear His yoke and learn of Him to be meek and lowly of heart(broken and contrite).

All our righteousness is as filthy rags. It is as we love with His love that we experience His righteousness and there is no sin imputed to us because we are partaking of the grace that flows through faith. Faith that is focused in His love will yield greater grace. Greater grace will yield more of the divine nature. It is through partaking of the divine nature we find ourselves walking in victory over sin and sins- because we are always loving and forgiving. Against the fruit of the spirit there is no law, because the tree of life is planted in the divine nature through grace.

"Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputes no iniquity".

These are the friends of God. They are not perfect under the law, they are perfect in character- becoming like Him with whom they resonate/harmonize, loving and forgiving the imperfect, the perverse, the twisted- reconciling them out of perverseness through recognition/revelation of the superiority of love- Christ crucified as the image of God, the manifestation of the divine nature.

:smile: So, like, in the context I'd be describing simply not missing the mark would be neutral and what the "consummated goal" is active and positive. I was thinking not sinning, not missing the mark presupposed the requirement to hit it.

I still find it hard to believe I'm in the non imputed group given what keeps happening in my relationship with others frequently. I'm still not sure I have the faith that saves given to me I find it hard to see myself successfully meeting the character that text describes.

[rosered]

:laugh: No, I probably wasn't left behind. But it did make me wonder about the nature of the rapture (which I've long doubted actually) and whether it really is this single event that a lot of Fundamentalists seems to suggest where a huge body of people vanish from the Earth, when maybe it could something more personal spread over history.

I really think I'm caught in that trap to some degree or the other. The last time managed to burn my bridges without trying was something like that. Trying to warn someone about aspects of their behavior which worried me, which I think I'm instructed to do, but the discussion went the wrong way and it wasn't construed that way.

You mean that all the virgins slept, it was the half that didn't have the oil they thought they needed that had the problems? I'm not sure I can't remember the parable that well. I can rather remember my responses to it though, but I don't think this is the thread to discuss them. I do remember the parable suggested it was the bridesmaid own fault and none of God's (or anyone's) lack of provision they didn't have the oil they should have. I agree though not, necessarily, for the surface reasons.

I apologize from trailing off the  topic  CST  , but to clarify    the   main reason for  lack   was to me .

   All   the  ten virgins  slumbered  &   slept     the meanings can vary , it is to become  indifferent about their salvation   ,

cool off  phase  , this happens to us all , we all fall short in my opinion  .

  I believe the difference  between the  5 wise and five foolish , is    the wise   get their oil from the Lord[Holy Spirit teaching them ]   and the foolish  are still buying   as if  receiving   from Babylon 

   :dontknow:  Just what all is involved  , I sure enjoy simple answers over all the hype and hubbub   .

I've asked for wisdom sometimes, I'm not sure if I've received it or not. I'm a bit unsure about such request and how much weight they having seeing that Solomon asked God for wisdom,received wisdom and then shortly after displaying his wisdom went off and did some very foolish things. Quite probably the most foolish he could do in his circumstances.

He had the earthly wisdom   CST ,  the time for  that was in his day to prove   that earthly wisdom could not save  no one   , the Lord Jesus Christ come to show us

  It is the wisdom from above and earth and below    found in following  the pattern  set by the Father though   the gift of   the  Jesus Christ that   in His death being the cross poured out His Spirit on all flesh  and would know'' all things  ''   by the Holy Spirit coming and staying with us and the mind of Christ  being the Head ,  for us to led by , just  what I have gathered from scriptures   so far .   

  Eph 1 Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom
...20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,...

1 John 2 ...19They went out from us, but they were not really of us;

for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth....

I do believe the  last two churches are   what we are  in ,  and the division   of the true brotherly love Philadelphia    church  or the laconian    being victory/ power of the people    This is just me though , some may share  this differently   and that is fine

But God has granted  them   the ability and warning to come out of   that   Laodicean last day church   
Everyone has their own ideas about it   and just sharing  my own .   It is up to the Holy Spirit to quicken anything  and give the increase , we just plant the seeds  or water  , which is nothing   or can come to nothing   until  God gives the anointing on it  and the Light of Knowledge shines upon it  as it is written ...

  Word of God   said  , the labours of love   are bearing  fruits of the Holy Spirit and are blessed  in these deeds .
  So not to be taken lightly  ,  the sleepy  vigins    and the wise  and foolish ones  are between these two  last  churches  in Revelation of Christ  perhaps  ?

I am for one who believe it is so .    God bless you with more of Him  CST , and  to one and all .

[marie glen]

Oh  sis!
  I love you to pieces lol    ha ha  :girlheart:   

Love of God  kind , that wants nothing but good things for all   mankind , not just a few chosen  loved ones  :winkgrin:

The  Lord has blessed us all beyond  measure  , His patience   His goodness  and faithfulness   and gentleness    , peace  and joy  being His miracles   and signs  of LIFE    working  in the times /ages  and stages     and continual supply    though the Lord Jesus Christ      :HeartThrob:

  A favorite thought  as of late ,       life and death are yours " all things" are yours , what an inheritance  ! ," all things "    also work together   whom love  the Lord


1Cor 3 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish,[ call that carnal mind  a fooler  and deception is death and  an enmity against the Spirit of Life and dwells in us all  God is fair  that way  !]

so that he may become wise. [putting on the mind of Christ  that all things can become new and living and pleasing to the Living God ]


For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.

For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness";

and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless."

So then let no one boast in men.


For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come;

all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

What a wonderful thing to  focus on " we all belong "  to  God and not to ourselves   that seems to be the foolish thinking  that we some how own   anything , but is loaned and borrowed  from God   being slaves to err    that we Know Jesus CHRIST DID buy   back   with His own blood  , a purchase   and a   precious price ,  that will  bear fruit to  the Father  as it is written   and spoken and   finally known to all .

Amen sista!!  :thumbsup: :iagree: :girlheart: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

I was trying to write 'ants' again and somehow I wrote answers instead....

:laugh2: :laugh2: now I get it... :smile:

[CST]

:laugh: No, I probably wasn't left behind. But it did make me wonder about the nature of the rapture (which I've long doubted actually) and whether it really is this single event that a lot of Fundamentalists seems to suggest where a huge body of people vanish from the Earth, when maybe it could something more personal spread over history.

I really think I'm caught in that trap to some degree or the other. The last time managed to burn my bridges without trying was something like that. Trying to warn someone about aspects of their behavior which worried me, which I think I'm instructed to do, but the discussion went the wrong way and it wasn't construed that way.

You mean that all the virgins slept, it was the half that didn't have the oil they thought they needed that had the problems? I'm not sure I can't remember the parable that well. I can rather remember my responses to it though, but I don't think this is the thread to discuss them. I do remember the parable suggested it was the bridesmaid own fault and none of God's (or anyone's) lack of provision they didn't have the oil they should have. I agree though not, necessarily, for the surface reasons.

I apologize from trailing off the  topic  CST  , but to clarify    the   main reason for  lack   was to me .

   All   the  ten virgins  slumbered  &   slept     the meanings can vary , it is to become  indifferent about their salvation   ,

cool off  phase  , this happens to us all , we all fall short in my opinion  .

  I believe the difference  between the  5 wise and five foolish , is    the wise   get their oil from the Lord[Holy Spirit teaching them ]   and the foolish  are still buying   as if  receiving   from Babylon 

   :dontknow:  Just what all is involved  , I sure enjoy simple answers over all the hype and hubbub   .

I've asked for wisdom sometimes, I'm not sure if I've received it or not. I'm a bit unsure about such request and how much weight they having seeing that Solomon asked God for wisdom,received wisdom and then shortly after displaying his wisdom went off and did some very foolish things. Quite probably the most foolish he could do in his circumstances.

He had the earthly wisdom   CST ,  the time for  that was in his day to prove   that earthly wisdom could not save  no one   , the Lord Jesus Christ come to show us

  It is the wisdom from above and earth and below    found in following  the pattern  set by the Father though   the gift of   the  Jesus Christ that   in His death being the cross poured out His Spirit on all flesh  and would know" all things  "   by the Holy Spirit coming and staying with us and the mind of Christ  being the Head ,  for us to led by , just  what I have gathered from scriptures   so far .   

  Eph 1 Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom
...20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,...

1 John 2 ...19They went out from us, but they were not really of us;

for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth....

I do believe the  last two churches are   what we are  in ,  and the division   of the true brotherly love Philadelphia    church  or the laconian    being victory/ power of the people    This is just me though , some may share  this differently   and that is fine

But God has granted  them   the ability and warning to come out of   that   Laodicean last day church   
Everyone has their own ideas about it   and just sharing  my own .   It is up to the Holy Spirit to quicken anything  and give the increase , we just plant the seeds  or water  , which is nothing   or can come to nothing   until  God gives the anointing on it  and the Light of Knowledge shines upon it  as it is written ...

  Word of God   said  , the labours of love   are bearing  fruits of the Holy Spirit and are blessed  in these deeds .
  So not to be taken lightly  ,  the sleepy  vigins    and the wise  and foolish ones  are between these two  last  churches  in Revelation of Christ  perhaps  ?

I am for one who believe it is so .    God bless you with more of Him  CST , and  to one and all .

I see the parable slightly differently by marrying with other saying and parables of Jesus that are recorded at least in some manuscripts of the Gospels. But as you say it's off topic so this probably isn't the place to go there.

I'm not sure how you are making the distinction between wisdoms here the scripture clearly says that God told Solomon to ask for what he wanted. Solomon asked for wisdom. It then says God was pleased he had asked for this and granted him it. He then went off and displayed this wisdom right up until the point he used a conscripted workforce to build his own house, married rather too many wives and went off worship other gods.

I don't like the idea that God was pleased with what Solomon asked for and then gave him something substandard. That sounds rather tricksy.

Still the idea does make sense of some of the dubious content in Ecclesiastes.

Bless you too, Rose. Amen

[CST]

I was trying to write 'ants' again and somehow I wrote answers instead....

:laugh2: :laugh2: now I get it... :smile:

Yes, laugh at me. I'd rather others would laugh at stuff I get wrong. They tend to get really offended rather much.

[rosered]

I see the parable slightly differently by marrying with other saying and parables of Jesus that are recorded at least in some manuscripts of the Gospels. But as you say it's off topic so this probably isn't the place to go there.

I'm not sure how you are making the distinction between wisdoms here the scripture clearly says that God told Solomon to ask for what he wanted. Solomon asked for wisdom. It then says God was pleased he had asked for this and granted him it. He then went off and displayed this wisdom right up until the point he used a conscripted workforce to build his own house, married rather too many wives and went off worship other gods.

I don't like the idea that God was pleased with what Solomon asked for and then gave him something substandard. That sounds rather tricksy.

Still the idea does make sense of some of the dubious content in Ecclesiastes.

Bless you too, Rose. Amen

   Thank you CST  , 
For your  kindness    and sharing your thoughts   , I  can   also agree with you  in the   10   virgins     the five foolish  variation of  marrying another  :thumbsup:

   I cannot disagree with that   ''layer of truth ''  many layers  to discover ,     to me there are several ways to look  at    a parable and describe it    in our perceptions,

our state  of being  , or    light  and    rising [Romans 14 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,]     I see this    site   , as  a table   set  before us and eating and drinking  of His  body  and drinking His blood  that we  might   have life in us    and  discerning  His body  of believers    ,  that all parts work together as One   and Lifting the   LORD UP    to draw all men unto Him and no  messy food fights lol ]

One thing I have learned is    we never stop learning     ha ha  :laughing7:  But   continue growing in truth and grace   as  God permits .


  My reasoning  for Solomon in all his glory   , being the glory of   mankind   was  always the  way  the scriptures   has  worded in    old testament and Jesus own words   in the new

Solomon  just  wanted to rule his own kingdom  as a  fair and just king   there are varying degrees of glory  in the earth and in heaven [ 1 COR 15 ]    and  every last   one of them saw corruption,  everyone  except    the Lord Jesus Christ     .

  This is My beloved Son  here  Him ,,,   Today if you hear   my voice  and harden not your heart to provoke God  Hebrews 3:15  The  time is now   the dead shall hear my  voice and Live  John 5:25  none could   make such a claim  as the Lord Jesus Christ  and tell the truth .

    , To me  corruption  is the image of  sinful mankind in his  deadend state    ,  Jesus Christ tasted death for every man on   the Cross ,  so He can be the Lord of the dead and the living     and  defeat all enemies     and the last one being death    ,  so when death comes to man    in what ever  state  of corruption   man is in ,  and cries out to God   and softens his heart   towards God   ,  so is  the victory is in JESUS CHRIST .

  A greater than Solomon is Here ,,,  Jesus Christ is the servant of all   and gave His life , laying it down to take it back up again  , no one ever has done this before.

and Jesus   told  the  disciples James and John   that they did not know what matter of Spirit they were of   ,  when they wanted to bring fire down on   that city that had rejected Jesus  teaching and He  said I did not come to destroy mens lives but  save them ..   

  Matt 12 The Sign of Jonah  is   this sign right here ,,,

...41"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah;

and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

42"The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it,


because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.

   For me  in sharing this  it is just the signs of the times  ,  God has always shown a  progression     over the ages  and stages and increase  ,  when a Word is for that particular time   it will come to pass   ,  openly for all to see       , many say where is God in all this  mess   and state the world is in  , But Jesus Christ has said 
    The prince/  ruler  of this  world  is coming and  has  nothing in Me   , the  ruler of this world is already judged    , etc ,,  many scriptures about this  world  set for   destruction    and with fervent heat   as   sodom and Gomorrah     , and the Lord left His seed   the WORD OF LIFE ..

and you have passed from death to life    when Love of God overcomes the world   

1 John 3 Love One Another
...13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.

14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him....

John 5:24
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 13:35
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

1 John 2:10
Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.

1 John 5:2
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.

I do believe how we Loved  will be greater than how we  know  all things ,  because to know all things is to Love  with every fiber of our being  , what is good and right in the sight of God  ,   loving Him  because He loved us first and gave  of  Himself for us    .  Jesus Christ is the Love of God manifested to    the world , for God so loved the world that He gave his only one of a kind Son  that whosoever   believes    this much   has     this, His  life  working in them .  by the Spirit of truth  with  the Word of truth   as a witness  on their account   and His   holy work will not fail   us .

God bless you CST , and wanting to  share exchanges  , this got rather long   , so thank you for your patience  with me trying to explain what is in my heart  and thank you for  the  blessing .


   

[rosered]

 
     Thank you for explaining    your question  of  the distinctions between the two wisdoms  CST ,   the above and below   types , I did a bit in the  above post

But to further clarify the  two types of wisdom    one of the earth and one of the heavens  and their glory to God making Him True and every man a liar .

Lots of scriptures in these  defining the wisdom of the world and the Wisdom of God    and how the two   prove     Truth   

  To be carnally minded is death   , the wisdom of mankind    and its glory   making  Solomon rich   and with wealth and fame comes the pride of life  and the lusts  in them things can cause the falling   away  and stumbling  from a higher seat / state   to a lower state  /seat  and seeing corruption  , every king of the earth  saw corruption   ,  sin , error and death   decay ,  bearing the image of Adam  dwelling in death  and will also bear the Image of  Jesus Christ  and made alive

   He was seated with Christ in heavenly places   by his anointing  of God , but could rise no further than God  permitted    , at that time it was glorious     ..  Jesus had not come yet to fulfill all things yet .

 

I'm not sure how you are making the distinction between wisdoms here the scripture clearly says that God told Solomon to ask for what he wanted. Solomon asked for wisdom. It then says God was pleased he had asked for this and granted him it. He then went off and displayed this wisdom right up until the point he used a conscripted workforce to build his own house, married rather too many wives and went off worship other gods

The Word of the Lord Stands Forever
...23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, 25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

All flesh is as grass   and glory is for a moment  in   that moment  the Word of God is   glorified  ..
Job 14:2
They spring up like flowers and wither away; like fleeting shadows, they do not endure.

Psalm 39:6
"Surely everyone goes around like a mere phantom; in vain they rush about, heaping up wealth without knowing whose it will finally be.

Psalm 103:15
The life of mortals is like grass, they flourish like a flower of the field;

Isaiah 40:6
A voice says, "Cry out." And I said, "What shall I cry?" "All people are like grass, and all their faithfulness is like the flowers of the field.

Isaiah 51:12
"I, even I, am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fear mere mortals, human beings who are but grass,

Matthew 6:30
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you--you of little faith?

James 1:10
But the rich should take pride in their humiliation--since they will pass away like a wild flower.

   There is  more      scriptures    JESUS says I am from above you are below , I am the way  the Truth and the life .. and the rising and falling of many  because of Him Then Simeon blessed them, and he said to Mary, the baby's mother, "This child is destined to cause many in Israel to fall, but he will be a joy to many others. He has been sent as a sign from God, but many will oppose him.

  John  8 22So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come '?" 23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

]24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."...



    James 3 True Wisdom from Above


...14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth.


15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.

16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing....

1 Cor  1 Christ the Wisdom and Power of God


...23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.


Wisdom is justified of  all her Children   , the Wisdom from Above comes down   and every  child born again  of Spirit in truth     [John 3 ]    same as Eve  mother of the living   is saved   by  giving birth to all the earthly  children and no law but are a law into themselves  as judges ,   till the law comes [this age ]  in bondage of sin and death  under the law   , 

  so is the Church  being  the Body of Christ and this age of grace     [ Ephesians 5  His body of believers ]     and Galatians   4 

Bond and Free
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.

23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh,

and the son by the free woman through the promise.

24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants:

one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.

25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.


26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

"Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband."
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

30 But what does the Scripture say?

"Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

So  the children of   Gods promise to Abraham   "  inherit   all things "    life and death  all things are yours ..

    Those  sand of the sea shore  children  have no light in them but are tossed from waves and the   dead sea

  but those  as the stars of heaven  have the light of Christ[anointing ]  in them and shine forth    but can and  do rise and fall

   Though one falls 7 times God is able to make  him stand ...

  Jacobs ladder   &  dream  Genesis 28:10-17    heaven opened when Jesus Christ  set in place    to  fulfill all things
son of man  angels ascending and descending

John 1 50Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these." 51And He said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."

Genesis 28:12
He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.


  The rise and fall of many     in the Lord Jesus Christ    , those  made whole   and many  are broken and scattered . 

Our  Rock  not made with human hands that becomes a mountain in the earth   Daniel 2   

       Going here and there  , I apologize   ,   but it is what  it is   ,    So many scriptures connect    to one another    and speak to our hearts ..   God bless and keep you .

[CST]

As I said I obviously, still consider my interpretation of the parable but the way you describe it may be more mutually exclusive compared to mine than I initially thought.

My concern over the difference between the wisdoms isn't in how the Bible describes them it's what it pleased God to give to Solomon because he asked for it, why it would please him to give him Earthly wisdom if it does so much damage and why Solmon wasn't short changed that he didn't get the better one. You say Solomon only wanted to be a fair and just king? The impression I get from the text of the OT is that as soon as he strayed into idolatry he wasn't anything of the sort and there's an implication he wasn't much of the sort before hand.

I was also of the impression that the term (earthy) wisdom in many of your quotes is ironic shorthand for idiocy. And that wasn't what Solomon asked for.

No messy food fights? No Fun!  :laughing7: :dsunny:

God bless!

[rosered]

As I said I obviously, still consider my interpretation of the parable but the way you describe it may be more mutually exclusive compared to mine than I initially thought.

My concern over the difference between the wisdoms isn't in how the Bible describes them it's what it pleased God to give to Solomon because he asked for it, why it would please him to give him Earthly wisdom if it does so much damage and why Solmon wasn't short changed that he didn't get the better one. You say Solomon only wanted to be a fair and just king? The impression I get from the text of the OT is that as soon as he strayed into idolatry he wasn't anything of the sort and there's an implication he wasn't much of the sort before hand.

I was also of the impression that the term (earthy) wisdom in many of your quotes is ironic shorthand for idiocy. And that wasn't what Solomon asked for.

No messy food fights? No Fun!  :laughing7: :dsunny:

God bless!

I did not mean to bold all that   :sigh:  I  did  not ,,, and am   so sorry ..

     It is ok    CST ,   we all see    according to the grace of God in  His word and  Spirit  ,  sometimes      we have just what we need , it is all at the Lords hand  and in power
  God bless you   and trying to fix the  messy bold , pressed the wrong  button somewhere  :doh:

  I had forgot to include     this  main verse CST , and thought of the   promise of Abraham being the children /seed ,  great as sand of the sea  and stars of heaven and ; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Gen 22   16-18     

1 Kings 4 Solomon's Wisdom
29Now God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment and breadth of mind, like the sand that is on the seashore.

30  Solomon's wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the sons of the east and all the wisdom of Egypt.

31For he was wiser than all men, than Ethan the Ezrahite, Heman, Calcol and Darda, the sons of Mahol; and his fame was known in all the surrounding nations.

[eaglesway]

Solomon received heavenly wisdom, which is fruitful in earthly endeavors

Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.

He departed for a time from the path of righteousness, but his wisdom never left him

For the gifts and callings of Gd are without repentance

Once he came to his senses he wrote about the futility of all that is under the sun, so we reap the harvest of both his wisdom and his foolishness :o)

[rosered]

Solomon received heavenly wisdom, which is fruitful in earthly endeavors

Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.

He departed for a time from the path of righteousness, but his wisdom never left him

For the gifts and callings of Gd are without repentance

Once he came to his senses he wrote about the futility of all that is under the sun, so we reap the harvest of both his wisdom and his foolishness :o)

I agree with you John and CST , but cannot help think of Jesus Christ proclaiming a greater than Solomon is HERE   !!


Solomon come in  peace   , but not to hold his "thoughts " above the Lord Jesus Christ   in my   simple opinion .  He was one whom    did   folly   , to rise and fall  , stumble  in many times and ways    and eating the fruits of  his labours and hardships   and sacrifices   and sins / errors    made under the law , lessons learned   just a whole  lot like us  all   given the truth  in the Word by his Spirit .

  There is no name under  heaven by which you must be saved ..

Solomon was  set  as  an example of     how wisdom   along with riches and wealth does not save  us  , those earthly  lusts  for  strange women  caused  great   plunder and scattering  without  faithfulness  , hope  and love   these  3   remain  an   excellent  foundation to build upon in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ   , the temple not made with human hands ,   we all now know  is the truth   now ..


I cannot help but think , what was Pilot getting at ,  Asking    the Lord Jesus Christ  "What is truth?  " .  For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
   Is this not the same reason for which we are born again  from above  ?


This is my beloved son  , hear  Him .
...34 While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

26   These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.

27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you;


but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.


I  believe that  Solomon was  a part of the many voices   , many waters of Life     from Above  for the time it was    his anointing  to be a king of the earth , but life and death was  both working  in Him  , by the power of the tongue /language /speech .

  Because the whole volume of the BOOK is written of   ME   Hebrews  10 Christ's Sacrifice Once for All


...6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.

7"THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'"

8After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,

NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law),...

LOVE fulfilling the law ,,,,   As foolish as this may sound to anyone   hearing me  right now , I have to say  it , I believe the  "loving your neighbor as your self ,  goes far deeper than   human   wisdom , but we know that   now   by the scriptures , The flesh wars against the Spirit    and the Spirit   wars against powers and principalities in high places , this being the  seat of    our hearts   both is dwelling within us as near as a neighbor    ![ The LIVING GOD   not very far from anyone of us [Acts 17] 7 Spirits of 7 eyes   the Lamb slain    from the foundation of your world  has come !!  Rev 5 

When the Spirit  of the Holy One  whom is all Life and peace  sits  in the seat of our hearts[Mind of Christ]   we consider the   carnal nature /neighbour ,   that mind is all about   death  , but wars against the Spirit  of Life  being the enmity, the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.  and  putting   those enemies  under your feet , the teaching of the gospel , having  peace within yourselves first  and salted  with fire   , humbled  as that Law  of Love  is  actively  being asserted   in all  that is within you ,     the world in our hearts [   Ecc 3 ]   that Wisdom of God that rules over all   flesh  and  Father of spirits    etc...
   



Freedom in Christ
...13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 19:19
honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Matthew 22:39
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

[CST]

I'm not quite sure what you're apologizing for I never had a problem with the bold. I did manage to create for myself a problem in somehow exceeding my word count when original replying to you but I can't see your bold would do that I think I was careless somehow.

Because this issue about Solomon's wisdom is clearly confusing and contentious last night I decided to return to the source. Here is what the Bible actually says:

1 Kings 3:5-14

At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in an dream by night; and God said, "Ask what I shall give you."

And Solomon said, "Thou hast shown great and steadfast love to thy servant David my father, because he walked before thee in faithfulness, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart towards thee; and thou hast kept him for this great and steadfast love, and hast given him a son to sit on his throne this day.

And now, O LORD, my God, thou hast made thy servant king in place of David my father, although I am but a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in.

And thy servant is in the midst of thy people whom thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered or counted for multitude.

Give thy servant therefore an understanding mind to govern thy people, that I may discern between good and evil; for who is able to govern this thy great people?"

It pleased the LORD that Solomon had asked this.

And God said to him, "Because you have asked this, and have not asked for yourself long life or riches or the lives of your enemies, but you have asked for yourself understanding to discern what is right,

behold I know do according to your word. Behold I give you a wise and discerning mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall rise after you.

I give you also what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that no other king should compare with you, all your days.

And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statues and my commandments as your father did, then I will lengthen your days."

Fair, few qualifications there, 'all your days' presumably is meant to qualify 'after you' in some way, probably because as you say and remind us Jesus actually exceeded Solomon in all things including the fact that, unlike Solomon, He didn't stray while, if this is to be understood as written, Solomon knew full well, the idolatry he went after was evil (because we're told he could discern the difference) he went and did it anyway. Presumably, the lesson here isn't Solomon's wisdom suddenly disappearing, it's wisdom not being a sufficient condition by its self to resist temptation. Which, I suppose makes sense.

Nevertheless the context makes clear, as EW points on, that Solomon received heavenly wisdom. The things he didn't ask for would be the demands of Earthly wisdom.

Though to be fair Solomon seemed quite wise in asking for it in the first place. Although not so great in keeping the commandments, perhaps; the chapter opens on him forming a marriage alliance with Eygpt by marrying the Pharaoh's daughter, something the law seems to forbid.

Loving your treatment of the great commandments.  :dsunny: I'd say they were off topic, though, except I don't think they can ever be off topic.

[rosered]

I T totally agree with your    sharing  CST  and the   scriptures themselves     and  Ew ,

And found no contention   at all  , quiet the opposite really , I love  it when we  can all   reason  for our  beliefs and how we come to them conclusions  .

  It  helps  to refine it much better   and clarify   the truth    ,  and am all for the truth  in   the Love of God   and   you have helped me see  it was  Heavenly wisdom that done Solomon   well     in his days of being a king of the earth     .

CST says
 

I'd say they were off topic, though, except I don't think they can ever be off topic.

  Agreed ! Love   and the grace  of God has no bounds :HeartThrob:   

  Gods blessing as always

[CST]

 :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

God bless Rosered!

[jugghead]

Something that came to mind with Solomon and his partaking of the fleshly things reminded me of the verse that says "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17)

Is "a sin not unto death" one for the purpose of identifying with another to help them, for example: like that new weight loss show, where the trainer gains all that extra weight just for the purpose of identifying with another (becoming as) and works with them through the process of losing the weight for the assurance they are not alone.

For just as Christ took upon Himself a likeness of the flesh, to help others overcome the flesh (desires of), because it is only through His work in us that this can be and is accomplished.

[rosered]

Something that came to mind with Solomon and his partaking of the fleshly things reminded me of the verse that says "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17)

Is "a sin not unto death" one for the purpose of identifying with another to help them, for example: like that new weight loss show, where the trainer gains all that extra weight just for the purpose of identifying with another (becoming as) and works with them through the process of losing the weight for the assurance they are not alone.

For just as Christ took upon Himself a likeness of the flesh, to help others overcome the flesh (desires of), because it is only through His work in us that this can be and is accomplished.

  Thank you wonderful thoughts Jugghead ,

You made me think of these verses       He tasted death for every man 


  2 Cor 5 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ,

as though God were making an appeal through us

; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Heb 2 ...8YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him,

He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings....



I hope you are  doing well     and good to see you back    , God bless you  always 

 

[CST]

That's a fascinating quote. Comparing like for like in various translations there a several that do not have the indefinite article in the noun phrase "a sin" in some it just says "not all sin leads to death" or similar which, of course, suggests a different idea.

[eaglesway]

I think a sin not unto death is a sin that is a minor violation under the OT law. Sins unto death are those that only repentance can release.

If I see someone smoking, or someone struggling with gluttony, or an addiction of some other type I can pray for them to be forgiven, and God will forgive them and release grace(life) to them to help them overcome that sin.

:2c:

[CST]

I struggle to dilute sin like that, all sins are offences against the will and purpose of God, whatever else they are and thus, I would say, pretty serious.