An Inhuman God

[rosered]

Oh Shelia ,  you   said it  ,

  It is the Holy Spirit as teacher  and comforter  after the lessons  learned  by testing our faith   

to master and rule over the sin in our bodies , as it is dead to sin  , but life in the Spirit is our hope this is why faith without works /  Holy Spirit  power    working though us  is dead !!!      oh my  gave a flood of many other things too ,  such as the    they cannot fast when the bridegroom is present , the  stones [hearts ]would cry out
  I was looking at  fasting and it was to do with     the power of  faith  and hope in the Spirit     making alive    the Word of God and powerful and moving and the bonding or union of Love   that death cannot separate

http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2902&t=KJV&page=2  wow !!    :HeartThrob:

Abstaining  from foods is eating  of the   tree of knowlege of good and evil!!! and keeping silent as the mouth is  shut ...  shutting the door and praying in secret

  This is what Jesus done in the wilderness 40 days and nights   when tempted of   the devil   being sent by the Holy  Spirit right after the     Jordan  , descent baptism  as the    was Pleased  fulfilling righteousness   under the law     / Jordan river .... 

He only used the WORD OF GOD   against satan to rebuke him   so  he had to flee    from His presence     perfecting faith  with the works of the law   though the    Holy Spirit of love    and deny the temptation to  exalt   Himself  above others  , by turning stones to bread or    given power over   the cities or throw Himself down   to tempt the   Father   , but become a servant to all   though He be the Only begotten , one of His kind ,  Son of God .

Jesus was about equality    and loving  all the same    , helping the lesser and putting the more equipped to help out more  , sharing and caring  in that same Love of God upon all   
  We saw Peter  needing help of  Jesus  and than  when he was converted "turned around "     to  help feed the sheep  because He loved  Jesus  , and  Jesus loved him first when he was   so needy   and sinner  saved by grace ..      Love works both  ways

[sheila]

would also like to bring into remembrance..that God 'PURPOSELY" confused the tongue of the people building the tower to reach

unto heaven to make a name for themselves. As Jesus Christ is the only way...and I haven't yet figured out if man has left off

that endeavour...I think not..where unitarism...and the NWO is concerned.


  not one stone left upon a stone...certainly at His return He picks them up one by one...all that has been scattered unto the four

corners of heaven and earth.

     Matt 26;31  ....all of ye shall be offended by me this night..because IT IS WRITTEN.."I WILL SMITE THE SHEPHERD AND

THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED ABROAD.   there is a time for every purpose under heaven...a time to gather and a time

to scatter.    surely men/sheep have been scattered all over the earth...............

       2Thess 2;1  Now we beseech you brethern,by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,and by our gathering togather unto Him

  that ye be not soon shaken in mind,or be troubled neither by spirit,not by word,nor by letter as from us....that the  DAY OF CHRIST

IS AT HAND.   Let no man deceive ye by any means;for that day shall NOT come until the falling away FIRST..and the

MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED!!!!!!!  the mystery of iniquity...and THEN Shall the wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume

with the spirit of His mouth................

    look for it,children..look for it....He shall reveal it....

[rosered]

God is:

Love of Wisdom AND Wisdom of Love ..... Love of Wisdom rules WITH Wisdom of Love .....  they rule together as One (equals)

Whereas in men:

love of wisdom rules OVER wisdom of love ..... which causes the division between the two

  Yes   bro knowledge will cease   !!    but LOVE REMAINS!! 

   There is no greater POWER  than LOVE !!   GOD IS LOVE .. and the bond of perfection . complete and whole  in HIM

  Faith is the very substance and measure[seed of Hope   Alive   being   JESUS CHRIST being the   WORD OF GOD ]   given to every man  ,   

and this  tiny seed planted in our earth  by the Father


   Luke 17   The Power of Faith
5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

6And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree,

'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and it would obey you.

7"Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?...

   The earthly  express the power of   faith  TO  MOVE  mountains , trees   out of its place    and change things !

[sheila]

and little children..I do not want you to be dismayed by the revelation of the man of sin......for you will find that the strong delusion

was given unto satan and the demons..that they should ever win in a war against Father and Jesus Christ.  That they should ever

..through their wicked works..cause Our Father to lose even one child[not even Judas] and though through satans wicked works

man has been prey and misled and confused and those believing in Christ divided and scattered by it all. That Jesus will do away

with all confusion of mankind with His consuming breath...and gather us all togather..we who wait on Him.

   love to you all..God's mercy and Blessing and peace be upon you.

[jugghead]

and little children..I do not want you to be dismayed by the revelation of the man of sin......for you will find that the strong delusion

was given unto satan and the demons..that they should ever win in a war against Father and Jesus Christ.  That they should ever

..through their wicked works..cause Our Father to lose even one child[not even Judas] and though through satans wicked works

man has been prey and misled and confused and those believing in Christ divided and scattered by it all. That Jesus will do away

with all confusion of mankind with His consuming breath...and gather us all togather..we who wait on Him.

   love to you all..God's mercy and Blessing and peace be upon you.

:dsunny:

[CST]

Thank you, Rosered. I just hope it's a simple as your post suggest (if I've understood correctly). The commandment to love each other sounds pretty simple for a clue to what the next age must be like. But God's made everything and they still seems to be a lot the will not get into Heaven or be in Heaven. I like the idea of being 'free in spirit' but I suspect there's still a rather bad piece of carnal minded think in the reading. I tend to see the word 'free' as 'free to do' and that's a problem because not actually sure what Ill be free to do though there's a fair few things I sure I won't be free to do and expect I won't want to. The snag is that all those things are things I don't want to do now if I can help it and that seems very carnal minded, hence my original post in this thread which, I admit, was probably not as clear as when I first conceived it.

  Hi  there  CST ,

     For me it is mankind  trying to figure  out God  , and that is  not possible ..     and it goes into many things  , but keeping it simple as a child can  understand it  , is what helps the most , cause if Rose  starts adding to the word of God or taking away  ,  than  here  comes trouble  ,   this is why the Lord said let your yes , be yes and no be no , anything more   evil is present   and ready to  bind us   up again  and cast us   into prison    for judgment .
    Jesus did some amazing "miracles    same as signs   " and said tell no man    , man would hinder      the Spirit
  always a  3 part   thing for some reason ,

Here is what helped me the very most   ,  If you can see God  made Adam in the beginning  in His own  image [ Gen1 ]     that is Spirit   and  in Gen 2  as  a soul[ nephesh   a   creature  of the earth  [subject to vanity and emptiness   futility   in other words fruitless and  subject to  corruption  bondage to sin and error  ]    dust of the ground   with  a breath in Him      and the 3rd part and best part  the BODY   of Christ ... 

   we are in the body of Adam  death realm and also in the Body of Christ LIVING   realm , that is the heavenly  place  , we  go in and out , remember  Jesus telling his  chosen  few    , pray , pray  pray   to not fall into  temptation ,   for the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak [This to me is one big reason  why Jesus  CHRIST  IS THE LORD master   / teacher   ruler of the dead and the living   and contains ALL THINGS    till GOD BE ALL IN ALL  ,,,    Jesus christ is RECONCILING  all things to  the  FATHER   and no man knows !!  you look at the world and see Chaos  and it looks    like the opposite  ,,,    but the Spirit knows all things  are working together for the good of those , love Him  and   whom are  called according to His own purpose ..     We get to partake of the Spirit in a  small way here and now  and become apart of the BIG PICTURE  .

  Why would Jesus call this a  fall  or enterance  into  a place  of temptation?  , that to me is the lower  state of being    carnal minded     from a higher  state of being    Spiritual minded ..
  Pray    we do not enter   or  fall   , stumble    trip up  , into temptation   is the sleeping in Adam      Matt 26 Jesus Prays at Gethsemane
...40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?

41"Keep watching and praying that you may not enter/ fall  into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."...

now I do believe   that   in Adam all die or    consider it    a  sleep  in sorrow   ,    this is because God shortened the days of our weakened  flesh   ,     from 930 years of being subjected to     evil and all the vile   things in mans hearts  coming forth  being ruled by SIN / ERROR / MISSING THE MARK  ..

To me the mark is the seal of   God and redemption  though GODS grace  and mercy  on us ,   the covenant  of promises made throughout the WORD OF GOD ..

Prayer is key to keeping the hearts door open    to receive     the things of the Holy Spirit   , and the time to close the   hearts door   and wait on the Lord to do  His thing   because He is with you  ,  as  the overflowing scourge passes   over us ,  Just as the lambs   blood was on the door post  in the days of Israel    we too experience the same  chastening    of obedience or disobedience  , or we too will be swept  away   by the flood of lies 

Babylon is what  we are to avoid  , and that is the mixing   of good and evil and all becomes spoiled and useless   ,  because corruption has entered in  a little leaven    can  cause a rising , in the good  and also in the evil    and this is the  discerning the spirits if they be of God or not ..

  Because it is a spiritual warfare   we are battling  with  on a daily basis  and if GOD  be fore you who can be against you ?


   There is  as much or as little   you can   experience   all depending on what the Lord has called and  chosen you to experience  in this   time  on earth , but I believe it is only the beginning   of making all things new   within us
  You / none would not even believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God without the HOLY SPIRIT   giving it to us  as a free gift  and if you use the gift for   good and   GOD  in HIS MERCY will give the increase    according to His  desire   .

I have those carnal moments and am tempted to  fall from GODS   GRACE  but  always asking Jesus for help and tell Him constantly   LORD YOU  know me better than  I know myself ,  Just like Peter was  in error  and was called   satan / adversary to GODS WILL  / desire    ,  I too miss  the mark and  error and pay for it with  , not  getting to stay in the Spirit  of peace and joy in the Lord , but God sure knows we want to   be with Him..    and please HIM  and love Him like he loves us       

Hello, Rosered. This thread has really grown since I lost the post I was meant to send you last week. I imagine somehow God didn't wish for me to send it then. I certainly like and enjoy much of what you say though I am not always sure what I do and don't agree with.

I'm certainly not sure that I'm very good t putting the word of the Bible into practice in fact I think I'm very bad of it. But faith would suggest that if I was in the 'saved now' group I would be good at it and if I'm in the 'saved later' group then there'd be nothing I could do about it.  I find these thoughts confusing especially as they make the faith I mention seem to be a kind of paradox. Only people in the saved now group actually have faith but if I'm not in that group then where's the information about 'what faith tells me come from'?

Do you believe that people really lived 930 literal years in those days. Those sorts of thought create other paradoxes in my head because I believe spiritual death does exist and really occurred in the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree.

I suspect the phrase 'the wages of sin is death' may suggest that each of our sind in fact repeats or reinforces that death. Living in that sate for nearly a millennium doesn't sound pleasant.

The mixing of good and evil is an interesting one as I'm not if it's impossible to do or impossible to avoid or what in one case the best deeds can be undermined completely in the light of one evil one but on the other hand I don't believ anyone who walks the Earth is perfectly either. They can't be surely? Very strange.

"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" it says but I don't think that means atheists can't make the statement believing they are speaking falsely.

The Bible says a lot of things and seems to contain many paradoxes that are both confusing and fascinating.

[eaglesway]

I think God knows, from His perspective, what we are or are not capable of, from His perspective. We, if we are wise seek His face and endeavor to abide in Him, so that we can grow with the growth that comes from God through grace.

I believe that it is made simple for exactly that reason- because we do not have the perspective from which to figure everything out. "Abide in me"....."Watch and Pray"....."Walk in the Spirit"

Better to trust that He loves us, or he wouldnt have sent his son for us. He forgives us, or He wouldnt have hung on that cross for us. he understands our weakness, or he couldnt be that priest, ever making intercession for us in the presence of God.

[rosered]

Hello, Rosered. This thread has really grown since I lost the post I was meant to send you last week. I imagine somehow God didn't wish for me to send it then. I certainly like and enjoy much of what you say though I am not always sure what I do and don't agree with.

I'm certainly not sure that I'm very good t putting the word of the Bible into practice in fact I think I'm very bad of it. But faith would suggest that if I was in the 'saved now' group I would be good at it and if I'm in the 'saved later' group then there'd be nothing I could do about it.  I find these thoughts confusing especially as they make the faith I mention seem to be a kind of paradox. Only people in the saved now group actually have faith but if I'm not in that group then where's the information about 'what faith tells me come from'?

Do you believe that people really lived 930 literal years in those days. Those sorts of thought create other paradoxes in my head because I believe spiritual death does exist and really occurred in the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree.

I suspect the phrase 'the wages of sin is death' may suggest that each of our sind in fact repeats or reinforces that death. Living in that sate for nearly a millennium doesn't sound pleasant.

The mixing of good and evil is an interesting one as I'm not if it's impossible to do or impossible to avoid or what in one case the best deeds can be undermined completely in the light of one evil one but on the other hand I don't believ anyone who walks the Earth is perfectly either. They can't be surely? Very strange.

"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" it says but I don't think that means atheists can't make the statement believing they are speaking falsely.

The Bible says a lot of things and seems to contain many paradoxes that are both confusing and fascinating.

  Hi CST ,
I am for one glad you question everything ,     you remind of myself , I am constantly questioning    every thought     that comes to mind or shared  by others here at the forum or in the Word of God / Bible .  and I do not know many things  and do become   confused   at times , but  that is when I go silent   and  have nothing to say .     This is when I ask    Jesus to help me understand   what He wants me to know now 
I do not trust folks whom say they have it all figured out  , I do respect my elders though   and when    the Spirit  quickens a Word  in that moment , it makes alive a hope in me that makes me try harder  and not give up , because   sometimes I really do want  to

I do think if you ask   the Lord Jesus, He will help you understand  in ways  you never  considered  possible .
I do believe even faith comes from the Lord , many asked   in the Word   for Him to increase    their faith    ,and I also ask,  many here ask  , you asked or you would not even be here  , I do believe that things are as Given of the Lord we have  nothing of our own  ,

  The seed planted in your heart is the   Word of Faith  and hope and Love  , these 3 things are what we got to work with as the Holy Spirit   teaches us

  How we are born again from above  ,  faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying   and our Hope is in the Spirit of Life   that quickens us  in the Love of God

  We  grow in truth and grace     as in Gods  desire  , not our own desire  , it would be like me ready to ride a mountain  bike  when I am only prepared to ride  a tricycle  in reality  , our expectations of faith are proven by   the testing of it    ,     I do believe   this  with all my heart   , like Peter when   he thought he was full of faith  and would not deny Jesus   when tested and what did he  do  ?  When Jesus told him  He would deny HIM  3 times before the morning come /  rooster crowed     oh no Lord not me !!   but  He did  , I can so relate to Peter  in many of those examples  in the Bible  and when He said he loved Jesus

  Jesus did not give up on Peter  though ....  and He will not on anyone  seeking to please the Father ....

  Jesus told him , Peter  do you love me   3 times ?   It hurt   Peters  feelings   that the Lord doubted him , How could Peter prove  love to Jesus ? by feeding His  lambs / sheep !  wow this is  an  honor to serve the Lord by  feeding his lambs and sheep   spiritual food for thought .  the WORD OF GOD  , eat my body and drink my blood that you might have life in you ...  JESUS CHRIST  IS SALVATION OF GOD and the grace given as a gift to every one .

John 21 ...16He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." 17He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep. 18"Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go."...19 Now this He said,signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He *said to him, "Follow Me!"
   
  For me ,  this   stretching out your hands ,  has a powerful meaning  , that the carnal mind can only question  what that means  ,  It means to me   that Peter would also   follow Jesus    in that same cross of suffering for   obedience unto death     and  this test of faith does glorify God  by overcoming the   world   , this is death to me   ,this is why are to consider our bodies as good as dead  already so the Spirit of Life can rule over it and  not sin .


I do believe the Lord shortened the days of our flesh for the elects  sake[called out of the world  in it but not of it ]  Jesus prayer John 17      , in those days are   still our days The Abomination of Desolation    has always warred against the Holy Spirit   from the beginning    Gen   2  when Adam ate   death reigned  till the law come   though Moses to   expose  sin and it would become utterly sinful   till  ,   Jesus Christ come to  destroy it  and reign in its place    Life for death
   Romans  6 , 7 , 8    hen Paul was showing it was sin in his own members  . body of death  that the law showed him what sin was  , and thanked the Lord Jesus Christ for   delivering Him from that body of death ..

...21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him....

I agree that we can be  spiritually dead but alive in the flesh  as sin  rules    till the law comes and exposes the sinful  beast   within us that is contrary   to God  , this would be the most miserable    of times and totally powerless to  overcome  , but as  Paul said in Romans   8    we can glorify God by the Lord Jesus Christ delivering us from that   state of being     , that is a spiritual war  that  kills    that  vile , prideful  arrogant   spirit within us   ,,   so we can now be joined to Christ 

body of believers , you will believe after that  battle !   I believe Revelation   explains the process    to the T ...or cross    with the opening   the seals
 
That John  was able to declare  to us only because He was in the Spirit on the Lords day  and not in  the flesh    and the Lords day is what every    carnal beast will experience    with that spirit of babylon  ruling  his  heart   , it was because John had the Spirit of prophecy   which is the testimony of Jesus Christ in his heart  and opened   to receive  the things of God though the Spirit 

This may sound  odd to you and I sure hope some things were clear   ,   I have never been able to speak plainly as some do  , But God knows    it is only to help and not stumble anyone .  God bless 

[rosered]

I think God knows, from His perspective, what we are or are not capable of, from His perspective. We, if we are wise seek His face and endeavor to abide in Him, so that we can grow with the growth that comes from God through grace.

I believe that it is made simple for exactly that reason- because we do not have the perspective from which to figure everything out. "Abide in me"....."Watch and Pray"....."Walk in the Spirit"

Better to trust that He loves us, or he wouldnt have sent his son for us. He forgives us, or He wouldnt have hung on that cross for us. he understands our weakness, or he couldnt be that priest, ever making intercession for us in the presence of God.

  Yes ,,   it took a while to write and am poor in writing skills  , thanks bro for saying something  in case I was not able too.

  :HeartThrob:  you are so right it is waiting on the Lord   and clinging to Him , He is our protection and our help in the hour of need . 

Thank you for the  opportunity to explain  more  CST , God bless you and all

[rosered]

and little children..I do not want you to be dismayed by the revelation of the man of sin......for you will find that the strong delusion

was given unto satan and the demons..that they should ever win in a war against Father and Jesus Christ.  That they should ever

..through their wicked works..cause Our Father to lose even one child[not even Judas] and though through satans wicked works

man has been prey and misled and confused and those believing in Christ divided and scattered by it all. That Jesus will do away

with all confusion of mankind with His consuming breath...and gather us all togather..we who wait on Him.

   love to you all..God's mercy and Blessing and peace be upon you.

:dsunny:

AMEN !    :HeartThrob:   Glory to God in the highest praise possible ,   Love has covered us by His own blood .
Thank you Jesus .

[marie glen]

about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile:

I agree.  Ken Vincent's article was interesting, and generally seems on track/informative etc. to me.  I will mention, he is a unitarian universalist (generalizing, "anything/any belief [or nothing] goes").  That's one reason Gary has made sure to distinguish between Tentmaker as a Christian/Biblical UR, vs. other forms of universalism, many of which don't even suggest a belief or personal faith in Jesus Christ.

I agree.
I dislike the word Universalist.  To most people it conveys some ideology in variance to what the Bible teaches.  It is true that the word Universalism is not found in the Bible.  The word brings to peoples minds a kind of new age thinking or an idea that the work of Christ is somehow diminished.  That also is unfortunate.  So I believe that Universalism is an inappropriate word when talking about God's plan for mankind.  Simply put: God through Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world. All will be saved. That is the simple truth that ultimately all will be saved and God will be ALL in all.

amen... universal belief/following Jesus...

I wonder? did universalism begin grounded in God's Word? but then wandered or fell away from God's word? And into mere thoughts and ideas of human thinking? Or were they never really grounded in God's word to begin with? :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

Amen... universal belief/following Jesus...

I wonder? did universalism begin grounded in God's Word? but then wandered or fell away from God's word? And into mere thoughts and ideas of human thinking? Or were they never really grounded in God's word to begin with? :dontknow:

The restoration of all things was proclaimed on the first day the gospel went forth(Acts 3:17-21)

Paul wrote about it continually (Romans 5:25; 8:18-23; Rom 11:32-36; 1 Cor 15:22-28; Eph 1:9-11; Eph 4:10; Col 1:15-20 1 Tim 2:3-7 & 4:10). John wrote about it(John 12:32; 1 John 2;1,2; Rev 5:13 Rev 21:5). Many other verses also become more easily understood and integrated with the rest of scripture once these verses I listed are understood, such as Isaiah 25:6-8

The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,

when that verse is read in the light if 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and 2 Cor 5;1-5 and Eph 1:9,10 it becomes so clear that I believe, from the tone of paul and John's writing, that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it. It was a part of the foundation doctrines they taught (see hebrews 6:1-3), it was the basic fabric of the doctrines of "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb 6:2) and was considered "elementary" "foundational" and "pure milk".

:2c:

[rosered]

Amen... universal belief/following Jesus...

I wonder? did universalism begin grounded in God's Word? but then wandered or fell away from God's word? And into mere thoughts and ideas of human thinking? Or were they never really grounded in God's word to begin with? :dontknow:

The restoration of all things was proclaimed on the first day the gospel went forth(Acts 3:17-21)

Paul wrote about it continually (Romans 5:25; 8:18-23; Rom 11:32-36; 1 Cor 15:22-28; Eph 1:9-11; Eph 4:10; Col 1:15-20 1 Tim 2:3-7 & 4:10). John wrote about it(John 12:32; 1 John 2;1,2; Rev 5:13 Rev 21:5). Many other verses also become more easily understood and integrated with the rest of scripture once these verses I listed are understood, such as Isaiah 25:6-8

The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,

when that verse is read in the light if 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and 2 Cor 5;1-5 and Eph 1:9,10 it becomes so clear that I believe, from the tone of paul and John's writing, that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it. It was a part of the foundation doctrines they taught (see hebrews 6:1-3), it was the basic fabric of the doctrines of "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb 6:2) and was considered "elementary" "foundational" and "pure milk".

:2c:

  This is   great news John      Thank you  :HeartThrob:

He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken.

[Ross]

when that verse is read in the light if 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and 2 Cor 5;1-5 and Eph 1:9,10 it becomes so clear that I believe, from the tone of paul and John's writing, that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it. It was a part of the foundation doctrines they taught (see hebrews 6:1-3), it was the basic fabric of the doctrines of "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb 6:2) and was considered "elementary" "foundational" and "pure milk".

:2c:

" that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it."

Indeed  the clarity of why we are here was taught among the Jews. They were all taught the old testament by rote; there lifestyle fully included the remembrance of scriptures. Peter, although only a fisherman, knew every prophecy and history that had been recorded thus far.
They still know and learn the O.T The Pharisees hid there deception about there incident with Christ from the people.
Zecharaiah speaks how the Jews will wail when there eyes are opened.
I recall being in many tears when Christ was revealed correctly- how much He has actually suffered for us and done for us is incredible.
His actual depth of being able to identify with EVERY THING we go through because He was actually like us made more sense than the teaching of the church which claimed He was like us, yet overlooked things like in Isaiah 53 which describes how He will be detested and  looked down upon by the Jews when He first appears.

I.M.O if we look at this age as being the only part of the plan  before heaven or hell, then this all becomes a vague, pointless exercise.
When the purpose of right from wrong is linked to a system which works in progressive stages of development that involves every single person in the picture, having different roles to play, each learning at their own pace, with ONE teacher instead of many; then the precision to detail, the price actually paid for us all, makes sense for me.
The inhuman God becomes a master Who knows everything works together; each at it's own rate; till ALL are in the kingdom where true equality is through the one point of entry- Christ. He will wipe away EVERY tear.
When things make sense the reasoning releases the guilt, depression, inadequacy, failure and nails them all to the cross.
His love cannot be kept away from us by anything- death, nor life, nor any other thing can keep us from the love of God in Jesus Christ His son.

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

When things make sense the reasoning releases the guilt, depression, inadequacy, failure and nails them all to the cross.
His love cannot be kept away from us by anything- death, nor life, nor any other thing can keep us from the love of God in Jesus Christ His son.

Exactly. That is why I count it a privilege to address the corruption of the gospel in contemporary christianity. Such a disservice to the sheep of His pasture.

I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.(Acts 20:27-30)

At the source of all heresy is an attempt to draw disciples unto the messenger rather than Christ. This is the essence of the wolves in sheeps clothing.

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:13-18

It is so amazing that the response to this message of freely given restoration is treated with contempt and persecution- but it makes sense, because it threatens all the leverage of the power structures of man. In the end it has disarmed every principality and power and torn down every stronghold and fortress exalted against the true knowledge of God. it is for this reason that we speak a wisdom among the mature that the rulers of this age cannot hear or understand- and if they had understood they would never have crucified Christ, since the laying down of His life dissoleved, anulled and ultimately destroyed every adversary standing against Him, and us :o)

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:18-21

Even tho we know that the source of deception is the devil, we must walk as lambs to the slaughter, speaking the truth in love, because it is the love of God, and Christ crucified- displayed through our patience and humility that allows the Holy Spirit to break the bonds that hold those unto whom our gospel is veiled.

But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:23-26

[Ross]

Amen!! :thumbsup:

The gentleness is indeed awesome.
Just thinking of a little illustration;  When I gave my son a bike I was aware there would be mistakes, falls, loss of skin, a little pain here and there, as he was learning to ride. He learnt from those mistakes and now they  are rare, if at all. If I had not given him the bike he would not have learnt. Does that mean I do not love him? I think not. However there is so much to learn in the process.
And that is only a minute part of the whole process.
Bash him to bits to correct him and there would be constant fear and a sense of inadequacy or failing. Correcting him by pointing out what has happened and why, doing that in a gentle manner, made him listen. Still made mistakes, just does not live in fear while learning.

So Again, Amen!

[CST]

Hello, Rosered. This thread has really grown since I lost the post I was meant to send you last week. I imagine somehow God didn't wish for me to send it then. I certainly like and enjoy much of what you say though I am not always sure what I do and don't agree with.

I'm certainly not sure that I'm very good t putting the word of the Bible into practice in fact I think I'm very bad of it. But faith would suggest that if I was in the 'saved now' group I would be good at it and if I'm in the 'saved later' group then there'd be nothing I could do about it.  I find these thoughts confusing especially as they make the faith I mention seem to be a kind of paradox. Only people in the saved now group actually have faith but if I'm not in that group then where's the information about 'what faith tells me come from'?

Do you believe that people really lived 930 literal years in those days. Those sorts of thought create other paradoxes in my head because I believe spiritual death does exist and really occurred in the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree.

I suspect the phrase 'the wages of sin is death' may suggest that each of our sind in fact repeats or reinforces that death. Living in that sate for nearly a millennium doesn't sound pleasant.

The mixing of good and evil is an interesting one as I'm not if it's impossible to do or impossible to avoid or what in one case the best deeds can be undermined completely in the light of one evil one but on the other hand I don't believ anyone who walks the Earth is perfectly either. They can't be surely? Very strange.

"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" it says but I don't think that means atheists can't make the statement believing they are speaking falsely.

The Bible says a lot of things and seems to contain many paradoxes that are both confusing and fascinating.

  Hi CST ,
I am for one glad you question everything ,     you remind of myself , I am constantly questioning    every thought     that comes to mind or shared  by others here at the forum or in the Word of God / Bible .  and I do not know many things  and do become   confused   at times , but  that is when I go silent   and  have nothing to say .     This is when I ask    Jesus to help me understand   what He wants me to know now 
I do not trust folks whom say they have it all figured out  , I do respect my elders though   and when    the Spirit  quickens a Word  in that moment , it makes alive a hope in me that makes me try harder  and not give up , because   sometimes I really do want  to

I do think if you ask   the Lord Jesus, He will help you understand  in ways  you never  considered  possible .
I do believe even faith comes from the Lord , many asked   in the Word   for Him to increase    their faith    ,and I also ask,  many here ask  , you asked or you would not even be here  , I do believe that things are as Given of the Lord we have  nothing of our own  ,

  The seed planted in your heart is the   Word of Faith  and hope and Love  , these 3 things are what we got to work with as the Holy Spirit   teaches us

  How we are born again from above  ,  faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying   and our Hope is in the Spirit of Life   that quickens us  in the Love of God

  We  grow in truth and grace     as in Gods  desire  , not our own desire  , it would be like me ready to ride a mountain  bike  when I am only prepared to ride  a tricycle  in reality  , our expectations of faith are proven by   the testing of it    ,     I do believe   this  with all my heart   , like Peter when   he thought he was full of faith  and would not deny Jesus   when tested and what did he  do  ?  When Jesus told him  He would deny HIM  3 times before the morning come /  rooster crowed     oh no Lord not me !!   but  He did  , I can so relate to Peter  in many of those examples  in the Bible  and when He said he loved Jesus

  Jesus did not give up on Peter  though ....  and He will not on anyone  seeking to please the Father ....

  Jesus told him , Peter  do you love me   3 times ?   It hurt   Peters  feelings   that the Lord doubted him , How could Peter prove  love to Jesus ? by feeding His  lambs / sheep !  wow this is  an  honor to serve the Lord by  feeding his lambs and sheep   spiritual food for thought .  the WORD OF GOD  , eat my body and drink my blood that you might have life in you ...  JESUS CHRIST  IS SALVATION OF GOD and the grace given as a gift to every one .

John 21 ...16He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." 17He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep. 18"Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go."...19 Now this He said,signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He *said to him, "Follow Me!"
   
  For me ,  this   stretching out your hands ,  has a powerful meaning  , that the carnal mind can only question  what that means  ,  It means to me   that Peter would also   follow Jesus    in that same cross of suffering for   obedience unto death     and  this test of faith does glorify God  by overcoming the   world   , this is death to me   ,this is why are to consider our bodies as good as dead  already so the Spirit of Life can rule over it and  not sin .


I do believe the Lord shortened the days of our flesh for the elects  sake[called out of the world  in it but not of it ]  Jesus prayer John 17      , in those days are   still our days The Abomination of Desolation    has always warred against the Holy Spirit   from the beginning    Gen   2  when Adam ate   death reigned  till the law come   though Moses to   expose  sin and it would become utterly sinful   till  ,   Jesus Christ come to  destroy it  and reign in its place    Life for death
   Romans  6 , 7 , 8    hen Paul was showing it was sin in his own members  . body of death  that the law showed him what sin was  , and thanked the Lord Jesus Christ for   delivering Him from that body of death ..

...21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him....

I agree that we can be  spiritually dead but alive in the flesh  as sin  rules    till the law comes and exposes the sinful  beast   within us that is contrary   to God  , this would be the most miserable    of times and totally powerless to  overcome  , but as  Paul said in Romans   8    we can glorify God by the Lord Jesus Christ delivering us from that   state of being     , that is a spiritual war  that  kills    that  vile , prideful  arrogant   spirit within us   ,,   so we can now be joined to Christ 

body of believers , you will believe after that  battle !   I believe Revelation   explains the process    to the T ...or cross    with the opening   the seals
 
That John  was able to declare  to us only because He was in the Spirit on the Lords day  and not in  the flesh    and the Lords day is what every    carnal beast will experience    with that spirit of babylon  ruling  his  heart   , it was because John had the Spirit of prophecy   which is the testimony of Jesus Christ in his heart  and opened   to receive  the things of God though the Spirit 

This may sound  odd to you and I sure hope some things were clear   ,   I have never been able to speak plainly as some do  , But God knows    it is only to help and not stumble anyone .  God bless

It was fairly clear I imagine I found some parts clearer than others but I certainly liked reading it.

I sometimes do pray for understanding of scripture, usually for understanding of particular passages I'm reading at the time. I also believe I've got answers on many things, I think even some things I've don't think I've directly prayed for. This leads me to have unique interpretations of scripture (possibly) but I don't actually know that I haven't just made them up in many cases, although seeing others in agreement can help.

For example one thing I didn't get round to mentioning yesterday when I was trying to respond to your points on Babylon and the mixing of good and evil was the very beginning of the Bible, Genesis one frequently read by many as a literal interpretation of how God created the world even when the science says otherwise.

Some people don't take it literally but some atheists will attack them on this point and claim (falsely) that it was meant to be taken literally and was  exclusively taken literally until it was discovered that that might not be tenable.

So God created the world in seven literal days and Genesis says so and we all should believe that. Did He, does it say that, really? Here's what it says:

'And God said, "Let there be light": and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.' (Gen1:3-5)

Let's read that again, shall we? ' God separated the light from the darkness' What, wait, hang on. How'd He manage that? In all human understanding light and darkness are separated by definition, they are opposites and canot be mixed. When I try to consider what the world was like before light and darkness were separated the best I can imagine is strobing.

That's not humanly possible but, of course, God can do it and it seems He has and the only answer it gives for He might have done so is that 'God called the light Day, and the darkness he called night' and that all we have. Light and darkness are separated by the definitions of Day and Night and an Earth day, in the literal interpretation, is taken to be a 24 hour period comprising some Day and some Night. So what does Genesis say: 'And there was evening and there was morning, one day.'

Where's the night here? As written evening is immediately succeeded by morning with no evident night between them. Now these days this can happen in the world because night also has a very specific definition in science  and sometimes never comes. But this is the book of Genesis and it gives a very specific definition of what Night and Day actually mean and it's not the one people use to literalize the work.

So what's the point here? Well, if God has separated Day and Night, light and darkness so that we cannot mix them, how then shall we think we can really mix good and evil? What's different about them?

I like that you've used the example of Peter, especially fascinating being in all four gospels as I recall, but I'm not sure I see it as you do and I'm not sure I see the elect you do. The example of Peter shows how even people who can seem very loyal to the Lord can be tempted away for a time. No one is immune everyone can be drawn away even the elect although they are protected from many temptations. Cutting short the days of the ends is a means of protecting the from temptation so that they not be lost with the save laters, (such is my understanding) not simply making individual lives shorter because otherwise it's only meaningful for the elect it would seem to me.

[CST]

Maybe I just want to believe this, but I think we all have a divine calling from God.

Does it look divine to us, when it is someone else's calling.....probably, most of the time, it doesn't.

Do we all accept the calling? I would say definitely not. At least, not always here on earth.

I don't believe that God would make us all to love Him, and to be loved by Him, and yet not make us for a godly mission.

I am certainly not sure how this all plays out, but it fits my belief, of who God is. And, hopefully, it is the Spirit, directing me to this vision of humanity.

As a Special Education teacher, I have worked with profoundly and severely handicapped children and adults. Many of them have taught me priceless, divine lessons.

No one is beyond God's ability to call them to carry out His will. Certainly, the O.T. Bible Stories should teach us this.

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

My   :2c:

D.                       :girlheart:

:iagree:

[/quote]

was lead to speak my mind

Maybe I just want to believe this, but I think we all have a divine calling from God.

Yes, I believe that also, we are either called to be a vessel of honor here and now (in the physical realm) or a vessel of dishonor here and now (in the physical realm)..... and who are we to judge another if his calling was a vessel of dishonor? When that person dies and his spirit returns to the Father, would not the Father say "well done good and faithful servant" if his calling was to be a vessel of dishonor in the physical realm? Just look at Judas Iscariot, he was called to betray Jesus, to carry out a part of the Father's plan of the crucifixion of Christ which we know leads to the salvation of all. I myself, will honor Judas in his calling, for he did what he was called to do even though he did not know what he was doing. I will forgive him for he knew not what he did.

Does it look divine to us, when it is someone else's calling.....probably, most of the time, it doesn't.

This is answered with the first explanation in the calling of Judas, it may not look like it was divine calling, but it was

Do we all accept the calling? I would say definitely not. At least, not always here on earth.

We either accept it willingly or unwillingly depending on what the Father has called us to do. (honor or dishonor in this realm)

I don't believe that God would make us all to love Him, and to be loved by Him, and yet not make us for a godly mission.

Again, each persons part is played out by His design, honor or dishonor in this realm ..... either/or it is a godly mission

I am certainly not sure how this all plays out, but it fits my belief, of who God is. And, hopefully, it is the Spirit, directing me to this vision of humanity.

It is His Spirit directing you

As a Special Education teacher, I have worked with profoundly and severely handicapped children and adults. Many of them have taught me priceless, divine lessons.

Have they not fulfilled their calling if they have taught you something priceless? You and I both believe it so

No one is beyond God's ability to call them to carry out His will. Certainly, the O.T. Bible Stories should teach us this.

His will be done

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

Again, is not our perspective to believe ..... "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)
Was not Judas called according to the Father's purpose, he may not have loved God the way we view it, but he did without even knowing it by carrying out the Father's purpose in him.

My   :2c:

and that is also my  :2c:

:iagree: also although I put a great deal of stress on the phrase in this realm. I don't really imagine God is dishonouring anyway at all that's just how we see it.

Maybe Judas missed the final step he was supposed to play out, but didn't.......to ask Jesus for forgiveness. 

Perhaps guilt, prompted by the evil one, or his personal demons, got the better of him.

Again, my  :2c:

D.

Wouldn't that undermine the 'field of blood' prophecy? I don't believe there's any 'supposed' here other than what happened, God's sovereignty cannot be usurped. Even if we can see that, ideally, there are better things such as what you have suggested that he could have done.

Well, of course, if we are Christian Universalists, we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.

I just don't know if that happened on this side, or if it had to wait until Judas got to the other side.

Of course, the sooner the better, seems to me.       :gsmile:

D.

I have to imagine the other side, I think if it had happened on this side he wouldn't have killed himself.

The direction of this thread has reminded me of the idea that the role of each and every person, even despots, that their role will in the end have been perfect.. As with the potential of possible evil being pretty much endless, and our Father, i think is teaching and demonstrating to all that very thing- someone had to play the roles of despots.. I do think their repentence will be more heart wrenching but that too 'has' to be acted out.. in thisHis "suffering all nations to walk their own ways" Acts 16:14 ..it's why I could never believe in an overly harsh afterlife, or rather judgment day for most since it is all God's choosing.. :smile:

:iagree: although I suspect everyone's ideas of overly harsh may be quite variable.

we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.

We have different ideas about how that happens.

I understand that one who has darkened or blacknened their soul-body through what amounts to selfishness in varying degrees, can only take so much Light in a state of disembodiment due to the pain it causes, and should Jesus have appeared to Judas who had gone "to his own place" in His full Divine Presence without masking His Light somewhat, it would have horrified Judas.

Then one needs to consider the pain of treachery that Judas would be carrying around with him now knowing the truth, and even though the loving Saviour pours and pours His cleansing Love upon His fallen children, for Judas, about two thousand years ago, that Love would also have been a painful reminder of his act and the baser desires he would have had in his make-up to allow entry and possession of an wicked spirit, in my opinion.

But that was a long time ago, as we see it, and today I believe that Judas is in the position to know and understand the position and feelings of others who have betrayed their higher selves in the worst manner and is a powerful tool for God's use in aiding others.

Again, just the way I see it, in short.

Despite my former post on this I believe Judas much have felt a degree of the above in his Earthly lifetime or he, also, would not have killed himself.

I suspect that the statement suggesting Jesus showing His full Divine Presence while simultaneously masking some of His Light may present an unworkable contradiction. But I also suspect you may be aware of that.

Yes, EW, I realise how this must be seen this way and appreciate the wider boundaries.

It will all come out in the wash.

And for some the wash cycle must be a long time, in my opinion.

I do not see this as a literal event, as if someone spent their whole life with a completely wicked and debased character and now they are presented with a choice to bend the knee. I rather think this is a short sentence describing a long process over time.

I believe one should be wary as to the categorisation into confined terms of the Holy Spirit and what is and is not possible. I envisage, if you will, the light on the horizon is a little brighter than it was, and when it arrives the Holy Spirit will be looking for selfless instruments who have made the complete surrender in order that the children of God may become mature sons and daughters, so that sleeping slumbering humanity may awaken to the reality of a reckoning, a consequence to its existence. It will be according to God's Will, it will be effective to humanity because humanity will grasp the meaning behind it. Then the Holy Spirit will grow even more in power and in effect and all of humanity will be drawn to the Christ, and will be seen by all bar a few doubters and scoffers.

In general, that's the gist of it for me.

Err, how can the Holy Spirit grow in power? The Holy Spirit is God isn't He? How can God grow in power?

about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile: I believe this happened to Ephesus leader of the gnostic beliefs of matter is the evil, both before conversion and then later, making their first love fade..

So true. Although there really are a surprisingly large number of places it would seem to me illogical to take what the Bible says literally. Just because understanding which is which is hard doesn't mean you should accept it's almost all one of the othr or try to discern which is which. Parables aren't just to hide things from the Pharisees, you know?

[rosered]

Eaglesway said ,

I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.(Acts 20:27-30)

At the source of all heresy is an attempt to draw disciples unto the messenger rather than Christ. This is the essence of the wolves in sheeps clothing.

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:13-18

   Amen ,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these things  brothers  John and Ross , 
I know I am a baby   in the Spirit  because , the Lord has never allowed me to read  other  men's writings , it is as if a veil is placed over them , honestly  , I have tried though  and always  been left with  uncertainty     and doubts .
It is true everyone is  given their portion of the Lord  and what roles they  are purposed in  , No power is given  to anyone unless given from Above .
and   do not judge no one  , because it belongs to God knowing all our hearts and reasons for  doing what we   all do and act on  them . .

From  the beginning we are told    /warned  not  to worship   the sun and the moon and the stars  of heaven  and can be driven to do so , if our faith is tested and   fail the tests  of time   we have seen  from   the beginning the examples in the WORD OF GOD and the cutting off for unbelief  ,  the lack of faith  being tested  in those whom feared  being  an oxymoron .

But are told  to  worship God  in spirit and in truth   ONLY    made clear in the "gospel good news "   by Jesus Christ testimony  and witness .

It goes way beyond  [astrology]    it is   found in   6  of  the 7 churches of  Revelation   the  only  one  showing itself approved is the Philadelphia/ brotherly love  church    .    For me   it is  Paul's  writing that makes me wonder if the race is      these  7  stars [messengers ]  Hills   rulers ,   angels  in the LORD JESUS CHRIST   holding   back  and in and though   His own  right hand of power     that is judging   with" reward   and   removing "   the light , candlestick  , Light  and the other   sufferings and causes   and testing of  faith .

   When I think of those stars of heaven  , messengers   given the Light of Christ anointing in them and they are risen   and shine    giving their light  as to the glory of God  into a dark place  , spoken about  by the Psalms and  other  called out prophets   with that "spirit of prophecy  as the  working of God   in their time and place   , being of  also  apart of the  all,   as included in Gods  master plan 

  Just as the stars of   heaven   in Abraham's seed of faith ,   Matt 22      being the   Living God ...31"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

God promised in this covenant   that  His seed  will be as , the stars of heaven and the sands of the sea shores .   
I have considered    both   types serve Him , but the sands of the sea shores   being the dead seas and rivers of blood   etc  ,  are tiny little   stones with no light in them and are  tossed around by   the  waters and  being many voices   as unstable  as water [ faith is not made  perfect in hope and love  [Jude]

  I have considered Jesus saying and I saw satan fall like lightning   as messengers/angels  of light  and having their "light put out '  the light of  darkness  , how great is that darkness [   believe the lie !? ]  '  or candlestick removed   fall from that grace of God into   the earth and   dead sea  of the masses  because these were destroying the works of  satan as labourers of the Lord of harvest    ...   

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10

I LOVE HOW in Luke 10   the   great Light  commission   sent by the Lord  to  tear down them strongholds  by the 72  sent   whose names are written in Heaven and no   harm would come to them   because they are in the     right hand of power   the Lord Jesus Christ  and nothing can harm them  , not even death .

A third of the stars   swept away by the dragons tail of lies     in Rev  12 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth  . And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.   

5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne....

I see Jesus is the first of  His kind and than those whom would also   come though Him  that   hold to the testimony of Jesus.  which is the Spirit of prophecy , or the   HOLY SPIRIT  AND FIRE   destroying the works of satan  holding  captives  in death  as the  72 are  called to  do  in Luke 10 .... 

     The third of the stars being those  Babylon spirits  of pride    any   scribe Pharisee and hypocrite that   lost their place of authority     and was rebuked by the Lord   Jesus Christ whom  was  holding the light/ truth / knowledge of God   unlawfully    as   the light of darkness     and making them     either  ashamed   , offended   or angry   and put on the spot / mark  , as burning   out  and falling from grace  , falling short .

     Just the thought of being able to  cast out fear and the torment that goes along with the  stinging  tails of the  liars /false  holding death as a  unlawful thing

Brings  great joy in the Lord  knowing He loves us all  and that love will be  spread to the ends of the earth as a witness  against  all evil doing .

[sheila]

my  :2c:   yes savage wolves..all men are sheep..all men are saved and receive free gift of righteousness and He shall take away

all the their sins[see Jesus seperate the people as a sheep from a goat[scapegoat]  yet some men want to throw the sheep into LOF.

casting out demons=Jesus seperating men/sheep from sin[azazel scapegoats=sin is a demon.

we don't cast out the sheep with demons[sin] into the LOF prepared for stan and his demons. Jesus the great shepherd will seperate

them.  I am a goat shepherdess..I am instructed to graze my flock of goats near the shepherd tents where there is highest light

..there Jesus shall seperate them from their sin and they are saved from the wicked one.

the man of sin /man of lawlessness shall be revealed..and sin is a demon.

certain men have raised up/slipped in unawares[man of sin] and encompassed the righteous..therefore sound judgement

does not go forth.

  we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..and we don't throw men in the LOF with the demons that have been possessing them.

  Jesus doesn't like that!

    the goat shepherdess has[SOS 4;2] teeth like a flock of sheep that are 'even shorn" which come up from the washing......

none of them are barren..everyone of them bear twins.

[sheila]

shorn= to remove by cutting or clipping[using a sharp instrument/two edged device] this helps remove the 'wool over their eyes"

so they can see!

[sheila]

term[pull wool over ones eyes- originated from judges wearing these monstrous wigs on their heads[can ye say wolves in sheeps clothing?]

[marie glen]

And for some the wash cycle must be a long time, in my opinion.

I do not see this as a literal event, as if someone spent their whole life with a completely wicked and debased character and now they are presented with a choice to bend the knee. I rather think this is a short sentence describing a long process over time.

I believe one should be wary as to the categorisation into confined terms of the Holy Spirit and what is and is not possible. I envisage, if you will, the light on the horizon is a little brighter than it was, and when it arrives the Holy Spirit will be looking for selfless instruments who have made the complete surrender in order that the children of God may become mature sons and daughters, so that sleeping slumbering humanity may awaken to the reality of a reckoning, a consequence to its existence. It will be according to God's Will, it will be effective to humanity because humanity will grasp the meaning behind it. Then the Holy Spirit will grow even more in power and in effect  and all of humanity will be drawn to the Christ, and will be seen by all bar a few doubters and scoffers.

In general, that's the gist of it for me.

Amen.. and I've been thinking along these lines, too, more and more... i feel like the Lord has kept closed in His scripture (mostly hidden) those days (ages) so briefly mentioned in Revelation chapter 20, but His Spirit opens them.. at the right time.. I've been noticing too in His word how organized He is. In Numbers 10 is the instructions to infant Israel about trumpets.. one trumpet sounding (but not a fanfare) is the calling of the leaders and heads of the tribes.. two trumpet soundings is the call for the whole congregation/nation to assemble at the door to the tent of meeting. I'm thinking as followers of Jesus, now, the elect are being prepared by Him for work and teaching during the millennium (one trumpet sounding).. and during the millennium will be being prepared for ministering (helping) with all those who rise in the 2nd resurrection (two sounds/blows of the trumpet)..? :Chinscratch:

Also in Numbers 10, the people are being instructed (the Lord is telling Moses) ("and Jesus broke the loaves and gave to His disciples/followers, and they gave to the people" ..."you give them food.." "feed my sheep.." "who is that wise servant who when his master comes will find him so doing..")
               was telling Moses how to break camp when they break camp.. the Priests blow the trumpet.. and the tribes at the east pack up.. then another sounding and the tribes at the south pack it up.. etc.. very orderly.. (the tent of meeting, we know, was in the center)
     :gsmile:

[marie glen]

shorn= to remove by cutting or clipping[using a sharp instrument/two edged device] this helps remove the 'wool over their eyes"

so they can see!

:cheerleader: Amen! :thumbsup: I didn't know that.. no wonder lambs are hard of seeing and hearing!

my  :2c:   yes savage wolves..all men are sheep..all men are saved and receive free gift of righteousness and He shall take away

all the their sins[see Jesus seperate the people as a sheep from a goat[scapegoat]  yet some men want to throw the sheep into LOF.

casting out demons=Jesus seperating men/sheep from sin[azazel scapegoats=sin is a demon.

we don't cast out the sheep with demons[sin] into the LOF prepared for stan and his demons. Jesus the great shepherd will seperate

them.  I am a goat shepherdess..I am instructed to graze my flock of goats near the shepherd tents where there is highest light

..there Jesus shall seperate them from their sin and they are saved from the wicked one.

the man of sin /man of lawlessness shall be revealed..and sin is a demon.

certain men have raised up/slipped in unawares[man of sin] and encompassed the righteous..therefore sound judgement

does not go forth.

  we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..and we don't throw men in the LOF with the demons that have been possessing them.

  Jesus doesn't like that!

    the goat shepherdess has[SOS 4;2] teeth like a flock of sheep that are 'even shorn" which come up from the washing......

none of them are barren..everyone of them bear twins.

:goodpost: :goodpost: :banana:

   

[marie glen]

I LOVE HOW in Luke 10   the   great Light  commission   sent by the Lord  to  tear down them strongholds  by the 72  sent   whose names are written in Heaven and no   harm would come to them   because they are in the     right hand of power   the Lord Jesus Christ  and nothing can harm them  , not even death .

A third of the stars   swept away by the dragons tail of lies     in Rev  12 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth  . And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.   

5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne....

I see Jesus is the first of  His kind and than those whom would also   come though Him  that   hold to the testimony of Jesus.  which is the Spirit of prophecy , or the   HOLY SPIRIT  AND FIRE   destroying the works of satan  holding  captives  in death  as the  72 are  called to  do  in Luke 10 .... 

  ...
     Just the thought of being able to  cast out fear and the torment that goes along with the  stinging  tails of the  liars /false  holding death as a  unlawful thing

Brings  great joy in the Lord  knowing He loves us all  and that love will be  spread to the ends of the earth as a witness  against  all evil doing .

Amen! Amen!! :2thumbs: :gsmile: