Gary is requesting focused responses to this article that may be used elsewhere to refute ET.
http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/apologetics/880-24-reasons-why-i-believe-in-hell?tmpl=component&print=1&layout=default&page=
"Some false teachers today would like us to think that everybody will eventually get to heaven. Don't believe them.
William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army and a man who dedicated his life to lifting the poor out of sin and poverty, reportedly made this statement: "Most Christian organizations would like to send their workers to Bible college for five years. I would like to send our workers to hell for five minutes. That would prepare them for a lifetime of compassionate ministry."
Booth never suggested that the desperate people he served were "already in hell." He believed in a real, eternal hell, and it drove him to rescue people from both their current plight and future perdition.
Shortly before his death in 1912, Booth warned prophetically that he saw coming to the church "forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration ... a heaven without a hell."
In today's theological fog, his ominous caveat is unfolding. Even some who claim to believe the Bible are having second thoughts about eternal judgment, and others have rejected the notion of judgment altogether. The name usually given this teaching is Universalism.
Universalism basically is the belief that all people will be saved. Jesus' death and resurrection will automatically, or at least eventually, save the whole human race. Personal repentance and faith in Christ are not necessary for going to heaven. The Christian mission is reduced to announcing to people the "good news" that they are already saved.
But does Scripture teach that everyone will be saved? There is overwhelming biblical evidence to the contrary.
I'd like to offer 24 reasons to reject Universalism. You may be able to add a few of your own.
1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).
2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).
3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).
4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).
6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).
7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).
8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).
9. Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
10. Jesus emphatically taught that a spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).
11. In answer to a very clear question about what is necessary for salvation, Paul gave a very clear answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts. 16:31).
12. Jesus gave no indication that many roads lead to God. He forcefully stated that He was the only way. "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14:6).
13. The early preachers of the church clearly preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12; see also 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).
14. According to Scripture, only those who receive Jesus Christ and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).
15. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; see also 10:9).
16. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgment. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3:18).
17. Only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are granted access into the eternal city of God. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15; see also 21:27).
18. People are not automatically righteous. Only when we declare faith in Jesus Christ does God declare us righteous in His sight. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
19. Eternal life comes only through a relationship with God. We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son. "'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'" (John 17:3).
20. The cross of Christ is where payment for our sins was made. Only when we believe this are we saved. "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [on a cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life'" (John 3:14-15).
21. Only those who have the Son of God have eternal life. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).
In addition to these verses, the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 provides hard evidence against Universalism. Cornelius was devout, prayed often, gave generously to the poor and even received an angelic visitation. Yet God went to great lengths to get the gospel to him so he could come to know Jesus and be saved.
22. Added to the avalanche of scriptural evidence, there are also practical reasons for rejecting Universalism. History teaches that acceding to Universalism sets the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. Soon all confidence in Scripture is lost and the uniqueness of the Christian gospel evaporates.
23. If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent.
24. If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ.
Unbroken Hearts
It needs to be said clearly that God's character is not on trial. The judge of all the earth will do what is right (see Gen. 18:25). Our faith is on trial. Our hearts are on trial. But God is not on trial. Whatever judgment He makes regarding those who have not responded to the gospel will be executed according to His standards of equally perfect righteousness and love.
When we ponder God's mercy, this whole issue is inverted. Because God is perfectly holy, the wonder is not that some will be lost. The greater wonder is that anyone from rebellious humanity will be saved! Only Christ's work on the cross could reconcile us to God.
God has put down the most massive roadblock possible to stop humanity's mad rush toward hell. He sent His Son. God intervened personally through Christ. His sacrifice on the cross paid the penalty for our sins. This is the good news for all who will believe and receive Him.
Espousing Universalism is sad. But rejecting it with no impact on our hearts or change in our priorities is sinister. If we believe that people are lost outside of Christ (and they are), and that faith in Christ is the only way of salvation (and it is), what could possibly be a higher priority than getting the gospel as far as we can as fast as we can?
To pronounce people "saved" who are obviously enslaved by darkness, deception and the devil is surely the cruelest of jokes. We are sent to a lost world with a gospel of power. Our message gives the spiritually blind their sight and liberates those who are chained by Satan. We do not preach that people are forgiven but that they can be forgiven.
I would not want to stand before Jesus Christ as a Universalist. But neither would I want to stand before the Lord as an evangelical who was not evangelistic. What a serious accounting must await us if we believe in eternal torment for those without faith in Christ--and yet do nothing! A recovery of biblical truth and compassionate evangelism are the twin screaming needs of the American church.
The apostle Paul said he would be willing to give up his place in Christ if by such a sacrifice others would be saved (see Rom. 9:2-3). He believed all people outside Christ were lost, and it left him with a broken heart.
More than encroaching Universalism, it is our unbroken hearts that often impede evangelism. Many Christians today have never even heard of "a burden for the lost." The harvest is huge and ready to be reaped by those who are willing to sow first in tears (see Ps. 126:5-6).
Right theology will only indict us if we do not recapture the evangelistic imperative. We must believe the truth, and we must act on what we believe. Let's not just reject faulty theology; let's embrace those who need Jesus.
David Shibley is president of Global Advance, a ministry that provides training and resources for thousands of pastors in developing nations."
One read, but what stuck out the most to me anyway, was that the comments offered are from the basic foundation of orthodox religion and theology expressed from the KJV or any Bible that refuses to omit the word "hell." Fear and control is his forte. The writer of 13 epistles did not speak or teach of "hell" nor did Paul speak or teach of a place of eternal torment of any shade. The "hell" of orthodox religion and theology is a sand foundation, built on the word "hell" that has no description in the Bible as a place of burning forever in flames of a fiery torment. Perhaps a study of Love and forgiveness in even the KJV would, produce a happy face.
"6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule."
Now if David Shibley can show me just where the "often" is, I maybe able to start to take him serious. Like I said just my first read. :HeartThrob: :Peace2:
Jeremiah 23;25 I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say 'I had a dream,I had a dream!"
How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets,who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?
They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name,just as their fathers forgot my name
through baal worship.......for what has straw to do with grain,says the Lord...........[.only grain can feed and nourish.....
only love can conquer all and never fail.]
Is not my word like fire? declares the Lord;and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
1 John 4;8-20 Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.; Whoever does not love does not know God,for God is love
This is how God showed His love among us;He sent His one and only son into the world that we might live through Him.
This is love;not that we loved God ,but that He loved us,and sent His son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
Dear friends,since God so loved us we also ought to love one another. No-one has ever seen God,but if we love one another
God lives in us and His love is made complete in us................
v 19 ,20 we love because He first loved us. 'If anyone says 'I love God but hates his brother,he is a liar"
1 Cor 13; Love and now I will show you the most excellent way...IF I SPEAK IN THE TONGUES OF ANGELS AND MEN;
BUT HAVE NOT LOVE,I AM ONLY A RESOUNDING GONG OR CLASHING CYMBOL.......
.......v 4 love is patient,love is kind. It does not envy,it does not boast,it is not proud. It is not rude..it is not self-seeking
it is not rude and it is not easily angered..IT KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS. Love does not delight in evil,but rejoices in
the truth. It always protects; always trusts; always persevere's. LOVE NEVER FAILS
When I was a child I thought like a child, I talked like a child,I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man I put childish ways behind me.
TIME TO GROW UP IN LOVE AND THE FULLNESS OF THE CHRIST...TIME FOR YOU TO GROW UP IN LOVE
IF WE ARE OUT OF OUR MIND IT IS FOR THE SAKE OF GOD; IF WE ARE IN OUR RIGHT MIND IT IS FOR YOU
FOR CHRIST'S LOVE COMPELS US FOR WE ARE CONVINCED THAT ONE DIED FOR ALL' AND THEREFORE ALL DIED.
AND HE DIED SO THAT THOSE WHO LIVE SHOULD NO LONGER LIVE FOR THEMSELVES' BUT FOR HIM WHO DIED FOR THEM
AND WAS RAISED AGAIN.
ALL THIS IS FROM GOD WHO RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF THROUGH CHRIST;AND GAVE US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION
My biggest problem with this "type" of teaching is how much salvation depends on them, as they use the Name of Jesus CHRIST to win souls under their teaching ...
Hell and fire and graves are for the old man of sin none denies this in the UR camps , but we know the LORD HIMSELF makes the new creatures in Christ
Once the True God has gotten a hold of you , you will never be the same as you were before , and this is Gods work
Who will deny God His holy work and glory ???
Best you can be is a partaker with it , its not yours to boast about , we are the works "'everyone"' is the work of the Lord , everything is HIS !
And for me just because you physically die does not mean the end all for salvation
They will be hard pressed to explain Jesus Christ being the all authority until He Himself is subject to God and God be all in all
The tormented forever and ever is never applied to mankind , it is however applied to the lake of fire , as being such by poor concepts understanding of wording
and a second death is a death /end ?? For those who have not been called out of the world in the here and now and been baptized in Christ death , will experience purging /cleansing , the reason its a second death is because they have physically died first ,but everyone suffers here , for doing good or for doing evil
and a lake of fire is a small area
The simple answer to me is JESUS CHRIST IS THE EVERYTHING and if everything is and come though and made by Him and He is the beginning and end
and behold I make all things NEW Rev 21 Then they sure will be made new in Christ and doubting the Lord and all His work and one great work is abolishing death itself and that is close to blasphemy imo.. :sigh:
yE KNOW NOT WHAT SPIRIT YE ARE OF...........jESUS SPOKE THIS WORD TO THE SONS OF THUNDER.......
AND IN THE REVEALING OF JESUS CHRIST WHEN THE SEVEN THUNDERS SPOKE...I HEARD A VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAY
'SEAL UP WHAT THE SEVEN THUNDERS SAID AND DO NOT WRITE IT DOWN"
YOU HAVE PEOPLE THERE WHO HOLD TO THE TEACHING OF BALAAM WHO TAUGHT BALAAK TO ENTICE THE PEOPLE
TO EAT FOOD SACRIFICED TO IDOLS NUMBERS CH 22,23,24,25
2 peter 2;15 Jude 11 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam,son of Beor who loved
the way of wickedness. Woe to them,they have taken the way of Cain[kill his brother] they have rushed for profit[rushed
judgement/cursed man who God has blessed for wages of sin/mammon] into Balaam's error;
they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion Numbers 16;1-39
Rev 12;16 But the earth helped the woman by opening it's mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of
his mouth[curses...cursed is the earth for thy sake Adam it shall bring forth briars and thorns.]
The I AM[in the ]BUSH....
1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).
Yes, and all will repent as it states in (Phil. 2:10) every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).
Every one will receive it as it says in (Phil. 2:10). Few are chosen now but there will come a time when all will bow the knee in worship.
3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).
Yes, but we will be judged according to what Jesus accomplished on the cross.It is not according to our works because our works do not save us, (Eph. 2:8-9) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD.
4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
Who isn't in one of these catagories? The second death is a spiritual death, a dying to sin. Or a repentance from these works.
5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).
The kingdom of God and Salvation are two different things. Jesus said "I am only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The kingdom of God was promised to the Israelites, salvation is promised to the world.
6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).
If this is such a horrible place why isn't there screaming and hollering? Gnashing of teeth means to grind one teeth. wailing means to express grief or pain. I believe these people will be angry and sorry for being shown their incorrect ways.
7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).
Absolutely. Notice what it says about "while we were still sinners" and now "we are justified by his blood".
8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).
Everyone will believe in him at some point in time. It doesn't say that God so loved the world that he gave his son to save only those who believed. That would leave salvation in our hands, not Jesus'.
9. Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
According to this we must work for our salvation. The word "everlasting" is a mistranslation and can only apply to God.
10. Jesus emphatically taught that a spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).
Yes, and everyone will be born again, in their own order.
11. In answer to a very clear question about what is necessary for salvation, Paul gave a very clear answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts. 16:31).
It also says "no one can come to me unless the Father draw/drag him". (John 6:44) Jesus also said "if I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN TO ME (John 12:32)
12. Jesus gave no indication that many roads lead to God. He forcefully stated that He was the only way. "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14:6).
Absolutely true.
13. The early preachers of the church clearly preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12; see also 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).
Absolutely true.
14. According to Scripture, only those who receive Jesus Christ and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).
Absolutely true but God isn't calling everyone today.
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15. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; see also 10:9).
Not everyone will believe at this time nor is God calling everyone at this time. (Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
16. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgment. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3:18).
No one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1John 4:15) Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God (Phil. 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God.
17. Only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are granted access into the eternal city of God. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15; see also 21:27).
The Book of Life is Jesus and every name will be written there.
18. People are not automatically righteous. Only when we declare faith in Jesus Christ does God declare us righteous in His sight. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
(Rom. 4:16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be BY GRACE; TO THE END THE PROMISE MIGHT BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED;
19. Eternal life comes only through a relationship with God. We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son. "'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'" (John 17:3).
Aoin life will come to all because Jesus is the Saviour of the world.
20. The cross of Christ is where payment for our sins was made. Only when we believe this are we saved. "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [on a cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life'" (John 3:14-15).
If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN TO ME (John 6:44).
21. Only those who have the Son of God have eternal life. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).
(1Cor. 15:28) And when ALL THINGS shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.
In addition to these verses, the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 provides hard evidence against Universalism. Cornelius was devout, prayed often, gave generously to the poor and even received an angelic visitation. Yet God went to great lengths to get the gospel to him so he could come to know Jesus and be saved.
Universalists pray, give to the poor, but no one can come to Christ except God call him. Jesus told his disciples "I have chosen you, you haven't chosen me".
22. Added to the avalanche of scriptural evidence, there are also practical reasons for rejecting Universalism. History teaches that acceding to Universalism sets the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. Soon all confidence in Scripture is lost and the uniqueness of the Christian gospel evaporates.
Not true at all.
23. If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent.
24. If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ.
Jesus said "I have chosen you". Paul was a chosen vessel(1Cor. 1:1) (1Cor. 1:2) Unto the Church of God which is at Corinth, to them that ARE SANTIFIED IN CHRIST JESUS, CALLED TO BE SAINTS. (Eph.. 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. (Col. 1:20) And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF; by him, I say, WHETHER THEY BE THINGS IN EARTH, OR THINGS IN HEAVEN.
CHB
Good job CHB! tho I haven't read your post yet, as I want to look at the 24 myself first.. as I do love a good quiz, etc!! :smile:
Then I will surely read your responses.. :thumbsup:
Me too. Good job CHB. I plan to do a similar response like your format.
I too like quizzes.
CHB....Very well done showing that UR is built on a foundation of Love.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. :dsunny:
to number 22 I would add to the statement regarding theological liberalness..this.....for the creature was subjected to vanity ,not
of it's own will..but by the will of He who subjected it..in order that the whole creation may be SET FREE INTO THE GLORIOUS
LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD.
Personally, I would not blame old General Booth.
In my opinion, if General Booth were asked today, he might say that he may have been ignorant of the love of God in its fuller measure, that he misrepresented Love Divine as he was laughed at scornfully in his sometime bigoted approach of salvation, yet he was sincere. And today he would tell the outcast that the love of God is even in the gutter and even those closest to the Saviour have never understood His Love.
Old orthodox teaching had its place, it played its part in his role, man was outside, he was separate.
The Son of God approaches the suffering.
The suffering is to cleanse the path for His approach.
He is coming to lift them up, as He has done for many.
Man is being raised up, the old flasks are bursting, new Wine of Life flows seeking more space as a river bursting its banks.
There is a message which has more Spirit as the old has been glossed by man's mind.
God is becoming more Divine and less human.
Jesus is for the human race which will become the Christ Race.
Many may doubt, but implanted in man is something which responds to the Person of Jesus and knowledge of Him.
The Spirit can achieve what the letter cannot.
Humanity will have Jesus as He is.
Thanks to you all. :HeartThrob: I feel like I didn't say enough but I was pressed for time. I am sure you all can add a great deal more than I have. :dsunny:
CHB
1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).
Nothing to argue with there.. "For all this I considered in my heart... all things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrifices, and to him that does not sacrifice.. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all.." (from Eccles 9)
2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).
"And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, `The old is good enough.`" (Lk 5:39)
"All will remember and turn to the LORD and all families will worship before Him." (Ps 22:27)
3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).
When He returns He will divide the sheep from the goats (Mt 25:32).. the wheat from the tares.. "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn" (Rev 16:14-16, Armageddon) "but gather the wheat into my barn." (Mt 24:29,31) - Two Harvests-Revelation 14
"..the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment-krisis-decision,judgment" - Strong's #2920 (Jn 5:28,29) "There will be weeping and knashing of teeth.." "The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here." (Mt 12:42)
He is the passover lamb, the unleavened brd, firstfruits(=1st advent) 2nd advent=3 peaks of long 2nd advent, trumpets [10 days/1000yrs later] day of atonement/judgment [5 days/500yrs later] Tabernacles,Rev 21:3-KJV
4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
Worse case scenario - "any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people" Lev 23:29 - agelasting LOF..
Lev 16:33-"atonement for all the ppl" (also, not sentencing til aFter judgment -even those of rev 19:20 thrown to LOF are not persons but institutions of man active in the day of the Lord's return
5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).
Again, the judgement (fiery) in the day of His return, when the goats and sheep, tares and wheat are separated.. the tares to Armageddon (Rev 16:14,15,16)
6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).
Indeed, at His fiery judgment/arrival (with fire and angels 2 Thess 1:7,8) and also for all those who rise "still in their sins" an inferior resurrection followed by the Day/Age? Of Judgment (lasting 500 yrs?) at the end of which, all those not believing will go to the LOF ageduring..
7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).
While we all were still sinners, He died for all of us.. ("the mystery hidden for ages, Christ in us".. the only mystery hidden?)
8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).
Is God Perfect? Perfect makes no mistakes. Loses nothing.
Surely He could see all possibilities, before ever starting the work of creation? And surely He has done all things just the way He has, in order to bring about the BEST of all possibilities? (Surely?!) Because He is Perfect, the 'end' result of all this (human history) can onLy be the utter-best-one-possible. Why in the world would we expect any thing less of Him?
9. Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
"Ever - lasting" is as we know aionian, age-lasting... (worse case scenario)
10. Jesus emphatically taught that a spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).
Amen, no dispute there!
11. In answer to a very clear question about what is necessary for salvation, Paul gave a very clear answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts. 16:31).
Examine ancient Atonement Day.. Israel's national and collective annual repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation day..
'And you shall count seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years.. forty-nine years. Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, on the Day of Atonement throughout all your land." (Lev 25:8,9)
12. Jesus gave no indication that many roads lead to God. He forcefully stated that He was the only way. "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14:6).
Amen, nothing to argue with there.. But do we have to ignore "how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation" 2 cor 5:19..? Jesus saying "if I be lifted up form the earth I will draw all to me" (Jn 12;32, italics are words added by the translators).. etc, etc, etc..
13. The early preachers of the church clearly preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12; see also 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).
"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation" (2 cor 5:19)
14. According to Scripture, only those who receive Jesus Christ and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).
Where does it say after this life no possibility of repentance? Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented they would "die in their sins".. oh to stand before a Holy Holy God, still in ones' sins! .."there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" .."outer darkness"..
15. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; see also 10:9).
ppl think I'm a little crazy, but I believe judgment day will last 500 years and it's only at the end of that day (of intense review for all in heaven and earth) that it is said "those not believing will go to the LOF, the 2nd death.. after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing and living through a long day of the review of all human history, etc., who's not going to "believe"? Doesn't it stand to reason YHVH would make good use of Judgment Day?? To hammer home what we have all learned by taking this unavoidable journey/lesson.. unavoidable if there's to be rationality that is..
16. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgment. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3:18).
I don't see anything at all in that verse, or any other, which says, there is no chance for rehabilitation/repentance except during this very brief lifetime of being born blindly in error.. When Christ returns will He find any logic whatsoever upon earth?
17. Only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are granted access into the eternal city of God. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15; see also 21:27).
How does one get their name written into the Lamb's Book of Life?? Where? Where? does it say only in this brief lifetime is there rehabilitation, salvation, reconciliation..? where??? Don't these (E.T.) folks have Hebrew and Greek Lexicons??!!
18. People are not automatically righteous. Only when we declare faith in Jesus Christ does God declare us righteous in His sight.
Amen!!
"But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
Amen, amen!!
19. Eternal life comes only through a relationship with God. We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son. "'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'" (John 17:3).
After almost 2000 years of being passed down through human hands, the good news has lost some of the GLORY of its message. And after almost 2000 years of being made up of humans, has picked up some baggage along the way.
20. The cross of Christ is where payment for our sins was made. Only when we believe this are we saved. "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [on a cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life'" (John 3:14-15).
"If I be lifted up on the cross I will draw all to me" Jesus, Jn 12:32. (Italics are added words to the text.)
21. Only those who have the Son of God have eternal life. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).
Amen, this is eternally true.
In addition to these verses, the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 provides hard evidence against Universalism. Cornelius was devout, prayed often, gave generously to the poor and even received an angelic visitation. Yet God went to great lengths to get the gospel to him so he could come to know Jesus and be saved.
I daresay God just might be able to do so for everyone.. Oh how we gReatly under estimate Him.. and His Great Plan Of Salvation!
22. Added to the avalanche of scriptural evidence, there are also practical reasons for rejecting Universalism. History teaches that acceding to Universalism sets the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. Soon all confidence in Scripture is lost and the uniqueness of the Christian gospel evaporates.
Universalism as all paths lead to reconciliation is not "Universal Reconciliation". Is God perfect or flawed? Is He all powerful? Or does the will of another prevent His will? Where? is the verse which states it?? It is His will that none perish..
23. If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent.
The denominations and groups become lukewarm.. has nothing to do with UR.. Evangelizing is done by the Spirit of God, not by man and is via the instructions of Jesus. Besides the whole roast in hell talk not only blasphemes God's Holy image and character every single day, but it makes the good news incredibly hard for folks to "believe".
24. If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ.
What a sad and flawed Great Plan Of Salvation to fall so short.. But! It's the Word that gives light.. All those many scriptures.. "He has given all things into My hands" Jesus said. "I will lose nothing He gave me.." .."The truth bears witness of itself." (It becomes evident! Most non believers have no trouble believing UR.) How ironic that the hated doctrine of Molech-the Baal of Canaan, which God SO hated, has become wrapped up into the gospel/good news of His Kingdom! Just imagine a universe made new, full of endless peace and joy.. amidst the backdrop of screams of endless torture.. really? and UR is put on the defensive??
:smile:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 15, 2015, 10:08:47 PM
CHB....Very well done showing that UR is built on a foundation of Love.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. :dsunny:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on April 15, 2015, 08:38:35 PM
yE KNOW NOT WHAT SPIRIT YE ARE OF.....
TO EAT FOOD SACRIFICED TO IDOLS NUMBERS CH 22,23,24,25
2 peter 2;15 Jude 11 They have left the straight way and wandered off ..taken the way of Cain[kill his brother] they have rushed for profit[rushed
judgement/cursed man who God has blessed for wages of sin/mammon] into Balaam's error;
..I never thought of it that way before.. :Chinscratch: very interesting :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on April 16, 2015, 06:29:29 AM
Thanks to you all. :HeartThrob: I feel like I didn't say enough but I was pressed for time. I am sure you all can add a great deal more than I have. :dsunny:
CHB
I especially liked your #'s 8, 17 and 24 :smile:
Quote from: lastpost on April 16, 2015, 01:00:34 AM
Many may doubt, but implanted in man is something which responds to the Person of Jesus and knowledge of Him.
The Spirit can achieve what the letter cannot.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana:
FIRST FOUR
1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).
Christian biblical universalists believe that "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."(Phil 2:9,10)
Repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ is the only way into the kingdom of God. Jesus said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me"(John 12:32), and He meant it, just as He said it. I also believe Paul, "As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive"(1 Cor 15:22), along with John, "And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."(1 Jn 2:2)
Eventually all will bow before Him, some in this life, some at the Great White Throne, some after passing through judgment.
2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).
Not all are interested in the water of life, but the gospel of billions burning in "hell" forever is not living water. It is water tainted with death. Even so, no matter how pure the water, many will resist the will of God, and will until they are convicted in His presence of His goodness and His love. They will be dealt with by the majesty of God, who is a consuming fire, and eventually bow their knee to Him. They will, in that fire, become thirsty, "Let everyone who thirsts drink freely of the water of life." One of the last verses in John's revelation is this,
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
The message of the gospel is "Come, drink freely of the water of life", not "Burn forever in the lake of fire." Believers will carry that living water into the ages to come.(Eph 2:7)
3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).
There WILL be a judgment. The question is, will the penalty given to the unrepentant sinner at the Great White Throne be one of eternal torment in the second death? Paul doesnt think so.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be ALL IN ALL. 1 Cor 15:22-28
According to these verses, which you rarely hear taught on because they are not understood or convenient to those who preach eternal torment- death will be abolished. If death is abolished, how will "hell"(the lake of fire) last forever? If every adversary is subjected to Jesus' Lordship, and the result is that, as Paul says in verse 28, God will become "all in all"- how can the judgment last forever?
Paul told the Colossians this, For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (Col. 1:19,20)
In Phil 2:9,10 9 Paul states, "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
All will be subjected, some passing through judgment- but all will finally be reconciled.
4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
Jesus also said that hypocritical believers who did not minister to the needy would go into that fire (Matthew 25:31-46)
Paul said,
"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
The only true foundation is Jesus, and His love expressed practically in our lives.
1 Cor 3:11-15 says that some, who built poorly on the foundation, will be saved "as through fire", but they will suffer the loss of their works.
Paul believes people can be saved "as through fire".
Our God "is a consuming fire"(Heb 12:29). Jesus said, "Everyman will be salted with fire"(Mark 9:49). Jesus' eyes are "as flames of fire" and His face like "the sun shining in its strength"(Rev 1:14-16).
The lake of fire is the second death. After all the adversaries are subjected, death will be abolished and God will be all in all. The lake of fire is for exposure, as light is fire to darkness and our God is a consuming fire.... all darkness and death will come to an end when God is all in all. Subjection is yielding to the God, bowing and confessing His Lordship, and reconciliation. Subjection to the love of God by all makes God ALL IN ALL.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God. 1 Cor 4:5,6
`
"..and all flesh shall see the salvation of God."
Luke 3:6, Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Will see it from `hell`? Not only is God powerless to save 2/3 of humanity (and 1/3 angels) from eternal doom and torture, but they will be able to witness the peace and joy of His perfect kingdom before and, or during that never ending doom and torture?
----
P.S - awesome post EW! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:
I simply, and I mean simply, cannot understand how anyone believing in a "hell that lasts..eternally, forever, everlasting " how that person can understand the situation as they espouse and can see that out come after reading...
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Jesus The Lord and Savior said...Rev 21:6 and He said to me, `It hath been done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End; I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;
"Done" G1096 A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be
I AM THAT I AM H1961 to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass
BDB Definition: 1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen,
"I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;"
Let me say that those who go through the lake of fire[those not in the first resurrection Rev. 20:5&6]
will be down right thirsty and will be given freely to drink, by Jesus the Savior, the water of life they found no reason to accept while in their sins.
:thumbsup: mICAH......Also,what is left out of such reasoning are the scriptures..no man can come unto me unless He is drawn
each in his order.....and God's sovereignty of making from the same lump..one vessel for common purpose..and one for honour..
I shall harden.......or I shall have mercy on whomever I have mercy. This being in the Divine plan of God in this exercise of
good and evil..that such things[contrast] be exhibited and openly displayed.....
also, God has kept many things hidden...and reveals them in His time.......when every hidden thing shall be revealed.....
5-8
5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).
The destruction that comes upon the lost is the ruin of living under the mastery of sin, not eternal torment in "hell". The judgment to come will also be a consequence of the "wide road", but it is not eternal torment. Was Jesus just being naive and enthusiastic when He said, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"?
Jesus speaks from the throne, where He has been exalted by the Father to "fill all things"(Eph 4:10) and to Whom all will be subjected(1 Cor 15:22-28), about His plan,
And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end." Rev 21:5,6
Jesus said all things, He meant all things, and Paul understood that that was exactly what He meant and wrote about it in many of his epistles.(Romans 8, Eph 1, Col 1, Phil 2, 1 Cor 15, 2 Tim 2)
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
The lawless ones who will "Depart from Him", all knew His name, called Him Lord, and did works and taught in His name. They were guilty of not having practical love- showing they did not understand His ways. In 1 Cor 3:12-15 Paul said works of wood, hay and stubble would be burnt up, but the person would be saved "as through fire". He said every persons works would be tested by fire, "Because the Day will reveal it". When Jesus is revealed and all the veils are torn away, His face, like the "sun shining in its strength" will be the Day, before which everyones works will be tested by the "eyes as flames of fire". Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire".
6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).
Jesus also said,"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."(Mark 3:11,12)
Every seed of wheat has chaff. The chaff does not represent the "evil ones". It is what is left over after the seeds of wheat are beaten on the threshing floor to get the chaff off them. Then the chaff is blown off the grain, and the grain is kept and the chaff is burned, with unquenchable fire. The fire will burn on you, me, and everyone who ever lived until all the chaff(waste, coating of the seed, as in "the flesh") in each one is consumed. Even those who are saved will be "tested by fire because the Day will reveal it".
Again, Jesus said every person would be salted with fire. Jesus was talking to religious people in those verses, and speaking to them about works motivated by true love versus religious works. Hypocrites will be saved, "yet so as through fire". In fact, everyone will be salted with fire. On the Day of judgment those who have been reconciled through faith in Christ will enter the joy of their Lord, reconciled by His blood, done with fire. The rest will be purged by the light of His presence, which is fire to darkness. Jesus said,
For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. Luke 8:17
Paul said
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God. 1 Cor 4:5,6
In Rev. chapter 1, His eyes are as flames of fire and the writer of Hebrews says,
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.(Heb 4:12,13)
The word of God divides the confusion and the delusions in each person, and reveals the secrets of their hearts. Even after salvation that sword keeps dividing. Jesus says, "I am He that tries the reins and the hearts". All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do, and He will try the righteous, to purify their faith(Peter), and He will bring the wicked to repentance in judgment. But His end purpose for all is plainly stated in His own words, "Behold, I am making all things new", and, "If I am lifted up I will draw all men unto me."
7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).
God does judge sin. Trusting in Christ delivers believers from the penalty of that judgment, and births righteousness. Those who reject Him will suffer judgment, but it will not be eternal torment in hell, because the second death will end when the last knee bows, when the last adverary is subjected(Phil 2:9-11, 1 Cor 15:22-28)
The bible also says, in Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.(Col 1)
No one earned their salvation. We were reconciled by grace, chosen and elect as the first fruits, "That we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory." (Eph 1:12)
James 1:18 says,
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Paul says in Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
We, as first fruits are being prepared for a purpose to be revealed in the ages to come (Eph 2:7). Did anyone really think we would just sit around and listen to screaming tormented, living corpses for the ages to come after the resurrection of the saints at the second coming?
In Romans 11:32-36
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Judgment is sure, but the penalties do not last forever/ Paul says death will be destroyed(anulled, nullified, done away with), and God will be all in all.
In Colossians 1 Paul says that all will be reconciled by the blood of His cross, and he defines "all" very carefully.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).
Those who do not believe are perishing. They are living in Adam, under the sway and devastation of sin and death. Those who believe in Jesus are set free from sin and death and the judgment to come. Regarding the rest,the question is, "Will God torment billions in hell forever".
How can that be called victory? If the second death lasts forever, how then is death destroyed? How does God become all in all? Is this doctrine of billions burning forever really the end point of God's plan?
In Eph 1:9-12 Paul states that there is a different end to God's plan.
He made known to us the mystery of His will,according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Our inheritance, as children of God is written in Romans 8:18-21
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Administration, or dispensation of the fulness of timesmeans that God's plan is distributed over "the fulness of times", fulness being the completion of time in ages and generations. God's plan is not complete until time is complete. According to Paul the complete plan involves "the summing up of all things in Christ, whether things in heaven or on earth". The King Jame saysit like this, "the gathering together into one of all things in Christ, whether in heaven or on earth". This is written by the same Paul who taught the Corinthians that God would be ALL IN ALL, who taught the Colossians that God would "reconcile all things, whether in heaven or in earth". These verses are not taught because they are not convenient, and because the teachers have not seen "the mystery".
Paul says further in verse 12 that God "causes all things to work according to the counsel of His desire".
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.Eph 2:4-7
Paul says that we will be blessed by God in "ages to come". What are these ages? What will we be doing during them? Watching people burning? Or continuing to reconcile men unto God? Whatever our destiny in ages to come, it will be glorious.
Continuing to teach this to the Ephesians Paul says in Ephesians 4:10,
"He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things."
Just as Paul began instructing the Ephesians in "the mystery" of the "gathering together into one of all things in Christ" in Chapter one, he states again in Ephesians 4:10- Christ will fill all things.
In 1 Cor 15:28 Paul says that after all things are subjected to Christ, He will return all things to the Father, including His all of His subjected adversaries, and God will be ALL IN ALL.
How can Jesus fill all things; how can all things in heaven and in earth be summed up in Him, How can God become ALL IN ALL if billions are burning forever?
This is a wonderful thread :angel5: very uplifting
:icon_flower:
Preach it,Brother!
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
:flamebreath:
amen! ...
Wish I was a speed reader, but alas I am slow reader and a slow comprehender as well so......I wait. :dsunny:
Well I will say with humility our posts deflated Bro. Shibley's paper if nothing else he would have to write another paper to show how the scriptures that were posted do not show a gospel of truth. I reread several responses for 12, 14, 20 and I just became happy. And one verse that was brought up several times for me is an absolute, and to deny it's authority is to say the Savior lied(never)........
Joh 12:32 And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 17, 2015, 06:24:42 PM
Well I will say with humility our posts deflated Bro. Shibley's paper if nothing else he would have to write another paper to show how the scriptures that were posted do not show a gospel of truth. I reread several responses for 12, 14, 20 and I just became happy. And one verse that was brought up several times for me is an absolute, and to deny it's authority is to say the Savior lied(never)........
Joh 12:32 And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."
Yep! :banana: And any number of verses, which even standing alone, very much support God's perfection and all powerfulness..
And especially :iagree:
Joh 12:32 And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me." :iagree: :iagree:
I had something I wanted to add to this thread, was thinking of earlier.. hmmm.. oh yes! Luke 6:36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." Do we realize just how many millions of ppl have never heard of Jesus? Of which they
cannot be saved, reconciled, rehabilitated/born again, without believing in Him!! Like our loving, merciful, all wise, all knowing, all loving, heavenly Father would simply condemn them out of hand.
Really???The whoLe thing is so illogical, it simply
blows the mind..!
Yes and to add....2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not tardy as to the promise, as some are deeming tardiness, but is patient because of you, not intending any to perish, but all to make room for repentance."
Yeah as they use to say in the pentecoste of the 80's AIN'T GOD GOOD! :dsunny:
:banana:
Isaaih 28;14- Therefore,hear the word of the Lord ye scoffers...which rule these people in Jerusalem. Ye boast..'we have entered into a
covenant with death[ministry of death] with HELL have we made an agreement. When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by
it can not touch us, for we have made a lie our refuge..and falsehood our hiding place..
SEE I LAY A STONE IN ZION A TESTED STONE A PRECIOUS CORNERSTONE FOR A SURE FOUNDATION..THE ONE WHO TRUSTS
WILL NEVER BE DISMAYED I WILL MAKE JUSTICE THE MEASURING LINE AND RIGHTEOUSNESS THE PLUMB LINE;
HAIL WILL SWEEP AWAY YOUR REFUGE OF A LIE...AND WATER WILL OVERFLOW YOUR HIDING PLACE
YOUR COVENANT WITH DEATH WILL BE ANULLED..AND YOUR AGREEMENT WITH HELL WILL NOT STAND
WHEN THE OVERWHELMING SCOURGE[JESUS MADE A SCOURGE AND OVERTURNED THE TABLES IN THE TEMPLE/GOD
SCOURGES EVERY SON HE RECEIVES TO HIMSELF] SWEEPS BY YOU WILL BE BEATEN DOWN BY IT......
THE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS MESSAGE WILL BRING SHEER TERROR
Love this thread. So many good responses from all you faithful in tentmaker.
I have copied and pasted the response of CHB and Marie into the original document.
I will add more of your very good comments as well as those of EW and mine when when I finish this.
Please see attached. Excuse any errors. The response could be an important STATEMENT about UR.
May be too late but does it matter?
[attachment deleted by admin]
It's a shame this guy "provides training and resources for thousands of pastors" because he's robbing people of the joy of knowing the overwhelming power of God's love and replacing it with irrational fear of a lie that comes straight from Satan through the Roman Catholic Church into his King James Protestant Church and makes people crazy and confused about a god who wants to torture people in fire forever who never even heard of Jesus Christ or who were incapable of understanding the evangel especially in the distorted form he portrays it. He's neglecting to tell you that his "hell" is based on forgery perpetrated in his beloved King James by intentionally mistranslating "Gehenna" as "hell" thereby causing the deception that "hades," the unseen state of dead souls, is a torture chamber that will last forever somehow causing people to burn continuously without being consumed. He is also confusing "the lake of fire" with "hell" which his own King James says is cast into "the lake of fire" which is actually "the second death" which will be abolished at the consummation of the eons. Because he is relying on the inaccurate translation of the King James for the Greek "aion," literally "eon," he is completely confusing people with his interpretation of scripture by making people think periods of time are "eternal." He is ignoring scripture about faith being a gracious gift of God that we don't earn by anything we do. He is ignoring scripture about death being the result of sin, not torture in fire forever. He is ignoring scripture about all mankind dying because of Adam and all mankind being made alive because of Christ. All he's doing is pushing the old Roman case for heresy against what the inspired written word of God says is what brings about the ultimate plan of God which is all on earth and in the heavens being reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all. His preaching is nothing but the systematized deception of orthodox theology established for the political expediency of the Roman Empire. He and his Protestant buddies should be ashamed for not purging the nonsense during The Reformation instead of self-righteously condemning the majority of mankind to a fate that God does not have planned even for the worst of human sinners or even Satan himself who is the author of this evil lie called "hell." We have to have compassion for him even though he's making people crazy by spewing forth this nonsense out of ignorance. The first thing he needs to do is retire his King James, and get an accurate translation. Then he needs to stop talking, and start listening to what the word of God accurately translated has to say. Maybe that will help the scales fall from his eyes, but I doubt it will happen because most guys like him are locked into their programming. They're afraid to open their minds and see the truth. It's especially distressing that our worse persecution seems to come from fellow believers like this rather than even the atheists. They don't believe in "hell." So they don't condemn us. They just think we're fools, but we have to have compassion for them too because God has blinded them temporarily. Only some have been chosen to have faith from before the disruption of the world, but all will eventually be saved. That's what scripture actually says, and this guy should be able to see that if he was reading an accurate translation of the ancient manuscripts. But I think he clings to his King James like he clings to his self-righteous theology of saving himself by his own so called free will while he's all right with his god torturing most of mankind in fire forever. His god is not my God. His god is a fiend worse than Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot. His god is an impotent weakling who can't even overcome the free will of his own creatures. His so called gospel is no good news at all for billions of people who need to know God's love and are being deprived of it because of his distorted evangel. God will have mercy on him and his followers though because it's all according to God's will that Satan's counterfeit church be seen for exactly what it is. Just don't let preachers like this discourage you. Pity them, and speak the truth of the word of God to counter the lie of Satan that they are preaching ignorantly. It's our responsibility to study an accurate translation of the inspired written word of God so we can share the truth with all the people who are deceived by this popular lie of Satan called "hell" that dishonors the true living God who loves all his creatures and will reconcile all his creatures through Christ's blood on the cross. Let the church call it heresy. Who cares? Let them tell us we're going to "hell" for believing God. Let them continue to spew forth their wretched disgusting lie of "hell," and see their churches continue to empty while people are coming to know the truth that God is the savior of all mankind especially believers. It's only a matter of time before all will know the truth, and all will be filled with love, not fear, because God will be all in all.
Wow Tom,
You sure said a lot and a good encapsulation of what is going on here on earth. :thumbsup:
I had to edit it Joe because I forgot something important.
Something I learned years ago from reading Charles Fort's four books (no, he's NOT a Christian author) is that a theory must account for ALL the data, not just most or some.
Now in the case of Hell, it seems to me that the Reconciliation theory explains the data [Biblical text] better than the Damnation theory. Or, in other words, no Hell beats and trumps Hell.
I believe we need to consider the worldly wisdom preaching is foolishness to God , and does not really know God or His eternal will /desire ,
but allows this to continue in His wisdom .
1Corth 1 for the benefit of some and to the fall of others .
Some do save by fear , its in the letter of Jude.
I t is impossible to understand exactly why we see some saved though fear and others by compassion.
God in His Wisdom and plan works everything according to His own will and desires.
Knowing God and His power is the Light and those in darkness and preach in darkness are as blind men leading the blind
Being in the ditch is an experience many are not willing to go though again , as I am one of them .Looking to Jesus only, now .
But God in His wisdom is able to many anyone ''stand '' if He so desires it .
:2c:
Philippians 3:21 (Concordant Version) - "Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself."
...no mention there of another's ('free') will able to contradict that..
"denying the Lord" closer translation is "contradicting the Lord".. Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1
and 2 Timothy 3:5 - "holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power" - I think the gospel as preached (by ET or EA) very much contradicts/denies the POWER of GOD! :faint:
robbing the people IS ROBBING GOD OF HIS GLORY. IT IS GOD BEING ROBBED!!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on April 21, 2015, 06:21:10 AM
Something I learned years ago from reading Charles Fort's four books (no, he's NOT a Christian author) is that a theory must account for ALL the data, not just most or some.
Now in the case of Hell, it seems to me that the Reconciliation theory explains the data [Biblical text] better than the Damnation theory. Or, in other words, no Hell beats and trumps Hell.
:thumbsup:
Dear ones,
I think most of the points are elaborately refuted on the Tentmaker's, these mostly have to do with a misunderstanding of words like eternal, hell, judgment etc. Yet I think some points have to do with certain movements called Universalism, which are different from what we understand as being the Victorious Gospel.
Pt 12 The idea that universalism teaches that all ways lead to God, probably comes from teachers like Bishop Carlton Pearson. From his website I get the idea he believes there is no judgment at all, and as I see symbols of all major religions, I think he believes all religions lead to God (?) Probably people think that this is what Universalism teaches.
Pt 22 This point might have to do with Unitarian Universalism, which is very liberal. I think most christians do not know very much about Universalism, so they think all Universalists are Unitarians. When God by His Spirit graciously convinced my heart of His victorious plan to save all mankind, my mind was doubting it. As I was searching the internet to find the convictions of my heart confirmed by the Scriptures, I initially found universalist websites that made me doubt even more. This was because of their very liberal teachings, among others portraying God as (as brother Eby states it) a 'syrupy sweet' Love: no judgment, no dealing with sin - on the contrary, being very easy on sin. (I believe God is strongly AGAINST sin, but not against sinners! That's the reason He saves us from it)
I can understand very well that sincere christians who are open to universalism, are repelled from it by finding these kind of teachings. (I am extremely thankful I found Tentmaker!)
Pt 23 I think one very common misconception is, what is salvation all about. For most christians, salvation means being saved from hell, so it's related to the future/afterlife. In the Bible, as far as I know, salvation is never linked to hell (or Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, eternal punishment, eternal death...)
Salvation is from sin. So the whole point is, preaching the gospel is not to prevent people from going to hell. It's about getting them freed of the horrible power of sin (which, btw, is God's work, but we might be honored to be His messagers)
I found the articles 'The Judgment of the World by the Cross' on Seth's website mercifultruth.com very helpfull on this point.
:2c:
Here is my late response to David Shibley 24 points against UR:
1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).
God commands ALL men to repent and all will repent on God's schedule some now, all others later. EVERY knee shall bow. Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:. Those who do not repent in this age, will perish. Can a person perish and still be saved? The word "perish" is the Greek word "apollumi" which is translated as either DESTROYED, PERISHED, AND LOST depending on what the translators thought fit. They were inconsistent in their translation. So whether one is destroyed, perished, or lost, it matters not to Jesus—HE SAVES THEM ALL. (Mat 18:11) For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST (apollumi). Many other scriptures tell us this same thing.
2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).
For anyone to say that the water if life will be offered to all, but that some will reject it and not desire it, is belief in Arminianism theology. It implies that mans will is stronger than God's will. That is false. (1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).
That is true about judgement. Problem is that some interpret judgement as condemnation or being found guilty. Most Christians have a one-sided and often evil concept of judgment. They think of it primarily as a negative and horrible thing that wicked people must go through before being sentenced to hell fire. Judgment is not reserved exclusively for the wicked, nor is it a one-sided sentence of doom. Judgment has both a positive and a negative side. But God's judgement is righteous and ultimately leads to salvation. God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32). It means to - chasten, instruct, teach, Strong's" Greek: 'paideuo' #3811. The book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL.
4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
Whether converted or not, all experience judgment for sinning. All have sinned. You reap what sow you. Judgment and the second death are two separate events. There is a White Throne Judgment at the consummation for those who were not converted. That judgment results in cleansing all rest of mankind from their sins and giving them immortality. Then death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death Rev. 20:14).
5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).
Absolutely wrong. Christian Universalists DO believe there is a broad path that leads to destruction (Greek word "apollumi" which is translated as either DESTROYED, PERISHED, AND LOST as described in response #1). This most certainly does not mean being cast into an ever burning hell fire. Their salvation comes later in the White Throne judgment period. And yes, there are those who work iniquity, but their judgment, chastisement and salvation will also occur in a later age.
6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).
Sure there has been and will be a time of wailing and gnashing of teeth for those who are not among the called and chosen in this age. When one comes to understand that we are living in a day of salvation now and that there is a later day of salvation for all the rest of mankind, one will begin to see the beautiful truth of the salvation of all.
7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).
Absolutely and how wonderful is the victorious gospel.
8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).
Yes John 3:16 is a most loving verse. Whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'. The scriptural truth is that non will perish eternally, but all will believe and be saved. Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ALL humans will be drawn in loving submission to Christ. Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. All will profess and worship God in loving adoration. There is just no denying the truth of these verses.
9. Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
This might seem like a real clincher for David Shibley, the writer of this piece. But it is in error.
1. there is no unending eternal judgment as has already been proven in earlier responses.
2 There is not one who will not respond to the victorious gospel of Jesus, in God's appointed time. Jesus is the saviour of the world, not just some of the world.
3 Yes God does take vengeance on those who do not in their life time know God. But that vengeance is a temporary condition. Its all Gods working all things after the council of His own will.
Everlasting destruction is not an accurate rendering. No such word as everlasting in the Greek, it should be eonian. age-abiding or age-lasting. It is a temporary situation.
10. Jesus emphatically taught that a spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).
Yes, and everyone will be born again, in their own order.
11. In answer to a very clear question about what is necessary for salvation, Paul gave a very clear answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts. 16:31).
Yes, it is necessary to believe in the Lord to be saved. Some believe and will be saved in this age, all others will believe later. There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved. Every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess to God. Every man in his own order. Christ the firstfruits, then they that are Christ's at his coming, and finally all others at the consummation..
12. Jesus gave no indication that many roads lead to God. He forcefully stated that He was the only way. "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14:6).
Absolutely true.. There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved.
13. The early preachers of the church clearly preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12; see also 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).
Absolutely true.. There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved.
14. According to Scripture, only those who receive Jesus Christ and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).
Absolutely true but God isn't calling everyone today.
15. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; see also 10:9).
Once again, not everyone will believe at this time nor is God calling everyone at this time. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
16. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgment. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3:18).
Those who believe in UR do not teach that those without faith in Christ are already saved? To make that claim is false. Even those with faith in Christ are not already saved, but are in the process of being saved. Even Paul admitted that he could be rejected (1 Cor. 9:27). And there is nothing in John 3:18 which says, there is no chance for rehabilitation/repentance beyond this age in which we live. To assume that someone in this age of grace is condemned forever because of unbelief is a gross misunderstanding. Being "condemned" is not a sentence to the "fires of hell". An unbeliever's condemnation is a temporary condition. After all you can read that our own Lord was "condemned?" (Matt. 20:18).
17. Only those "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15; see also 21:27).
The assumption made is that ONLY those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are granted access into the eternal city of God. It is true that those who are in Christ at His coming are written in the book of life, but does that exclude those who have not yet been written in the book or saved, remembering that Jesus is the Saviour of the whole world. Can even Moses be saved? Moses asked God to forgive others. His humble attitude enabled him to say blot me out of your book (of life) Ex. 32:32. .But Moses will be in the Kingdom, I doubt any one can deny that. Only those who need purification by fire and chastisement will go through the Lake of Fire (God is a consuming fire - Heb 12:29) to bring them to God and salvation. Rev. 21:27 tells us that at the end all will be written in the Book of Life. The salvation of all.
18. People are not automatically righteous. Only when we declare faith in Jesus Christ does God declare us righteous in His sight. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
That's true. People are not automatically righteous. You become righteous by faith and that only comes when God draws (drags) you to Him (John 6:44). You do not come to Him of your own free will or desire. (Rom. 4:16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed.
19. Eternal life comes only through a relationship with God. We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son. "'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'" (John 17:3).
Very true. John chapters 13 to 17 record for us the words Jesus spoke to His disciples at the "last supper". He revealed to them the relationship the Elect (His disciples) have with Him. In verse 3 of Chapter 17 He tells them that eonian (eternal) life comes by knowing the Father, who sent Him (Christ). Christ being the first of the firstfruits, and others following being firstfruits - the Elect (Pentecost).
20. The cross of Christ is where payment for our sins was made. Only when we believe this are we saved. "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [on a cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life'" (John 3:14-15).
Christ died for our sins and not only ours. He died for the sin of the world (John 1:29), including all of mankind. By His death we were reconciled to God. But we shall be saved, not by His death, but by His LIFE ( Rom. 5:10).
21. Only those who have the Son of God have eternal life. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).
In addition to these verses, the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 provides hard evidence against Universalism. Cornelius was devout, prayed often, gave generously to the poor and even received an angelic visitation. Yet God went to great lengths to get the gospel to him so he could come to know Jesus and be saved.
It is a sad commentary that so many orthodox Christians believe that universalism is to be discredited, some even calling it heresy. Either Jesus Christ is the saviour of the whole world or He is not. No, universalism is not the gospel. A knowledge of the "salvation of all" is not the only truth leading to salvation. Belief in, adherence to, and a love for, universalism will not save anyone. But God will.
22. Added to the avalanche of scriptural evidence, there are also practical reasons for rejecting Universalism. History teaches that acceding to Universalism sets the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. Soon all confidence in Scripture is lost and the uniqueness of the Christian gospel evaporates.
In no way does belief in the salvation of all set the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. No one has documented that as fact. The truth is that there are 3 opinions on how God is working out His plan of salvation when you read the Bible.. Some people believe in eternal torment! It seems to be clearly taught in the Bible many believe. And, also, the doctrine of extermination is seemingly also "in the Bible,". People have read it there too. Also, while apparently not quite so clearly, the Bible also teaches the ultimate salvation of all men. Only one of these is correct. Indeed those who believe in the doctrine of Eternal Torment have a strong case when reading our popular Bible versions. But their false beliefs can be recognized by studying the Greek words in respected lexicons like Strong/Thayer. Otherwise it just becomes a yes/no fight. Without proof everybody is right
23. If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent.
Where do we find specific examples of what happens to evangelism when the "salvation of all" is preached? How can one say that a Universalist sees no urgency to proclaim the victorious gospel of Jesus Christ? They are just as fervent and zealous as any energized Christian.
24. If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ.
It is a good thing for all of us of all Christian denominations to preach that Christ died for our sins and it is only through Him we will be saved. Even Paul rejoiced when he heard others preaching Christ, albeit for ulterior motives. (Philippians 1:18). So lets rejoice. I truly think no one can believe in the "salvation of all" until God opens their eyes. You can explain all the mistranslations, misunderstandings and misinterpretations and clear verses that teach this truth until you are blue in the face, but none of that will matter if they aren't able to see it. And the only One that can make them see is God.
CHB and joeteekay! :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :trampoline: The Lord IS Good!
:IloveU: all
Because I love the Lord GOD and see his beauty and love working in all :HeartThrob:
:goodpost: everyone !!! love wins Joe !!!
also recall that the disciples were upset over someone casting out demons in Jesus name and were not following with them. and we have
Jesus reply unto His disciples.
Isaachar is a large boned ass lying between two burdens..the ass has to be redeemed with a lamb...and the Lord has use of them.
I dont thik the doctorine of NEVER ENDING CONSCIOUS HELL stops tyrants from being tyrants
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ae_1431380709
It mostly pushes people away from GOD as they view him as either unfair of purely imaginary. They simply reject god on there OWN moral grounds. This doctorine does not help to spread the Gospel of Jesus christ. It just creates fear and confusion
http://atheistimpact.podbean.com
I think the common misconception of "hell" distorts the worldview of all who believe it because it is based on fear not love. So that affects how they live their lives and how they interact with all their fellow human beings not to mention how they perceive God. God exercises judgment, but judgment doesn't always involve condemnation. And the result of condemnation is only temporary because God is love, God has the power to make the dead alive as evidenced by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and God is the savior of all mankind.
Quote from: JonesHenry on May 12, 2015, 02:28:10 AM
I dont thik the doctorine of NEVER ENDING CONSCIOUS HELL stops tyrants from being tyrants
:laughing7: haha! i have to agree with that!
Quote from: JonesHenry on May 12, 2015, 02:28:10 AM
It mostly pushes people away from GOD as they view him as either unfair of purely imaginary. They simply reject god on there OWN moral grounds. This doctorine does not help to spread the Gospel of Jesus christ. It just creates fear and confusion
:iagree: :iagree: totally! It makes the gospel unbelievable ("imaginery") and yes, now ppl judge God because of it.. and reject Him.. And some come to hate Him (the sin which
when having, is unable to be forgiven) And certainly does not help to spread the gospel!
The doctrine of eternal torment makes God a tyrant, why should it discourage tyrants? :laugh:
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18
Quote from: Dandelion on May 16, 2015, 06:01:43 PM
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18
I view fear as torment ( not physical but mental, of the heart) a process of growing into deeper understanding of Him. I see punishment as loving chastisement from God for our good.
You guys are doing a great job. This article is written in ignorance of our beliefs confusing Christian Universalism with Unitarian Universalism. This article with these responses can be a great tool for spreading the Truth, God willing. :dsunny:
Quote from: joeteekay on May 28, 2015, 02:00:30 AM
Quote from: Dandelion on May 16, 2015, 06:01:43 PM
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18
I view fear as torment ( not physical but mental, of the heart) a process of growing into deeper understanding of Him. I see punishment as loving chastisement from God for our good.
I am not disagreeing with anything said above, but I am raising a point. Punishment is unpleasant. Sometimes extremely so. God is gracious, slow to anger, and quick to forgive- but perhaps even because of all that, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
All punishment is in the moment unpleasant but in the end it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness.
There is an easy way and a hard way and the easy way is better, for sure. God's loving chastisement is no less painful because it is motivated by love, because some times love is hard, tough, direct.
There is still a consequence of persistent willful disobedience and predatory wickedness, and whatever it is- and for all the love behind it, and for all it will get a holy result, it will be a fearful thing.
Why does punishment have to be unpleasant? Couldn't God punish us without it being unpleasant .
Quote from: Aerex on June 08, 2015, 08:30:30 PM
Why does punishment have to be unpleasant? Couldn't God punish us without it being unpleasant .
If it were pleasant, it wouldn't be punishment, would it?
I think one thing that must be understood is that God is not like our earthly father's. He does not punish or chastise on whimsy, mood, or arbitrary authority issues. God's fatherly discipline is always after many appeals and instructions, primarily to prevent our destroying ourselves or others, and for the purpose of teaching us how to stay in a love walk with Jesus, because that is what righteousness is,
"Take my yoke upon you for I am meek and lowly of hear and you will find rest for your souls."
And God's fatherly discipline always yields the peacable fruit of righteousness.
The only pleasant way to be corrected is to listen to the instruction of Wisdom and apply oneself to walking in it :o)
Here are my responses to several points in the article:
"Some false teachers today would like us to think that everybody will eventually get to heaven. Don't believe them."
I do not see Ultimate Reconciliation as everybody "eventually getting to Heaven." I believe that Heaven (as it exists during this age and the ages to come), is something that not everybody will experience. Rev. 21-22 describes the New Heavens and New Earth as lasting for the eons, but there are still people outside experiencing the Second Death. However, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28, Paul describes how, eventually, God will be "all in all" with death abolished and all made alive in Christ. Since death is the wages of sin (Rom. 6:23), if death is abolished, that means the sinfulness in humanity has also been abolished, so what is there to keep all humanity from experiencing reconciliation with God?
"Personal repentance and faith in Christ are not necessary for going to heaven. The Christian mission is reduced to announcing to people the 'good news' that they are already saved."
The sinful nature of humanity must be destroyed in order for people to be saved. For those who trust in Christ in this life, one's death to the sinful nature is a much less painful process than what will be experienced by those who die unsaved; this is the motivation for repentance. As for people being "already saved," on one hand, God calls things that are not as though they were (Rom. 4:17), and He has declared the justification of all humanity through the finished work of Christ (Rom. 5:18-19). However, salvation is not a manifested reality for all people today, as many Scriptures make clear.
"The 'water of life' is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. 'Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely' (Rev. 22:17)."
Paul wrote that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy" (Rom. 9:16). Salvation is not a matter of exercising our wills to receive something. Rather, God calls people into the faith and then they are justified (Rom. 8:30). God is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2). God works all things according to the council of His will (Eph. 1:11), and it is His will for everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4-6).
"Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. 'The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power' (2 Thess. 1:7-9)."
The Greek words translated "eternal", "everlasting," or "forever," do not have to mean an endless period of time. I recommend reading An Analytical Study of Words by Louis Abbott and All in All by A.E. Knoch for more information on this.
"If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent."
I do not know of any denomination that boldly teaches Universalism from a strictly Biblical standpoint. The more liberal denominations may downplay hell and loosen the requirements for salvation (possibily keeping a post-mortem door open), but I have not found a denomination that confidently asserts that Christ's death and resurrection has the redemptive power to actually draw all mankind back to God.
"If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ."
But what if the doctrine of eternal torment is turning many people away from Christ, who would have been saved in this life and spared from punishment of the eons had they heard the message of Ultimate Reconciliation?
Regarding the issue of needing a "broken heart," a broken heart may cause some people to evangelize. However, for other people, a broken heart leads to despair and depression, without providing the power needed to change one's life. Ultimately, it is God who works in believers to will and to work (Phil. 2:13). It is up to God to decide what state an individual's heart should be in to serve as a backdrop for His work in the person's life.
New International Version (NIV)
Hebrews 9:26
26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all" (time?) "at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."
It does not say "to do away with some sin.."
------------------------------
Hebrews 1:3
3 "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."
Again it does not say "purification for some sins".. some versions insert "our" sins.. certainly doesn't say "for the elect's sins" (only!)
..then "he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (KJ) does not sound like limited success
-------------------------------
"...you will die in your sins" why race ahead and assume SO much? that this means all hope is lost / eternal annihilation or eternal torment? It's merely assumption (and running ahead of the Word/Truth). All it can be proven, or logical, to be saying is they who "die in their sins" will find their selves rising (still) in their sins.
from Revelation 20:5,7,12-15
"5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended... 7 When the thousand years are over.. ..12 the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.. ..15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." ...Young's - "was cast to the lake of the fire"..
Bible verses are not always in order, especially in (world) prophecy, but I still can't help noticing verse 14 precedes verse 15
[Imo, anyone whose name (still) not found written in the book of life.. cast to the lake of fire-ageduring...]
Quote from: Lazarus Short on June 08, 2015, 08:47:42 PM
Quote from: Aerex on June 08, 2015, 08:30:30 PM
Why does punishment have to be unpleasant? Couldn't God punish us without it being unpleasant .
If it were pleasant, it wouldn't be punishment, would it?
But isn't God's punishment invariably constructive/ restorative, so fearing Him is the beginning of wisdom for those with ears to hear? So a humbling experience can be immensely valuable (rapturous even), when we're alive to God's work. It's not hard to imagine what it would be like to spend my life building my carnal power and material wealth just to find out post-mortem it was all dross and would have to go. That I had put my faith into passing things and believed in my own high net worth. I would only let go kicking and screaming, a-wailing and a-gnashing, because I'd be so hardened. Oh the truth burns. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself (Gal 6:3).
Isn't this unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment at the heart of the ET folk's error? Ultimately it seems they have substituted God for man's image, which is a monstrous strawman, but the good news is that it is all part of His plan to bring all to repentance.
Now I'd better get back to trying to remove the forest from my own eye.
Quote from: BenC on August 28, 2015, 05:53:05 PM
But isn't God's punishment invariably constructive/ restorative, so fearing Him is the beginning of wisdom for those with ears to hear? So a humbling experience can be immensely valuable (rapturous even), when we're alive to God's work.
Isn't this unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment at the heart of the ET folk's error? Ultimately it seems they have substituted God for man's image, which is a monstrous strawman, but the good news is that it is all part of His plan to bring all to repentance.
Yes, in the carnal realm, it is punishment, mean, hurtful, and unpleasant. In the spiritual realm, it is God saving our cookies. In my own case, I remember being on the cusp of a crucial decision - and then a hand I didn't see tapped me on the shoulder, and a voice I didn't hear with my ears said, "What do you think you're about to do?" Knowing who had spoken in such a way, I folded and didn't do it. My carnal self then had a long battle with my spiritual self, and months later, I found that I had been saved from a world of hurt. Praise the Hand and the Voice!
"...unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment..." Yes, that's all part of the mix, but I see it as more of the adoption of pagan world views, such as life after death, existence in an underworld, and vengeance on one's personal enemies. Didn't God tell us that His ways were above our ways? Yes He did, and that means that He deals with evil-doers in a different way than sinful men. Instead of tossing them into Hell, God refines them until they become non-evil-doers - amazing! That refinement applies to all us, Laz included. Now you know why there are no [insert list of evil-doers] in the Kingdom, not because they are in Hell, but because they are justified, sanctified, and glorified - that is to say, refined, even if they were kicking and screaming. Did Jesus really tell us to turn the other cheek, and yet has Dante, Milton, and Mary K. Baxter write of Him relegating sinners to Hell? God forbid!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 28, 2015, 08:44:52 PM
Quote from: BenC on August 28, 2015, 05:53:05 PM
But isn't God's punishment invariably constructive/ restorative, so fearing Him is the beginning of wisdom for those with ears to hear? So a humbling experience can be immensely valuable (rapturous even), when we're alive to God's work.
Isn't this unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment at the heart of the ET folk's error? Ultimately it seems they have substituted God for man's image, which is a monstrous strawman, but the good news is that it is all part of His plan to bring all to repentance.
Yes, in the carnal realm, it is punishment, mean, hurtful, and unpleasant. In the spiritual realm, it is God saving our cookies. In my own case, I remember being on the cusp of a crucial decision - and then a hand I didn't see tapped me on the shoulder, and a voice I didn't hear with my ears said, "What do you think you're about to do?" Knowing who had spoken in such a way, I folded and didn't do it. My carnal self then had a long battle with my spiritual self, and months later, I found that I had been saved from a world of hurt. Praise the Hand and the Voice!
"...unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment..." Yes, that's all part of the mix, but I see it as more of the adoption of pagan world views, such as life after death, existence in an underworld, and vengeance on one's personal enemies. Didn't God tell us that His ways were above our ways? Yes He did, and that means that He deals with evil-doers in a different way than sinful men. Instead of tossing them into Hell, God refines them until they become non-evil-doers - amazing! That refinement applies to all us, Laz included. Now you know why there are no [insert list of evil-doers] in the Kingdom, not because they are in Hell, but because they are justified, sanctified, and glorified - that is to say, refined, even if they were kicking and screaming. Did Jesus really tell us to turn the other cheek, and yet has Dante, Milton, and Mary K. Baxter write of Him relegating sinners to Hell? God forbid!
Yes, I feel we can safely say that God's fire is not the fire of the Catholic inquisitor's dungeon. Forgiveness is such a challenge when you're self-righteous. So many prefer to smoulder in resentment comforted by the belief that the talons of justice will smite their oppressors harder later. Do you think that even Paul was unable to forgive Alexander the Coppersmith in 2 Tim 4:14? (I always picture Alexander blowing raspberries and giving the slow clap when Paul rises to address the throng!)
Btw, dare I ask - is your avatar a giant serpent?
I have a natural antipathy towards politicians. jesus characterized them as snakes and foxes.
It was only to be expected that as soon as the 'church" became a political entity that lies and leverage of various kinds would proliferate in order to consolidate power, hide inequities and corruption and enable the wicked to flourish.
Hell, the clergy/laity divide, the Holy See, the selling of the forgiveness of sins, indulgences, etc.... all means of unrighteous control and dominion.
Quote from: BenC on August 29, 2015, 10:31:41 AM
Yes, I feel we can safely say that God's fire is not the fire of the Catholic inquisitor's dungeon. Forgiveness is such a challenge when you're self-righteous. So many prefer to smoulder in resentment comforted by the belief that the talons of justice will smite their oppressors harder later. Do you think that even Paul was unable to forgive Alexander the Coppersmith in 2 Tim 4:14? (I always picture Alexander blowing raspberries and giving the slow clap when Paul rises to address the throng!)
Btw, dare I ask - is your avatar a giant serpent?
I have had a few Alexander the Coppersmith's in my own life, and had trouble letting go of my unforgiveness - UNTIL I allowed myself to see myself as they must have. It was humbling, and only then was I able to feel forgiveness. Of course, they do not know, but was able to enter a sense of freedom, not fettered by my own attitude.
BTW, it's not a giant serpent, but Kosh Naranek, who spoke the quote under his picture. He's a wise but enigmatic alien on the TV show "Babylon 5."
Laz,
Thanks for letting us know about Kosh Naranek. I've been wondering for years what it was. The world all makes sense again! :cloud9:
Reasons Hell Is Not Real.. I'm thinking of just one right now, but I've been thinking it for quite a few days now..
It's this verse, how Jesus said to the pharisees "unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish". The potential is, imo, if there is no redemption and reconciliation - were it possible - the reuslt would be to perish.. not to live immortally in another state or form of 'life' in a torturous realm..
Seems the same as "the wages" result "of sin" (Greek "missing the mark") [imperfection as opposed to God's Perfection, Who is also Life, the life force, hence imperfection is the opposite of life] ..the result of missing the mark is death (nonlife, surely not immortality in a different, fiery state of living). :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 08, 2015, 07:06:42 PM
Quote from: joeteekay on May 28, 2015, 02:00:30 AM
Quote from: Dandelion on May 16, 2015, 06:01:43 PM
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18
I view fear as torment ( not physical but mental, of the heart) a process of growing into deeper understanding of Him. I see punishment as loving chastisement from God for our good.
I am not disagreeing with anything said above, but I am raising a point. Punishment is unpleasant. Sometimes extremely so. God is gracious, slow to anger, and quick to forgive- but perhaps even because of all that, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
All punishment is in the moment unpleasant but in the end it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness.
There is an easy way and a hard way and the easy way is better, for sure. God's loving chastisement is no less painful because it is motivated by love, because some times love is hard, tough, direct.
There is still a consequence of persistent willful disobedience and predatory wickedness, and whatever it is- and for all the love behind it, and for all it will get a holy result, it will be a fearful thing.
Looking at this again. It made me go back to the passage I took that quote from:
1John4: YLT
16 and we -- we have known and believed the love, that God hath in us; God is love, and he who is remaining in the love, in God he doth remain, and God in him.
17 In this made perfect hath been the love with us, that boldness we may have in the day of the judgment, because even as He is, we -- we also are in this world;
18 fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love;
19 we -- we love him, because He -- He first loved us;
Another translation: NLT
13 And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us. 14 Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 All who declare that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God. 16 We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love.
God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them. 17 And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.
18 Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear.
If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love. 19 We love each other because he loved us first.
I think what this is saying, is something like this: If we truly know God, we also know how much He loves us, and when he does chastise us, we also know that He does so out of His great love for us. And, when we realize that His correction is because of His love, we will not be afraid, but accept what we have to bear, because we know, whatever He does to correct us, is for our own good, and flows from His tremendous love.
So, that being said, I do agree with both of you. As I used to say to my children: When God knocks, you best open the door, because next time, He will knock louder.
Far be if from me, to say that I don't believe that God corrects us, and that sometimes, that correction can feel very unpleasant.
:Peace2:
D.
Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.
Quote from: Aerex on October 03, 2015, 04:24:57 PM
Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.
Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap.
God is not about punishing wrong for the sake of retribution. He allows our own ways to come upon us, so that we will learn the futility of our reasoning and embrace His wisdom.
He forgives and prevents the full weight of our foolishness from falling upon us even as we test Him continually in our arrogant disregard of His love for us, which He renews every day- waiting always for "light to shine out of darkness" and love to be born in us, and grow in us, and govern our actions and attitudes.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us ALL, and His corrections are delivered for the purpose of turning us from our wickerd ways and preserving us from the harshest consequences of them, but all along the way He extends mercy, and cries out with the voice of wisdom that has gone out over the whole earth, "Listen!"
Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2015, 07:02:09 PM
Quote from: Aerex on October 03, 2015, 04:24:57 PM
Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.
Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap.
God is not about punishing wrong for the sake of retribution. He allows our own ways to come upon us, so that we will learn the futility of our reasoning and embrace His wisdom.
He forgives and prevents the full weight of our foolishness from falling upon us even as we test Him continually in our arrogant disregard of His love for us, which He renews every day- waiting always for "light to shine out of darkness" and love to be born in us, and grow in us, and govern our actions and attitudes.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us ALL, and His corrections are delivered for the purpose of turning us from our wickerd ways and preserving us from the harshest consequences of them, but all along the way He extends mercy, and cries out with the voice of wisdom that has gone out over the whole earth, "Listen!"
Fair enough however I think it is more than preserving us from far more serious punishments. He clearly did not do this for Jesus. He did good and got awarded death. Also what about God stating that he cause all into disobedience so that he may have mercy to all? I don't think punishment is what causes people to turn away from his or her sin. It is the kindness of God. Generally, punishment is supposed to teach right?
This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. Genesis 6:9
Years ago, I was working in Christian schools as a Resource Room teacher. I used the story of Noah, as a first person essay for the students. At that point in time, this line captured me, and it has stayed with me since. Noah walked with God. What a beautiful image, and way of viewing what I believe our relationship should be with God. To walk with Him, each and everyday, all during the day.
If when I die, someone can say that at my eulogy, then I will have lived a wonderful life.
There is a point to this. When we walk with God, there are few surprises. We pray, we talk, He talks to us......he teaches us along the way. He takes us thru the winding road of life, with all its joys and perils and everything in between. It is all about teaching. Sometimes, we don't learn easily. But, I have found that the more we have God with us, the less the sting, because He is there with us. He is so many things to us.....our rock; our strength; our refuge; our joy; our healer; our Savior, and on and on. He allows whatever is needed to bring us closer to Him.....to be more like Him.
...27"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.... Matthew 11:28
What we give to Him, He will in some way, give us grace and strength to bear.
...9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:10
In our weakness, He is able to be given His Glory. And, that, as I often say, is why I believe we are here to begin with. To bring glory to our God.
I think often, we don't feel enough grace to get through things, because we just can't let go enough. Even the painful becomes familiar, and the guilt seems to fit sometimes. But, that is not what I believe He wants for us.
I have learned, when things happen, that are difficult, or I don't understand, to ask God, "What am I supposed to learn from this?" and often I add, let me learn it quickly....... :eek:
Anyway, my :2c:
I just want to add the disclaimer that I certainly don't have this all figured out. I will leave with one more quote by C.S. Lewis:
"Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world."
― C.S. Lewis
D.
It appears to me entirely certain, from scripture, that not all will be saved at Christ's second coming, that a selection will take place, a harvest, such as those deemed worthy will spend the next 1000 years growing and maturing in our Lord, while the rest will be food for the carrion birds, not necessarily hell, but hardly a happy enduing. However much one might like to believe in universal salvation. however many scriptural statements one might assemble which attest to all being saved, we still have to deal with a monumental body of evidence attesting to a selection taking place, actually very soon. So, if a case can be made for universal salvation, and I hope it can, I think one needs to concentrate attention on what transpires at the end of the millennium, the Gog and Magog battle, and the lake of fire; which is to say, what do these things mean and, if they might be understood to mean that all will be saved, how can such assertion be supported by scripture? I think scripture often does not make it clear which event or time-frame is being referenced, the first resurrection or the second.
Quote from: Horan on October 05, 2015, 08:55:01 PM
It appears to me entirely certain, from scripture, that not all will be saved at Christ's second coming, that a selection will take place, a harvest,
There are 3 harvest seasons in real life and in God's Plan.
I suspect there are more harvest seasons, or something akin, but if you want to defend a doctrine of universal reconciliation, in expository fashion for others, you need to demonstrate this with scripture, because there is so much scripture which points to an exclusive selection. I'm suggesting that there certainly is an exclusive selection at Christ's second coming, and that if we would like to assemble evidence for an all inclusive salvation, we need to look beyond this event and, indeed, Revelation indicates that there is something that might be examined, a second resurrection and yet another gathering for battle.
Is it perhaps interesting that Revelation doesn't make reference to an actual battle, but to a gathering for one, much as the same document presents that of God and Magog as yet another gathering? I personally don't believe that either of these, Armageddon or Gog and Magog is a real, literal, blood, guts and gunpowder battle, or even a gathering for such a literal thing, but that these are spiritual contests, for winning of the hearts and minds of people, for either Christ or His adversary.
So White Wings, your assertion of there being three harvests interests me. Would you care to elaborate?
Quote from: Aerex on October 03, 2015, 04:24:57 PM
Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.
I think of most of that as consequences.. or even more exactly as results.. Of our own doings.. So in a way it is our father's punishment, because He set it up that way, that actions, words, even thoughts, have consequences or results. Not that He's not involved in the process. And perhaps chastening is a blend of both, the natural law of sin and death and the Lord's chastening.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 04, 2015, 07:02:09 PM
Quote from: Aerex on October 03, 2015, 04:24:57 PM
Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.
Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap.
God is not about punishing wrong for the sake of retribution. He allows our own ways to come upon us, so that we will learn the futility of our reasoning and embrace His wisdom.
He forgives and prevents the full weight of our foolishness from falling upon us even as we test Him continually in our arrogant disregard of His love for us, which He renews every day- waiting always for "light to shine out of darkness" and love to be born in us, and grow in us, and govern our actions and attitudes.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us ALL, and His corrections are delivered for the purpose of turning us from our wickerd ways and preserving us from the harshest consequences of them, but all along the way He extends mercy, and cries out with the voice of wisdom that has gone out over the whole earth, "Listen!"
:cloud9: :cloud9:
Quote from: Horan on October 05, 2015, 08:55:01 PM
It appears to me entirely certain, from scripture, that not all will be saved at Christ's second coming, that a selection will take place, a harvest, such as those deemed worthy will spend the next 1000 years growing and maturing in our Lord, while the rest will be food for the carrion birds, not necessarily hell, but hardly a happy enduing. However much one might like to believe in universal salvation. however many scriptural statements one might assemble which attest to all being saved, we still have to deal with a monumental body of evidence attesting to a selection taking place, actually very soon. So, if a case can be made for universal salvation, and I hope it can, I think one needs to concentrate attention on what transpires at the end of the millennium, the Gog and Magog battle, and the lake of fire; which is to say, what do these things mean and, if they might be understood to mean that all will be saved, how can such assertion be supported by scripture? I think scripture often does not make it clear which event or time-frame is being referenced, the first resurrection or the second.
I agree a selection being made, Jesus said at His coming would be gathered on one hand the sheep and on the other the goats to whom He will say "depart from Me into age-lasting fire" - from Mt 25:32-41 and 2 Thess 1:1,8 says He comes with His angels and in flaming fire.
(Mt 24:29,31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds under heaven..")
"At the last trump(et)" 1 Cor 15:52; Rev 11:15; 10:7
Rev 20:5,7 "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years are finished.. ..When the thousand years are expired.. Satan released, causes war, Gog, Magog.. :Chinscratch: Wonder how long?
Verse 11,12 (from ISA Interlinear - "and I perceived a throne white great.. and I perceived the dead little and great having stood in view of the God.."
I can't remember if I read this somewhere (or if the HS brought it to mind one day) but I believe the ancient autumn Holy Days (of Lev 23) are a sort of prophesying 0f our Lord's long second advent. Surely He fulfilled the Spring Holy Days (Feasts) by His first advent (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits (when a single sheaf of wheat was waved in the air) [and Pentecost]
It seems like a close pattern to me.. of the Fall Feasts - Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Tabernacles (Booths)
Trumpets is not hard to equate with His return.. And Tabernacles with Rev 21, when God's city "down steps to the earth" God will "booth/Tabernacle" with man.. And the one sitting on the throne said.. new all I am making.." (ISA interlinear)
Trumpets, 10 days later, Day of Atonement, 5 days later, Tabernacles
Jesus told the pharisees unless they believed (or did He say repented?) they would "die in their sins.. The second resurrection, it seems therefor (to me, anyway) that these ones rise still in their sins.
I guess personally, I have come to think that Judgment Day (2nd peak of His long 2nd advent) has got to be a very important 'day'.. And i found the more I thought about it, the more reasonable and logical it seems that the Great White Throne judgment be a gReat day of review.. A time of deeply engraving upon every heart, mind and psyche the full understanding of good from evil, which is also life from death.. God being both Life and Perfection.. but creating rational creatures was a real Pandora's box.. so to speak. A whole new world (or tree) of possibilities.. So the rescue was built in from the beginning/foundation.. (Imperfect ='s the opposite of life.)
Why not elect all to be saved in this life? :dontknow: But if this is God's sacred drama revealing true from untrue, etc.. a drama needs more than one character..
And since we Know God (Yahweh) shall be "all in all" we know the 2nd resurrection catches up with the 1st resurrection as to life, fulness, and joy, etc..
I guess I've come to think of the last line of Rev chapter 20 as being at the very end of (a very long?) 'day' of judgment - "and if any not was found in the scroll of life having been written" (any still not believing?) "he was cast into the LoF." (ISA interlinear)
Ancient Day Of Atonement was an annual national day of deep repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation (Lev 23:27-32)
Numbers 29:7 "...to afflict your soul.."
Lev 23:29 - "For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.." (ISA says "humbled")..
I think of 'Judgment Day' as a time of weeping and wailing.. outer darkness (for some for a time..)
If the 10 days between Trumpets and DOA represents the 1000 yr millennium, I've come to think of an all important Judgment Day as lasting 500 years, because of the 5 days between DOA and Tabernacles.
To me, history needs a very thorough Judgment/Discernment Day. I can't go back in my thinking.. To rise the not yet saved still in their sins and simply toss them into punishment, seems wasteful and not logical.. If election is onLy via HiS election, why should the non-elect's coming to the knowledge of the faith/redemption be any more stringent than for those of the first. And every age, the great evils will be clearly vanquished and exposed.. "The Queen of the south will rise up in judgment toward this generation.." "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord.." Ps 22:27.
I hope this post is not over long! :doh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 05, 2015, 09:23:58 PM
There are 3 harvest seasons in real life and in God's Plan.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:Chinscratch: Mt 13:33 "Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal
till it was all leavened."
1 Corinthians 15:23,24 "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.."
Marie Glen, you said that to raise "...the not yet saved still in their sins and simply toss them into punishment, seems wasteful and not logical". And I entirely concur. The idea of it seems beyond belief, and also cruel, to raise up most of the people who have ever lived from their sleep of death, rub their noses in whatever they've done or not done, and then burn them to a crisp. And that's the nice version. The less nice version has them burning in torment forever! I suspect we're both referencing the end-of-millennium, 2nd resurrection, and I think this is where the biblical support needs to be found for universal salvation, that trying to work this out with the 1st resurrection is barking up the wrong tree, because there's obviously a selection that takes place at that time. I think those who are resurrected and translated at Jesus' 2nd coming will be spending that 1000 years continuing to grow and mature in Him, being prepared as ministers to that vast multitude who have not yet been reconciled to their Creator. And I suspect that the heavenly city, the new Jerusalem which descends to earth is not a literal city at all, but that it is simply us, or those who've joined Jesus in the air prior to the 1000 years. I think it's very important to nail this down, if it's true, with solid reasoning supported by scripture, because I can't imagine that God would wake all that vast multitude up from their sleep of death, only for the purpose of judging them, really sentencing them, just before either utterly destroying them, some more slowly than others, or tormenting them forever. I've heard one rationale for this being that all those living and all those who've ever lived need to see that God is just, but that's just stupid. as if we're incapable of understanding this without being witnesses to the most gruesome spectacle imaginable! Yet most of Christendom believes something along these lines.
On this site or another someone told me that judgment also means to set things right. Is it inconceivable that the elect, brought into Christ's kingdom at His second coming, will have been enlisted into His salvation army for the purpose of participating directly, with Him, in this aspect of the word, judgment? What does it mean to be rulers and priests with Jesus Christ?
And I'm sorry. I didn't realize how good these are:
Mt 13:33 "Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
1 Corinthians 15:23,24 "But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father.."
Is it possible that the lake of fire in Rev 20, if I may be so presumptuous, is us? My understanding is that water in Revelation is symbolic of people, in one sense or another. The fountain of living water is Jesus. Rivers are people. A sea is a multitude of peoples, nations and tongues. Since our God is a consuming, purifying fire, might the lake of fire be those raised up and translated at Christ's 2nd advent to become rulers, priests and judges with Him? The sea in Revelation is a diversity of peoples. Might not a lake be symbolic of a singular unity of them? This needs more than wishful thinking to support it. Interestingly, the first verse in chapter 21 talks of John seeing a new heaven and new earth, and there being no more sea; which might be to say, no more diversity of nations, peoples and tongues; which might be to say, that all will be singing the same song of praise to God almighty and victorious. Is this too much of a stretch?
On a different note I've copied and pasted this from a comment posted by Graph1159, where the first paragraph comes from the article which inspired this thread, and the second is Graph1159's comment on it, followed by my comment
If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent."
I do not know of any denomination that boldly teaches Universalism from a strictly Biblical standpoint. The more liberal denominations may downplay hell and loosen the requirements for salvation (possibily keeping a post-mortem door open), but I have not found a denomination that confidently asserts that Christ's death and resurrection has the redemptive power to actually draw all mankind back to God.
I'm somewhat in agreement with the author of the article in this matter, in that I see the potential problem with evangelizing universal reconciliation, given that people so rarely do the things they should do simply because they should, irregardless of consequences for either failing to act when they ought to act, or acting when they shouldn't. However, it may be that a doctrine of eternal torment for sinners, even though perhaps erroneous, has served a motivating purpose for a very long time, and simply is no longer necessary, given that we've arrived at the end of historical time as we've known it.
Jesus will soon be appearing in the clouds, very likely in my lifetime; which is to say, before twenty more years have elapsed, although I'd be surprised if He tarries more than ten, if I'm capable of reading the signs of my time with reasonable accuracy. He must come sooner rather than later, else no flesh will be saved. And since we're promised that there will be flesh saved, and no man can stand up persistently against the world that's rapidly being prepared for us and yet live, He must be coming quite soon. And for this reason I think that the terror and brutal deaths which will be experienced by all left behind can now, at this juncture, serve quite adequately as evangelistic motivation, obviating any dependence on a false doctrine of eternal suffering. In other words, if it can be legitimately taught that all will "eventually" be saved in terms of reason and scripture, the very real, impending doom facing many if not most, however ultimately impermanent, can be every bit as compelling and persuasive an argument as burning eternally in hell once was.
I would agree that the lake of fire signifies the elect, those who will partake in the first resurrection.
It is stated that the elect will judge angels.
Quotehave ye not known that we shall judge messengers? why not then the things of life?
1 Corinthians 6:3 YLT98
http://bible.com/821/1co.6.3.YLT98
I don't think it is referring to just spiritual beings.
In regards to evangelism there never was an urgency to evangelize. The good news is a declaration, a statement. It is God who saves not man. We evangelize to show the world what
God has done and what
God is doing and what
God is going to do. So in essence we would be saying that God should hurry up and save everyone now but we all know that is not Gods plan.
Furthermore I don't think it is wise to say when Christ will return because no one knows except the Father. IMO all you need to do is continue your life as you normally would humbly awaiting for his return.
Quote from: Aerex on October 06, 2015, 08:51:07 PM
In regards to evangelism there never was an urgency to evangelize. The good news is a declaration, a statement. It is God who saves not man. We evangelize to show the world what God has done and what God is doing and what God is going to do. So in essence we would be saying that God should hurry up and save everyone now but we all know that is not Gods plan.
Furthermore I don't think it is wise to say when Christ will return because no one knows except the Father. IMO all you need to do is continue your life as you normally would humbly awaiting for his return.
Perhaps urgency is neither the right word to use nor frame of mind to adopt; however, no man sows a field with the expectation of harvesting little, but with expectation of gathering in the greatest possible yield. I can't imagine that Jesus would regard the matter any differently, else He would not have enjoined His disciples to preach His gospel to all the world. Though we don't know the day or hour of His coming, is not Revelation a document intended to give us a sense of what to expect and when, at least approximately, to expect it? If we have just a penny's worth of human sympathy, don't we owe it to our neighbors to apprise them of the coming calamity, as well as His promise of salvation, however unpopular we might thus become? Certainly it's God who saves, not us, but I know from personal experience that He uses others to accomplish His work, or I would not be writing to you now. To explore this idea of universal reconciliation is a useless endeavor, if we have no intention of informing others of our findings, whatsoever they may be.
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Yet we know that there will be flesh saved, that there will be those alive at Christ's coming to be raised up, meeting Him and His resurrected dead in the air. And we should understand that no man or woman can stand against this world as it's coming to be and still live, because this world's message to all will very soon be to conform or die. I don't know the day or hour of His coming, but I'm simply not paying attention if I can't read the handwriting on the wall.
Well perhaps I misconstrued my words as well. I am not starting that we should not preach the gospel of universal reconciliation. What I am saying is not depending on our evangelism to saving people (aka saving souls). We are not on some strict timeline. Some will be in the first resurrection and some will be in the second. There is nothing we can change that. Your right God does use people for his purposes but it is always God who determines the end result, right?
Quote from: Aerex on October 06, 2015, 11:33:46 PM
Well perhaps I misconstrued my words as well. I am not starting that we should not preach the gospel of universal reconciliation. What I am saying is not depending on our evangelism to saving people (aka saving souls). We are not on some strict timeline. Some will be in the first resurrection and some will be in the second. There is nothing we can change that. Your right God does use people for his purposes but it is always God who determines the end result, right?
As I understand, God determines everything, from the beginning, through the middle and to the end. I have no control over the heart and mind of another. God creates them, sets them upon their paths through life, guides them as He chooses, and brings us together or not as He wills.
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15
And so it's been my hope to encounter others who can help me find support for universal reconciliation through scripture and sound reasoning, and indeed I have. Thank you. I haven't seen that the lake of fire might consist of God's people before this current exchange. Others' mileage may differ, but I'm entirely convinced that Jesus is coming very soon, and that for those who don't make the cut, it's going to be an extremely difficult, terrifying, and gruesome end, regardless that a happy ending awaits them eventually, so I'm compelled to conform my life as to make every second count. The prodigal son turned on His heals and headed home when he'd exceeded his tolerance for suffering, but I'm sure his father would have been delighted to see his son returning long before that moment was reached, and perhaps the time of his pain might have been considerably shortened if only someone had suggested he go home before he thought seriously of it himself. We're enjoined to love our neighbor as our self. How better might we do this? Indeed, God is entirely in charge of everything, but that doesn't give me an excuse for sitting on my hands.
Quote from: Horan on October 07, 2015, 07:59:58 AM
As I understand, God determines everything, from the beginning, through the middle and to the end. I have no control over the heart and mind of another. God creates them, sets them upon their paths through life, guides them as He chooses, and brings us together or not as He wills.
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 Peter 3:15
And so it's been my hope to encounter others who can help me find support for universal reconciliation through scripture and sound reasoning, and indeed I have. Thank you. I haven't seen that the lake of fire might consist of God's people before this current exchange. Others' mileage may differ, but I'm entirely convinced that Jesus is coming very soon, and that for those who don't make the cut, it's going to be an extremely difficult, terrifying, and gruesome end, regardless that a happy ending awaits them eventually, so I'm compelled to conform my life as to make every second count. The prodigal son turned on His heals and headed home when he'd exceeded his tolerance for suffering, but I'm sure his father would have been delighted to see his son returning long before that moment was reached, and perhaps the time of his pain might have been considerably shortened if only someone had suggested he go home before he thought seriously of it himself. We're enjoined to love our neighbor as our self. How better might we do this? Indeed, God is entirely in charge of everything, but that doesn't give me an excuse for sitting on my hands.
This is my goal too.. to have simple (yet profound:) truth and vision from God's word to easily pass on to others. I believe angles of darkness, er make that angels - though I'm sure there's plenty of angles of darkness too - do all they can to confuse the minds of we who are saved. Then, when we don't understand something, we end up doing loop de loops in our minds using God's Word. Things, or rather, anything, that goes beyond God's Word. They sound impressive, but they're merely smoke screens. Clever smoke screens.. Causing us to lose listeners.
I really dislike any such complications. I think God's Word is all truth, and that it is apparent.
Here's an example - just an example/ best example, not a thread within a thread, pls - straight forward reading, Mt 24: 29-31 (clipped for brevity) says "immediately after the tribulation of those days.. they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds.. He will send His angels out to collect His elect.."
Where all the clever loop de loops come from, contradicting those very plain words, is beyond me.. "so shall it be as it was in the days of Noah,
on the day he entered the ark.." More loop de loops contradicting those very plain and straightforward words.. I don't get it. Lack of true understanding makes us create in our mind things which go beyond.. or even against God's Word. Drives me crazy. Especially when everyone nods and says, yes, yes.. you are so right, I can see that loop de loop so perfectly.. :dontknow: ? I'm a down to earth gal. Just give me the straight scriptures. Nothing added. Nothing taken away.
:Pray: :Peace2:
I find planting seeds of "good news" verses, using "all" work very well, simply quoting them to fellow christians (& ps 22:27).. mostly here on the internet.. posting about it from time to time on facebook (seen by friends, family and acquaintances there). But especially with the not yet saved, any chance I get (or opening) to mention how the message has been misconstrued.. That we're simply
all learning good from evil (life from nonlife) (etc) I believe helps people to be more open to the message of Jesus and God's Kingdom.. [This blasphemy of "hell" (or even annihilation) keeps the good news very buried!!]
And I think you are right, if someone asks me for the proof, the references/verses, I should know where those verses are and what they say.. I also want to clearly understand Bible prophecy, especially of course 'end' times prophecy.. Not because I'm afraid (which is what one can get 'accused' of :icon_flower: ) but so I can pass on a clear helpful message for those days (esp the 'calendar' of Dn 12:11,12)..
In real life, as opposed to the web, so far, I know more 'preppers' or prepper interested, than I do those coming to the faith.. but I do believe walls are being torn down.. Trying to persuade too much, pushes people away.. or so I think, usually anyway.. God bless! His
Word is Truth. :smile:
Interesting. I have an understanding; which is to say, something less than certainty concerning Daniel's 2300 and 1260 years, but know nothing about the 1290 and 1335 of Dan 12:11-12. I'll look into this. My understanding, again not absolute certainty, is that these should be understood as years rather than days, but I shall look into it.
But I'm nonetheless in agreement with you Marie, regarding the certainty of our Lord's literal return. I like the understanding of Him returning in great clouds of thousands upon thousands of gloriously radiant angels, but that too is open to contention, although His literal coming again is not, as well as it being abundantly clear that people won't be expecting it when He comes, that it will be as in the days of Noah, that they'll be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, right on until the end. How many times does He tell us that He will come as a thief, unexpectedly, by surprise?
And interestingly, in Revelation 16:15, right between the pouring out of the the 6th and 7th bowls, He reminds us that He will come as a thief, and we're enjoined to keep our garments, our being clothed in the Lord, lest we be found naked and ashamed. Therefore we should understand that even these last plagues can't be literal, else He simply will not return as a thief, but that these are symbolic of spiritual plagues, which have largely, already been poured out.
This may seem to be a digression from the stated theme of this thread, but you can't separate these things. We have both a first and second resurrection, and much scripture pointing to either one or the other or both of these, and if you want be able to defend a doctrine of universal reconciliation, you must nail down the appropriate context for it, and provide solid, rational, scriptural support. In the Bible-believing world, standing for universal salvation is swimming well against the mainstream. I don't for a second think getting this right is requirement for salvation, but it certainly is important with regard to teaching others, especially those who've absorbed an eternal hell-fire understanding, whether they've accepted it or not. If you can satisfactorily demonstrate that God's mercy is stubborn enough to overcome all obstacles, and that there's been a plan in effect since the beginning of time for accomplishing His conquest without any loss of life; well then, I suppose you've done all you can do.
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2015, 08:13:24 PM
And I think you are right, if someone asks me for the proof, the references/verses, I should know where those verses are and what they say.. I also want to clearly understand Bible prophecy, especially of course 'end' times prophecy.. Not because I'm afraid (which is what one can get 'accused' of :icon_flower: ) but so I can pass on a clear helpful message for those days (esp the 'calendar' of Dn 12:11,12)..
I'm not interested in prophecy because of fear either, but because I want to be able to demonstrate to others the veracity of Isaiah 46:10. Your mileage may differ, but my understanding of Revelation is that most of it has already happened, across the span of these past 2000 years, and that this is what now makes it such a powerful tool for exposition and evangelizing. I had forgotten that I'd previously examined the time prophecies in Daniel 12, the 1290 and 1335, and decided not to pursue because they didn't seem to provide any more significant information than the 1260, but seemed to be variations on the same theme. I still suspect this, but I probably better make an effort to nail these down. My understanding of the 1260 is that these days are a number of years, also expressed as a time, times and half a time, and also as 42 months which all, using the day for year rubric, evaluate as 1260 years, which has been very convincingly demonstrated to be the period of papal supremacy between 538 and 1798 A.D., when finally the pope was disposed by Napoleon's general Berthier, also convincingly demonstrated to coincide with Daniel 7:25 "And he (the Pope or Roman church) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: (changed the Sabbath and Ten Commandments) and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.", also convincingly demonstrated to be the same period of time depicted in Revelation 12, which rather convincingly depicts Christ's church under duress during this time. And that's not the end of the evidence for this either, so it would take a very powerful augment to convince me that these time prophecies point to anything else. although I should be open to it. Though it is difficult to parse and understand, I believe Revelation is telling a very simple, straight forward story that's very nicely anchored in the last 2000 years of history and that, except for the millennium part and what follows, only a very little remains to unfold.
But still, we can't know the day or hour. That's very clear. However, there are some things indicated which can inform us that we're getting close. And we can see with our own eyes, hear with our own ears the formation of a one world system. And already there is mounting evidence that the beast system will very soon be up to its old tricks, with a renewed and even more comprehensive persecution of Christ's faithful. I think we'll soon be hearing a very, very loud outcry for oneness and unity, for the good of all, and a growing to absolute intolerance for any deviation from the conformity such world unity requires. I think these things are clearly being played out in our own lifetimes, and I'm thus convinced Jesus will be returning very soon, else no flesh will be saved; which is to say, any living faithful with be either dead or converted to apostasy. Nobody can stand up against the beast indefinitely and live; therefore, Jesus must be coming very soon. Fearful? I want to become so good, so effective at evangelizing that they slice my head off! :)
I don't quite understand why Jesus needs to come now given your reasonings.
Quote from: Aerex on October 08, 2015, 07:47:16 PM
I don't quite understand why Jesus needs to come now given your reasonings.
Aerex, that may or may not be because we have different understandings of the world we live in. I've spent the last ten years very intensely studying this world, trying to understand what's wrong with it, ever since I became aware that something was. Your mileage may differ. Certainly not everybody agrees with me, in fact in my own neighborhood I can find hardly anybody who does, since I live at the epicenter of progressive liberalism, you know, the humanistic belief in man's ability to perfect himself and that, in time, going forward, we shall be able to successfully evolve to our full, compassionate potential? I've been a conspiracy theorist for many years, never dreaming that my inquiry would lead me to Jesus Christ, and fundimetally so. And now I'm not such a conspiracy theorist anymore. It's all quite true, these conspiracies, but I now understand that there's nothing to be done for this world, and that Jesus has got the solution already covered. Still, I was seeing the handwriting on the wall before I understood who was writing it. I haven't the slightest idea how to condense ten years of studying these things into a single argument in support of the end being very close upon us, so I will need to content myself with doing my best to have a solid grasp of the evidence for Christ's solution, and expect that others will at least have a sense of what that handwriting means, given that it's not exactly necessary to spend ten years to understand that there's something very, very wrong. Still, don't be a fool for that pope who's getting so much adulation and attention; He's not what he appears to be. If you might be compelled to ask me why I say this, I suggest you probably know how to use the Internet as well as I do. You've heard of the inquisition, right? Nobody can stand upright in their faith against the beast and live, but Christ has told us that there will be faithful people yet living when He comes. "Be wise and serpents, yet gentle as doves." Observe this world with great interest, while waiting patiently on Jesus Christ.
God bless you Sir! :)
Mark
..Not a calendar or date setting, but a counting backwards. Daniel 12:11,12 - "From the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, until the abomination that desolates is set up will be 3.5 (Hebrew) years, plus 30 days. Blessed is the one who makes it to 45 days later."
The "daily sacrifice" of course is usually thought, by Bible prophecy buffs to have to do with (finally) a third temple.. but I think it refers to a place of daily prayers and praise (in Israel). part of the reason I believe this is because when Jesus' disciples said to Him, speaking of the Temple complex "see all this..!" Jesus replied and siad "see all these, no one stone shall remain atop another."
Yet there, to this day, stands the Wailing (Western) Wall.. It seems to me this prophecy is saying when folks in that day see the removal, demolition or taking away of this wall, 3.5 (Hebrew) years plus 30 days later, the final abomination will be "set up", in this case, surely(?) the 666 apparatus. "And blessed is the one who waits and comes to 45 days later." I figure the 3.5 in this instance as years, as it hard for one to wait and come to 1335 years..
Not date setting.. but what "happy" thing occurs on day 45 of 666, or day 1335 after the (place of) of daily sacrifice/praise and prayers is taken away..
Daniel 12:11-12 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
(pasted) "11 and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual [sacrifice], and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
12 O the blessedness of him who is waiting earnestly, and doth come to the days, a thousand, three hundred, thirty and five."
The day for a year is how a thousand years, to YHWH, seems like a day..
Revelation 12 has a 3.5 (time, times and half a time which in that case I think is 3.5 modern divisions of time.. specifically 1620 + 350, bringing us to a flood/proliferation from the serpent guise of the dragon, flood of a social phenomenon which had been previously mostly hidden.. But, next verse, the earth will open its mouth and
swallow the proliferation/flood - cross ref - Luke 23:28,31.
Drought.
Luke 23:28-31 - Jesus said to them, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for childrens' children.. For if they do this (crucify me) in a greenleaf, what will be done in the dry?
It would be good to warn folks of a coming drought. And I also think is a landmark, when the "perpetual" (praising) is brought to an end, whether having to do with a 3rd temple, or sooner than that :doh: if they see the wailing wall dismantled/removed in some way.. 3.5 yrs plus 30 days later - 666, which will hum along, for 45 days.
11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days."
Quote from: Horan on October 08, 2015, 07:20:52 PM
...we can see with our own eyes, hear with our own ears the formation of a one world system. And already there is mounting evidence that the beast system will very soon be up to its old tricks, with a renewed and even more comprehensive persecution of Christ's faithful. I think we'll soon be hearing a very, very loud outcry for oneness and unity, for the good of all, and a growing to absolute intolerance for any deviation from the conformity such world unity requires. I think these things are clearly being played out in our own lifetimes...
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Absolutely! though I may be older than you.. :smile: Not that I still might not be here.. but I surely want to pass on clear and cohesive warnings to my kids and grandkids..
Speaking of the inquisitions.. Not many seem to follow what I'm saying when i say that too is is rev chapter 12. ..the dragon.. via Herod.. stood in front of the manchild (son of man) to devour Him as soon as born, but he now sits at the right hand of the Father.. the dragon was wroth.. the battle half done.. and when he found he no longer had any access to the heavens in great rage he persecuted/inqusitioned the woman/the faith, the mantle now worn by Christ-ianity.. But she, is given the wings of an eagle that she may fly (sail) to a new place (a 2nd migration of the faith, 1st is in previous verses).
She is kept safe from the face of the dragon for 3.5 (modern) division of time.. 1620+350=1970's.. til the serpent/dragon slews a flood after her in an attempt to wash the faith from off the earth.. (this flood followed the false prophet/teaching (and strong delusion) which allowed it and has turned christendom on its ear - These all of course are the prophecy pattern for late days, a different world from yesteryear and their beasts.. The adversary is an angel of light.. changing.. Not to say he won't use the pope or whomever he also can to contribute to the call for one worldness..
But the earth will aid the woman and swallow the flood.. then the dragon will return his attention to the rest of the woman's offspring who have the commandments of God and (by then) the testimony of Jesus. Remember how Jesus said to Jerusalem, you shall not see me again, until you say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" and Paul wrote, "If their falling away is our salvation, then what shall their redemption be but life from the dead?" - resurrection.. the first.
Notice how the inscription of $ity babble on (and on)'s forehead/psyche is responsible for all shed blood since Cain slew Abel.. Man's empire, including, and especially the final one world empire, where the kings/politicians are in bed with the harlot - The Greek=ing "pornos" and "to sell"... The harlot seduces all 7 continents mesmerizing them with her enchantments/charm. She will crash in one hour and fall in a day.. the merchants will weep for she made them wealthy by selling their products and luxuries, right down to the bodies of mankind(male and female). she has a frothing (golden) cup of her side effects which the nations shall drink of, the fornication, perversions, sex slave trade and the dissolution of society and family..
Capitalism went "pornos".. the ten kings/toes/horns/divisions of the (final) world beast/body will devour the harlot.. (Extreme) Socialism will finally consume (extreme) Capitalism.. "Ye shall have tribulation ten days" Rev 2:20. "Cannot buy or sell" 1290 days after (place of?) daily sacrifice/prayers is taken away, for 45 days with(?) the last ten days "will be killed" w/o "the mark"..
uh oh, did I change the thread..? I can never talk about Bible prophecy within reason!
Back to the original topic.. UR to me, is simply a matter of redemption this side of life.. or the other side (for those of the 2nd resurrection which is "1000 years after the 1st) during a glorious 'day' of judgment when all of history (and its truth proving lessons) is examined by all.. I believe this because of the pattern of the ancient Fall Feasts, since the Spring ones were fulfilled by Jesus' first advent, then surely His long 2nd advent will fulfill the Autumn ones. Israel's annual national day of judgment, repentance and reconciliation was their Day of Atonement..
It's lovely how Day of Atonement flows into Tabernacles... Rev 21:3 & 1 Corinthians 15:23,24.
..'hell', we could say, is a false prophecy.
The two, written in the scriptures as going to the lake of fire is the false prophet and the beast, specifically the 'big' beast of Rev 13:1-10, as opposed to 11-18, the 'little' beast.
Both of these "in the LOF" at the end of the age, are not persons. :doh: What!?? I know, it's hard to believe I said that, but I'm quite serious. Two in the LOF. Not alive. (Imo). Even though the verse says they are thrown "alive" into the lake of fire. Logically, since they are not alive, it's likely they are - active - upon earth when Jesus returns.. and they are thrown alive into the lake..
The 'big' beast is of course, or will be, the world beast/body and the false prophet is that teaching and strong delusion which has turned Western Civilization on its ear. He too is in our faces as pretty as you please.
The Word of God is how much % prophecy? I forget. I just wanted to say 'hell' is a false prophecy.
But wait! One more weird thing.. I sometimes believe the lake of fire is just what it says, death. And along with that, of course, is the belief that no one goes there.
Perfect, which YHWY is, makes no mistakes. Loses nothing.
The 'end' result of all this - human history, etc., can only be the best one possible. Prophecy (I think) is the natural way things flow to get there. From point A to point Z. ..and a lot of logic which shines through to us in His Presence, the quietness.. Or rather, in His quiet Spirit..
I'm pretty sure now, though I'll need to study it some more, that the lake of fire is God's people. Again, your mileage may vary, but I understand that almost any sort of water structure in Revelation is symbolic of people, as are grass and trees. A sea, for example, is a multitude of nations, peoples and tongues. At any rate, though I'll need to study it some more, it seems like this understanding might resolve the issue of where (in Revelation) and when (in time) universal salvation takes place, because it can't be at Jesus' 2nd coming, which so many verses point to as a selective harvest event. The beast and false prophet are not people, in my understanding, but really institutions, or institutionalized ideologies. The beast specifically, in our time, is Rome, ridden by the harlot, or apostate church of Rome. My understanding is that the identity of the false prophet moves around a bit over time, but that in these end-times this is the United States, which is also the image of the beast. But I think there's a more generalized way of understanding these which pertains better to the post-millennial picture having to do with the marriage of state power and false religion, which references back to our three friends, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego being thrown into the fiery furnace for refusing to worship the statue, in defiance of state power, but in obedience to God. So if the lake of fire is God's people; which is to say, those reconciled to Him at Christ's 2nd coming and commissioned to be, with Jesus, rulers and priests of The Most High, I suspect this lake of fire is symbolic of the purifying and sanctifying work that will be cut out for them at the second resurrection, when Satan is loosed again to deceive the nations, and that the 2nd death either might not be a literal death at all, but a death of sin, and of corruption and of death itself, as indicated in the text, or possibly another harvest-time, though I'd like to lean toward it being the final death of sin and death itself.
My take on the LOF is that it is death in the Prodigal Son sort of way. I don't think that the LOF is people because Revelation describes God's people as dwelling within the city of New Jerusalem (the bride) separated by an open gate from the fire outside, and that nothing unclean may enter. Personally, I see the LOF as representing the sin that brings metaphysical death and destruction until the person repents and returns to God. The Lake of Fire is a death, and I believe the Bride offers life in constrast. My reasoning my be found here:
http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html
Quote from: Seth on October 09, 2015, 07:53:18 AM
My take on the LOF is that it is death in the Prodigal Son sort of way. I don't think that the LOF is people because Revelation describes God's people as dwelling within the city of New Jerusalem (the bride) separated by an open gate from the fire outside, and that nothing unclean may enter. Personally, I see the LOF as representing the sin that brings metaphysical death and destruction until the person repents and returns to God. The Lake of Fire is a death, and I believe the Bride offers life in constrast. My reasoning my be found here:
http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace2.html
Well, I don't want to argue, but only suggest you consider, though I can't imagine that salvation depends on this, that the city isn't actual, but symbolic, also of God's people, His saints, the fruits of His harvest after his first fruits, Jesus Christ. And there's no open gate with fire outside in my Book of Revelation. There's mention instead of the nations being gathered to battle upon the breadth of the earth, compassing the camp of the saints about, although the fire is said to come down from heaven, which I suspect implies the Holy Spirit. I suggest 'camp' isn't synonymous with city, but that it's a symbolic reference to a spiritual battle, as an army makes camp or encampment. I don't want to argue about your prodigal son notion, since he's always a great symbol of reconciliation. Isn't it fair to say these battles, Armageddon and Gog-Magog are another way of expressing the same story? In chapter 21 there's quite a bit of detail about the Holy city, and its bejeweled gates. I'd suspect this also is not literal, but that all these precious jewels are symbols pertaining to Christ's character, and by extension, the character of His people, although I haven't examined the symbolism of jasper, topaz and such. I'll stick for the time being with people, that God's people comprise an Holy city, ablaze with the Holy Spirit, such that they are as a lake of fire burning up everything sinful and corrupt, until finally death itself is utterly consumed.
Thanks for the link. I've mailed it to myself so I can read it on my phone at work tomorrow.
Hi Horan,
I'm not saying you have to agree with me about it, just throwing my POV into the ring about why I have reservations about the LOF being people. I would agree that the language of the city is symbolic, but in Revelation I see the symbols describing both death and life with distinct symbolic references. The fire is a death, and the water of life is in the city. The open gate I am talking about is described at the end of Revelation 21, and in chapter 22, it describes how that outside are those who are not the bride. And at the end of the chapter it says
Revelation 22
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
The bride is represented by the city. That's why they say "come" to those outside. And they offer water which brings life. All symbolic I agree. But I do see distinction between life and death and inside and outside being dilineated by the symbols, in my opinion. I don't believe the Bride is death, but the lake of fire is a death by definition.
I think the lake of fire involves the great assembly, including saints and angels in the presence of God and His holy ones.
"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Rev 14
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. Rev 20
2Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? 1 Cor 6
I also think the New Jerusalem is built of living stones, a habitation of God in the Spirit....
"This is the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face-- even Jacob. Selah. 7Lift up your heads, O gates, And be lifted up, O ancient doors, That the King of glory may come in! 8Who is the King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, The LORD mighty in battle....
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty
The lake of fire is an image for something the human mind cannot conceive(imo)- but I believe there is a literal correlation, it will take place in space and time(imo) because as long as there are adversaries yet to be purged and reconciled there will be death and time, hence the "second death" will not end until God is all in all.
Those are my theories about it, but mainly I just rejoice because whatever it is, the LOF will end with every knee bowed and every tongue confessing the Lordship of Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father.
11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Rev 5
:banana:
I definitely see a possibility that the LOF judgment could be mediated or administered by the Bride. To me it fulfills a pattern that God worked through Christ and Christ therefore works through his people.
Amen!
If you have to scare them into the Kingdom with messages of eternal torment, you must also keep threatening them with that same fearful message. It all adds up to depression and anxiety for many in the congregation.
John the beloved disciple, who was the closest to the heart of Jesus said:
Quote1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
1Jn 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
It seems to me from these verses that most of the Church lives with fear as a constant in the background of their hearts. I know I did. I did not know it was there until it began to come out of my mouth in the things I was complaining about to God.
John speaks about
Quoteknowing and believing the Love God has for us
But it became obvious to me that God did not love me at all, but was going to torment me in Hell forever if I was not obedient to Him...or so I reasoned.
Just let Hell believers fall into some sin for a while so that they lose their cocky confidence in their own strength at serving God. Then their inner core beliefs about Hell will come up to torment them. It is at that time that God is able to open eyes to see that they have not known God at all really....but some other god..a god of hell and burning flesh., something the true God said never entered into His mind to do such a thing.
QuoteJer_7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,(Gehenna) to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.
QuoteJer_32:35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.'
Quote from: Rhodes on October 23, 2015, 03:30:48 PM
...fear as a constant in the background
Amen!! one can sense the spirit of a teaching and idea.. if it's oppresive.. brings fear.. or anger or any other negative (fruit) we should question the teaching and idea.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
It seems to me that this fellow is confusing "Universalism" ("all paths lead to God") with "Universal Reconciliation" ("There is one Path, Jesus, through which everybody will at last pass"). Anyway, 99% of these arguments are more about the pain of Hell rather than about its duration. I believe many forget that UR doesn't "cancel" Hell, but it only questions its duration. To me, the only "heretical" question UR asks is: "Can we repent also after death?". I believe it is the core of UR, at least from my viewpoint...
To me the challenges to biblical universalism are(roughly) to re explain "hell" as Sheol, Gehenna and the lake of fire.
To re-explain the fire of God as corrective, purging and not literally fire and the "many stripes few stripes of corrective discipline.
To clearly show the integration of the primary scriptures that plainly declare all will be saved
To re-explain the ultimate purpose of God, the aionian calling of the saints and the aions
I really dont think believers in UR ought to give much credit to modern western Christianity or make deals to let them have their "hell" but on a limited basis. But then, I personally think "Hell" and ET is much of the reason why Christianity is failing "as a religion".
IMO There is no hell of fiery eternal torment or annihilation such as what is described by western protestantism and roman theology , and it is unscriptural and counterproductive- "You make the word of God of none effect with your traditions".
To me there is just the fire of God's love, that consumes all the darkness and every lie, by searching out the imward parts of every man, until every secret is revealed and every knee bowed and every adversary subjected.
A fire that burns until God is all in all and death is no more :o)
Someone rang the doorbell this morning, and left a flyer. This gift came from some local Baptist church, and mentioned "hell." I think I may send it back with a printed copy of "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No." Got a laser printer now - so cheap to print. Benjamin Franklin would have been astounded, and for that matter, Gutenberg.
Great word brother! :dsunny:
I mentioned that I didn't want to wake up too many old threads but at the same time I think the ones here are useful and I can use my responses to this request to explain a bit about what I'm unsure of, what I wonder about and what I strongly believe so here goes, hope I can do a good job of this:
"Some false teachers today would like us to think that everybody will eventually get to heaven. Don't believe them.
William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army and a man who dedicated his life to lifting the poor out of sin and poverty, reportedly made this statement: "Most Christian organizations would like to send their workers to Bible college for five years. I would like to send our workers to hell for five minutes. That would prepare them for a lifetime of compassionate ministry."
Booth never suggested that the desperate people he served were "already in hell." He believed in a real, eternal hell, and it drove him to rescue people from both their current plight and future perdition.
Shortly before his death in 1912, Booth warned prophetically that he saw coming to the church "forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration ... a heaven without a hell."
In today's theological fog, his ominous caveat is unfolding. Even some who claim to believe the Bible are having second thoughts about eternal judgment, and others have rejected the notion of judgment altogether. The name usually given this teaching is Universalism.
Universalism basically is the belief that all people will be saved. Jesus' death and resurrection will automatically, or at least eventually, save the whole human race. Personal repentance and faith in Christ are not necessary for going to heaven. The Christian mission is reduced to announcing to people the "good news" that they are already saved.
But does Scripture teach that everyone will be saved? There is overwhelming biblical evidence to the contrary.
I'd like to offer 24 reasons to reject Universalism. You may be able to add a few of your own.
Was Booth being ironic with that quote, clearly he was contradicting himself because he supposedly didn't believe anyone went to Hell for five minutes, it contradicts the concept for him.
Salvationism is a word that might make a nice description for our beliefs unfortunately the SA seem to have poached it.
1. Jesus made both repentance and faith prerequisites for forgiveness. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, NKJV). "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15).
Actually, I'm not as sure as this as other people on this. Certainly absolution seems to depend on repentance and I do believe it's necessary for final salvation. But there seem to be several occasions in The Bible where God appears to give forgiveness when no repentance is in evidence. We just have to infer it which doesn't always seem plausible. I wonder that we may have misunderstood this relationship slightly.
2. The "water of life" is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. "Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17).
Why can't they just except what this actually seems to say? Yes, there's seems to be caveats in the Revelation that suggest some people might struggle to access the water, but that reading is so far removed from what it says.
3. Scripture teaches that there will be a judgment after death. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).
Yeah, the operative expression being 'for men', ie all men. This speaks nothing as to who will or won't be saved.
4. Those who have not had a true conversion will experience a judgment for sin that the Bible describes as "the second death." "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
Come on! I some translations I've seen it says 'all kinds of liars' just in case the reader might think there are people this list doesn't cover. There's nothing surprising about statements that such people won't get into the City. It doesn't prove that anyone will remain as such.
5. Contrary to Universalist beliefs, Jesus' teaching indicates that most of humanity is on a broad path that leads to destruction. "'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, "Lord, Lord, open for us," and He will answer and say to you, "I do not know you, where you are from. ... Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity"'" (Luke 13:24-27).
This looks very like Luke has has merged two saying of Jesus for theological purposes. Not sure it means entirely what the writer of the article thinks it means.
6. Jesus spoke often of a terrible place of judgment for those outside His kingdom rule. "'The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth'" (Matt. 13:41-42).
Ooh, so in this picture the wicked get into the Kingdom and have to be thrown out again? Not sure this really serves ETers purposes. I imagine it means that that the Kingdom is being built around us metaphorically speaking although it does seem to be an incredibly rare way of presenting it.
7. The Bible teaches both the love of God and His sure judgment of sin. Trusting in Christ's payment for our sins saves us from this coming judgment. "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).
Your point being? So many of this quotes seem to be written imagining the reader will infer something not found in the text. And the obvious reasding of this one eems to be exactly the opposite of what the writer wants us to understand.
8. In one of the most loving verses in the Bible, Jesus issues eternal options. "'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life'" (John 3:16).
He called it one of the most loving verses in the Bible but apparently there are people that love doesn't extend to. How can he say that and then think that 'the world' means less than THE WORLD.
9. Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. "The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
I concede that this is one of the hardest verses in the Bible for the likes of us an I think discussing it will take us beyond the scope of this thread but I do observe that that key phrase 'everlasting destruction' appears nowhere else in the Bible.
10. Jesus emphatically taught that a spiritual birth is essential to entering the kingdom of heaven. "'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'" (John 3:3).
Again just stating that fact conveys no information about why certain parties should be excluded from said rebirth.
11. In answer to a very clear question about what is necessary for salvation, Paul gave a very clear answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" (Acts. 16:31).
I'll be honest I'm not much of a Christian. I've never been entirely sure what that belief was meant entail. It's often stated very simply but somehow I think it speaks
to more than some intellectual belief in a man who was God and some miracles He performed. I think it has to be deeper than that, quite possibly beyond complete expression. Paul
certainly puts no deadline of receiving this belief.
12. Jesus gave no indication that many roads lead to God. He forcefully stated that He was the only way. "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me'" (John 14:6).
Yes, and... I often think this statement must be much more profound than it appears to many modern readers. It's hard not to suspect many of us have managed to dilute it's meaning through overuse and quite possibly misuse in the centuries since Jesus said it.
[cont.]
13. The early preachers of the church clearly preached that Jesus is the only way to salvation. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12; see also 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:3-5).
This was a 'pun' not like a modern ha, ha, pun but a statement about the belief that there was a real spiritual significance to what Jesus' name means and is certainly related to the above statements. It certain doesn't explain why we have to resign ourselves to the everlasting torment of countless people.
14. According to Scripture, only those who receive Jesus Christ and believe in Him are children of God. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).
Aren't they just repeating themselves here. They want to imply that some did receive Him and being Children of God is equal to being saved and going to Heaven although as they've stated it the quote doesn't say that.
15. The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16; see also 10:9).
I have to imagine here that the reader is supposed to draw the conclusion the writer wants them to by conflating these quotes but that still doesn't work because they still don't say what he'd like them to say.
16. Rather than teaching that those without faith in Christ are already saved, the Bible teaches that they are already under judgment. Faith in Christ brings us out of condemnation and into right relationship with God. "'He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'" (John 3:18).
This is a confusing quote, there's some dispute over whether it's a quote of Jesus or a commentary of John on a quote of Jesus as I recall. I lean towards the second at the moment but it sill doesn't say what the writer of the article wants it to.
17. Only those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life are granted access into the eternal city of God. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15; see also 21:27).
I don't pretend I don't think this is a bit of a problem, hopefully i'll discuss these concerns later.
18. People are not automatically righteous. Only when we declare faith in Jesus Christ does God declare us righteous in His sight. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).
Does the Greek actually say 'justifies the ungodly'? No-one in faith of Jesus can still be called 'ungodly' surely? If it does it must mean it in the looser sense. Or else it's a shorthand for saying 'justifies those who were ungodly' Otherwise it sound to me a bit contrary as written.
19. Eternal life comes only through a relationship with God. We cannot know the Father unless we know the Son. "'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'" (John 17:3).
Which we can look forward to, as can everyone else and why not? It doesn't give a reason here.
20. The cross of Christ is where payment for our sins was made. Only when we believe this are we saved. "'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up [on a cross], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life'" (John 3:14-15).
This is really the same argument over and over. Basically salvation must be preceded by belief which is fine but doesn't demonstrate any sort of obstacle but simply makes assumptions about what belief or lack of will look like. And that the time to find it is finite which I'm not sure it says anywhere.
21. Only those who have the Son of God have eternal life. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12).
Perfectly true, but they obviously don't have the Son against His choice do they? So that again shows they aren't likely to have Him by their original choice.
In addition to these verses, the story of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 provides hard evidence against Universalism. Cornelius was devout, prayed often, gave generously to the poor and even received an angelic visitation. Yet God went to great lengths to get the gospel to him so he could come to know Jesus and be saved.
This just looks like a preview for argument 23 below, I'll attempt to address it there.
22. Added to the avalanche of scriptural evidence, there are also practical reasons for rejecting Universalism. History teaches that acceding to Universalism sets the church on a slippery slide toward theological liberalism. Soon all confidence in Scripture is lost and the uniqueness of the Christian gospel evaporates.
So what? This has no obvious support and presupposes a bias against liberalism which actually takes many forms. I actually think that the faith is properly highly liberal. The problem is that 'liberalism' these days is associated with the idea of being at liberty to commit any sin you wish forgetting that the Bible teachs that people who sin and are in sin do not have freedom. Therefore it is not correct to promote liberalism as freedom to sin as much as you please.
23. If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent.
I'm a bit surprised at how little this spurious statement seems to be opposed on this thread. This Gospel its self demands that it is preached. It is worth spread and worth hearing and that is enough. As I mention in my introduction one of the main motivations for my coming here was that I know this of evangelism and yet am so poor at it.
24. If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ.
I am trying to write these post in the patient and generous spirit that I have identified all over these boards, and I'm aware people don't like people writing long sentences as it tends to be taken as shouting. But while so far I have been discussing my doubts and questions about UR this statement speaks to what I actually believe about it and I feel is should speak with conviction:
THIS IS A MONSTROUS LIE!
Years ago, when I used to believe in Eternal Damnation, not with any conviction I just did know there was an acceptable alternative, I read the parable of the sheep and the goats and, for reason beyond the scope of this thread it became my least favourite parable in the Bible.
Since then I have changed and reconsidered how I understand this parable many times but despite that I continue to believe that there is one truth that the parable speaks that remains true whatever belief you hold about Eschatology.
At the judgement God will divide everyone into two groups you can call them the saved and the damned or the saved and the destroyed or the saved now and the saved later but one thing remains the same. On Judgement Day God will make a decision and that decision will irreversibly effect everyone. It doesn't matter for the moment what the duration or intensity of torment for each of the different people in Hell is they will be in the second group when it would be better they had been in the first. Whatever happens they can never be in the first group that's just true.
When the promotors of Everlasting Torment are in Heaven do you think they'll want to spend their time talking about how the spent there lives telling people how they were going to Hell? Or How their loved ones were? I don't. The truth as I see it is this: Salvation in your future cannot change your past. So it's better to have the past, present and future you would want to have if you can achieve it.
The parable, as I understand it, speaks on what I'm about to say next too but I this it'll be simpler is I just quote the article writer from item for who is in turn quoting Revelation: "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8).
If, nay when, Universalism is proved true then at the judgement they will be accountable for every lie they have told and falsehood they have preached forwarding the message of Everlasting Damnation.
Now if Universalism is wrong that will be true of US too but how can he doubt that he will be judged for his lies if UR be true?
I said earlier that I was a sort of liberalist. Now liberalism gets a bad because it has a bad rep rep because it makes light of sin and indeed presents God as making light of sin. No I do not believe so. It is also held that pride is a sin but again I don't necessarily believe so. Do you not think there is pride in the phrase the claim that God saw the world he had made as 'very good'? Yey, I think it is there.
I actually believe that there is very little in the world that is not good in the proper proportion for God made it all. But sin has polluted the world so things on not in their proper proportion. We take more than we should and give less than we should. There is too many tears and too little laughter, too much pain and too little joy and, of course, too much hatred and too little love. This is what sin does. It is also what ET proponents seem to do. God has pride in His creation which sin is ruining so He naturally opposes sin and naturally does not oppose His creation as it should be. Such are my feeling anyway.
Unbroken Hearts
It needs to be said clearly that God's character is not on trial. The judge of all the earth will do what is right (see Gen. 18:25). Our faith is on trial. Our hearts are on trial. But God is not on trial. Whatever judgment He makes regarding those who have not responded to the gospel will be executed according to His standards of equally perfect righteousness and love.
When we ponder God's mercy, this whole issue is inverted. Because God is perfectly holy, the wonder is not that some will be lost. The greater wonder is that anyone from rebellious humanity will be saved! Only Christ's work on the cross could reconcile us to God.
God has put down the most massive roadblock possible to stop humanity's mad rush toward hell. He sent His Son. God intervened personally through Christ. His sacrifice on the cross paid the penalty for our sins. This is the good news for all who will believe and receive Him.
Espousing Universalism is sad. But rejecting it with no impact on our hearts or change in our priorities is sinister. If we believe that people are lost outside of Christ (and they are), and that faith in Christ is the only way of salvation (and it is), what could possibly be a higher priority than getting the gospel as far as we can as fast as we can?
To pronounce people "saved" who are obviously enslaved by darkness, deception and the devil is surely the cruelest of jokes. We are sent to a lost world with a gospel of power. Our message gives the spiritually blind their sight and liberates those who are chained by Satan. We do not preach that people are forgiven but that they can be forgiven.
I would not want to stand before Jesus Christ as a Universalist. But neither would I want to stand before the Lord as an evangelical who was not evangelistic. What a serious accounting must await us if we believe in eternal torment for those without faith in Christ--and yet do nothing! A recovery of biblical truth and compassionate evangelism are the twin screaming needs of the American church.
The apostle Paul said he would be willing to give up his place in Christ if by such a sacrifice others would be saved (see Rom. 9:2-3). He believed all people outside Christ were lost, and it left him with a broken heart.
More than encroaching Universalism, it is our unbroken hearts that often impede evangelism. Many Christians today have never even heard of "a burden for the lost." The harvest is huge and ready to be reaped by those who are willing to sow first in tears (see Ps. 126:5-6).
Right theology will only indict us if we do not recapture the evangelistic imperative. We must believe the truth, and we must act on what we believe. Let's not just reject faulty theology; let's embrace those who need Jesus.
David Shibley is president of Global Advance, a ministry that provides training and resources for thousands of pastors in developing nations."
No God is not on trial but we are. For declaring that God will do what is right but declaring that to be things we would normally think sound wrong, for taking a word like 'Holy' and co-opting it to overrule God's other characteristics as we would normally understand them.
The fact is most of this article seemed to be a repeated arguing of the same point, that only those who believe in Jesus are saved. It then tried to imply an obvious lack of such belief in most people in the world and an in this lifetime timetable in which to find it which no evidence seemed forthcoming for.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 08, 2015, 12:58:30 AM
Someone rang the doorbell this morning, and left a flyer. This gift came from some local Baptist church, and mentioned "hell." I think I may send it back with a printed copy of "Heaven, Yes - Hell, No." Got a laser printer now - so cheap to print. Benjamin Franklin would have been astounded, and for that matter, Gutenberg.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: CST on March 01, 2016, 08:04:08 PM
The fact is most of this article seemed to be a repeated arguing of the same point, that only those who believe in Jesus are saved. It then tried to imply an obvious lack of such belief in most people in the world and an in this lifetime timetable in which to find it which no evidence seemed forthcoming for.[/color]
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...absolutely.. :iagree:
There's really only one verse, I can think of.. maybe I've missed something :dontknow: that could seem to imply, once this life (time) is over "all hope is lost". And that is when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent, you will die in your sins".
Well, all that suggests to me, is - the 2nd resurrection.. those who died still in their sins, will rise still in their sins.. they arrive, so to speak-
DOA ("dead on
arrival").
But!! Surely(?) the day of review, when "the books are opened" and all are judged by what's written in the books (metaphor, I'm thinking likely, yet it's all 'written' in His awareness!). I'm just thinking Day of Judgment, must be a very long 'day' - indeed because of the timing of the ancient fall feasts - which in all likelihood prophecy His long 2nd advent, as the spring ones were fulfilled by His 1st advent..
I think this - trumpets, then 10 days later / 1000 years later - Judgment 'Day' or rather Day Of Atonement (DOA 4 the DOA) - then after 5 days / 500 years(?) - Tabernacles when all things are made new and God will now tabernacle with man.. He being "all in all"... Revelation 21:1-5(!!)
So to my mind, this suggests Judgment Day (surprise! Day Of Atonement, historically, Israel's collective day of repentance, weeping, and
forgiveness) will last somewhere around 500 years.. an intense review of all human history.. (not a happy story, but also the story of every life, how building on sand comes to well, disaster and calamity).
I believe, like the verse - those not believing will go to the lake of fire (washing, age-lasting) is not 'said' until the end of that long 'day' and by then - after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing a long 'day' of the review of all things.. who's not going to "
believe"? Maybe some few really hard cases!?
It was all the old pagan religions which believed in an after life and going to either a paradise or a place of the damned, depending on if you had done good or bad during your life..
If those who do not find faith during this life - or even never heard the gospel - are to perish, why resurrect them? to toss them away into a lake of unending torment?
The longer one disbelieves the theory/doctrine, the more ridiculous and unfounded it becomes.. I don't try to persuade folks though, not usually, unless led to, I guess, I just quote the verses (weave them in) which say it openly..
:Peace2: :smile: God bless!
Good post sister Marie :thumbsup:
Hi CST ,
I take comfort in knowing that even if many do not fully understand the work of God though Jesus Christ reconciling the world to Himself as UR
shares many of those concepts
The deceiver and deceived are His , The UR group has come to the conclusion that ALL IS OF GOD FOR GOD AND THOUGH GOD , and has put no stock in mankind's assumptions as well meaning as they might be .
GOD IS IN CONTROL , that pretty much sums up all the arguments for me .
God is pure Holy and does not change but sure does change us by Him working in us though His Word and Spirit of truth in Love [grace upon us all ]
This old as the hills manuscript in Job explains very well , that Job spoke what was right in the sight of God and for me I do agree with Jobs perspective in this day and time and has not changed mans wisdom of God is foolishness and it is only by the Holy Spirit teaching us that any of us have anything at all to hope in , It is Gods Wisdom that Light and knowledge that will save the world in Whom God sent His only begotten Son because He loved and IS LOVE .I do not doubt God but believe He will be all in all just as the scriptures proclaim .
Job 12 (NASB)
12 Then Job responded,
2 "Truly then you are the people,
And with you wisdom will die!
3 "But I have intelligence as well as you;
I am not inferior to you.
And who does not know such things as these?
4 "I am a joke to my friends,
The one who called on God and He answered him;
The just and blameless man is a joke.
5 "He who is at ease holds calamity in contempt,
As prepared for those whose feet slip.
6 "The tents of the destroyers prosper,
And those who provoke God are secure,
Whom God brings into their power.
7 "But now ask the beasts, and let them teach you;
And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you.
8 "Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you;
And let the fish of the sea declare to you.
9 "Who among all these does not know
That the hand of the Lord has done this,
10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing,
And the breath of all mankind?
11 "Does not the ear test words,
As the palate tastes its food?
12 "Wisdom is with aged men,
With long life is understanding.
13 "With Him are wisdom and might;
To Him belong counsel and understanding.
14 "Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt;
He imprisons a man, and there can be no release.
15 "Behold, He restrains the waters, and they dry up;
And He sends them out, and they inundate the earth.
16 "With Him are strength and sound wisdom,
The misled and the misleader belong to Him.
17 "He makes counselors walk barefoot
And makes fools of judges.
18 "He loosens the bond of kings
And binds their loins with a girdle.
19 "He makes priests walk barefoot
And overthrows the secure ones.
20 "He deprives the trusted ones of speech
And takes away the discernment of the elders.
21 "He pours contempt on nobles
And loosens the belt of the strong.
22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness
And brings the deep darkness into light.
23 "He makes the nations great, then destroys them;
He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
24 "He deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.
25 "They grope in darkness with no light,
And He makes them stagger like a drunken man.
But our faith and hope and love is in the LORD JESUS CHRIST THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD that Job fully knows now, as well :HeartThrob:
Quote from: marie glen on March 01, 2016, 10:37:02 PM
Quote from: CST on March 01, 2016, 08:04:08 PM
The fact is most of this article seemed to be a repeated arguing of the same point, that only those who believe in Jesus are saved. It then tried to imply an obvious lack of such belief in most people in the world and an in this lifetime timetable in which to find it which no evidence seemed forthcoming for.[/color]
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...absolutely.. :iagree:
There's really only one verse, I can think of.. maybe I've missed something :dontknow: that could seem to imply, once this life (time) is over "all hope is lost". And that is when Jesus told the pharisees "unless you repent, you will die in your sins".
Well, all that suggests to me, is - the 2nd resurrection.. those who died still in their sins, will rise still in their sins.. they arrive, so to speak-
DOA ("dead on arrival").
But!! Surely(?) the day of review, when "the books are opened" and all are judged by what's written in the books (metaphor, I'm thinking likely, yet it's all 'written' in His awareness!). I'm just thinking Day of Judgment, must be a very long 'day' - indeed because of the timing of the ancient fall feasts - which in all likelihood prophecy His long 2nd advent, as the spring ones were fulfilled by His 1st advent..
I think this - trumpets, then 10 days later / 1000 years later - Judgment 'Day' or rather Day Of Atonement (DOA 4 the DOA) - then after 5 days / 500 years(?) - Tabernacles when all things are made new and God will now tabernacle with man.. He being "all in all"... Revelation 21:1-5(!!)
So to my mind, this suggests Judgment Day (surprise! Day Of Atonement, historically, Israel's collective day of repentance, weeping, and forgiveness) will last somewhere around 500 years.. an intense review of all human history.. (not a happy story, but also the story of every life, how building on sand comes to well, disaster and calamity).
I believe, like the verse - those not believing will go to the lake of fire (washing, age-lasting) is not 'said' until the end of that long 'day' and by then - after experiencing being resurrected and witnessing a long 'day' of the review of all things.. who's not going to "believe"? Maybe some few really hard cases!?
It was all the old pagan religions which believed in an after life and going to either a paradise or a place of the damned, depending on if you had done good or bad during your life..
If those who do not find faith during this life - or even never heard the gospel - are to perish, why resurrect them? to toss them away into a lake of unending torment?
The longer one disbelieves the theory/doctrine, the more ridiculous and unfounded it becomes.. I don't try to persuade folks though, not usually, unless led to, I guess, I just quote the verses (weave them in) which say it openly..
:Peace2: :smile: God bless!
Indeed, I'm not sure if this I'm entirely in agreement with everything you say here but certainly it seems the judgement is going to take a very long time, it's hard to imagine all the lives of everyone who's ever walked the Earth could be reviewed in 24 hours. At the same time that's clearly not the exclusive use of the word 'day' in the Bible. It's hard to be sure how this will work or how metaphorical the Revelation is being but I suspect the judgement will stop for nightfall. So we could be looking at one long day that has a time span of 500 years. I feel not knowing how time will work or not work in the age to come (though I can't really imagine it being much different) makes it hard to discuss such details with certainty. But we, again, we can agree it feels like something that will take a very long time.
On the matter of why resurrect people just to throw them into the lake of fire. Earlier in the thread as I recall, you mentioned you were unconvinced by the idea that justice must be seen to be done.
As I understand the thinking behind this is that in the Old Testament particularly there are a lot of complaints from people to God about the fact they've seen God's enemies to horrible things and then live, so far as they can see (I try not to ascribe to others assumptions about this) really happy lives and die peacefully in their beds. God promised to address this.
Also in this day and age (perhaps more in stories than reality but it happens in reality too) people commit suicide to try and escape justice. Well, so the understand goes, God is justice and He cannot allow this. He cannot allow people even by dying to escape from what they deserve be the good or ill. Don't worry about my belief in UR here I also believe God's justice does not allow people to oppose Him forever in everlasting torment or annihilation either.
By the same order as above some people commit suicide through pain, fear or sorrow. Now here's the thing I don't believe people wake up at the the resurrection with whatever torments that led them to kill themselves gone. And until they can be removed they can't find their way into heaven. Of course know one needs to torment them in Hell either they're tormenting themselves enough already, I suspect they still need to work through that but yes I imagine what they learn at judgement might well help.
Ultimately though I don't believe people wake up at the judgement especially different to what they were when they died. However odd it would be to resurrect people solely to condemn them to the lake of fire it would be odder still if they were raised and there was no or little continuity between the people that are being judged and the things they have been judged for. That really would be pointless.
But I'm certainly open to the sort growth you argue for I can just see a few obstacles.
Although as you say the story of human history is not a happy story but it may not be as sad as current experience would suggest. After all many people seem to live reasonably happy lives and often stories don't seem happy ones until you get to the end.
Now on the matter of why ET proponents believe that we only have this lifetime to repent. I think they are interpreting (badly) from when Jesus says to Thomas "you have believed because you have seen, blessed is he who believes and has not seen" (or similar.)
The point is that they've come to believe in faith in the modern sense (as I understand) and thus played into the hands of the humanists, materialists and empiricists (particularly the last group) believing that faith means believing in anything and everything without any evidence for it. Faith has become a polite word for credulity. The idea is that because they think that faith is something you choose not something that chooses you, you must choose belief in this lifetime because when you awake in the next one you will see and the moment for faith will have passed.
As far as know that's not primarily what faith is, if it was Thomas would be domed as would anyone else who accepted Jesus on account of some miracle that he did. Remember faith is fidelity, it's trust. The point is that God has made us promises but we can't ever know if He'll deliver them until He delivers them. Because that's you future and there's know way we can be shown that. We have faith based the the pledges He's given us in the past but they can't prove conclusively He'll deliver on them only waiting can do that. And so we wait in faith.
Such is the marriage metaphor because marriage is the same, the bride and groom make vows to each other trust each other to keep them never being able to prove that they finally will. That's faith and this new rationalized concept of it is ruining it.
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2016, 02:02:30 PM
Good post sister Marie :thumbsup:
Hi CST ,
I take comfort in knowing that even if many do not fully understand the work of God though Jesus Christ reconciling the world to Himself as UR
shares many of those concepts
The deceiver and deceived are His , The UR group has come to the conclusion that ALL IS OF GOD FOR GOD AND THOUGH GOD , and has put no stock in mankind's assumptions as well meaning as they might be .
GOD IS IN CONTROL , that pretty much sums up all the arguments for me .
God is pure Holy and does not change but sure does change us by Him working in us though His Word and Spirit of truth in Love [grace upon us all ]
This old as the hills manuscript in Job explains very well , that Job spoke what was right in the sight of God and for me I do agree with Jobs perspective in this day and time and has not changed mans wisdom of God is foolishness and it is only by the Holy Spirit teaching us that any of us have anything at all to hope in , It is Gods Wisdom that Light and knowledge that will save the world in Whom God sent His only begotten Son because He loved and IS LOVE .I do not doubt God but believe He will be all in all just as the scriptures proclaim .
Job 12 (NASB)
12 Then Job responded,
2 "Truly then you are the people,
And with you wisdom will die!
3 "But I have intelligence as well as you;
I am not inferior to you.
And who does not know such things as these?
4 "I am a joke to my friends,
The one who called on God and He answered him;
The just and blameless man is a joke.
5 "He who is at ease holds calamity in contempt,
As prepared for those whose feet slip.
6 "The tents of the destroyers prosper,
And those who provoke God are secure,
Whom God brings into their power.
7 "But now ask the beasts, and let them teach you;
And the birds of the heavens, and let them tell you.
8 "Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you;
And let the fish of the sea declare to you.
9 "Who among all these does not know
That the hand of the Lord has done this,
10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing,
And the breath of all mankind?
11 "Does not the ear test words,
As the palate tastes its food?
12 "Wisdom is with aged men,
With long life is understanding.
13 "With Him are wisdom and might;
To Him belong counsel and understanding.
14 "Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt;
He imprisons a man, and there can be no release.
15 "Behold, He restrains the waters, and they dry up;
And He sends them out, and they inundate the earth.
16 "With Him are strength and sound wisdom,
The misled and the misleader belong to Him.
17 "He makes counselors walk barefoot
And makes fools of judges.
18 "He loosens the bond of kings
And binds their loins with a girdle.
19 "He makes priests walk barefoot
And overthrows the secure ones.
20 "He deprives the trusted ones of speech
And takes away the discernment of the elders.
21 "He pours contempt on nobles
And loosens the belt of the strong.
22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness
And brings the deep darkness into light.
23 "He makes the nations great, then destroys them;
He enlarges the nations, then leads them away.
24 "He deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.
25 "They grope in darkness with no light,
And He makes them stagger like a drunken man.
But our faith and hope and love is in the LORD JESUS CHRIST THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD that Job fully knows now, as well :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2016, 02:02:30 PM
Thanks very much I take it you are saying that we're basically in agreement on the content of my rather long post and most of the UR church agrees too.
I'm struggling to be sure especially as I'm a bit poor of understanding Job. Some quotes in there make me quite uncomfortable.
The idea of us changing also alarms me a little because I'm not sure which bits of us it refers too. It worries me for reasons of continuity that I mentioned to Marie above.
Quote from: CST on March 02, 2016, 03:29:37 PM
And so we wait in faith.
:goodpost: you know, I very much agree.. the despots through history.. I hope they don't get off easy! (I do tend to forget about them at times.. and think of the every day people.. and the victims of oppressors.. And I think it's a good thing for folks who have suffered under someone doing evil, to be able to think of judgment day as a day of.. balancing the scales.. I do think there will be a lot of darkness and gnashing of teeth.. and a lot of weeping.. (even from the 'elect' and all watchers/i.e,all of us) on that day.. absolutely..
and think of all the unresolved issues.. truth is an iron rod.. (sometimes i find myself thinking perhaps the lof is concurrent with day of judgment, that the elect go through the lof in this life, unless they go wayward then get a share during judgment day, but there's other lof's too? the one of armegeddon? the one at the 'end' of the millenium? Rev 20:7-10,-but i believe the false prophet and beast of this verse are not persons.. :icon_jokercolor: :sigh: :Peace2: straying into prophecy :laughing7: )
CST
Quote
Thanks very much I take it you are saying that we're basically in agreement on the content of my rather long post and most of the UR church agrees too.
I'm struggling to be sure especially as I'm a bit poor of understanding Job. Some quotes in there make me quite uncomfortable.
The idea of us changing also alarms me a little because I'm not sure which bits of us it refers too. It worries me for reasons of continuity that I mentioned to Marie above.
Hi CST ,
Thank you for your comment...
The only quotes to not put any stock in Job ,is his friends they do
NOT speak what is right about God ....
But we know the misled and the misleading are still Gods to deal with ..
You are being honest and clear :thumbsup: I hope to be as well . :gimmefive:
I do believe it is all perspective and how we see , to be honest when I wanted to know about God and His will and see His face , I could not see anything except there is some mysterious God far away and am waiting here in the darkness for Him , that little mustard seed of faith was it !
I found it all so overwhelming , and when I heard this or that about Him , I questioned everything and everyone ...
But no settling it deep within , Till the Lord come and made a way , I hope this helps you as it has me to understand a few things that sound bizarre
All my entire life till the Lord come was just me outside looking in and it was darkly and obscure and an entirely different language that was spiritual and my own carnal mind could never just '' believe '' ...
Till the Lord started showing me and I begin asking Him to help me change ''understand '' what He means and what is this Lord ?
These child like questions to my teacher for answers
We are to eat HIS BODY and drink His blood to have life in us , this made no sense to me , How do I do this Lord ?
We are eating the WORD / BIBLE / Jesus Christ is the word made flesh we are consuming everything within it and it is coming out of us , this is how we can relate to every name in the book , when you see yourself in those examples and recognize the outcome , you can see where you are at and we are to be JUST LIKE JESUS CHRIST whom was everything a servant and Son of God and Son of man and King of Israel etc , shepherd , when Peter was told to feed His lambs , Peter become a shepherd watching over the flock and feeding them the WORD OF GOD ,
many places we can see Jesus Christ and when you see Jesus Christ you can see God , the pure in heart shall see God ,
Jesus Christ is the pure heart whom loves His Father and all mankind even when they were enemies , He died for us .
So when we read it at first the Word is dead in us , the carnal mind is death and a trap , and becomes alive in us though the Spirit of Life , and this two edged Sword'' WORD '' with the Holy Spirit and fire begin to divide us . death and life , above and below , left and right , sheep and goats etc ..
Under the law and knowledge of sin it puts us to death as in Adam all die and all mouths will be stopped , no bragging of what the flesh did to experience God .
God is a consuming fire His Word is Law and judges us all but in Christ we are made alive and this is by the Holy Spirit and word living in us jars of clay .
I know when we taste the Lord and know He is good you will begin to see these scriptures differently .
We are like little book worms eating up the book of the dead and the living and consuming it in our thoughts and remembering and applying it ,
as we are guided by the Holy works of FATHER and the SON this fire kindled making Light and destroying the wicked works of old .
Knowing this may sound strange to you , but we are eating the Word of Life to have life in us also .
Can we remember before the Lord got a hold of us and the bible was something so foreign when you opened it up , it did not make any sense all by itself
and like puzzle pieces trying to make them fit in a wrong place , just did not look right to you ?
For me, I know the Lord, put that burning desire in me to look for answers , seek , knock and ask for more and more Holy Spirit truth , His word it is truth and the truth sets us free from that binding of death within us .
Quote from: marie glen on March 02, 2016, 04:00:14 PM
Quote from: CST on March 02, 2016, 03:29:37 PM
And so we wait in faith.
:goodpost: you know, I very much agree.. the despots through history.. I hope they don't get off easy! (I do tend to forget about them at times.. and think of the every day people.. and the victims of oppressors.. And I think it's a good thing for folks who have suffered under someone doing evil, to be able to think of judgment day as a day of.. balancing the scales.. I do think there will be a lot of darkness and gnashing of teeth.. and a lot of weeping.. (even from the 'elect' and all watchers/i.e,all of us) on that day.. absolutely..
and think of all the unresolved issues.. truth is an iron rod.. (sometimes i find myself thinking perhaps the lof is concurrent with day of judgment, that the elect go through the lof in this life, unless they go wayward then get a share during judgment day, but there's other lof's too? the one of armegeddon? the one at the 'end' of the millenium? Rev 20:7-10,-but i believe the false prophet and beast of this verse are not persons.. :icon_jokercolor: :sigh: :Peace2: straying into prophecy :laughing7: )
Thanks, I wasn't necessarily thinking of despots and tyrants I was thinking of people in the neighbourhood who just seem unpleasant and seem to die at peace. Of cause this, it needs to remembered, it just perception often caused by the log in out eye. We go through life and mainly we encounter people who we might not cross paths with for very long or some for much longer and we hope the'll get an easy ride which others we see differently and hope will get what we have decided they deserve. This is not God's way. There is a very palpable trap in this that's very hard not to fall intyo but we need to try. Gentle chastisement and teasing every time if possible.
I have a hard time believe the Beast from the sea to actually be a person or persons the false prophet which I think but can't remember for sure, is identified with the Beast from the earth is harder for be not to see as at least embodied in a person for a time. Though that partially to do with things about the Beast I understand from my interpretation of Revelation.
Quote from: rosered on March 02, 2016, 05:38:01 PM
CSTQuote
Thanks very much I take it you are saying that we're basically in agreement on the content of my rather long post and most of the UR church agrees too.
I'm struggling to be sure especially as I'm a bit poor of understanding Job. Some quotes in there make me quite uncomfortable.
The idea of us changing also alarms me a little because I'm not sure which bits of us it refers too. It worries me for reasons of continuity that I mentioned to Marie above.
Hi CST ,
Thank you for your comment...
The only quotes to not put any stock in Job ,is his friends they do NOT speak what is right about God ....
But we know the misled and the misleading are still Gods to deal with ..
You are being honest and clear :thumbsup: I hope to be as well . :gimmefive:
I do believe it is all perspective and how we see , to be honest when I wanted to know about God and His will and see His face , I could not see anything except there is some mysterious God far away and am waiting here in the darkness for Him , that little mustard seed of faith was it !
I found it all so overwhelming , and when I heard this or that about Him , I questioned everything and everyone ...
But no settling it deep within , Till the Lord come and made a way , I hope this helps you as it has me to understand a few things that sound bizarre
All my entire life till the Lord come was just me outside looking in and it was darkly and obscure and an entirely different language that was spiritual and my own carnal mind could never just " believe " ...
Till the Lord started showing me and I begin asking Him to help me change "understand " what He means and what is this Lord ?
These child like questions to my teacher for answers
We are to eat HIS BODY and drink His blood to have life in us , this made no sense to me , How do I do this Lord ?
We are eating the WORD / BIBLE / Jesus Christ is the word made flesh we are consuming everything within it and it is coming out of us , this is how we can relate to every name in the book , when you see yourself in those examples and recognize the outcome , you can see where you are at and we are to be JUST LIKE JESUS CHRIST whom was everything a servant and Son of God and Son of man and King of Israel etc , shepherd , when Peter was told to feed His lambs , Peter become a shepherd watching over the flock and feeding them the WORD OF GOD ,
many places we can see Jesus Christ and when you see Jesus Christ you can see God , the pure in heart shall see God ,
Jesus Christ is the pure heart whom loves His Father and all mankind even when they were enemies , He died for us .
So when we read it at first the Word is dead in us , the carnal mind is death and a trap , and becomes alive in us though the Spirit of Life , and this two edged Sword" WORD " with the Holy Spirit and fire begin to divide us . death and life , above and below , left and right , sheep and goats etc ..
Under the law and knowledge of sin it puts us to death as in Adam all die and all mouths will be stopped , no bragging of what the flesh did to experience God .
God is a consuming fire His Word is Law and judges us all but in Christ we are made alive and this is by the Holy Spirit and word living in us jars of clay .
I know when we taste the Lord and know He is good you will begin to see these scriptures differently .
We are like little book worms eating up the book of the dead and the living and consuming it in our thoughts and remembering and applying it ,
as we are guided by the Holy works of FATHER and the SON this fire kindled making Light and destroying the wicked works of old .
Knowing this may sound strange to you , but we are eating the Word of Life to have life in us also .
Can we remember before the Lord got a hold of us and the bible was something so foreign when you opened it up , it did not make any sense all by itself
and like puzzle pieces trying to make them fit in a wrong place , just did not look right to you ?
For me, I know the Lord, put that burning desire in me to look for answers , seek , knock and ask for more and more Holy Spirit truth , His word it is truth and the truth sets us free from that binding of death within us .
You seem to have a better relationship with the LORD there than I feel I do or ever expect to in the near future. I pray and i'm not sure whether I get answers of not, I can't test them because I don't know what measure to use. At the same time I think it terribly implausible that our very generous God isn't answering many of my requests even if I'm not sure I can feel I'm moving forward with what either I would want or He would want, if I thought I was doing either I'd like to think it would be helpful.
When I talked about quotes in Job I was referring entirely to some of the lines in the passage you provided (I can't remember much else at this time) which it seems pretty clear are all Job.
He says things like, "Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt; He imprisons a man and there can be no release." the Damanation camp love these sort of lines because they seem to support there cause. Obviously God has the power to reverse both actions but generally speaking why would He? That would make the original act seem reckless. It's easy to claim that Job is right, his words might be but I'm not sure his attidue is. The content of this speech seems a lot like the speech in Bruce Almighty which includes such lines as Bruce comparing God to a kid with a magnifying glass
As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.
I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.
The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.
I think when it says "When God imprisons a man there can be no release" it just means you aint gonna break out, you r stayin till you hav "paid the last penny"...
When it says where "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched", it means, "You ain't gettin relief until God gets at what He is after in you" ...
:2c:
Wow , had missed this response ! :doh: Sorry Chris
Quote from: eaglesway on April 22, 2016, 06:06:56 PM
I think when it says "When God imprisons a man there can be no release" it just means you aint gonna break out, you r stayin till you hav "paid the last penny"...
When it says where "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched", it means, "You ain't gettin relief until God gets at what He is after in you" ...
:2c:
AMEN!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
and the scriptures that helps me also in the Old testament when God was dealing with the flesh /carnal man , by His Spirit and Word of truth
them hardships and experiences changed them all to become more spiritually aware and are found faithful though the test ,
the hour of trial that shall come upon the whole world to test them , I do believe we have many examples already to glean from and their end results
Ezek 14 even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
New Living Translation
Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign LORD.
English Standard Version
even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD.
New American Standard Bible
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.
[/quote]
As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.
I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.
The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.
[/quote]
I have problems with some stuff in the Bible too...Origin believed there were 2, or 3 ?, layers to each Bible passage..the literal, the allegorical, and...oh, I forget the 3rd..anyway, reading some of this 'difficult' stuff in a allegorical way helps me somewhat.I guess when we get to the next life alot of these things will be clearer.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Our morality is very much affected by our survival instinct. Since the beginning, God has elevated the testimony of His righteousness above life and death. Abel died for the testimony. Isaac was taken to the point of death for the testimony that Abraham was the friend of God- willing to do what God Himself was bound to do in order to set us free.
All this is about the revelation of the divine nature. The purpose of creation is that God is bringing the whole creation into total freedom. This is eternal life and it is through the union of a persons heart with God that it flows. God ordained from the beginning that he would redeem the creation from within the creation by the witness of those who represent Him.
The struggle we are in has been going on from the beginning. Cain versus Abel. Noah versus the world that fell into horrendous evil in his day. The Tower of Babel. Pharoah and Moses.
Job stood in his generation as a witness.
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
Jesus said, "If any man would be my disciple he must take up his cross and come follow me"
If we suffer with Him we will reign in life with Him.
This offends many, and it always has, and it always will.
Job bore witness. He suffered as a servant of God. He received a deeper revelation in return for his suffering and that means a greater witness- the most wonderful prize of all.
All flesh is as grass. The flower fades, the grass withers. The wind comes and takes it away.
Quote
As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.
I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.
The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.
I have problems with some stuff in the Bible too...Origin believed there were 2, or 3 ?, layers to each Bible passage..the literal, the allegorical, and...oh, I forget the 3rd..anyway, reading some of this 'difficult' stuff in a allegorical way helps me somewhat.I guess when we get to the next life alot of these things will be clearer.
Yes, I think Origen was giving the right pointers. I believe that the Bible contains all truth even though it is not complete in records. However, I do not believe the entire Old Testament is literal truth but sometimes legendary. This is unthinkable by many I know, and yet it is a beautiful truth in my opinion, something worthy of the all-seeing and all-knowing God of all, who uses humanity to work out His Plan, permitting them to grow spiritually from stage to stage, step by step - and allowing for their inevitable mistakes by breathing His Spirit into the collection.
We hear many apologists who claim that their concept of God is quite right to carry out abhorrent acts against humanity, rationalising it all with the conclusion that it shows how great is the God of their understanding in the end. If it is needed to be that way for people because no other way can be acceptable, then so be it – as long as there is joy in Heaven at the repentance of one child.
However, I do not follow the same lines of thought personally. While I do agree that a wayward, wicked, ignorant and sinful people needed a strong hand and a mighty Ruler figure as their God in order to prevent them from heaping up inevitable consequence after consequence against themselves, I believe that some of the worst stories only have a grain of truth at their core and what has been built up around that grain is centuries of legend, handed down mouth to mouth until it was written down, and when it was written down sometimes even that writing was lost and had to be remembered giving rise to the introduction of human error, until another opportunity came to have it written down.
This is how I generally accept the compilation of the Old Testament, although it is only presented to give the gist of the way the records were compiled and may not be pedantically accurate.
There are legends of so distant of origin that by the time they were compiled in the days of Solomon they were fragmented. What incomplete assortments that were available to Ezra were collected by the scribe. There can be seen, if one is open to unbiased analysis free from deeply ingrained traditional interpretation, slight differences (e.g. Elohim and Jehovah appear to be from different sources) in the earlier Genesis which contains speculative legends in my opinion – but please note, I do not say they do not provide truth due to the Breath of God which He has put into the pages of the Holy Book.
I believe that the first five books of the currently compiled Bible are seeded with fact and are a collection of legends and ancient traditions which were passed on by word of mouth until the chief scribe Ezra made a concerted effort with his scribes to ensure they were not lost by having them recorded. Records which included collections from the times of the Judges, of Solomon and also of Saul's time.
Some of the stories based around Noah and Abraham exist in a type of substantive form elsewhere which indicates a strong likelihood of their legendary existence before being written down. Poems and stories of the earth flooding were around many hundreds of years before the great leader Noah had the legend enshrined around him.
I also believe that it is quite possible that the only exact words of Moses which were recorded were those of the law as it was written down and therefore remained unaltered by time and man – and then there is the manner in which Moses the meditator received these laws and the input of his own personality and conditioning to consider, which is another subject. Ezra's efforts were re-recorded by Haggai and Zachariah, and Malachi was the last to complete the compilation. Melchizedek was the start of the true inspiration that was to give rise to the seed Spirit-truth to be recorded.
This is my opinion, of course, and to say that God "spoke" every single word "because He is God" being proof of its literal exactness, is to deny that God can cause the preservation of these sacred records in another way, ensuring the validity of the collection of records which man has called the Bible. So while many people need every word to be absolute truth in a literal sense in order to maintain his or her consistent theology, this does not mean that others cannot receive and understand God's truth in another form not so literal.
I believe that a letter is of little value in and of itself, unless it is imbued with inspiration from God's Spirit, that is, Divine Spirit Power. The Spirit Power, in its Divine potency, then imputes into that letter spiritual truths which are conveyed to the mind of the reader or hearer. This is how a Biblical story can have become legendary around the core literal event, and yet still be God's truth in the true and powerful spiritual sense.
In seeing it in this way, which I personally believe is the correct way, the God who is Love is raised up higher in the minds of the worshipper and also in humanity which has not been able to morally accept atrocities attributed to its God - quite rightly in my opinion. So as I have said, the Bible contains the truth and that truth is elevated by considering the method of its manifestation.
The spiritual riches in the Old Testament are an unending stream of wonderful inspiration and revelation, it is a source of unlimited wisdom and direction – and in saying this I am referring to the spiritual understanding held within the deeper meanings of its stories, not in its literal interpretation which, in my opinion, is often not the way it happened.
I think that there comes a time when a child of God is presented, either here or Hereafter, with a choice – have faith in a more loving God and learn to choose yourself what is highest in Love – a call from Christ to come up higher so that He may give of His loving gifts.
Quote from: lastpost on April 23, 2016, 10:14:15 AM
Yes, I think Origen was giving the right pointers. I believe that the Bible contains all truth even though it is not complete in records. However, I do not believe the entire Old Testament is literal truth but sometimes legendary.
I don't, for the most part, disagree with that.. stories were passed down through generations... (all lands have a handed down flood account, carried I believe from the separating at Babel Tower. Some accounts are rather wild, as they will be, by being handed down through humans. with cyclops or the like.. (which flood I believe accounts for some of man's dating of the earth conclusions).
Of course I believe nothing is impossible to God our Father.. making the sun standstill for a day.. creating the universe and life with no death until tresspass.. (Imperfection/sin-"missing the mark" as opposed to God/Life/Perfection - I see no reason for millions, or billions of years for God to accomplish it.. and life coming through endless series of death.. I've studied the theory of time as their god, and it doesn't jive)
The story of Job or Jonah in the belly of the whale.. doesn't matter to me if factual or handed down versions of something slightly less..
Of course we have archaeology which shows the accounts of the wars - destroy those baby burners! don't leave one for seed, which of course they did leave some, and have struggled and suffered over the centuries because of it and still are.. the carrying off to Assyria and Babylon and then from the united Assyria/Babylon empire under Cyrus, their "going home"
(most judgment I think of as results and consequences)
Of course, the New Testament accounts I do believe are pure fact.. the virgin birth ...not as immaculate of a conception as man's theory of "in the beginning there was nothing, it exploded and became everything" :laughing7: the raising of Lazarus... etc, etc.
Even the book of revelation, fact expressed in symbols etc..
Geneologies and the like, I think likely came from the records of men, so discrepancies are not to be unexpected...
:Peace2: :smile:
Quote from: rosered on April 22, 2016, 08:01:26 PM
Wow , had missed this response ! :doh: Sorry Chris
Quote from: eaglesway on April 22, 2016, 06:06:56 PM
I think when it says "When God imprisons a man there can be no release" it just means you aint gonna break out, you r stayin till you hav "paid the last penny"...
When it says where "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched", it means, "You ain't gettin relief until God gets at what He is after in you" ...
:2c:
AMEN!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
and the scriptures that helps me also in the Old testament when God was dealing with the flesh /carnal man , by His Spirit and Word of truth
them hardships and experiences changed them all to become more spiritually aware and are found faithful though the test ,
the hour of trial that shall come upon the whole world to test them , I do believe we have many examples already to glean from and their end results
Ezek 14 even if these three men--Noah, Daniel and Job--were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.
New Living Translation
Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign LORD.
English Standard Version
even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD.
New American Standard Bible
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves," declares the Lord GOD.
Thanks, Rose. I just thought I'd gotten too deep or petulant or something. Or else you'd found more interesting stuff to discuss.
Quote from: darryl on April 23, 2016, 03:44:27 AM
As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.
I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.
The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.
[/quote]
I have problems with some stuff in the Bible too...Origin believed there were 2, or 3 ?, layers to each Bible passage..the literal, the allegorical, and...oh, I forget the 3rd..anyway, reading some of this 'difficult' stuff in a allegorical way helps me somewhat.I guess when we get to the next life alot of these things will be clearer.
[/quote]
Ultimately I believe medieval theology decided there were four layers but I can't remember what they were either. I'm not sure how any of them would make me think the basic story of Job sounds any better. Four layers of meaning doesn't change the narrative or bring Job's original children back from the dead.
But I agree we'll have to wait for time to work out our answers.
Quote from: lastpost on April 23, 2016, 10:14:15 AM
Quote
As I said I have a problem with The Book Of Job. Remember it opens with God, apparently to prove a point, allowing "Satan" to slay all Job's son's and daughters. And then allow him to make Job rather sick. All to demonstrate Job's 'righteousness' which can only be relative.
I can't help finding this morally dubious and I don't see how God boasting about how powerful He is makes it OK. And the end of the story God gives Job new children and possessions but the old ones are still dead in Sheol, we suppose and apparently this doesn't matter.
The moral position here makes me very uncomfortable.
I have problems with some stuff in the Bible too...Origin believed there were 2, or 3 ?, layers to each Bible passage..the literal, the allegorical, and...oh, I forget the 3rd..anyway, reading some of this 'difficult' stuff in a allegorical way helps me somewhat.I guess when we get to the next life alot of these things will be clearer.
Yes, I think Origen was giving the right pointers. I believe that the Bible contains all truth even though it is not complete in records. However, I do not believe the entire Old Testament is literal truth but sometimes legendary. This is unthinkable by many I know, and yet it is a beautiful truth in my opinion, something worthy of the all-seeing and all-knowing God of all, who uses humanity to work out His Plan, permitting them to grow spiritually from stage to stage, step by step - and allowing for their inevitable mistakes by breathing His Spirit into the collection.
We hear many apologists who claim that their concept of God is quite right to carry out abhorrent acts against humanity, rationalising it all with the conclusion that it shows how great is the God of their understanding in the end. If it is needed to be that way for people because no other way can be acceptable, then so be it – as long as there is joy in Heaven at the repentance of one child.
However, I do not follow the same lines of thought personally. While I do agree that a wayward, wicked, ignorant and sinful people needed a strong hand and a mighty Ruler figure as their God in order to prevent them from heaping up inevitable consequence after consequence against themselves, I believe that some of the worst stories only have a grain of truth at their core and what has been built up around that grain is centuries of legend, handed down mouth to mouth until it was written down, and when it was written down sometimes even that writing was lost and had to be remembered giving rise to the introduction of human error, until another opportunity came to have it written down.
This is how I generally accept the compilation of the Old Testament, although it is only presented to give the gist of the way the records were compiled and may not be pedantically accurate.
There are legends of so distant of origin that by the time they were compiled in the days of Solomon they were fragmented. What incomplete assortments that were available to Ezra were collected by the scribe. There can be seen, if one is open to unbiased analysis free from deeply ingrained traditional interpretation, slight differences (e.g. Elohim and Jehovah appear to be from different sources) in the earlier Genesis which contains speculative legends in my opinion – but please note, I do not say they do not provide truth due to the Breath of God which He has put into the pages of the Holy Book.
I believe that the first five books of the currently compiled Bible are seeded with fact and are a collection of legends and ancient traditions which were passed on by word of mouth until the chief scribe Ezra made a concerted effort with his scribes to ensure they were not lost by having them recorded. Records which included collections from the times of the Judges, of Solomon and also of Saul's time.
Some of the stories based around Noah and Abraham exist in a type of substantive form elsewhere which indicates a strong likelihood of their legendary existence before being written down. Poems and stories of the earth flooding were around many hundreds of years before the great leader Noah had the legend enshrined around him.
I also believe that it is quite possible that the only exact words of Moses which were recorded were those of the law as it was written down and therefore remained unaltered by time and man – and then there is the manner in which Moses the meditator received these laws and the input of his own personality and conditioning to consider, which is another subject. Ezra's efforts were re-recorded by Haggai and Zachariah, and Malachi was the last to complete the compilation. Melchizedek was the start of the true inspiration that was to give rise to the seed Spirit-truth to be recorded.
This is my opinion, of course, and to say that God "spoke" every single word "because He is God" being proof of its literal exactness, is to deny that God can cause the preservation of these sacred records in another way, ensuring the validity of the collection of records which man has called the Bible. So while many people need every word to be absolute truth in a literal sense in order to maintain his or her consistent theology, this does not mean that others cannot receive and understand God's truth in another form not so literal.
I believe that a letter is of little value in and of itself, unless it is imbued with inspiration from God's Spirit, that is, Divine Spirit Power. The Spirit Power, in its Divine potency, then imputes into that letter spiritual truths which are conveyed to the mind of the reader or hearer. This is how a Biblical story can have become legendary around the core literal event, and yet still be God's truth in the true and powerful spiritual sense.
In seeing it in this way, which I personally believe is the correct way, the God who is Love is raised up higher in the minds of the worshipper and also in humanity which has not been able to morally accept atrocities attributed to its God - quite rightly in my opinion. So as I have said, the Bible contains the truth and that truth is elevated by considering the method of its manifestation.
The spiritual riches in the Old Testament are an unending stream of wonderful inspiration and revelation, it is a source of unlimited wisdom and direction – and in saying this I am referring to the spiritual understanding held within the deeper meanings of its stories, not in its literal interpretation which, in my opinion, is often not the way it happened.
I think that there comes a time when a child of God is presented, either here or Hereafter, with a choice – have faith in a more loving God and learn to choose yourself what is highest in Love – a call from Christ to come up higher so that He may give of His loving gifts.
Agrees in many senses and yet differs in others. I agree that much of the Old Testament contains tales that are allegorical and not literal histories at the same time there are several stories I don't know how to read allegorically without loosing the meaning of the text.
First of all, Job. Job is certainly easy to read as an allegory from beginning to end, but even reading it as a legend doesn't change the rather cavalier way it presents God. God doesn't become a better character in the book of Job if I read it as an allegory.
I see you alluding to the Documentary Hypothesis there. I've studied that, it's fascinating although I read it different and there are ways, if you understand it, that the 'sources' can be folded back together again and be shown to be written by Moses however allegorical the content. I hold Eden as allegorical, Cain and Abel as probably allegorical but not certainly, and then we reach the flood narrative. I have a problem with that, I really don't want to see that as anything other then allegorical either especially as there are lots of historical difficulties with taking it literally but I have a problem. The Eden story attempts to teach that all the human's of the world can be traced to the same source, which is fine. But the Flood narrative wants us to believe that all the nations (including the Egyptians) that figure in the narrative of the Bible can be traced back to Noah. This isn't true apparently the Egyptians can be traced back years through an unbroken history that would pass through the flood had it occurred.
Admittedly, I find that a bit suspicious. But I accept it at present and don't know what to do with an apparently irreconciable claim that all the nations in the Bible (I can less about the wider world) were descended from Noah.
Also, according to archaeology, all those nations that Israel invaded and slaughtered? No evidence to support it. Which is great for morality but bad for biblical apologists.
Thank goodness UR assures us that God will save all the people who ever lived. Just not sure what will happen if it turns out those people don't include the likes of Noah, Abraham and Moses owing to them being fictional. That's a confusing concept.
Some Christians don't like Rob Bell's teachings because he is super liberal in his theology. I read and enjoy his stuff but I know some don't. He has an online blog series called "what is the bible" that you can Google if you are interested.
He dissects the bible but over and over in the series he comes back to the idea that the bible was written by man and has to first and foremost be seen through this lens. Imperfect man trying to explain what they saw, heard, or what was passed down to them. But in the same breath, Rob says that doesn't discount be divine element of the bible. God meets us where we are. Then he transforms us to something higher and closer to Himself, through the bible. God is on every page but man has written the bible, so you are seeing God through man. It is somewhat of a paradox.
I believe spiritually viewing the bible can unite these two seemingly opposing views.
I do believe the bible is the story of God reaching out to man and man reaching out to God. It has spiritual truths throughout. Paul tells us of God's ultimate plan for all. Genesis is the story of how God is creating us. The gospels tell of Jesus walking among us and telling us how to live our lives in the best possible way. They tell of his amazing and earth shattering ministry and death.
I once read that Jesus did not come to save us from and angry God, but to save us from the idea that God is an angry God.
He is the face of God. Merciful, forgiving, loving, saving.
I felt some despair this morning so I decided after some self-defeating thoughts swimming around in my head, I would get quiet and meditate on God's love. I couldn't feel it at the time and I was feeling somewhat stubborn and self-righteous about some things but also wanted to reach out and connect with God so He could save me from myself.
I didn't intend to, but I ended up seeing a vision of Jesus on the cross and felt tears in my eyes.
The old sound bite of "Jesus died to save us from our sins" I believe to be true but in a different way than most. I believe the cross shows us how to live our lives. The cross shows us God's true nature. God is not an angry God. He demands mercy not sacrifice. Jesus did not sacrifice himself for God but instead he did it for us, as an example, so that we should sacrifice ourselves for those around us even when they don't deserve it. Loving and forgiving even when they don't deserve it. Doing so gently and with love. Not resisting. This is how we show God's love and how God saves us and how we serve each other. Jesus showed us how to live. I wish I were better at following his example.
I'm not saying the above is the ultimate truth, just my own experience and thoughts that I wanted to share. I hope it helps. It's my intention to help and to grow closer to God myself.
Oh I do not doubt that there were great leaders whom we call Noah and Abraham with the seed-core of truth at the heart of their stories, what I was saying is that even during their own lifetimes there will have been the beginnings of legends being built around them bolstered by and drawn from already existing legends both local and foreign. The good news is that because of the vibrant and dynamic sacred power that God charges the Holy Book with, spiritual revelation is received by the reader – if they are receptive to it. As for the Deluge, I wonder why Noah would let his duck-billed platypuses out of the Ark 4,000 years ago (or so) and then carry them all the way to eastern Australia and Tasmania and then go all the way back home again. Perhaps it was to give us a clue about something.
QuoteThanks, Rose. I just thought I'd gotten too deep or petulant or something. Or else you'd found more interesting stuff to discuss.
Well Chris :laughing7: ,
I can laugh ,
I love the simplicity in Christ , and hate to get wrapped up to tight in any " binding " and death clothes .. those are
the filthy rags after all ... we are warned not to be wearing when Christ returns .
I see the world as the thing to overcome and all that is in it , pomp and pride of life and a death shroud of mystery of iniquity ...
Turning one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh , so in the Day of the Lord his spirit will be saved , to me is exactly what Jobs experience was , IS and will be , we all get to taste the Job experience to a certain degree and yet , many times cannot relate to Job at all , go figure ?
All these examples of what men have encountered with God dealing with them and still cannot relate in the slightest ?
in Job were all the sons of God and satan was with them before the Lord , This accuser of the brethren , the liar and thief and destroyer was looking whom to pick on and spotted Job , it was his turn to be enlightened !!
Job 1 6Now there was a day when the sons of God
came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "
From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."... Before he was cast out of heaven entirely , and we see in Rev 12 he sure was !! no more room for such a rotten egg so the earth and the wrath of that ol dragon get all the brunt of it .
What helped me to make a big picture was knowing that in Rev 12 the woman is the church , Christ body being formed all along the way , but we can get a real clue in Rev , to me revelation / REVEALING OF CHRIST is the KEY that unlocks the books [ lo I come in the volume of a book that testifies of ME ]
And
when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he
persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time,
from the presence of the serpent. And
the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.
But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
the dragon s flood of lies and filth is a river to be dried up for the kings of the east to also be prepared ,,, we know if the earth world / our motal bodies swallowed up all that wrath against GODS HOLY SPIRIT it would surly cause a lot of chaos in the earth us namely not being able to inheit the Kingdom of God
Now I see the HOLY SPIRIT Fire drying up all them lies and death and hell and troubles and [seas , and voices rivers etc tongues and peoples hardened even in the iron furnace of affliction no more earth and no more sea , TILL CHRIST BE FORMED IN THEM ,,
When you can identify with Fire and Light and Holy Spirit oil , you sure can see a change is coming , fiery trials within us cause the heat and pressure to build up and out , we can see and outwardly manifestation of what was kept inside to be revealed when the rods of iron strike the clay pots and the revealing of the sons of God that were hidden inside can come forth by the Spirit of Life consuming all things that offend what is Holy and righteous and just and true
To the Glory of God , that is cutting to the chase , for me , but there are many , many things in between to overcome along the way .
Things within us that must be done away with in Christ :dsunny:
ps I am one whom loves to just stick to the Word for many answers , for me personally , I have noticed God puts a veil over them writers for me and do not know why :dontknow: , but have found many get lost in translations and meanings and stuff like that and try , being so immature spiritually speaking , I do believe it was a protection for my own good ,,,
I enjoy thinking about others points of view especially on this particular forum , we grow in truth and grace that ultimately comes from GOD HIMSELF
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 23, 2016, 06:39:31 PM
Some Christians don't like Rob Bell's teachings because he is super liberal in his theology. I read and enjoy his stuff but I know some don't. He has an online blog series called "what is the bible" that you can Google if you are interested.
He dissects the bible but over and over in the series he comes back to the idea that the bible was written by man and has to first and foremost be seen through this lens. Imperfect man trying to explain what they saw, heard, or what was passed down to them. But in the same breath, Rob says that doesn't discount be divine element of the bible. God meets us where we are. Then he transforms us to something higher and closer to Himself, through the bible. God is on every page but man has written the bible, so you are seeing God through man. It is somewhat of a paradox.
I believe spiritually viewing the bible can unite these two seemingly opposing views.
I do believe the bible is the story of God reaching out to man and man reaching out to God. It has spiritual truths throughout. Paul tells us of God's ultimate plan for all. Genesis is the story of how God is creating us. The gospels tell of Jesus walking among us and telling us how to live our lives in the best possible way. They tell of his amazing and earth shattering ministry and death.
I once read that Jesus did not come to save us from and angry God, but to save us from the idea that God is an angry God.
He is the face of God. Merciful, forgiving, loving, saving.
I felt some despair this morning so I decided after some self-defeating thoughts swimming around in my head, I would get quiet and meditate on God's love. I couldn't feel it at the time and I was feeling somewhat stubborn and self-righteous about some things but also wanted to reach out and connect with God so He could save me from myself.
I didn't intend to, but I ended up seeing a vision of Jesus on the cross and felt tears in my eyes.
The old sound bite of "Jesus died to save us from our sins" I believe to be true but in a different way than most. I believe the cross shows us how to live our lives. The cross shows us God's true nature. God is not an angry God. He demands mercy not sacrifice. Jesus did not sacrifice himself for God but instead he did it for us, as an example, so that we should sacrifice ourselves for those around us even when they don't deserve it. Loving and forgiving even when they don't deserve it. Doing so gently and with love. Not resisting. This is how we show God's love and how God saves us and how we serve each other. Jesus showed us how to live. I wish I were better at following his example.
I'm not saying the above is the ultimate truth, just my own experience and thoughts that I wanted to share. I hope it helps. It's my intention to help and to grow closer to God myself.
Amen , I believe that is wonderfully said GIL!! I too :iagree: with you we learn though others experience being touched by GOD as relating to our own ! :HeartThrob: while you were posting and Lastpost and I was all 3 and relating to the same things basically !!!
Hi all. I missed you all this past week. Nice to be back at Tentmakers this morning.
So, you all did a great job of breaking down the misunderstandings and incorrect ways of analyzing what is written in the Bible, IMO. And, of choosing Bible quotes to back this up.
Three of the points I see as emerging often are semantics or the meaning of words and thus, also expressions; interpretation, especially of words pertaining to fire/judgement in light of our view of Hell, (Of course, semantics and interpretation often overlap.) and the third is timing or often, whether the issue discussed needs to happen before we die or whether it can happen after we die.
So, this is good to see, I believe, and this is also one reason a cite, such as ours, is so useful. When we consider explaining and/or sharing this with others, it is great to have this kind of information.
I also think we need to emphasize the point that Jesus cannot be the Lord of All and yet so many people are in Hell. How can the devil be defeated if he still has half or so of mankind in bondage, with Him? Is that the image of Jesus as the ultimate savior of the world that we speak of?
Also, Love Never Fails. ( 1 Corinthians 13:8)
One simple statement, and yet, for me, it seems to sum up many other Bible quotes that reflect God's never ending and never failing love for us.
How have we for centuries preached this, simultaneously with the concept of an everlasting Hell?
If God is as we all say He is......all powerful, all knowing, all loving.....then He can find a way to reach us all. It might take time, but it can be done.
If love never fails, then, I believe, it will be done.
God's Love is said to never end. God cannot go back on His Word; He is constant and never changing. In our 'throw away' society, we often forget that the goal is that all love never ends. Even if we sometimes fail, He cannot. Even the theory that we choose Hell for ourselves, not God, does not seem adequate for a God who promises everlasting love.
Many, as I used to, believe that God does not put us in Hell, but that we choose it. For me, at this point in time, after giving Universal Salvation much thought, I cannot convince myself that that was His glorious plan from the beginning of time.
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
John 20:29
This is what Jesus told Thomas, after he had doubted that He was alive and had rose from the dead. Many have not seen but believe. But Thomas was brought back into the fold, once he saw and believed. And I believe that is what will happen to those who have died before believing, as well as for ourselves.
...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:25
I see it as very interesting that Jesus made distinctions as to the fact that some will die and then believe.
My :2c:
D.
Good stuff Dandelion :thumbsup: glad to have you back again !! :HeartThrob:
I do believe it is death that is what is tripping most all people up . understanding what death means .
Even me at times Doing a ''death '' study from the Bible is very enlightening.
Gathering many perspectives besides the one we hold as truth in the moment .
How can hell and death be cast into a lake of fire ?
One of the biggest clues of Revelation I believe that there is and that being the second death
and Gods promise of not being harmed by it .
what dying twice ?
what is dead in sin mean ? and what is found being dead in Christ ?
How could Paul find himself dying daily ?
What of Abraham finding himself as good as dead already ?
Those things help us look at more than just a mortal death in my opinion .
and I do consider myself dead already by many of those terms and also by worldly views .
The world has definitely lost is luster to so many of us already and cannot wait till the Lord comes fully
Hebrews 9 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Amen, Dandelion.. Very good post with very good points! What's so missing from the et or ed gospel is logic!! (makes me a little crazy, but I know it's temporary :banana: )
:gsmile:
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 12:54:19 AM
Amen, Dandelion.. Very good post with very good points! What's so missing from the et or ed gospel is logic!! (makes me a little crazy, but I know it's temporary :banana: )
:gsmile:
Exactly sis Marie ,
God is the God of the living not the dead ,,,, all must rise in Christ eventually some are just very blessed now !! GLORY TO GOD for His amazing grace and mercy on all !! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 23, 2016, 06:39:31 PM
Some Christians don't like Rob Bell's teachings because he is super liberal in his theology. I read and enjoy his stuff but I know some don't. He has an online blog series called "what is the bible" that you can Google if you are interested.
He dissects the bible but over and over in the series he comes back to the idea that the bible was written by man and has to first and foremost be seen through this lens. Imperfect man trying to explain what they saw, heard, or what was passed down to them. But in the same breath, Rob says that doesn't discount be divine element of the bible. God meets us where we are. Then he transforms us to something higher and closer to Himself, through the bible. God is on every page but man has written the bible, so you are seeing God through man. It is somewhat of a paradox.
I believe spiritually viewing the bible can unite these two seemingly opposing views.
I do believe the bible is the story of God reaching out to man and man reaching out to God. It has spiritual truths throughout. Paul tells us of God's ultimate plan for all. Genesis is the story of how God is creating us. The gospels tell of Jesus walking among us and telling us how to live our lives in the best possible way. They tell of his amazing and earth shattering ministry and death.
I once read that Jesus did not come to save us from and angry God, but to save us from the idea that God is an angry God.
He is the face of God. Merciful, forgiving, loving, saving.
I felt some despair this morning so I decided after some self-defeating thoughts swimming around in my head, I would get quiet and meditate on God's love. I couldn't feel it at the time and I was feeling somewhat stubborn and self-righteous about some things but also wanted to reach out and connect with God so He could save me from myself.
I didn't intend to, but I ended up seeing a vision of Jesus on the cross and felt tears in my eyes.
The old sound bite of "Jesus died to save us from our sins" I believe to be true but in a different way than most. I believe the cross shows us how to live our lives. The cross shows us God's true nature. God is not an angry God. He demands mercy not sacrifice. Jesus did not sacrifice himself for God but instead he did it for us, as an example, so that we should sacrifice ourselves for those around us even when they don't deserve it. Loving and forgiving even when they don't deserve it. Doing so gently and with love. Not resisting. This is how we show God's love and how God saves us and how we serve each other. Jesus showed us how to live. I wish I were better at following his example.
I'm not saying the above is the ultimate truth, just my own experience and thoughts that I wanted to share. I hope it helps. It's my intention to help and to grow closer to God myself.
If I'm still up to date I've read all Rob Bell's books except the latest and watched all his DVD's I find them fascination but because they operate just as introductions to things it's easy to go, whoa, hold up there I'm not sure you've thought that through. Some of them seem to have been re-edited as well and become choppy.
But let's not talk about that let's just talk about the end of your post and how beautiful and inspiring it is. Thanks, GiL.
Quote from: lastpost on April 23, 2016, 06:47:06 PM
Oh I do not doubt that there were great leaders whom we call Noah and Abraham with the seed-core of truth at the heart of their stories, what I was saying is that even during their own lifetimes there will have been the beginnings of legends being built around them bolstered by and drawn from already existing legends both local and foreign. The good news is that because of the vibrant and dynamic sacred power that God charges the Holy Book with, spiritual revelation is received by the reader – if they are receptive to it. As for the Deluge, I wonder why Noah would let his duck-billed platypuses out of the Ark 4,000 years ago (or so) and then carry them all the way to eastern Australia and Tasmania and then go all the way back home again. Perhaps it was to give us a clue about something.
This doesn't solve my problem because Abram was supposed to have been a heathen called out of heathenism by God. Every story he would have known would have been a heathen one so so do we get versions that aren't tainted? This is true of so many major characters in the Bible it makes it's entire message in the early part tenuous unless you accept it on faith and believe it somehow came from God not man even if it doesn't record literal history. It's like Jesus telling parables excect characters in parables don't need to exist so why do the characters in these stories except to make us feel aright?
Quote from: rosered on April 23, 2016, 06:52:40 PM
QuoteThanks, Rose. I just thought I'd gotten too deep or petulant or something. Or else you'd found more interesting stuff to discuss.
Well Chris :laughing7: ,
I can laugh ,
I love the simplicity in Christ , and hate to get wrapped up to tight in any " binding " and death clothes .. those are the filthy rags after all ... we are warned not to be wearing when Christ returns .
I see the world as the thing to overcome and all that is in it , pomp and pride of life and a death shroud of mystery of iniquity ...
Turning one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh , so in the Day of the Lord his spirit will be saved , to me is exactly what Jobs experience was , IS and will be , we all get to taste the Job experience to a certain degree and yet , many times cannot relate to Job at all , go figure ?
All these examples of what men have encountered with God dealing with them and still cannot relate in the slightest ?
in Job were all the sons of God and satan was with them before the Lord , This accuser of the brethren , the liar and thief and destroyer was looking whom to pick on and spotted Job , it was his turn to be enlightened !!
Job 1 6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."...
Before he was cast out of heaven entirely , and we see in Rev 12 he sure was !! no more room for such a rotten egg so the earth and the wrath of that ol dragon get all the brunt of it .
What helped me to make a big picture was knowing that in Rev 12 the woman is the church , Christ body being formed all along the way , but we can get a real clue in Rev , to me revelation / REVEALING OF CHRIST is the KEY that unlocks the books [ lo I come in the volume of a book that testifies of ME ]
And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth,
he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.
But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.
But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
the dragon s flood of lies and filth is a river to be dried up for the kings of the east to also be prepared ,,, we know if the earth world / our motal bodies swallowed up all that wrath against GODS HOLY SPIRIT it would surly cause a lot of chaos in the earth us namely not being able to inheit the Kingdom of God
Now I see the HOLY SPIRIT Fire drying up all them lies and death and hell and troubles and [seas , and voices rivers etc tongues and peoples hardened even in the iron furnace of affliction no more earth and no more sea , TILL CHRIST BE FORMED IN THEM ,,
When you can identify with Fire and Light and Holy Spirit oil , you sure can see a change is coming , fiery trials within us cause the heat and pressure to build up and out , we can see and outwardly manifestation of what was kept inside to be revealed when the rods of iron strike the clay pots and the revealing of the sons of God that were hidden inside can come forth by the Spirit of Life consuming all things that offend what is Holy and righteous and just and true
To the Glory of God , that is cutting to the chase , for me , but there are many , many things in between to overcome along the way .
Things within us that must be done away with in Christ :dsunny:
ps I am one whom loves to just stick to the Word for many answers , for me personally , I have noticed God puts a veil over them writers for me and do not know why :dontknow: , but have found many get lost in translations and meanings and stuff like that and try , being so immature spiritually speaking , I do believe it was a protection for my own good ,,,
I enjoy thinking about others points of view especially on this particular forum , we grow in truth and grace that ultimately comes from GOD HIMSELF
Yeah, the world is the thing to overcome, it's also the thing God is meant to be saving so go figure.
I also still can't get over my understanding that I received when I first read Paul talking about 'destruction of the flesh' which I took as a euphemism for execution. Still can't quite get off that.
I also don't seem to see Satan or the opening of Job as you do so if I tried respond to the rest of what you say there I suspect we'd be speaking crossed purposes.
QuoteYeah, the world is the thing to overcome, it's also the thing God is meant to be saving so go figure.
I also still can't get over my understanding that I received when I first read Paul talking about 'destruction of the flesh' which I took as a euphemism for execution. Still can't quite get off that.
I also don't seem to see Satan or the opening of Job as you do so if I tried respond to the rest of what you say there I suspect we'd be speaking crossed purposes
Hi CST ,
Just keep on keeping on , God has a way of just '' helping us , Say,'' oh yeah !'' down the road and '' the light bulb '' moments , many things it has taken years of asking seeking and knocking and many of wonderful folks put in our paths to help us all along the way .
Voices of many waters from above , I can now understand them to be , all coming from the mouth of God /Word made flesh , by His Holy Spirit ...
You are loved and wont bother you with my thoughts on these subjects , God bless you Chris always !! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Dandelion on April 23, 2016, 09:14:20 PM
Hi all. I missed you all this past week. Nice to be back at Tentmakers this morning.
So, you all did a great job of breaking down the misunderstandings and incorrect ways of analyzing what is written in the Bible, IMO. And, of choosing Bible quotes to back this up.
Three of the points I see as emerging often are semantics or the meaning of words and thus, also expressions; interpretation, especially of words pertaining to fire/judgement in light of our view of Hell, (Of course, semantics and interpretation often overlap.) and the third is timing or often, whether the issue discussed needs to happen before we die or whether it can happen after we die.
So, this is good to see, I believe, and this is also one reason a cite, such as ours, is so useful. When we consider explaining and/or sharing this with others, it is great to have this kind of information.
I also think we need to emphasize the point that Jesus cannot be the Lord of All and yet so many people are in Hell. How can the devil be defeated if he still has half or so of mankind in bondage, with Him? Is that the image of Jesus as the ultimate savior of the world that we speak of?
Also, Love Never Fails. ( 1 Corinthians 13:8)
One simple statement, and yet, for me, it seems to sum up many other Bible quotes that reflect God's never ending and never failing love for us.
How have we for centuries preached this, simultaneously with the concept of an everlasting Hell?
If God is as we all say He is......all powerful, all knowing, all loving.....then He can find a way to reach us all. It might take time, but it can be done.
If love never fails, then, I believe, it will be done.
God's Love is said to never end. God cannot go back on His Word; He is constant and never changing. In our 'throw away' society, we often forget that the goal is that all love never ends. Even if we sometimes fail, He cannot. Even the theory that we choose Hell for ourselves, not God, does not seem adequate for a God who promises everlasting love.
Many, as I used to, believe that God does not put us in Hell, but that we choose it. For me, at this point in time, after giving Universal Salvation much thought, I cannot convince myself that that was His glorious plan from the beginning of time.
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
John 20:29
This is what Jesus told Thomas, after he had doubted that He was alive and had rose from the dead. Many have not seen but believe. But Thomas was brought back into the fold, once he saw and believed. And I believe that is what will happen to those who have died before believing, as well as for ourselves.
...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
John 11:25
I see it as very interesting that Jesus made distinctions as to the fact that some will die and then believe.
My :2c:
D.
Did you mean to put this in the UR affirmations thread? If you did copy it there, if you didn't copy it there. It really is staggering how ETers and EDers don't see the clear objections to their worldview that you explain here.
Quote from: rosered on April 23, 2016, 10:59:23 PM
Good stuff Dandelion :thumbsup: glad to have you back again !! :HeartThrob:
I do believe it is death that is what is tripping most all people up . understanding what death means .
Even me at times Doing a "death " study from the Bible is very enlightening.
Gathering many perspectives besides the one we hold as truth in the moment .
How can hell and death be cast into a lake of fire ?
One of the biggest clues of Revelation I believe that there is and that being the second death
and Gods promise of not being harmed by it .
what dying twice ?
what is dead in sin mean ? and what is found being dead in Christ ?
How could Paul find himself dying daily ?
What of Abraham finding himself as good as dead already ?
Those things help us look at more than just a mortal death in my opinion .
and I do consider myself dead already by many of those terms and also by worldly views .
The world has definitely lost is luster to so many of us already and cannot wait till the Lord comes fully
Hebrews 9 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
I suspect that death has main different meanings the primary 2 being physical and spiritual. I've read a post around her of someone denying there is such a thing as spiritual death. I don't think they'd say that if they remembered experience it.
Quote from: rosered on April 24, 2016, 06:32:15 PM
Quote from: marie glen on April 24, 2016, 12:54:19 AM
Amen, Dandelion.. Very good post with very good points! What's so missing from the et or ed gospel is logic!! (makes me a little crazy, but I know it's temporary :banana: )
:gsmile:
Exactly sis Marie ,
God is the God of the living not the dead ,,,, all must rise in Christ eventually some are just very blessed now !! GLORY TO GOD for His amazing grace and mercy on all !! :HeartThrob:
Jesus saying that is a bit odd. In an isolated context the scripture doesn't say that. It just says the dead are dead the living are living God only is God of the living. But if that is true, where is His authority to judge the dead? Why would He ever care to?
:smile: Than you, Rose, you are so kind and friendly. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
QuoteJesus saying that is a bit odd. In an isolated context the scripture doesn't say that. It just says the dead are dead the living are living God only is God of the living. But if that is true, where is His authority to judge the dead? Why would He ever care to?
:smile: Than you, Rose, you are so kind and friendly. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
You are kind and friendly too Chris , and have enjoyed your ''heart'' .thoughts that come out of your heart expressing your own position .
If you believe Jesus Christ is fufulling ''all things'' He has tasted death for every man , giving Him that right to judge the dead and living , He become Lord of the dead and the living presenting them to the FATHER GOD OF THE LIVING .. Romans 14 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14)
Pual is one voice of the many living waters to me , the waters from Above found in Christ .
JESUS CHRIST ,He is the Lord of lords and KING of kings ,,,
But I see Jesus Christ / WORD OF GOD so much more differently now , not so much as flesh and blood , and a man , but as the WORD OF GOD HIMSELF .
all things are held by him and for Him and though Him Col 1
The Supremacy of Christ
...16For by Him all things were created,
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--
all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.... For me and my :2c: am seeing the WORD OF GOD created the old and the new , the name given under heaven by which you must be saved is the Lord Jesus Christ , this is the worlds testimony and witness to all that dwell on the earth :2c:
That have heard His name and believed in His name as being the Son of God , Just as Peter believed , who do you say that I am simon? [meaning hearing ]
You are the Son of God , Jesus replies flesh and blood did not reveal this to you , But my Father , being the Holy Spirit of the living that He is and by the Word spoken made it a ''rock solid truth to Zion , whose new name is Peter'' a lttle living stone '' , a white stone new heart , that is living and believing ] of Gods kingdom that the gates of hell / grave and death cannot prevail against
SION /ZION IS THE NEW JERUSALEM that comes down from above hebrews 12 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, etc..
The city of David and the sure mercies of Gods promise to all of us whom have believed on His name also by the Father showing mercy on us also .
We have our hope alive right now and access to the LIVING GOD though Jesus CHRIST :dsunny:
Thanks, Rose, you seem to be playing the context of redemption card there. Fine I see the poetry but again it depends on what is meant here by Jesus when He said 'dead' and also still suggests the objection, but God is Sovereign, of course He has authority over the dead. My point isn't actually that He doesn't have such authority it's why would He suggest He had no part in the dead. All the dead were formally living things made by God if He's lost them while they're dead (and I not sure why He would have) it's only just for Him to claim them back. The position Jesus seems to be describing seems to be a none position. I guess I just don't understand what He's saying when He uses the term dead. Though in the context He does seem to mean people who formerly lived but have died which do not include Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.
Quote from: CST on April 26, 2016, 08:33:30 PM
Thanks, Rose, you seem to be playing the context of redemption card there. Fine I see the poetry but again it depends on what is meant here by Jesus when He said 'dead' and also still suggests the objection, but God is Sovereign, of course He has authority over the dead. My point isn't actually that He doesn't have such authority it's why would He suggest He had no part in the dead. All the dead were formally living things made by God if He's lost them while they're dead (and I not sure why He would have) it's only just for Him to claim them back. The position Jesus seems to be describing seems to be a none position. I guess I just don't understand what He's saying when He uses the term dead. Though in the context He does seem to mean people who formerly lived but have died which do not include Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.
Hi Chris , For me , again it is symbolism , considering the sheer terror of Abrams experience with God before His name changed to Abraham and the father of ''faith ''
a substance that produced a promised son'' Isaac '' and Jacob , in all his troubles before His name change to Israel
where all the generations shall be blessed , being in Christ this ''anointing '' or the smearing of the Holy Spirit oil ,that is upon them is the Light of LIFE
Psalms 72 Give the King Your Justice
...16May there be abundance of grain in the earth on top of the mountains; Its fruit will wave like the cedars of Lebanon; And may those from the city flourish like vegetation of the earth.
17May his name endure forever;
May his name increase as long as the sun shines;
And let men bless themselves by him; Let all nations call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel,
Who alone works wonders.... For me , the :2c: is being Spiritual in symbolism walk in the Spirit and the Light of Life as a never ending thing but becomes a stronger bond by the Love of God .
less focus on the carnal things of the present world that is full of woes in their day and in our Day /Light
The peace and joy in the Spirit the carnal can never achieve or touch or taste , just the things of the world that result in the temporary moment but suffer loss and death , them things do not last ..
Hmm, I think we may really be talking crossed purposes now. I think it's best if we try to address this in the context Jesus said this.
Remember Jesus was answering the Sadducees question/objection on the resurrection. Remember the Saducees don't believe in the resurrection and they only recognize the authority of the Torah/Pentateuch. The Prophets and the Writings carries little to no weight with them.
So they attempt to trap Jesus and ask Him the ridiculous question about the woman who married seven husbands sequentially, basically a complete number of husbands I suspect but I can't work out how they're using it and asks who's wife she'll be in the resurrection. Remember that this is a trap and basically sexist, it would work with a man with seven wives.
The point is Jesus can't say she'll be married to all of them because that would be culturally appalling, but there are obviously problems with naming any single husband either. Ridiculous as I believe this is I expect it may have been a real dilemma in the day.
Jesus says she won't be married to any of them, her marriages all dissolve on the death of her husband (each of them) and will never be reinstated, marriage is an institution of this world not of the next. Which is sad for people who dream of being married but never will be.
He then says, because He can only direct them to the authority of the Torah, that God revealed Himself to Moses as "I AM the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob."
This doesn't come across very well in English I suspect it should be I AM BEING... I AM doesn't have the progressive sense in the context.
Jesus' point was that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had somehow, though they had died, already been resurrected to God because the Saducees should be able to understand from the text He quoted that the patriarchs, though they had died, were not dead. He then said God is God of the living not of the dead. Presumably everything Jesus says to the Saducees here has support in the Torah otherwise they'd be able to reject it out of hand and it would be no sort of answer to the question. They quite probably reject it anyway but that won't be because of any failing in Christ's argument.
I don't know Chris , it is according to HOW you believe ...
Pentateuch is a Greek word generally referring to the text of the written Torah or the first five books of the Tanakh. used in the customs and keeping of Jewish laws
Seriously though , they set ,,,,to trap Jesus Christ , but He actually trapped them with their own words ,, thoughts . what was in their hearts ,
Proving they were wise in their own eyes [ worldly wisdom ] how to make the flesh ''look holy'' before mankind ,but deny the Very power [ Holy SPIRIT ]
Which the Word of Life and Spirit of Life actually are and all that is found in them ..ALIVE
Jesus Christ appeared as a man , for all intents and purposes , But we Know by the new testament scriptures , that Jesus Christ is basically everything , and one thing for sure is the Mouth piece for GOD HIMSELF The Word of Life in which they kept rejecting , they judged the outward appearance and seeing a man , not God , because they thought they were gods .
Jesus Christ spoke only the words Father John 12 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them,
I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
I hope we are making some head way and meeting in the middle ground :laughing7: God bless us everyone :HeartThrob:
:smile: Thanks, Rose, Jesus did indeed do that. Not sure how many Saducees stopped been Saducees. Well all of them eventually I expect though perhaps not quite so many immediately.
I'm always confused about how Jesus talks about judgement in the Gospel. "I do not judge anyone..." But your God? "The word I spoke is what will judge him on the last day." That God bid you say? God who's you?
In John's Gospel (I think) Jesus also falls back on the law declaring how He will testify and then he Father will testify and thus will provide the two witnesses required by law, there's an implication of the Holy Spirit there because three witnesses are preferable. But that's for the sake of human's. The Father is not human that He should lie or His testimony be mistaken in His testimony.
Very strange, but very true and wise.
:smile: I'm not so sure that there won't be unions, marriage bonds in the kingdom.. I tend to think He was saying they will not be married (off) nor given in marriage.. no ceremonies.. :2c:
I tend to not think anyone has been resurrected yet, until the 1st resurrection.. but to Yahweh, His people are not "dead" but resting.. They have not ceased to exist - the opposite of life (originally, until, imo, and others I've read, paganism was blended in - I'm a big fan of history which sheds a lot of light) ..again, :2c: :gsmile:
I believe truth judges us.. especially when all built on sand can only crash and burn as the saying goes.. consequences and results of our own doings.. made apparent on judgment day, if not sooner - i.e. in each individual case..
The Saducees pretty much disappeared after the razing of Jerusalem by Titus in 70ce. (days of our Lord, a.d.)
:Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on April 27, 2016, 08:16:31 PM
:smile: I'm not so sure that there won't be unions, marriage bonds in the kingdom.. I tend to think He was saying they will not be married (off) nor given in marriage.. no ceremonies.. :2c:
I tend to not think anyone has been resurrected yet, until the 1st resurrection.. but to Yahweh, His people are not "dead" but resting.. They have not ceased to exist - the opposite of life (originally, until, imo, and others I've read, paganism was blended in - I'm a big fan of history which sheds a lot of light) ..again, :2c: :gsmile:
I believe truth judges us.. especially when all built on sand can only crash and burn as the saying goes.. consequences and results of our own doings.. made apparent on judgment day, if not sooner - i.e. in each individual case..
The Saducees pretty much disappeared after the razing of Jerusalem by Titus in 70ce. (days of our Lord, a.d.)
:Peace2:
Aah, I love you honesty and optimism. I personally don't expect there to be marriage in the kingdom excepting that of God to the save world and that Jesus was saying exactly what He meant.
That's because I see marriage, which can be beautiful, painful and isn't for me, as being an institution for this world because of the limitations of this world. I feel we demand an exclusivity in love that really doesn't suit it and for practical and moral purposes we can't share our love in the marital way with everyone. Hopefully in Heaven we'll be better at it.
But I certainly think that, yes, people may decide to all sorts of celebrations of love that could be comparable to marriage if that's what you're saying. It's certainly a nice thought.
It's hard for me to believe anyone's been resurrected yet, excepting Jesus, or and Lazarus and a few people in the Old Testament. Resurrection isn't perhaps the best translation for understanding exactly what the Saducees were taking exception to. Obviously they were referring to bodily resurrection in the world to come, believed only the Torah which I don't think contains any direct resurrection stories, and apparently doubted God's intention on this matter, because you'd think if they doubted His capacity, oh wait they did. They were a bit like EDers but for everyone.
Yeah, I'd agree that what God said to Moses can't be understood in the sense of the end of the age bodily resurrection. That is why when I read about the deconstruction of the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, good deconstructions by the way. I can't simply take the objection that what Jesus said about the afterlife was based on a myth. At the very least it acknowledges people who have that understand of the afterlife and does not criticize or correct the idea and lends support to it.
What Jesus does here is suggest that God makes some sort of distinction between those who are alive to Him and those who are dead, and Abraham is among the living. But this is the wrong place to discuss that.
I'll acknowledge your knowledge of the fall of the Saducees though.
Reading over the original post, I find most of their statements - in themselves - are actually true (if you disregard their obvious, underlying false assumptions about universalist beliefs). But I also find that what they are refuting - Universalism - hardly represents what we, as universalists believe. There is a religion called "Universalism" whose beliefs are drastically different from our beliefs about universal salvation. In fact, it is pretty much a "believe-whatever-you-like" and "anything-goes" religion. We are not "Universalists" as defined by the religious world. We are simply believers in the salvation of all, and quite frankly, for obvious reasons, I prefer not to be labelled as a Universalist, or for that matter, an anything-ist. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure I want to be labelled "Christian" in today's religious environment.
The whole batch of 24 reasons to believe in hell was poorly written, using poor logic, opinions, and scripturally unfounded assumptions. As a matter of fact, the last one, number 24, is not even a reason, but rather, a "what-if."
Quote from: JBerton on November 07, 2016, 06:11:59 PM
Reading over the original post, I find most of their statements - in themselves - are actually true (if you disregard their obvious, underlying false assumptions about universalist beliefs). But I also find that what they are refuting - Universalism - hardly represents what we, as universalists believe. There is a religion called "Universalism" whose beliefs are drastically different from our beliefs about universal salvation. In fact, it is pretty much a "believe-whatever-you-like" and "anything-goes" religion. We are not "Universalists" as defined by the religious world. We are simply believers in the salvation of all, and quite frankly, for obvious reasons, I prefer not to be labelled as a Universalist, or for that matter, an anything-ist. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure I want to be labelled "Christian" in today's religious environment.
The whole batch of 24 reasons to believe in hell was poorly written, using poor logic, opinions, and scripturally unfounded assumptions. As a matter of fact, the last one, number 24, is not even a reason, but rather, a "what-if."
:iagree:
Very well expressed JB. I strongly dislike the label "universalism" or "universalist". Has so much baggage with it. It is also not a biblical term. There is a plethora of posts and this topic that see it as a very inappropriate term for we who believe in the salvation of all. :thumbsup:
Amen! :iagree:
I went back to read the op, but then I couldn't even read it! All so tiring! :gfish:
Like JB said, 'they' just don't get the point that we believe redemption and reconciliation is only through genuinely believing in Jesus, through repentance, etc.
As far as i can perceive the only difference really, in the viewpoints is the idea that once one dies aLL bets are off. And also how they are not able to see - at this time - that to be destroyed here upon earth - literally or in judgment on judgment day as in the judging of the life they led, doesn't mean literally destroyed as to be annihilated.. Besides most believe destruction isn't the end! But are then alive for eternal torment. Yet unable to be alive and able to repent? If you think about it, that makes no sense, either.
Gee.. it's just so sad our heavenly Father is so unable to rescue so many more (from the wages of sin, death). So sad.. (So sad so many believe Him to be so incompetent!)
The hell myth is so ridiculous - most especially in light of God's character and POWER - sometimes I simply want to say, "you've
got to be kidding!" It's nice to know, one day, all will come 'round... :gsmile:
I think one of the reasons some of these things are shrouded in mystery is because He likes and wants the interaction with us as we seek to understand and go to Him seeking the answers and understanding..
I like too, what GodisLove said -
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 23, 2016, 06:39:31 PM
I once read that Jesus did not come to save us from an angry God, but to save us from the idea that God is an angry God.
31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. Lamentations 3:31-33
It's plainly stated, "the Lord will not cast off for ever:" - anybody believing in "everlasting hell" doesn't believe in God. They do believe in a god, but his name is Satan and his lies are wicked, piercing to the very core of their being. They don't worship Jesus Christ, the truth. Nor do they worship the one true God, Yahweh, who is "Light in Whom there is no darkness at all." - such a God would never torture people for eternity.
They don't know the scriptures, nor the power of God, but ESPECIALLY, THEY DON'T KNOW THE NATURE OF GOD. Jesus said He's not a liar, He said His Father and He are one, He also lived a life without sin and PROVED HIS NATURE AND HIS FATHER'S NATURE.
Quote from: marie glen on November 08, 2016, 08:22:22 PM
Amen! :iagree:
I think one of the reasons some of these things are shrouded in mystery is because He likes and wants the interaction with us as we seek to understand and go to Him seeking the answers and understanding..
[/quote]
a GREAT point, Marie...never thought of that ! :dsunny:
Quote from: Jason on March 03, 2018, 09:39:02 PM
31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. Lamentations 3:31-33
It's plainly stated, "the Lord will not cast off for ever:" - anybody believing in "everlasting hell" doesn't believe in God. They do believe in a god, but his name is Satan and his lies are wicked, piercing to the very core of their being. They don't worship Jesus Christ, the truth. Nor do they worship the one true God, Yahweh, who is "Light in Whom there is no darkness at all." - such a God would never torture people for eternity.
They don't know the scriptures, nor the power of God, but ESPECIALLY, THEY DON'T KNOW THE NATURE OF GOD. Jesus said He's not a liar, He said His Father and He are one, He also lived a life without sin and PROVED HIS NATURE AND HIS FATHER'S NATURE.
Yes , the whole world wondered after the beast :sigh: I am afraid religious Babylon has made a false Image of the beast and called it god , when they read the scriptures with their carnal and beastly minds , the pride of Babylon
Religion in general appearing holy before men but God knows the heart
Rev 13 The Beast from the Sea
...2The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion.
And the dragon gave the beast his power and throne and great authority. 3One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded.
But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
4They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, "
Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?"... Job 41
Any hope of capturing him proves false.
Does a person not collapse at the very sight of him?
No one is ferocious enough to rouse Leviathan;
who then can stand against me?
Who confronted me, that I should repay him?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.I cannot be silent about his limbs,
his power, and his graceful proportions.
Who can strip off his outer covering?
Who can penetrate his double layer of armor?
Who can open his jaws,
surrounded by those terrifying teeth?
Isaiah 13 A Judgment against Babylon
...18And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children.
19And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans' pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation; Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there, Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there....
Lots of prophetic things to consider .