An Inhuman God

[eaglesway]

I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock. 

Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".

All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.

When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.

"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."

"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.

In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.

[rosered]

 :thumbsup:
Love One Another  1JOHN 3 
...19We will know by this that we are of the truth,

and will assure our heart before Him

20in whatever our heart condemns us;

for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;...

[CST]

I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock. 

Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".

All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.

When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.

"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."

"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.

In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.

I'm not sure I think you may be conflating sin with crime. As I recall all those offenses had different punishments but I think they had the same sin offering and guilt offering, I'm pretty sure one always had to be given unless the punishment was death maybe.

The problem I see here is that 'sin' has become a word for any offense in a religious context it's not a word found in the original language of the Bible and the one we often translate as such isn't that common in works like Leviticus, it's mainly attached to phrases like 'sin offering' as I recall. I'm kind of of the impression that sin is a word we apply to all sorts in the Bible improperly. Real sin is a big deal, that's why Jesus had to give His life to solve the problem.

[jugghead]

Does anyone believe that there is a difference between physical sin and spiritual sin? Because I do. religion says to take the name of the Lord in vain is to use His name as a cuss word .....

but when we come to the understanding that when the Father speaks of the word "name" it is speaking of His nature and "in vain", I believe is vanity .....

Therefore, the way I understand it is "to take the name of the Lord in vain" is "to take the nature of the Father in vanity"

Cussing is a physical sin through ignorance

"Taking the nature of the Father in vanity" is a spiritual sin through ignorance

His nature is Love :HeartThrob: and to take it in vanity is to say He will not save all. :eek:

my  :2c:

[rosered]

 
  Hi CST ,
   I hope to give a real life example   of   mercy on the guilty

  This  is just a  example  mind you .

  I had a little Pomeranian    I loved  and was very close to me  and I protected it often  from everything  and had it for 8 years   and was like a  2 year old  child to me in many ways  , but one day   early in the morning  around 4 am   my hubby let it out to go pee   and   I should have went with him  as many times before    but got too busy ,  so  the other  dog  a mixed  ,  we adopted   2 years  ago    killed him  .

My first thought   was to kill him  , a strong emotion of rage . but I could not kill anything  , even in that rage  , I could not do it .

  Why rage than ?      I loved that  loyal  little  fellow  and his personality was   HUGE    and filled a lot of   empty  and missing  places in my own heart .
   just filled them up  with  caring for him and  him me ,in other ways  with purpose

But I could never love this other dog in the same ways  ,because  he was not loyal or trusting  at all   and kind of a nuisance  , skittish  and nerveous type

  but had pity on him .

I still had pity on him even after  he killed my  little  '' peg legs '' or squirrel head    , those fond pet names   I gave him

   The WORD OF GOD is feed your enemies and love those whom  harm you and  mistreat you here ,
   I thought  yes Lord, even dogs have a breath of life in them   and feelings too .


This just happened  April 1st  and so was the lesson .
You have the power to kill and destroy , but cannot bring back   that life   from the dead , ONLY GOD HAS  that right   , the best we can do is keep the memories alive

What has this to do with sin ?
  the scriptures call sin , error and missing the mark   ,

  I do believe     hitting  the mark is to  have the mind of Christ , obedience and not sacrifices for sin    and   God stamping His seal  of approval   on you   , as He  owns  you now

  and Keeps you  as His own .

Missing it means you are still out there wandering in the world  looking for  somthing to fill the void  in you  , which was Gods love all along   you needed and  never  even knew it      , missing out on the   Love of God in the here and now .

  I may sound silly to some , but God knows  all our hearts  , He made us after all , for His glory  .

 



   

[rosered]

Does anyone believe that there is a difference between physical sin and spiritual sin? Because I do. religion says to take the name of the Lord in vain is to use His name as a cuss word .....

but when we come to the understanding that when the Father speaks of the word "name" it is speaking of His nature and "in vain", I believe is vanity .....

Therefore, the way I understand it is "to take the name of the Lord in vain" is "to take the nature of the Father in vanity"

Cussing is a physical sin through ignorance

"Taking the nature of the Father in vanity" is a spiritual sin through ignorance

His nature is Love :HeartThrob: and to take it in vanity is to say He will not save all. :eek:

my  :2c:

:thumbsup:   :dsunny:     
Truth    :HeartThrob: 

[CST]

Does anyone believe that there is a difference between physical sin and spiritual sin? Because I do. religion says to take the name of the Lord in vain is to use His name as a cuss word .....

but when we come to the understanding that when the Father speaks of the word "name" it is speaking of His nature and "in vain", I believe is vanity .....

Therefore, the way I understand it is "to take the name of the Lord in vain" is "to take the nature of the Father in vanity"

Cussing is a physical sin through ignorance

"Taking the nature of the Father in vanity" is a spiritual sin through ignorance

His nature is Love :HeartThrob: and to take it in vanity is to say He will not save all. :eek:

my  :2c:

The commandment says God will not pardon anyone who misuses his name which technically isn't in vain that's just how the KJV renders it. It's basically falsely or improperly. To me the church has co-opted the commandment (which in context refers to the name 'YHWH') to scare and control people who mutter at God word in times or emotional stress. It's not for us to judge on their motives for calling on the God.

Do I believe there's a difference between physical a spiritual sin? Possibly, that doesn't mean the weight is that difference.

[CST]

  Hi CST ,
   I hope to give a real life example   of   mercy on the guilty

  This  is just a  example  mind you .

  I had a little Pomeranian    I loved  and was very close to me  and I protected it often  from everything  and had it for 8 years   and was like a  2 year old  child to me in many ways  , but one day   early in the morning  around 4 am   my hubby let it out to go pee   and   I should have went with him  as many times before    but got too busy ,  so  the other  dog  a mixed  ,  we adopted   2 years  ago    killed him  .

My first thought   was to kill him  , a strong emotion of rage . but I could not kill anything  , even in that rage  , I could not do it .

  Why rage than ?      I loved that  loyal  little  fellow  and his personality was   HUGE    and filled a lot of   empty  and missing  places in my own heart .
   just filled them up  with  caring for him and  him me ,in other ways  with purpose

But I could never love this other dog in the same ways  ,because  he was not loyal or trusting  at all   and kind of a nuisance  , skittish  and nerveous type

  but had pity on him .

I still had pity on him even after  he killed my  little  " peg legs " or squirrel head    , those fond pet names   I gave him

   The WORD OF GOD is feed your enemies and love those whom  harm you and  mistreat you here ,
   I thought  yes Lord, even dogs have a breath of life in them   and feelings too .


This just happened  April 1st  and so was the lesson .
You have the power to kill and destroy , but cannot bring back   that life   from the dead , ONLY GOD HAS  that right   , the best we can do is keep the memories alive

What has this to do with sin ?
  the scriptures call sin , error and missing the mark   ,

  I do believe     hitting  the mark is to  have the mind of Christ , obedience and not sacrifices for sin    and   God stamping His seal  of approval   on you   , as He  owns  you now

  and Keeps you  as His own .

Missing it means you are still out there wandering in the world  looking for  somthing to fill the void  in you  , which was Gods love all along   you needed and  never  even knew it      , missing out on the   Love of God in the here and now .

  I may sound silly to some , but God knows  all our hearts  , He made us after all , for His glory  .

 

Oh, yeah. But there's some dispute about that with linguists. What there doesn't seem to be a dispute about is that the Bible teaches that sin is serious and its end is death and it doesn't make particular distinction on the grounds of, OK you can do that and the end isn't ever going to be death so knock yourself out. Your point on mercy may actually more more relevant than you think. You wanted to kill your living dog for killing your other dog, now you love both dogs and I'm not sure if you were actually in the right had you chosen to kill the dog but I know you'd have ended up with neither of the dogs you love. Even if not in the same ways. What if the dog had been bitter by a venomous spider and died that way? Would you show mercy to the spider?

As you say don't assume you have the right to kill things willy nilly anger, pity or no. God is merciful to us and that is why He often does give us the punishment, death, that our sins deserve. That doesn't mean that sin has magnitude it just means how God balances His mercy against His justice does.

Sin is serious and Leviticus only gives three ways of deal with it, death, expulsion (pretty much as bad) or a sacrificial offering. But an offering had to be faultless and made at the central shine at Shiloh or later Jerusalem, some people were a lot nearer than others, getting there for some was quite a trek with there often quite valuable, because a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice unless it's worth something, offering. It's easy to overlook this fact, I did for a long time, but none of these options are simple they all include loss and effort of the part of all parties.

Gah, I don't like that I sound like an ET fundamentalist there.

[eaglesway]

If UR is true, believing it is hitting the mark. If eternal torment is false, believing it is missing the mark. Our purpose on this site is to promote the truth of the salvation of all through Jesus Christ- which we believe is true and scriptural and for which we make no apology. That was the purpose of the opening post of this thread- to demonstrate that by reason, as well as by the scriptures, God is not well served by a gospel that teaches that His divine nature is fulfilled by the endless and hopeless torment of the majority of His creation. :o)

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:19,20

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will... Ephesians 1:9-11

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11

When the last knee bows and the last tongue confesses, His desire will have been accomplished according to His kind intention which He purposed in Christ, the gathering together of all things in heaven and in earth into one in Christ

28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28

This was God's purpose from the beginning

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

We are just one stage(the first fruits) in the completion of His purpose in the administration of the fulness of times

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:19-21


The whole creation restored- that is the gospel Peter proclaimed on the day of Pentecost

19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

[rosered]

Oh, yeah. But there's some dispute about that with linguists. What there doesn't seem to be a dispute about is that the Bible teaches that sin is serious and its end is death and it doesn't make particular distinction on the grounds of, OK you can do that and the end isn't ever going to be death so knock yourself out. Your point on mercy may actually more more relevant than you think. You wanted to kill your living dog for killing your other dog, now you love both dogs and I'm not sure if you were actually in the right had you chosen to kill the dog but I know you'd have ended up with neither of the dogs you love. Even if not in the same ways. What if the dog had been bitter by a venomous spider and died that way? Would you show mercy to the spider?

As you say don't assume you have the right to kill things willy nilly anger, pity or no. God is merciful to us and that is why He often does give us the punishment, death, that our sins deserve. That doesn't mean that sin has magnitude it just means how God balances His mercy against His justice does.

Sin is serious and Leviticus only gives three ways of deal with it, death, expulsion (pretty much as bad) or a sacrificial offering. But an offering had to be faultless and made at the central shine at Shiloh or later Jerusalem, some people were a lot nearer than others, getting there for some was quite a trek with there often quite valuable, because a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice unless it's worth something, offering. It's easy to overlook this fact, I did for a long time, but none of these options are simple they all include loss and effort of the part of all parties.

  That was beautiful Chris !! 

  Thank you for   making me see other points besides my own !

I  agree with you death is death in the sense we  cannot bring back      little    baby  Kezzy  in the flesh  , but thankful   to God for the time to love him   those 8 years  :HeartThrob:

I can go to him in the Spirit of Life and still find joy in these  thoughts of him ..  treasures  we keep in our hearts .


sin is a serious   thing , I do    consider  Cain when God told him sin was crouching at the door and his desire   was to rule over   Cain , but    that Cain should master  over it

I have placed    boble hubs many different    bible translations    saying some what the same   in meanings

http://biblehub.com/genesis/4-7.htm


  My   own understanding of it now is   , Cains offering could have been accepted  with the right    heart  , but  it seems  feeling rejected of the Lord caused him to ''fail the test '' and become a murderer of the brethren , or even  condemn his brother   to death  by his own hand /power   , but we know by the  scriptures even  Abel being dead  , his blood still cries out   from the earth [ground]   
and   Cain was no longer in Gods favor  and seeing this also as Gods protection and care  , as His    ''punishment ''  a curse came  upon him

  he said he was Not able to bear ,all this by  letting sin rule his  heart and  being banished from Gods sight   

when  making his place in the land of Nod   The name Nod comes from the verb נוד (nud) denoting a going back and forth:    maybe meaning  more clearly'' the land of confusion '' ,

  just as Adam was   banished out of the garden of Life   


   east of Eden  ''   Gods pleasure'' and   , for me ,  Gods protection ,  this to me it the main   reason   

  many wander  in sin sickness and  death    in this world and life  ,  feeling  empty and hollow and incomplete   and are in danger of being murdered themselves without Gods hand upon them ,    this is the reason for the mark on Cain  , God in His mercy responded by placing a mark on Cain "lest anyone finding him should kill him" (Genesis 4:15 Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said to him, Therefore whoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold    I have considered it being the   seven more spirits more wicked than  himself when   they go out to wander in the dry places seeking ''rest''  and   finding none  in the new testament   witness .

  I believe  , and this is just my own thoughts  , that Cain is the carnal man   and killed his    brother    as  also neighbour    the spirit man inside and  close  as a brother   in adversity  and friend     , his own soul /life in the spirit  , being the  Christ or ANOINTING   of  belonging to  GOD   
Our main conflicts comes   from the struggle of  being    both spiritual  in  nature  and flesh and blood  as carnal  in nature  , pleasing the  flesh and not the Spirit   being enemies of one another .

Proverbs 17 ...16Why is there a price in the hand of a fool to buy wisdom, When he has no sense? 17A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity. 18A man lacking in sense pledges And becomes guarantor in the presence of his neighbor....

  This is getting to long again   and am sorry for such lengthy  posts  :sigh:
I just believe we cannot serve two masters without  confusion   and conflict within  our own selves and    judge what is right , we have ''rest''   and peace or   we go off into   battles  over powers and principalities in high places   , the very seat of  emotions of the heart   , where every thing is    placed   Ecc 3  Only to be separated by   the LORD JESUS CHRIST    Our advocate    and also  our judge   and High priest 
  He says, I judge no man   / carnal man ,  whom is condemned/judged  already , but if I do judge my judgment is just .

Many  miracles and signs were done by the Lord  and he said  , tell no man   ,  the carnal man can never understand the things of the Spirit of Life
  they know earthly things   and even those are   limited  in understanding    ,  His  speech to Nicodemus ,   you are a   a ruler of the Jews
  and do not  understand   these  earthly things , under the  law of Moses     ,

I do believe he was referring to   having the torah  as   the Word of God ,  how can you understand   heavenly things , the book of the new  testament    was  to be written in their hearts  as  true  treasures .  about being  born again   by Jesus Christ whom is the   Son of God   and  great High priest and King of'' all things ''    pertaining    to the heavens and earth and even below    .  the Kingdom of God was with  him   teaching Him  in  THE  HOLY SPIRIT   =the Light/ knowledge of God   in his  darkness  , night /ignorance   by the WORD OF GOD /THE LORD JESUS CHRIST .

[rosered]

If UR is true, believing it is hitting the mark. If eternal torment is false, believing it is missing the mark. Our purpose on this site is to promote the truth of the salvation of all through Jesus Christ- which we believe is true and scriptural and for which we make no apology. That was the purpose of the opening post of this thread- to demonstrate that by reason, as well as by the scriptures, God is not well served by a gospel that teaches that His divine nature is fulfilled by the endless and hopeless torment of the majority of His creation. :o)

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:4

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1:19,20

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will... Ephesians 1:9-11

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11

When the last knee bows and the last tongue confesses, His desire will have been accomplished according to His kind intention which He purposed in Christ, the gathering together of all things in heaven and in earth into one in Christ

28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15:28

This was God's purpose from the beginning

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

We are just one stage(the first fruits) in the completion of His purpose in the administration of the fulness of times

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. Romans 8:19-21

Amen !!!    :HeartThrob:   every tongue  shall confess The LORD JESUS  Christ !! 
...10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

John 13:13
"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am.

John 13:14
Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

HE will finish    and make  a short work  in righteousness      Romans 9 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

[CST]

Oh, yeah. But there's some dispute about that with linguists. What there doesn't seem to be a dispute about is that the Bible teaches that sin is serious and its end is death and it doesn't make particular distinction on the grounds of, OK you can do that and the end isn't ever going to be death so knock yourself out. Your point on mercy may actually more more relevant than you think. You wanted to kill your living dog for killing your other dog, now you love both dogs and I'm not sure if you were actually in the right had you chosen to kill the dog but I know you'd have ended up with neither of the dogs you love. Even if not in the same ways. What if the dog had been bitter by a venomous spider and died that way? Would you show mercy to the spider?

As you say don't assume you have the right to kill things willy nilly anger, pity or no. God is merciful to us and that is why He often does give us the punishment, death, that our sins deserve. That doesn't mean that sin has magnitude it just means how God balances His mercy against His justice does.

Sin is serious and Leviticus only gives three ways of deal with it, death, expulsion (pretty much as bad) or a sacrificial offering. But an offering had to be faultless and made at the central shine at Shiloh or later Jerusalem, some people were a lot nearer than others, getting there for some was quite a trek with there often quite valuable, because a sacrifice isn't a sacrifice unless it's worth something, offering. It's easy to overlook this fact, I did for a long time, but none of these options are simple they all include loss and effort of the part of all parties.

  That was beautiful Chris !! 

  Thank you for   making me see other points besides my own !

I  agree with you death is death in the sense we  cannot bring back      little    baby  Kezzy  in the flesh  , but thankful   to God for the time to love him   those 8 years  :HeartThrob:

I can go to him in the Spirit of Life and still find joy in these  thoughts of him ..  treasures  we keep in our hearts .


sin is a serious   thing , I do    consider  Cain when God told him sin was crouching at the door and his desire   was to rule over   Cain , but    that Cain should master  over it

I have placed    boble hubs many different    bible translations    saying some what the same   in meanings

http://biblehub.com/genesis/4-7.htm


  My   own understanding of it now is   , Cains offering could have been accepted  with the right    heart  , but  it seems  feeling rejected of the Lord caused him to "fail the test " and become a murderer of the brethren , or even  condemn his brother   to death  by his own hand /power   , but we know by the  scriptures even  Abel being dead  , his blood still cries out   from the earth [ground]   
and   Cain was no longer in Gods favor  and seeing this also as Gods protection and care  , as His    "punishment "  a curse came  upon him

  he said he was Not able to bear ,all this by  letting sin rule his  heart and  being banished from Gods sight   

when  making his place in the land of Nod   The name Nod comes from the verb נוד (nud) denoting a going back and forth:    maybe meaning  more clearly" the land of confusion " ,

  just as Adam was   banished out of the garden of Life   


   east of Eden  "   Gods pleasure" and   , for me ,  Gods protection ,  this to me it the main   reason   

  many wander  in sin sickness and  death    in this world and life  ,  feeling  empty and hollow and incomplete   and are in danger of being murdered themselves without Gods hand upon them ,    this is the reason for the mark on Cain  , God in His mercy responded by placing a mark on Cain "lest anyone finding him should kill him" (Genesis 4:15 Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said to him, Therefore whoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold    I have considered it being the   seven more spirits more wicked than  himself when   they go out to wander in the dry places seeking "rest"  and   finding none  in the new testament   witness .

  I believe  , and this is just my own thoughts  , that Cain is the carnal man   and killed his    brother    as  also neighbour    the spirit man inside and  close  as a brother   in adversity  and friend     , his own soul /life in the spirit  , being the  Christ or ANOINTING   of  belonging to  GOD   
Our main conflicts comes   from the struggle of  being    both spiritual  in  nature  and flesh and blood  as carnal  in nature  , pleasing the  flesh and not the Spirit   being enemies of one another .

Proverbs 17 ...16Why is there a price in the hand of a fool to buy wisdom, When he has no sense? 17A friend loves at all times, And a brother is born for adversity. 18A man lacking in sense pledges And becomes guarantor in the presence of his neighbor....

  This is getting to long again   and am sorry for such lengthy  posts  :sigh:
I just believe we cannot serve two masters without  confusion   and conflict within  our own selves and    judge what is right , we have "rest"   and peace or   we go off into   battles  over powers and principalities in high places   , the very seat of  emotions of the heart   , where every thing is    placed   Ecc 3  Only to be separated by   the LORD JESUS CHRIST    Our advocate    and also  our judge   and High priest 
  He says, I judge no man   / carnal man ,  whom is condemned/judged  already , but if I do judge my judgment is just .

Many  miracles and signs were done by the Lord  and he said  , tell no man   ,  the carnal man can never understand the things of the Spirit of Life
  they know earthly things   and even those are   limited  in understanding    ,  His  speech to Nicodemus ,   you are a   a ruler of the Jews
  and do not  understand   these  earthly things , under the  law of Moses     ,

I do believe he was referring to   having the torah  as   the Word of God ,  how can you understand   heavenly things , the book of the new  testament    was  to be written in their hearts  as  true  treasures .  about being  born again   by Jesus Christ whom is the   Son of God   and  great High priest and King of" all things "    pertaining    to the heavens and earth and even below    .  the Kingdom of God was with  him   teaching Him  in  THE  HOLY SPIRIT   =the Light/ knowledge of God   in his  darkness  , night /ignorance   by the WORD OF GOD /THE LORD JESUS CHRIST .

Thanks, I was a little worried it was a bit critical of you. Me suddenly introducing a spider may have been taking the analogy unnecessarily far, I could maybe have used someone else's dog that wasn't yours of various descriptions. But to be honest that fact is that if you actually don't have it is you to kill the dog, which I suspect you don't, then claiming your motive for not killing it was pity might not be entirely correct even if that's how you understand it.

Though I thank you to be this line of reasoning which you have introduced may have helped me better understand a part of the Bible I had formally struggled with where it reads:

'You shall not pity him, but you shall purge the blood of the innocent from Israel, that it may go well with you.'

There's lots of items in the Deuteronomy like here where God commands Israel to execute some pretty vicious punishments and then says, 'Show no pity' to qualify them. This used to seem a bit off for God to be commanding His people to withhold mercy.

I the context of what we're discussing now I suspect mercy isn't what is a issue here but rather making arbitrary decision about who you might or might not let off (i.e. pity) which would just invite partiality.

It didn't not Bible hub before, although one comment that shouldn't need mentioning but should be in case is that most Bible are ET translations that have ET cross-references.

I would also agree that if Cain had had a right heart his offering would have been accepted. But if he'd had a right heart he'd probably have given a better offering.

Understanding that 'death' feeling you describe though and as far as I know I've never murdered anyone. Though I must have several other sins which seem to be weighing the same, though I can't really know because I don't know Cain's mind.

I suspect that seven-fold vengeance may have come back around later in the form of the great flood.

Just for clarification how are you understanding the term 'torah' here. Torah = Pentateuch or Torah = Tanak? Don't think it matters to what you're saying but I'm curious to what your thinking here.

[rosered]

Thanks, I was a little worried it was a bit critical of you. Me suddenly introducing a spider may have been taking the analogy unnecessarily far, I could maybe have used someone else's dog that wasn't yours of various descriptions. But to be honest that fact is that if you actually don't have it is you to kill the dog, which I suspect you don't, then claiming your motive for not killing it was pity might not be entirely correct even if that's how you understand it.

Though I thank you to be this line of reasoning which you have introduced may have helped me better understand a part of the Bible I had formally struggled with where it reads:

'You shall not pity him, but you shall purge the blood of the innocent from Israel, that it may go well with you.'

There's lots of items in the Deuteronomy like here where God commands Israel to execute some pretty vicious punishments and then says, 'Show no pity' to qualify them. This used to seem a bit off for God to be commanding His people to withhold mercy.

I the context of what we're discussing now I suspect mercy isn't what is a issue here but rather making arbitrary decision about who you might or might not let off (i.e. pity) which would just invite partiality.

It didn't not Bible hub before, although one comment that shouldn't need mentioning but should be in case is that most Bible are ET translations that have ET cross-references.

I would also agree that if Cain had had a right heart his offering would have been accepted. But if he'd had a right heart he'd probably have given a better offering.

Understanding that 'death' feeling you describe though and as far as I know I've never murdered anyone. Though I must have several other sins which seem to be weighing the same, though I can't really know because I don't know Cain's mind.

I suspect that seven-fold vengeance may have come back around later in the form of the great flood.

Just for clarification how are you understanding the term 'torah' here. Torah = Pentateuch or Torah = Tanak? Don't think it matters to what you're saying but I'm curious to what your thinking here.

Thanks Chris   ! :dsunny:

I appreciate you trying to understand my speech and   I you as well   .

   I do believe we agree on many things   , but the crude   ways of    writing limit our  abilities

I was never a writer   and grammar errors and such things  can be annoying  .

and those LOOOONG  drawn out posts  lol .. :laughing7:


No   Not at all  , a spider might have been easier to kill    :laughing7:
  and a different lesson in that    for sure .

Just as these people  , may be symbolic of  evil breeding more evil and  cut them off   , and have no pity  on evil doing .

   My own  thinking is we are more than just one little tiny human being    trying to figure out God .

  I know the   Bible when  eating it and consuming it   as we do ,  consumes us   also ,  may be God telling us     deal with them  same  evil breeding ''people'' within you !

This sounds like a real   nut   case way of seeing the   WORD OF GOD    within you , but  for me it  so personal and  specific  that way 

   How can the Christ be within you   and not all them other things as well ?
  I had to analyze it for what it meant to me  ,
  just as the Torah    , being the    two tables of stone  and writing them  laws down with His own finger   ,   that God chose to   send a man   up to a high mountain and deal with many peoples ?

  What if , and this is just a    ''what if ''    we are walking the Word of God out in our own  lives in a personal level     and not so much a  broad and gathered   lot of everyone else ?

For me it has made my heart open    to receive and relate and care and love all those whom  we can see  how much God has  proved Himself and lastly in His  SON  the true Light of the word  and its full effect to still experience  completely  .

Which is within us all      , I can kind of see the Bible as more of a mirror now   and the light that is shining on the mirror is much brighter than when I  first looked into the deep and dark mystery of knowing God .

  that reflection was   my own face  seeing God   , in total darkness and ignorance    of Who or what is God? and what is Love ? and What is Spirit ? 

  and where is all this  power  of God at ?     the ten thousand questions and no  real answers     and  truthfully a scared and   timid child in many many ways

and it all boils down to how we  think ,  when you  fear  ET and not God    than you know your in trouble    ,   Fearing God is the  beginning of Wisdom ,  we all should know   all to well by the scriptures     what happens when disobedient children     go off to play   together     , they are usually up to  trouble  lol

  I have finally found some rest  in hope and peace that was  never  ever  able to have before God started  dealing   with  me on a personal  level    .

  My biggest mistake was trying to find God outside   my own heart  ,  He was there all the time   just waiting for me to wear myself out trying to  find Him

  Acts 17    comforted me after knowing  what  I had been doing  WRONG ... 


JESUS CHRIST   to me rises up in our own hearts  and does draw all men unto HIMSELF  when we  lift Him up in thanksgiving and praise and  love .  what is within us and what can be   from others also     Lifting up the  Holy heavens and all that is found in them  from the earth /our mortal bodies .


So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.[ BAD IDEA ]  :dontknow:


For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship,

I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.


The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth

, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
   We are to call no man uncommon or unclean    , now that Christ has done His   work and we  are his children  , some   have not risen yet  , but are being formed  within   each and every   vessel of honor and dishonor   , believe it or not all things do glorify God   , what could we compare  it to   without the dishonor which we have also carried within our own   vessels  also ?     GOD  will do all the separating  of what was  held within us    and we will even be surprised    at the glory of God in the end      I long for that DAY!!!     :HeartThrob: 




.

[Dandelion]

I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock. 

Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".

All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.

When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.

"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."

"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.

In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.

I think what is meant by all sin being equal, is that, in God's justice, which is perfect, any turning away from Him, even biting an apple, is cause for 'death', because we have gone against our creator, and not done His will, and did our own, instead. We have rebelled and basically told God, that His rules are not going to be our rules. We denied Him as being our source of Good and Evil.

In terms of reflection on society, and what is more detrimental, that seems to have a different perspective.

Just my  :2c:

D.

[rosered]

I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock. 

Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".

All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.

When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.

"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."

"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.

In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.

I think what is meant by all sin being equal, is that, in God's justice, which is perfect, any turning away from Him, even biting an apple, is cause for 'death', because we have gone against our creator, and not done His will, and did our own, instead. We have rebelled and basically told God, that His rules are not going to be our rules. We denied Him as being our source of Good and Evil.

In terms of reflection on society, and what is more detrimental, that seems to have a different perspective.

Just my  :2c:

D.

  I so oooooooooooo    :iagree:

  Both of you

  we are all trying to understand    some key     words  ,   what is sin ?      what is the deeds we do to deny Him   exactly ?
Why does our hearts    betray us ? 

  and Him knowing fully all our hearts and thoughts     divide us within ourselves  so    many times we are put to the test ?

You  both gave some great answers .     and can only  say  also ,
      to me it is simple as GOD WILL DIVIDE  with His Own Sword of Truth  , just what remains and what must be done away with in Christ .

GOD definitely has it all figured out  already  , we just wait   on Him ,till He lets us know  personally   what   offends  .

Matt 15 What Defiles a Man
...11"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."


12 Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"

But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted....

[jugghead]

I don't know about others, but for me ..... "sin" is the action taken by a persons spirit, whose heart has been corrupted by being filled with lies by the carnal mind ...... manifested through our physical body, through action or word

In short ..... sin is the action taken because of unbelief

In the garden, they did not believe what the Father said would happen, their unbelief of "The Word" of God .... as the Truth .... "that they would die"

The seed of unbelief conceives the serpent

They cannot enter his rest because of unbelief

Does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of the Father? may it never be

and that is why our Lord, our Savior is awesome

my  :2c:

[CST]

Thanks, I was a little worried it was a bit critical of you. Me suddenly introducing a spider may have been taking the analogy unnecessarily far, I could maybe have used someone else's dog that wasn't yours of various descriptions. But to be honest that fact is that if you actually don't have it is you to kill the dog, which I suspect you don't, then claiming your motive for not killing it was pity might not be entirely correct even if that's how you understand it.

Though I thank you to be this line of reasoning which you have introduced may have helped me better understand a part of the Bible I had formally struggled with where it reads:

'You shall not pity him, but you shall purge the blood of the innocent from Israel, that it may go well with you.'

There's lots of items in the Deuteronomy like here where God commands Israel to execute some pretty vicious punishments and then says, 'Show no pity' to qualify them. This used to seem a bit off for God to be commanding His people to withhold mercy.

I the context of what we're discussing now I suspect mercy isn't what is a issue here but rather making arbitrary decision about who you might or might not let off (i.e. pity) which would just invite partiality.

It didn't not Bible hub before, although one comment that shouldn't need mentioning but should be in case is that most Bible are ET translations that have ET cross-references.

I would also agree that if Cain had had a right heart his offering would have been accepted. But if he'd had a right heart he'd probably have given a better offering.

Understanding that 'death' feeling you describe though and as far as I know I've never murdered anyone. Though I must have several other sins which seem to be weighing the same, though I can't really know because I don't know Cain's mind.

I suspect that seven-fold vengeance may have come back around later in the form of the great flood.

Just for clarification how are you understanding the term 'torah' here. Torah = Pentateuch or Torah = Tanak? Don't think it matters to what you're saying but I'm curious to what your thinking here.

Thanks Chris   ! :dsunny:

I appreciate you trying to understand my speech and   I you as well   .

   I do believe we agree on many things   , but the crude   ways of    writing limit our  abilities

I was never a writer   and grammar errors and such things  can be annoying  .

and those LOOOONG  drawn out posts  lol .. :laughing7:


No   Not at all  , a spider might have been easier to kill    :laughing7:
  and a different lesson in that    for sure .

Just as these people  , may be symbolic of  evil breeding more evil and  cut them off   , and have no pity  on evil doing .

   My own  thinking is we are more than just one little tiny human being    trying to figure out God .

  I know the   Bible when  eating it and consuming it   as we do ,  consumes us   also ,  may be God telling us     deal with them  same  evil breeding "people" within you !

This sounds like a real   nut   case way of seeing the   WORD OF GOD    within you , but  for me it  so personal and  specific  that way 

   How can the Christ be within you   and not all them other things as well ?
  I had to analyze it for what it meant to me  ,
  just as the Torah    , being the    two tables of stone  and writing them  laws down with His own finger   ,   that God chose to   send a man   up to a high mountain and deal with many peoples ?

  What if , and this is just a    "what if "    we are walking the Word of God out in our own  lives in a personal level     and not so much a  broad and gathered   lot of everyone else ?

For me it has made my heart open    to receive and relate and care and love all those whom  we can see  how much God has  proved Himself and lastly in His  SON  the true Light of the word  and its full effect to still experience  completely  .

Which is within us all      , I can kind of see the Bible as more of a mirror now   and the light that is shining on the mirror is much brighter than when I  first looked into the deep and dark mystery of knowing God .

  that reflection was   my own face  seeing God   , in total darkness and ignorance    of Who or what is God? and what is Love ? and What is Spirit ? 

  and where is all this  power  of God at ?     the ten thousand questions and no  real answers     and  truthfully a scared and   timid child in many many ways

and it all boils down to how we  think ,  when you  fear  ET and not God    than you know your in trouble    ,   Fearing God is the  beginning of Wisdom ,  we all should know   all to well by the scriptures     what happens when disobedient children     go off to play   together     , they are usually up to  trouble  lol

  I have finally found some rest  in hope and peace that was  never  ever  able to have before God started  dealing   with  me on a personal  level    .

  My biggest mistake was trying to find God outside   my own heart  ,  He was there all the time   just waiting for me to wear myself out trying to  find Him

  Acts 17    comforted me after knowing  what  I had been doing  WRONG ... 


JESUS CHRIST   to me rises up in our own hearts  and does draw all men unto HIMSELF  when we  lift Him up in thanksgiving and praise and  love .  what is within us and what can be   from others also     Lifting up the  Holy heavens and all that is found in them  from the earth /our mortal bodies .


So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.[ BAD IDEA ]  :dontknow:


For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship,

I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.


The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth

, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
   We are to call no man uncommon or unclean    , now that Christ has done His   work and we  are his children  , some   have not risen yet  , but are being formed  within   each and every   vessel of honor and dishonor   , believe it or not all things do glorify God   , what could we compare  it to   without the dishonor which we have also carried within our own   vessels  also ?     GOD  will do all the separating  of what was  held within us    and we will even be surprised    at the glory of God in the end      I long for that DAY!!!     :HeartThrob: 




.

Thanks, I think I may have to give this post much thought. I think you may have misunderstood how I was understanding the use of the term translated 'pity' in Deuteronomy, not that that's that's difficult have you seen how many words for 'mercy' and 'pity' are in the Hebrew? I suspect you may have.

I don't think the Torah is the two tablets of stone, when last I checked it was the Pentateuch or have I got you wrong?

But yes we must keep God in our  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: first. Otherwise He is not alive to us anywhere.

I disagree, It is not diluting sin. It is the testimony of the scriptures. I hear people say "all sin is the same". This is against the testimony of the scriptures and against the mirror image of the law. As if murder and lying are the same, or a pedophile abusing a child is the same as a young man and woman having sex out of wedlock. 

Pedophiles were executed under the law(sin unto death), fornicators were not. Theives were forced to make restitution, Murderers with pre-meditation were executed.

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

As the apostle James says, "We all stumble in many ways".

All these things require wisdom and an appropriation of the mind of God as it is revealed in the scriptures, or else we wind up just thrashing around in the maze of our own ideas.

When praying for someone who is struggling with sin becomes "diluting sin", there is misunderstanding.

"Confess your faults one to another and praay for one another that you may be healed."

"If we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

It is the mercy of God that conquers sin. His judgment only brings it to the light, and forces man to uncover it, and deal(confess) with it.

In order to deal with the many bondages of sin that both believers and unbelievers get trapped in, we, as deliverers and healers, must have both an accurate view of it and a disposition towards wisdom and mercy or we cannot hold open the door for those seeking relief.

I think what is meant by all sin being equal, is that, in God's justice, which is perfect, any turning away from Him, even biting an apple, is cause for 'death', because we have gone against our creator, and not done His will, and did our own, instead. We have rebelled and basically told God, that His rules are not going to be our rules. We denied Him as being our source of Good and Evil.

In terms of reflection on society, and what is more detrimental, that seems to have a different perspective.

Just my  :2c:

D.

Pretty much, though I'm not sure I'd call all those things sin. We are meant to eat apples but it is a good point. But that said 1 John does suggest some sort of distinction in something it's just not necessarily clear what it is.

Very true. Although I'm also trying to understand how God who made everything could end up with plants He didn't plant.

I don't know about others, but for me ..... "sin" is the action taken by a persons spirit, whose heart has been corrupted by being filled with lies by the carnal mind ...... manifested through our physical body, through action or word

In short ..... sin is the action taken because of unbelief

In the garden, they did not believe what the Father said would happen, their unbelief of "The Word" of God .... as the Truth .... "that they would die"

The seed of unbelief conceives the serpent

They cannot enter his rest because of unbelief

Does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of the Father? may it never be

and that is why our Lord, our Savior is awesome

my  :2c:

To me ultimately, sin is just stuff that's liable to trip you up. If it's missing the mark it presupposes you are aiming for the mark. Presumably then it's like going after good thing by very bad methods, or some such.

[jugghead]

I don't know about others, but for me ..... "sin" is the action taken by a persons spirit, whose heart has been corrupted by being filled with lies by the carnal mind ...... manifested through our physical body, through action or word

In short ..... sin is the action taken because of unbelief

In the garden, they did not believe what the Father said would happen, their unbelief of "The Word" of God .... as the Truth .... "that they would die"

The seed of unbelief conceives the serpent

They cannot enter his rest because of unbelief

Does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of the Father? may it never be

and that is why our Lord, our Savior is awesome

my  :2c:

To me ultimately, sin is just stuff that's liable to trip you up. If it's missing the mark it presupposes you are aiming for the mark. Presumably then it's like going after good thing by very bad methods, or some such.

We said the same thing, just in different words .....

It is peoples unbelief that all things already belong to them and they have the mindset of trying to obtain what is already theirs,

which in your words "going after good things by very bad methods"

Which is just another way to say "trying to obtain things of the Spirit (good things) by the works of the flesh (very bad methods)."

We are of the same mind, the mind of Christ, just different words because we are all also individuals (individual bodies of Christ as well as the corporate body of Christ).

[CST]

No, my presumption doesn't hold that people already own want they want or even believe that they do, it holds they they want it so much they go to nutty, dangerous, harmful lengths to get those things. I can't even believe myself I own all things, if I do why can't I find what I'm after. I can't remember, at this time, anywhere in the Bible where it says I own all things. I don't feel like I do.

[jugghead]

No, my presumption doesn't hold that people already own want they want or even believe that they do, it holds they they want it so much they go to nutty, dangerous, harmful lengths to get those things. I can't even believe myself I own all things, if I do why can't I find what I'm after. I can't remember, at this time, anywhere in the Bible where it says I own all things. I don't feel like I do.

Are you referring to owning physical things or spiritual things?

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours; (1 Corinthians 3:21)

As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. (2 Corinthians 6:10)

[CST]

'For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?' (Matthew 16:26)

I have thought unless a man hasn't got the world he wouldn't need to try to gain the world.

I take it that would be physical things. The 'all things' in the scriptures you've provided don't seem to make any sort of distinction. The minute you make one I fear ET and ED proponents could use it against us.

[jugghead]

'For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?' (Matthew 16:26)

I have thought unless a man hasn't got the world he wouldn't need to try to gain the world.

I take it that would be physical things. The 'all things' in the scriptures you've provided don't seem to make any sort of distinction. The minute you make one I fear ET and ED proponents could use it against us.

Yes, I agree, which is why we rely on His Spirit to reveal the truth in us. "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word the proceeds from the mouth of God"

For me, to possess all physical things is not a matter of owning them for the pleasure of the flesh but for the purpose of Him revealing the Spiritual implications of what they represent in us.

I believe that since God is infinite, to rely on only the written word (bread) we are not hearing the words proceeding from the mouth of the Father (the Spirit of the Word), which is HIS understanding of His Word, not the understanding of men.

Blessings

[CST]

Very true, though I'm pretty sure we live - or at least subsist if that's better (it might be worse) - on actually food too; we were made to do so and gave us all the plants for food (well that can't be literal more than one species is genuinely poisonous).

But I agree on what you say in the main phrase, though I suspect we're not likely to avoid pleasure of the flesh entirely. Eating foods we enjoy is pleasurable, feeding our actual hunger is legitimate and I don't think God opposes or is offended by this in any way of its self. I do expect He is offended when He looks and sees us eating to ridiculous extremes and then looks elsewhere and sees other people who can't find to basic food they need. Would that be part of revealing those spiritual implications you're driving at?

Deciding that 'bread' means the written word is a very specific interpretation. I took the written word simply to be the record of the spoken word. After all the term 'bread' in the original context refers to manna and learning to be obedient to the delivery of manna which was real food so far as can be understood. But spiritual meaning are always better than the 'on the page' readings. Well, maybe better is too singular, I think I'm developing my understanding of what you say as I type. :smile: I hope I am.

[jugghead]

CST Quote:
Very true, though I'm pretty sure we live - or at least subsist if that's better (it might be worse) - on actually food too; we were made to do so and gave us all the plants for food (well that can't be literal more than one species is genuinely poisonous).

But I agree on what you say in the main phrase, though I suspect we're not likely to avoid pleasure of the flesh entirely (Yes because we die daily). Eating foods we enjoy is pleasurable, feeding our actual hunger is legitimate and I don't think God opposes or is offended by this in any way of its self (agreed). I do expect He is offended when He looks and sees us eating to ridiculous extremes and then looks elsewhere and sees other people who can't find to basic food they need. Would that be part of revealing those spiritual implications you're driving at? (Yes)

Deciding that 'bread' means the written word is a very specific interpretation. I took the written word simply to be the record of the spoken word. After all the term 'bread' in the original context refers to manna and learning to be obedient to the delivery of manna which was real food so far as can be understood. But spiritual meaning are always better than the 'on the page' readings (Yes, this is the context in which I understand bread, when the bread comes alive it becomes a living fountain). Well, maybe better is too singular, I think I'm developing my understanding of what you say as I type (He constantly does that with me, it is what keeps me writing). :smile: I hope I am.
End CST quote

Blessings brother

[marie glen]

hi! I think of "missing the mark" the greek translated "sin" - and why in a sense all sin is 'equal' (but not equal in badness - logic is related to the word / logos).. missing the mark in that God (surely?) is life itslef and is also perfection.. so imperfection is the opposite of life.. and any turning from Him.. or disagreeeing with what He chooses in any teeny, tiny way, still results in imperfection (missing the mark of perfection) which is the opposite of God/life. So large or small sin (flaw) has the same result. "The result of sin (missing the mark of perfection) is death" also opposite of life. (Logic)

'Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect".. though we will not be, until Jesus' return and we put on incorruption and immortality-(negative particle "freedom from death- G110")

...before the curse (results, consequences) of the disobedience in Eden, there were, I would think, no poisonous plants.. so perhaps "all" were for food... What a joy it would be to garden w/o weeds and thorns!! :gsmile: