In the beginning God created man- in His own image. Yet we know that God is a spirit, so we were created after His inward image, the image of His character and His nature. All of the most beautiful expressions of humanity we have ever seen were reflections of God.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
People are without excuse because they caan see, even in themselves, what they ought to be as human beings. The love of a mother for a child. The joy of a young father in his stumbling little boy. A true love between a man and a woman. An act of kindness between strangers......
All of these things are reflections of who God is- His inward character and eternal power- and we were created in His image.
When religious people speak of the power of God they often focus on the power He has to shake the heavens and the earth, but this is certainly the least of His power, and shows little of His character.
It was the kindness of God in Jesus the Messiah, reaching out to a lost and confused world from the cross, showing them how human He is.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation (2 Cor 5)
Jesus was the most human of all who have ever lived. No greater love has a man than to lay down His life for His friends, to cry out after enduring such immense agony, "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing".
And Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father". When He spoke the words, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me", it was because He knew that that one human act would reveal God to the human race in such a way that it will eventually gather every human being into Him, so that God willd become "all in all".
All we who believe in Him are supposed to be the most human of human beings. I know, it is a paradox. To be like God is to be human and to be human is like Christ, and we have been given all this negative press about what it means to be human. We are so"holier than thou" sometimes, and too "spiritual" for our own good.
Like the disciples who would not let the little children through "the ropes" to see Jesus, even though they of all people could see Him most clearly.
And He says we must become like them if we are to enter the kingdom of God, and they are so quintessentially human, and yet so also like God. If we are to be "ambassadors" for Christ, and conitue the work of Messiah, we must become like them and get off our "high horse".
It is not our great religious themes that draw people to God and reveal His nature, it is the freedom, the love, the affection and the laughter of a little child.
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 2 Cor 5
We have this treasure in jars of clay. "What treasure?" The treasure of the divine nature. The inward image of the truest human being, Jesus. When He is shining in our hearts the gospel is good news to all people, a ministry of reconciliation.
When the god of this world blinds people to the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ- it is the word of reconciliation that is veiled to them. They cannot see the love of God in the face of Jesus Christ. They cannot see that the beauty of humanity is that it carries about within it the incredibly diverse expression of the love of God, and that God can only be realized in mankind, among and between the community of humans by the minstry of reconciliation, and the hand of kindness and practical love.
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.Heb 1
Preachers and priests and religionists love to say the words, "In the beginning was the word and the word was God." Then they use their words and lack of humanity to terrorize people into accepting their inhuman God. A god who cares more about buildings and organizations and doctrines than people. A god who loves only those who accept Him. A god who would torture people in hell forever, men women and children, for their ignorance and yes, their stubborness.
But Jesus was the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, and He prayed from the cross, "Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing", this Jesus who said "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" WAS the very word(expressed thought) of God. The Logos. A seed of true humanity sown in the earth to reveal that the inhumanity of men was due to their failure to recognize the love and tenderness of God through all that He has made and given freely to them. A fully realized human being is a precious thing, a thing more glorious than an angel.
But we have it all turned around now. We are almost ashamed of our humanity. I hear all the time people young and old saying we, humans, are the virus that is destroying the earth. But humanity is not a virus. There is a virus in humanity that is destroying all the beauty He created so that in the loss of it they might realize who he is and what He gave them. A virus of decay, delusion and bondage.
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
Romans 8
The glory and freedom of the children of God is what we carry in these clay vessels. Human clay. Weak and in bondage to decay without but full of the joy and kindness of a little child within. it is not our great theological understandings and deep spiritual sayings that will draw people to God, cause them to see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.... it that glorious freedom and that word of reconciliation....
For God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their transgressions against them and He has given to us that ministry of reconciliation.
And while most "so-called" Christians run around casting the whole world into hell forever and imposing the fear of God as a justification for their religious excesses- Jesus said that on the day when men stand before Him, and He looks into their hearts, the questions will be very human ones.
When I was thirsty, where were you. When I was sick, what did you do. When I was naked, did you hide your face from me? When you called me Lord, did you really have any clue to who I am?
"Father forgive them they dont know what they are doing".
Those who preach Christ today are not as far from those who crucified Him as they would like to think, but that is alright, God will get through to them someday. When multitudes of people who never knew His name but walked in simple human kindness stand up in the presence of those who knew His name but did not know Him hear God say, "Come on in, let's rejoice", the ones unto whom He says, "Depart from me, I never knew you" will discover that the fire of God is the light that penetrates into the center of your heart and divides asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow, and makes manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart. When they get to the center, when they get to the innermost part.... they will see God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them, and they will weep and they will bow their knees and they will rejoice in the glory of God streaming from the face of Jesus Christ and they will rise up from their knees and they will rejoice with all creation in the praise of the glory of His grace and they will love one another and embrace- and they will laugh like little children, free at last from that binding inhumanity that weighed them down and the blinding religion that deceived them.
Because God is not inhuman enough to leave people in hell forever. God only wants us to see ourselves as we are, so that He can turn us into little children and bring us into the kingdom of God- a kingdom of light and love and life.
Thats what the lake of fire is for. It where every selfish person will see themselves as they are. The lake of fire and the crystal sea before His throne are one and the same- a mirror, yes, a very intense mirror to the soul of man. A mirror where a human being sees his or her own inhumanity in the light of the precious humanity of the Lord Jesus Christ who died once, for all, not as, in His mind- "A GREAT SPIRITUAL DEED".... because he was a humble servant. He was His Father's child. He was the friend of sinner's, and "No man has any greater love than this, than to lay down His life for His friends".
God desires truth in the innerman and he will teach us truth in our innermost beings and when we have that truth we will be messengers of the word of reconciliation- "Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God".
The stone which the builder have rejected has become the chief cornerstone- but it is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. It is the message that Jesus, the Messiah, did not come to judge the world, but to heal and deliver the world through love and forgiveness in the blood of His cross.
it is written, "The life is in the blood" and the life blood of Jesus was the divine nature of God revealed in the face of Jesus Christ in all His glory of love and forgiveness, willing to lay down His life for His friends even before they knew He was their friend, even when they were His adversaries.
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.Phil 2
Jesus reigns because He loves. He leads because He serves. He saves because he will reach down into the hell of self delusion and draw us out by the revelation of His true humanity and set us free into the glory of our own.
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
1Cor 15
He reigns because he suffered, and if we suffer we will reign with Him in life and love-Now. Today. Forever. Wherever we are as ambassadors of a ministry of reconciliation, bearing precious treasure in earthen vessels- we are to be as he was in the world.... "For God was in Christ reconciling"
And when we have finished our course we will be raised to an inheritance, reserved in heaven for us, a salvation ready to be revealed in the last times as a kingdom of priests, a nation of little children, a laughing singing army of reconcilers laboring through ages to come to gather all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things in earth, for He must reign until every adversary is subjected, reconciled and gathered into one so that God becomes all in all.
With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. Eph 1
These verses in Ephesians, so often quoted, so little understood, reveal the glorious truth of the gospel, God's EUAGGELION, His evangel- the Good News.
Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
A ministry of reconciliation that will continue until God is ALL IN ALL.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.Col 1
All the fulness of God dwelt in Him. All the fulness of God ran down that cross. The Son'a agony was shared by the Father because their love was greater than anything the world could break so the father felt it all and His love ran down because His Son was just like Him. He had His Father's heart, and as that blood ran down to the earth from His head and His hands and His feet and his heart he cried out WHAT WAS IN HIS HEART, "FATHER, FORGIVE THEM.........."
And we have this treasure in earthen vessels, and this treasure will REIGN until every knee bows before the Lordshp of His love and every tongue confesses that is is so in glorious praise.
No, our God is not an inhuman god. He is a good God, who knows how to give good gifts to His children, and disciplines them according to their need, so that they will learn the ways of righteousness, humility and love- so that He can set them over His estates, and share with them the joy of His bounty in times of refreshing from His presence- sitting at the table with His friends all as friends, with wine and song and laughter and seet fellowship, for our God is a human God. His very word is the beauty of creating humanity intoa "dwelling place of God in the Spirit" so that He can walk among them and live among them, "For I will be their God and they will be my people".
Lord, you are my God;
I will exalt you and praise your name,
for in perfect faithfulness
you have done wonderful things,
things planned long ago.....
On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people's disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken. Isaiah 25
It is time Christians knew who they were, what they are called to be, and how great His love is within them.
The Fountain and the Fire
Love is a fire
That will burn all the earth
And love is a fountain
Springing up in new birth
And life is the offspring
Of the fountain and the fire
With light spread through all the gathering
And the darkness burns
And the flames rise high
Into the heavens above
Into the deep below
And the fountain flows
Rivers running to the sea
Till all the dead are living
All their dying is done
When the shed blood of Messiah
Has reconciled every one
Then all will stand in the fire that
purged them
And Praise
the very light Himself
Who sought them,
and set them free-
every soul ever in the world
aflame.
Amen, EW!
A captivating and riveting soliloquy, as always.
Thank you.
'We have this treasure in jars of clay. "What treasure?" The treasure of the divine nature. The inward image of the truest human being, Jesus. When He is shining in our hearts the gospel is good news to all people, a ministry of reconciliation.'
Indeed.
D. :cloud9:
Well said but there are still aspects of God that is very hard to accept that is very well not human. We can be like Jesus but not like God if that makes sense.
Great thoughts EW ! , and am still reading on it ..
Innocence , purity acceptance ,Love :dsunny:
Amen!! :goodpost: :goodpost:
God, our Father has sure been underestimated.. misunderstood.. (and downright blasphemed/insulted, but the Father forgives all, they know not what they do)
I've realized as for UR, it's U & the 3 R's - repentance, redemption, reconciliation.. His deep kindness (heart); 100% love; and mercy triumphing over judgment, results in UR saved/rescued - universal rescue..
It's late.. getting goofy.. :doh:
Many focus on how in the last days there are "scoffers", which to me includes the dislike and disapproval the world has for God.. But they don't realize some of the reason for scoffers and scoffing is the image of God which is portrayed.. It's funny (not haha:) how strongly lodged in the psyche an untrue thing can be.. Especially an untrue teaching or doctrine..
A wonderful passage and summary of God's plan, thank you John! There is much to pause and consider in these gracious words...
James 3 8But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.
9With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men,
who have been made in the likeness of God;
10from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.
My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
Time to Shine Isaiah 60Future Glory for Zion
1"Arise, shine; for your light has come, And the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples;
But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you.
when you arrive and have come to Mount Zion
Hebrews 12 Our Kingdom Cannot Be Shaken
...21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling."
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,...
GOD IS LOVE , Love is what makes complete , entire without lack 1John 4
Love Comes from God
...16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.
God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment
because as He is, so also are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love....
Many here have never known this love of God in the world , they have been disconnected , in a deep sleep and have missed out, for what ever reason Gods has allowed , but when they SEE HIM they will know ..
Some here only have 30 fold some 60 , some 100% and know the Love of God how blessed are they to KNOW JESUS NOW :HeartThrob:
GOD GAVE THE INCREASE ... Matt 13
7"Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
8"And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. 9"He who has ears, let him hear."
I got a 4th R, Rosered, Restoration :dsunny:
:HeartThrob:
Amen Bro John ,,, Jesus Christ come to set the captives free from the spirit of Babylon and the age old curse of Adam ,that all die in .
Father as an authoritarian figure/stern[harsh] unto those whose hearts are hard[I knew you were a stern/harsh man] and as a Father
of tender mercies unto the merciful and loving.
when bearing the image of the corrupt one...the demons believe and tremble. when bearing the image of the incorrupt we
boldly enter into His presence through the veil[no fear of death/as perfect love cast out fear]
the 'sinners' in Zion are afraid....but the redeemed in Zion rejoice!!!!!
under the old law covenant[of death/written against lalwess ones...condemn sin in the flesh] He appears as a harsh stern
Authority figure. but with the Son and the power to become the sons of God...and the kingdom of the love of the Son.....
comes the mindset of Christ and sonship and love and tender affection.
....it is always the serpents mind that slanders the true image and likeness of Our Father........and when we see Christ..face to face..we
shall be just like Him..and have the mind of Christ in the matter.
the name/nature change of Jacob/Israel...comes with wrestling with the angel/messenger in the night...and not letting go-but
enduring until we are blessed. The end of the law..fulfilled in Christ is a blessing...for the law as a tutor has led you to Christ/the Blessing
.....even God your Saviour...and your helper..no longer God your adversary.
I tell you a sacred mystery...we shall ALL NOT DIE....BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED
and it is the nature of the Son that changes us.
Very profound and an interesting combination and interpretation of the readings you chose. Thank you!
'Endure until we are blessed'
I can very much relate to that, in my own life.
:dsunny: :cloud9:
D.
In the beginning was God and God created the world. And the He created children, which He called humans, for Him to love and to love Him. Because God loves His children He desired all His children should love each other and that they should loved the world that He had created for them. Humans are so much the same loving that which they have created and desiring that others should do the same, especially their own children. Human parents often struggle to see why anyone should find anything objectionable about their children. So far so uncomplicated.
But God is a creative being and so creates many different children and different types of children. And God knows that when you create many diverse and different these there is also created a very risk of conflict. So as a result conflict is indeed produced and many human children come to hate each other and humans hate like nothing else.
And while they all think that everything they love should be preserved from all harm they also tend to think that everything they hate should be destroyed and removed from the world so they don't have to put up with all these things they've decided are offensive. And they've decided that God should hate them all too, because there could be no reason any decent person could think of keeping these things.
So now God, who is impartial, has no got a world full of humans all of whom He loves and enjoys trying to drag Him into their conflicts and He finds Himself, owing to the moral purpose, taking sides between His children which He really doesn't want to ideally because although He loves both children the child He chooses against will end up feeling they are loved less than the other child even if it's not true.
And other people can than jump on this to present God as taking sides in bigger ways and try to present God as always taking their side (which is the right side) against the side of all the things they don't like (who they always associate with the wicked) who He will destroy forever in this think called Hell. And they can happy in their selfish eternity, free of all the things that they've decided they don't like.
So Eternal Torment is once again shown to be the judgement of very inhuman humans, not a very human God.
QuoteSo now God, who is impartial, has no got a world full of humans all of whom He loves and enjoys trying to drag Him into their conflicts and He finds Himself, owing to the moral purpose, taking sides between His children which He really doesn't want to ideally because although He loves both children the child He chooses against will end up feeling they are loved less than the other child even if it's not true.
But thankfully, God is not impartial :o)
In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will,
according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined
according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will. Eph 1:9-11
His plan, working out through the ages, was always to redeem all.
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:20
He works all things according to the counsel of His will.
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
And His plan is glorious, coming full circle around all He has created.
For God has consigned all to disobedience,
that he may have mercy on all.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
"For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"
"Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. Rom 11;32-36
Having created man in His image, then bestowing upon humanity God in human form, to elevate humanity above the angels as children of God. :o)
Have I used the word 'impartial' wrongly? I thought lines like "God is not a respecter of persons." And instructions to use to use fair measure and not be biased in our judgments are instructions that tend towards impartiality and fairness, yes?
Saying: For God had consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on some of them, which is what the eternal torment and annihilation groups appear to read it as saying, that would be partial wouldn't it?
I'm really confused now. Though I concede I find it hard to imagine God being impartial in an absolute sense, of course, I struggle to see how if He was completely impartial He could make any decisions at all. So I used to think He was partial to justice though now I think that may just have been the legalist in me.
Hi CST ,
I do believe the greatest error [sin] sin is erroring from the truth all the carnally minded has made over the ages , when it comes to religion and the beliefs and those works of men's hands systems , they fail to see a very simple and perfect truth .
and that is the carnal mind always presumes death and torment in the end , but the scriptures prove Christ is the end and God will be all in All
the last enemy is death and that is what all of Adam are trapped in all the while they are flesh and blood , But you see they are all given different names here in the world , mine is Rose , but I am still a part of Adam and also made new in Christ , so if my end and all in Adam are made new in Christ wont GOD our heavenly Father end up being all in All ?
It is God whom has done all this work though Jesus Christ and not of ourselves , we have helped make it "complicated " with conditions and self worth and values and , it all boils down to experiencing evil in this life , some KNOW the depths of satan , where others have not had them experiences , but all have had their nose rubbed in death and sin and evil all while being here and Gods word calls it corruption and destruction loss , etc .
What if when we die in the literal sense of the meaning we find out how bound all of mankind has been and how free we are in the Spirit and truth , and how learning down here how much more there is to it than what we ever imagine in our hearts , all will be so humbled greatly and realize our lack .
And know just how deep Love and knowledge of God is a true awakening , We are never given the full spiritual experience here , some if any are only given a going in and out of the Spirit and when in the Spirit things of God are revealed , Just as John was in the Spirit on the Lords day and was able to give us Light and knowledge of Gods plan and writ it down for our benefit , but the carnal minded have made a mess of it by interpretation the mixing of the work of mans powers[hands idols ] and Gods powers in it [Spirit ] and they are separated by the WORD OF GOD that will judge us all as the man of sin is being revealed in Judgment , some before hand [ here and now ] and some come after ..
Thank you, Rosered. I just hope it's a simple as your post suggest (if I've understood correctly). The commandment to love each other sounds pretty simple for a clue to what the next age must be like. But God's made everything and they still seems to be a lot the will not get into Heaven or be in Heaven. I like the idea of being 'free in spirit' but I suspect there's still a rather bad piece of carnal minded think in the reading. I tend to see the word 'free' as 'free to do' and that's a problem because not actually sure what Ill be free to do though there's a fair few things I sure I won't be free to do and expect I won't want to. The snag is that all those things are things I don't want to do now if I can help it and that seems very carnal minded, hence my original post in this thread which, I admit, was probably not as clear as when I first conceived it.
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 07:03:04 PM
Thank you, Rosered. I just hope it's a simple as your post suggest (if I've understood correctly). The commandment to love each other sounds pretty simple for a clue to what the next age must be like. But God's made everything and they still seems to be a lot the will not get into Heaven or be in Heaven. I like the idea of being 'free in spirit' but I suspect there's still a rather bad piece of carnal minded think in the reading. I tend to see the word 'free' as 'free to do' and that's a problem because not actually sure what Ill be free to do though there's a fair few things I sure I won't be free to do and expect I won't want to. The snag is that all those things are things I don't want to do now if I can help it and that seems very carnal minded, hence my original post in this thread which, I admit, was probably not as clear as when I first conceived it.
Hi there CST ,
For me it is mankind trying to figure out God , and that is not possible .. and it goes into many things , but keeping it simple as a child can understand it , is what helps the most , cause if Rose starts adding to the word of God or taking away , than here comes trouble , this is why the Lord said let your yes , be yes and no be no , anything more evil is present and ready to bind us up again and cast us into prison for judgment .
Jesus did some amazing ''miracles same as signs '' and said tell no man , man would hinder the Spirit
always a 3 part thing for some reason ,
Here is what helped me the very most , If you can see God made Adam in the beginning in His own image [ Gen1 ] that is Spirit and in Gen 2 as a soul[ nephesh a creature of the earth [subject to vanity and emptiness futility in other words fruitless and subject to corruption bondage to sin and error ] dust of the ground with a breath in Him and the 3rd part and best part the BODY of Christ ...
we are in the body of Adam death realm and also in the Body of Christ LIVING realm , that is the heavenly place , we go in and out , remember Jesus telling his chosen few , pray , pray pray to not fall into temptation , for the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak [This to me is one big reason why Jesus CHRIST IS THE LORD master / teacher ruler of the dead and the living and contains ALL THINGS till GOD BE ALL IN ALL ,,, Jesus christ is RECONCILING all things to the FATHER and no man knows !! you look at the world and see Chaos and it looks like the opposite ,,, but the Spirit knows all things are working together for the good of those , love Him and whom are called according to His own purpose .. We get to partake of the Spirit in a small way here and now and become apart of the BIG PICTURE .
Why would Jesus call this
a fall or enterance into a place of temptation? , that to me is the lower state of being carnal minded from a higher state of being Spiritual minded ..
Pray we do not enter or fall , stumble trip up , into temptation is the sleeping in Adam Matt 26 Jesus Prays at Gethsemane
...40And He came to the disciples an
d found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me
for one hour?
41"Keep watching and praying that you may not
enter/ fall into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."...
now I do believe that in Adam all die or consider it a sleep in sorrow , this is because God shortened the days of our weakened flesh , from 930 years of being subjected to evil and all the vile things in mans hearts coming forth being ruled by SIN / ERROR / MISSING THE MARK ..
To me the mark is the seal of God and redemption though GODS grace and mercy on us , the covenant of promises made throughout the WORD OF GOD ..
Prayer is key to keeping the hearts door open to receive the things of the Holy Spirit , and the time to close the hearts door and wait on the Lord to do His thing because He is with you , as the overflowing scourge passes over us , Just as the lambs blood was on the door post in the days of Israel we too experience the same chastening of obedience or disobedience , or we too will be swept away by the flood of lies
Babylon is what we are to avoid , and that is the mixing of good and evil and all becomes spoiled and useless , because corruption has entered in a little leaven can cause a rising , in the good and also in the evil and this is the discerning the spirits if they be of God or not ..
Because it is a spiritual warfare we are battling with on a daily basis and if GOD be fore you who can be against you ?
There is as much or as little you can experience all depending on what the Lord has called and chosen you to experience in this time on earth , but I believe it is only the beginning of making all things new within us
You / none would not even believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God without the HOLY SPIRIT giving it to us as a free gift and if you use the gift for good and GOD in HIS MERCY will give the increase according to His desire .
I have those carnal moments and am tempted to fall from GODS GRACE but always asking Jesus for help and tell Him constantly LORD YOU know me better than I know myself , Just like Peter was in error and was called satan / adversary to GODS WILL / desire , I too miss the mark and error and pay for it with , not getting to stay in the Spirit of peace and joy in the Lord , but God sure knows we want to be with Him.. and please HIM and love Him like he loves us
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 01:27:05 PM
Have I used the word 'impartial' wrongly? I thought lines like "God is not a respecter of persons." And instructions to use to use fair measure and not be biased in our judgments are instructions that tend towards impartiality and fairness, yes?
Saying: For God had consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on some of them, which is what the eternal torment and annihilation groups appear to read it as saying, that would be partial wouldn't it?
I'm really confused now. Though I concede I find it hard to imagine God being impartial in an absolute sense, of course, I struggle to see how if He was completely impartial He could make any decisions at all. So I used to think He was partial to justice though now I think that may just have been the legalist in me.
If God is completely impartial, how does He choose Jeremiah before he was born and call him from his mother's womb.
I agree God is no respecter of persons. But neither is He so impartial that He has cast us adrift in a purely free will paradigm to choose to reject Him eternally, or to suffer eternal torment for rejecting Him in this life. He is partial to His kind intention which he purposed in Himself, to gather all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things in earth. He has imposed limits upon man's will, because he is a merciful Father.
Organized religion has no answers for verses like James 1... "He brought us forth by the word of truth to be a sort of first-fruits of His creation", or Romans 8
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
or Ro 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things"
or 1 Cor 15:22-28 "For as in Adam all men died so also in Christ shall all men be made alive".... "that God may be all in all"
Whatever they read that does not fit into their systematic theology- they simply ignore or gloss over.
Eph 1 In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth
He has predestined the salvation of all, and created all things with the original purpose, already in mind and completed in the Logos- a process working out through the ages of gathering all things into one in Christ,, by the cross of Jesus Christ.
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"
"Behold I am making all things new"
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 01:27:05 PM
I find it hard to imagine God being impartial in an absolute sense, of course, I struggle to see how if He was completely impartial He could make any decisions at all.
Yes, I personally believe the "God is no respecter of persons" is often misused/misapplied. I see that as in context, Peter realized the Gentiles were also included in the Good News, not just Jews [exclusively] favored. For me an accurate application is also that each will be saved - however, and this is where the "no respecter" can be misused - it's still each in his own order.
So in some respects, as things "play out", I believe God (for whatever reason) does choose/favor/pick certain people or groups to serve different purposes (honor/dishonor/"hardened hearts", turned from Israel for a season, etc.). So day-to-day it may appear some are favored and some are cursed/chosen to struggle. However, when it's all said and done, there will be no one left out, i.e., "no respecter of persons". :2c:
I believe that's where I/we need to trust God in His sovereignty.
For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons
whereas
when He chooses one BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons
Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour
No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 03:08:43 AM
For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons
whereas
when He chooses one BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons
Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour
No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another
yes,,, :iagree:
Quote from: darryl on March 05, 2016, 04:25:40 AM
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 03:08:43 AM
For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons
whereas
when He chooses one BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons
Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour
No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another
yes,,, :iagree:
:iagree:
Eaglesway,
Since this thread was re-ignited so to speak, I reread the original post. As always, it was amazing and spoke to me. I think I remember you saying you were a former preacher--if you started a new church I would attend! Too bad we are scattered all over the world, but at least we have the fellowship here.
I wonder if you'd be interested in blogging, to have all of your writings on one page accessible to others, or maybe even recording these "sermons" for YouTube. You have a gift for putting this all into focus that I know I am not quite able to do. The combination of scripture and your commentary makes everything crystal clear, you are really blessed with a gift.
:dsunny:
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 05, 2016, 01:56:53 PM
Quote from: darryl on March 05, 2016, 04:25:40 AM
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 03:08:43 AM
For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons
whereas
when He chooses one BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons
Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour
No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another
yes,,, :iagree:
:iagree:
The fleshly nature turns the journey into a COMPETITION (a winner and a loser)
Whereas
His Spirit nature turns the journey into a CELEBRATION (all win)
Quote from: rosered on March 04, 2016, 09:19:55 PM
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 07:03:04 PM
Thank you, Rosered. I just hope it's a simple as your post suggest (if I've understood correctly). The commandment to love each other sounds pretty simple for a clue to what the next age must be like. But God's made everything and they still seems to be a lot the will not get into Heaven or be in Heaven. I like the idea of being 'free in spirit' but I suspect there's still a rather bad piece of carnal minded think in the reading. I tend to see the word 'free' as 'free to do' and that's a problem because not actually sure what Ill be free to do though there's a fair few things I sure I won't be free to do and expect I won't want to. The snag is that all those things are things I don't want to do now if I can help it and that seems very carnal minded, hence my original post in this thread which, I admit, was probably not as clear as when I first conceived it.
Hi there CST ,
For me it is mankind trying to figure out God , and that is not possible .. and it goes into many things , but keeping it simple as a child can understand it , is what helps the most , cause if Rose starts adding to the word of God or taking away , than here comes trouble , this is why the Lord said let your yes , be yes and no be no , anything more evil is present and ready to bind us up again and cast us into prison for judgment .
Jesus did some amazing "miracles same as signs " and said tell no man , man would hinder the Spirit
always a 3 part thing for some reason ,
Here is what helped me the very most , If you can see God made Adam in the beginning in His own image [ Gen1 ] that is Spirit and in Gen 2 as a soul[ nephesh a creature of the earth [subject to vanity and emptiness futility in other words fruitless and subject to corruption bondage to sin and error ] dust of the ground with a breath in Him and the 3rd part and best part the BODY of Christ ...
we are in the body of Adam death realm and also in the Body of Christ LIVING realm , that is the heavenly place , we go in and out , remember Jesus telling his chosen few , pray , pray pray to not fall into temptation , for the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak [This to me is one big reason why Jesus CHRIST IS THE LORD master / teacher ruler of the dead and the living and contains ALL THINGS till GOD BE ALL IN ALL ,,, Jesus christ is RECONCILING all things to the FATHER and no man knows !! you look at the world and see Chaos and it looks like the opposite ,,, but the Spirit knows all things are working together for the good of those , love Him and whom are called according to His own purpose .. We get to partake of the Spirit in a small way here and now and become apart of the BIG PICTURE .
Why would Jesus call this a fall or enterance into a place of temptation? , that to me is the lower state of being carnal minded from a higher state of being Spiritual minded ..
Pray we do not enter or fall , stumble trip up , into temptation is the sleeping in Adam Matt 26 Jesus Prays at Gethsemane
...40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?
41"Keep watching and praying that you may not enter/ fall into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."...
now I do believe that in Adam all die or consider it a sleep in sorrow , this is because God shortened the days of our weakened flesh , from 930 years of being subjected to evil and all the vile things in mans hearts coming forth being ruled by SIN / ERROR / MISSING THE MARK ..
To me the mark is the seal of God and redemption though GODS grace and mercy on us , the covenant of promises made throughout the WORD OF GOD ..
Prayer is key to keeping the hearts door open to receive the things of the Holy Spirit , and the time to close the hearts door and wait on the Lord to do His thing because He is with you , as the overflowing scourge passes over us , Just as the lambs blood was on the door post in the days of Israel we too experience the same chastening of obedience or disobedience , or we too will be swept away by the flood of lies
Babylon is what we are to avoid , and that is the mixing of good and evil and all becomes spoiled and useless , because corruption has entered in a little leaven can cause a rising , in the good and also in the evil and this is the discerning the spirits if they be of God or not ..
Because it is a spiritual warfare we are battling with on a daily basis and if GOD be fore you who can be against you ?
There is as much or as little you can experience all depending on what the Lord has called and chosen you to experience in this time on earth , but I believe it is only the beginning of making all things new within us
You / none would not even believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God without the HOLY SPIRIT giving it to us as a free gift and if you use the gift for good and GOD in HIS MERCY will give the increase according to His desire .
I have those carnal moments and am tempted to fall from GODS GRACE but always asking Jesus for help and tell Him constantly LORD YOU know me better than I know myself , Just like Peter was in error and was called satan / adversary to GODS WILL / desire , I too miss the mark and error and pay for it with , not getting to stay in the Spirit of peace and joy in the Lord , but God sure knows we want to be with Him.. and please HIM and love Him like he loves us
Bother, I've somehow managed to lose everything I was replying to you. I'll try to remember to try again later.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 05, 2016, 12:08:18 AM
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 01:27:05 PM
Have I used the word 'impartial' wrongly? I thought lines like "God is not a respecter of persons." And instructions to use to use fair measure and not be biased in our judgments are instructions that tend towards impartiality and fairness, yes?
Saying: For God had consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on some of them, which is what the eternal torment and annihilation groups appear to read it as saying, that would be partial wouldn't it?
I'm really confused now. Though I concede I find it hard to imagine God being impartial in an absolute sense, of course, I struggle to see how if He was completely impartial He could make any decisions at all. So I used to think He was partial to justice though now I think that may just have been the legalist in me.
If God is completely impartial, how does He choose Jeremiah before he was born and call him from his mother's womb.
I agree God is no respecter of persons. But neither is He so impartial that He has cast us adrift in a purely free will paradigm to choose to reject Him eternally, or to suffer eternal torment for rejecting Him in this life. He is partial to His kind intention which he purposed in Himself, to gather all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things in earth. He has imposed limits upon man's will, because he is a merciful Father.
Organized religion has no answers for verses like James 1... "He brought us forth by the word of truth to be a sort of first-fruits of His creation", or Romans 8
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
or Ro 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things"
or 1 Cor 15:22-28 "For as in Adam all men died so also in Christ shall all men be made alive".... "that God may be all in all"
Whatever they read that does not fit into their systematic theology- they simply ignore or gloss over.
Eph 1 In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth
He has predestined the salvation of all, and created all things with the original purpose, already in mind and completed in the Logos- a process working out through the ages of gathering all things into one in Christ,, by the cross of Jesus Christ.
"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"
"Behold I am making all things new"
I'm pretty sure that statement about the role Jeremiah has been chosen or, I think more accurately, made for. To me God would only be partial if while choosing Jeremiah there were other people God had made and just allowed them to blunder around aimlessly with no hope for anything. Like they were conceived out of wedlock so God wants nothing to do with them in this lifetime that sort of thing. If there were people that had no role in God's created order then God would be partial but I don't think that's true although it can sometimes be hard not to get feeling that it's true.
I certainly didn't intend to suggest God's impartiality is equal to indifference although I suppose I understand how you can think I might mean that. I'm just using it identically, or roughly, to favoritism. Which God definitely doesn't have.
I agree with what you are saying at the end of that paragraph, unless that means I'm unwilling taing on board hing i don't agree with because I don't see all the implications, but don't see how the quotes you gave show God not to be impartial in the way I'm trying to use the term.
Quote from: jabcat on March 05, 2016, 01:03:30 AM
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 01:27:05 PM
I find it hard to imagine God being impartial in an absolute sense, of course, I struggle to see how if He was completely impartial He could make any decisions at all.
Yes, I personally believe the "God is no respecter of persons" is often misused/misapplied. I see that as in context, Peter realized the Gentiles were also included in the Good News, not just Jews [exclusively] favored. For me an accurate application is also that each will be saved - however, and this is where the "no respecter" can be misused - it's still each in his own order.
So in some respects, as things "play out", I believe God (for whatever reason) does choose/favor/pick certain people or groups to serve different purposes (honor/dishonor/"hardened hearts", turned from Israel for a season, etc.). So day-to-day it may appear some are favored and some are cursed/chosen to struggle. However, when it's all said and done, there will be no one left out, i.e., "no respecter of persons". :2c:
I believe that's where I/we need to trust God in His sovereignty.
Yes, because He made everything exactly as it is for His intended original purposes. He choose Jeremiah to deliver His message through Jeremiah to Israel because he was ideally placed in Israel. It would be pointless to choose someone from some other time or place it would cause all sorts of problems we can't conceive.
He Jeremiah for this purpose because He had made Jeremiah for this purpose.
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 03:08:43 AM
For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons
whereas
when He chooses one BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons
Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour
No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another
But apparently some didn't work the vineyards at all it seems.
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 05, 2016, 01:56:53 PM
Quote from: darryl on March 05, 2016, 04:25:40 AM
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 03:08:43 AM
For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons
whereas
when He chooses one BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons
Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour
No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another
yes,,, :iagree:
:iagree:
The fleshly nature turns the journey into a COMPETITION (a winner and a loser)
Whereas
His Spirit nature turns the journey into a CELEBRATION (all win)
Hooray!
Quote from: CST on March 05, 2016, 06:10:46 PM
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 03:08:43 AM
For me it is as simple as:
God does not choose one OVER another which shows respecter of persons
whereas
when He chooses one BEFORE another He is not a respecter of persons
Like the parable of the vineyard, they received the same amount whether they were chosen in the first hour, third hour, sixth hour. ninth hour or the eleventh hour
No one was chosen "over" another, just chosen "before" another
But apparently some didn't work the vineyards at all it seems.
Yes we can assume that some did not work the vineyards and I believe some didn't (or don't) ..... but ..... to assume that those who did not work will not benefit from the fruits of the labors of another ..... is to nullify His Work (and His work in us)..... "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) .....
Our work (our calling) is TO UNDERSTAND what we have been "freely given" through the work of Christ so that others benefit from that same understanding, we bring hope to the lost (those who do not understand).
Just because they are not called to work does not nullify their benefit of the fruits
and this I believe you know already
my :2c:
I am yes, but I felt like mentioning because I'm not sure what to do with the parable at that point it seems to have very limited scope after that and only refers to the "saved nows" and doesn't refer at all to the "saved laters" which it seems to give no information of.
Maybe I just want to believe this, but I think we all have a divine calling from God.
Does it look divine to us, when it is someone else's calling.....probably, most of the time, it doesn't.
Do we all accept the calling? I would say definitely not. At least, not always here on earth.
I don't believe that God would make us all to love Him, and to be loved by Him, and yet not make us for a godly mission.
I am certainly not sure how this all plays out, but it fits my belief, of who God is. And, hopefully, it is the Spirit, directing me to this vision of humanity.
As a Special Education teacher, I have worked with profoundly and severely handicapped children and adults. Many of them have taught me priceless, divine lessons.
No one is beyond God's ability to call them to carry out His will. Certainly, the O.T. Bible Stories should teach us this.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
My :2c:
D. :girlheart:
was lead to speak my mind
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
Maybe I just want to believe this, but I think we all have a divine calling from God.
Yes, I believe that also, we are either called to be a vessel of honor here and now (in the physical realm) or a vessel of dishonor here and now (in the physical realm)..... and who are we to judge another if his calling was a vessel of dishonor? When that person dies and his spirit returns to the Father, would not the Father say "well done good and faithful servant" if his calling was to be a vessel of dishonor in the physical realm? Just look at Judas Iscariot, he was called to betray Jesus, to carry out a part of the Father's plan of the crucifixion of Christ which we know leads to the salvation of all. I myself, will honor Judas in his calling, for he did what he was called to do even though he did not know what he was doing. I will forgive him for he knew not what he did.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
Does it look divine to us, when it is someone else's calling.....probably, most of the time, it doesn't.
This is answered with the first explanation in the calling of Judas, it may not look like it was divine calling, but it was
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
Do we all accept the calling? I would say definitely not. At least, not always here on earth.
We either accept it willingly or unwillingly depending on what the Father has called us to do. (honor or dishonor in this realm)
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
I don't believe that God would make us all to love Him, and to be loved by Him, and yet not make us for a godly mission.
Again, each persons part is played out by His design, honor or dishonor in this realm ..... either/or it is a godly mission
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
I am certainly not sure how this all plays out, but it fits my belief, of who God is. And, hopefully, it is the Spirit, directing me to this vision of humanity.
It is His Spirit directing you
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
As a Special Education teacher, I have worked with profoundly and severely handicapped children and adults. Many of them have taught me priceless, divine lessons.
Have they not fulfilled their calling if they have taught you something priceless? You and I both believe it so
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
No one is beyond God's ability to call them to carry out His will. Certainly, the O.T. Bible Stories should teach us this.
His will be done
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
Again, is not our perspective to believe ..... "And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)
Was not Judas called according to the Father's purpose, he may not have loved God the way we view it, but he did without even knowing it by carrying out the Father's purpose in him.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
My :2c:
and that is also my :2c:
Judas is an interesting case. The "mystery of iniquity" is, imo, the place where the truth of choice and accountability and predestination meet and overlap.
Maybe Judas missed the final step he was supposed to play out, but didn't.......to ask Jesus for forgiveness.
Perhaps guilt, prompted by the evil one, or his personal demons, got the better of him.
Again, my :2c:
D.
Personally, I believe that Jesus died in the flesh on the Cross and was raised in the spirit in which He 'descended' and preached to spirits in prison that they might live according to God in the Spirit – and while He was on this mission, just like the loving Saviour, He also visited Judas and showed him His overwhelming love.
But that's just my belief.
Well, of course, if we are Christian Universalists, we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.
I just don't know if that happened on this side, or if it had to wait until Judas got to the other side.
Of course, the sooner the better, seems to me. :gsmile:
D.
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 05, 2016, 05:44:42 PM
Eaglesway,
Too bad we are scattered all over the world, but at least we have the fellowship here.
:dsunny:
that's the sad bit..the 'hellists' are well organized, have tons of churches..where do the URs go to fellowship?..seems to be hardly any true UR churches around.Coming here is good but it's not the same as face to face fellowship :dunno2:
The direction of this thread has reminded me of the idea that the role of each and every person, even despots, that their role will in the end have been perfect.. As with the potential of possible evil being pretty much endless, and our Father, i think is teaching and demonstrating to all that very thing- someone had to play the roles of despots.. I do think their repentence will be more heart wrenching but that too 'has' to be acted out.. in thisHis "suffering all nations to walk their own ways" Acts 16:14 ..it's why I could never believe in an overly harsh afterlife, or rather judgment day for most since it is all God's choosing.. :smile:
Quote from: darryl on March 06, 2016, 12:43:28 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on March 05, 2016, 05:44:42 PM
Eaglesway,
Too bad we are scattered all over the world, but at least we have the fellowship here.
:dsunny:
that's the sad bit..the 'hellists' are well organized, have tons of churches..where do the URs go to fellowship?..seems to be hardly any true UR churches around.Coming here is good but it's not the same as face to face fellowship :dunno2:
which leads to the question, 'Where have all the Christian Universalists gone ?'. Here's a great article which perhaps gives an answer.(I do not mean to change the topic or direction of this thread, should probably start a new thread on this but just adding this article as a side note, forgive me ).I have boldened the words that I feel are extra important.
Where Have All the Universalists Gone?
Ken R. VincentBy Ken R. VincentOne of the great religious mysteries is how the Universalist Church in America — once the 6th largest denomination in the United States — could shrink to its current minority status within the Unitarian Universalist (UU) denomination. In a recent article in the Review of Religious Research entitled, "Some UU's are more U than U," James Casebolt and Tiffany Niekro note that only 19% of UU's identify themselves as Universalist. Since UU's comprise only one-tenth of 1% of Americans, calculating "19% of one-tenth of 1%" may seem like embarrassingly inconsequential number. To make matters worse, some UU's have co-opted the word "Universalist" but invented new meanings that rob the term of its impressive history.
But do not despair! I'm here to tell you that Universalism thrives — not as a separate denomination, but as a critically important way of understanding God that is more relevant than ever for today's complex, pluralistic world.
Let's review some Universalist basics. Universalism asserts that God is too good to condemn humankind to Eternal Hell and that, sooner or later, ALL humanity will be saved. Hell is for rehabilitation/purification and not eternal. This theological position is supported by numerous verses found in both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. While a belief in Universal Salvation can be found in virtually all the world's major religions, Universalism in the West for the last 2,000 years has been understood to mean Universalist Christianity. Our earliest written account advocating Christian Universalism is by Clement of Alexander in the 2nd century, but his pupil Origen was Universalism's most influential theorist. In the 6th century, Universalism was dealt a blow when Origen's work was condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, although it remained viable in the Church of the East (Nestorians and Jacobites). In the West, Universalist theology was relegated to the realm of Mystics until the Reformation when it was "resurrected."
When the Unitarians and Universalists "married" in 1961... Universalist theology schools were closed, including the flagship theology school at Tufts University.The decline of the Universalist church as an independent denomination is most often attributed to the success of its doctrine of God's love for ALL! When other denominations began to acknowledge the power of this hopeful and inclusive message, they were motivated to moderate their emphasis on Hell-fire, brimstone, and predestination! Consequently, parishioners who embraced the Universalist view could remain in their traditional congregations rather than relocate in a Universalist church. Patrick Murfin adds that rural Universalist churches were hurt by migration to the cities and that tiny Universalist churches in the American West were devastated by the Depression. When the Unitarians and Universalists "married" in 1961 (Universalists had the larger "dowry" but fewer members), Universalist theology schools were closed, including the flagship theology school at Tufts University.In my pursuit to better understand the place of Universalists and their church in American history, I was fortunate to discover copies of the weekly Universalist magazine The Universalist Leader/The Christian Leader (the name changed) at the Rice University Library in Houston where I live. This urbane Boston-based weekly published articles on theology, history, biography, current events, and church groups. Besides Universalists, the magazine had occasional contributors who were Unitarians, Congregationalists, and liberal Jews.
Reading through the available issues of the Leader from 1922 to 1942, I was pleased to find that Universalists during this 20-year period were Liberal Christians in every sense of the word! Articles advocating women's rights, minority rights, and birth control were common. Missionary work to China, Japan, black churches in the rural South, and remote states like Texas was also reported. Much attention was given to the building of the Universalist National Memorial Church, which was to be Universalism's "cathedral" in the nation's capitol. While rural Universalists had often been advocates of prohibition, I found only an occasional article lamenting its failure. A few entries did confirm the presence of Bible literalists in the denomination, particularly in the South and Texas.
One of the most fascinating topics for me was the reaction of these Universalists to the theological bomb that altered Unitarianism forever — the Humanist Manifesto — published by a group of Unitarian ministers in 1933. (One wonders if the great American Transcendentalist Mystic Ralph Waldo Emerson could have predicted this when he called his Unitarian church "an icehouse" and lamented the "corpse cold Unitarianism of Harvard College and Brattle Street.") Most Universalists reacted to this with shock, did not know what to make of it, and questioned how to respond to it. However, the Leader printed opinions both "pro" and "con" on the subject; many writers assumed that the type of Humanism that the Unitarians were advocating was the kind of Renaissance Humanism of virtually all Progressives. While articles by Unitarians consistently reflected their ongoing, major soul-searching, obsessive rumination, navel-gazing, and continuing identity crisis, I was inspired by the ever-optimistic Universalists who went blissfully on with their Liberal Christianity. Although acutely aware of the evil of Hitler early in his rise, and showing skepticism for Communism, the Leader consistently reflected an optimism that problems could be solved, and the world could be a better place! Especially significant was the Universalists' openness to world religions (which had come to the forefront of Universalism during the Parliament of World Religions at the end of the 19th Century).
Our Universalist forbears who published Leader would not have been surprised at the merger of the Universalists with the Unitarians in 1961. The issues I read reported often on proposals that had been discussed for years about joining not only the Unitarians but also the Congregationalists to form a "super" Liberal Christian denomination! I do think they would be shocked that the denomination today is no longer exclusively Universalist (ALL are saved) with today's membership spanning views from annihilation to reincarnation. Similarly, UU's are not necessarily exclusively Unitarian (i.e., advocating One God in opposition to the Trinity), with members advocating beliefs from atheism to polytheism. Finally, I think our Universalist ancestors would find it puzzling that Unitarian Christianity and Universalist Christianity are only minority positions within what has become an interfaith church.So — where have all the Universalists gone? In the 21st Century, Universalists are everywhere! Believers in Universalism can be found in virtually all Christian denominations, as well as other world religions. Being Universalist involves a change of heart rather than a change in denomination! Universalism is part of the theology of the Church of Christ Scientist and the Unity Church of Christianity. The American Baptist Church is "sort-of" Universalist, as a recent survey found that 75% of their members do not believe in Eternal Hell. Let us now explore the options for Universalists in the United States today which include: 1) "Virtual" Universalists, 2) "Latent" Universalists, 3) "Closet" Universalists, 4) "Independent" Universalists, and 5) "Experiential" Universalists."Virtual" Universalism was born as a result of the Internet. For a few hundred dollars a year, an individual or small group can now publish its theology on the worldwide web, and Universalist web pages have appeared advocating a variety of Universalisms. The views range from the extreme Bible literalists, to liberal Christians, to Universalism in world religions. A couple of years ago, I became webmaster for the Universalist Herald ("The Oldest Continuously Published Liberal Religious Periodical in North America"). When I initiated its website (www.universalist-herald.net), I began exploring other Universalist websites with the ambitious goal of providing "links" to all the Universalist websites via our own. I have been pleasantly surprised to find that this was not possible; although I continually search the net for new links to Universalist Christianity and Universalism in world religions, more sites continually are added, faster than I can evaluate them! Some "Christian" Universalists are so fundamentalist as to exclude the UU denomination from their fold! I found one "Unitarian" site that has an article by someone who doesn't believe in Universalism. The Universalist Herald website does include links to conservative Christian sites; two of these sites (Tentmaker and True Grace Ministries) have more Universalist history on them than any UU site. True Grace Ministries even includes some 19th Century articles from the Universalist Herald. Our web links include three Quaker Universalist sites and one site of Universalism in world religions. It is gratifying to see that a lot of people in a lot of places are promoting Universalism in general and Universalist Christianity in particular.94% of Americans believe in God and 86% believe in Heaven, but only 71% believe in Hell. ... Using population figures from the 2000 U.S. Census, this means that there are 43 million "Latent" Universalists in the United States!
"Latent" Universalists are the next category. In his book Psychology and Religion, Michael Argyle sites a 1992 survey that found 94% of Americans believe in God and 86% believe in Heaven, but only 71% believe in Hell. This 15% discrepancy between belief in Heaven and Hell is a routine finding in sociological surveys; sometimes the discrepancy is as high as 20%. Using population figures from the 2000 U.S. Census, this means that there are 43 million "Latent" Universalists in the United States! Many of them probably would be surprised to learn that there is a longstanding, honorable theological position which affirms their beliefs! The web is one way to let them know that there is a name for what they believe — "Universalism." If we could herd all these folks into one denomination, we could give the Fundamentalists a run for their money!"Closet" Universalists are folks whose personal theology is Universalist and who base their belief on the Bible (or in the case of non-Christians, other holy books). They choose to stay within their traditional denomination — sometimes because of their spouse/partner's wishes, sometimes because of tradition, and sometimes because their city or town offers no alternative. Occasionally they do "come out" as Universalists but remain within their denomination. An impressive immerging subset of "Closet" Universalists is authors who write about Universalism but choose to maintain their identity with another Christian denomination. (Go to the "Books" tab on the Universalist Herald website for proof!) For example, Philip Gulley and James Mulholland (Quaker ministers) have written If Grace Is True and If God Is Love. Both books are selling very well and represent a real break-through into the marketing of Universalist books to the general public. Dennis, Sheila, and Matthew Linn (Roman Catholics) wrote a wonderful little book that is even suitable for teenagers called Good Goats. It has been in print for 12 years and received an Imprimi Potest (Seal of Approval) from the Catholic Church. (This gives us hope that the Catholics will eventually get around to rehabilitating Origen!) Other current authors advocating Universalist theology are American Baptist, Anglican, Dutch Reformed, Mennonite, Methodist, and Presbyterian. And the list is growing!
"Independent" Universalists have always been with us. These folks are very much Universalist in belief but are not members of any church. A good example of this is Thomas Talbott who wrote The Inescapable Love of God. A while back, I wrote Prof. Talbott to ask his denomination. He replied that he had belonged to the Church of Christ until his church found out he was a Universalist, and they removed him from their rolls! Another example is Gary and Michelle Amirault who are the creators of Tentmaker.org, one of the largest Universalist websites. They are not affiliated with any denomination but occasionally have Universalist "revivals" on their property. By far the most famous "Independent" Universalist was Abraham Lincoln who never joined a church. (This was not too unusual for his day as only 16% of Americans were church members in 1850. The number of Americans belonging to churches continued to rise until the 1960's when it reached a high water mark of 63%.) In his book The Almost Chosen People, later re-published as The Religion of Abraham Lincoln, Prof. William Wolf notes that Abraham Lincoln was a Universalist throughout his life. He lists three sources documenting that his Universalist beliefs were present in his youth and remained throughout his life. All three sources stated that Lincoln knew his Bible and could expand on Universalism at length. Lincoln was fond of repeating a jingle about a Native American, Johnny Kongapod: "Here lies poor Johnny Kongapod. Have mercy on him Gracious God, as he would do if he was God, and you were Johnny Kongapod." Another of Lincoln's frequent quotations was from St. Paul: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (I Cor. 15:22)
Finally, we come to one of the most dramatic changes to Universalism that can be described, and that is the category of "Experiential" Universalists. Through their personal religious mystical experiences, the unconditional love of God for ALL was made known to them. For the past 150 years, physicians and social scientists have been studying religious experience. In the 19th century, the Society for Psychical Research was founded to study this data academically, and in the early 20th century, William James' classic work, Varieties of Religious Experience, was published. While research in this area waned during the heydays of Marxism and Freudianism (1930 – 1960), scientific research on religious experience since 1960 has been prolific and persuasive.
Osis and Haraldsson researched deathbed visions in the United States and India and verified a cross-cultural consistency, although the religious figures seen in deathbed visions varied according to the person's religious background. Regardless of their religion, those dying reported dead relatives and religious figures coming to take them away to the afterlife. In over 1700 accounts, there was not one case in which the take-away person was an apparition of someone still alive. The physicians and nurses who reported the deathbed visions noted only one case that was Hellish. Shortly after this, the Religious Experience Research Centre founded by Sir Allister Hardy at Oxford (now at University of Wales, Lampeter) reported on 3000 cases of mystical religious experiences by ordinary people; only 5% of these were negative experiences. Over the years, research into developed countries has reported about 40% of their populations report mystical religious experiences on questionnaire; this goes up to 60% + when people are queried via personal interview. The numbers seem to be increasing, probably because more people are coming out of their spiritual "closet." Nothing changes one's mind like being personally touched by God! In addition to mystical religious experiences happening to a large number of people, we also have learned through modern research that the majority of these folks are normal or healthy and that, just as in the case of St. Paul in ancient times, they change the lives. Those who have mystical religious experiences report being more oriented toward helping others and improving society. Many researchers from William James onward are convinced that religious experiences like these are the basis for the writings of the world's religions. Over and over in the Bible we read of prophets having a mystical experience that empowers them to speak on God's behalf (e.g. Isaiah 6:1-8; II Corinthians 12:2-4).
Although in my mind, as a social scientist and religious researcher, the mystical religious experiences are the really big news, another phenomenon related to religion and afterlife has generated the most interest with the public: the near-death experience. Near-death experiences are not unique to modern man; Plato wrote about the near-death experience of a man named Er in his Republic. And Universalists have a premier 18th century account in the autobiography of one of our own — Dr. George De Benneville.
Thanks to modern resuscitation techniques, near-death experiences have become commonplace. While people occasionally report going to Hell, others report being rescued from Hell when they call out to God. Without question, the overwhelming majority of near-death experiences are positive. This has had an effect on the mindset of the general population regarding afterlife. A recent poll conducted by Beliefnet found 84% of their readers felt that the near-death experience was proof of afterlife. The physicians and social scientists who research this phenomenon are more cautious, but virtually all of them agree that near-death experiences, death-bed visions and related phenomena do point to afterlife. As William James said, "religion, in fact, for the great majority of our race, means immortality and nothing else." At the very least, mystical religious experiences and near-death experiences serve to invalidate the claims of Christian exclusivity.
Universalism has been part of Christianity from its earliest days. Like Zoroastrianism (Zoroaster preached Universal Salvation around 600BCE or earlier), Universalism is now imbedded within other denominations and religions. Is the growing number of Universalists sufficient to counter the evils of Christian exclusivity which continues to claim that God loves only people of a particular brand, of a specific sect, of a special religion? Or is it time for a revival of the Universalist Church — gathering together all who enthusiastically affirm that God is too good to condemn people to Eternal Hell? Universalism holds the key for resolving the strife in our modern, pluralistic world community. For people trapped in the dogma of Fundamentalism, Universalism offers a Bible-based alternative more essential today than ever — a God who promises ALL will be saved.
This article appeared in the January/February 2006 issue of The Universalist Herald. Ken R. Vincent, Ed.D., is Webmaster of Universalist-Herald.net. He is the author of The Golden Thread: God's Promise of Universal Salvation. Dr. Vincent served as a founding Board member of the Christian Universalist Association.
I think it is important to remember that all of the churches the epistles were written to were "universalist" churches, in that they all held the salvation of all as a foundation doctrine.
Yet they had many serious problems among them.
Spiritual warfare is always happening. Deception, seduction, division, sexual immorality, greed, etc.
There were overcoming churches and not so overcoming churches. But they were all universalist.... :o)
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we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.
We have different ideas about how that happens.
I understand that one who has darkened or blacknened their soul-body through what amounts to selfishness in varying degrees, can only take so much Light in a state of disembodiment due to the pain it causes, and should Jesus have appeared to Judas who had gone "to his own place" in His full Divine Presence without masking His Light somewhat, it would have horrified Judas.
Then one needs to consider the pain of treachery that Judas would be carrying around with him now knowing the truth, and even though the loving Saviour pours and pours His cleansing Love upon His fallen children, for Judas, about two thousand years ago, that Love would also have been a painful reminder of his act and the baser desires he would have had in his make-up to allow entry and possession of an wicked spirit, in my opinion.
But that was a long time ago, as we see it, and today I believe that Judas is in the position to know and understand the position and feelings of others who have betrayed their higher selves in the worst manner and is a powerful tool for God's use in aiding others.
Again, just the way I see it, in short.
That is how I see it too Lastpost
when faith is put tot he test , we all fall short , the thing is being reprobate and the man of sin is exposed , it was a spirit on him of disobedience
we are not be partakers with it . sin is utterly sinful and every evil and vile thing is contrary and goes against God in every way
Without faith it is impossible to please God ,,, and becomes a cut off branch and tossed in the fire
It is God whom grafts in what was lost or destroyed for all to see , so we may fear Him , this fear of the Lord is both being in awe and trembling at His judgments [presence ] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
Hebrews 10 A Call to Persevere
...30For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,...
All things work together , the good and bad the ugly , the ones whom do not know the depths of satan are blessed , Judas was one very unfortunate to KNOW the depths of satan , Just as Job was , the church of Thyatira Jesus said he would put no other burden/ WORD heaviness, weight, trouble on them ..
To know the Love of God you are truly blessed .. the WORD OF GOD judges us all , what we have or think we have can be taken away and given to another .
It is how we handle the Word of Life .
Quote from: rosered on March 06, 2016, 05:12:15 PM
That is how I see it too Lastpost
when faith is put tot he test , we all fall short , the thing is being reprobate and the man of sin is exposed , it was a spirit on him of disobedience
we are not be partakers with it . sin is utterly sinful and every evil and vile thing is contrary and goes against God in every way
Rosered, we talk of sin and we have learnt it exists, we have experienced the pain it causes, we have known what it is to feel remorse and the need to repent - and we avoid it if we can.
Yet I believe it goes much deeper than that, or rather much more subtle in its ramifications, and that is regard to a future in a purer arena than the earth.
Tonight we heard a little about aiming for the best that we can perceive and never settling for second best. And how this must go on until one has been perfected as Christ is perfect. So even when one reaches the best that was perceived, it is found again that some more of the humility of Christ has been made one's own and that what once seemed the best has itself become second best.
This makes complete sense to me as Christ is of such a sacred purity that I know I am far from that ideal.
We were hearing this because of those of old whom we revere and how in fact they view their own state of spirituality and consciousness, something which may be difficult for some to account who have put themselves first, as it were.
Quote from: lastpost on March 06, 2016, 01:11:04 PM
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we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.
We have different ideas about how that happens.
I understand that one who has darkened or blacknened their soul-body through what amounts to selfishness in varying degrees, can only take so much Light in a state of disembodiment due to the pain it causes, and should Jesus have appeared to Judas who had gone "to his own place" in His full Divine Presence without masking His Light somewhat, it would have horrified Judas.
Then one needs to consider the pain of treachery that Judas would be carrying around with him now knowing the truth, and even though the loving Saviour pours and pours His cleansing Love upon His fallen children, for Judas, about two thousand years ago, that Love would also have been a painful reminder of his act and the baser desires he would have had in his make-up to allow entry and possession of an wicked spirit, in my opinion.
But that was a long time ago, as we see it, and today I believe that Judas is in the position to know and understand the position and feelings of others who have betrayed their higher selves in the worst manner and is a powerful tool for God's use in aiding others.
Again, just the way I see it, in short.
I see it that way as well to some extent, in so far as it is like the two same ends of a magnet force each other away from each other.
God's self is perfect love, drawing into Himself all things in order to give life. Any other self seeking to draw into itself is an opposing force. The closed gate provides the resistance that drives it from the presence. Light, darkness; love, hate; humility, arrogance; forgiveness, bitterness; etc., etc.
This is what I believe happened when Satan fell from heaven, the focus on exalting himself, as soon as it was conceived, literally repelled him out of the presence of God.
"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you....
Regardless of whether these verses refer to Satan of not, they reveal a process.
The longer a soul repels God in this way, the further into outer darkness they go. Thus the angels who "left their proper domain." If they perish in outer darkness they will be held their in aidos chains awaiting the Day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ.
On that Day the penetrating gaze of Jesus will look down into and through the innermost parts of their being, exposing all through by the eyes that are as flames of fire, and speaking the word that transforms darkness to light by the word that is quick(as in cut to the quick) and active(as in effectual) and sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, and in measure to ones stubborness, a painful experience for some adversaries.
All those who do not bow the knee in the Day are destined for this experience, about which we can see little in detail but much in principle, and I believe it is spoken of in relation to the works of the saints(1 Cor 3:13-17) and the hearts of apostates (1 Cor 5:5) and resolution of adversaries who remain opposed at the Great white Throne.
Gehenna, to me, is for the purging of garbage who have at some point touched God and been called by Him. The lake of fire , for me, is about the exposure of the secret thoughts and the consuming of darkness in the hearts of the adversaries- the removal of the veil. But they could be the same thing, metaphorical images of a process, such as...
"he will separate the wheat from the chaff..... He will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire." or "every branch that bears noi fruit will be withered, and cut-off, and men shall gather them and throw them into the fire."
Also, the wheat and tares.
we often read linear, Christ often speaks from eternity, the transitional point of all times, which we experience at death. So, to me, the harvest is death, the wheat and the tares are separated after the harvest. We read, "the end of the age" and see linear in time....but it is the end of the age for each and every one who dies, passing from this world to the next, whether as a sleeping soul or a completely dead soul or as a conscious disembodied spirit in such as in the rich man and Lazarus- well people can argue those points forever to no avail, to me it doesn't matter.
It will all come out in the wash.
I think all these processes are going on in this life, but will be manifested in much more intensive form in the age to come- aionian kolassis.
What I dont believe is that anybody is channeling anybody or anything(outside the Holy Spirit or some demon) from "beyond the veil", saint, sinner or otherwise.
Yes, EW, I realise how this must be seen this way and appreciate the wider boundaries.
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It will all come out in the wash.
And for some the wash cycle must be a long time, in my opinion.
I do not see this as a literal event, as if someone spent their whole life with a completely wicked and debased character and now they are presented with a choice to bend the knee. I rather think this is a short sentence describing a long process over time.
I believe one should be wary as to the categorisation into confined terms of the Holy Spirit and what is and is not possible. I envisage, if you will, the light on the horizon is a little brighter than it was, and when it arrives the Holy Spirit will be looking for selfless instruments who have made the complete surrender in order that the children of God may become mature sons and daughters, so that sleeping slumbering humanity may awaken to the reality of a reckoning, a consequence to its existence. It will be according to God's Will, it will be effective to humanity because humanity will grasp the meaning behind it. Then the Holy Spirit will grow even more in power and in effect and all of humanity will be drawn to the Christ, and will be seen by all bar a few doubters and scoffers.
In general, that's the gist of it for me.
about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile: I believe this happened to Ephesus leader of the gnostic beliefs of matter is the evil, both before conversion and then later, making their first love fade..
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 04:25:16 AM
about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile:
I agree. Ken Vincent's article was interesting, and generally seems on track/informative etc. to me. I will mention, he is a unitarian universalist (generalizing, "anything/any belief [or nothing] goes"). That's one reason Gary has made sure to distinguish between Tentmaker as a Christian/Biblical UR, vs. other forms of universalism, many of which don't even suggest a belief or personal faith in Jesus Christ.
Quote from: jabcat on March 07, 2016, 05:04:41 AM
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 04:25:16 AM
about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile:
I agree. Ken Vincent's article was interesting, and generally seems on track/informative etc. to me. I will mention, he is a unitarian universalist (generalizing, "anything/any belief [or nothing] goes"). That's one reason Gary has made sure to distinguish between Tentmaker as a Christian/Biblical UR, vs. other forms of universalism, many of which don't even suggest a belief or personal faith in Jesus Christ.
I agree.
I dislike the word Universalist. To most people it conveys some ideology in variance to what the Bible teaches. It is true that the word Universalism is not found in the Bible. The word brings to peoples minds a kind of new age thinking or an idea that the work of Christ is somehow diminished. That also is unfortunate. So I believe that Universalism is an inappropriate word when talking about God's plan for mankind.
Simply put: God through Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world. All will be saved. That is the simple truth that ultimately all will be saved and God will be ALL in all.
:thumbsup: joe
When a thought leaves the dominion of love, it becomes an entity unto itself to betray the very heart it was conceived in
:2c: really I think the fault of men not understanding has nothing to do with translations,per se..but with the seals on the 'word' that only
the spirit of Christ is worthy to open unto us. Otherwise,surely the scribes and Pharisee's and sadducee's would have able to rightly
interpret...that there is a 'negative' that take's away or adds to the revelation of Christ to us is addressed.
look! Rev 17;15..power over all tongues. It is Jesus Christ who opens the scriptures unto us and makes our understanding
and receiving of the Bread from heaven which causes our hearts to burn within us when He does..and gives understanding.
but there are many men who are not qualified to open the scrolls who also compete..false teachers..many false christs..who
add to the confusion[babylon] of man..and hold him in bondage through their [mis]understandings that do not set the captives free.
never-the-less..we have His ultimate promise that all will be taught of God..and that God himself will finish our training..and
there shall be just spirits of men made perfect[understanding[truth] and Love=wisdom from above.
God is:
Love of Wisdom AND Wisdom of Love ..... Love of Wisdom rules WITH Wisdom of Love ..... they rule together as One (equals)
Whereas in men:
love of wisdom rules OVER wisdom of love ..... which causes the division between the two
Oh Shelia , you said it ,
It is the Holy Spirit as teacher and comforter after the lessons learned by testing our faith
to master and rule over the sin in our bodies , as it is dead to sin , but life in the Spirit is our hope this is why faith without works / Holy Spirit power working though us is dead !!! oh my gave a flood of many other things too , such as the they cannot fast when the bridegroom is present , the stones [hearts ]would cry out
I was looking at fasting and it was to do with the power of faith and hope in the Spirit making alive the Word of God and powerful and moving and the bonding or union of Love that death cannot separate
http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2902&t=KJV&page=2 (http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2902&t=KJV&page=2) wow !! :HeartThrob:
Abstaining from foods is eating of the tree of knowlege of good and evil!!! and keeping silent as the mouth is shut ... shutting the door and praying in secret
This is what Jesus done in the wilderness 40 days and nights when tempted of the devil being sent by the Holy Spirit right after the Jordan , descent baptism as the was Pleased fulfilling righteousness under the law / Jordan river ....
He only used the WORD OF GOD against satan to rebuke him so he had to flee from His presence perfecting faith with the works of the law though the Holy Spirit of love and deny the temptation to exalt Himself above others , by turning stones to bread or given power over the cities or throw Himself down to tempt the Father , but become a servant to all though He be the Only begotten , one of His kind , Son of God .
Jesus was about equality and loving all the same , helping the lesser and putting the more equipped to help out more , sharing and caring in that same Love of God upon all
We saw Peter needing help of Jesus and than when he was converted "turned around " to help feed the sheep because He loved Jesus , and Jesus loved him first when he was so needy and sinner saved by grace .. Love works both ways
would also like to bring into remembrance..that God 'PURPOSELY" confused the tongue of the people building the tower to reach
unto heaven to make a name for themselves. As Jesus Christ is the only way...and I haven't yet figured out if man has left off
that endeavour...I think not..where unitarism...and the NWO is concerned.
not one stone left upon a stone...certainly at His return He picks them up one by one...all that has been scattered unto the four
corners of heaven and earth.
Matt 26;31 ....all of ye shall be offended by me this night..because IT IS WRITTEN.."I WILL SMITE THE SHEPHERD AND
THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED ABROAD. there is a time for every purpose under heaven...a time to gather and a time
to scatter. surely men/sheep have been scattered all over the earth...............
2Thess 2;1 Now we beseech you brethern,by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,and by our gathering togather unto Him
that ye be not soon shaken in mind,or be troubled neither by spirit,not by word,nor by letter as from us....that the DAY OF CHRIST
IS AT HAND. Let no man deceive ye by any means;for that day shall NOT come until the falling away FIRST..and the
MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED!!!!!!! the mystery of iniquity...and THEN Shall the wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume
with the spirit of His mouth................
look for it,children..look for it....He shall reveal it....
Quote from: jugghead on March 07, 2016, 06:54:52 PM
God is:
Love of Wisdom AND Wisdom of Love ..... Love of Wisdom rules WITH Wisdom of Love ..... they rule together as One (equals)
Whereas in men:
love of wisdom rules OVER wisdom of love ..... which causes the division between the two
Yes bro knowledge will cease !! but LOVE REMAINS!!
There is no greater POWER than LOVE !! GOD IS LOVE .. and the bond of perfection . complete and whole in HIM
Faith is the very substance and measure[seed of Hope Alive being JESUS CHRIST being the WORD OF GOD ] given to every man ,
and this tiny seed planted in our earth by the Father
Luke 17 The Power of Faith
5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
6And the Lord said, "If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree,
'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and
it would obey you.
7"Which of you,
having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come immediately and sit down to eat'?...
The earthly express the power of faith TO MOVE mountains , trees out of its place and change things !
and little children..I do not want you to be dismayed by the revelation of the man of sin......for you will find that the strong delusion
was given unto satan and the demons..that they should ever win in a war against Father and Jesus Christ. That they should ever
..through their wicked works..cause Our Father to lose even one child[not even Judas] and though through satans wicked works
man has been prey and misled and confused and those believing in Christ divided and scattered by it all. That Jesus will do away
with all confusion of mankind with His consuming breath...and gather us all togather..we who wait on Him.
love to you all..God's mercy and Blessing and peace be upon you.
Quote from: sheila on March 07, 2016, 07:20:57 PM
and little children..I do not want you to be dismayed by the revelation of the man of sin......for you will find that the strong delusion
was given unto satan and the demons..that they should ever win in a war against Father and Jesus Christ. That they should ever
..through their wicked works..cause Our Father to lose even one child[not even Judas] and though through satans wicked works
man has been prey and misled and confused and those believing in Christ divided and scattered by it all. That Jesus will do away
with all confusion of mankind with His consuming breath...and gather us all togather..we who wait on Him.
love to you all..God's mercy and Blessing and peace be upon you.
:dsunny:
Quote from: rosered on March 04, 2016, 09:19:55 PM
Quote from: CST on March 04, 2016, 07:03:04 PM
Thank you, Rosered. I just hope it's a simple as your post suggest (if I've understood correctly). The commandment to love each other sounds pretty simple for a clue to what the next age must be like. But God's made everything and they still seems to be a lot the will not get into Heaven or be in Heaven. I like the idea of being 'free in spirit' but I suspect there's still a rather bad piece of carnal minded think in the reading. I tend to see the word 'free' as 'free to do' and that's a problem because not actually sure what Ill be free to do though there's a fair few things I sure I won't be free to do and expect I won't want to. The snag is that all those things are things I don't want to do now if I can help it and that seems very carnal minded, hence my original post in this thread which, I admit, was probably not as clear as when I first conceived it.
Hi there CST ,
For me it is mankind trying to figure out God , and that is not possible .. and it goes into many things , but keeping it simple as a child can understand it , is what helps the most , cause if Rose starts adding to the word of God or taking away , than here comes trouble , this is why the Lord said let your yes , be yes and no be no , anything more evil is present and ready to bind us up again and cast us into prison for judgment .
Jesus did some amazing "miracles same as signs " and said tell no man , man would hinder the Spirit
always a 3 part thing for some reason ,
Here is what helped me the very most , If you can see God made Adam in the beginning in His own image [ Gen1 ] that is Spirit and in Gen 2 as a soul[ nephesh a creature of the earth [subject to vanity and emptiness futility in other words fruitless and subject to corruption bondage to sin and error ] dust of the ground with a breath in Him and the 3rd part and best part the BODY of Christ ...
we are in the body of Adam death realm and also in the Body of Christ LIVING realm , that is the heavenly place , we go in and out , remember Jesus telling his chosen few , pray , pray pray to not fall into temptation , for the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak [This to me is one big reason why Jesus CHRIST IS THE LORD master / teacher ruler of the dead and the living and contains ALL THINGS till GOD BE ALL IN ALL ,,, Jesus christ is RECONCILING all things to the FATHER and no man knows !! you look at the world and see Chaos and it looks like the opposite ,,, but the Spirit knows all things are working together for the good of those , love Him and whom are called according to His own purpose .. We get to partake of the Spirit in a small way here and now and become apart of the BIG PICTURE .
Why would Jesus call this a fall or enterance into a place of temptation? , that to me is the lower state of being carnal minded from a higher state of being Spiritual minded ..
Pray we do not enter or fall , stumble trip up , into temptation is the sleeping in Adam Matt 26 Jesus Prays at Gethsemane
...40And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour?
41"Keep watching and praying that you may not enter/ fall into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."...
now I do believe that in Adam all die or consider it a sleep in sorrow , this is because God shortened the days of our weakened flesh , from 930 years of being subjected to evil and all the vile things in mans hearts coming forth being ruled by SIN / ERROR / MISSING THE MARK ..
To me the mark is the seal of God and redemption though GODS grace and mercy on us , the covenant of promises made throughout the WORD OF GOD ..
Prayer is key to keeping the hearts door open to receive the things of the Holy Spirit , and the time to close the hearts door and wait on the Lord to do His thing because He is with you , as the overflowing scourge passes over us , Just as the lambs blood was on the door post in the days of Israel we too experience the same chastening of obedience or disobedience , or we too will be swept away by the flood of lies
Babylon is what we are to avoid , and that is the mixing of good and evil and all becomes spoiled and useless , because corruption has entered in a little leaven can cause a rising , in the good and also in the evil and this is the discerning the spirits if they be of God or not ..
Because it is a spiritual warfare we are battling with on a daily basis and if GOD be fore you who can be against you ?
There is as much or as little you can experience all depending on what the Lord has called and chosen you to experience in this time on earth , but I believe it is only the beginning of making all things new within us
You / none would not even believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God without the HOLY SPIRIT giving it to us as a free gift and if you use the gift for good and GOD in HIS MERCY will give the increase according to His desire .
I have those carnal moments and am tempted to fall from GODS GRACE but always asking Jesus for help and tell Him constantly LORD YOU know me better than I know myself , Just like Peter was in error and was called satan / adversary to GODS WILL / desire , I too miss the mark and error and pay for it with , not getting to stay in the Spirit of peace and joy in the Lord , but God sure knows we want to be with Him.. and please HIM and love Him like he loves us
Hello, Rosered. This thread has really grown since I lost the post I was meant to send you last week. I imagine somehow God didn't wish for me to send it then. I certainly like and enjoy much of what you say though I am not always sure what I do and don't agree with.
I'm certainly not sure that I'm very good t putting the word of the Bible into practice in fact I think I'm very bad of it. But faith would suggest that if I was in the 'saved now' group I would be good at it and if I'm in the 'saved later' group then there'd be nothing I could do about it. I find these thoughts confusing especially as they make the faith I mention seem to be a kind of paradox. Only people in the saved now group actually have faith but if I'm not in that group then where's the information about 'what faith tells me come from'?
Do you believe that people really lived 930 literal years in those days. Those sorts of thought create other paradoxes in my head because I believe spiritual death does exist and really occurred in the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree.
I suspect the phrase 'the wages of sin is death' may suggest that each of our sind in fact repeats or reinforces that death. Living in that sate for nearly a millennium doesn't sound pleasant.
The mixing of good and evil is an interesting one as I'm not if it's impossible to do or impossible to avoid or what in one case the best deeds can be undermined completely in the light of one evil one but on the other hand I don't believ anyone who walks the Earth is perfectly either. They can't be surely? Very strange.
"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" it says but I don't think that means atheists can't make the statement believing they are speaking falsely.
The Bible says a lot of things and seems to contain many paradoxes that are both confusing and fascinating.
I think God knows, from His perspective, what we are or are not capable of, from His perspective. We, if we are wise seek His face and endeavor to abide in Him, so that we can grow with the growth that comes from God through grace.
I believe that it is made simple for exactly that reason- because we do not have the perspective from which to figure everything out. "Abide in me"....."Watch and Pray"....."Walk in the Spirit"
Better to trust that He loves us, or he wouldnt have sent his son for us. He forgives us, or He wouldnt have hung on that cross for us. he understands our weakness, or he couldnt be that priest, ever making intercession for us in the presence of God.
Quote from: CST on March 07, 2016, 08:30:05 PM
Hello, Rosered. This thread has really grown since I lost the post I was meant to send you last week. I imagine somehow God didn't wish for me to send it then. I certainly like and enjoy much of what you say though I am not always sure what I do and don't agree with.
I'm certainly not sure that I'm very good t putting the word of the Bible into practice in fact I think I'm very bad of it. But faith would suggest that if I was in the 'saved now' group I would be good at it and if I'm in the 'saved later' group then there'd be nothing I could do about it. I find these thoughts confusing especially as they make the faith I mention seem to be a kind of paradox. Only people in the saved now group actually have faith but if I'm not in that group then where's the information about 'what faith tells me come from'?
Do you believe that people really lived 930 literal years in those days. Those sorts of thought create other paradoxes in my head because I believe spiritual death does exist and really occurred in the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree.
I suspect the phrase 'the wages of sin is death' may suggest that each of our sind in fact repeats or reinforces that death. Living in that sate for nearly a millennium doesn't sound pleasant.
The mixing of good and evil is an interesting one as I'm not if it's impossible to do or impossible to avoid or what in one case the best deeds can be undermined completely in the light of one evil one but on the other hand I don't believ anyone who walks the Earth is perfectly either. They can't be surely? Very strange.
"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" it says but I don't think that means atheists can't make the statement believing they are speaking falsely.
The Bible says a lot of things and seems to contain many paradoxes that are both confusing and fascinating.
Hi CST ,
I am for one glad you question everything , you remind of myself , I am constantly questioning every thought that comes to mind or shared by others here at the forum or in the Word of God / Bible . and I do not know many things and do become confused at times , but that is when I go silent and have nothing to say . This is when I ask Jesus to help me understand what He wants me to know now
I do not trust folks whom say they have it all figured out , I do respect my elders though and when the Spirit quickens a Word in that moment , it makes alive a hope in me that makes me try harder and not give up , because sometimes I really do want to
I do think if you ask the Lord Jesus, He will help you understand in ways you never considered possible .
I do believe even faith comes from the Lord , many asked in the Word for Him to increase their faith ,and I also ask, many here ask , you asked or you would not even be here , I do believe that things are as Given of the Lord we have nothing of our own ,
The seed planted in your heart is the Word of Faith and hope and Love , these 3 things are what we got to work with as the Holy Spirit teaches us
How we are born again from above , faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying and our Hope is in the Spirit of Life that quickens us in the Love of God
We grow in truth and grace as in Gods desire , not our own desire , it would be like me ready to ride a mountain bike when I am only prepared to ride a tricycle in reality , our expectations of faith are proven by the testing of it , I do believe this with all my heart , like Peter when he thought he was full of faith and would not deny Jesus when tested and what did he do ? When Jesus told him He would deny HIM 3 times before the morning come / rooster crowed oh no Lord not me !! but He did , I can so relate to Peter in many of those examples in the Bible and when He said he loved Jesus
Jesus did not give up on Peter though .... and He will not on anyone seeking to please the Father ....
Jesus told him , Peter do you love me 3 times ? It hurt Peters feelings that the Lord doubted him , How could Peter prove love to Jesus ? by feeding His lambs / sheep ! wow this is an honor to serve the Lord by feeding his lambs and sheep spiritual food for thought . the WORD OF GOD , eat my body and drink my blood that you might have life in you ... JESUS CHRIST IS SALVATION OF GOD and the grace given as a gift to every one .
John 21 ...16He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." 17He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep. 18"
Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go."...19 Now this He said,signifying by what kind of death
he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He *said to him, "Follow Me!"
For me , this stretching out your hands , has a powerful meaning , that the carnal mind can only question what that means , It means to me that Peter would also follow Jesus in that same cross of suffering for obedience unto death and this test of faith does glorify God by overcoming the world , this is death to me ,this is why are to consider our bodies as good as dead already so the Spirit of Life can rule over it and not sin .
I do believe the Lord shortened the days of our flesh for the elects sake[called out of the world in it but not of it ] Jesus prayer John 17 , in those days are still our days
The Abomination of Desolation has always warred against the Holy Spirit from the beginning Gen 2 when Adam ate death reigned till the law come though Moses to expose sin and it would become utterly sinful till , Jesus Christ come to destroy it and reign in its place Life for death Romans 6 , 7 , 8 hen Paul was showing it was sin in his own members . body of death that the law showed him what sin was , and thanked the Lord Jesus Christ for delivering Him from that body of death ..
...21"For then there will be a
great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short,
no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days
will be cut short. 23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him....
I agree that we can be spiritually dead but alive in the flesh as sin rules till the law comes and exposes the sinful beast within us that is contrary to God , this would be the most miserable of times and totally powerless to overcome , but as Paul said in Romans 8 we can glorify God by the Lord Jesus Christ delivering us from that state of being , that is a spiritual war that kills that vile , prideful arrogant spirit within us ,, so we can now be joined to Christ
body of believers , you will believe after that battle ! I believe Revelation explains the process to the T ...or cross with the opening the seals
That John was able to declare to us only because He was in the Spirit on the Lords day and not in the flesh and the Lords day is what every carnal beast will experience with that spirit of babylon ruling his heart , it was because John had the Spirit of prophecy which is the testimony of Jesus Christ in his heart and opened to receive the things of God though the Spirit
This may sound odd to you and I sure hope some things were clear , I have never been able to speak plainly as some do , But God knows it is only to help and not stumble anyone . God bless
Quote from: eaglesway on March 07, 2016, 09:13:37 PM
I think God knows, from His perspective, what we are or are not capable of, from His perspective. We, if we are wise seek His face and endeavor to abide in Him, so that we can grow with the growth that comes from God through grace.
I believe that it is made simple for exactly that reason- because we do not have the perspective from which to figure everything out. "Abide in me"....."Watch and Pray"....."Walk in the Spirit"
Better to trust that He loves us, or he wouldnt have sent his son for us. He forgives us, or He wouldnt have hung on that cross for us. he understands our weakness, or he couldnt be that priest, ever making intercession for us in the presence of God.
Yes ,, it took a while to write and am poor in writing skills , thanks bro for saying something in case I was not able too.
:HeartThrob: you are so right it is waiting on the Lord and clinging to Him , He is our protection and our help in the hour of need .
Thank you for the opportunity to explain more CST , God bless you and all
Quote from: jugghead on March 07, 2016, 08:22:40 PM
Quote from: sheila on March 07, 2016, 07:20:57 PM
and little children..I do not want you to be dismayed by the revelation of the man of sin......for you will find that the strong delusion
was given unto satan and the demons..that they should ever win in a war against Father and Jesus Christ. That they should ever
..through their wicked works..cause Our Father to lose even one child[not even Judas] and though through satans wicked works
man has been prey and misled and confused and those believing in Christ divided and scattered by it all. That Jesus will do away
with all confusion of mankind with His consuming breath...and gather us all togather..we who wait on Him.
love to you all..God's mercy and Blessing and peace be upon you.
:dsunny:
AMEN ! :HeartThrob: Glory to God in the highest praise possible , Love has covered us by His own blood .
Thank you Jesus .
Quote from: joeteekay on March 07, 2016, 05:21:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 07, 2016, 05:04:41 AM
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 04:25:16 AM
about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile:
I agree. Ken Vincent's article was interesting, and generally seems on track/informative etc. to me. I will mention, he is a unitarian universalist (generalizing, "anything/any belief [or nothing] goes"). That's one reason Gary has made sure to distinguish between Tentmaker as a Christian/Biblical UR, vs. other forms of universalism, many of which don't even suggest a belief or personal faith in Jesus Christ.
I agree.
I dislike the word Universalist. To most people it conveys some ideology in variance to what the Bible teaches. It is true that the word Universalism is not found in the Bible. The word brings to peoples minds a kind of new age thinking or an idea that the work of Christ is somehow diminished. That also is unfortunate. So I believe that Universalism is an inappropriate word when talking about God's plan for mankind. Simply put: God through Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world. All will be saved. That is the simple truth that ultimately all will be saved and God will be ALL in all.
amen... universal belief/following Jesus...
I wonder
? did universalism begin grounded in God's Word? but then wandered or fell away from God's word? And into mere thoughts and ideas of human thinking? Or were they never really grounded in God's word to begin with? :dontknow:
QuoteAmen... universal belief/following Jesus...
I wonder? did universalism begin grounded in God's Word? but then wandered or fell away from God's word? And into mere thoughts and ideas of human thinking? Or were they never really grounded in God's word to begin with? :dontknow:
The restoration of all things was proclaimed on the first day the gospel went forth(Acts 3:17-21)
Paul wrote about it continually (Romans 5:25; 8:18-23; Rom 11:32-36; 1 Cor 15:22-28; Eph 1:9-11; Eph 4:10; Col 1:15-20 1 Tim 2:3-7 & 4:10). John wrote about it(John 12:32; 1 John 2;1,2; Rev 5:13 Rev 21:5). Many other verses also become more easily understood and integrated with the rest of scripture once these verses I listed are understood, such as Isaiah 25:6-8
The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7 And on this mountain
He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,when that verse is read in the light if 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and 2 Cor 5;1-5 and Eph 1:9,10 it becomes so clear that I believe, from the tone of paul and John's writing, that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it. It was a part of the foundation doctrines they taught (see hebrews 6:1-3), it was the basic fabric of the doctrines of "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb 6:2) and was considered "elementary" "foundational" and "pure milk".
:2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2016, 12:16:56 AM
QuoteAmen... universal belief/following Jesus...
I wonder? did universalism begin grounded in God's Word? but then wandered or fell away from God's word? And into mere thoughts and ideas of human thinking? Or were they never really grounded in God's word to begin with? :dontknow:
The restoration of all things was proclaimed on the first day the gospel went forth(Acts 3:17-21)
Paul wrote about it continually (Romans 5:25; 8:18-23; Rom 11:32-36; 1 Cor 15:22-28; Eph 1:9-11; Eph 4:10; Col 1:15-20 1 Tim 2:3-7 & 4:10). John wrote about it(John 12:32; 1 John 2;1,2; Rev 5:13 Rev 21:5). Many other verses also become more easily understood and integrated with the rest of scripture once these verses I listed are understood, such as Isaiah 25:6-8
The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7 And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death for all time,
when that verse is read in the light if 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and 2 Cor 5;1-5 and Eph 1:9,10 it becomes so clear that I believe, from the tone of paul and John's writing, that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it. It was a part of the foundation doctrines they taught (see hebrews 6:1-3), it was the basic fabric of the doctrines of "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb 6:2) and was considered "elementary" "foundational" and "pure milk".
:2c:
This is great news John Thank you :HeartThrob:
He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the Lord has spoken.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2016, 12:16:56 AM
when that verse is read in the light if 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and 2 Cor 5;1-5 and Eph 1:9,10 it becomes so clear that I believe, from the tone of paul and John's writing, that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it. It was a part of the foundation doctrines they taught (see hebrews 6:1-3), it was the basic fabric of the doctrines of "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb 6:2) and was considered "elementary" "foundational" and "pure milk".
:2c:
" that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it."
Indeed the clarity of why we are here was taught among the Jews. They were all taught the old testament by rote; there lifestyle fully included the remembrance of scriptures. Peter, although only a fisherman, knew every prophecy and history that had been recorded thus far.
They still know and learn the O.T The Pharisees hid there deception about there incident with Christ from the people.
Zecharaiah speaks how the Jews will wail when there eyes are opened.
I recall being in many tears when Christ was revealed correctly- how much He has actually suffered for us and done for us is incredible.
His actual depth of being able to identify with EVERY THING we go through because He was actually like us made more sense than the teaching of the church which claimed He was like us, yet overlooked things like in Isaiah 53 which describes how He will be detested and looked down upon by the Jews when He first appears.
I.M.O if we look at this age as being the only part of the plan before heaven or hell, then this all becomes a vague, pointless exercise.
When the purpose of right from wrong is linked to a system which works in progressive stages of development that involves every single person in the picture, having different roles to play, each learning at their own pace, with ONE teacher instead of many; then the precision to detail, the price actually paid for us all, makes sense for me.
The inhuman God becomes a master Who knows everything works together; each at it's own rate; till ALL are in the kingdom where true equality is through the one point of entry- Christ. He will wipe away EVERY tear.
When things make sense the reasoning releases the guilt, depression, inadequacy, failure and nails them all to the cross.
His love cannot be kept away from us by anything- death, nor life, nor any other thing can keep us from the love of God in Jesus Christ His son.
:thumbsup:
QuoteWhen things make sense the reasoning releases the guilt, depression, inadequacy, failure and nails them all to the cross.
His love cannot be kept away from us by anything- death, nor life, nor any other thing can keep us from the love of God in Jesus Christ His son.
Exactly. That is why I count it a privilege to address the corruption of the gospel in contemporary christianity. Such a disservice to the sheep of His pasture.
I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.(Acts 20:27-30)
At the source of all heresy is an attempt to draw disciples unto the messenger rather than Christ. This is the essence of the wolves in sheeps clothing.
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14
But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:13-18
It is so amazing that the response to this message of freely given restoration is treated with contempt and persecution- but it makes sense, because it threatens all the leverage of the power structures of man. In the end it has disarmed every principality and power and torn down every stronghold and fortress exalted against the true knowledge of God. it is for this reason that we speak a wisdom among the mature that the rulers of this age cannot hear or understand- and if they had understood they would never have crucified Christ, since the laying down of His life dissoleved, anulled and ultimately destroyed every adversary standing against Him, and us :o)
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:18-21
Even tho we know that the source of deception is the devil, we must walk as lambs to the slaughter, speaking the truth in love, because it is the love of God, and Christ crucified- displayed through our patience and humility that allows the Holy Spirit to break the bonds that hold those unto whom our gospel is veiled.
But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. 2 Tim 2:23-26
Amen!! :thumbsup:
The gentleness is indeed awesome.
Just thinking of a little illustration; When I gave my son a bike I was aware there would be mistakes, falls, loss of skin, a little pain here and there, as he was learning to ride. He learnt from those mistakes and now they are rare, if at all. If I had not given him the bike he would not have learnt. Does that mean I do not love him? I think not. However there is so much to learn in the process.
And that is only a minute part of the whole process.
Bash him to bits to correct him and there would be constant fear and a sense of inadequacy or failing. Correcting him by pointing out what has happened and why, doing that in a gentle manner, made him listen. Still made mistakes, just does not live in fear while learning.
So Again, Amen!
Quote from: rosered on March 07, 2016, 09:51:19 PM
Quote from: CST on March 07, 2016, 08:30:05 PM
Hello, Rosered. This thread has really grown since I lost the post I was meant to send you last week. I imagine somehow God didn't wish for me to send it then. I certainly like and enjoy much of what you say though I am not always sure what I do and don't agree with.
I'm certainly not sure that I'm very good t putting the word of the Bible into practice in fact I think I'm very bad of it. But faith would suggest that if I was in the 'saved now' group I would be good at it and if I'm in the 'saved later' group then there'd be nothing I could do about it. I find these thoughts confusing especially as they make the faith I mention seem to be a kind of paradox. Only people in the saved now group actually have faith but if I'm not in that group then where's the information about 'what faith tells me come from'?
Do you believe that people really lived 930 literal years in those days. Those sorts of thought create other paradoxes in my head because I believe spiritual death does exist and really occurred in the day Adam ate from the forbidden tree.
I suspect the phrase 'the wages of sin is death' may suggest that each of our sind in fact repeats or reinforces that death. Living in that sate for nearly a millennium doesn't sound pleasant.
The mixing of good and evil is an interesting one as I'm not if it's impossible to do or impossible to avoid or what in one case the best deeds can be undermined completely in the light of one evil one but on the other hand I don't believ anyone who walks the Earth is perfectly either. They can't be surely? Very strange.
"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" it says but I don't think that means atheists can't make the statement believing they are speaking falsely.
The Bible says a lot of things and seems to contain many paradoxes that are both confusing and fascinating.
Hi CST ,
I am for one glad you question everything , you remind of myself , I am constantly questioning every thought that comes to mind or shared by others here at the forum or in the Word of God / Bible . and I do not know many things and do become confused at times , but that is when I go silent and have nothing to say . This is when I ask Jesus to help me understand what He wants me to know now
I do not trust folks whom say they have it all figured out , I do respect my elders though and when the Spirit quickens a Word in that moment , it makes alive a hope in me that makes me try harder and not give up , because sometimes I really do want to
I do think if you ask the Lord Jesus, He will help you understand in ways you never considered possible .
I do believe even faith comes from the Lord , many asked in the Word for Him to increase their faith ,and I also ask, many here ask , you asked or you would not even be here , I do believe that things are as Given of the Lord we have nothing of our own ,
The seed planted in your heart is the Word of Faith and hope and Love , these 3 things are what we got to work with as the Holy Spirit teaches us
How we are born again from above , faith comes by hearing what the Spirit is saying and our Hope is in the Spirit of Life that quickens us in the Love of God
We grow in truth and grace as in Gods desire , not our own desire , it would be like me ready to ride a mountain bike when I am only prepared to ride a tricycle in reality , our expectations of faith are proven by the testing of it , I do believe this with all my heart , like Peter when he thought he was full of faith and would not deny Jesus when tested and what did he do ? When Jesus told him He would deny HIM 3 times before the morning come / rooster crowed oh no Lord not me !! but He did , I can so relate to Peter in many of those examples in the Bible and when He said he loved Jesus
Jesus did not give up on Peter though .... and He will not on anyone seeking to please the Father ....
Jesus told him , Peter do you love me 3 times ? It hurt Peters feelings that the Lord doubted him , How could Peter prove love to Jesus ? by feeding His lambs / sheep ! wow this is an honor to serve the Lord by feeding his lambs and sheep spiritual food for thought . the WORD OF GOD , eat my body and drink my blood that you might have life in you ... JESUS CHRIST IS SALVATION OF GOD and the grace given as a gift to every one .
John 21 ...16He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." 17He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep. 18"Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go."...19 Now this He said,signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He *said to him, "Follow Me!"
For me , this stretching out your hands , has a powerful meaning , that the carnal mind can only question what that means , It means to me that Peter would also follow Jesus in that same cross of suffering for obedience unto death and this test of faith does glorify God by overcoming the world , this is death to me ,this is why are to consider our bodies as good as dead already so the Spirit of Life can rule over it and not sin .
I do believe the Lord shortened the days of our flesh for the elects sake[called out of the world in it but not of it ] Jesus prayer John 17 , in those days are still our days The Abomination of Desolation has always warred against the Holy Spirit from the beginning Gen 2 when Adam ate death reigned till the law come though Moses to expose sin and it would become utterly sinful till , Jesus Christ come to destroy it and reign in its place Life for death
Romans 6 , 7 , 8 hen Paul was showing it was sin in his own members . body of death that the law showed him what sin was , and thanked the Lord Jesus Christ for delivering Him from that body of death ..
...21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him....
I agree that we can be spiritually dead but alive in the flesh as sin rules till the law comes and exposes the sinful beast within us that is contrary to God , this would be the most miserable of times and totally powerless to overcome , but as Paul said in Romans 8 we can glorify God by the Lord Jesus Christ delivering us from that state of being , that is a spiritual war that kills that vile , prideful arrogant spirit within us ,, so we can now be joined to Christ
body of believers , you will believe after that battle ! I believe Revelation explains the process to the T ...or cross with the opening the seals
That John was able to declare to us only because He was in the Spirit on the Lords day and not in the flesh and the Lords day is what every carnal beast will experience with that spirit of babylon ruling his heart , it was because John had the Spirit of prophecy which is the testimony of Jesus Christ in his heart and opened to receive the things of God though the Spirit
This may sound odd to you and I sure hope some things were clear , I have never been able to speak plainly as some do , But God knows it is only to help and not stumble anyone . God bless
It was fairly clear I imagine I found some parts clearer than others but I certainly liked reading it.
I sometimes do pray for understanding of scripture, usually for understanding of particular passages I'm reading at the time. I also believe I've got answers on many things, I think even some things I've don't think I've directly prayed for. This leads me to have unique interpretations of scripture (possibly) but I don't actually know that I haven't just made them up in many cases, although seeing others in agreement can help.
For example one thing I didn't get round to mentioning yesterday when I was trying to respond to your points on Babylon and the mixing of good and evil was the very beginning of the Bible, Genesis one frequently read by many as a literal interpretation of how God created the world even when the science says otherwise.
Some people don't take it literally but some atheists will attack them on this point and claim (falsely) that it was meant to be taken literally and was exclusively taken literally until it was discovered that that might not be tenable.
So God created the world in seven literal days and Genesis says so and we all should believe that. Did He, does it say that, really? Here's what it says:
'And God said, "Let there be light": and there was light. And God saw that the light was good, and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.' (Gen1:3-5)
Let's read that again, shall we? ' God separated the light from the darkness' What, wait, hang on. How'd He manage that? In all human understanding light and darkness are separated by definition, they are opposites and canot be mixed. When I try to consider what the world was like before light and darkness were separated the best I can imagine is strobing.
That's not humanly possible but, of course, God can do it and it seems He has and the only answer it gives for He might have done so is that 'God called the light Day, and the darkness he called night' and that all we have. Light and darkness are separated by the definitions of Day and Night and an Earth day, in the literal interpretation, is taken to be a 24 hour period comprising some Day and some Night. So what does Genesis say: 'And there was evening and there was morning, one day.'
Where's the night here? As written evening is immediately succeeded by morning with no evident night between them. Now these days this can happen in the world because night also has a very specific definition in science and sometimes never comes. But this is the book of Genesis and it gives a very specific definition of what Night and Day actually mean and it's not the one people use to literalize the work.
So what's the point here? Well, if God has separated Day and Night, light and darkness so that we cannot mix them, how then shall we think we can really mix good and evil? What's different about them?
I like that you've used the example of Peter, especially fascinating being in all four gospels as I recall, but I'm not sure I see it as you do and I'm not sure I see the elect you do. The example of Peter shows how even people who can seem very loyal to the Lord can be tempted away for a time. No one is immune everyone can be drawn away even the elect although they are protected from many temptations. Cutting short the days of the ends is a means of protecting the from temptation so that they not be lost with the save laters, (such is my understanding) not simply making individual lives shorter because otherwise it's only meaningful for the elect it would seem to me.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
Maybe I just want to believe this, but I think we all have a divine calling from God.
Does it look divine to us, when it is someone else's calling.....probably, most of the time, it doesn't.
Do we all accept the calling? I would say definitely not. At least, not always here on earth.
I don't believe that God would make us all to love Him, and to be loved by Him, and yet not make us for a godly mission.
I am certainly not sure how this all plays out, but it fits my belief, of who God is. And, hopefully, it is the Spirit, directing me to this vision of humanity.
As a Special Education teacher, I have worked with profoundly and severely handicapped children and adults. Many of them have taught me priceless, divine lessons.
No one is beyond God's ability to call them to carry out His will. Certainly, the O.T. Bible Stories should teach us this.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
My :2c:
D. :girlheart:
:iagree:
[/quote]
Quote from: jugghead on March 05, 2016, 09:56:37 PM
was lead to speak my mind
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
Maybe I just want to believe this, but I think we all have a divine calling from God.
Yes, I believe that also, we are either called to be a vessel of honor here and now (in the physical realm) or a vessel of dishonor here and now (in the physical realm)..... and who are we to judge another if his calling was a vessel of dishonor? When that person dies and his spirit returns to the Father, would not the Father say "well done good and faithful servant" if his calling was to be a vessel of dishonor in the physical realm? Just look at Judas Iscariot, he was called to betray Jesus, to carry out a part of the Father's plan of the crucifixion of Christ which we know leads to the salvation of all. I myself, will honor Judas in his calling, for he did what he was called to do even though he did not know what he was doing. I will forgive him for he knew not what he did.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
Does it look divine to us, when it is someone else's calling.....probably, most of the time, it doesn't.
This is answered with the first explanation in the calling of Judas, it may not look like it was divine calling, but it was
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
Do we all accept the calling? I would say definitely not. At least, not always here on earth.
We either accept it willingly or unwillingly depending on what the Father has called us to do. (honor or dishonor in this realm)
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
I don't believe that God would make us all to love Him, and to be loved by Him, and yet not make us for a godly mission.
Again, each persons part is played out by His design, honor or dishonor in this realm ..... either/or it is a godly mission
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
I am certainly not sure how this all plays out, but it fits my belief, of who God is. And, hopefully, it is the Spirit, directing me to this vision of humanity.
It is His Spirit directing you
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
As a Special Education teacher, I have worked with profoundly and severely handicapped children and adults. Many of them have taught me priceless, divine lessons.
Have they not fulfilled their calling if they have taught you something priceless? You and I both believe it so
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
No one is beyond God's ability to call them to carry out His will. Certainly, the O.T. Bible Stories should teach us this.
His will be done
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Ephesians 2:10
Again, is not our perspective to believe ..... "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)
Was not Judas called according to the Father's purpose, he may not have loved God the way we view it, but he did without even knowing it by carrying out the Father's purpose in him.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 09:02:27 PM
My :2c:
and that is also my :2c:
:iagree: also although I put a great deal of stress on the phrase in this realm. I don't really imagine God is dishonouring anyway at all that's just how we see it.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 10:57:10 PM
Maybe Judas missed the final step he was supposed to play out, but didn't.......to ask Jesus for forgiveness.
Perhaps guilt, prompted by the evil one, or his personal demons, got the better of him.
Again, my :2c:
D.
Wouldn't that undermine the 'field of blood' prophecy? I don't believe there's any 'supposed' here other than what happened, God's sovereignty cannot be usurped. Even if we can see that, ideally, there are better things such as what you have suggested that he could have done.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 05, 2016, 11:49:52 PM
Well, of course, if we are Christian Universalists, we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.
I just don't know if that happened on this side, or if it had to wait until Judas got to the other side.
Of course, the sooner the better, seems to me. :gsmile:
D.
I have to imagine the other side, I think if it had happened on this side he wouldn't have killed himself.
Quote from: marie glen on March 06, 2016, 12:46:45 AM
The direction of this thread has reminded me of the idea that the role of each and every person, even despots, that their role will in the end have been perfect.. As with the potential of possible evil being pretty much endless, and our Father, i think is teaching and demonstrating to all that very thing- someone had to play the roles of despots.. I do think their repentence will be more heart wrenching but that too 'has' to be acted out.. in thisHis "suffering all nations to walk their own ways" Acts 16:14 ..it's why I could never believe in an overly harsh afterlife, or rather judgment day for most since it is all God's choosing.. :smile:
:iagree: although I suspect everyone's ideas of overly harsh may be quite variable.
Quote from: lastpost on March 06, 2016, 01:11:04 PM
Quote
we know that Judas is or will be reconciled to God.
We have different ideas about how that happens.
I understand that one who has darkened or blacknened their soul-body through what amounts to selfishness in varying degrees, can only take so much Light in a state of disembodiment due to the pain it causes, and should Jesus have appeared to Judas who had gone "to his own place" in His full Divine Presence without masking His Light somewhat, it would have horrified Judas.
Then one needs to consider the pain of treachery that Judas would be carrying around with him now knowing the truth, and even though the loving Saviour pours and pours His cleansing Love upon His fallen children, for Judas, about two thousand years ago, that Love would also have been a painful reminder of his act and the baser desires he would have had in his make-up to allow entry and possession of an wicked spirit, in my opinion.
But that was a long time ago, as we see it, and today I believe that Judas is in the position to know and understand the position and feelings of others who have betrayed their higher selves in the worst manner and is a powerful tool for God's use in aiding others.
Again, just the way I see it, in short.
Despite my former post on this I believe Judas much have felt a degree of the above in his Earthly lifetime or he, also, would not have killed himself.
I suspect that the statement suggesting Jesus showing His full Divine Presence while simultaneously masking some of His Light may present an unworkable contradiction. But I also suspect you may be aware of that.
Quote from: lastpost on March 06, 2016, 11:39:32 PM
Yes, EW, I realise how this must be seen this way and appreciate the wider boundaries.
Quote
It will all come out in the wash.
And for some the wash cycle must be a long time, in my opinion.
I do not see this as a literal event, as if someone spent their whole life with a completely wicked and debased character and now they are presented with a choice to bend the knee. I rather think this is a short sentence describing a long process over time.
I believe one should be wary as to the categorisation into confined terms of the Holy Spirit and what is and is not possible. I envisage, if you will, the light on the horizon is a little brighter than it was, and when it arrives the Holy Spirit will be looking for selfless instruments who have made the complete surrender in order that the children of God may become mature sons and daughters, so that sleeping slumbering humanity may awaken to the reality of a reckoning, a consequence to its existence. It will be according to God's Will, it will be effective to humanity because humanity will grasp the meaning behind it. Then the Holy Spirit will grow even more in power and in effect and all of humanity will be drawn to the Christ, and will be seen by all bar a few doubters and scoffers.
In general, that's the gist of it for me.
Err, how can the Holy Spirit grow in power? The Holy Spirit is God isn't He? How can God grow in power?
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 04:25:16 AM
about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile: I believe this happened to Ephesus leader of the gnostic beliefs of matter is the evil, both before conversion and then later, making their first love fade..
So true. Although there really are a surprisingly large number of places it would seem to me illogical to take what the Bible says literally. Just because understanding which is which is hard doesn't mean you should accept it's almost all one of the othr or try to discern which is which. Parables aren't just to hide things from the Pharisees, you know?
Eaglesway said ,
Quote
I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.(Acts 20:27-30)
At the source of all heresy is an attempt to draw disciples unto the messenger rather than Christ. This is the essence of the wolves in sheeps clothing.
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:13-18
Amen ,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these things brothers John and Ross ,
I know I am a baby in the Spirit because , the Lord has never allowed me to read other men's writings , it is as if a veil is placed over them , honestly , I have tried though and always been left with uncertainty and doubts .
It is true everyone is given their portion of the Lord and what roles they are purposed in , No power is given to anyone unless given from Above .
and do not judge no one , because it belongs to God knowing all our hearts and reasons for doing what we all do and act on them . .
From the beginning we are told /warned not to worship the sun and the moon and the stars of heaven and can be driven to do so , if our faith is tested and fail the tests of time we have seen from the beginning the examples in the WORD OF GOD and the cutting off for unbelief , the lack of faith being tested in those whom feared being an oxymoron .
But are told to worship God in spirit and in truth ONLY made clear in the "gospel good news " by Jesus Christ testimony and witness .
It goes way beyond [astrology] it is found in 6 of the 7 churches of Revelation the only one showing itself approved is the Philadelphia/ brotherly love church . For me it is Paul's writing that makes me wonder if the race is these 7 stars [messengers ] Hills rulers , angels in the LORD JESUS CHRIST holding back and in and though His own right hand of power that is judging with" reward and removing " the light , candlestick , Light and the other sufferings and causes and testing of faith .
When I think of those stars of heaven , messengers given the Light of Christ anointing in them and they are risen and shine giving their light as to the glory of God into a dark place , spoken about by the Psalms and other called out prophets with that "spirit of prophecy as the working of God in their time and place , being of also apart of the all, as included in Gods master plan
Just as the stars of heaven in Abraham's seed of faith , Matt 22 being the Living God ...31"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32
'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." 33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
God promised in this covenant that His seed will be as , the stars of heaven and the sands of the sea shores .
I have considered both types serve Him , but the sands of the sea shores being the dead seas and rivers of blood etc , are tiny little stones with no light in them and are tossed around by the waters and being many voices as unstable as water [ faith is not made perfect in hope and love [Jude]
I have considered Jesus saying and I saw satan fall like lightning as messengers/angels of light and having their "light put out ' the light of darkness , how great is that darkness [ believe the lie !? ] ' or candlestick removed fall from that grace of God into the earth and dead sea of the masses because these were destroying the works of satan as labourers of the Lord of harvest ...
Quotehttps://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10
I LOVE HOW in Luke 10 the great Light commission sent by the Lord to tear down them strongholds by the 72 sent whose names are written in Heaven and no harm would come to them because they are in the right hand of power the Lord Jesus Christ and nothing can harm them , not even death .
A third of the stars swept away by the dragons tail of lies in Rev 12 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads
were seven diadems. 4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth . And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that
when she gave birth he might devour her child.
5And she gave birth to a son,
a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne....
I see Jesus is the first of His kind and than those whom would also come though Him that hold to the testimony of Jesus. which is the Spirit of prophecy , or the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE destroying the works of satan holding captives in death as the 72 are called to do in Luke 10 ....
The third of the stars being those Babylon spirits of pride any scribe Pharisee and hypocrite that lost their place of authority and was rebuked by the Lord Jesus Christ whom was holding the light/ truth / knowledge of God unlawfully as the light of darkness and making them either ashamed , offended or angry and put on the spot / mark , as burning out and falling from grace , falling short .
Just the thought of being able to cast out fear and the torment that goes along with the stinging tails of the liars /false holding death as a unlawful thing
Brings great joy in the Lord knowing He loves us all and that love will be spread to the ends of the earth as a witness against all evil doing .
my :2c: yes savage wolves..all men are sheep..all men are saved and receive free gift of righteousness and He shall take away
all the their sins[see Jesus seperate the people as a sheep from a goat[scapegoat] yet some men want to throw the sheep into LOF.
casting out demons=Jesus seperating men/sheep from sin[azazel scapegoats=sin is a demon.
we don't cast out the sheep with demons[sin] into the LOF prepared for stan and his demons. Jesus the great shepherd will seperate
them. I am a goat shepherdess..I am instructed to graze my flock of goats near the shepherd tents where there is highest light
..there Jesus shall seperate them from their sin and they are saved from the wicked one.
the man of sin /man of lawlessness shall be revealed..and sin is a demon.
certain men have raised up/slipped in unawares[man of sin] and encompassed the righteous..therefore sound judgement
does not go forth.
we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..and we don't throw men in the LOF with the demons that have been possessing them.
Jesus doesn't like that!
the goat shepherdess has[SOS 4;2] teeth like a flock of sheep that are 'even shorn" which come up from the washing......
none of them are barren..everyone of them bear twins.
shorn= to remove by cutting or clipping[using a sharp instrument/two edged device] this helps remove the 'wool over their eyes"
so they can see!
term[pull wool over ones eyes- originated from judges wearing these monstrous wigs on their heads[can ye say wolves in sheeps clothing?]
Quote
And for some the wash cycle must be a long time, in my opinion.
I do not see this as a literal event, as if someone spent their whole life with a completely wicked and debased character and now they are presented with a choice to bend the knee. I rather think this is a short sentence describing a long process over time.
I believe one should be wary as to the categorisation into confined terms of the Holy Spirit and what is and is not possible. I envisage, if you will, the light on the horizon is a little brighter than it was, and when it arrives the Holy Spirit will be looking for selfless instruments who have made the complete surrender in order that the children of God may become mature sons and daughters, so that sleeping slumbering humanity may awaken to the reality of a reckoning, a consequence to its existence. It will be according to God's Will, it will be effective to humanity because humanity will grasp the meaning behind it. Then the Holy Spirit will grow even more in power and in effect and all of humanity will be drawn to the Christ, and will be seen by all bar a few doubters and scoffers.
In general, that's the gist of it for me.
Amen.. and I've been thinking along these lines, too, more and more... i feel like the Lord has kept closed in His scripture (mostly hidden) those days (ages) so briefly mentioned in Revelation chapter 20, but His Spirit opens them.. at the right time.. I've been noticing too in His word how organized He is. In Numbers 10 is the instructions to infant Israel about trumpets.. one trumpet sounding (but not a fanfare) is the calling of the leaders and heads of the tribes.. two trumpet soundings is the call for the whole congregation/nation to assemble at the door to the tent of meeting. I'm thinking as followers of Jesus, now, the elect are being prepared by Him for work and teaching during the millennium (one trumpet sounding).. and during the millennium will be being prepared for ministering (helping) with all those who rise in the 2nd resurrection (two sounds/blows of the trumpet)..? :Chinscratch:
Also in Numbers 10, the people are being instructed (the Lord is telling Moses) (
"and Jesus broke the loaves and gave to His disciples/followers, and they gave to the people" ..."you give them food.." "feed my sheep.." "who is that wise servant who when his master comes will find him so doing..")
was telling Moses how to break camp when they break camp.. the Priests blow the trumpet.. and the tribes at the east pack up.. then another sounding and the tribes at the south pack it up.. etc.. very orderly.. (the tent of meeting, we know, was in the center)
:gsmile:
Quote from: sheila on March 08, 2016, 03:11:52 PM
shorn= to remove by cutting or clipping[using a sharp instrument/two edged device] this helps remove the 'wool over their eyes"
so they can see!
:cheerleader:
Amen! :thumbsup: I didn't know that.. no wonder lambs are hard of seeing and hearing!
Quote from: sheila on March 08, 2016, 03:01:33 PM
my :2c: yes savage wolves..all men are sheep..all men are saved and receive free gift of righteousness and He shall take away
all the their sins[see Jesus seperate the people as a sheep from a goat[scapegoat] yet some men want to throw the sheep into LOF.
casting out demons=Jesus seperating men/sheep from sin[azazel scapegoats=sin is a demon.
we don't cast out the sheep with demons[sin] into the LOF prepared for stan and his demons. Jesus the great shepherd will seperate
them. I am a goat shepherdess..I am instructed to graze my flock of goats near the shepherd tents where there is highest light
..there Jesus shall seperate them from their sin and they are saved from the wicked one.
the man of sin /man of lawlessness shall be revealed..and sin is a demon.
certain men have raised up/slipped in unawares[man of sin] and encompassed the righteous..therefore sound judgement
does not go forth.
we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..and we don't throw men in the LOF with the demons that have been possessing them.
Jesus doesn't like that!
the goat shepherdess has[SOS 4;2] teeth like a flock of sheep that are 'even shorn" which come up from the washing......
none of them are barren..everyone of them bear twins.
:goodpost: :goodpost: :banana:
Quote from: rosered on March 08, 2016, 01:49:03 PM
I LOVE HOW in Luke 10 the great Light commission sent by the Lord to tear down them strongholds by the 72 sent whose names are written in Heaven and no harm would come to them because they are in the right hand of power the Lord Jesus Christ and nothing can harm them , not even death .
A third of the stars swept away by the dragons tail of lies in Rev 12 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
4And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth . And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne....
I see Jesus is the first of His kind and than those whom would also come though Him that hold to the testimony of Jesus. which is the Spirit of prophecy , or the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE destroying the works of satan holding captives in death as the 72 are called to do in Luke 10 ....
...
Just the thought of being able to cast out fear and the torment that goes along with the stinging tails of the liars /false holding death as a unlawful thing
Brings great joy in the Lord knowing He loves us all and that love will be spread to the ends of the earth as a witness against all evil doing .
Amen! Amen!! :2thumbs: :gsmile:
Quote from: sheila on March 08, 2016, 03:01:33 PM
my :2c: yes savage wolves..all men are sheep..all men are saved and receive free gift of righteousness and He shall take away
all the their sins[see Jesus seperate the people as a sheep from a goat[scapegoat] yet some men want to throw the sheep into LOF.
casting out demons=Jesus seperating men/sheep from sin[azazel scapegoats=sin is a demon.
we don't cast out the sheep with demons[sin] into the LOF prepared for stan and his demons. Jesus the great shepherd will seperate
them. I am a goat shepherdess..I am instructed to graze my flock of goats near the shepherd tents where there is highest light
..there Jesus shall seperate them from their sin and they are saved from the wicked one.
the man of sin /man of lawlessness shall be revealed..and sin is a demon.
certain men have raised up/slipped in unawares[man of sin] and encompassed the righteous..therefore sound judgement
does not go forth.
we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater..and we don't throw men in the LOF with the demons that have been possessing them.
Jesus doesn't like that!
the goat shepherdess has[SOS 4;2] teeth like a flock of sheep that are 'even shorn" which come up from the washing......
none of them are barren..everyone of them bear twins.
As I see it- We don't throw anybody anywhere, but whatever the lake of fire and gehenna represent, many people will go through them as a result of the judgment to come.
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' Mt 25
This fire does not destroy the man, it separates the wheat from the chaff. The "wheat"(the person) is gathered. The chaff(carnal man/man of sin/body of this death) is consumed because light is fire to darkness.
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence(in the sight) of the holy angels and
in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever(to ages of ages); and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev 14
"And these will go away into everlasting punishment(aionion correction), but the righteous into eternal life." Mt 25
Sin is not a demon, it is an action or attitude of a person that falls short of the glory of God. God is renewing people into the image of Christ so that they no longer fall short- but are forgiven and transformed. People who perish in rebellion-wicked sinners and predators of all kinds abound in this world, will stand before the face of the one whose eyes are as flames of fire- along with all His saints and angels. Demons who torment people or inspire and empower them to sin will also experiencethis "pyri aionion", along with the devil and any other rebellious principalities.
In all cases fire as a corrective force involves changing the heart, opening the eyes of the heart, breaking the chaff so that separation can begin, rending the veil of darkness death and deception.
"In the beginning the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the waters."
"Let their be light" says God and separation begins, light from darkness.
His eyes were like a flame of fire........ and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength..Rev 1
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
The LoF is about exposure and repentence, not torture, but it
is to be feared.
"Blessed and Holy is the one who partakes in the first resurrection for over Him the second death has no power."
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire(to pyr to aionion-(" the fire the age").
In other words, receive correction now or later :o)
"All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness". heb 12
Even believers will be tested by some measure of fire, but in my opinion this is different experience than that of the wicked and unrepentant in what Revelations refers to as the lake of fire.
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Quote from: joeteekay on March 07, 2016, 05:21:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 07, 2016, 05:04:41 AM
Quote from: marie glen on March 07, 2016, 04:25:16 AM
about universalism.. Though I agree there are many more in the churches than is realized, I think perhaps universalism fell away from the word of God (Thy word is truth). I think this is a temptation when not realizing the 'fault' isn't with God's Word but in a very few mistranslations.. So often I hear or see the idea that there's something wrong with taking God's word as literal.. And then, where do you draw the line between what is literal and what isn't? (Of course parables are similes.) And as human if we don't understand something we try to invent answers, often putting God's word into twists and turns hard to follow or downright senseless.. Because we think God's word is somehow wrong instead of one or two mistranslations of words, the temptation is to be seduced away from His Word/s.. I remember the Unitarian programs which aired on Sunday's.. Don't remember hearing God's word at all.. Once it falls into human thought and theories, etc, I believe not only does it lose all power, but is likely to fade away.. and is merely human thoughts and theories.. rags at best, as compared to the incomparable richness of God's word :smile:
I agree. Ken Vincent's article was interesting, and generally seems on track/informative etc. to me. I will mention, he is a unitarian universalist (generalizing, "anything/any belief [or nothing] goes"). That's one reason Gary has made sure to distinguish between Tentmaker as a Christian/Biblical UR, vs. other forms of universalism, many of which don't even suggest a belief or personal faith in Jesus Christ.
I agree.
I dislike the word Universalist. To most people it conveys some ideology in variance to what the Bible teaches. It is true that the word Universalism is not found in the Bible. The word brings to peoples minds a kind of new age thinking or an idea that the work of Christ is somehow diminished. That also is unfortunate. So I believe that Universalism is an inappropriate word when talking about God's plan for mankind. Simply put: God through Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world. All will be saved. That is the simple truth that ultimately all will be saved and God will be ALL in all.
Why should we let other people ruin our word use through its misuse. Obviously we don't let the ruin the Word of God of God by misuse, do we? That we are trying to oppose.
Quote from: jugghead on March 07, 2016, 06:54:52 PM
God is:
Love of Wisdom AND Wisdom of Love ..... Love of Wisdom rules WITH Wisdom of Love ..... they rule together as One (equals)
Whereas in men:
love of wisdom rules OVER wisdom of love ..... which causes the division between the two
Oh, very nice and appropriately true and wise.
Quote from: rosered on March 07, 2016, 06:58:02 PM
Oh Shelia , you said it ,
It is the Holy Spirit as teacher and comforter after the lessons learned by testing our faith
to master and rule over the sin in our bodies , as it is dead to sin , but life in the Spirit is our hope this is why faith without works / Holy Spirit power working though us is dead !!! oh my gave a flood of many other things too , such as the they cannot fast when the bridegroom is present , the stones [hearts ]would cry out
I was looking at fasting and it was to do with the power of faith and hope in the Spirit making alive the Word of God and powerful and moving and the bonding or union of Love that death cannot separate
http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2902&t=KJV&page=2 (http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2902&t=KJV&page=2) wow !! :HeartThrob:
Abstaining from foods is eating of the tree of knowlege of good and evil!!! and keeping silent as the mouth is shut ... shutting the door and praying in secret
This is what Jesus done in the wilderness 40 days and nights when tempted of the devil being sent by the Holy Spirit right after the Jordan , descent baptism as the was Pleased fulfilling righteousness under the law / Jordan river ....
He only used the WORD OF GOD against satan to rebuke him so he had to flee from His presence perfecting faith with the works of the law though the Holy Spirit of love and deny the temptation to exalt Himself above others , by turning stones to bread or given power over the cities or throw Himself down to tempt the Father , but become a servant to all though He be the Only begotten , one of His kind , Son of God .
Jesus was about equality and loving all the same , helping the lesser and putting the more equipped to help out more , sharing and caring in that same Love of God upon all
We saw Peter needing help of Jesus and than when he was converted "turned around " to help feed the sheep because He loved Jesus , and Jesus loved him first when he was so needy and sinner saved by grace .. Love works both ways
:clapping: Yey, hooray!
Quote from: eaglesway on March 07, 2016, 09:13:37 PM
I think God knows, from His perspective, what we are or are not capable of, from His perspective. We, if we are wise seek His face and endeavor to abide in Him, so that we can grow with the growth that comes from God through grace.
I believe that it is made simple for exactly that reason- because we do not have the perspective from which to figure everything out. "Abide in me"....."Watch and Pray"....."Walk in the Spirit"
Better to trust that He loves us, or he wouldnt have sent his son for us. He forgives us, or He wouldnt have hung on that cross for us. he understands our weakness, or he couldnt be that priest, ever making intercession for us in the presence of God.
This is wonderfully clear and truthful. Maybe you could put it somewhere more prominent.
Quote from: rosered on March 07, 2016, 09:56:21 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on March 07, 2016, 09:13:37 PM
I think God knows, from His perspective, what we are or are not capable of, from His perspective. We, if we are wise seek His face and endeavor to abide in Him, so that we can grow with the growth that comes from God through grace.
I believe that it is made simple for exactly that reason- because we do not have the perspective from which to figure everything out. "Abide in me"....."Watch and Pray"....."Walk in the Spirit"
Better to trust that He loves us, or he wouldnt have sent his son for us. He forgives us, or He wouldnt have hung on that cross for us. he understands our weakness, or he couldnt be that priest, ever making intercession for us in the presence of God.
Yes ,, it took a while to write and am poor in writing skills , thanks bro for saying something in case I was not able too.
:HeartThrob: you are so right it is waiting on the Lord and clinging to Him , He is our protection and our help in the hour of need .
Thank you for the opportunity to explain more CST , God bless you and all
Thanks, God bless you too. And everyone else. :dsunny:
Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
The gathering together of all things into one in Christ.
One of the main ways that the gospel of Jesus that UR folks believe gets seduced into things like unitarian universalism is the desire to eliminate the judgment and correction of God.
Anybody who thinks that everyone will get a free pass at the great White Throne is missing or ignoring or corrupting as much scripture as any "hellist" is, imo.
"Some save with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh".
I believe mercy triumphs over judgment, but judgment must be manifest in order to be triumphed over. For some this is displeasing, and their displeasure leads them to creating an alternate version of the gospel that is watered down and has no salt in it. :2c:
Quote from: Ross on March 08, 2016, 02:27:11 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2016, 12:16:56 AM
when that verse is read in the light if 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and 2 Cor 5;1-5 and Eph 1:9,10 it becomes so clear that I believe, from the tone of paul and John's writing, that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it. It was a part of the foundation doctrines they taught (see hebrews 6:1-3), it was the basic fabric of the doctrines of "resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb 6:2) and was considered "elementary" "foundational" and "pure milk".
:2c:
" that they proclaimed the ultimate salvation of all routinely and assumed that everyone reading their epistles already understood it."
Indeed the clarity of why we are here was taught among the Jews. They were all taught the old testament by rote; there lifestyle fully included the remembrance of scriptures. Peter, although only a fisherman, knew every prophecy and history that had been recorded thus far.
They still know and learn the O.T The Pharisees hid there deception about there incident with Christ from the people.
Zecharaiah speaks how the Jews will wail when there eyes are opened.
I recall being in many tears when Christ was revealed correctly- how much He has actually suffered for us and done for us is incredible.
His actual depth of being able to identify with EVERY THING we go through because He was actually like us made more sense than the teaching of the church which claimed He was like us, yet overlooked things like in Isaiah 53 which describes how He will be detested and looked down upon by the Jews when He first appears.
I.M.O if we look at this age as being the only part of the plan before heaven or hell, then this all becomes a vague, pointless exercise.
When the purpose of right from wrong is linked to a system which works in progressive stages of development that involves every single person in the picture, having different roles to play, each learning at their own pace, with ONE teacher instead of many; then the precision to detail, the price actually paid for us all, makes sense for me.
The inhuman God becomes a master Who knows everything works together; each at it's own rate; till ALL are in the kingdom where true equality is through the one point of entry- Christ. He will wipe away EVERY tear.
When things make sense the reasoning releases the guilt, depression, inadequacy, failure and nails them all to the cross.
His love cannot be kept away from us by anything- death, nor life, nor any other thing can keep us from the love of God in Jesus Christ His son.
:happyclap: Hooray, yippee
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2016, 02:46:36 AM
:thumbsup:
Quote
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3:13-18
That would be impartial wouldn't it? Or have I over reached?
Quote from: Ross on March 08, 2016, 03:27:28 AM
Amen!! :thumbsup:
The gentleness is indeed awesome.
Just thinking of a little illustration; When I gave my son a bike I was aware there would be mistakes, falls, loss of skin, a little pain here and there, as he was learning to ride. He learnt from those mistakes and now they are rare, if at all. If I had not given him the bike he would not have learnt. Does that mean I do not love him? I think not. However there is so much to learn in the process.
And that is only a minute part of the whole process.
Bash him to bits to correct him and there would be constant fear and a sense of inadequacy or failing. Correcting him by pointing out what has happened and why, doing that in a gentle manner, made him listen. Still made mistakes, just does not live in fear while learning.
So Again, Amen!
:smile: Amen
sin is a demon..I met him...you will too..it is the work of the Holy spirit to convince the world of sin..and you will be convinced!!!
I am not doing anything out of bitter envy or self-seeking..I am telling all you this for your own good out of love.
the Court has sit and it is time for the saints to inherit the kingdom..the man of sin will first be revealed/removed..the court letters are sent
out[the little scroll that taste like honey but makes your belly bitter]. Go to the Best Home/goodnewsinc..............get prepared........
it is the DAY OF THE LORD and the man of sin is being revealed and all the judgements and the hour of trial..it's all going down.!
I BEG YOU TO!!!! I entreat you with tears!!!!!!!.the watchers of the wall will remove your cloak/veil!!!!!!!!
it comes in upon a peaceful unsuspecting people dwelling without wall[He will take back His hedge from around you and you shall
see what has been restrained] :HeartThrob: yes He loves you..yes He saves all men and only satan and demons are destroyed
"it's a frightening thing to fall into the hands of the living God"! -- this is so very true.. and part of that, i think, occurs at Jesus' return.. the angels gather the sheep, but the goats are gathered to armageddon which, i believe, becomes a lake of fire (literal) due to, i think, [1] all that oil and [2] man's splitting of the atom.. One of Yahweh's paradoxes.. HE judges, yet what is experienced in large part is the result of one's own doings.. individual and collective..
I also believe we all were salted with fire.. and still are.. tho likely not as intense and as needed as at first.. (unless like sheep we wander off somewhere... then the shepherd will seek to bring us back and will correct us, He being high priest and knowing how to do so in each case). And of course, it's possible to be saved, but so as by fire (trial, calamity) and our works burned up (because they weren't His works).
I think Israel thought of Yahweh's judgment as fiery destruction, but earthly, and occurring during this lifetime.. I think there has to be a lake of fire in the age (day) of judgment and thereabouts.. (or always?) not as a place but as an element, and as EW has said, as a metaphor for being salted with fire (or that's how I remember it anyway, sorry if it's not very accurate! :doh: )
the cleansing, the washing.. the tears.. which cleanse the heart.. Sometimes I just can't imAgine.. the heart wrenching that would occur if one has mistreated lots of people.. destroyed families.. harmed children.. people starving, people hurt.. living destitute.. oppressed, and in fear.. imagine seeing all the faces of those you had injured or even caused their death..
..most of us believers, i think, have our 'little' horrors, so to speak.. it's all the same thing - horror. Any little speck of it is death and the process of death and dissolution/decay.. the disease of the heart and mind.. (soul) ..that believers have repented and burned with shame over.. and cried bitter hot tears.. or struggled with God.. our own bitterness of the carnal/imperfect/lacking nature (which i think the demons come and fan the flames of.. kick a person when they're down.. have we all shook our fist at God in some way, at some time..?
How merciful and kind He is.
I think the biggest example of fiery judgment is described (by symbols, etc) in the book of revelation.. when mankind's towers built on sand come toppling down... hail of great size/debris? .."when they may see the smoke of her burning" rev 18:9.. all history gathered into one and culminating in the epic story and Yahweh's illustration to all in heaven and earth, what is good (life) from what is evil (non-life), so that all will fully understand that to wander from Him in any tiny way, can onLy ever end in self destruction.. He is, surely? life, and perfection.. and imperfect is the opposite of life. He built the rescue in from the foundation.. (how blessed we are to know, the rescue of all! :gsmile: He is totally able.)
:HeartThrob: :cloud9:
to receive His judgement and atonement..everyone needs to consider the atonement process in the law covenant..that is patterned
[a shadow]after the heavenly. the last steps are..to take all the people's sin...and place them on Azazel's goats head..then a fit
man leads them off never to enter the Holy city. that is what this is all about. and this is what Jesus and Father are doing now. :girlheart:
Quote from: sheila on March 08, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
sin is a demon..I met him...you will too..it is the work of the Holy spirit to convince the world of sin..and you will be convinced!!!
I am not doing anything out of bitter envy or self-seeking..I am telling all you this for your own good out of love.
the Court has sit and it is time for the saints to inherit the kingdom..the man of sin will first be revealed/removed..the court letters are sent
out[the little scroll that taste like honey but makes your belly bitter]. Go to the Best Home/goodnewsinc..............get prepared........
it is the DAY OF THE LORD and the man of sin is being revealed and all the judgements and the hour of trial..it's all going down.!
I BEG YOU TO!!!! I entreat you with tears!!!!!!!.the watchers of the wall will remove your cloak/veil!!!!!!!!
it comes in upon a peaceful unsuspecting people dwelling without wall[He will take back His hedge from around you and you shall
see what has been restrained] :HeartThrob: yes He loves you..yes He saves all men and only satan and demons are destroyed
I do not believe any sentient being is destroyed. Whatever you have seen and whatever your interpretation of that vision is, so be it.... it is not for me to judge. However I still disagree with the statement that sin is a demon. I also disagree that Satan and demons will be destroyed. I believe every adversary will be subjected and drawn into life.
This is a forum for discussion. I don't have a problem with prophetic proclamations as long as they don't exceed the conversation being held or claim the authority of visions over the authority of the word.
I am not necessarly saying you are doing that- but maybe you are, I dont always get your mode of communication :o).
I am certainly not accusing you of doing anything out of vain-glory either, but I do disagree with your conclusion.
Always we must watch and pray lest we enter into temptation. Always we should agree with our adversary while we are on the way to the judge, lest the judge deliver us to the bailiff and he delivers us to the jailer.
These things are always true.
art thou wiser than Daniel? is nothing hidden from thee? this is in the 'word' and noted as the mystery of iniquity that is to be revealed
before His return.It is a revelation of His..that has left me shaken and trembling. the very root of iniquity/leviathan spiritual negative
and yet He has full control of it...and uses it to accomplish His purposes.Nothing hidden will not be revealed.It is good to recognize
the word of scripture that addresses such.
Personally,I would rather have learned about it from the otherside............that's all I will speak about it on the forum.........but
He will testify about it..and reveal it unto all..each in their order.
Quote from: sheila on March 08, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
sin is a demon..I met him...you will too..it is the work of the Holy spirit to convince the world of sin..and you will be convinced!!!
I am not doing anything out of bitter envy or self-seeking..I am telling all you this for your own good out of love.
the Court has sit and it is time for the saints to inherit the kingdom..the man of sin will first be revealed/removed..the court letters are sent
out[the little scroll that taste like honey but makes your belly bitter]. Go to the Best Home/goodnewsinc..............get prepared........
it is the DAY OF THE LORD and the man of sin is being revealed and all the judgements and the hour of trial..it's all going down.!
I BEG YOU TO!!!! I entreat you with tears!!!!!!!.the watchers of the wall will remove your cloak/veil!!!!!!!!
it comes in upon a peaceful unsuspecting people dwelling without wall[He will take back His hedge from around you and you shall
see what has been restrained] :HeartThrob: yes He loves you..yes He saves all men and only satan and demons are destroyed
I'm kind of on the same page as Eaglesway here with certain qualifications. What I think is very important first and foremost is not to dismiss your experiences. They are your experiences and they affect how you think about things and relate to things and through God's sovereignty there serve needs you have in your life. I believe this, I even believe this when people have experiences we know for certain were caused by illness or hallucinogens.
Nevertheless, they are your experiences and they impart lesson to you but nowhere in the Bible does it seem that sin is called a demon and given that there are demons mentioned in the Bible that seems odd. The closest the Bible comes to calling sin a demon, as I can recall, is in Genesis 4 when God tells Cain, who's countenance has fallen, "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; it's desire is for you, but you must master it." (Gen 4:7) If favour of your position is that this monstrofication of sin is the first appearance of the word in scripture although I think it may also worth noting that Cain is instructed to master sin, whatever it may be, not to destroy or expel it.
But the fact is, if sin is meant to be seen as a specific demon in its own right why isn't it shown as being destroyed in the Revelation, are we meant to understand one of those many creatures as sin even when they are not identified as such.
Actually, unlike EW, I don't believe in Satan and I don't believe in demons and I'm actually sure on angels though I'm more inclined to them than other spiritual beings.
Saying why I don't believe in the Devil or Demons is, I think, beyond the scope of this thread, but I think it sufficient to say that I perceive a few logical difficulties with the concept.
Quote from: marie glen on March 08, 2016, 09:56:54 PM
"it's a frightening thing to fall into the hands of the living God"! -- this is so very true.. and part of that, i think, occurs at Jesus' return.. the angels gather the sheep, but the goats are gathered to armageddon which, i believe, becomes a lake of fire (literal) due to, i think, [1] all that oil and [2] man's splitting of the atom.. One of Yahweh's paradoxes.. HE judges, yet what is experienced in large part is the result of one's own doings.. individual and collective..
I also believe we all were salted with fire.. and still are.. tho likely not as intense and as needed as at first.. (unless like sheep we wander off somewhere... then the shepherd will seek to bring us back and will correct us, He being high priest and knowing how to do so in each case). And of course, it's possible to be saved, but so as by fire (trial, calamity) and our works burned up (because they weren't His works).
I think Israel thought of Yahweh's judgment as fiery destruction, but earthly, and occurring during this lifetime.. I think there has to be a lake of fire in the age (day) of judgment and thereabouts.. (or always?) not as a place but as an element, and as EW has said, as a metaphor for being salted with fire (or that's how I remember it anyway, sorry if it's not very accurate! :doh: )
the cleansing, the washing.. the tears.. which cleanse the heart.. Sometimes I just can't imAgine.. the heart wrenching that would occur if one has mistreated lots of people.. destroyed families.. harmed children.. people starving, people hurt.. living destitute.. oppressed, and in fear.. imagine seeing all the faces of those you had injured or even caused their death..
..most of us believers, i think, have our 'little' horrors, so to speak.. it's all the same thing - horror. Any little speck of it is death and the process of death and dissolution/decay.. the disease of the heart and mind.. (soul) ..that believers have repented and burned with shame over.. and cried bitter hot tears.. or struggled with God.. our own bitterness of the carnal/imperfect/lacking nature (which i think the demons come and fan the flames of.. kick a person when they're down.. have we all shook our fist at God in some way, at some time..?
How merciful and kind He is.
I think the biggest example of fiery judgment is described (by symbols, etc) in the book of revelation.. when mankind's towers built on sand come toppling down... hail of great size/debris? .."when they may see the smoke of her burning" rev 18:9.. all history gathered into one and culminating in the epic story and Yahweh's illustration to all in heaven and earth, what is good (life) from what is evil (non-life), so that all will fully understand that to wander from Him in any tiny way, can onLy ever end in self destruction.. He is, surely? life, and perfection.. and imperfect is the opposite of life. He built the rescue in from the foundation.. (how blessed we are to know, the rescue of all! :gsmile: He is totally able.)
:HeartThrob: :cloud9:
Ah, thanks, Marie. I was particularly interested in the 'little horrors' bit. Jesus, we are told, came, among other things to remove fear of death, 'perfect love casts out fear' seeing as many of us have these 'little horrors' things we fear occurring, things we fear losing, it often seems that He hasn't finished perfecting love in too many people on Earth yet.
I sort of shook, fist at God last night, mainly I'm shaking at the evil Conservative government people here in the UK, wickedly and thoughtlessly voted in at the last election as the continue to bully the poorest and weakest members of our society to help those who need least help and basically are acting against everything I understand God intends for the World and sent Jesus to try to achieve. My anger is mainly at them, but hard not to get confused and angry at God and question why He's allowing this to happen to His people.
Quote from: sheila on March 08, 2016, 11:20:20 PM
to receive His judgement and atonement..everyone needs to consider the atonement process in the law covenant..that is patterned
[a shadow]after the heavenly. the last steps are..to take all the people's sin...and place them on Azazel's goats head..then a fit
man leads them off never to enter the Holy city. that is what this is all about. and this is what Jesus and Father are doing now. :girlheart:
That really, sounds like it could be very right. Except I thought that's kind of what the crucifixion was. well in part anyway, I'm sure the crucifixion and its means are very involved.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 08, 2016, 11:37:32 PM
Quote from: sheila on March 08, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
sin is a demon..I met him...you will too..it is the work of the Holy spirit to convince the world of sin..and you will be convinced!!!
I am not doing anything out of bitter envy or self-seeking..I am telling all you this for your own good out of love.
the Court has sit and it is time for the saints to inherit the kingdom..the man of sin will first be revealed/removed..the court letters are sent
out[the little scroll that taste like honey but makes your belly bitter]. Go to the Best Home/goodnewsinc..............get prepared........
it is the DAY OF THE LORD and the man of sin is being revealed and all the judgements and the hour of trial..it's all going down.!
I BEG YOU TO!!!! I entreat you with tears!!!!!!!.the watchers of the wall will remove your cloak/veil!!!!!!!!
it comes in upon a peaceful unsuspecting people dwelling without wall[He will take back His hedge from around you and you shall
see what has been restrained] :HeartThrob: yes He loves you..yes He saves all men and only satan and demons are destroyed
I do not believe any sentient being is destroyed. Whatever you have seen and whatever your interpretation of that vision is, so be it.... it is not for me to judge. However I still disagree with the statement that sin is a demon. I also disagree that Satan and demons will be destroyed. I believe every adversary will be subjected and drawn into life.
This is a forum for discussion. I don't have a problem with prophetic proclamations as long as they don't exceed the conversation being held or claim the authority of visions over the authority of the word.
I am not necessarly saying you are doing that- but maybe you are, I dont always get your mode of communication :o).
I am certainly not accusing you of doing anything out of vain-glory either, but I do disagree with your conclusion.
Always we must watch and pray lest we enter into temptation. Always we should agree with our adversary while we are on the way to the judge, lest the judge deliver us to the bailiff and he delivers us to the jailer.
These things are always true.
Not believing in demons, and the Devil solves this problem for me. Demons are never presented as having the slightest degree of decency with in them and who is to say they meet the proper criteria of sentience as described. They seem to exist, according to the Bible, to reduce the sentience of living beings.
Quote from: sheila on March 09, 2016, 02:49:11 PM
art thou wiser than Daniel? is nothing hidden from thee? this is in the 'word' and noted as the mystery of iniquity that is to be revealed
before His return.It is a revelation of His..that has left me shaken and trembling. the very root of iniquity/leviathan spiritual negative
and yet He has full control of it...and uses it to accomplish His purposes.Nothing hidden will not be revealed.It is good to recognize
the word of scripture that addresses such.
Personally,I would rather have learned about it from the otherside............that's all I will speak about it on the forum.........but
He will testify about it..and reveal it unto all..each in their order.
No one's saying they're wiser than Daniel or things haven't been hidden from them. But it's possible things have been shown to them too.
what you perceive it as in your present..is what He allows you to. You know it now as the serpent in the garden that deceived.......
the angels on the left that went forth to be a lying spirit,the beast,the leviathan,the prince of this world..the spirit in operation
in the sons of disobedience,the wicked one from which we are delivered. the vanity we are subjected to in hope..that unless
He had left mankind the promised seed..we,too,should have been like.You know it as the evil in the TOKOGAE..as hatred,strife
immorality,adversary. and that is true..it is all these things and more..it is the man of lawlessness,son of perdition,murderer,
the beast that comes up out of the sea and the earth,satn released from the abyss..spiritual death.as the sin in your flesh you must
rule over.
and when He wants to reveal to you more of it/as He knows what lies in the darkness..He will show you...for you must,as He
prepares you to receive it,show it unto you. That you may understand His judgement and theirs..and the LOF..and the New Heavens
and new creation. That you may judge angels..and know His judgements. For you must know it's nature..and His creation and
purpose in creating it. and His lifting of us all from it. and when He does..your eyes will be like fire..as well as the waist down as
flaming fire. and you will be in one accord with Him in it. Not that you are not at present..in what He reveals unto you..and it is Him
that will continue to reveal more unto you..as you continue to follow the Holy spirit that shall lead you into all truth.
and though iniquity abound,so much more His great Grace abounds unto the children of men...........
love and grace and mercy be unto the sons of God......
I don't believe in Adam, Eve and the serpent of Eden either although I do retain the possibility of the story referring to some spiritual event in some spiritual realm that effected humans in the physical world which I suppose may be a concession to your thinking. And, yes, sin can take many forms but I just think it's primary form it's thoughts in people's heads. Which, yes, manifest in many different ways to many different people.
My disbelief in the literal reading of the story of Eden isn't whim, leaning towards science of scripture trashing, I feel that I have scriptural reasons for believing so.
In other news I'm no longer cross with God at the moment, :banana: :dsunny: I have realized that God has used the wicked Tyrant Tories and their abuse of the law to attempt to teach me the faults of legalism which I am sure many people here already know but I shall state my 'epiphany' in case it needs correction and I am mistaken.
The law is supposed to serve society, to maintain the status quo, governments use it to enslave society, this is sin, people are taught they must obey the law, they come to believe 'the law must be obeyed'. No! No, no, no! This is idolatry, isn't it? Only God must be obeyed. (Is that too dramatic? I think this point is important.)
Correct where necessary.
well,God can make a believer out of you..and will do so in His time whenever He desires.But at present He meets you in faith hope and love
and these things will remain.He meets the prodigal when He is yet a long way off..He meets us as a candle in great darkness....
He meets us as a daystar rising in our hearts...and receives us home to dwell in inapproachable light in His presence.
He does all these things for His creation...and makes man into His image.
who can question Him of the works of His hands?
And the same would be true for you on the things you may be mistaken on.
Actually though since you posted this though I've been around the board and seen many of your posts and you seem really wise and kind.
So I really want to disagree with you as respectfully as possible while I have to disagree with you at all.
Quote from: CST on March 09, 2016, 03:37:47 PM
I sort of shook, fist at God last night, mainly I'm shaking at the evil Conservative government people here in the UK, wickedly and thoughtlessly voted in at the last election as the continue to bully the poorest and weakest members of our society to help those who need least help and basically are acting against everything I understand God intends for the World and sent Jesus to try to achieve. My anger is mainly at them, but hard not to get confused and angry at God and question why He's allowing this to happen to His people.
I think it's likely we've all been there (shaking fist, etc) and it is hard for a while for us to understand.. but i had an experience which changed all that when my son 17 years ago asked me two questions - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"
I wasn't all that satisfied with my answers to him so I prayed for better ones.. and bam! the answers came like bam, bam bam.. :laughing7:
first thing was how God (surely?) is life itself and also perfection.. but when He endowed thinking ability a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about.. because with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices (tho thankfully very limited!).
But to choose anything other than what He does in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, the opposite of God/Life.. hence death and life as we presently know it.. and all sufferings.. yet God being life itself, lives through, suffers and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur! Why would he put himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating robots or an ant farm but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because aLL will fully understand that to wander away from Him cannot be done, for it can only ever 'end' in a self destructive wisp of smoke/apocalypse, the unveiling. For surely(?) 'judgment' day - in the greek - decision ('day') will be an extremely long day of the examination of all things.. all human history - God surely does not waste such an opportunity to really drive home this learning of good from evil (life from death/nonlife)... being deeply engraved upon every heart and mind..
And, God only able to be honest, there was that tree in the original garden..
I believe He endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. and is letting it run its course.. for the most part, and it's an unavoidable lesson and journey... if there's to be thinking ability, that is.. :gsmile: God bless! :Peace2:
This has been an amazing learning thread in Gods judgments
thank you each one for reminding me , I just do not know how to speak to people ... humility as salt of the earth is critical and salted with fire .
GOD is the Father of spirits . and has control over all spirits and the flesh and everything ever created by Him , this none have no doubts about .
Psalm 105:7
He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
Isaiah 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.[all things work together for those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose ] that is the good and bad things of all things
What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness from their error / sin missing the mark ?
These two examples prove , sin , satan adversary was at their hearts door and entered into them causing BETRAYAL of innocent blood in the beginning starting with with Abel, a brother ...
They let sin rule over them taking action of causing bloodshed of innocence & purity of Life causing death , murder and lying against the truth
Judas was called a devil by the Lord Himself when He said one of you is a devil , Jesus choose on purpose to set everything in motion ,, We also know Jesus laid his own life down that he could take it back up again and no one ''took it '' from Him , for those whom do not understand this part , see Judas as evil and lost forever , but Jesus showed us the truth .
John 6 69"We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
So to sum up what lies against the truth is betrayal the opposite of faith and being loyal .
Even Jesus said you will loose heart , stumble , your own faith will fail you , scandalize each other , bear the image of corruption and , treat each other with contempt , will betray one another .. thinking less of each other than lifting one another up when one is stumbling or failing the test when tribulation /judgements comes .a cause of great trouble or suffering.
synonyms: suffering, distress, trouble, misery, wretchedness, unhappiness, sadness, heartache, woe, grief, sorrow, pain, anguish, agony; literary travail
Matt 24 ;10 9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many....
What if being honest with God means you know how weak and dark and poor in Spirit you really are when temptation comes and ask Him for His help in that very hour of trial ?
I do not think Cain nor Judas considered it and to their own hurt and harm and pain as well as causing others suffering for just being good and obedient to God , for their own evil doing .
Quote from: marie glen on March 16, 2016, 04:58:16 PM
Quote from: CST on March 09, 2016, 03:37:47 PM
I sort of shook, fist at God last night, mainly I'm shaking at the evil Conservative government people here in the UK, wickedly and thoughtlessly voted in at the last election as the continue to bully the poorest and weakest members of our society to help those who need least help and basically are acting against everything I understand God intends for the World and sent Jesus to try to achieve. My anger is mainly at them, but hard not to get confused and angry at God and question why He's allowing this to happen to His people.
I think it's likely we've all been there (shaking fist, etc) and it is hard for a while for us to understand.. but i had an experience which changed all that when my son 17 years ago asked me two questions - "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"
I wasn't all that satisfied with my answers to him so I prayed for better ones.. and bam! the answers came like bam, bam bam.. :laughing7:
first thing was how God (surely?) is life itself and also perfection.. but when He endowed thinking ability a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about.. because with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices (tho thankfully very limited!).
But to choose anything other than what He does in thought, word or deed is to be imperfect, the opposite of God/Life.. hence death and life as we presently know it.. and all sufferings.. yet God being life itself, lives through, suffers and experiences all sufferings and indignations which ever occur! Why would he put himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating robots or an ant farm but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because aLL will fully understand that to wander away from Him cannot be done, for it can only ever 'end' in a self destructive wisp of smoke/apocalypse, the unveiling. For surely(?) 'judgment' day - in the greek - decision ('day') will be an extremely long day of the examination of all things.. all human history - God surely does not waste such an opportunity to really drive home this learning of good from evil (life from death/nonlife)... being deeply engraved upon every heart and mind..
And, God only able to be honest, there was that tree in the original garden..
I believe He endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. and is letting it run its course.. for the most part, and it's an unavoidable lesson and journey... if there's to be thinking ability, that is.. :gsmile: God bless! :Peace2:
For clarification, since I think you've used this example from your experience more than once, how do you and your son understand an 'ant farm' in this content.
Now my answer to the first question would involve taken the literalism away from the Garden of Eden story but I'm not clear on what model you're disclaiming here. Are you saying that answers don't have the capacity to make choices or something?
I'm certainly in agreement with you on most all of your logically considered conclusions. Although I have to add the understand that in the absolute sense only God is perfect, anything He creates is going automatically be less than perfect because it is remove from the perfect 'God' model.
However, it can, in theory, be perfect according to what God's intention for it is. So your observation comes into play when the being has the capacity to not act according to that purpose, which I'm assuming would be better and more 'perfect' than only being able to choose what God would have us choose, which to come full circle, I think is what you mean by the ant farm. Is that a correct understanding?
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2016, 06:43:13 PM
This has been an amazing learning thread in Gods judgments
thank you each one for reminding me , I just do not know how to speak to people ... humility as salt of the earth is critical and salted with fire .
GOD is the Father of spirits . and has control over all spirits and the flesh and everything ever created by Him , this none have no doubts about .
Psalm 105:7
He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
Isaiah 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.[all things work together for those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose ] that is the good and bad things of all things
What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness from their error / sin missing the mark ?
These two examples prove , sin , satan adversary was at their hearts door and entered into them causing BETRAYAL of innocent blood in the beginning starting with with Abel, a brother ...
They let sin rule over them taking action of causing bloodshed of innocence & purity of Life causing death , murder and lying against the truth
Judas was called a devil by the Lord Himself when He said one of you is a devil , Jesus choose on purpose to set everything in motion ,, We also know Jesus laid his own life down that he could take it back up again and no one "took it " from Him , for those whom do not understand this part , see Judas as evil and lost forever , but Jesus showed us the truth .
John 6 69"We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
So to sum up what lies against the truth is betrayal the opposite of faith and being loyal .
Even Jesus said you will loose heart , stumble , your own faith will fail you , scandalize each other , bear the image of corruption and , treat each other with contempt , will betray one another .. thinking less of each other than lifting one another up when one is stumbling or failing the test when tribulation /judgements comes .a cause of great trouble or suffering.
synonyms: suffering, distress, trouble, misery, wretchedness, unhappiness, sadness, heartache, woe, grief, sorrow, pain, anguish, agony; literary travail
Matt 24 ;10 9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many....
What if being honest with God means you know how weak and dark and poor in Spirit you really are when temptation comes and ask Him for His help in that very hour of trial ?
I do not think Cain nor Judas considered it and to their own hurt and harm and pain as well as causing others suffering for just being good and obedient to God , for their own evil doing .
I think you speak very well, better than me. I manage to burn bridges without even trying it very upsetting for me. I've cut myself off from lots of people doing or not doing whatever that thing is I should or should not be doing.
You also make many good observations. The only sad note I'd make is on the last one when I suspect that when the time of trial comes people don't turn to God for help as you wisely suggest because superpride rears it's head and they don't even realize they're being tried.
Quote
I think you speak very well, better than me. I manage to burn bridges without even trying it very upsetting for me. I've cut myself off from lots of people doing or not doing whatever that thing is I should or should not be doing.
You also make many good observations. The only sad note I'd make is on the last one when I suspect that when the time of trial comes people don't turn to God for help as you wisely suggest because superpride rears it's head and they don't even realize they're being tried.
I appreciate you you answering CST ,
Thanks for your patience that we all are learning how to speak to one another in love and not force , a little love goes a long ,long way together .
I agree with you , that the man of sin does rear its ugly head , as sin becomes utterly sinful , maybe why the Lord uses the Sword of His mouth to cut it off ..and the breath of His coming burns it to dust and ashes .
Maybe it is the process of ''putting on the mind of Christ '' those beheaded ones that die in the Lord in Rev that no longer use the beastly carnal mind to understand the ways of God ? and given a new name and white robe etc ...
I thought of the scripture that Job sat in dust and ashes Job's Confession
Then Job answered the Lord and said,
"I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,Things too wonderful for me
, which I did not know."'Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.'
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes." . Job 42
Job was sure blessed after God was done showing Himself to Job and satan touching everything in his life[heart] , but not taking his life .. the least you have done to them you have done unto me ..
I do believe this is when Job learned the righteousness of God in his earth /heart , bodies , lives ..
and do not think we humans understand that when the dragons flood of lies covered the earth during the days of Noah and was protected by the ark built at the Lords command , the earth opened its mouth to swallow it all up as a ''help'' to the Woman[church ] of the wilderness , now the earth must be dried up with Holy Spirit and fire to destroy the works of satan , This is why to me the Lord come to send fire on the earth by the Cross in Luke 12 ;49
drying up the great river of Euphrates for those kings of the east to be prepared and so on till all the bowls are poured out , we look and see the outward manifestation of what is really a very spiritual battle within
the old heavens and earth , by making all things new by Him for Him and though Him ..
And now being accused of being ''hyper spiritual'' :sigh: by some and it does not make me mad , but sad , because it is the Lord whom is gathering us up into Himself one by one
Isaiah 27 ...11When its limbs are dry, they are broken off; Women come and make a fire with them,
For they are not a people of discernment, Therefore their Maker will not have compassion on them. And their Creator will not be gracious to them. 12In that day
the LORD will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt,
and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. 13
It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem. Gathering one by one into Himself 1 Thess 4 The Return of the Lord
...
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and
with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are
alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord....
He is drawing all men into Himself , the dead in the Lord come also as to those whom are alive also, being seated with Christ in heavenly places
Eph 2 ;6 Alive with Christ
...5even
when we were dead in our transgressions,
made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come
He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus I do believe this is how we see and hear in the Spirit or not ,,seeing the Lord Jesus Christ as of yet .
Perception verses deception and why some just give up and quit all together :sigh:
God is merciful to everyone in every way possible than mankind finds impossible to believe .... because it has been hidden from their eyes .
Luke 19Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace!
But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43"For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side,...
Jeremiah 13:17
If you do not listen, I will weep in secret because of your pride; my eyes will weep bitterly, overflowing with tears, because the LORD's flock will be taken captive.
Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'
Jesus Christ is all about healing and making whole all that was lost .
Thanks, I like your post there you use the word "we" in places where I know think I should have used the word "we" rather than "they're" but didn't because I was to keen to cleave to the examples you gave as if the likes of we and you and the rest of us here might be somehow different when I suspect we're not.
Calling you hyper spiritual isn't very nice though. People might think that your understanding of scripture and how the world works is off but they should surely just say that. But people love their labels, easier for 'them' to put 'us' into boxes they can warn people off. It's a poor criticism anyway. If you actually are hyper spiritual that could only be a good thing. Fleshy being tend to be those we're taught get things wrong in their heads.
I'm really not sure I'm going to be gathered up in the air by the Lord, I'm not that good. That said I did have an experience was that I would describe as incredibly rapturous except that at the end of it I was still here it seems, on Earth, so either it didn't complete and I was left behind, it was something else entirely, or we've misunderstood exactly what meeting in the air means.
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2016, 03:32:29 PM
Thanks, I like your post there you use the word "we" in places where I know think I should have used the word "we" rather than "they're" but didn't because I was to keen to cleave to the examples you gave as if the likes of we and you and the rest of us here might be somehow different when I suspect we're not.
Calling you hyper spiritual isn't very nice though. People might think that your understanding of scripture and how the world works is off but they should surely just say that. But people love their labels, easier for 'them' to put 'us' into boxes they can warn people off. It's a poor criticism anyway. If you actually are hyper spiritual that could only be a good thing. Fleshy being tend to be those we're taught get things wrong in their heads.
I'm really not sure I'm going to be gathered up in the air by the Lord, I'm not that good. That said I did have an experience was that I would describe as incredibly rapturous except that at the end of it I was still here it seems, on Earth, so either it didn't complete and I was left behind, it was something else entirely, or we've misunderstood exactly what meeting in the air means.
I enjoyed your thought CST , thanks for sharing them ,
I love the examples of the Word of God , We know Johns testimony was taken up in the Spirit on the Lords Day, and that is how we have his testimony and wrote revelation , and he was still a human being and brought right back down into the world , we also have Paul's account of one being the in the Spirit and was taken up to the 3rd heaven and hear things that was unlawful to speak of . we are living epistles and the Word being being fulfilled within us all , just my opinion though .
These things in the Bible make us all wonder what God is doing in us ? We are humans after all, but spiritual beings as well . we walk accordingly as we are led .
My hubby has had 4 dreams in the last two weeks and they ''wake him up '' out of sleep in the night . and what happens to him is what happens to us all .
This is pretty literal to me and well as spiritual in nature .
God loves you and loves all his creation ,, Paul was convinced and so are we .... Romans 8
38For
I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is a pretty powerful conviction when in doubt ...
If I told you , how blessed you are to remember your experience , there have been times when awakened and it was sealed up so fast that my own flesh could not touch it before my feet hit the floor ..
So I go to looking in the scriptures as to ''what was that Lord Jesus ?"" and there it was an answer to those million questions about God . https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+33 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+33)
I do believe the scripture not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing has merit as our own carnal nature wars against the Spirit , and the secret things of God are sealed up till the appointed time when they are to be made known and I do think He is present , where two or 3 are gathered in His name He is in the midst of them and believe we are so much more than just one little ol human being ..
Considering the mad man in the tombs that Jesus healed and made whole and placed him in his ''right mind '' from all the scattering thoughts that tormented that poor creature , this caused great fear to fall on those witnessing it , but was legion because there were many in him .
Mark 5 ...8For He had been saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!" 9And He was asking him, "What is your name?" And he said to Him, "My name is Legion;
for we are many." We whom do take the Word of God seriously , know this is just the tip of the iceberg and just beginning to learn about Gods righteousness in the earth ,and so much more to consider than when we first believed .
Thanking you for the exchange CST , God bless you in all things .
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
For clarification, since I think you've used this example from your experience more than once,
It made a big impact on me.. I usually describe it as having "my socks knocked off.. and they're still knocked off.. even though i was a firm and happy believer previous to this"
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
how do you and your son understand an 'ant farm' in this content.
Yes, it was his wording.. I understand an ant farm to be a colony of ants behind glass for observing.. For my use, robots would be more accurate. The conclusion really, was.. we're not an ant farm (robots) and that's the whole 'problem'! If we want to think of rationality as a problem.. but since it includes (surely?) sooner or later, the ability to make choices.. Paradoxically, it is a 'problem'! Or rather the results are, the results being life as we presently know it.. or rather, the world as we presently know it.
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
Now my answer to the first question would involve taken the literalism away from the Garden of Eden story
I think the Eden story is literal.. I figure why not? :smile: makes more sense than if they were a class of people... all would make a bad choice together at the same time? besides the bible says "all nations came from one man, Adam.."
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
but I'm not clear on what model you're disclaiming here. Are you saying that answers don't have the capacity to make choices or something?
I'm not sure I understand the question.. I'm disclaiming the crazy notion (imo:) that we are like robots or an ant farm.. but that when God endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. that was a Pandora's box.. Yet He is creating rational creatures. And that is why He endowed thinking ability, which an offshoot of is the ability to make choices. I think, therefor I can make decisions and choices.. ..but if God is both life and perfection.. Well, we are imperfect, and the result of "missing the mark" is death/nonlife - translated as "the wages of sin is death".
(note: since God designed it this way, I believe He takes responsibility for it all (imperfection) and saves all, having built the rescue in "from the foundation" (beginning.. in the blueprint/design/this life of instruction,teaching us)
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
I'm certainly in agreement with you on most all of your logically considered conclusions. Although I have to add the understand that in the absolute sense only God is perfect,
:iagree: :iagree: Absolutely!! ..but He does say "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.." but of course we cannot possibly do this until His return and the resurrection / meeting Him in the air at His return when "this mortal must put on immortality and this corrupt/imperfect must put on incorruptibility"
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
anything He creates is going automatically be less than perfect because it is remove from the perfect 'God' model.
..after the creation days He said "behold it's all good" -
all good, to me, would be good with no less than good.. perfect :smile"
I do believe Jesus is the Only straight out from God One.. so to be of the same essence and substance.. and character.. with all other things "created through Jesus" and now being "gathered into Jesus" after like sheep wandering away.. But He is always "First" (pre-eminent; Colossians ch 1:? or 2?)
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
However, it can, in theory, be perfect according to what God's intention for it is. So your observation comes into play when the being has the capacity to not act according to that purpose, which I'm assuming would be better and more 'perfect' than only being able to choose what God would have us choose, which to come full circle, I think is what you mean by the ant farm. Is that a correct understanding?
Yep! I think so! :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2016, 06:43:13 PM
....I just do not know how to speak to people ...
Oh contraire! :laughing7: I disagree! 'proved' by the following rest of your post! (for example) [What we have to say can often be hard to understand.. veil over the eyes and ears.. see through a glass darkly.. and we all can get a little stuck in our ways and it takes a while to be able to hear what someone else might be saying about something.. or my :2c: about it anyway :smile:
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2016, 06:43:13 PM
humility as salt of the earth is critical and salted with fire .
I agree!! I definitely think part of the fruit our gardener Father wants in us is humility.. othersise I think He would make us perfect as soon as we believe.. I know I have plenty of things in life and in myself that work very well to keep me humble! :mblush:
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2016, 06:43:13 PM
GOD is the Father of spirits . and has control over all spirits and the flesh and everything ever created by Him , this none have no doubts about .
Psalm 105:7
He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
:cloud9:
He is so wise.. beyond imagining..
Quote from: rosered on March 16, 2016, 06:43:13 PM
Isaiah 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.[all things work together for those whom love the Lord and are called according to His purpose ] that is the good and bad things of all things
What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness from their error / sin missing the mark ?
These two examples prove , sin , satan adversary was at their hearts door and entered into them causing BETRAYAL of innocent blood in the beginning starting with with Abel, a brother ...
They let sin rule over them taking action of causing bloodshed of innocence & purity of Life causing death , murder and lying against the truth
Judas was called a devil by the Lord Himself when He said one of you is a devil , Jesus choose on purpose to set everything in motion ,, We also know Jesus laid his own life down that he could take it back up again and no one "took it " from Him , for those whom do not understand this part , see Judas as evil and lost forever , but Jesus showed us the truth .
John 6 69"We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
So to sum up what lies against the truth is betrayal the opposite of faith and being loyal .
Even Jesus said you will loose heart , stumble , your own faith will fail you , scandalize each other , bear the image of corruption and , treat each other with contempt , will betray one another .. thinking less of each other than lifting one another up when one is stumbling or failing the test when tribulation /judgements comes .a cause of great trouble or suffering.
synonyms: suffering, distress, trouble, misery, wretchedness, unhappiness, sadness, heartache, woe, grief, sorrow, pain, anguish, agony; literary travail
Matt 24 ;10 9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.…
What if being honest with God means you know how weak and dark and poor in Spirit you really are when temptation comes and ask Him for His help in that very hour of trial ?
I do not think Cain nor Judas considered it and to their own hurt and harm and pain as well as causing others suffering for just being good and obedient to God , for their own evil doing .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree:
"What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness from their error / sin missing the mark ?" - I think that is the whole thing right there; the whole truth about this life.. And is true of all of us. And I think this is
the lesson God is teaching us all. The foundation lesson and truth.
And I think the lesson is both personal and collective, that it is for and about each individual (each one of us) and also is true of the world.. That it's all the same story in every individual's life, all through history, and is the same story of the world.. "Missing the mark" is to crash and burn... be a basket of pieces..
Bless you Rosie!! You aRe perfect! ..we all are, in God's eyes.. any flaws we may have are covered by the love, life and blood of Jesus.. the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, humility, goodness, faithfulness, temperance, moderation... etc..
:girlheart:
p.s. your :HeartThrob: 's often are very artistic.. pretty.. how you place them.. been wanting to tell you that..
Quote"What if Cain and Judas learned righteousness from their error / sin missing the mark ?" - I think that is the whole thing right there; the whole truth about this life.. And is true of all of us. And I think this is the lesson God is teaching us all. The foundation lesson and truth.
And I think the lesson is both personal and collective, that it is for and about each individual (each one of us) and also is true of the world.. That it's all the same story in every individual's life, all through history, and is the same story of the world.. "Missing the mark" is to crash and burn... be a basket of pieces..
Bless you Rosie!! You aRe perfect! ..we all are, in God's eyes.. any flaws we may have are covered by the love, life and blood of Jesus.. the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, humility, goodness, faithfulness, temperance, moderation... etc..
:girlheart:
p.s. your :HeartThrob: 's often are very artistic.. pretty.. how you place them.. been wanting to tell you that..
Oh sis!
I love you to pieces lol ha ha :girlheart:
Love of God kind , that wants nothing but good things for all mankind , not just a few chosen loved ones :winkgrin:
The Lord has blessed us all beyond measure , His patience His goodness and faithfulness and gentleness , peace and joy being His miracles and signs of LIFE working in the times /ages and stages and continual supply though the Lord Jesus Christ :HeartThrob:
A favorite thought as of late , life and death are yours '' all things'' are yours , what an inheritance ! ,'' all things '' also work together whom love the Lord
1Cor 3 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the
Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God,
God will destroy him, for the
temple of God is holy, and
that is what you are.Let
no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish,[ call that carnal mind a fooler and deception is death and an enmity against the Spirit of Life and dwells in us all God is fair that way !]
so that he may become wise. [putting on the mind of Christ that all things can become new and living and pleasing to the Living God ]
For
the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.
For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness";
and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that
they are useless."
So then let no one
boast in men. For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come;
all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. What a wonderful thing to focus on '' we all belong '' to God and not to ourselves that seems to be the foolish thinking that we some how own anything , but is loaned and borrowed from God being slaves to err that we Know Jesus CHRIST DID buy back with His own blood , a purchase and a precious price , that will bear fruit to the Father as it is written and spoken and finally known to all .
Quote from: rosered on March 17, 2016, 08:54:18 PM
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2016, 03:32:29 PM
Thanks, I like your post there you use the word "we" in places where I know think I should have used the word "we" rather than "they're" but didn't because I was to keen to cleave to the examples you gave as if the likes of we and you and the rest of us here might be somehow different when I suspect we're not.
Calling you hyper spiritual isn't very nice though. People might think that your understanding of scripture and how the world works is off but they should surely just say that. But people love their labels, easier for 'them' to put 'us' into boxes they can warn people off. It's a poor criticism anyway. If you actually are hyper spiritual that could only be a good thing. Fleshy being tend to be those we're taught get things wrong in their heads.
I'm really not sure I'm going to be gathered up in the air by the Lord, I'm not that good. That said I did have an experience was that I would describe as incredibly rapturous except that at the end of it I was still here it seems, on Earth, so either it didn't complete and I was left behind, it was something else entirely, or we've misunderstood exactly what meeting in the air means.
I enjoyed your thought CST , thanks for sharing them ,
I love the examples of the Word of God , We know Johns testimony was taken up in the Spirit on the Lords Day, and that is how we have his testimony and wrote revelation , and he was still a human being and brought right back down into the world , we also have Paul's account of one being the in the Spirit and was taken up to the 3rd heaven and hear things that was unlawful to speak of . we are living epistles and the Word being being fulfilled within us all , just my opinion though .
These things in the Bible make us all wonder what God is doing in us ? We are humans after all, but spiritual beings as well . we walk accordingly as we are led .
My hubby has had 4 dreams in the last two weeks and they "wake him up " out of sleep in the night . and what happens to him is what happens to us all .
This is pretty literal to me and well as spiritual in nature .
God loves you and loves all his creation ,, Paul was convinced and so are we .... Romans 8
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is a pretty powerful conviction when in doubt ...
If I told you , how blessed you are to remember your experience , there have been times when awakened and it was sealed up so fast that my own flesh could not touch it before my feet hit the floor ..
So I go to looking in the scriptures as to "what was that Lord Jesus ?"" and there it was an answer to those million questions about God . https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+33 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+33)
I do believe the scripture not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing has merit as our own carnal nature wars against the Spirit , and the secret things of God are sealed up till the appointed time when they are to be made known and I do think He is present , where two or 3 are gathered in His name He is in the midst of them and believe we are so much more than just one little ol human being ..
Considering the mad man in the tombs that Jesus healed and made whole and placed him in his "right mind " from all the scattering thoughts that tormented that poor creature , this caused great fear to fall on those witnessing it , but was legion because there were many in him .
Mark 5 ...8For He had been saying to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!" 9And He was asking him, "What is your name?" And he said to Him, "My name is Legion; for we are many."
We whom do take the Word of God seriously , know this is just the tip of the iceberg and just beginning to learn about Gods righteousness in the earth ,and so much more to consider than when we first believed .
Thanking you for the exchange CST , God bless you in all things .
God bless you too, Rose.
I'd say my 'vision' was a lot less involved than John's although it was a representation of the ending so it was probably the most important bit (I don't want to divide the weight of the test o the Bible that much).
At the time I just thought I got 'left behind' owing to not been ceremoniously clean at the time.
You have probably quoted the most encouraging line of scripture going, although ETers and EDers tend to reduce the weight of the word 'we' in that quote. And given what the Gospel actually is there should probably loads of encouraging linesin their and we shouldn't have to try as hard as some of us seem to have searched to find them.
Thank you also, God bless you, again!
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2016, 06:27:26 AM
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
For clarification, since I think you've used this example from your experience more than once,
It made a big impact on me.. I usually describe it as having "my socks knocked off.. and they're still knocked off.. even though i was a firm and happy believer previous to this"
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
how do you and your son understand an 'ant farm' in this content.
Yes, it was his wording.. I understand an ant farm to be a colony of ants behind glass for observing.. For my use, robots would be more accurate. The conclusion really, was.. we're not an ant farm (robots) and that's the whole 'problem'! If we want to think of rationality as a problem.. but since it includes (surely?) sooner or later, the ability to make choices.. Paradoxically, it is a 'problem'! Or rather the results are, the results being life as we presently know it.. or rather, the world as we presently know it.
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
Now my answer to the first question would involve taken the literalism away from the Garden of Eden story
I think the Eden story is literal.. I figure why not? :smile: makes more sense than if they were a class of people... all would make a bad choice together at the same time? besides the bible says "all nations came from one man, Adam.."
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
but I'm not clear on what model you're disclaiming here. Are you saying that answers don't have the capacity to make choices or something?
I'm not sure I understand the question.. I'm disclaiming the crazy notion (imo:) that we are like robots or an ant farm.. but that when God endowed thinking ability to angel and man.. that was a Pandora's box.. Yet He is creating rational creatures. And that is why He endowed thinking ability, which an offshoot of is the ability to make choices. I think, therefor I can make decisions and choices.. ..but if God is both life and perfection.. Well, we are imperfect, and the result of "missing the mark" is death/nonlife - translated as "the wages of sin is death".
(note: since God designed it this way, I believe He takes responsibility for it all (imperfection) and saves all, having built the rescue in "from the foundation" (beginning.. in the blueprint/design/this life of instruction,teaching us)
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
I'm certainly in agreement with you on most all of your logically considered conclusions. Although I have to add the understand that in the absolute sense only God is perfect,
:iagree: :iagree: Absolutely!! ..but He does say "be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.." but of course we cannot possibly do this until His return and the resurrection / meeting Him in the air at His return when "this mortal must put on immortality and this corrupt/imperfect must put on incorruptibility"
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
anything He creates is going automatically be less than perfect because it is remove from the perfect 'God' model.
..after the creation days He said "behold it's all good" - all good, to me, would be good with no less than good.. perfect :smile"
I do believe Jesus is the Only straight out from God One.. so to be of the same essence and substance.. and character.. with all other things "created through Jesus" and now being "gathered into Jesus" after like sheep wandering away.. But He is always "First" (pre-eminent; Colossians ch 1:? or 2?)
Quote from: CST on March 16, 2016, 07:35:42 PM
However, it can, in theory, be perfect according to what God's intention for it is. So your observation comes into play when the being has the capacity to not act according to that purpose, which I'm assuming would be better and more 'perfect' than only being able to choose what God would have us choose, which to come full circle, I think is what you mean by the ant farm. Is that a correct understanding?
Yep! I think so! :thumbsup:
I would expect so, it informs your relationship to your child, that's bound to be a big deal.
I think I see where you're coming from but this thread probably isn't the place to describe my take on 'free will'.
The answer to "Why not?" in my case is that the theory of evolution is mechanically true even I'm very skeptical about how the process its self is defended. But I admit I'm not comfortable in rejecting literal interpretations of stories in the Bible especially when it concerns progeny which I can see is so important to understanding how the Bible presents human relationships but I also think it's irrational to just reject the science and its discoveries. I think there are actually Biblical reasons for not taking the Eden story literally and even in believing in evolution from it, though that doesn't change the fact there's a lot of conclusions from science I'd like to throw out compared with what the Bible says. But I can reconcile the Eden story in my head. The flood narrative on the other hand versus the science, that I struggle with a lot.
Sorry, Marie, I don't know how that happened. I'm not surprised you don't understand, although you seem to have picked it up, I was trying to write 'ants' again and somehow I wrote answers instead. Sorry.
It does say be perfect, although there's an article on the site that tries to dilute that down somewhat. Somewhat more than I think it demands actually. I think it should be 'be flawless' which is a form of perfection but can taken as a more relative term, I think.
It's interesting how you take "very good" as a term for 'perfect'. I take it as an alternative and consider that He did not use the word 'perfect.'
Again 'flawless' or 'faultless', I think is the word at play here.
the word for "perfect" in Matthew 5:48 is "telios" which means "consumated goal" and is refering to growing in the divine nature imo
1 Cor 14:20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature(telios).
It is clear that we are not perfect in many places in scripture. Jesus teaches us how to forgive and to be forgiven because whether or not we are becoming mature is made is evident in how we deal with out imperfections.
Paul, Peter, James and John all include many instructions in their epistles about dealing with our faults, sins, and imperfections.
Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Forgive one another; forbear one another; in as much as it is possible be at peace with one another.
What is perfect about the Father is that He loves and forgives the imperfect.
In fact, the fundamental error of Israel is that they approached the law as a means to perfection rather than regarding it as a guide to living generously and in harmony with one another.
IMO this kind of comes back around to the OP. We are created in the image of God and in becoming like Him we are becoming mature in love, wisdom and understanding. This occurs through the revelation that God loved us when we were yet sinners(imperfect) and has, through His Son, imputed a perfection in us that is being imparted as well as we grow in grace- not as we become obedient to statutes.
We grow in grace as we freely give grace.
Freely you have received freely give. If you would be perfect, love your enemies and forgive them. Love one another that your joy may be full.
Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?
QuoteI'd say my 'vision' was a lot less involved than John's although it was a representation of the ending so it was probably the most important bit (I don't want to divide the weight of the test o the Bible that much).
At the time I just thought I got 'left behind' owing to not been ceremoniously clean at the time.
You have probably quoted the most encouraging line of scripture going, although ETers and EDers tend to reduce the weight of the word 'we' in that quote. And given what the Gospel actually is there should probably loads of encouraging linesin their and we shouldn't have to try as hard as some of us seem to have searched to find them.
Thinking you were not left behind , but being prepared by the Lords teaching and comforting Spirit working in you CST
I was woke up this morning with the thought being , anyone whom is still caught in the ''trap'' of accusing their brother before the Lord day and night , is still got some pride left to be burned out of them :sigh:
I have considered this as a lesson when following after them , realizing that fear is real at the time that you may also be a cast away , and so the Love of God has not been worked though them yet and emptied them out fully , once you have been though that type of lesson learned , you do not ever want to taste not, touch not. or handle not ever again ...
You can tell folks till your blue in the face , but they will not actually know what you mean till that experience is worked though them and made a heart knowledge rather than a head knowledge
God deals with us all according to our needs and gives us His Holy Spirit , oil to keep the home fires burning and the light in check even if we sleep , like the ten virgins had and when we rise that will determine whom is ready to meet him in the air , in my opinion [ the Kingdom of heaven is like]
Quote from: CST on March 19, 2016, 05:01:32 PM
Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?
Thanks John , good thoughts CST ... the mark of the higher calling come up here !! thinking above and not below
mature , complete , entire James 4 Rejoicing in Trials
...3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4And let endurance have its
perfect result, so that you may be
perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. 5But if any of you lacks wisdom,
let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him....
I do believe the Holy Spirit is what does the work in us all , this is my faith of it , Love of God kind , is the result of Holy Spirit fruit
Quote from: CST on March 19, 2016, 05:01:32 PM
Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?
Sin is missing the mark.
Hitting the mark is the "consumated goal" of being like God, forgiving sin and giving grace to overcome sin, conformed to the image of Christ the image of God.
It is a major difference in perception that needs to be defined(imo)
Christ's glory is not because He was perfect and did not sin.
Jesus always loved(His Father and His fellow man), therefore He never sinned.
This distinction informs our discipleship, as we bear His yoke and learn of Him to be meek and lowly of heart(broken and contrite).
All our righteousness is as filthy rags. It is as we love with His love that we experience His righteousness and there is no sin imputed to us because we are partaking of the grace that flows through faith. Faith that is focused in His love will yield greater grace. Greater grace will yield more of the divine nature. It is through partaking of the divine nature we find ourselves walking in victory over sin and sins- because we are always loving and forgiving. Against the fruit of the spirit there is no law, because the tree of life is planted in the divine nature through grace.
"Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputes no iniquity".
These are the friends of God. They are not perfect under the law, they are perfect in character- becoming like Him with whom they resonate/harmonize, loving and forgiving the imperfect, the perverse, the twisted- reconciling them out of perverseness through recognition/revelation of the superiority of love- Christ crucified as the image of God, the manifestation of the divine nature.
Quote from: rosered on March 19, 2016, 05:02:45 PM
QuoteI'd say my 'vision' was a lot less involved than John's although it was a representation of the ending so it was probably the most important bit (I don't want to divide the weight of the test o the Bible that much).
At the time I just thought I got 'left behind' owing to not been ceremoniously clean at the time.
You have probably quoted the most encouraging line of scripture going, although ETers and EDers tend to reduce the weight of the word 'we' in that quote. And given what the Gospel actually is there should probably loads of encouraging linesin their and we shouldn't have to try as hard as some of us seem to have searched to find them.
Thinking you were not left behind , but being prepared by the Lords teaching and comforting Spirit working in you CST
I was woke up this morning with the thought being , anyone whom is still caught in the "trap" of accusing their brother before the Lord day and night , is still got some pride left to be burned out of them :sigh:
I have considered this as a lesson when following after them , realizing that fear is real at the time that you may also be a cast away , and so the Love of God has not been worked though them yet and emptied them out fully , once you have been though that type of lesson learned , you do not ever want to taste not, touch not. or handle not ever again ...
You can tell folks till your blue in the face , but they will not actually know what you mean till that experience is worked though them and made a heart knowledge rather than a head knowledge
God deals with us all according to our needs and gives us His Holy Spirit , oil to keep the home fires burning and the light in check even if we sleep , like the ten virgins had and when we rise that will determine whom is ready to meet him in the air , in my opinion [ the Kingdom of heaven is like]
:laugh: No, I probably wasn't left behind. But it did make me wonder about the nature of the rapture (which I've long doubted actually) and whether it really is this single event that a lot of Fundamentalists seems to suggest where a huge body of people vanish from the Earth, when maybe it could something more personal spread over history.
I really think I'm caught in that trap to some degree or the other. The last time managed to burn my bridges without trying was something like that. Trying to warn someone about aspects of their behavior which worried me, which I think I'm instructed to do, but the discussion went the wrong way and it wasn't construed that way.
You mean that all the virgins slept, it was the half that didn't have the oil they thought they needed that had the problems? I'm not sure I can't remember the parable that well. I can rather remember my responses to it though, but I don't think this is the thread to discuss them. I do remember the parable suggested it was the bridesmaid own fault and none of God's (or anyone's) lack of provision they didn't have the oil they should have. I agree though not, necessarily, for the surface reasons.
Quote from: rosered on March 19, 2016, 05:07:22 PM
Quote from: CST on March 19, 2016, 05:01:32 PM
Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?
Thanks John , good thoughts CST ... the mark of the higher calling come up here !! thinking above and not below
mature , complete , entire James 4 Rejoicing in Trials
...3knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him....
I do believe the Holy Spirit is what does the work in us all , this is my faith of it , Love of God kind , is the result of Holy Spirit fruit
I've asked for wisdom sometimes, I'm not sure if I've received it or not. I'm a bit unsure about such request and how much weight they having seeing that Solomon asked God for wisdom,received wisdom and then shortly after displaying his wisdom went off and did some very foolish things. Quite probably the most foolish he could do in his circumstances.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 19, 2016, 05:39:10 PM
Quote from: CST on March 19, 2016, 05:01:32 PM
Hang on "consummated goal"? that's like hitting the target or mark. That means don't sin, doesn't it?
Sin is missing the mark.
Hitting the mark is the "consumated goal" of being like God, forgiving sin and giving grace to overcome sin, conformed to the image of Christ the image of God.
It is a major difference in perception that needs to be defined(imo)
Christ's glory is not because He was perfect and did not sin.
Jesus always loved(His Father and His fellow man), therefore He never sinned.
This distinction informs our discipleship, as we bear His yoke and learn of Him to be meek and lowly of heart(broken and contrite).
All our righteousness is as filthy rags. It is as we love with His love that we experience His righteousness and there is no sin imputed to us because we are partaking of the grace that flows through faith. Faith that is focused in His love will yield greater grace. Greater grace will yield more of the divine nature. It is through partaking of the divine nature we find ourselves walking in victory over sin and sins- because we are always loving and forgiving. Against the fruit of the spirit there is no law, because the tree of life is planted in the divine nature through grace.
"Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputes no iniquity".
These are the friends of God. They are not perfect under the law, they are perfect in character- becoming like Him with whom they resonate/harmonize, loving and forgiving the imperfect, the perverse, the twisted- reconciling them out of perverseness through recognition/revelation of the superiority of love- Christ crucified as the image of God, the manifestation of the divine nature.
:smile: So, like, in the context I'd be describing simply not missing the mark would be neutral and what the "consummated goal" is active and positive. I was thinking not sinning, not missing the mark presupposed the requirement to hit it.
I still find it hard to believe I'm in the non imputed group given what keeps happening in my relationship with others frequently. I'm still not sure I have the faith that saves given to me I find it hard to see myself successfully meeting the character that text describes.
Quote
:laugh: No, I probably wasn't left behind. But it did make me wonder about the nature of the rapture (which I've long doubted actually) and whether it really is this single event that a lot of Fundamentalists seems to suggest where a huge body of people vanish from the Earth, when maybe it could something more personal spread over history.
I really think I'm caught in that trap to some degree or the other. The last time managed to burn my bridges without trying was something like that. Trying to warn someone about aspects of their behavior which worried me, which I think I'm instructed to do, but the discussion went the wrong way and it wasn't construed that way.
You mean that all the virgins slept, it was the half that didn't have the oil they thought they needed that had the problems? I'm not sure I can't remember the parable that well. I can rather remember my responses to it though, but I don't think this is the thread to discuss them. I do remember the parable suggested it was the bridesmaid own fault and none of God's (or anyone's) lack of provision they didn't have the oil they should have. I agree though not, necessarily, for the surface reasons.
I apologize from trailing off the topic CST , but to clarify the main reason for lack was to me .
All the ten virgins slumbered & slept the meanings can vary , it is to become indifferent about their salvation ,
cool off phase , this happens to us all , we all fall short in my opinion .
I believe the difference between the 5 wise and five foolish , is the wise get their oil from the Lord[Holy Spirit teaching them ] and the foolish are still buying as if receiving from Babylon
:dontknow: Just what all is involved , I sure enjoy simple answers over all the hype and hubbub .
QuoteI've asked for wisdom sometimes, I'm not sure if I've received it or not. I'm a bit unsure about such request and how much weight they having seeing that Solomon asked God for wisdom,received wisdom and then shortly after displaying his wisdom went off and did some very foolish things. Quite probably the most foolish he could do in his circumstances.
He had the earthly wisdom CST , the time for that was in his day to prove that earthly wisdom could not save no one , the Lord Jesus Christ come to show us
It is the wisdom from above and earth and below found in following the pattern set by the Father though the gift of the Jesus Christ that in His death being the cross poured out His Spirit on all flesh and would know'' all things '' by the Holy Spirit coming and staying with us and the mind of Christ being the Head , for us to led by , just what I have gathered from scriptures so far .
Eph 1 Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom
...20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and
gave Him as head over all things to the church,... 1 John 2 ...19They went out from us, but they were not really of us;
for if they had been of us, they would have
remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
20But
you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth,
but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth....
I do believe the last two churches are what we are in , and the division of the true brotherly love Philadelphia church or the laconian being victory/ power of the people This is just me though , some may share this differently and that is fine
But God has granted them the ability and warning to come out of that Laodicean last day church
Everyone has their own ideas about it and just sharing my own . It is up to the Holy Spirit to quicken anything and give the increase , we just plant the seeds or water , which is nothing or can come to nothing until God gives the anointing on it and the Light of Knowledge shines upon it as it is written ...
Word of God said , the labours of love are bearing fruits of the Holy Spirit and are blessed in these deeds .
So not to be taken lightly , the sleepy vigins and the wise and foolish ones are between these two last churches in Revelation of Christ perhaps ?
I am for one who believe it is so . God bless you with more of Him CST , and to one and all .
Quote from: rosered on March 18, 2016, 01:20:37 PM
Oh sis!
I love you to pieces lol ha ha :girlheart:
Love of God kind , that wants nothing but good things for all mankind , not just a few chosen loved ones :winkgrin:
The Lord has blessed us all beyond measure , His patience His goodness and faithfulness and gentleness , peace and joy being His miracles and signs of LIFE working in the times /ages and stages and continual supply though the Lord Jesus Christ :HeartThrob:
A favorite thought as of late , life and death are yours " all things" are yours , what an inheritance ! ," all things " also work together whom love the Lord
1Cor 3 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish,[ call that carnal mind a fooler and deception is death and an enmity against the Spirit of Life and dwells in us all God is fair that way !]
so that he may become wise. [putting on the mind of Christ that all things can become new and living and pleasing to the Living God ]
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.
For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness";
and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless."
So then let no one boast in men.
For all things belong to you, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come;
all things belong to you, and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.
What a wonderful thing to focus on " we all belong " to God and not to ourselves that seems to be the foolish thinking that we some how own anything , but is loaned and borrowed from God being slaves to err that we Know Jesus CHRIST DID buy back with His own blood , a purchase and a precious price , that will bear fruit to the Father as it is written and spoken and finally known to all .
Amen sista!! :thumbsup: :iagree: :girlheart: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: CST on March 18, 2016, 07:42:43 PM
I was trying to write 'ants' again and somehow I wrote answers instead....
:laugh2: :laugh2: now I get it... :smile:
Quote from: rosered on March 19, 2016, 07:57:41 PM
Quote
:laugh: No, I probably wasn't left behind. But it did make me wonder about the nature of the rapture (which I've long doubted actually) and whether it really is this single event that a lot of Fundamentalists seems to suggest where a huge body of people vanish from the Earth, when maybe it could something more personal spread over history.
I really think I'm caught in that trap to some degree or the other. The last time managed to burn my bridges without trying was something like that. Trying to warn someone about aspects of their behavior which worried me, which I think I'm instructed to do, but the discussion went the wrong way and it wasn't construed that way.
You mean that all the virgins slept, it was the half that didn't have the oil they thought they needed that had the problems? I'm not sure I can't remember the parable that well. I can rather remember my responses to it though, but I don't think this is the thread to discuss them. I do remember the parable suggested it was the bridesmaid own fault and none of God's (or anyone's) lack of provision they didn't have the oil they should have. I agree though not, necessarily, for the surface reasons.
I apologize from trailing off the topic CST , but to clarify the main reason for lack was to me .
All the ten virgins slumbered & slept the meanings can vary , it is to become indifferent about their salvation ,
cool off phase , this happens to us all , we all fall short in my opinion .
I believe the difference between the 5 wise and five foolish , is the wise get their oil from the Lord[Holy Spirit teaching them ] and the foolish are still buying as if receiving from Babylon
:dontknow: Just what all is involved , I sure enjoy simple answers over all the hype and hubbub .
QuoteI've asked for wisdom sometimes, I'm not sure if I've received it or not. I'm a bit unsure about such request and how much weight they having seeing that Solomon asked God for wisdom,received wisdom and then shortly after displaying his wisdom went off and did some very foolish things. Quite probably the most foolish he could do in his circumstances.
He had the earthly wisdom CST , the time for that was in his day to prove that earthly wisdom could not save no one , the Lord Jesus Christ come to show us
It is the wisdom from above and earth and below found in following the pattern set by the Father though the gift of the Jesus Christ that in His death being the cross poured out His Spirit on all flesh and would know" all things " by the Holy Spirit coming and staying with us and the mind of Christ being the Head , for us to led by , just what I have gathered from scriptures so far .
Eph 1 Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom
...20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,...
1 John 2 ...19They went out from us, but they were not really of us;
for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth....
I do believe the last two churches are what we are in , and the division of the true brotherly love Philadelphia church or the laconian being victory/ power of the people This is just me though , some may share this differently and that is fine
But God has granted them the ability and warning to come out of that Laodicean last day church
Everyone has their own ideas about it and just sharing my own . It is up to the Holy Spirit to quicken anything and give the increase , we just plant the seeds or water , which is nothing or can come to nothing until God gives the anointing on it and the Light of Knowledge shines upon it as it is written ...
Word of God said , the labours of love are bearing fruits of the Holy Spirit and are blessed in these deeds .
So not to be taken lightly , the sleepy vigins and the wise and foolish ones are between these two last churches in Revelation of Christ perhaps ?
I am for one who believe it is so . God bless you with more of Him CST , and to one and all .
I see the parable slightly differently by marrying with other saying and parables of Jesus that are recorded at least in some manuscripts of the Gospels. But as you say it's off topic so this probably isn't the place to go there.
I'm not sure how you are making the distinction between wisdoms here the scripture clearly says that God told Solomon to ask for what he wanted. Solomon asked for wisdom. It then says God was pleased he had asked for this and granted him it. He then went off and displayed this wisdom right up until the point he used a conscripted workforce to build his own house, married rather too many wives and went off worship other gods.
I don't like the idea that God was pleased with what Solomon asked for and then gave him something substandard. That sounds rather tricksy.
Still the idea does make sense of some of the dubious content in Ecclesiastes.
Bless you too, Rose. Amen
Quote from: marie glen on March 20, 2016, 03:53:04 AM
Quote from: CST on March 18, 2016, 07:42:43 PM
I was trying to write 'ants' again and somehow I wrote answers instead....
:laugh2: :laugh2: now I get it... :smile:
Yes, laugh at me. I'd rather others would laugh at stuff I get wrong. They tend to get really offended rather much.
QuoteI see the parable slightly differently by marrying with other saying and parables of Jesus that are recorded at least in some manuscripts of the Gospels. But as you say it's off topic so this probably isn't the place to go there.
I'm not sure how you are making the distinction between wisdoms here the scripture clearly says that God told Solomon to ask for what he wanted. Solomon asked for wisdom. It then says God was pleased he had asked for this and granted him it. He then went off and displayed this wisdom right up until the point he used a conscripted workforce to build his own house, married rather too many wives and went off worship other gods.
I don't like the idea that God was pleased with what Solomon asked for and then gave him something substandard. That sounds rather tricksy.
Still the idea does make sense of some of the dubious content in Ecclesiastes.
Bless you too, Rose. Amen
Thank you CST ,
For your kindness and sharing your thoughts , I can also agree with you in the 10 virgins the five foolish variation of marrying another :thumbsup:
I cannot disagree with that ''layer of truth '' many layers to discover , to me there are several ways to look at a parable and describe it in our perceptions,
our state of being , or light and rising [Romans 14 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking,
but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,] I see this site , as a table set before us and eating and drinking of His body and drinking His blood that we might have life in us and discerning His body of believers , that all parts work together as One and Lifting the LORD UP to draw all men unto Him and no messy food fights lol ]
One thing I have learned is we never stop learning ha ha :laughing7: But continue growing in truth and grace as God permits .
My reasoning for Solomon
in all his glory , being the glory of mankind was always the way the scriptures has worded in old testament and Jesus own words in the new
Solomon just wanted to rule his own kingdom as a fair and just king there are varying degrees of glory in the earth and in heaven [ 1 COR 15 ] and every last one of them saw corruption, everyone except the Lord Jesus Christ .
This is My beloved Son here Him ,,, Today if you hear my voice and harden not your heart to provoke God Hebrews 3:15 The time is now the dead shall hear my voice and Live John 5:25 none could make such a claim as the Lord Jesus Christ and tell the truth .
, To me corruption is the image of sinful mankind in his deadend state , Jesus Christ tasted death for every man on the Cross , so He can be the Lord of the dead and the living and defeat all enemies and the last one being death , so when death comes to man in what ever state of corruption man is in , and cries out to God and softens his heart towards God , so is the victory is in JESUS CHRIST .
A greater than Solomon is Here ,,, Jesus Christ is the servant of all and gave His life , laying it down to take it back up again , no one ever has done this before.
and Jesus told the disciples James and John that they did not know what matter of Spirit they were of , when they wanted to bring fire down on that city that had rejected Jesus teaching and He said I did not come to destroy mens lives but save them ..
Matt 12 The Sign of Jonah is this sign right here ,,,
...41"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah;
and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
42"The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it,
because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and
behold, something greater than Solomon is here. For me in sharing this it is just the signs of the times , God has always shown a progression over the ages and stages and increase , when a Word is for that particular time it will come to pass , openly for all to see , many say where is God in all this mess and state the world is in , But Jesus Christ has said
The prince/ ruler of this world is coming and has nothing in Me , the ruler of this world is already judged , etc ,, many scriptures about this world set for destruction and with fervent heat as sodom and Gomorrah , and the Lord left His seed the WORD OF LIFE ..
and you have passed from death to life when Love of God overcomes the world
1 John 3 Love One Another
...13Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you.
14We know that we have passed
out of death into life, because we love the brethren.
He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him....
John 5:24
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged
but has crossed over from death to life.John 13:35
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples
, if you love one another."1 John 2:10
Anyone who loves their brother and sister
lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.1 John 5:2
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. I do believe how we Loved will be greater than how we know all things , because to know all things is to Love with every fiber of our being , what is good and right in the sight of God , loving Him because He loved us first and gave of Himself for us . Jesus Christ is the Love of God manifested to the world , for God so loved the world that He gave his only one of a kind Son that whosoever believes this much has this, His life working in them . by the Spirit of truth with the Word of truth as a witness on their account and His holy work will not fail us .
God bless you CST , and wanting to share exchanges , this got rather long , so thank you for your patience with me trying to explain what is in my heart and thank you for the blessing .
Thank you for explaining your question of the distinctions between the two wisdoms CST , the above and below types , I did a bit in the above post
But to further clarify the two types of wisdom one of the earth and one of the heavens and their glory to God making Him True and every man a liar .
Lots of scriptures in these defining the wisdom of the world and the Wisdom of God and how the two prove Truth
To be carnally minded is death , the wisdom of mankind and its glory making Solomon rich and with wealth and fame comes the pride of life and the lusts in them things can cause the falling away and stumbling from a higher seat / state to a lower state /seat and seeing corruption , every king of the earth saw corruption , sin , error and death decay , bearing the image of Adam dwelling in death and will also bear the Image of Jesus Christ and made alive
He was seated with Christ in heavenly places by his anointing of God , but could rise no further than God permitted , at that time it was glorious .. Jesus had not come yet to fulfill all things yet .
QuoteI'm not sure how you are making the distinction between wisdoms here the scripture clearly says that God told Solomon to ask for what he wanted. Solomon asked for wisdom. It then says God was pleased he had asked for this and granted him it. He then went off and displayed this wisdom right up until the point he used a conscripted workforce to build his own house, married rather too many wives and went off worship other gods
The Word of the Lord Stands Forever
...23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND
ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF, 25BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.
All flesh is as grass and glory is for a moment in that moment the Word of God is glorified ..
Job 14:2
They spring up like flowers and wither away; like fleeting shadows, they do not endure.
Psalm 39:6
"Surely everyone goes around like a mere phantom; in vain they rush about, heaping up wealth without knowing whose it will finally be.
Psalm 103:15
The life of mortals is like grass, they flourish like a flower of the field;
Isaiah 40:6
A voice says, "Cry out." And I said, "What shall I cry?" "All people are like grass, and all their faithfulness is like the flowers of the field.
Isaiah 51:12
"I, even I, am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fear mere mortals, human beings who are but grass,
Matthew 6:30
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and
tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you--you of little faith?James 1:10
But the rich should take pride in their humiliation--since they will pass away like a wild flower.
There is more scriptures JESUS says I am from above you are below , I am the way the Truth and the life .. and the rising and falling of many because of Him Then Simeon blessed them, and he said to Mary, the baby's mother, "This child is destined to cause many in Israel to fall, but he will be a joy to many others. He has been sent as a sign from God, but many will oppose him.
John 8 22So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come '?" 23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
]24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."...
James 3 True Wisdom from Above
...14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart,
do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15
This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic.
16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing....
1 Cor 1 Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
...23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Wisdom is justified of all her Children , the Wisdom from Above comes down and every child born again of Spirit in truth [John 3 ] same as Eve mother of the living is saved by giving birth to all the earthly children and no law but are a law into themselves as judges , till the law comes [this age ] in bondage of sin and death under the law ,
so is the Church being the Body of Christ and this age of grace [ Ephesians 5 His body of believers ] and Galatians 4
Bond and Free
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was
born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are
two covenants:
one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26
But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,
"Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout,
you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband."
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
30 But what does the Scripture say?
"Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman,
but of the free woman. So the children of Gods promise to Abraham " inherit all things " life and death all things are yours ..
Those sand of the sea shore children have no light in them but are tossed from waves and the dead sea
but those as the stars of heaven have the light of Christ[anointing ] in them and shine forth but can and do rise and fall
Though one falls 7 times God is able to make him stand ...
Jacobs ladder & dream Genesis 28:10-17 heaven opened when Jesus Christ set in place to fulfill all things
son of man angels ascending and descending
John 1 50Jesus answered and said to him, "Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these." 51And He said to him,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see the heavens opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."
Genesis 28:12
He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
The rise and fall of many in the Lord Jesus Christ , those made whole and many are broken and scattered .
Our Rock not made with human hands that becomes a mountain in the earth Daniel 2
Going here and there , I apologize , but it is what it is , So many scriptures connect to one another and speak to our hearts .. God bless and keep you .
As I said I obviously, still consider my interpretation of the parable but the way you describe it may be more mutually exclusive compared to mine than I initially thought.
My concern over the difference between the wisdoms isn't in how the Bible describes them it's what it pleased God to give to Solomon because he asked for it, why it would please him to give him Earthly wisdom if it does so much damage and why Solmon wasn't short changed that he didn't get the better one. You say Solomon only wanted to be a fair and just king? The impression I get from the text of the OT is that as soon as he strayed into idolatry he wasn't anything of the sort and there's an implication he wasn't much of the sort before hand.
I was also of the impression that the term (earthy) wisdom in many of your quotes is ironic shorthand for idiocy. And that wasn't what Solomon asked for.
No messy food fights? No Fun! :laughing7: :dsunny:
God bless!
Quote from: CST on March 21, 2016, 08:16:13 PM
As I said I obviously, still consider my interpretation of the parable but the way you describe it may be more mutually exclusive compared to mine than I initially thought.
My concern over the difference between the wisdoms isn't in how the Bible describes them it's what it pleased God to give to Solomon because he asked for it, why it would please him to give him Earthly wisdom if it does so much damage and why Solmon wasn't short changed that he didn't get the better one. You say Solomon only wanted to be a fair and just king? The impression I get from the text of the OT is that as soon as he strayed into idolatry he wasn't anything of the sort and there's an implication he wasn't much of the sort before hand.
I was also of the impression that the term (earthy) wisdom in many of your quotes is ironic shorthand for idiocy. And that wasn't what Solomon asked for.
No messy food fights? No Fun! :laughing7: :dsunny:
God bless!
I did not mean to bold all that :sigh: I did not ,,, and am so sorry ..
It is ok CST , we all see according to the grace of God in His word and Spirit , sometimes we have just what we need , it is all at the Lords hand and in power
God bless you and trying to fix the messy bold , pressed the wrong button somewhere :doh:
I had forgot to include this main verse CST , and thought of the promise of Abraham being the children /seed , great as sand of the sea and stars of heaven and ; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. Gen 22 16-18
1 Kings 4 Solomon's Wisdom
29Now God gave Solomon wisdom and very great discernment and breadth of mind,
like the sand that is on the seashore. 30 Solomon's wisdom surpassed the wisdom of all the sons of the east and all the wisdom of Egypt.
31For he was wiser than all men, than Ethan the Ezrahite, Heman, Calcol and Darda, the sons of Mahol; and his fame was known in all the surrounding nations.
Solomon received heavenly wisdom, which is fruitful in earthly endeavors
Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.
He departed for a time from the path of righteousness, but his wisdom never left him
For the gifts and callings of Gd are without repentance
Once he came to his senses he wrote about the futility of all that is under the sun, so we reap the harvest of both his wisdom and his foolishness :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on March 22, 2016, 07:03:48 AM
Solomon received heavenly wisdom, which is fruitful in earthly endeavors
Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.
He departed for a time from the path of righteousness, but his wisdom never left him
For the gifts and callings of Gd are without repentance
Once he came to his senses he wrote about the futility of all that is under the sun, so we reap the harvest of both his wisdom and his foolishness :o)
I agree with you John and CST , but cannot help think of Jesus Christ proclaiming a greater than Solomon is HERE !!
Solomon come in peace , but not to hold his "thoughts " above the Lord Jesus Christ in my simple opinion . He was one whom did folly , to rise and fall , stumble in many times and ways and eating the fruits of his labours and hardships and sacrifices and sins / errors made under the law , lessons learned just a whole lot like us all given the truth in the Word by his Spirit .
There is no name
under heaven by which you must be saved ..
Solomon was set as an example of how wisdom along with riches and wealth does not save us , those earthly lusts for strange women caused great plunder and scattering without faithfulness , hope and love these 3 remain an excellent foundation to build upon in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ , the temple not made with human hands , we all now know is the truth now ..
I cannot help but think , what was Pilot getting at , Asking the Lord Jesus Christ "What is truth? " . For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world,
to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
Is this not the same reason for which we are born again from above ?
This is my beloved son , hear Him .
...34 While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. 35Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you;
but as His anointing teaches you about all things,
and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. I believe that Solomon was a part of the many voices , many waters of Life from Above for the time it was his anointing to be a king of the earth , but life and death was both working in Him , by the power of the tongue /language /speech .
Because the whole volume of the BOOK is written of ME Hebrews 10 Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
...6IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7"THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'"
8After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law),...
LOVE fulfilling the law ,,,, As foolish as this may sound to anyone hearing me right now , I have to say it , I believe the "loving your neighbor as your self , goes far deeper than human wisdom , but we know that now by the scriptures , The flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit wars against powers and principalities in high places , this being the seat of our hearts both is dwelling within us as near as a neighbor ![ The LIVING GOD not very far from anyone of us [Acts 17] 7 Spirits of 7 eyes the Lamb slain from the foundation of your world has come !! Rev 5
When the Spirit of the Holy One whom is all Life and peace sits in the seat of our hearts[Mind of Christ] we consider the carnal nature /neighbour , that mind is all about death , but wars against the Spirit of Life being the enmity, the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something. and putting those enemies under your feet , the teaching of the gospel , having peace within yourselves first and salted with fire , humbled as that Law of Love is actively being asserted in all that is within you , the world in our hearts [ Ecc 3 ] that Wisdom of God that rules over all flesh and Father of spirits etc...
Freedom in Christ
...13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
Leviticus 19:18
"'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 19:19
honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Matthew 22:39
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
I'm not quite sure what you're apologizing for I never had a problem with the bold. I did manage to create for myself a problem in somehow exceeding my word count when original replying to you but I can't see your bold would do that I think I was careless somehow.
Because this issue about Solomon's wisdom is clearly confusing and contentious last night I decided to return to the source. Here is what the Bible actually says:
1 Kings 3:5-14
At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in an dream by night; and God said, "Ask what I shall give you."
And Solomon said, "Thou hast shown great and steadfast love to thy servant David my father, because he walked before thee in faithfulness, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart towards thee; and thou hast kept him for this great and steadfast love, and hast given him a son to sit on his throne this day.
And now, O LORD, my God, thou hast made thy servant king in place of David my father, although I am but a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in.
And thy servant is in the midst of thy people whom thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered or counted for multitude.
Give thy servant therefore an understanding mind to govern thy people, that I may discern between good and evil; for who is able to govern this thy great people?"
It pleased the LORD that Solomon had asked this.
And God said to him, "Because you have asked this, and have not asked for yourself long life or riches or the lives of your enemies, but you have asked for yourself understanding to discern what is right,
behold I know do according to your word. Behold I give you a wise and discerning mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall rise after you.
I give you also what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that no other king should compare with you, all your days.
And if you will walk in my ways, keeping my statues and my commandments as your father did, then I will lengthen your days."
Fair, few qualifications there, 'all your days' presumably is meant to qualify 'after you' in some way, probably because as you say and remind us Jesus actually exceeded Solomon in all things including the fact that, unlike Solomon, He didn't stray while, if this is to be understood as written, Solomon knew full well, the idolatry he went after was evil (because we're told he could discern the difference) he went and did it anyway. Presumably, the lesson here isn't Solomon's wisdom suddenly disappearing, it's wisdom not being a sufficient condition by its self to resist temptation. Which, I suppose makes sense.
Nevertheless the context makes clear, as EW points on, that Solomon received heavenly wisdom. The things he didn't ask for would be the demands of Earthly wisdom.
Though to be fair Solomon seemed quite wise in asking for it in the first place. Although not so great in keeping the commandments, perhaps; the chapter opens on him forming a marriage alliance with Eygpt by marrying the Pharaoh's daughter, something the law seems to forbid.
Loving your treatment of the great commandments. :dsunny: I'd say they were off topic, though, except I don't think they can ever be off topic.
I T totally agree with your sharing CST and the scriptures themselves and Ew ,
And found no contention at all , quiet the opposite really , I love it when we can all reason for our beliefs and how we come to them conclusions .
It helps to refine it much better and clarify the truth , and am all for the truth in the Love of God and you have helped me see it was Heavenly wisdom that done Solomon well in his days of being a king of the earth .
CST says
QuoteI'd say they were off topic, though, except I don't think they can ever be off topic.
Agreed ! Love and the grace of God has no bounds :HeartThrob:
Gods blessing as always
:dsunny: :HeartThrob:
God bless Rosered!
Something that came to mind with Solomon and his partaking of the fleshly things reminded me of the verse that says "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17)
Is "a sin not unto death" one for the purpose of identifying with another to help them, for example: like that new weight loss show, where the trainer gains all that extra weight just for the purpose of identifying with another (becoming as) and works with them through the process of losing the weight for the assurance they are not alone.
For just as Christ took upon Himself a likeness of the flesh, to help others overcome the flesh (desires of), because it is only through His work in us that this can be and is accomplished.
Quote from: jugghead on March 23, 2016, 01:47:19 AM
Something that came to mind with Solomon and his partaking of the fleshly things reminded me of the verse that says "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17)
Is "a sin not unto death" one for the purpose of identifying with another to help them, for example: like that new weight loss show, where the trainer gains all that extra weight just for the purpose of identifying with another (becoming as) and works with them through the process of losing the weight for the assurance they are not alone.
For just as Christ took upon Himself a likeness of the flesh, to help others overcome the flesh (desires of), because it is only through His work in us that this can be and is accomplished.
Thank you wonderful thoughts Jugghead ,
You made me think of these verses He tasted death for every man
2 Cor 5 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ,
as though God were making an appeal through us
; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Heb 2 ...8YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him,
He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings....
I hope you are doing well and good to see you back , God bless you always
That's a fascinating quote. Comparing like for like in various translations there a several that do not have the indefinite article in the noun phrase "a sin" in some it just says "not all sin leads to death" or similar which, of course, suggests a different idea.
I think a sin not unto death is a sin that is a minor violation under the OT law. Sins unto death are those that only repentance can release.
If I see someone smoking, or someone struggling with gluttony, or an addiction of some other type I can pray for them to be forgiven, and God will forgive them and release grace(life) to them to help them overcome that sin.
:2c:
I struggle to dilute sin like that, all sins are offences against the will and purpose of God, whatever else they are and thus, I would say, pretty serious.
I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock.
Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".
All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.
When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.
"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."
"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.
In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.
:thumbsup:
Love One Another 1JOHN 3
...19We will know by this that we are of the truth,
and will assure our heart before Him
20in whatever our heart condemns us;
for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;...
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 08:01:33 PM
I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock.
Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".
All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.
When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.
"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."
"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.
In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.
I'm not sure I think you may be conflating sin with crime. As I recall all those offenses had different punishments but I think they had the same sin offering and guilt offering, I'm pretty sure one always had to be given unless the punishment was death maybe.
The problem I see here is that 'sin' has become a word for any offense in a religious context it's not a word found in the original language of the Bible and the one we often translate as such isn't that common in works like Leviticus, it's mainly attached to phrases like 'sin offering' as I recall. I'm kind of of the impression that sin is a word we apply to all sorts in the Bible improperly. Real sin is a big deal, that's why Jesus had to give His life to solve the problem.
Does anyone believe that there is a difference between physical sin and spiritual sin? Because I do. religion says to take the name of the Lord in vain is to use His name as a cuss word .....
but when we come to the understanding that when the Father speaks of the word "name" it is speaking of His nature and "in vain", I believe is vanity .....
Therefore, the way I understand it is "to take the name of the Lord in vain" is "to take the nature of the Father in vanity"
Cussing is a physical sin through ignorance
"Taking the nature of the Father in vanity" is a spiritual sin through ignorance
His nature is Love :HeartThrob: and to take it in vanity is to say He will not save all. :eek:
my :2c:
Hi CST ,
I hope to give a real life example of mercy on the guilty
This is just a example mind you .
I had a little Pomeranian I loved and was very close to me and I protected it often from everything and had it for 8 years and was like a 2 year old child to me in many ways , but one day early in the morning around 4 am my hubby let it out to go pee and I should have went with him as many times before but got too busy , so the other dog a mixed , we adopted 2 years ago killed him .
My first thought was to kill him , a strong emotion of rage . but I could not kill anything , even in that rage , I could not do it .
Why rage than ? I loved that loyal little fellow and his personality was HUGE and filled a lot of empty and missing places in my own heart .
just filled them up with caring for him and him me ,in other ways with purpose
But I could never love this other dog in the same ways ,because he was not loyal or trusting at all and kind of a nuisance , skittish and nerveous type
but had pity on him .
I still had pity on him even after he killed my little '' peg legs '' or squirrel head , those fond pet names I gave him
The WORD OF GOD is feed your enemies and love those whom harm you and mistreat you here ,
I thought yes Lord, even dogs have a breath of life in them and feelings too .
This just happened April 1st and so was the lesson .
You have the power to kill and destroy , but cannot bring back that life from the dead , ONLY GOD HAS that right , the best we can do is keep the memories alive
What has this to do with sin ?
the scriptures call sin , error and missing the mark ,
I do believe hitting the mark is to have the mind of Christ , obedience and not sacrifices for sin and God stamping His seal of approval on you , as He owns you now
and Keeps you as His own .
Missing it means you are still out there wandering in the world looking for somthing to fill the void in you , which was Gods love all along you needed and never even knew it , missing out on the Love of God in the here and now .
I may sound silly to some , but God knows all our hearts , He made us after all , for His glory .
Quote from: jugghead on April 21, 2016, 10:15:02 PM
Does anyone believe that there is a difference between physical sin and spiritual sin? Because I do. religion says to take the name of the Lord in vain is to use His name as a cuss word .....
but when we come to the understanding that when the Father speaks of the word "name" it is speaking of His nature and "in vain", I believe is vanity .....
Therefore, the way I understand it is "to take the name of the Lord in vain" is "to take the nature of the Father in vanity"
Cussing is a physical sin through ignorance
"Taking the nature of the Father in vanity" is a spiritual sin through ignorance
His nature is Love :HeartThrob: and to take it in vanity is to say He will not save all. :eek:
my :2c:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
Truth :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jugghead on April 21, 2016, 10:15:02 PM
Does anyone believe that there is a difference between physical sin and spiritual sin? Because I do. religion says to take the name of the Lord in vain is to use His name as a cuss word .....
but when we come to the understanding that when the Father speaks of the word "name" it is speaking of His nature and "in vain", I believe is vanity .....
Therefore, the way I understand it is "to take the name of the Lord in vain" is "to take the nature of the Father in vanity"
Cussing is a physical sin through ignorance
"Taking the nature of the Father in vanity" is a spiritual sin through ignorance
His nature is Love :HeartThrob: and to take it in vanity is to say He will not save all. :eek:
my :2c:
The commandment says God will not pardon anyone who misuses his name which technically isn't in vain that's just how the KJV renders it. It's basically falsely or improperly. To me the church has co-opted the commandment (which in context refers to the name 'YHWH') to scare and control people who mutter at God word in times or emotional stress. It's not for us to judge on their motives for calling on the God.
Do I believe there's a difference between physical a spiritual sin? Possibly, that doesn't mean the weight is that difference.
Quote from: rosered on April 21, 2016, 10:26:09 PM
Hi CST ,
I hope to give a real life example of mercy on the guilty
This is just a example mind you .
I had a little Pomeranian I loved and was very close to me and I protected it often from everything and had it for 8 years and was like a 2 year old child to me in many ways , but one day early in the morning around 4 am my hubby let it out to go pee and I should have went with him as many times before but got too busy , so the other dog a mixed , we adopted 2 years ago killed him .
My first thought was to kill him , a strong emotion of rage . but I could not kill anything , even in that rage , I could not do it .
Why rage than ? I loved that loyal little fellow and his personality was HUGE and filled a lot of empty and missing places in my own heart .
just filled them up with caring for him and him me ,in other ways with purpose
But I could never love this other dog in the same ways ,because he was not loyal or trusting at all and kind of a nuisance , skittish and nerveous type
but had pity on him .
I still had pity on him even after he killed my little " peg legs " or squirrel head , those fond pet names I gave him
The WORD OF GOD is feed your enemies and love those whom harm you and mistreat you here ,
I thought yes Lord, even dogs have a breath of life in them and feelings too .
This just happened April 1st and so was the lesson .
You have the power to kill and destroy , but cannot bring back that life from the dead , ONLY GOD HAS that right , the best we can do is keep the memories alive
What has this to do with sin ?
the scriptures call sin , error and missing the mark ,
I do believe hitting the mark is to have the mind of Christ , obedience and not sacrifices for sin and God stamping His seal of approval on you , as He owns you now
and Keeps you as His own .
Missing it means you are still out there wandering in the world looking for somthing to fill the void in you , which was Gods love all along you needed and never even knew it , missing out on the Love of God in the here and now .
I may sound silly to some , but God knows all our hearts , He made us after all , for His glory .
Oh, yeah. But there's some dispute about that with linguists. What there doesn't seem to be a dispute about is that the Bible teaches that sin is serious and its end is death and it doesn't make particular distinction on the grounds of, OK you can do that and the end isn't ever going to be death so knock yourself out. Your point on mercy may actually more more relevant than you think. You wanted to kill your living dog for killing your other dog, now you love both dogs and I'm not sure if you were actually in the right had you chosen to kill the dog but I know you'd have ended up with neither of the dogs you love. Even if not in the same ways. What if the dog had been bitter by a venomous spider and died that way? Would you show mercy to the spider?
As you say don't assume you have the right to kill things willy nilly anger, pity or no. God is merciful to us and that is why He often does give us the punishment, death, that our sins deserve. That doesn't mean that sin has magnitude it just means how God balances His mercy against His justice does.
Sin is serious and Leviticus only gives three ways of deal with it, death, expulsion (pretty much as bad) or a sacrificial offering. But an offering had to be faultless and made at the central shine at Shiloh or later Jerusalem, some people were a lot nearer than others, getting there for some was quite a trek with there often quite valuable, because a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice unless it's worth something, offering. It's easy to overlook this fact, I did for a long time, but none of these options are simple they all include loss and effort of the part of all parties.
Gah, I don't like that I sound like an ET fundamentalist there.
If UR is true, believing it is hitting the mark. If eternal torment is false, believing it is missing the mark. Our purpose on this site is to promote the truth of the salvation of all through Jesus Christ- which we believe is true and scriptural and for which we make no apology. That was the purpose of the opening post of this thread- to demonstrate that by reason, as well as by the scriptures, God is not well served by a gospel that teaches that His divine nature is fulfilled by the endless and hopeless torment of the majority of His creation. :o)
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:19,20
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will... Ephesians 1:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11
When the last knee bows and the last tongue confesses, His desire will have been accomplished according to His kind intention which He purposed in Christ, the gathering together of all things in heaven and in earth into one in Christ
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
This was God's purpose from the beginning
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
We are just one stage(the first fruits) in the completion of His purpose in the administration of the fulness of times
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:19-21
The whole creation restored- that is the gospel Peter proclaimed on the day of Pentecost
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
QuoteOh, yeah. But there's some dispute about that with linguists. What there doesn't seem to be a dispute about is that the Bible teaches that sin is serious and its end is death and it doesn't make particular distinction on the grounds of, OK you can do that and the end isn't ever going to be death so knock yourself out. Your point on mercy may actually more more relevant than you think. You wanted to kill your living dog for killing your other dog, now you love both dogs and I'm not sure if you were actually in the right had you chosen to kill the dog but I know you'd have ended up with neither of the dogs you love. Even if not in the same ways. What if the dog had been bitter by a venomous spider and died that way? Would you show mercy to the spider?
As you say don't assume you have the right to kill things willy nilly anger, pity or no. God is merciful to us and that is why He often does give us the punishment, death, that our sins deserve. That doesn't mean that sin has magnitude it just means how God balances His mercy against His justice does.
Sin is serious and Leviticus only gives three ways of deal with it, death, expulsion (pretty much as bad) or a sacrificial offering. But an offering had to be faultless and made at the central shine at Shiloh or later Jerusalem, some people were a lot nearer than others, getting there for some was quite a trek with there often quite valuable, because a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice unless it's worth something, offering. It's easy to overlook this fact, I did for a long time, but none of these options are simple they all include loss and effort of the part of all parties.
That was beautiful Chris !!
Thank you for making me see other points besides my own !
I agree with you death is death in the sense we cannot bring back little baby Kezzy in the flesh , but thankful to God for the time to love him those 8 years :HeartThrob:
I can go to him in the Spirit of Life and still find joy in these thoughts of him .. treasures we keep in our hearts .
sin is a serious thing , I do consider Cain when God told him sin was crouching at the door and his desire was to rule over Cain , but that Cain should master over it
I have placed boble hubs many different bible translations saying some what the same in meanings
http://biblehub.com/genesis/4-7.htm (http://biblehub.com/genesis/4-7.htm)
My own understanding of it now is , Cains offering could have been accepted with the right heart , but it seems feeling rejected of the Lord caused him to ''fail the test '' and become a murderer of the brethren , or even condemn his brother to death by his own hand /power , but we know by the scriptures even Abel being dead , his blood still cries out from the earth [ground]
and Cain was no longer in Gods favor and seeing this also as Gods protection and care , as His ''punishment '' a curse came upon him
he said he was Not able to bear ,all this by letting sin rule his heart and being banished from Gods sight
when making his place in the land of Nod The name Nod comes from the verb נוד (nud) denoting a going back and forth: maybe meaning more clearly'' the land of confusion '' ,
just as Adam was banished out of the garden of Life
east of Eden '' Gods pleasure'' and , for me , Gods protection , this to me it the main reason
many wander in sin sickness and death in this world and life , feeling empty and hollow and incomplete and are in danger of being murdered themselves without Gods hand upon them , this is the reason for the mark on Cain , God in His mercy responded by placing a mark on Cain "lest anyone finding him should kill him" (Genesis 4:15 Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said to him, Therefore whoever slays Cain,
vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold I have considered it being the seven more spirits more wicked than himself when they go out to wander in the dry places seeking ''rest'' and finding none in the new testament witness .
I believe , and this is just my own thoughts , that Cain is the carnal man and killed his brother as also neighbour the spirit man inside and close as a brother in adversity and friend , his own soul /life in the spirit , being the Christ or ANOINTING of belonging to GOD
Our main conflicts comes from the struggle of being
both spiritual in nature and flesh and blood as carnal in nature , pleasing the flesh and not the Spirit being enemies of one another .
Proverbs 17 ...16Why is there a price in the hand of a fool to buy wisdom, When he has no sense? 17A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity. 18A man lacking in sense pledges And becomes guarantor in the presence of his neighbor....
This is getting to long again and am sorry for such lengthy posts :sigh:
I just believe we cannot serve two masters without confusion and conflict within our own selves and judge what is right , we have ''rest'' and peace or we go off into battles over powers and principalities in high places , the very seat of emotions of the heart , where every thing is placed Ecc 3 Only to be separated by the LORD JESUS CHRIST Our advocate and also our judge and High priest
He says, I judge no man / carnal man , whom is condemned/judged already , but if I do judge my judgment is just .
Many miracles and signs were done by the Lord and he said , tell no man , the carnal man can never understand the things of the Spirit of Life
they know earthly things and even those are limited in understanding , His speech to Nicodemus , you are a a ruler of the Jews
and do not understand these earthly things , under the law of Moses ,
I do believe he was referring to having the torah as the Word of God , how can you understand heavenly things , the book of the new testament was to be written in their hearts as true treasures . about being born again by Jesus Christ whom is the Son of God and great High priest and King of'' all things '' pertaining to the heavens and earth and even below . the Kingdom of God was with him teaching Him in THE HOLY SPIRIT =the Light/ knowledge of God in his darkness , night /ignorance by the WORD OF GOD /THE LORD JESUS CHRIST .
Quote from: eaglesway on April 22, 2016, 07:24:21 PM
If UR is true, believing it is hitting the mark. If eternal torment is false, believing it is missing the mark. Our purpose on this site is to promote the truth of the salvation of all through Jesus Christ- which we believe is true and scriptural and for which we make no apology. That was the purpose of the opening post of this thread- to demonstrate that by reason, as well as by the scriptures, God is not well served by a gospel that teaches that His divine nature is fulfilled by the endless and hopeless torment of the majority of His creation. :o)
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:19,20
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will... Ephesians 1:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11
When the last knee bows and the last tongue confesses, His desire will have been accomplished according to His kind intention which He purposed in Christ, the gathering together of all things in heaven and in earth into one in Christ
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28
This was God's purpose from the beginning
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
We are just one stage(the first fruits) in the completion of His purpose in the administration of the fulness of times
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:19-21
Amen !!! :HeartThrob: every tongue shall confess The LORD JESUS Christ !!
...10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW
, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.John 13:13
"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.
John 13:14
Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason,
Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. HE will finish and make a short work in righteousness Romans 9 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Quote from: rosered on April 22, 2016, 07:26:07 PM
QuoteOh, yeah. But there's some dispute about that with linguists. What there doesn't seem to be a dispute about is that the Bible teaches that sin is serious and its end is death and it doesn't make particular distinction on the grounds of, OK you can do that and the end isn't ever going to be death so knock yourself out. Your point on mercy may actually more more relevant than you think. You wanted to kill your living dog for killing your other dog, now you love both dogs and I'm not sure if you were actually in the right had you chosen to kill the dog but I know you'd have ended up with neither of the dogs you love. Even if not in the same ways. What if the dog had been bitter by a venomous spider and died that way? Would you show mercy to the spider?
As you say don't assume you have the right to kill things willy nilly anger, pity or no. God is merciful to us and that is why He often does give us the punishment, death, that our sins deserve. That doesn't mean that sin has magnitude it just means how God balances His mercy against His justice does.
Sin is serious and Leviticus only gives three ways of deal with it, death, expulsion (pretty much as bad) or a sacrificial offering. But an offering had to be faultless and made at the central shine at Shiloh or later Jerusalem, some people were a lot nearer than others, getting there for some was quite a trek with there often quite valuable, because a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice unless it's worth something, offering. It's easy to overlook this fact, I did for a long time, but none of these options are simple they all include loss and effort of the part of all parties.
That was beautiful Chris !!
Thank you for making me see other points besides my own !
I agree with you death is death in the sense we cannot bring back little baby Kezzy in the flesh , but thankful to God for the time to love him those 8 years :HeartThrob:
I can go to him in the Spirit of Life and still find joy in these thoughts of him .. treasures we keep in our hearts .
sin is a serious thing , I do consider Cain when God told him sin was crouching at the door and his desire was to rule over Cain , but that Cain should master over it
I have placed boble hubs many different bible translations saying some what the same in meanings
http://biblehub.com/genesis/4-7.htm (http://biblehub.com/genesis/4-7.htm)
My own understanding of it now is , Cains offering could have been accepted with the right heart , but it seems feeling rejected of the Lord caused him to "fail the test " and become a murderer of the brethren , or even condemn his brother to death by his own hand /power , but we know by the scriptures even Abel being dead , his blood still cries out from the earth [ground]
and Cain was no longer in Gods favor and seeing this also as Gods protection and care , as His "punishment " a curse came upon him
he said he was Not able to bear ,all this by letting sin rule his heart and being banished from Gods sight
when making his place in the land of Nod The name Nod comes from the verb נוד (nud) denoting a going back and forth: maybe meaning more clearly" the land of confusion " ,
just as Adam was banished out of the garden of Life
east of Eden " Gods pleasure" and , for me , Gods protection , this to me it the main reason
many wander in sin sickness and death in this world and life , feeling empty and hollow and incomplete and are in danger of being murdered themselves without Gods hand upon them , this is the reason for the mark on Cain , God in His mercy responded by placing a mark on Cain "lest anyone finding him should kill him" (Genesis 4:15 Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said to him, Therefore whoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold I have considered it being the seven more spirits more wicked than himself when they go out to wander in the dry places seeking "rest" and finding none in the new testament witness .
I believe , and this is just my own thoughts , that Cain is the carnal man and killed his brother as also neighbour the spirit man inside and close as a brother in adversity and friend , his own soul /life in the spirit , being the Christ or ANOINTING of belonging to GOD
Our main conflicts comes from the struggle of being both spiritual in nature and flesh and blood as carnal in nature , pleasing the flesh and not the Spirit being enemies of one another .
Proverbs 17 ...16Why is there a price in the hand of a fool to buy wisdom, When he has no sense? 17A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity. 18A man lacking in sense pledges And becomes guarantor in the presence of his neighbor....
This is getting to long again and am sorry for such lengthy posts :sigh:
I just believe we cannot serve two masters without confusion and conflict within our own selves and judge what is right , we have "rest" and peace or we go off into battles over powers and principalities in high places , the very seat of emotions of the heart , where every thing is placed Ecc 3 Only to be separated by the LORD JESUS CHRIST Our advocate and also our judge and High priest
He says, I judge no man / carnal man , whom is condemned/judged already , but if I do judge my judgment is just .
Many miracles and signs were done by the Lord and he said , tell no man , the carnal man can never understand the things of the Spirit of Life
they know earthly things and even those are limited in understanding , His speech to Nicodemus , you are a a ruler of the Jews
and do not understand these earthly things , under the law of Moses ,
I do believe he was referring to having the torah as the Word of God , how can you understand heavenly things , the book of the new testament was to be written in their hearts as true treasures . about being born again by Jesus Christ whom is the Son of God and great High priest and King of" all things " pertaining to the heavens and earth and even below . the Kingdom of God was with him teaching Him in THE HOLY SPIRIT =the Light/ knowledge of God in his darkness , night /ignorance by the WORD OF GOD /THE LORD JESUS CHRIST .
Thanks, I was a little worried it was a bit critical of you. Me suddenly introducing a spider may have been taking the analogy unnecessarily far, I could maybe have used someone else's dog that wasn't yours of various descriptions. But to be honest that fact is that if you actually don't have it is you to kill the dog, which I suspect you don't, then claiming your motive for not killing it was pity might not be entirely correct even if that's how you understand it.
Though I thank you to be this line of reasoning which you have introduced may have helped me better understand a part of the Bible I had formally struggled with where it reads:
'You shall not pity him, but you shall purge the blood of the innocent from Israel, that it may go well with you.'
There's lots of items in the Deuteronomy like here where God commands Israel to execute some pretty vicious punishments and then says, 'Show no pity' to qualify them. This used to seem a bit off for God to be commanding His people to withhold mercy.
I the context of what we're discussing now I suspect mercy isn't what is a issue here but rather making arbitrary decision about who you might or might not let off (i.e. pity) which would just invite partiality.
It didn't not Bible hub before, although one comment that shouldn't need mentioning but should be in case is that most Bible are ET translations that have ET cross-references.
I would also agree that if Cain had had a right heart his offering would have been accepted. But if he'd had a right heart he'd probably have given a better offering.
Understanding that 'death' feeling you describe though and as far as I know I've never murdered anyone. Though I must have several other sins which seem to be weighing the same, though I can't really know because I don't know Cain's mind.
I suspect that seven-fold vengeance may have come back around later in the form of the great flood.
Just for clarification how are you understanding the term 'torah' here. Torah = Pentateuch or Torah = Tanak? Don't think it matters to what you're saying but I'm curious to what your thinking here.
QuoteThanks, I was a little worried it was a bit critical of you. Me suddenly introducing a spider may have been taking the analogy unnecessarily far, I could maybe have used someone else's dog that wasn't yours of various descriptions. But to be honest that fact is that if you actually don't have it is you to kill the dog, which I suspect you don't, then claiming your motive for not killing it was pity might not be entirely correct even if that's how you understand it.
Though I thank you to be this line of reasoning which you have introduced may have helped me better understand a part of the Bible I had formally struggled with where it reads:
'You shall not pity him, but you shall purge the blood of the innocent from Israel, that it may go well with you.'
There's lots of items in the Deuteronomy like here where God commands Israel to execute some pretty vicious punishments and then says, 'Show no pity' to qualify them. This used to seem a bit off for God to be commanding His people to withhold mercy.
I the context of what we're discussing now I suspect mercy isn't what is a issue here but rather making arbitrary decision about who you might or might not let off (i.e. pity) which would just invite partiality.
It didn't not Bible hub before, although one comment that shouldn't need mentioning but should be in case is that most Bible are ET translations that have ET cross-references.
I would also agree that if Cain had had a right heart his offering would have been accepted. But if he'd had a right heart he'd probably have given a better offering.
Understanding that 'death' feeling you describe though and as far as I know I've never murdered anyone. Though I must have several other sins which seem to be weighing the same, though I can't really know because I don't know Cain's mind.
I suspect that seven-fold vengeance may have come back around later in the form of the great flood.
Just for clarification how are you understanding the term 'torah' here. Torah = Pentateuch or Torah = Tanak? Don't think it matters to what you're saying but I'm curious to what your thinking here.
Thanks Chris ! :dsunny:
I appreciate you trying to understand my speech and I you as well .
I do believe we agree on many things , but the crude ways of writing limit our abilities
I was never a writer and grammar errors and such things can be annoying .
and those LOOOONG drawn out posts lol .. :laughing7:
No Not at all , a spider might have been easier to kill :laughing7:
and a different lesson in that for sure .
Just as these people , may be symbolic of evil breeding more evil and cut them off , and have no pity on evil doing .
My own thinking is we are more than just one little tiny human being trying to figure out God .
I know the Bible when eating it and consuming it as we do , consumes us also , may be God telling us deal with them same evil breeding ''people'' within you !
This sounds like a real nut case way of seeing the WORD OF GOD within you , but for me it so personal and specific that way
How can the Christ be within you and not all them other things as well ?
I had to analyze it for what it meant to me ,
just as the Torah , being the two tables of stone and writing them laws down with His own finger , that God chose to send a man up to a high mountain and deal with many peoples ?
What if , and this is just a ''what if '' we are walking the Word of God out in our own lives in a personal level and not so much a broad and gathered lot of everyone else ?
For me it has made my heart open to receive and relate and care and love all those whom we can see how much God has proved Himself and lastly in His SON the true Light of the word and its full effect to still experience completely .
Which is within us all , I can kind of see the Bible as more of a mirror now and the light that is shining on the mirror is much brighter than when I first looked into the deep and dark mystery of knowing God .
that reflection was my own face seeing God , in total darkness and ignorance of Who or what is God? and what is Love ? and What is Spirit ?
and where is all this power of God at ? the ten thousand questions and no real answers and truthfully a scared and timid child in many many ways
and it all boils down to how we think , when you fear ET and not God than you know your in trouble , Fearing God is the beginning of Wisdom , we all should know all to well by the scriptures what happens when disobedient children go off to play together , they are usually up to trouble lol
I have finally found some rest in hope and peace that was never ever able to have before God started dealing with me on a personal level .
My biggest mistake was trying to find God outside my own heart , He was there all the time just waiting for me to wear myself out trying to find Him
Acts 17 comforted me after knowing what I had been doing WRONG ...
JESUS CHRIST to me rises up in our own hearts and does draw all men unto HIMSELF when we lift Him up in thanksgiving and praise and love . what is within us and what can be from others also Lifting up the Holy heavens and all that is found in them from the earth /our mortal bodies .
So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.[ BAD IDEA ] :dontknow:
For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship,
I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what
you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth,
does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth
, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
We are to call no man uncommon or unclean , now that Christ has done His work and we are his children , some have not risen yet , but are being formed within each and every vessel of honor and dishonor , believe it or not all things do glorify God , what could we compare it to without the dishonor which we have also carried within our own vessels also ? GOD will do all the separating of what was held within us and we will even be surprised at the glory of God in the end I long for that DAY!!! :HeartThrob:
.
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 08:01:33 PM
I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock.
Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".
All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.
When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.
"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."
"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.
In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.
I think what is meant by all sin being equal, is that, in God's justice, which is perfect, any turning away from Him, even biting an apple, is cause for 'death', because we have gone against our creator, and not done His will, and did our own, instead. We have rebelled and basically told God, that His rules are not going to be our rules. We denied Him as being our source of Good and Evil.
In terms of reflection on society, and what is more detrimental, that seems to have a different perspective.
Just my :2c:
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on April 25, 2016, 02:36:46 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 08:01:33 PM
I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock.
Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".
All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.
When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.
"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."
"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.
In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.
I think what is meant by all sin being equal, is that, in God's justice, which is perfect, any turning away from Him, even biting an apple, is cause for 'death', because we have gone against our creator, and not done His will, and did our own, instead. We have rebelled and basically told God, that His rules are not going to be our rules. We denied Him as being our source of Good and Evil.
In terms of reflection on society, and what is more detrimental, that seems to have a different perspective.
Just my :2c:
D.
I so oooooooooooo :iagree:
Both of you
we are all trying to understand some key words , what is sin ? what is the deeds we do to deny Him exactly ?
Why does our hearts betray us ?
and Him knowing fully all our hearts and thoughts divide us within ourselves so many times we are put to the test ?
You both gave some great answers . and can only say also ,
to me it is simple as GOD WILL DIVIDE with His Own Sword of Truth , just what
remains and what
must be done away with in Christ .
GOD definitely has it all figured out already , we just wait on Him ,till He lets us know personally what offends .
Matt 15 What Defiles a Man
...11"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."
12 Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"
But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father
did not plant shall be uprooted....
I don't know about others, but for me ..... "sin" is the action taken by a persons spirit, whose heart has been corrupted by being filled with lies by the carnal mind ...... manifested through our physical body, through action or word
In short ..... sin is the action taken because of unbelief
In the garden, they did not believe what the Father said would happen, their unbelief of "The Word" of God .... as the Truth .... "that they would die"
The seed of unbelief conceives the serpent
They cannot enter his rest because of unbelief
Does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of the Father? may it never be
and that is why our Lord, our Savior is awesome
my :2c:
Quote from: rosered on April 23, 2016, 08:08:24 PM
QuoteThanks, I was a little worried it was a bit critical of you. Me suddenly introducing a spider may have been taking the analogy unnecessarily far, I could maybe have used someone else's dog that wasn't yours of various descriptions. But to be honest that fact is that if you actually don't have it is you to kill the dog, which I suspect you don't, then claiming your motive for not killing it was pity might not be entirely correct even if that's how you understand it.
Though I thank you to be this line of reasoning which you have introduced may have helped me better understand a part of the Bible I had formally struggled with where it reads:
'You shall not pity him, but you shall purge the blood of the innocent from Israel, that it may go well with you.'
There's lots of items in the Deuteronomy like here where God commands Israel to execute some pretty vicious punishments and then says, 'Show no pity' to qualify them. This used to seem a bit off for God to be commanding His people to withhold mercy.
I the context of what we're discussing now I suspect mercy isn't what is a issue here but rather making arbitrary decision about who you might or might not let off (i.e. pity) which would just invite partiality.
It didn't not Bible hub before, although one comment that shouldn't need mentioning but should be in case is that most Bible are ET translations that have ET cross-references.
I would also agree that if Cain had had a right heart his offering would have been accepted. But if he'd had a right heart he'd probably have given a better offering.
Understanding that 'death' feeling you describe though and as far as I know I've never murdered anyone. Though I must have several other sins which seem to be weighing the same, though I can't really know because I don't know Cain's mind.
I suspect that seven-fold vengeance may have come back around later in the form of the great flood.
Just for clarification how are you understanding the term 'torah' here. Torah = Pentateuch or Torah = Tanak? Don't think it matters to what you're saying but I'm curious to what your thinking here.
Thanks Chris ! :dsunny:
I appreciate you trying to understand my speech and I you as well .
I do believe we agree on many things , but the crude ways of writing limit our abilities
I was never a writer and grammar errors and such things can be annoying .
and those LOOOONG drawn out posts lol .. :laughing7:
No Not at all , a spider might have been easier to kill :laughing7:
and a different lesson in that for sure .
Just as these people , may be symbolic of evil breeding more evil and cut them off , and have no pity on evil doing .
My own thinking is we are more than just one little tiny human being trying to figure out God .
I know the Bible when eating it and consuming it as we do , consumes us also , may be God telling us deal with them same evil breeding "people" within you !
This sounds like a real nut case way of seeing the WORD OF GOD within you , but for me it so personal and specific that way
How can the Christ be within you and not all them other things as well ?
I had to analyze it for what it meant to me ,
just as the Torah , being the two tables of stone and writing them laws down with His own finger , that God chose to send a man up to a high mountain and deal with many peoples ?
What if , and this is just a "what if " we are walking the Word of God out in our own lives in a personal level and not so much a broad and gathered lot of everyone else ?
For me it has made my heart open to receive and relate and care and love all those whom we can see how much God has proved Himself and lastly in His SON the true Light of the word and its full effect to still experience completely .
Which is within us all , I can kind of see the Bible as more of a mirror now and the light that is shining on the mirror is much brighter than when I first looked into the deep and dark mystery of knowing God .
that reflection was my own face seeing God , in total darkness and ignorance of Who or what is God? and what is Love ? and What is Spirit ?
and where is all this power of God at ? the ten thousand questions and no real answers and truthfully a scared and timid child in many many ways
and it all boils down to how we think , when you fear ET and not God than you know your in trouble , Fearing God is the beginning of Wisdom , we all should know all to well by the scriptures what happens when disobedient children go off to play together , they are usually up to trouble lol
I have finally found some rest in hope and peace that was never ever able to have before God started dealing with me on a personal level .
My biggest mistake was trying to find God outside my own heart , He was there all the time just waiting for me to wear myself out trying to find Him
Acts 17 comforted me after knowing what I had been doing WRONG ...
JESUS CHRIST to me rises up in our own hearts and does draw all men unto HIMSELF when we lift Him up in thanksgiving and praise and love . what is within us and what can be from others also Lifting up the Holy heavens and all that is found in them from the earth /our mortal bodies .
So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.[ BAD IDEA ] :dontknow:
For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship,
I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth
, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
We are to call no man uncommon or unclean , now that Christ has done His work and we are his children , some have not risen yet , but are being formed within each and every vessel of honor and dishonor , believe it or not all things do glorify God , what could we compare it to without the dishonor which we have also carried within our own vessels also ? GOD will do all the separating of what was held within us and we will even be surprised at the glory of God in the end I long for that DAY!!! :HeartThrob:
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Thanks, I think I may have to give this post much thought. I think you may have misunderstood how I was understanding the use of the term translated 'pity' in Deuteronomy, not that that's that's difficult have you seen how many words for 'mercy' and 'pity' are in the Hebrew? I suspect you may have.
I don't think the Torah is the two tablets of stone, when last I checked it was the Pentateuch or have I got you wrong?
But yes we must keep God in our :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: first. Otherwise He is not alive to us anywhere.
Quote from: Dandelion on April 25, 2016, 02:36:46 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on April 20, 2016, 08:01:33 PM
I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock.
Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".
All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.
When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.
"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."
"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".
It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.
In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.
I think what is meant by all sin being equal, is that, in God's justice, which is perfect, any turning away from Him, even biting an apple, is cause for 'death', because we have gone against our creator, and not done His will, and did our own, instead. We have rebelled and basically told God, that His rules are not going to be our rules. We denied Him as being our source of Good and Evil.
In terms of reflection on society, and what is more detrimental, that seems to have a different perspective.
Just my :2c:
D.
Pretty much, though I'm not sure I'd call all those things sin. We are meant to eat apples but it is a good point. But that said 1 John does suggest some sort of distinction in something it's just not necessarily clear what it is.
Very true. Although I'm also trying to understand how God who made everything could end up with plants He didn't plant.
Quote from: jugghead on April 26, 2016, 02:17:50 AM
I don't know about others, but for me ..... "sin" is the action taken by a persons spirit, whose heart has been corrupted by being filled with lies by the carnal mind ...... manifested through our physical body, through action or word
In short ..... sin is the action taken because of unbelief
In the garden, they did not believe what the Father said would happen, their unbelief of "The Word" of God .... as the Truth .... "that they would die"
The seed of unbelief conceives the serpent
They cannot enter his rest because of unbelief
Does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of the Father? may it never be
and that is why our Lord, our Savior is awesome
my :2c:
To me ultimately, sin is just stuff that's liable to trip you up. If it's missing the mark it presupposes you are aiming for the mark. Presumably then it's like going after good thing by very bad methods, or some such.
Quote from: CST on April 26, 2016, 08:14:40 PM
Quote from: jugghead on April 26, 2016, 02:17:50 AM
I don't know about others, but for me ..... "sin" is the action taken by a persons spirit, whose heart has been corrupted by being filled with lies by the carnal mind ...... manifested through our physical body, through action or word
In short ..... sin is the action taken because of unbelief
In the garden, they did not believe what the Father said would happen, their unbelief of "The Word" of God .... as the Truth .... "that they would die"
The seed of unbelief conceives the serpent
They cannot enter his rest because of unbelief
Does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of the Father? may it never be
and that is why our Lord, our Savior is awesome
my :2c:
To me ultimately, sin is just stuff that's liable to trip you up. If it's missing the mark it presupposes you are aiming for the mark. Presumably then it's like going after good thing by very bad methods, or some such.
We said the same thing, just in different words .....
It is peoples unbelief that all things already belong to them and they have the mindset of trying to obtain what is already theirs,
which in your words "going after good things by very bad methods"
Which is just another way to say "trying to obtain things of the Spirit (good things) by the works of the flesh (very bad methods)."
We are of the same mind, the mind of Christ, just different words because we are all also individuals (individual bodies of Christ as well as the corporate body of Christ).
No, my presumption doesn't hold that people already own want they want or even believe that they do, it holds they they want it so much they go to nutty, dangerous, harmful lengths to get those things. I can't even believe myself I own all things, if I do why can't I find what I'm after. I can't remember, at this time, anywhere in the Bible where it says I own all things. I don't feel like I do.
Quote from: CST on April 27, 2016, 07:47:17 PM
No, my presumption doesn't hold that people already own want they want or even believe that they do, it holds they they want it so much they go to nutty, dangerous, harmful lengths to get those things. I can't even believe myself I own all things, if I do why can't I find what I'm after. I can't remember, at this time, anywhere in the Bible where it says I own all things. I don't feel like I do.
Are you referring to owning physical things or spiritual things?
Therefore let no man glory in men.
For all things are yours; (1 Corinthians 3:21)
As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing,
and yet possessing all things. (2 Corinthians 6:10)
'For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?' (Matthew 16:26)
I have thought unless a man hasn't got the world he wouldn't need to try to gain the world.
I take it that would be physical things. The 'all things' in the scriptures you've provided don't seem to make any sort of distinction. The minute you make one I fear ET and ED proponents could use it against us.
Quote from: CST on April 28, 2016, 09:47:46 PM
'For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?' (Matthew 16:26)
I have thought unless a man hasn't got the world he wouldn't need to try to gain the world.
I take it that would be physical things. The 'all things' in the scriptures you've provided don't seem to make any sort of distinction. The minute you make one I fear ET and ED proponents could use it against us.
Yes, I agree, which is why we rely on His Spirit to reveal the truth in us. "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word the proceeds from the mouth of God"
For me, to possess all physical things is not a matter of owning them for the pleasure of the flesh but for the purpose of Him revealing the Spiritual implications of what they represent in us.
I believe that since God is infinite, to rely on only the written word (bread) we are not hearing the words proceeding from the mouth of the Father (the Spirit of the Word), which is HIS understanding of His Word, not the understanding of men.
Blessings
Very true, though I'm pretty sure we live - or at least subsist if that's better (it might be worse) - on actually food too; we were made to do so and gave us all the plants for food (well that can't be literal more than one species is genuinely poisonous).
But I agree on what you say in the main phrase, though I suspect we're not likely to avoid pleasure of the flesh entirely. Eating foods we enjoy is pleasurable, feeding our actual hunger is legitimate and I don't think God opposes or is offended by this in any way of its self. I do expect He is offended when He looks and sees us eating to ridiculous extremes and then looks elsewhere and sees other people who can't find to basic food they need. Would that be part of revealing those spiritual implications you're driving at?
Deciding that 'bread' means the written word is a very specific interpretation. I took the written word simply to be the record of the spoken word. After all the term 'bread' in the original context refers to manna and learning to be obedient to the delivery of manna which was real food so far as can be understood. But spiritual meaning are always better than the 'on the page' readings. Well, maybe better is too singular, I think I'm developing my understanding of what you say as I type. :smile: I hope I am.
CST Quote:
Very true, though I'm pretty sure we live - or at least subsist if that's better (it might be worse) - on actually food too; we were made to do so and gave us all the plants for food (well that can't be literal more than one species is genuinely poisonous).
But I agree on what you say in the main phrase, though I suspect we're not likely to avoid pleasure of the flesh entirely (Yes because we die daily). Eating foods we enjoy is pleasurable, feeding our actual hunger is legitimate and I don't think God opposes or is offended by this in any way of its self (agreed). I do expect He is offended when He looks and sees us eating to ridiculous extremes and then looks elsewhere and sees other people who can't find to basic food they need. Would that be part of revealing those spiritual implications you're driving at? (Yes)
Deciding that 'bread' means the written word is a very specific interpretation. I took the written word simply to be the record of the spoken word. After all the term 'bread' in the original context refers to manna and learning to be obedient to the delivery of manna which was real food so far as can be understood. But spiritual meaning are always better than the 'on the page' readings (Yes, this is the context in which I understand bread, when the bread comes alive it becomes a living fountain). Well, maybe better is too singular, I think I'm developing my understanding of what you say as I type (He constantly does that with me, it is what keeps me writing). :smile: I hope I am.
End CST quote
Blessings brother
hi! I think of "missing the mark" the greek translated "sin" - and why in a sense all sin is 'equal' (but not equal in badness - logic is related to the word / logos).. missing the mark in that God (surely?) is life itslef and is also perfection.. so imperfection is the opposite of life.. and any turning from Him.. or disagreeeing with what He chooses in any teeny, tiny way, still results in imperfection (missing the mark of perfection) which is the opposite of God/life. So large or small sin (flaw) has the same result. "The result of sin (missing the mark of perfection) is death" also opposite of life. (Logic)
'Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect".. though we will not be, until Jesus' return and we put on incorruption and immortality-(negative particle "freedom from death- G110")
...before the curse (results, consequences) of the disobedience in Eden, there were, I would think, no poisonous plants.. so perhaps "all" were for food... What a joy it would be to garden w/o weeds and thorns!! :gsmile:
Quote from: jugghead on April 30, 2016, 01:44:06 AM
CST Quote:
Very true, though I'm pretty sure we live - or at least subsist if that's better (it might be worse) - on actually food too; we were made to do so and gave us all the plants for food (well that can't be literal more than one species is genuinely poisonous).
But I agree on what you say in the main phrase, though I suspect we're not likely to avoid pleasure of the flesh entirely (Yes because we die daily). Eating foods we enjoy is pleasurable, feeding our actual hunger is legitimate and I don't think God opposes or is offended by this in any way of its self (agreed). I do expect He is offended when He looks and sees us eating to ridiculous extremes and then looks elsewhere and sees other people who can't find to basic food they need. Would that be part of revealing those spiritual implications you're driving at? (Yes)
Deciding that 'bread' means the written word is a very specific interpretation. I took the written word simply to be the record of the spoken word. After all the term 'bread' in the original context refers to manna and learning to be obedient to the delivery of manna which was real food so far as can be understood. But spiritual meaning are always better than the 'on the page' readings (Yes, this is the context in which I understand bread, when the bread comes alive it becomes a living fountain). Well, maybe better is too singular, I think I'm developing my understanding of what you say as I type (He constantly does that with me, it is what keeps me writing). :smile: I hope I am.
End CST quote
Blessings brother
Sorry, I've muffed that a bit and so misled you a little. I was supposed to write: though I suspect we're not likely
expected to avoid pleasure of the flesh entirely which, of course means something entirely different. Fortunately I think the rest of the context preserves the intent.
Wow, I wasn't thinking of of bread turning into water which would be a spectacularly mixed metaphor. The bread is utterly dry, not a good source of water. But I imagine the principle remains the same. The bread would be the literal meaning the rest the multiple deeper meanings. I not sure anything's changed but I feel metaphors need to connect to each other and I can't process bread turning into water, the wine/blood could do that. I suppose I would thus accept the bread/flesh as the living part, except the life is in the blood/wine. :sigh: Very confusing. I fear I'm undeveloping my thought now.
Bless you back.
Quote from: marie glen on April 30, 2016, 06:21:22 AM
hi! I think of "missing the mark" the greek translated "sin" - and why in a sense all sin is 'equal' (but not equal in badness - logic is related to the word / logos).. missing the mark in that God (surely?) is life itslef and is also perfection.. so imperfection is the opposite of life.. and any turning from Him.. or disagreeeing with what He chooses in any teeny, tiny way, still results in imperfection (missing the mark of perfection) which is the opposite of God/life. So large or small sin (flaw) has the same result. "The result of sin (missing the mark of perfection) is death" also opposite of life. (Logic)
'Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect".. though we will not be, until Jesus' return and we put on incorruption and immortality-(negative particle "freedom from death- G110")
...before the curse (results, consequences) of the disobedience in Eden, there were, I would think, no poisonous plants.. so perhaps "all" were for food... What a joy it would be to garden w/o weeds and thorns!! :gsmile:
Hmm, I remain conflicted on this because the concept of sin is complicated while the picture of 'missing the mark' is easy. I imagine a target and shoot for the bulls-eye. Now I can hit the bulls-eye (the mark) or the inner ring, or the outer or the outer ring or not hit the target at all. All missing the mark but to increasingly greater degrees. But sin isn't like that. Lots of people can commit the same sins as each other but in practice the attitude they have to the fact they have sinned, of course, also makes a difference to their character and thus how God has to respond to them. Gauging this is very hard.
I don't believe for a second their were no poisonous plants before the fall because that implies a form of magic not recorded in the Bible. I do believe it possible human's either had a better instinct about them or they weren't anywhere the man and woman would have been expected to go prior to the fall, ie there were none in Eden and they were only in the world outside.
When is a weed not a weed? When it's appreciated.