24 Reasons Hell Is Real

[marie glen]

...fear as a constant in the background

Amen!! one can sense the spirit of a teaching and idea.. if it's oppresive.. brings fear.. or anger or any other negative (fruit) we should question the teaching and idea.
   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Lorenzo]

It seems to me that this fellow is confusing "Universalism" ("all paths lead to God") with "Universal Reconciliation" ("There is one Path, Jesus, through which everybody will at last pass"). Anyway, 99% of these arguments are more about the pain of Hell rather than about its duration. I believe many forget that UR doesn't "cancel" Hell, but it only questions its duration. To me, the only "heretical" question UR asks is: "Can we repent also after death?". I believe it is the core of UR, at least from my viewpoint...

[eaglesway]

To me the challenges to biblical universalism are(roughly) to re explain "hell" as Sheol, Gehenna and the lake of fire.

To re-explain the fire of God as corrective, purging and not literally fire and the "many stripes few stripes of corrective discipline.

To clearly show the integration of the primary scriptures that plainly declare all will be saved

To re-explain the ultimate purpose of God, the aionian calling of the saints and the aions

I really dont think believers in UR ought to give much credit to modern western Christianity or make deals to let them have their "hell" but on a limited basis. But then, I personally think "Hell" and ET is much of the reason why Christianity is failing "as a religion".

IMO There is no hell of fiery eternal torment or annihilation such as what is described by western protestantism and roman theology , and it is unscriptural and counterproductive- "You make the word of God of none effect with your traditions".

To me there is just the fire of God's love, that consumes all the darkness and every lie, by searching out the imward parts of every man, until every secret is revealed and every knee bowed and every adversary subjected.

A fire that burns until God is all in all and death is no more :o)

[Lazarus Short]

Someone rang the doorbell this morning, and left a flyer.  This gift came from some local Baptist church, and mentioned "hell."  I think I may send it back with a printed copy of "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No."  Got a laser printer now - so cheap to print.  Benjamin Franklin would have been astounded, and for that matter, Gutenberg.

[Rhodes]

Great word brother!  :dsunny:

[CST]

I mentioned that I didn't want to wake up too many old threads but at the same time I think the ones here are useful and I can use my responses to this request to explain a bit about what I'm unsure of, what I wonder about and what I strongly believe so here goes, hope I can do a good job of this:

"Some false teachers today would like us to think that everybody will eventually get to heaven. Don't believe them. 
William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army and a man who dedicated his life to lifting the poor out of sin and poverty, reportedly made this statement: "Most Christian organizations would like to send their workers to Bible college for five years. I would like to send our workers to hell for five minutes. That would prepare them for a lifetime of compassionate ministry."

Booth never suggested that the desperate people he served were "already in hell." He believed in a real, eternal hell, and it drove him to rescue people from both their current plight and future perdition.

Shortly before his death in 1912, Booth warned prophetically that he saw coming to the church "forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration ... a heaven without a hell."

In today's theological fog, his ominous caveat is unfolding. Even some who claim to believe the Bible are having second thoughts about eternal judgment, and others have rejected the notion of judgment altogether. The name usually given this teaching is Universalism.

Universalism basically is the belief that all people will be saved. Jesus' death and resurrection will automatically, or at least eventually, save the whole human race. Personal repentance and faith in Christ are not necessary for going to heaven. The Christian mission is reduced to announcing to people the "good news" that they are already saved.

But does Scripture teach that everyone will be saved? There is overwhelming biblical evidence to the contrary.

I'd like to offer 24 reasons to reject Universalism. You may be able to add a few of your own.

Was Booth being ironic with that quote, clearly he was contradicting himself because he supposedly didn't believe anyone went to Hell for five minutes, it contradicts the concept for him.

Salvationism is a word that might make a nice description for our beliefs unfortunately the SA seem to have poached it.

1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).

Actually, I'm not as sure as this as other people on this. Certainly absolution seems to depend on repentance and I do believe it's necessary for final salvation. But there seem to be several occasions in The Bible where God appears to give forgiveness when no repentance is in evidence. We just have to infer it which doesn't always seem plausible. I wonder that we may have misunderstood this relationship slightly.

2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).

Why can't they just except what this actually seems to say? Yes, there's seems to be caveats in the Revelation that suggest some people might struggle to access the water, but that reading is so far removed from what it says.

3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).

Yeah, the operative expression being 'for men', ie all men. This speaks nothing as to who will or won't be saved.

4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).

Come on! I some translations I've seen it says 'all kinds of liars' just in case the reader might think there are people this list doesn't cover. There's nothing surprising about statements that such people won't get into the City. It doesn't prove that anyone will remain as such.

5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).

This looks very like Luke has has merged two saying of Jesus for theological purposes. Not sure it means entirely what the writer of the article thinks it means.

6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).

Ooh, so in this picture the wicked get into the Kingdom and have to be thrown out again? Not sure this really serves ETers purposes. I imagine it means that that the Kingdom is being built around us metaphorically speaking although it does seem to be an incredibly rare way of presenting it.

7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).

Your point being? So many of this quotes seem to be written imagining the reader will infer something not found in the text. And the obvious reasding of this one eems to be exactly the opposite of what the writer wants us to understand.

8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).

He called it one of the most loving verses in the Bible but apparently there are people that love doesn't extend to. How can he say that and then think that 'the world' means less than THE WORLD.

9. Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

I concede that this is one of the hardest verses in the Bible for the likes of us an I think discussing it will take us beyond the scope of this thread but I do observe that that key phrase 'everlasting destruction' appears nowhere else in the Bible.

10. Jesus emphatically taught that a spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).

Again just stating that fact conveys no information about why certain parties should be excluded from said rebirth.

11. In answer to a very clear question about what is necessary for salvation, Paul gave a very clear answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts. 16:31).

I'll be honest I'm not much of a Christian. I've never been entirely sure what that belief was meant entail. It's often stated very simply but somehow I think it speaks
to more than some intellectual belief in a man who was God and some miracles He performed. I think it has to be deeper than that, quite possibly beyond complete expression. Paul
certainly puts no deadline of receiving this belief. 

12. Jesus gave no indication that many roads lead to God. He forcefully stated that He was the only way. "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14:6).

Yes, and... I often think this statement must be much more profound than it appears to many modern readers. It's hard not to suspect many of us have managed to dilute it's meaning through overuse and quite possibly misuse in the centuries since Jesus said it.

[CST]

[cont.]
13. The early preachers of the church clearly preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12; see also 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).

This was a 'pun' not like a modern ha, ha, pun but a statement about the belief that there was a real spiritual significance to what Jesus' name means and is certainly related to the above statements. It certain doesn't explain why we have to resign ourselves to the everlasting torment of countless people.

14. According to Scripture, only those who receive Jesus Christ and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).

Aren't they just repeating themselves here. They want to imply that some did receive Him and being Children of God is equal to being saved and going to Heaven although as they've stated it the quote doesn't say that.

15. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; see also 10:9).

I have to imagine here that the reader is supposed to draw the conclusion the writer wants them to by conflating these quotes but that still doesn't work because they still don't say what he'd like them to say.

16. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgment. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3:18).

This is a confusing quote, there's some dispute over whether it's a quote of Jesus or a commentary of John on a quote of Jesus as I recall. I lean towards the second at the moment but it sill doesn't say what the writer of the article wants it to.

17. Only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are granted access into the eternal city of God. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15; see also 21:27).

I don't pretend I don't think this is a bit of a problem, hopefully i'll discuss these concerns later.

18. People are not automatically righteous. Only when we declare faith in Jesus Christ does God declare us righteous in His sight. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

Does the Greek actually say 'justifies the ungodly'? No-one in faith of Jesus can still be called 'ungodly' surely? If it does it must mean it in the looser sense. Or else it's a shorthand for saying 'justifies those who were ungodly' Otherwise it sound to me a bit contrary as written.

19. Eternal life comes only through a relationship with God. We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son. "'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'" (John 17:3).

Which we can look forward to, as can everyone else and why not? It doesn't give a reason here.
20. The cross of Christ is where payment for our sins was made. Only when we believe this are we saved. "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [on a cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life'" (John 3:14-15).

This is really the same argument over and over. Basically salvation must be preceded by belief which is fine but doesn't demonstrate any sort of obstacle but simply makes assumptions about what belief or lack of will look like. And that the time to find it is finite which I'm not sure it says anywhere.

21. Only those who have the Son of God have eternal life. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).

Perfectly true, but they obviously don't have the Son against His choice do they? So that again shows they aren't likely to have Him by their original choice.

In addition to these verses, the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 provides hard evidence against Universalism. Cornelius was devout, prayed often, gave generously to the poor and even received an angelic visitation. Yet God went to great lengths to get the gospel to him so he could come to know Jesus and be saved.

This just looks like a preview for argument 23 below, I'll attempt to address it there.

22. Added to the avalanche of scriptural evidence, there are also practical reasons for rejecting Universalism. History teaches that acceding to Universalism sets the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. Soon all confidence in Scripture is lost and the uniqueness of the Christian gospel evaporates.
So what? This has no obvious support and presupposes a bias against liberalism which actually takes many forms. I actually think that the faith is properly highly liberal. The problem is that 'liberalism' these days is associated with the idea of being at liberty to commit any sin you wish forgetting that the Bible teachs that people who sin and are in sin do not have freedom. Therefore it is not correct to promote liberalism as freedom to sin as much as you please.

23. If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent.

I'm a bit surprised at how little this spurious statement seems to be opposed on this thread. This Gospel its self demands that it is preached. It is worth spread and worth hearing and that is enough. As I mention in my introduction one of the main motivations for my coming here was that I know this of evangelism and yet am so poor at it.

24. If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ.

I am trying to write these post in the patient and generous spirit that I have identified all over these boards, and I'm aware people don't like people writing long sentences as it tends to be taken as shouting. But while so far I have been discussing my doubts and questions about UR this statement speaks to what I actually believe about it and I feel is should speak with conviction:

THIS IS A MONSTROUS LIE!

Years ago, when I used to believe in Eternal Damnation, not with any conviction I just did know there was an acceptable alternative, I read the parable of the sheep and the goats and, for reason beyond the scope of this thread it became my least favourite parable in the Bible.

Since then I have changed and reconsidered how I understand this parable many times but despite that I continue to believe that there is one truth that the parable speaks that remains true whatever belief you hold about Eschatology.

At the judgement God will divide everyone into two groups you can call them the saved and the damned or the saved and the destroyed or the saved now and the saved later but one thing remains the same. On Judgement Day God will make a decision and that decision will irreversibly effect everyone. It doesn't matter for the moment what the duration or intensity of torment for each of the different people in Hell is they will be in the second group when it would be better they had been in the first. Whatever happens they can never be in the first group that's just true.

When the promotors of Everlasting Torment are in Heaven do you think they'll want to spend their time talking about how the spent there lives telling people how they were going to Hell? Or How their loved ones were? I don't. The truth as I see it is this: Salvation in your future cannot change your past. So it's better to have the past, present and future you would want to have if you can achieve it.

The parable, as I understand it, speaks on what I'm about to say next too but I this it'll be simpler is I just quote the article writer from item for who is in turn quoting Revelation: "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).

If, nay when, Universalism is proved true then at the judgement they will be accountable for every lie they have told and falsehood they have preached forwarding the message of Everlasting Damnation.

Now if Universalism is wrong that will be true of US too but how can he doubt that he will be judged for his lies if UR be true?

I said earlier that I was a sort of liberalist. Now liberalism gets a bad because it has a bad rep rep because it makes light of sin and indeed presents God as making light of sin. No I do not believe so. It is also held that pride is a sin but again I don't necessarily believe so. Do you not think there is pride in the phrase the claim that God saw the world he had made as 'very good'? Yey, I think it is there.

I actually believe that there is very little in the world that is not good in the proper proportion for God made it all. But sin has polluted the world so things on not in their proper proportion. We take more than we should and give less than we should. There is too many tears and too little laughter, too much pain and too little joy and, of course, too much hatred and too little love. This is what sin does. It is also what ET proponents seem to do. God has pride in His creation which sin is ruining so He naturally opposes sin and naturally does not oppose His creation as it should be. Such are my feeling anyway.

Unbroken Hearts

It needs to be said clearly that God's character is not on trial. The judge of all the earth will do what is right (see Gen. 18:25). Our faith is on trial. Our hearts are on trial. But God is not on trial. Whatever judgment He makes regarding those who have not responded to the gospel will be executed according to His standards of equally perfect righteousness and love.

When we ponder God's mercy, this whole issue is inverted. Because God is perfectly holy, the wonder is not that some will be lost. The greater wonder is that anyone from rebellious humanity will be saved! Only Christ's work on the cross could reconcile us to God.

God has put down the most massive roadblock possible to stop humanity's mad rush toward hell. He sent His Son. God intervened personally through Christ. His sacrifice on the cross paid the penalty for our sins. This is the good news for all who will believe and receive Him.

Espousing Universalism is sad. But rejecting it with no impact on our hearts or change in our priorities is sinister. If we believe that people are lost outside of Christ (and they are), and that faith in Christ is the only way of salvation (and it is), what could possibly be a higher priority than getting the gospel as far as we can as fast as we can?

To pronounce people "saved" who are obviously enslaved by darkness, deception and the devil is surely the cruelest of jokes. We are sent to a lost world with a gospel of power. Our message gives the spiritually blind their sight and liberates those who are chained by Satan. We do not preach that people are forgiven but that they can be forgiven.

I would not want to stand before Jesus Christ as a Universalist. But neither would I want to stand before the Lord as an evangelical who was not evangelistic. What a serious accounting must await us if we believe in eternal torment for those without faith in Christ--and yet do nothing! A recovery of biblical truth and compassionate evangelism are the twin screaming needs of the American church.

The apostle Paul said he would be willing to give up his place in Christ if by such a sacrifice others would be saved (see Rom. 9:2-3). He believed all people outside Christ were lost, and it left him with a broken heart.

More than encroaching Universalism, it is our unbroken hearts that often impede evangelism. Many Christians today have never even heard of "a burden for the lost." The harvest is huge and ready to be reaped by those who are willing to sow first in tears (see Ps. 126:5-6).

Right theology will only indict us if we do not recapture the evangelistic imperative. We must believe the truth, and we must act on what we believe. Let's not just reject faulty theology; let's embrace those who need Jesus.

David Shibley is president of Global Advance, a ministry that provides training and resources for thousands of pastors in developing nations."

No God is not on trial but we are. For declaring that God will do what is right but declaring that to be things we would normally think sound wrong, for taking a word like 'Holy' and co-opting it to overrule God's other characteristics as we would normally understand them.

The fact is most of this article seemed to be a repeated arguing of the same point, that only those who believe in Jesus are saved. It then tried to imply an obvious lack of such belief in most people in the world and an in this lifetime timetable in which to find it which no evidence seemed forthcoming for.

[marie glen]

Someone rang the doorbell this morning, and left a flyer.  This gift came from some local Baptist church, and mentioned "hell."  I think I may send it back with a printed copy of "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No."  Got a laser printer now - so cheap to print.  Benjamin Franklin would have been astounded, and for that matter, Gutenberg.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

The fact is most of this article seemed to be a repeated arguing of the same point, that only those who believe in Jesus are saved. It then tried to imply an obvious lack of such belief in most people in the world and an in this lifetime timetable in which to find it which no evidence seemed forthcoming for.[/color]

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...absolutely.. :iagree:

There's really only one verse, I can think of.. maybe I've missed something :dontknow: that could seem to imply, once this life (time) is over "all hope is lost". And that is when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent, you will die in your sins".

Well, all that suggests to me, is - the 2nd resurrection.. those who died still in their sins, will rise still in their sins.. they arrive, so to speak-
DOA ("dead on arrival").

But!! Surely(?) the day of review, when "the books are opened" and all are judged by what's written in the books (metaphor, I'm thinking likely, yet it's all 'written' in His awareness!). I'm just thinking Day of Judgment, must be a very long 'day' - indeed because of the timing of the ancient fall feasts - which in all likelihood prophecy His long 2nd advent, as the spring ones were fulfilled by His 1st advent..

I think this - trumpets, then 10 days later / 1000 years later - Judgment 'Day' or rather Day Of Atonement (DOA 4 the DOA) - then after 5 days / 500 years(?) - Tabernacles when all things are made new and God will now tabernacle with man.. He being "all in all"... Revelation 21:1-5(!!)

So to my mind, this suggests Judgment Day (surprise! Day Of Atonement, historically, Israel's collective day of repentance, weeping, and forgiveness) will last somewhere around 500 years.. an intense review of all human history.. (not a happy story, but also the story of every life, how building on sand comes to well, disaster and calamity).

I believe, like the verse - those not believing will go to the lake of fire (washing, age-lasting) is not 'said' until the end of that long 'day' and by then - after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing a long 'day' of the review of all things.. who's not going to "believe"? Maybe some few really hard cases!?

It was all the old pagan religions which believed in an after life and going to either a paradise or a place of the damned, depending on if you had done good or bad during your life..

If those who do not find faith during this life  - or even never heard the gospel - are to perish, why resurrect them? to toss them away into a lake of unending torment?

The longer one disbelieves the theory/doctrine, the more ridiculous and unfounded it becomes.. I don't try to persuade folks though, not usually, unless led to, I guess, I just quote the verses (weave them in) which say it openly..
    :Peace2: :smile: God bless!

[rosered]

 

  Good post  sister Marie  :thumbsup:

Hi CST ,
  I take comfort in knowing that even if   many do not fully understand the  work of God   though Jesus Christ     reconciling the world  to Himself    as  UR   
shares many of those concepts

     The deceiver and deceived are   His ,  The UR  group has come to the conclusion  that  ALL  IS OF GOD FOR GOD AND THOUGH GOD  , and has  put no stock in mankind's   assumptions   as well meaning as they might be .

GOD IS IN CONTROL  ,   that pretty much sums up  all  the arguments  for me .

God is pure Holy and does not  change   but sure does change us by Him working in us though His Word and Spirit of truth in  Love [grace upon us all ]

  This old  as the hills  manuscript  in Job explains very well  , that Job spoke what was right in the sight of God and   for me I do agree with Jobs perspective  in this day  and time  and has not changed   mans wisdom of God is foolishness   and it is only by the Holy Spirit  teaching us   that any of us have anything  at all   to hope in , It is Gods Wisdom  that  Light and knowledge   that will save the world  in Whom God sent His only begotten Son  because He loved  and IS LOVE     .I do not doubt   God but believe  He will be all in all just as the scriptures proclaim .

  Job 12 (NASB)

12 Then Job responded,

2 "Truly then you are the people,
And with you wisdom will die!
3 "But I have intelligence as well as you;
I am not inferior to you.
And who does not know such things as these?
4 "I am a joke to my friends,
The one who called on God and He answered him;
The just and blameless man is a joke.
5 "He who is at ease holds calamity in contempt,
As prepared for those whose feet slip.

6 "The tents of the destroyers prosper,
And those who provoke God are secure,
Whom God brings into their power.
7 "But now ask the beasts, and let them teach you;
And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you.
8 "Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you;
And let the fish of the sea declare to you.

9 "Who among all these does not know
That the hand of the Lord has done this,
10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing,
And the breath of all mankind?

11 "Does not the ear test words,
As the palate tastes its food?
12 "Wisdom is with aged men,
With long life is understanding.
13 "With Him are wisdom and might;
To Him belong counsel and understanding.

14 "Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt;
He imprisons a man, and there can be no release.
15 "Behold, He restrains the waters, and they dry up;
And He sends them out, and they inundate the earth.

16 "With Him are strength and sound wisdom,
The misled and the misleader belong to Him.
17 "He makes counselors walk barefoot
And makes fools of judges.

18 "He loosens the bond of kings
And binds their loins with a girdle.
19 "He makes priests walk barefoot
And overthrows the secure ones.

20 "He deprives the trusted ones of speech
And takes away the discernment of the elders.
21 "He pours contempt on nobles
And loosens the belt of the strong.
22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness
And brings the deep darkness into light.


23 "He makes the nations great, then destroys them;
He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
24 "He deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.

25 "They grope in darkness with no light,
And He makes them stagger like a drunken man.

But our  faith and  hope and love is in the LORD   JESUS CHRIST THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD     that Job fully knows  now, as well :HeartThrob:

[CST]

The fact is most of this article seemed to be a repeated arguing of the same point, that only those who believe in Jesus are saved. It then tried to imply an obvious lack of such belief in most people in the world and an in this lifetime timetable in which to find it which no evidence seemed forthcoming for.[/color]

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...absolutely.. :iagree:

There's really only one verse, I can think of.. maybe I've missed something :dontknow: that could seem to imply, once this life (time) is over "all hope is lost". And that is when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent, you will die in your sins".

Well, all that suggests to me, is - the 2nd resurrection.. those who died still in their sins, will rise still in their sins.. they arrive, so to speak-
DOA ("dead on arrival").

But!! Surely(?) the day of review, when "the books are opened" and all are judged by what's written in the books (metaphor, I'm thinking likely, yet it's all 'written' in His awareness!). I'm just thinking Day of Judgment, must be a very long 'day' - indeed because of the timing of the ancient fall feasts - which in all likelihood prophecy His long 2nd advent, as the spring ones were fulfilled by His 1st advent..

I think this - trumpets, then 10 days later / 1000 years later - Judgment 'Day' or rather Day Of Atonement (DOA 4 the DOA) - then after 5 days / 500 years(?) - Tabernacles when all things are made new and God will now tabernacle with man.. He being "all in all"... Revelation 21:1-5(!!)

So to my mind, this suggests Judgment Day (surprise! Day Of Atonement, historically, Israel's collective day of repentance, weeping, and forgiveness) will last somewhere around 500 years.. an intense review of all human history.. (not a happy story, but also the story of every life, how building on sand comes to well, disaster and calamity).

I believe, like the verse - those not believing will go to the lake of fire (washing, age-lasting) is not 'said' until the end of that long 'day' and by then - after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing a long 'day' of the review of all things.. who's not going to "believe"? Maybe some few really hard cases!?

It was all the old pagan religions which believed in an after life and going to either a paradise or a place of the damned, depending on if you had done good or bad during your life..

If those who do not find faith during this life  - or even never heard the gospel - are to perish, why resurrect them? to toss them away into a lake of unending torment?

The longer one disbelieves the theory/doctrine, the more ridiculous and unfounded it becomes.. I don't try to persuade folks though, not usually, unless led to, I guess, I just quote the verses (weave them in) which say it openly..
    :Peace2: :smile: God bless!

Indeed, I'm not sure if this I'm entirely in agreement with everything you say here but certainly it seems the judgement is going to take a very long time, it's hard to imagine all the lives of everyone who's ever walked the Earth could be reviewed in 24 hours. At the same time that's clearly not the exclusive use of the word 'day' in the Bible. It's hard to be sure how this will work or how metaphorical the Revelation is being but I suspect the judgement will stop for nightfall. So we could be looking at one long day that has a time span of 500 years. I feel not knowing how time will work or not work in the age to come (though I can't really imagine it being much different) makes it hard to discuss such details with certainty. But we, again, we can agree it feels like something that will take a very long time.

On the matter of why resurrect people just to throw them into the lake of fire. Earlier in the thread as I recall, you mentioned you were unconvinced by the idea that justice must be seen to be done.

As I understand the thinking behind this is that in the Old Testament particularly there are a lot of complaints from people to God about the fact they've seen God's enemies to horrible things and then live, so far as they can see (I try not to ascribe to others assumptions about this) really happy lives and die peacefully in their beds. God promised to address this.

Also in this day and age (perhaps more in stories than reality but it happens in reality too) people commit suicide to try and escape justice. Well, so the understand goes, God is justice and He cannot allow this. He cannot allow people even by dying to escape from what they deserve be the good or ill. Don't worry about my belief in UR here I also believe God's justice does not allow people to oppose Him forever in everlasting torment or annihilation either.

By the same order as above some people commit suicide through pain, fear or sorrow. Now here's the thing I don't believe people wake up at the the resurrection with whatever torments that led them to kill themselves gone. And until they can be removed they can't find their way into heaven. Of course know one needs to torment them in Hell either they're tormenting themselves enough already, I suspect they still need to work through that but yes I imagine what they learn at judgement might well help.

Ultimately though I don't believe people wake up at the judgement especially different to what they were when they died. However odd it would be to resurrect people solely to condemn them to the lake of fire it would be odder still if they were raised and there was no or little continuity between the people that are being judged and the things they have been judged for. That really would be pointless.

But I'm certainly open to the sort growth you argue for I can just see a few obstacles.

Although as you say the story of human history is not a happy story but it may not be as sad as current experience would suggest. After all many people seem to live reasonably happy lives and often stories don't seem happy ones until you get to the end.

Now on the matter of why ET proponents believe that we only have this lifetime to repent. I think they are interpreting (badly) from when Jesus says to Thomas "you have believed because you have seen, blessed is he who believes and has not seen" (or similar.)

The point is that they've come to believe in faith in the modern sense (as I understand) and thus played into the hands of the humanists, materialists and empiricists (particularly the last group) believing that faith means believing in anything and everything without any evidence for it. Faith has become a polite word for credulity. The idea is that because they think that faith is something you choose not something that chooses you, you must choose belief in this lifetime because when you awake in the next one you will see and the moment for faith will have passed.

As far as know that's not primarily what faith is, if it was Thomas would be domed as would anyone else who accepted Jesus on account of some miracle that he did. Remember faith is fidelity, it's trust. The point is that God has made us promises but we can't ever know if He'll deliver them until He delivers them. Because that's you future and there's know way we can be shown that. We have faith based the the pledges He's given us in the past but they can't prove conclusively He'll deliver on them only waiting can do that. And so we wait in faith.

Such is the marriage metaphor because marriage is the same, the bride and groom make vows to each other trust each other to keep them never being able to prove that they finally will.  That's faith and this new rationalized concept of it is ruining it.

  Good post  sister Marie  :thumbsup:

Hi CST ,
  I take comfort in knowing that even if   many do not fully understand the  work of God   though Jesus Christ     reconciling the world  to Himself    as  UR   
shares many of those concepts

     The deceiver and deceived are   His ,  The UR  group has come to the conclusion  that  ALL  IS OF GOD FOR GOD AND THOUGH GOD  , and has  put no stock in mankind's   assumptions   as well meaning as they might be .

GOD IS IN CONTROL  ,   that pretty much sums up  all  the arguments  for me .

God is pure Holy and does not  change   but sure does change us by Him working in us though His Word and Spirit of truth in  Love [grace upon us all ]

  This old  as the hills  manuscript  in Job explains very well  , that Job spoke what was right in the sight of God and   for me I do agree with Jobs perspective  in this day  and time  and has not changed   mans wisdom of God is foolishness   and it is only by the Holy Spirit  teaching us   that any of us have anything  at all   to hope in , It is Gods Wisdom  that  Light and knowledge   that will save the world  in Whom God sent His only begotten Son  because He loved  and IS LOVE     .I do not doubt   God but believe  He will be all in all just as the scriptures proclaim .

  Job 12 (NASB)

12 Then Job responded,

2 "Truly then you are the people,
And with you wisdom will die!
3 "But I have intelligence as well as you;
I am not inferior to you.
And who does not know such things as these?
4 "I am a joke to my friends,
The one who called on God and He answered him;
The just and blameless man is a joke.
5 "He who is at ease holds calamity in contempt,
As prepared for those whose feet slip.

6 "The tents of the destroyers prosper,
And those who provoke God are secure,
Whom God brings into their power.
7 "But now ask the beasts, and let them teach you;
And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you.
8 "Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you;
And let the fish of the sea declare to you.

9 "Who among all these does not know
That the hand of the Lord has done this,
10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing,
And the breath of all mankind?

11 "Does not the ear test words,
As the palate tastes its food?
12 "Wisdom is with aged men,
With long life is understanding.
13 "With Him are wisdom and might;
To Him belong counsel and understanding.

14 "Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt;
He imprisons a man, and there can be no release.
15 "Behold, He restrains the waters, and they dry up;
And He sends them out, and they inundate the earth.

16 "With Him are strength and sound wisdom,
The misled and the misleader belong to Him.
17 "He makes counselors walk barefoot
And makes fools of judges.

18 "He loosens the bond of kings
And binds their loins with a girdle.
19 "He makes priests walk barefoot
And overthrows the secure ones.

20 "He deprives the trusted ones of speech
And takes away the discernment of the elders.
21 "He pours contempt on nobles
And loosens the belt of the strong.
22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness
And brings the deep darkness into light.


23 "He makes the nations great, then destroys them;
He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
24 "He deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.

25 "They grope in darkness with no light,
And He makes them stagger like a drunken man.

But our  faith and  hope and love is in the LORD   JESUS CHRIST THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD     that Job fully knows  now, as well :HeartThrob:

Thanks very much I take it you are saying that we're basically in agreement on the content of my rather long post and most of the UR church agrees too.

I'm struggling to be sure especially as I'm a bit poor of understanding Job. Some quotes in there make me quite uncomfortable.

The idea of us changing also alarms me a little because I'm not sure which bits of us it refers too. It worries me for reasons of continuity that I mentioned to Marie above.

[marie glen]

And so we wait in faith.

:goodpost: you know, I very much agree.. the despots through history.. I hope they don't get off easy! (I do tend to forget about them at times.. and think of the every day people.. and the victims of oppressors.. And I think it's a good thing for folks who have suffered under someone doing evil, to be able to think of judgment day as a day of.. balancing the scales.. I do think there will be a lot of darkness and gnashing of teeth.. and a lot of weeping.. (even from the 'elect' and all watchers/i.e,all of us) on that day.. absolutely..

and think of all the unresolved issues.. truth is an iron rod.. (sometimes i find myself thinking perhaps the lof is concurrent with day of judgment, that the elect go through the lof in this life, unless they go wayward then get a share during judgment day, but there's other lof's too? the one of armegeddon? the one at the 'end' of the millenium? Rev 20:7-10,-but i believe the false prophet and beast of this verse are not persons.. :icon_jokercolor:  :sigh:  :Peace2: straying into prophecy :laughing7: )

[rosered]

CST

Thanks very much I take it you are saying that we're basically in agreement on the content of my rather long post and most of the UR church agrees too.

I'm struggling to be sure especially as I'm a bit poor of understanding Job. Some quotes in there make me quite uncomfortable.

The idea of us changing also alarms me a little because I'm not sure which bits of us it refers too. It worries me for reasons of continuity that I mentioned to Marie above.

Hi CST ,

  Thank you for your comment...   
     The only quotes      to not put any stock in  Job ,is his friends they do NOT speak what is right about God ....

But  we know the  misled and the  misleading are still Gods  to deal with ..

You are    being honest   and clear   :thumbsup:  I hope to be  as well . :gimmefive:

I do believe it is all perspective     and how we see   , to be honest when    I wanted to know  about God and His will   and see His face ,  I could not see anything except   there is some mysterious  God far away and      am  waiting here in the darkness   for Him , that little mustard seed of faith     was it !

I found it all so overwhelming   , and  when I heard this or that about Him   ,  I   questioned everything and  everyone ...

But no settling it   deep within  , Till the Lord come      and made a way   , I hope this helps you  as it has  me   to understand   a few   things that sound  bizarre

  All my entire life     till the Lord come  was   just me outside  looking in    and it was  darkly   and obscure   and an entirely different language      that was spiritual  and my own carnal mind could never    just  '' believe ''  ...

Till  the Lord started showing me and  I begin asking Him   to help me    change ''understand ''    what He  means and    what is this  Lord ?   
These child like questions    to my teacher   for answers

    We  are to eat HIS  BODY and drink His blood to have life in us    , this made no sense to me   , How do I do this Lord ? 

  We are eating the WORD / BIBLE /  Jesus Christ is the word made flesh         we are consuming  everything  within it  and it is coming out of us , this is how we can relate to every name in the book  , when you see yourself   in those examples  and recognize     the outcome , you can see where you are at   and  we are to be JUST LIKE JESUS CHRIST    whom was everything a  servant  and Son of God and Son of  man  and      King of Israel    etc  , shepherd   ,  when  Peter was told to feed   His lambs   , Peter become a shepherd  watching over the flock and   feeding  them the WORD OF GOD    ,

    many places we can see   Jesus Christ and when you see Jesus Christ you can see God , the pure in heart shall see God  ,


   Jesus Christ is the pure heart   whom loves  His Father and all mankind     even when they were enemies   , He died for us .


  So when we read it at first     the Word is dead in us , the carnal mind is death  and a trap ,     and becomes alive in us   though the   Spirit of Life , and this  two edged Sword'' WORD ''  with    the Holy Spirit and fire   begin to divide us  .     death and life , above and below   ,  left and  right , sheep and goats    etc ..

   Under the law  and knowledge of sin  it puts us to death as in Adam all die and all mouths will be stopped , no bragging  of what the flesh did   to experience God .

    God is a consuming fire   His Word is Law and judges us all    but in Christ we are made alive      and this is by the Holy Spirit and word living in us jars of clay .


I know when we taste the Lord and know He is good  you will begin to  see these  scriptures differently   .

  We are like little book worms eating up the book  of the dead and the living  and consuming  it  in our thoughts and  remembering  and applying it  ,

   as we are guided by the Holy   works of FATHER and the SON      this fire   kindled making Light   and destroying the wicked  works of old .

Knowing this may sound strange to you  , but    we are  eating  the Word of Life to have life in us  also  .

Can we remember  before the Lord got a hold of us   and   the bible was   something so foreign  when you opened it up , it did not  make any   sense all by itself

and   like puzzle  pieces    trying to make them fit in a  wrong place  , just did not  look right  to you ?

    For me, I know the Lord,   put that burning desire in me to look for  answers     , seek , knock and ask   for more and more Holy Spirit  truth   , His word it is truth   and the truth sets us free    from that binding  of death  within  us  .


 

[CST]

And so we wait in faith.

:goodpost: you know, I very much agree.. the despots through history.. I hope they don't get off easy! (I do tend to forget about them at times.. and think of the every day people.. and the victims of oppressors.. And I think it's a good thing for folks who have suffered under someone doing evil, to be able to think of judgment day as a day of.. balancing the scales.. I do think there will be a lot of darkness and gnashing of teeth.. and a lot of weeping.. (even from the 'elect' and all watchers/i.e,all of us) on that day.. absolutely..

and think of all the unresolved issues.. truth is an iron rod.. (sometimes i find myself thinking perhaps the lof is concurrent with day of judgment, that the elect go through the lof in this life, unless they go wayward then get a share during judgment day, but there's other lof's too? the one of armegeddon? the one at the 'end' of the millenium? Rev 20:7-10,-but i believe the false prophet and beast of this verse are not persons.. :icon_jokercolor:  :sigh:  :Peace2: straying into prophecy :laughing7: )

Thanks, I wasn't necessarily thinking of despots and tyrants I was thinking of people in the neighbourhood who just seem unpleasant and seem to die at peace. Of cause this, it needs to remembered, it just perception often caused by the log in out eye. We go through life and mainly we encounter people who we might not cross paths with for very long or some for much longer and we hope the'll get an easy ride which others we see differently and hope will get what we have decided they deserve. This is not God's way. There is a very palpable trap in this that's very hard not to fall intyo but we need to try. Gentle chastisement and teasing every time if possible.

I have a hard time believe the Beast from the sea to actually be a person or persons the false prophet which I think but can't remember for sure, is identified with the Beast from the earth is harder for be not to see as at least embodied in a person for a time. Though that partially to do with things about the Beast I understand from my interpretation of Revelation.

CST

Thanks very much I take it you are saying that we're basically in agreement on the content of my rather long post and most of the UR church agrees too.

I'm struggling to be sure especially as I'm a bit poor of understanding Job. Some quotes in there make me quite uncomfortable.

The idea of us changing also alarms me a little because I'm not sure which bits of us it refers too. It worries me for reasons of continuity that I mentioned to Marie above.

Hi CST ,

  Thank you for your comment...   
     The only quotes      to not put any stock in  Job ,is his friends they do NOT speak what is right about God ....

But  we know the  misled and the  misleading are still Gods  to deal with ..

You are    being honest   and clear   :thumbsup:  I hope to be  as well . :gimmefive:

I do believe it is all perspective     and how we see   , to be honest when    I wanted to know  about God and His will   and see His face ,  I could not see anything except   there is some mysterious  God far away and      am  waiting here in the darkness   for Him , that little mustard seed of faith     was it !

I found it all so overwhelming   , and  when I heard this or that about Him   ,  I   questioned everything and  everyone ...

But no settling it   deep within  , Till the Lord come      and made a way   , I hope this helps you  as it has  me   to understand   a few   things that sound  bizarre

  All my entire life     till the Lord come  was   just me outside  looking in    and it was  darkly   and obscure   and an entirely different language      that was spiritual  and my own carnal mind could never    just  " believe "  ...

Till  the Lord started showing me and  I begin asking Him   to help me    change "understand "    what He  means and    what is this  Lord ?   
These child like questions    to my teacher   for answers

    We  are to eat HIS  BODY and drink His blood to have life in us    , this made no sense to me   , How do I do this Lord ? 

  We are eating the WORD / BIBLE /  Jesus Christ is the word made flesh         we are consuming  everything  within it  and it is coming out of us , this is how we can relate to every name in the book  , when you see yourself   in those examples  and recognize     the outcome , you can see where you are at   and  we are to be JUST LIKE JESUS CHRIST    whom was everything a  servant  and Son of God and Son of  man  and      King of Israel    etc  , shepherd   ,  when  Peter was told to feed   His lambs   , Peter become a shepherd  watching over the flock and   feeding  them the WORD OF GOD    ,

    many places we can see   Jesus Christ and when you see Jesus Christ you can see God , the pure in heart shall see God  ,


   Jesus Christ is the pure heart   whom loves  His Father and all mankind     even when they were enemies   , He died for us .


  So when we read it at first     the Word is dead in us , the carnal mind is death  and a trap ,     and becomes alive in us   though the   Spirit of Life , and this  two edged Sword" WORD "  with    the Holy Spirit and fire   begin to divide us  .     death and life , above and below   ,  left and  right , sheep and goats    etc ..

   Under the law  and knowledge of sin  it puts us to death as in Adam all die and all mouths will be stopped , no bragging  of what the flesh did   to experience God .

    God is a consuming fire   His Word is Law and judges us all    but in Christ we are made alive      and this is by the Holy Spirit and word living in us jars of clay .


I know when we taste the Lord and know He is good  you will begin to  see these  scriptures differently   .

  We are like little book worms eating up the book  of the dead and the living  and consuming  it  in our thoughts and  remembering  and applying it  ,

   as we are guided by the Holy   works of FATHER and the SON      this fire   kindled making Light   and destroying the wicked  works of old .

Knowing this may sound strange to you  , but    we are  eating  the Word of Life to have life in us  also  .

Can we remember  before the Lord got a hold of us   and   the bible was   something so foreign  when you opened it up , it did not  make any   sense all by itself

and   like puzzle  pieces    trying to make them fit in a  wrong place  , just did not  look right  to you ?

    For me, I know the Lord,   put that burning desire in me to look for  answers     , seek , knock and ask   for more and more Holy Spirit  truth   , His word it is truth   and the truth sets us free    from that binding  of death  within  us  .


 

You seem to have a better relationship with the LORD there than I feel I do or ever expect to in the near future. I pray and i'm not sure whether I get answers of not, I can't test them because I don't know what measure to use. At the same time I think it terribly implausible that our very generous God isn't answering many of my requests even if I'm not sure I can feel I'm moving forward with what either I would want or He would want, if I thought I was doing either I'd like to think it would be helpful.

When I talked about quotes in Job I was referring entirely to some of the lines in the passage you provided (I can't remember much else at this time) which it seems pretty clear are all Job.

He says things like, "Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt; He imprisons a man and there can be no release." the Damanation camp love these sort of lines because they seem to support there cause. Obviously God has the power to reverse both actions but generally speaking why would He? That would make the original act seem reckless. It's easy to claim that Job is right, his words might be but I'm not sure his attidue is. The content of this speech seems a lot like the speech in Bruce Almighty which includes such lines as Bruce comparing God to a kid with a magnifying glass

As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.

I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.

The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.

[eaglesway]

I think when it says "When God imprisons a man there can be no release" it just means you aint gonna break out, you r stayin till you hav "paid the last penny"...

When it says where "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched", it means, "You ain't gettin relief until God gets at what He is after in you" ...

:2c:

[rosered]

  Wow , had   missed this    response ! :doh: Sorry Chris   

I think when it says "When God imprisons a man there can be no release" it just means you aint gonna break out, you r stayin till you hav "paid the last penny"...

When it says where "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched", it means, "You ain't gettin relief until God gets at what He is after in you" ...

:2c:

AMEN!! :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:

and the scriptures that helps  me also in the Old testament when God was  dealing with the flesh  /carnal man ,  by His Spirit and Word of truth   

  them  hardships  and  experiences changed them all  to become   more spiritually aware    and  are found faithful   though the test ,
  the hour of trial that shall come upon the whole world to test them  , I do believe we have many examples already   to glean from and their   end results

Ezek 14 even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

New Living Translation
Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign LORD.

English Standard Version
even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD.

New American Standard Bible
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.



 

[darryl]

 
[/quote]



As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.

I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.

The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.
[/quote]

I have problems with some stuff in the Bible too...Origin believed there were 2, or 3 ?, layers to each Bible passage..the literal, the allegorical, and...oh, I forget the 3rd..anyway, reading some of this 'difficult' stuff in a allegorical way helps me somewhat.I guess when we get to the next life alot of these things will be clearer.

[eaglesway]

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.


Our morality is very much affected by our survival instinct. Since the beginning, God has elevated the testimony of His righteousness above life and death. Abel died for the testimony. Isaac was taken to the point of death for the testimony that Abraham was the friend of God- willing to do what God Himself was bound to do in order to set us free.

All this is about the revelation of the divine nature. The purpose of creation is that God is bringing the whole creation into total freedom. This is  eternal life and it is through the union of a persons heart with God that it flows. God ordained from the beginning that he would redeem the creation from within the creation by the witness of those who represent Him.

The struggle we are in has been going on from the beginning. Cain versus Abel. Noah versus the world that fell into horrendous evil in his day. The Tower of Babel. Pharoah and Moses.

Job stood in his generation as a witness.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Jesus said, "If any man would be my disciple he must take up his cross and come follow me"

If we suffer with Him we will reign in life with Him.

This offends many, and it always has, and it always will.

Job bore witness. He suffered as a servant of God. He received a deeper revelation in return for his suffering and that means a greater witness- the most wonderful prize of all.

All flesh is as grass. The flower fades, the grass withers. The wind comes and takes it away.

[lastpost]

As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.

I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.

The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.


I have problems with some stuff in the Bible too...Origin believed there were 2, or 3 ?, layers to each Bible passage..the literal, the allegorical, and...oh, I forget the 3rd..anyway, reading some of this 'difficult' stuff in a allegorical way helps me somewhat.I guess when we get to the next life alot of these things will be clearer.

Yes, I think Origen was giving the right pointers. I believe that the Bible contains all truth even though it is not complete in records. However, I do not believe the entire Old Testament is literal truth but sometimes legendary. This is unthinkable by many I know, and yet it is a beautiful truth in my opinion, something worthy of the all-seeing and all-knowing God of all, who uses humanity to work out His Plan, permitting them to grow spiritually from stage to stage, step by step - and allowing for their inevitable mistakes by breathing His Spirit into the collection.

We hear many apologists who claim that their concept of God is quite right to carry out abhorrent acts against humanity, rationalising it all with the conclusion that it shows how great is the God of their understanding in the end. If it is needed to be that way for people because no other way can be acceptable, then so be it – as long as there is joy in Heaven at the repentance of one child.

However, I do not follow the same lines of thought personally. While I do agree that a wayward, wicked, ignorant and sinful people needed a strong hand and a mighty Ruler figure as their God in order to prevent them from heaping up inevitable consequence after consequence against themselves, I believe that some of the worst stories only have a grain of truth at their core and what has been built up around that grain is centuries of legend, handed down mouth to mouth until it was written down, and when it was written down sometimes even that writing was lost and had to be remembered giving rise to the introduction of human error, until another opportunity came to have it written down.

This is how I generally accept the compilation of the Old Testament, although it is only presented to give the gist of the way the records were compiled and may not be pedantically accurate.

There are legends of so distant of origin that by the time they were compiled in the days of Solomon they were fragmented. What incomplete assortments that were available to Ezra were collected by the scribe. There can be seen, if one is open to unbiased analysis free from deeply ingrained traditional interpretation, slight differences (e.g. Elohim and Jehovah appear to be from different sources) in the earlier Genesis which contains speculative legends in my opinion – but please note, I do not say they do not provide truth due to the Breath of God which He has put into the pages of the Holy Book.

I believe that the first five books of the currently compiled Bible are seeded with fact and are a collection of legends and ancient traditions which were passed on by word of mouth until the chief scribe Ezra made a concerted effort with his scribes to ensure they were not lost by having them recorded. Records which included collections from the times of the Judges, of Solomon and also of Saul's time.

Some of the stories based around Noah and Abraham exist in a type of substantive form elsewhere which indicates a strong likelihood of their legendary existence before being written down. Poems and stories of the earth flooding were around many hundreds of years before the great leader Noah had the legend enshrined around him.

I also believe that it is quite possible that the only exact words of Moses which were recorded were those of the law as it was written down and therefore remained unaltered by time and man – and then there is the manner in which Moses the meditator received these laws and the input of his own personality and conditioning to consider, which is another subject. Ezra's efforts were re-recorded by Haggai and Zachariah, and Malachi was the last to complete the compilation. Melchizedek was the start of the true inspiration that was to give rise to the seed Spirit-truth to be recorded.

This is my opinion, of course, and to say that God "spoke" every single word "because He is God" being proof of its literal exactness, is to deny that God can cause the preservation of these sacred records in another way, ensuring the validity of the collection of records which man has called the Bible. So while many people need every word to be absolute truth in a literal sense in order to maintain his or her consistent theology, this does not mean that others cannot receive and understand God's truth in another form not so literal.

I believe that a letter is of little value in and of itself, unless it is imbued with inspiration from God's Spirit, that is, Divine Spirit Power. The Spirit Power, in its Divine potency, then imputes into that letter spiritual truths which are conveyed to the mind of the reader or hearer. This is how a Biblical story can have become legendary around the core literal event, and yet still be God's truth in the true and powerful spiritual sense.

In seeing it in this way, which I personally believe is the correct way, the God who is Love is raised up higher in the minds of the worshipper and also in humanity which has not been able to morally accept atrocities attributed to its God - quite rightly in my opinion. So as I have said, the Bible contains the truth and that truth is elevated by considering the method of its manifestation.

The spiritual riches in the Old Testament are an unending stream of wonderful inspiration and revelation, it is a source of unlimited wisdom and direction – and in saying this I am referring to the spiritual understanding held within the deeper meanings of its stories, not in its literal interpretation which, in my opinion, is often not the way it happened.

I think that there comes a time when a child of God is presented, either here or Hereafter, with a choice – have faith in a more loving God and learn to choose yourself what is highest in Love – a call from Christ to come up higher so that He may give of His loving gifts.

[marie glen]

Yes, I think Origen was giving the right pointers. I believe that the Bible contains all truth even though it is not complete in records. However, I do not believe the entire Old Testament is literal truth but sometimes legendary.

I don't, for the most part, disagree with that.. stories were passed down through generations... (all lands have a handed down flood account, carried I believe from the separating at Babel Tower. Some accounts are rather wild, as they will be, by being handed down through humans. with cyclops or the like.. (which flood I believe accounts for some of man's dating of the earth conclusions).

Of course I believe nothing is impossible to God our Father.. making the sun standstill for a day.. creating the universe and life with no death until tresspass.. (Imperfection/sin-"missing the mark" as opposed to God/Life/Perfection - I see no reason for millions, or billions of years for God to accomplish it.. and life coming through endless series of death.. I've studied the theory of time as their god, and it doesn't jive)

The story of Job or Jonah in the belly of the whale.. doesn't matter to me if factual or handed down versions of something slightly less..

Of course we have archaeology which shows the accounts of the wars - destroy those baby burners! don't leave one for seed, which of course they did leave some, and have struggled and suffered over the centuries because of it and still are.. the carrying off to Assyria and Babylon and then from the united Assyria/Babylon empire under Cyrus, their "going home"

(most judgment I think of as results and consequences)

Of course, the New Testament accounts I do believe are pure fact.. the virgin birth ...not as immaculate of a conception as man's theory of "in the beginning there was nothing, it exploded and became everything" :laughing7: the raising of Lazarus... etc, etc.

Even the book of revelation, fact expressed in symbols etc..

Geneologies and the like, I think likely came from the records of men, so discrepancies are not to be unexpected...
      :Peace2: :smile:

[CST]

  Wow , had   missed this    response ! :doh: Sorry Chris   

I think when it says "When God imprisons a man there can be no release" it just means you aint gonna break out, you r stayin till you hav "paid the last penny"...

When it says where "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched", it means, "You ain't gettin relief until God gets at what He is after in you" ...

:2c:

AMEN!! :dsunny:    :HeartThrob:

and the scriptures that helps  me also in the Old testament when God was  dealing with the flesh  /carnal man ,  by His Spirit and Word of truth   

  them  hardships  and  experiences changed them all  to become   more spiritually aware    and  are found faithful   though the test ,
  the hour of trial that shall come upon the whole world to test them  , I do believe we have many examples already   to glean from and their   end results

Ezek 14 even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

New Living Translation
Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign LORD.

English Standard Version
even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD.

New American Standard Bible
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.

Thanks, Rose. I just thought I'd gotten too deep or petulant or something. Or else you'd found more interesting stuff to discuss.

 

As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.

I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.

The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.
[/quote]

I have problems with some stuff in the Bible too...Origin believed there were 2, or 3 ?, layers to each Bible passage..the literal, the allegorical, and...oh, I forget the 3rd..anyway, reading some of this 'difficult' stuff in a allegorical way helps me somewhat.I guess when we get to the next life alot of these things will be clearer.
[/quote]

Ultimately I believe medieval theology decided there were four layers but I can't remember what they were either. I'm not sure how any of them would make me think the basic story of Job sounds any better. Four layers of meaning doesn't change the narrative or bring Job's original children back from the dead.

But I agree we'll have to wait for time to work out our answers.

As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.

I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.

The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.


I have problems with some stuff in the Bible too...Origin believed there were 2, or 3 ?, layers to each Bible passage..the literal, the allegorical, and...oh, I forget the 3rd..anyway, reading some of this 'difficult' stuff in a allegorical way helps me somewhat.I guess when we get to the next life alot of these things will be clearer.

Yes, I think Origen was giving the right pointers. I believe that the Bible contains all truth even though it is not complete in records. However, I do not believe the entire Old Testament is literal truth but sometimes legendary. This is unthinkable by many I know, and yet it is a beautiful truth in my opinion, something worthy of the all-seeing and all-knowing God of all, who uses humanity to work out His Plan, permitting them to grow spiritually from stage to stage, step by step - and allowing for their inevitable mistakes by breathing His Spirit into the collection.

We hear many apologists who claim that their concept of God is quite right to carry out abhorrent acts against humanity, rationalising it all with the conclusion that it shows how great is the God of their understanding in the end. If it is needed to be that way for people because no other way can be acceptable, then so be it – as long as there is joy in Heaven at the repentance of one child.

However, I do not follow the same lines of thought personally. While I do agree that a wayward, wicked, ignorant and sinful people needed a strong hand and a mighty Ruler figure as their God in order to prevent them from heaping up inevitable consequence after consequence against themselves, I believe that some of the worst stories only have a grain of truth at their core and what has been built up around that grain is centuries of legend, handed down mouth to mouth until it was written down, and when it was written down sometimes even that writing was lost and had to be remembered giving rise to the introduction of human error, until another opportunity came to have it written down.

This is how I generally accept the compilation of the Old Testament, although it is only presented to give the gist of the way the records were compiled and may not be pedantically accurate.

There are legends of so distant of origin that by the time they were compiled in the days of Solomon they were fragmented. What incomplete assortments that were available to Ezra were collected by the scribe. There can be seen, if one is open to unbiased analysis free from deeply ingrained traditional interpretation, slight differences (e.g. Elohim and Jehovah appear to be from different sources) in the earlier Genesis which contains speculative legends in my opinion – but please note, I do not say they do not provide truth due to the Breath of God which He has put into the pages of the Holy Book.

I believe that the first five books of the currently compiled Bible are seeded with fact and are a collection of legends and ancient traditions which were passed on by word of mouth until the chief scribe Ezra made a concerted effort with his scribes to ensure they were not lost by having them recorded. Records which included collections from the times of the Judges, of Solomon and also of Saul's time.

Some of the stories based around Noah and Abraham exist in a type of substantive form elsewhere which indicates a strong likelihood of their legendary existence before being written down. Poems and stories of the earth flooding were around many hundreds of years before the great leader Noah had the legend enshrined around him.

I also believe that it is quite possible that the only exact words of Moses which were recorded were those of the law as it was written down and therefore remained unaltered by time and man – and then there is the manner in which Moses the meditator received these laws and the input of his own personality and conditioning to consider, which is another subject. Ezra's efforts were re-recorded by Haggai and Zachariah, and Malachi was the last to complete the compilation. Melchizedek was the start of the true inspiration that was to give rise to the seed Spirit-truth to be recorded.

This is my opinion, of course, and to say that God "spoke" every single word "because He is God" being proof of its literal exactness, is to deny that God can cause the preservation of these sacred records in another way, ensuring the validity of the collection of records which man has called the Bible. So while many people need every word to be absolute truth in a literal sense in order to maintain his or her consistent theology, this does not mean that others cannot receive and understand God's truth in another form not so literal.

I believe that a letter is of little value in and of itself, unless it is imbued with inspiration from God's Spirit, that is, Divine Spirit Power. The Spirit Power, in its Divine potency, then imputes into that letter spiritual truths which are conveyed to the mind of the reader or hearer. This is how a Biblical story can have become legendary around the core literal event, and yet still be God's truth in the true and powerful spiritual sense.

In seeing it in this way, which I personally believe is the correct way, the God who is Love is raised up higher in the minds of the worshipper and also in humanity which has not been able to morally accept atrocities attributed to its God - quite rightly in my opinion. So as I have said, the Bible contains the truth and that truth is elevated by considering the method of its manifestation.

The spiritual riches in the Old Testament are an unending stream of wonderful inspiration and revelation, it is a source of unlimited wisdom and direction – and in saying this I am referring to the spiritual understanding held within the deeper meanings of its stories, not in its literal interpretation which, in my opinion, is often not the way it happened.

I think that there comes a time when a child of God is presented, either here or Hereafter, with a choice – have faith in a more loving God and learn to choose yourself what is highest in Love – a call from Christ to come up higher so that He may give of His loving gifts.

Agrees in many senses and yet differs in others. I agree that much of the Old Testament contains tales that are allegorical and not literal histories at the same time there are several stories I don't know how to read allegorically without loosing the meaning of the text.

First of all, Job. Job is certainly easy to read as an allegory from beginning to end, but even reading it as a legend doesn't change the rather cavalier way it presents God. God doesn't become a better character in the book of Job if I read it as an allegory.

I see you alluding to the Documentary Hypothesis there. I've studied that, it's fascinating although I read it different and there are ways, if you understand it, that the 'sources' can be folded back together again and be shown to be written by Moses however allegorical the content. I hold Eden as allegorical, Cain and Abel as probably allegorical but not certainly, and then we reach the flood narrative. I have a problem with that, I really don't want to see that as anything other then allegorical either especially as there are lots of historical difficulties with taking it literally but I have a problem. The Eden story attempts to teach that all the human's of the world can be traced to the same source, which is fine. But the Flood narrative wants us to believe that all the nations (including the Egyptians) that figure in the narrative of the Bible can be traced back  to Noah. This isn't true apparently the Egyptians can be traced back years through an unbroken history that would pass through the flood had it occurred.

Admittedly, I find that a bit suspicious. But I accept it at present and don't know what to do with an apparently irreconciable claim that all the nations in the Bible (I can less about the wider world) were descended from Noah.

Also, according to archaeology, all those nations that Israel invaded and slaughtered?  No evidence to support it. Which is great for morality but bad for biblical apologists.

Thank goodness UR assures us that God will save all the people who ever lived. Just not sure what will happen if it turns out those people don't include the likes of Noah, Abraham and Moses owing to them being fictional.  That's  a confusing concept.

[GodIsLove]

Some Christians don't like Rob Bell's teachings because he is super liberal in his theology. I read and enjoy his stuff but I know some don't.  He has an online blog series called "what is the bible" that you can Google if you are interested.

He dissects the bible but over and over in the series he comes back to the idea that the bible was written by man and has to first and foremost be seen through this lens. Imperfect man trying to explain what they saw, heard, or what was passed down to them. But in the same breath, Rob says that doesn't discount be divine element of the bible. God meets us where we are. Then he transforms us to something higher and closer to Himself, through the bible. God is on every page but man has written the bible, so you are seeing God through man. It is somewhat of a paradox.

I believe spiritually viewing the bible can unite these two seemingly opposing views.

I do believe the bible is the story of God reaching out to man and man reaching out to God. It has spiritual truths throughout. Paul tells us of God's ultimate plan for all. Genesis is the story of how God is creating us. The gospels tell of Jesus walking among us and telling us how to live our lives in the best possible way. They tell of his amazing and earth shattering ministry and death.

I once read that Jesus did not come to save us from and angry God, but to save us from the idea that God is an angry God.

He is the face of God. Merciful, forgiving, loving, saving.

I felt some despair this morning so I decided after some self-defeating thoughts swimming around in my head, I would get quiet and meditate on God's love. I couldn't feel it at the time and I was feeling somewhat stubborn and self-righteous about some things but also wanted to reach out and connect with God so He could save me from myself.

I didn't intend to, but I ended up seeing a vision of Jesus on the cross and felt tears in my eyes.

The old sound bite of "Jesus died to save us from our sins" I believe to be true but in a different way than most. I believe the cross shows us how to live our lives. The cross shows us God's true nature. God is not an angry God. He demands mercy not sacrifice. Jesus did not sacrifice himself for God but instead he did it for us, as an example, so that we should sacrifice ourselves for those around us even when they don't deserve it. Loving and forgiving even when they don't deserve it. Doing so gently and with love. Not resisting. This is how we show God's love and how God saves us and how we serve each other. Jesus showed us how to live. I wish I were better at following his example. 

I'm not saying the above is the ultimate truth, just my own experience and thoughts that I wanted to share. I hope it helps. It's my intention to help and to grow closer to God myself.

[lastpost]

Oh I do not doubt that there were great leaders whom we call Noah and Abraham with the seed-core of truth at the heart of their stories, what I was saying is that even during their own lifetimes there will have been the beginnings of legends being built around them bolstered by and drawn from already existing legends both local and foreign. The good news is that because of the vibrant and dynamic sacred power that God charges the Holy Book with, spiritual revelation is received by the reader – if they are receptive to it. As for the Deluge, I wonder why Noah would let his duck-billed platypuses out of the Ark 4,000 years ago (or so) and then carry them all the way to eastern Australia and Tasmania and then go all the way back home again. Perhaps it was to give us a clue about something.

[rosered]

Thanks, Rose. I just thought I'd gotten too deep or petulant or something. Or else you'd found more interesting stuff to discuss.

     Well   Chris  :laughing7:    ,
  I can laugh ,
  I love the simplicity in Christ   , and  hate to get wrapped up to tight in any "   binding  " and  death clothes ..   those are the filthy  rags after all ... we are warned not to be wearing when Christ returns     .

   I see the world as the thing to overcome   and all that is in it , pomp and pride of life and a death shroud of mystery of iniquity  ...   

    Turning one over  to satan for the destruction of the flesh ,   so in the Day of the Lord his spirit will be saved ,  to me is exactly what Jobs  experience was , IS and will be   , we all get to taste the Job experience  to a certain degree      and yet , many times cannot relate to Job at all , go figure ?

All these examples of what men have  encountered with God   dealing with them and still cannot relate in the slightest ?

  in Job were all the sons of God and satan was  with them  before the Lord  ,   This accuser of the brethren , the liar and thief and  destroyer    was looking whom to pick on    and spotted Job , it was his turn to be  enlightened !! 


   Job 1 6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."...

  Before he was cast out of heaven   entirely , and we see in Rev  12  he sure was !!   no more room for such a rotten   egg    so the   earth and the wrath of that ol dragon    get all the  brunt of    it .

   What helped me to  make a big picture was  knowing that  in Rev 12   the woman is the church  , Christ body being formed  all along the way ,  but we can get a real clue in Rev  ,  to me revelation / REVEALING OF CHRIST  is the KEY that unlocks the   books [ lo I come in the  volume of a book that testifies of ME ]


And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth,

he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    the dragon s flood of lies and filth    is a  river to be dried up for the kings of the east to also be prepared       ,,,     we know if the earth  world  / our motal bodies  swallowed up all that  wrath  against     GODS HOLY SPIRIT       it would  surly cause a lot of chaos in the earth       us namely    not being able to inheit the Kingdom of God 
  Now I see the  HOLY SPIRIT  Fire drying up  all them lies and death and hell and troubles and  [seas , and  voices   rivers etc  tongues and peoples   hardened  even  in the iron furnace of affliction   no more earth and no more sea      , TILL CHRIST BE FORMED IN THEM  ,, 
When you can identify with Fire and Light and Holy Spirit oil   , you sure can see a change is coming , fiery  trials  within us cause the heat  and pressure to build up and out , we can see and outwardly manifestation of what was kept inside to be  revealed when the   rods of iron  strike the   clay pots and   the revealing of the sons of God that were hidden inside   can come forth  by the Spirit of Life consuming    all things that offend  what is Holy and righteous and just and true   

  To the Glory of God  ,  that  is cutting to the chase   , for me , but   there are many , many  things in between to overcome along the way  .

    Things within us that must be done away with in Christ  :dsunny:

   


     ps I am one whom loves to just stick to the Word  for  many answers  , for  me   personally  ,    I have  noticed  God puts  a veil over them  writers   for me and do not know why  :dontknow: , but have found many  get lost in translations   and  meanings and stuff like that   and try ,   being so immature spiritually  speaking , I do believe it was a protection   for my own good ,,,
  I enjoy  thinking about others points of view     especially on this particular forum       , we grow in truth and grace   that ultimately  comes from GOD HIMSELF
 



 

[rosered]

Some Christians don't like Rob Bell's teachings because he is super liberal in his theology. I read and enjoy his stuff but I know some don't.  He has an online blog series called "what is the bible" that you can Google if you are interested.

He dissects the bible but over and over in the series he comes back to the idea that the bible was written by man and has to first and foremost be seen through this lens. Imperfect man trying to explain what they saw, heard, or what was passed down to them. But in the same breath, Rob says that doesn't discount be divine element of the bible. God meets us where we are. Then he transforms us to something higher and closer to Himself, through the bible. God is on every page but man has written the bible, so you are seeing God through man. It is somewhat of a paradox.

I believe spiritually viewing the bible can unite these two seemingly opposing views.

I do believe the bible is the story of God reaching out to man and man reaching out to God. It has spiritual truths throughout. Paul tells us of God's ultimate plan for all. Genesis is the story of how God is creating us. The gospels tell of Jesus walking among us and telling us how to live our lives in the best possible way. They tell of his amazing and earth shattering ministry and death.

I once read that Jesus did not come to save us from and angry God, but to save us from the idea that God is an angry God.

He is the face of God. Merciful, forgiving, loving, saving.

I felt some despair this morning so I decided after some self-defeating thoughts swimming around in my head, I would get quiet and meditate on God's love. I couldn't feel it at the time and I was feeling somewhat stubborn and self-righteous about some things but also wanted to reach out and connect with God so He could save me from myself.

I didn't intend to, but I ended up seeing a vision of Jesus on the cross and felt tears in my eyes.

The old sound bite of "Jesus died to save us from our sins" I believe to be true but in a different way than most. I believe the cross shows us how to live our lives. The cross shows us God's true nature. God is not an angry God. He demands mercy not sacrifice. Jesus did not sacrifice himself for God but instead he did it for us, as an example, so that we should sacrifice ourselves for those around us even when they don't deserve it. Loving and forgiving even when they don't deserve it. Doing so gently and with love. Not resisting. This is how we show God's love and how God saves us and how we serve each other. Jesus showed us how to live. I wish I were better at following his example. 

I'm not saying the above is the ultimate truth, just my own experience and thoughts that I wanted to share. I hope it helps. It's my intention to help and to grow closer to God myself.

    Amen , I  believe that is wonderfully said GIL!!    I too    :iagree:    with you we learn though  others experience  being touched by GOD  as relating to our own !    :HeartThrob:   while you were posting and Lastpost   and  I  was    all 3 and relating to the same things  basically !!!