24 Reasons Hell Is Real

[Caffus]

You guys are doing a great job. This article is written in ignorance of our beliefs confusing Christian Universalism with Unitarian Universalism.  This article with these responses can be a great tool for spreading the Truth, God willing. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

1 John 4:18

I view fear as torment ( not physical but mental, of the heart) a process of growing into deeper understanding of Him. I see punishment as loving chastisement from God for our good.

I am not disagreeing with anything said above, but I am raising a point. Punishment is unpleasant. Sometimes extremely so. God is gracious, slow to anger, and quick to forgive- but perhaps even because of all that, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

All punishment is in the moment unpleasant but in the end it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness.

There is an easy way and a hard way and the easy way is better, for sure. God's loving chastisement is no less painful because it is motivated by love, because some times love is hard, tough, direct.

There is still a consequence of persistent willful disobedience and predatory wickedness, and whatever it is- and for all the love behind it, and for all it will get a holy result, it will be a fearful thing.

[Aerex]

Why does punishment have to be unpleasant? Couldn't God punish us without it being unpleasant .

[Lazarus Short]

Why does punishment have to be unpleasant? Couldn't God punish us without it being unpleasant .

If it were pleasant, it wouldn't be punishment, would it?

[eaglesway]

I think one thing that must be understood is that God is not like our earthly father's. He does not punish or chastise on whimsy, mood, or arbitrary authority issues. God's fatherly discipline is always after many appeals and instructions, primarily to prevent our destroying ourselves or others, and for the purpose of teaching us how to stay in a love walk with Jesus, because that is what righteousness is,

"Take my yoke upon you for I am meek and lowly of hear and you will find rest for your souls."

And God's fatherly discipline always yields the peacable fruit of righteousness.

The only pleasant way to be corrected is to listen to the instruction of Wisdom and apply oneself to walking in it :o)

[Graph1159]

Here are my responses to several points in the article:

"Some false teachers today would like us to think that everybody will eventually get to heaven. Don't believe them."

I do not see Ultimate Reconciliation as everybody "eventually getting to Heaven." I believe that Heaven (as it exists during this age and the ages to come), is something that not everybody will experience. Rev. 21-22 describes the New Heavens and New Earth as lasting for the eons, but there are still people outside experiencing the Second Death. However, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28, Paul describes how, eventually, God will be "all in all" with death abolished and all made alive in Christ. Since death is the wages of sin (Rom. 6:23), if death is abolished, that means the sinfulness in humanity has also been abolished, so what is there to keep all humanity from experiencing reconciliation with God?

"Personal repentance and faith in Christ are not necessary for going to heaven. The Christian mission is reduced to announcing to people the 'good news' that they are already saved."

The sinful nature of humanity must be destroyed in order for people to be saved. For those who trust in Christ in this life, one's death to the sinful nature is a much less painful process than what will be experienced by those who die unsaved; this is the motivation for repentance. As for people being "already saved," on one hand, God calls things that are not as though they were (Rom. 4:17), and He has declared the justification of all humanity through the finished work of Christ (Rom. 5:18-19). However, salvation is not a manifested reality for all people today, as many Scriptures make clear.

"The 'water of life' is offered to all, but not all receive it or even desire it. 'Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely' (Rev. 22:17)."

Paul wrote that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy" (Rom. 9:16). Salvation is not a matter of exercising our wills to receive something. Rather, God calls people into the faith and then they are justified (Rom. 8:30). God is the author and finisher of our faith (Heb. 12:2). God works all things according to the council of His will (Eph. 1:11), and it is His will for everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4-6).

"Scripture teaches that there is unending, eternal judgment for those who do not know God and who do not respond in faith to the gospel. 'The Lord Jesus [will be] revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power' (2 Thess. 1:7-9)."

The Greek words translated "eternal", "everlasting," or "forever," do not have to mean an endless period of time. I recommend reading An Analytical Study of Words by Louis Abbott and All in All by A.E. Knoch for more information on this.

"If we embrace Universalism, there is no urgency to evangelize or imperative to do missions. In fact, evangelism and missions would have to be redefined. We need look no further than most of the mainline denominations to see what happens to evangelism when Universalism is prevalent."

I do not know of any denomination that boldly teaches Universalism from a strictly Biblical standpoint. The more liberal denominations may downplay hell and loosen the requirements for salvation (possibily keeping a post-mortem door open), but I have not found a denomination that confidently asserts that Christ's death and resurrection has the redemptive power to actually draw all mankind back to God.

"If Universalism is finally proved right, nothing will have been lost by our continued urgency in winning people to faith in Christ. But if it is false and we embrace it, then everything will be forever lost--including people who do not know Christ."

But what if the doctrine of eternal torment is turning many people away from Christ, who would have been saved in this life and spared from punishment of the eons had they heard the message of Ultimate Reconciliation?

Regarding the issue of needing a "broken heart," a broken heart may cause some people to evangelize. However, for other people, a broken heart leads to despair and depression, without providing the power needed to change one's life. Ultimately, it is God who works in believers to will and to work (Phil. 2:13). It is up to God to decide what state an individual's heart should be in to serve as a backdrop for His work in the person's life.

[marie glen]

New International Version (NIV)

Hebrews 9:26

26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all" (time?) "at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."

It does not say "to do away with some sin.."
------------------------------

Hebrews 1:3

3 "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."

Again it does not say "purification for some sins".. some versions insert "our" sins.. certainly doesn't say "for the elect's sins" (only!)

..then "he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (KJ) does not sound like limited success
-------------------------------

"...you will die in your sins" why race ahead and assume SO much? that this means all hope is lost / eternal annihilation or eternal torment? It's merely assumption (and running ahead of the Word/Truth). All it can be proven, or logical, to be saying is they who "die in their sins" will find their selves rising (still) in their sins.

from Revelation 20:5,7,12-15

"5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended... 7 When the thousand years are over.. ..12 the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.. ..15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." ...Young's - "was cast to the lake of the fire"..

Bible verses are not always in order, especially in (world) prophecy, but I still can't help noticing verse 14 precedes verse 15

[Imo, anyone whose name (still) not found written in the book of life.. cast to the lake of fire-ageduring...]

[BenC]

Why does punishment have to be unpleasant? Couldn't God punish us without it being unpleasant .

If it were pleasant, it wouldn't be punishment, would it?

But isn't God's punishment invariably constructive/ restorative, so fearing Him is the beginning of wisdom for those with ears to hear?  So a humbling experience can be immensely valuable (rapturous even), when we're alive to God's work.  It's not hard to imagine what it would be like to spend my life building my carnal power and material wealth just to find out post-mortem it was all dross and would have to go.  That I had put my faith into passing things and believed in my own high net worth.  I would only let go kicking and screaming, a-wailing and a-gnashing, because I'd be so hardened.  Oh the truth burns.  For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself (Gal 6:3).

Isn't this unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment at the heart of the ET folk's error?  Ultimately it seems they have substituted God for man's image, which is a monstrous strawman, but the good news is that it is all part of His plan to bring all to repentance.

Now I'd better get back to trying to remove the forest from my own eye.

[Lazarus Short]

But isn't God's punishment invariably constructive/ restorative, so fearing Him is the beginning of wisdom for those with ears to hear?  So a humbling experience can be immensely valuable (rapturous even), when we're alive to God's work.

Isn't this unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment at the heart of the ET folk's error?  Ultimately it seems they have substituted God for man's image, which is a monstrous strawman, but the good news is that it is all part of His plan to bring all to repentance.

Yes, in the carnal realm, it is punishment, mean, hurtful, and unpleasant.  In the spiritual realm, it is God saving our cookies.  In my own case, I remember being on the cusp of a crucial decision - and then a hand I didn't see tapped me on the shoulder, and a voice I didn't hear with my ears said, "What do you think you're about to do?"  Knowing who had spoken in such a way, I folded and didn't do it.  My carnal self then had a long battle with my spiritual self, and months later, I found that I had been saved from a world of hurt.  Praise the Hand and the Voice!

"...unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment..."  Yes, that's all part of the mix, but I see it as more of the adoption of pagan world views, such as life after death, existence in an underworld, and vengeance on one's personal enemies.  Didn't God tell us that His ways were above our ways?  Yes He did, and that means that He deals with evil-doers in a different way than sinful men.  Instead of tossing them into Hell, God refines them until they become non-evil-doers - amazing!  That refinement applies to all us, Laz included.  Now you know why there are no [insert list of evil-doers] in the Kingdom, not because they are in Hell, but because they are justified, sanctified, and glorified - that is to say, refined, even if they were kicking and screaming.  Did Jesus really tell us to turn the other cheek, and yet has Dante, Milton, and Mary K. Baxter write of Him relegating sinners to Hell?  God forbid!

[BenC]

But isn't God's punishment invariably constructive/ restorative, so fearing Him is the beginning of wisdom for those with ears to hear?  So a humbling experience can be immensely valuable (rapturous even), when we're alive to God's work.

Isn't this unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment at the heart of the ET folk's error?  Ultimately it seems they have substituted God for man's image, which is a monstrous strawman, but the good news is that it is all part of His plan to bring all to repentance.

Yes, in the carnal realm, it is punishment, mean, hurtful, and unpleasant.  In the spiritual realm, it is God saving our cookies.  In my own case, I remember being on the cusp of a crucial decision - and then a hand I didn't see tapped me on the shoulder, and a voice I didn't hear with my ears said, "What do you think you're about to do?"  Knowing who had spoken in such a way, I folded and didn't do it.  My carnal self then had a long battle with my spiritual self, and months later, I found that I had been saved from a world of hurt.  Praise the Hand and the Voice!

"...unfortunate mix of literalism, works salvation and carnal view of punishment..."  Yes, that's all part of the mix, but I see it as more of the adoption of pagan world views, such as life after death, existence in an underworld, and vengeance on one's personal enemies.  Didn't God tell us that His ways were above our ways?  Yes He did, and that means that He deals with evil-doers in a different way than sinful men.  Instead of tossing them into Hell, God refines them until they become non-evil-doers - amazing!  That refinement applies to all us, Laz included.  Now you know why there are no [insert list of evil-doers] in the Kingdom, not because they are in Hell, but because they are justified, sanctified, and glorified - that is to say, refined, even if they were kicking and screaming.  Did Jesus really tell us to turn the other cheek, and yet has Dante, Milton, and Mary K. Baxter write of Him relegating sinners to Hell?  God forbid!

Yes, I feel we can safely say that God's fire is not the fire of the Catholic inquisitor's dungeon.  Forgiveness is such a challenge when you're self-righteous.  So many prefer to smoulder in resentment comforted by the belief that the talons of justice will smite their oppressors harder later.  Do you think that even Paul was unable to forgive Alexander the Coppersmith in 2 Tim 4:14? (I always picture Alexander blowing raspberries and giving the slow clap when Paul rises to address the throng!)

Btw, dare I ask - is your avatar a giant serpent?



 

[eaglesway]

I have a natural antipathy towards politicians. jesus characterized them as snakes and foxes.

It was only to be expected that as soon as the 'church" became a political entity that lies and leverage of various kinds would proliferate in order to consolidate power, hide inequities and corruption and enable the wicked to flourish.

Hell, the clergy/laity divide, the Holy See, the selling of the forgiveness of sins, indulgences, etc.... all means of unrighteous control and dominion.

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, I feel we can safely say that God's fire is not the fire of the Catholic inquisitor's dungeon.  Forgiveness is such a challenge when you're self-righteous.  So many prefer to smoulder in resentment comforted by the belief that the talons of justice will smite their oppressors harder later.  Do you think that even Paul was unable to forgive Alexander the Coppersmith in 2 Tim 4:14? (I always picture Alexander blowing raspberries and giving the slow clap when Paul rises to address the throng!)

Btw, dare I ask - is your avatar a giant serpent?

I have had a few Alexander the Coppersmith's in my own life, and had trouble letting go of my unforgiveness - UNTIL I allowed myself to see myself as they must have.  It was humbling, and only then was I able to feel forgiveness.  Of course, they do not know, but was able to enter a sense of freedom, not fettered by my own attitude.

BTW, it's not a giant serpent, but Kosh Naranek, who spoke the quote under his picture.  He's a wise but enigmatic alien on the TV show "Babylon 5."

[Patinak]

Laz,
Thanks for letting us know about Kosh Naranek. I've been wondering for years what it was. The world all makes sense again!  :cloud9:

[marie glen]

Reasons Hell Is Not Real.. I'm thinking of just one right now, but I've been thinking it for quite a few days now..

It's this verse, how Jesus said to the pharisees "unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish". The potential is, imo, if there is no redemption and reconciliation - were it possible - the reuslt would be to perish.. not to live immortally in another state or form of 'life' in a torturous realm..

Seems the same as "the wages" result "of sin" (Greek "missing the mark") [imperfection as opposed to God's Perfection, Who is also Life, the life force, hence imperfection is the opposite of life] ..the result of missing the mark is death (nonlife, surely not immortality in a different, fiery state of living). :2c:

[Dandelion]

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

1 John 4:18

I view fear as torment ( not physical but mental, of the heart) a process of growing into deeper understanding of Him. I see punishment as loving chastisement from God for our good.

I am not disagreeing with anything said above, but I am raising a point. Punishment is unpleasant. Sometimes extremely so. God is gracious, slow to anger, and quick to forgive- but perhaps even because of all that, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

All punishment is in the moment unpleasant but in the end it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness.

There is an easy way and a hard way and the easy way is better, for sure. God's loving chastisement is no less painful because it is motivated by love, because some times love is hard, tough, direct.

There is still a consequence of persistent willful disobedience and predatory wickedness, and whatever it is- and for all the love behind it, and for all it will get a holy result, it will be a fearful thing.

Looking at this again. It made me go back to the passage I took that quote from:

1John4: YLT

16 and we -- we have known and believed the love, that God hath in us; God is love, and he who is remaining in the love, in God he doth remain, and God in him.
17 In this made perfect hath been the love with us, that boldness we may have in the day of the judgment, because even as He is, we -- we also are in this world;
18 fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love;
19 we -- we love him, because He -- He first loved us;

Another translation: NLT

13 And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us. 14 Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 All who declare that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God. 16 We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love.

God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them. 17 And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment, but we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.

18 Such love has no fear, because perfect love expels all fear. If we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment, and this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love. 19 We love each other because he loved us first.

I think what this is saying, is something like this:  If we truly know God, we also know how much He loves us, and when he does chastise us, we also know that He does so out of His great love for us. And, when we realize that His correction is because of His love, we will not be afraid, but accept what we have to bear, because we know, whatever He does to correct us, is for our own good, and flows from His tremendous love. 

So, that being said, I do agree with both of you. As I used to say to my children: When God knocks, you best open the door, because next time, He will knock louder.

Far be if from me, to say that I don't believe that God corrects us, and that sometimes, that correction can feel very unpleasant.

:Peace2:

D.   

[Aerex]

Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.

[eaglesway]

Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap.

God is not about punishing wrong for the sake of retribution. He allows our own ways to come upon us, so that we will learn the futility of our reasoning and embrace His wisdom.

He forgives and prevents the full weight of our foolishness from falling upon us even as we test Him continually in our arrogant disregard of His love for us, which He renews every day- waiting always for "light to shine out of darkness" and love to be born in us, and grow in us, and govern our actions and attitudes.

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us ALL, and His corrections are delivered for the purpose of turning us from our wickerd ways and preserving us from the harshest consequences of them, but all along the way He extends mercy, and cries out with the voice of wisdom that has gone out over the whole earth, "Listen!"

[Aerex]

Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap.

God is not about punishing wrong for the sake of retribution. He allows our own ways to come upon us, so that we will learn the futility of our reasoning and embrace His wisdom.

He forgives and prevents the full weight of our foolishness from falling upon us even as we test Him continually in our arrogant disregard of His love for us, which He renews every day- waiting always for "light to shine out of darkness" and love to be born in us, and grow in us, and govern our actions and attitudes.

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us ALL, and His corrections are delivered for the purpose of turning us from our wickerd ways and preserving us from the harshest consequences of them, but all along the way He extends mercy, and cries out with the voice of wisdom that has gone out over the whole earth, "Listen!"

Fair enough however I think it is more than preserving us from  far more serious punishments. He clearly did not do this for Jesus. He did good and got awarded death. Also what about God stating that he cause all into disobedience so that he may have mercy to all? I don't think punishment is what causes people to turn away from his or her sin. It is the kindness of God. Generally, punishment is supposed to teach right?

[Dandelion]

This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. Genesis 6:9

Years ago, I was working in Christian schools as a Resource Room teacher. I used the story of Noah, as a first person essay for the students. At that point in time, this line captured me, and it has stayed with me since. Noah walked with God. What a beautiful image, and way of viewing what I believe our relationship should be with God. To walk with Him, each and everyday, all during the day.

If when I die, someone can say that at my eulogy, then I will have lived a wonderful life.

There is a point to this. When we walk with God, there are few surprises. We pray, we talk, He talks to us......he teaches us along the way. He takes us thru the winding road of life, with all its joys and perils and everything in between. It is all about teaching. Sometimes, we don't learn easily. But, I have found that the more we have God with us, the less the sting, because He is there with us. He is so many things to us.....our rock; our strength; our refuge; our joy; our healer; our Savior, and on and on. He allows whatever is needed to bring us closer to Him.....to be more like Him.

...27"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.... Matthew 11:28

What we give to Him, He will in some way, give us grace and strength to bear.

...9And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:10

In our weakness, He is able to be given His Glory. And, that, as I often say, is why I believe we are here to begin with. To bring glory to our God.

I think often, we don't feel enough grace to get through things, because we just can't let go enough. Even the painful becomes familiar, and the guilt seems to fit sometimes. But, that is not what I believe He wants for us.

I have learned, when things happen, that are difficult, or I don't understand, to ask God, "What am I supposed to learn from this?" and often I add, let me learn it quickly.......  :eek:

Anyway, my  :2c:

I just want to add the disclaimer that I certainly don't have this all figured out. I will leave with one more quote by C.S. Lewis:

"Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world."
― C.S. Lewis

D.

[Horan]

It appears to me entirely certain, from scripture, that not all will be saved at Christ's second coming, that a selection will take place, a harvest, such as those deemed worthy will spend the next 1000 years growing and maturing in our Lord, while the rest will be food for the carrion birds, not necessarily hell, but hardly a happy enduing.  However much one might like to believe in universal salvation. however many scriptural statements one might assemble which attest to all being saved, we still have to deal with a monumental body of evidence attesting to a selection taking place, actually very soon. So, if a case can be made for universal salvation, and I hope it can, I think one needs to concentrate attention on what transpires at the end of the millennium, the Gog and Magog battle, and the lake of fire; which is to say, what do these things mean and, if they might be understood to mean that all will be saved, how can such assertion be supported by scripture? I think scripture often does not make it clear which event or time-frame is being referenced, the first resurrection or the second.

[WhiteWings]

It appears to me entirely certain, from scripture, that not all will be saved at Christ's second coming, that a selection will take place, a harvest,

There are 3 harvest seasons in real life and in God's Plan.

[Horan]

I suspect there are more harvest seasons, or something akin, but if you want to defend a doctrine of universal reconciliation, in expository fashion for others, you need to demonstrate this with scripture, because there is so much scripture which points to an exclusive selection. I'm suggesting that there certainly is an exclusive selection at Christ's second coming, and that if we would like to assemble evidence for an all inclusive salvation, we need to look beyond this event and, indeed, Revelation indicates that there is something that might be examined, a second resurrection and yet another gathering for battle.

Is it perhaps interesting that Revelation doesn't make reference to an actual battle, but to a gathering for one, much as the same document presents that of God and Magog as yet another gathering? I personally don't believe that either of these, Armageddon or Gog and Magog is a real, literal, blood, guts and gunpowder battle, or even a gathering for such a literal thing, but that these are spiritual contests, for winning of the hearts and minds of people, for either Christ or His adversary.

So White Wings, your assertion of there being three harvests interests me. Would you care to elaborate?

[marie glen]

Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.

I think of most of that as consequences.. or even more exactly as results.. Of our own doings.. So in a way it is our father's punishment, because He set it up that way, that actions, words, even thoughts, have consequences or results. Not that He's not involved in the process. And perhaps chastening is a blend of both, the natural law of sin and death and the Lord's chastening.

[marie glen]

Is God really punishing us because the events that happen in our lives is our fault? I just cant buy the fact that God only punishes those who willfully sin. I think God punishes everyone regardless if he or she does right or wrong.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, so shall he also reap.

God is not about punishing wrong for the sake of retribution. He allows our own ways to come upon us, so that we will learn the futility of our reasoning and embrace His wisdom.

He forgives and prevents the full weight of our foolishness from falling upon us even as we test Him continually in our arrogant disregard of His love for us, which He renews every day- waiting always for "light to shine out of darkness" and love to be born in us, and grow in us, and govern our actions and attitudes.

Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

God has laid upon Him the iniquity of us ALL, and His corrections are delivered for the purpose of turning us from our wickerd ways and preserving us from the harshest consequences of them, but all along the way He extends mercy, and cries out with the voice of wisdom that has gone out over the whole earth, "Listen!"

      :cloud9: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

It appears to me entirely certain, from scripture, that not all will be saved at Christ's second coming, that a selection will take place, a harvest, such as those deemed worthy will spend the next 1000 years growing and maturing in our Lord, while the rest will be food for the carrion birds, not necessarily hell, but hardly a happy enduing.  However much one might like to believe in universal salvation. however many scriptural statements one might assemble which attest to all being saved, we still have to deal with a monumental body of evidence attesting to a selection taking place, actually very soon. So, if a case can be made for universal salvation, and I hope it can, I think one needs to concentrate attention on what transpires at the end of the millennium, the Gog and Magog battle, and the lake of fire; which is to say, what do these things mean and, if they might be understood to mean that all will be saved, how can such assertion be supported by scripture? I think scripture often does not make it clear which event or time-frame is being referenced, the first resurrection or the second.

I agree a selection being made, Jesus said at His coming would be gathered on one hand the sheep and on the other the goats to whom He will say "depart from Me into age-lasting fire" - from Mt 25:32-41 and 2 Thess 1:1,8 says He comes with His angels and in flaming fire.

(Mt 24:29,31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days.. shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds under heaven..")

"At the last trump(et)" 1 Cor 15:52; Rev 11:15; 10:7

Rev 20:5,7 "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years are finished.. ..When the thousand years are expired.. Satan released, causes war, Gog, Magog.. :Chinscratch: Wonder how long?

Verse 11,12 (from ISA Interlinear - "and  I perceived a throne white great.. and I perceived the dead little and great having stood in view of the God.."

I can't remember if I read this somewhere (or if the HS brought it to mind one day) but I believe the ancient autumn Holy Days (of Lev 23) are a sort of prophesying 0f our Lord's long second advent. Surely He fulfilled the Spring Holy Days (Feasts) by His first advent (Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits (when a single sheaf of wheat was waved in the air) [and Pentecost]

It seems like a close pattern to me.. of the Fall Feasts - Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Tabernacles (Booths)

Trumpets is not hard to equate with His return.. And Tabernacles with Rev 21, when God's city "down steps to the earth" God will "booth/Tabernacle" with man.. And the one sitting on the throne said.. new all I am making.." (ISA interlinear)

Trumpets, 10 days later, Day of Atonement, 5 days later, Tabernacles

Jesus told the pharisees unless they believed (or did He say repented?) they would "die in their sins.. The second resurrection, it seems therefor (to me, anyway) that these ones rise still in their sins.

I guess personally, I have come to think that Judgment Day (2nd peak of His long 2nd advent) has got to be a very important 'day'.. And i found the more I thought about it, the more reasonable and logical it seems that the Great White Throne judgment be a gReat day of review.. A time of deeply engraving upon every heart, mind and psyche the full understanding of good from evil, which is also life from death.. God being both Life and Perfection.. but creating rational creatures was a real Pandora's box.. so to speak. A whole new world (or tree) of possibilities.. So the rescue was built in from the beginning/foundation.. (Imperfect ='s the opposite of life.)

Why not elect all to be saved in this life? :dontknow: But if this is God's sacred drama revealing true from untrue, etc.. a drama needs more than one character..

And since we Know God (Yahweh) shall be "all in all" we know the 2nd resurrection catches up with the 1st resurrection as to life, fulness, and joy, etc..

I guess I've come to think of the last line of Rev chapter 20 as being at the very end of (a very long?) 'day' of judgment - "and if any not was found in the scroll of life having been written" (any still not believing?) "he was cast into the LoF." (ISA interlinear)

Ancient Day Of Atonement was an annual national day of deep repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation (Lev 23:27-32)

Numbers 29:7 "...to afflict your soul.."

Lev 23:29 - "For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.." (ISA says "humbled")..

I think of 'Judgment Day' as a time of weeping and wailing.. outer darkness (for some for a time..)

If the 10 days between Trumpets and DOA represents the 1000 yr millennium, I've come to think of an all important Judgment Day as lasting 500 years, because of the 5 days between DOA and Tabernacles.

To me, history needs a very thorough Judgment/Discernment Day. I can't go back in my thinking.. To rise the not yet saved still in their sins and simply toss them into punishment, seems wasteful and not logical.. If election is onLy via HiS election, why should the non-elect's coming to the knowledge of the faith/redemption be any more stringent than for those of the first. And every age, the great evils will be clearly vanquished and exposed.. "The Queen of the south will rise up in judgment toward this generation.." "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord.." Ps 22:27.

I hope this post is not over long! :doh: