Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?

[Dandelion]

I believe it is always important to go to Scripture, and confirm our thoughts and beliefs.

As for being taught about Hell.......I was definitely raised in an atmosphere of believing in Hell, as well as Purgatory. Hell was very real to me, as a very young child. My neighborhood, my culture, and my family greatly enjoyed the concept, actually. They enjoyed thinking who, of the people they disliked, were going to spend an eternity there.

I know a lot of people who are going to be VERY disappointed.   :rolllol:

D.

[CST]

One cannot convince someone of what they do not know. It was through terrible loneliness and isolation that I came to know how deep God's love is. And, His Spirit carried me through terrible darkness and evil. I consider myself very blessed to have gone through what I did. I would probably
never had come to know God the way I do, otherwise. What to this world is horror, God has used for my good.

So, that is why I can say and think as I do. And I am eternally grateful to my 'Abba' father who could turn my sad story into incredible joy.

I was blessed to be a blessing......so I must shout my story from the mountain top, which I happily do.

D.

Very true. We do, of course, try to impart to people things that they don't know. This is teaching. God attempts to teach us things He wants us to know and we all try to teach our own children, if we have them, things we want them to know, we try to teach friends and neighbours too sometimes.

But this can be very hard if people aren't willing to learn, which can be sadly too frequent for all of us. But this doesn't stop trying so we're often learning anyway through both our good and less good experiences. How long it can take to learn from the less good ones can be a real downer though.

Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My  :2c: on this post....

Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.  Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true.  In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens.  I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE


I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker

Sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.....I did not get to read all the responses.

I believe that UR is true, because it rings true, as to who God is.

I told a story on another topic last night, and took it off, as I felt it was not appropriate. But, I will repost it in response to this subject.

One night, I saw my daughter, standing at a bus stop, after midnight. It was cold and windy; there was no one on the streets, in that upper-class suburb of Westchester......just a handful of cars passing. She was 18, and despite my pleas, had left us to live with a very objectionable boyfriend, who turned out to be a much worse influence that I had originally suspected. She was supposed to be living in the dorm, of the college across the street from the bus stop, but she was actually living with him.....and neglecting her studies, doing so. She had only entered the college as an honor student, about 3 months prior.

I tried my best to get her to take a ride with me, to wherever she needed to go, but she refused. I was not surprised, but when I had to leave her there, at that bus stop, my heart was broken. The image of her standing there could still hurt, but I rarely allow myself to think about it. ( I almost forgot...I waited in the car, until the bus came, a bit away from where she was standing, so I could see her get on the bus, safely, at least.)

I know how much I love my daughter......and I also know that God loves her and I and all of us, far more. And, I know all the promises He has made to us......and I know His word is true.

Yes, we will be held accountable.....but, in the end, love will overcome all.

And, the verse in 1Corinthians13:18 always echoes in my heart......Love never fails.

I, as a human can fail, but He cannot. And, because He cannot fail, and because of His infinite love; because He is love........ He will take us all safely home.

And Jesus will truly be victorious, because all God's children will be saved, and we will truly be the Body of Christ. The devil will have no fame or claim to any one of us.....Christ alone will have overcome death and sin and despair.

As, I believe, it should be and must be.

Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

Romans 14:10 - 12

...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

D.

I love that! I'm glad you reposted it, D. Some great thoughts! ..the whole "God is love" .."He is Almighty" but He will lose 3/4's of humanity can't ever jive.

-----
But truly, for all to consider, as said (sort of) all each one can do is be a "good Berean" and search and study the scripture for ourselves. And that logically would include digging into the original languages used.. And maybe some of the mindset of the time, though Yahweh of course is beyond that as is truth. Even if logic alone has convinced us - which, "the heart is deceitful above all things" - For me logic came first in that first blush of first love.. and I loved His Word also. Luckily I've always been a bit of a spiritual hermit so His Word is what I've had. And His Spirit of course, as is the promise. "you shall hear a voice behind thee.. this is the way go ye in it". - I think that is rather badly paraphrased, but that's how I remember the verse. My daughter's on my computer right now.. and I gave up using the concordant books :Chinscratch: wonder where those are..?

If you're not taught hell and never embraced it, it's not very difficult..

Lazarus Short's thread "heaven yes, hell no" going through each book of the Bible looking for and finding no references to 'hell' is really good. (Can see some things differently perhaps..? but the main purpose rings very true and is turning out really good.)

Sheol of the Old Testament, remember, was the grave "where all go" where Jacob? Job? asked God to "hide him" and where there is "no knowing or doing"... Then voila, in the New Testament we are supposed to believe now there is this huge fire awaiting most of mankind.. Besides, that sneakily sounds a lot more lie Baal to me.. And the Persephone type myths.. Egypt's involved levels and fire..

And if we ask Him, He will minister to and guide us.. It is all in His Word. We can take Him at His Word. His Word is His oath.
       :Peace2: :gsmile: :2c:

"Come now and let us reason together," (Isaiah 1:8)

Not the best evidence going half at least the translations express the verse differently but I'd have thought this translation very much suits the spirit of Isaiah who employs reason and logic rather a lot.

People are very flawed but I don't think are reason is really very far from God's we just pervert it frequently it we don't like some of its conclusions. We do have limited knowledge though which can affect our starting point.

There's actually a lot of "new" things we're supposed to believe because it's in the New Testament. You'd struggle to find support for the Christian concept of Satan outside Job in the Old Testament, and that's ambiguous, the New Testament supposedly contains loads of support.

I believe it is always important to go to Scripture, and confirm our thoughts and beliefs.

As for being taught about Hell.......I was definitely raised in an atmosphere of believing in Hell, as well as Purgatory. Hell was very real to me, as a very young child. My neighborhood, my culture, and my family greatly enjoyed the concept, actually. They enjoyed thinking who, of the people they disliked, were going to spend an eternity there.

I know a lot of people who are going to be VERY disappointed.   :rolllol:

D.

Very true.

Unfortunately, far too often, we'll only go to the parts of scripture that we can use to confirm our thoughts and beliefs.

A lot of people are going to be disappointed. And then they'll probably go to Hell until they learn why they shouldn't be disappointed.

That's quite sad, sorry for them. Hoping they don't.

[Dandelion]

Quote from CST:

Very true. We do, of course, try to impart to people things that they don't know. This is teaching. God attempts to teach us things He wants us to know and we all try to teach our own children, if we have them, things we want them to know, we try to teach friends and neighbours too sometimes.

But this can be very hard if people aren't willing to learn, which can be sadly too frequent for all of us. But this doesn't stop trying so we're often learning anyway through both our good and less good experiences. How long it can take to learn from the less good ones can be a real downer though.


I am a Special Ed.Teacher. Yes, of course, you are correct. We teach each other all types of things. I love to teach, and it is like the air I breathe, to me. I guess what I was trying to say, is when something is not in your experience, it is hard to impart that information to you.....you might have no reference point to understand it.....at least not in the depth and intensity of it, which is sometimes needed. Some people have not needed to see how tremendously huge God's love is, because they had human love to fill the gaps. When all is striped of us, and there is nothing else but God, we realize just how incredible He is. And, that is usually when He is able to teach us the most.

Yea, I think that is what I was trying to say.    :Chin scratch:

As far as only going to scripture that confirms what we want to believe, I would hope that most of us would quickly realize how useless that is and in the long run, very counter-productive. I have been blessed to been introduced to studying scripture, since a child, and I am eternally grateful for that. My Dad, as well as my revolutionary, Ursuline nuns, introduced me long, long ago. And, thanks to my Dad love of literature, he made sure there were always Bibles in the house.

D.

[CST]

Quote from CST:

Very true. We do, of course, try to impart to people things that they don't know. This is teaching. God attempts to teach us things He wants us to know and we all try to teach our own children, if we have them, things we want them to know, we try to teach friends and neighbours too sometimes.

But this can be very hard if people aren't willing to learn, which can be sadly too frequent for all of us. But this doesn't stop trying so we're often learning anyway through both our good and less good experiences. How long it can take to learn from the less good ones can be a real downer though.


I am a Special Ed.Teacher. Yes, of course, you are correct. We teach each other all types of things. I love to teach, and it is like the air I breathe, to me. I guess what I was trying to say, is when something is not in your experience, it is hard to impart that information to you.....you might have no reference point to understand it.....at least not in the depth and intensity of it, which is sometimes needed. Some people have not needed to see how tremendously huge God's love is, because they had human love to fill the gaps. When all is striped of us, and there is nothing else but God, we realize just how incredible He is. And, that is usually when He is able to teach us the most.

Yea, I think that is what I was trying to say.    :Chin scratch:

As far as only going to scripture that confirms what we want to believe, I would hope that most of us would quickly realize how useless that is and in the long run, very counter-productive. I have been blessed to been introduced to studying scripture, since a child, and I am eternally grateful for that. My Dad, as well as my revolutionary, Ursuline nuns, introduced me long, long ago. And, thanks to my Dad love of literature, he made sure there were always Bibles in the house.

D.

I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.

However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.

People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.

I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.

[marie glen]

I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.

However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.

People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.

I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.

What a contrast that will be.. this life of imPerfection as compared to life when God becomes "all in all"

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28

"I will write my law on their heart and on their mind" Jeremiah 33:?  ...the full understanding of good from evil? (life from death/nonlife :2c: )

:Chinscratch: the torah.. instruction.. Interesting! thank you! (I always think, what is the best teacher?)

I think the myth of hell blasphemes God's 100% good character every day.. And I figure, no wonder so many don't (cannot) believe..
How happy (and peaceful!) to know that "with God all things are possible" and "He desires all to be saved".. "His Word will not return to Him void, but will accomplish all which He sent it forth to do" (I hope I quoted that right.. Is 55:?)
                :Peace2:

[Dandelion]

I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.

However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.

People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.

I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.

What a contrast that will be.. this life of imPerfection as compared to life when God becomes "all in all"

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28

"I will write my law on their heart and on their mind" Jeremiah 33:?  ...the full understanding of good from evil? (life from death/nonlife :2c: )

:Chinscratch: the torah.. instruction.. Interesting! thank you! (I always think, what is the best teacher?)

I think the myth of hell blasphemes God's 100% good character every day.. And I figure, no wonder so many don't (cannot) believe..
How happy (and peaceful!) to know that "with God all things are possible" and "He desires all to be saved".. "His Word will not return to Him void, but will accomplish all which He sent it forth to do" (I hope I quoted that right.. Is 55:?)
                :Peace2:

I could have easily come up with the conclusion that the world is a very cold and cruel place, as many have.

What made the difference for me, that instead of that, I have come to see the immense love of God?

Perhaps that I always clung to my faith, despite everything, from a very small child? Was it God's grace, alone, that I was able to comprehend, through the Holy Spirit? Was it my searching for the truth......a combination of all of this? Was it the wonderful people that God put in my path, throughout my life, that gave me the courage to go on, through Him?

I really don't know........I know that God has always been there for me, now. I went through many very dark valleys, but I always clung to God. I would bet I was a very depressed child, due to my circumstances. Yet, I never gave up; always tried to keep going.

Perhaps I just felt God's presence and finally recognized it, for what it was.

Whatever the reason, I know I am blessed. And, I know I need to tell my story to others, to give them hope. I need to pass the torch. I want to be Jesus in the flesh for other people.

It is the highest honor, my greatest privilege I will ever see on this side of heaven.

I know that it is to God that the Glory belongs....of that, I am certain. And, I am eternally grateful.

D.

[CST]

I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.

However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.

People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.

I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.

What a contrast that will be.. this life of imPerfection as compared to life when God becomes "all in all"

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28

"I will write my law on their heart and on their mind" Jeremiah 33:?  ...the full understanding of good from evil? (life from death/nonlife :2c: )

:Chinscratch: the torah.. instruction.. Interesting! thank you! (I always think, what is the best teacher?)

I think the myth of hell blasphemes God's 100% good character every day.. And I figure, no wonder so many don't (cannot) believe..
How happy (and peaceful!) to know that "with God all things are possible" and "He desires all to be saved".. "His Word will not return to Him void, but will accomplish all which He sent it forth to do" (I hope I quoted that right.. Is 55:?)
                :Peace2:

Very true.

And the myth of Hell, utterly blasphemies God but I think this is not the thread to go into that. I think if you have misquoted I wold the spirit is represented sufficiently for not to be misled.

I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.

However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.

People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.

I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.

What a contrast that will be.. this life of imPerfection as compared to life when God becomes "all in all"

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28

"I will write my law on their heart and on their mind" Jeremiah 33:?  ...the full understanding of good from evil? (life from death/nonlife :2c: )

:Chinscratch: the torah.. instruction.. Interesting! thank you! (I always think, what is the best teacher?)

I think the myth of hell blasphemes God's 100% good character every day.. And I figure, no wonder so many don't (cannot) believe..
How happy (and peaceful!) to know that "with God all things are possible" and "He desires all to be saved".. "His Word will not return to Him void, but will accomplish all which He sent it forth to do" (I hope I quoted that right.. Is 55:?)
                :Peace2:

I could have easily come up with the conclusion that the world is a very cold and cruel place, as many have.

What made the difference for me, that instead of that, I have come to see the immense love of God?

Perhaps that I always clung to my faith, despite everything, from a very small child? Was it God's grace, alone, that I was able to comprehend, through the Holy Spirit? Was it my searching for the truth......a combination of all of this? Was it the wonderful people that God put in my path, throughout my life, that gave me the courage to go on, through Him?

I really don't know........I know that God has always been there for me, now. I went through many very dark valleys, but I always clung to God. I would bet I was a very depressed child, due to my circumstances. Yet, I never gave up; always tried to keep going.

Perhaps I just felt God's presence and finally recognized it, for what it was.

Whatever the reason, I know I am blessed. And, I know I need to tell my story to others, to give them hope. I need to pass the torch. I want to be Jesus in the flesh for other people.

It is the highest honor, my greatest privilege I will ever see on this side of heaven.

I know that it is to God that the Glory belongs....of that, I am certain. And, I am eternally grateful.

D.

And we're glad and happy that you have received that grace. Good look with your continued goal of spreading it.

[Andrew]

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28


Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.

[GodIsLove]

So if we are going to interpret it as u said, that it's only those who are "in Christ" then let's look at the Bible to see who will be in Christ:

Romans 14:11
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Isaiah
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

For anyone who says the confession will be forced, let's see what the Bible says about how someone confesses that Jesus is Lord...

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Bam!! 

:dsunny:

[Dandelion]

Just posted this one, the other day:

1 John 4:

15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

[CST]

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28


Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.

Yeah, people have tried to make this argument before, usually Biblical translators deal with it by by altering the syntax and writing it exactly as you express '...as all in Adam will die, so all in Christ will be made alive.' In which case the latter is true, but that's not what it says, 'in Adam all die' is substantially different from 'all in Adam die'. The latter of course suggest that all are in Adam through no fault of their own but will remain there unless they choose to migrate into Christ (which they can't do unaided). The former, that Christ is getting everyone to migrate from Adam to Himself is the only one that actually makes sense in the context.

[trettep]

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28


Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.

Hi Adam, there has only been one that was not in Adam because He was not born of Adam's seed and that is Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin for if He had not been, then He would be under the same curse as a member of Adam's Body.  So the verse is as follows:

1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, 
1Co 15:23  and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 
1Co 15:24  then—the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father,

The ALL in Adam is the same ALL that shall be made alive in Christ.

[darryl]

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28


Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.

  20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

! Corinthians 15:26, 'The last enemy that will be abolished is death'....there it is right there....the lake of fire, which is literally in Greek, 'death the second', is to be abolished, as its the 'last enemy'...it follows that the unbelievers who are in the lake of fire will be released from it as it will be abolished....hope I've explained this reasonably clearly...that's my UR take on it anyway.

[CST]

"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28


Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.

Hi Adam, there has only been one that was not in Adam because He was not born of Adam's seed and that is Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin for if He had not been, then He would be under the same curse as a member of Adam's Body.  So the verse is as follows:

1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23  and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
1Co 15:24  then—the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father,

The ALL in Adam is the same ALL that shall be made alive in Christ.

This has started to worry me of late because, while I'm aware that the 'all' in Adam must be equal to the 'all' in Christ I am increasingly aware that 'all' to the Pauline reader cannot be equal to the 'all' of the modern reader. I know this because I know our awareness of the size and scope of the world and its population has increased vastly. When we think of the world we think of places and peoples that Paul and his readers had likely never imagined. Does that make a difference, I'm not sure? I'm certainly glad that Romans 5 is also in the New Testament so we can read that:

"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:" (Rom 5:20)

A line which increases the scope of salvation to hitherto unimaginable degrees, or it seems that way anyway.

[WhiteWings]

Let's assume Paul thought the world is only 1000 square mile in size.
The HS who inspired Paul's words knew every square inch of the whole planet.

But let's play :-)
1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die,

Is that only about sinners that live in the 1000 square miles Paul knew? Or perhaps only the 100 square mile Adam knew.


Does Scripture state only people in the 100 square mile Adam knew die. All others have eternal life?
Obviously not.



1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,


If all means 100 sqm, then indeed Christ saves only those people BUT there is no need to save all others because they never died in Adam to begin with.

If all mean 100% of this planet died in Adam, then Christ's redemptive work automatically scales up to 100% of the planet.


Then there is the argument that all doesn't really mean all. A rather weak argument...
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

"as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

"The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one."

Are those verses only about the 100 sqm Adam knew about? People living in what  is now known as Europe and America, were all good? Those people aren't children of man?

My point is, if you scale things up, you have to scale up both parts of the verse.


BTW, the ancients knew a large part of the world. The Joseph than buried Jesus owned tin mines in England. Way before Jesus was born Jews and Phoenicians sailed to America.

[darryl]

good point !  :thumbsup:

[darryl]

An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;

Who wants to go to hell?   I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?

dunno...most wouldn't but some people are masochists and seem to enjoy pain....anyway, eternal hell doesn't exist and nobody ends up there forever.

[CST]

Let's assume Paul thought the world is only 1000 square mile in size.
The HS who inspired Paul's words knew every square inch of the whole planet.

But let's play :-)
1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die,

Is that only about sinners that live in the 1000 square miles Paul knew? Or perhaps only the 100 square mile Adam knew.


Does Scripture state only people in the 100 square mile Adam knew die. All others have eternal life?
Obviously not.



1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,


If all means 100 sqm, then indeed Christ saves only those people BUT there is no need to save all others because they never died in Adam to begin with.

If all mean 100% of this planet died in Adam, then Christ's redemptive work automatically scales up to 100% of the planet.


Then there is the argument that all doesn't really mean all. A rather weak argument...
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

"as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

"The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one."

Are those verses only about the 100 sqm Adam knew about? People living in what  is now known as Europe and America, were all good? Those people aren't children of man?

My point is, if you scale things up, you have to scale up both parts of the verse.


BTW, the ancients knew a large part of the world. The Joseph than buried Jesus owned tin mines in England. Way before Jesus was born Jews and Phoenicians sailed to America.

True, but their are also passages in the Bible that suggest some people are in fact righteous in spite of the passages that say no-one is. I concede that it's not helpful for this conversation that I can't remember those passages at present so we can properly scrutinise them and show why they don't contradict but they are there.

Obviously the 'none righteous' passages are more reliable than the passages that suggest there are righteous people. If there ever were righteous people we can't see any now which makes the concept very questionable. Sometimes the Bible seems to overstate character's  righteousness even while limiting it. Supposedly David pleased God in everything he did except the incident with Uriah the Hittite (1 Kings 15:5). Right, so what about that census he shouldn't have taken? David sounds about as close to righteous as it's possible for an standard human to be here. Certainly a lot more righteous than us.

What are your sources on the tin mines in England and the Jews in America because I suspect there are some that would dismiss them in the same breath as they dismiss evidence for the theory of evolution by natural selection or the geological age of the Earth.

An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;

Who wants to go to hell?   I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?

dunno...most wouldn't but some people are masochists and seem to enjoy pain....anyway, eternal hell doesn't exist and nobody ends up there forever.

I don't know much about it, but I get the impression masochists only enjoy pain when then have some measure of control over it, if it were inflicted on them in forms they couldn't control I doubt they'd be so pleased.

[jabcat]

Quick insert..IMO, there is none righteous.   IN OURSELVES.  The only righteousness anyone (except Jesus) has is imputed* to them/us.   "I yet not I"... :2c:

*ascribe (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to someone by virtue of a similar quality in another (Him)

So yes, I agree, no real contradiction in the scriptures, more so, "what does it mean".  :)

[GodIsLove]

There are a fair amount of passages about seeking righteousness which isn't the same as being righteous.

Here's some references to righteous people:

Surely the righteous will never be shaken;
they will be remembered forever.
Psalm 112:6

Ill-gotten treasures have no lasting value,
but righteousness delivers from death.
Proverbs 10:2

The righteous person may have many troubles,
but the Lord delivers him from them all.
Psalm 34:19

Cast your cares on the Lord
and he will sustain you;
he will never let
the righteous be shaken.
Psalm 55:22

All of the ones I could find were in the psalms. Is there poetic license allowed because they are songs?

Most of the references to righteousness in other books like the NT have to do with GOD'S righteousness which makes sense.

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 1:17

So maybe the no one righteous refers to us on our own and any reference to righteousness is from God?

I feel like Bill and Ted from that movie from the 80s. "Righteous dude!"

[jabcat]

yeah, i kind of look at it like "there's a better part of me".  and it's not really me.  It's HIM in me.  (His) Spirit instead of (my) flesh.

[MusicLover123]

yeah, i kind of look at it like "there's a better part of me".  and it's not really me.  It's HIM in me.  (His) Spirit instead of (my) flesh.

Hopefully these verses are relevant. From the Concordant:

Php 1:20 in accord with my premonition and expectation, that in nothing shall I be put to shame, but with all boldness, as always, now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether through life or through death.

1Pe 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear

[WhiteWings]

True, but their are also passages in the Bible that suggest some people are in fact righteous in spite of the passages that say no-one is. I concede that it's not helpful for this conversation that I can't remember those passages at present so we can properly scrutinise them and show why they don't contradict but they are there.

Obviously the 'none righteous' passages are more reliable than the passages that suggest there are righteous people. If there ever were righteous people we can't see any now which makes the concept very questionable. Sometimes the Bible seems to overstate character's  righteousness even while limiting it. Supposedly David pleased God in everything he did except the incident with Uriah the Hittite (1 Kings 15:5). Right, so what about that census he shouldn't have taken? David sounds about as close to righteous as it's possible for an standard human to be here. Certainly a lot more righteous than us.

What are your sources on the tin mines in England and the Jews in America because I suspect there are some that would dismiss them in the same breath as they dismiss evidence for the theory of evolution by natural selection or the geological age of the Earth.

First the easy part. Searh for yourself :-)
I haven't really researched it but if you Google for "joseph of arimathea tin mines england" you get a lot of pages to read.
Digging a bit deeper and you will find he founded the first church in England.

Google for "ancient jews and phoenicians"

In an American cave the ten commandments in ancient Hebrew script were found. That should point to very ancient travel. But when following the 'Indians decent from Hebrews' theories it may just as well been them. Modernday linguists found that Indian languages contain a lot of ancient Hebrew. But the theory is that they didn't sail, but walk to America. Which is possible if you walk from Israel all the way trough Russia and then to Cananda. What's now the Bering Strait was once a landbridge due to lower water levels etc.  :Chinscratch:




About rightous. Yeah I know which contradictions you are talking about. Abraham and Noach were rightous and friends of God.
I don't have a verse for you right now; I'm in a hurry or just plain lazy...
In the NT there is a whole passage about being in Christ and keeping the law.
It's said that seeking salvation by doing the works of the law is allowed, is possible. But then all the law has to be kept. Only Christ succeeded in that approach. The other way to gain salvation is through/in Christ.

When you strip away all stuff not strictly needed for this discussion something interesting surfaces.
If we have two Jews who are 100% the same; one seeks salvation in by keeping the Laws and the other one in Christ, then the first one fails. The second one succeeds while he commited the same sins as the first one.
That person is condemed by the Law he follows.

So let's assume Jesus isn't born yet. God looks down and states not one is rightous. Then God looks down again shortly after Jesus died and He will probebly state He finds rightous people in/through His Son. The very same people with the same sins.


For pre-Moses people when all those laws weren't given yet, it was easier not to live by that law, simply because it was unknown.
But Scripture also says people did still sin even they weren't under that law because God never told anyone about it. But it was not held against them.

Abraham was the friend of God (James 2:23). He believed and honored God without keeping all those laws. Maybe that's the difference. But obviously not so for David.





But should we really have that discussion?
All saved isn't about keeping laws and stuff because everyone agrees that not possible. For some because they think God threw the Law in the trash when Jesus rose from the dead, for others because they know keeping the law 100% isn't possible, etc.
Even Jews believe that. Following the Law is needed according to them, but it still requires grace from God to reach their goal.

So at the very end of whatever discussion we land on the topic of grace. Many claim grace only comes through believing in Christ. All who don't are doomed. That's a overly simplified view. For example, is God's friend Abraham now in hell because he didn't speak favorble words about Jesus? Would it be like this?
Abraham dies and appears before the Judgement Seat. Then God say "Howdy Abraham my big friend! See that man sitting at the righthand side of me. That's Christ my Son. You never believed in Him my friend Abraham. The fact that He was born 1000s of years after you doesn't matter. I'll dump you in hell, until never my good friend!"

So the discussion shouldn't be who's rightous, who's sinless, who deserves heaven, etc.
The discussion should be:
- On which grounds, conditions does theFather gives His grace?
- When does He give His grace?

Only when someone can answer that question, that person can prove the extent of 'all'.





Also read the verses in my signature.

[CST]

There are a fair amount of passages about seeking righteousness which isn't the same as being righteous.

Here's some references to righteous people:

Surely the righteous will never be shaken;
they will be remembered forever.
Psalm 112:6

Ill-gotten treasures have no lasting value,
but righteousness delivers from death.
Proverbs 10:2

The righteous person may have many troubles,
but the Lord delivers him from them all.
Psalm 34:19

Cast your cares on the Lord
and he will sustain you;
he will never let
the righteous be shaken.
Psalm 55:22

All of the ones I could find were in the psalms. Is there poetic license allowed because they are songs?

Most of the references to righteousness in other books like the NT have to do with GOD'S righteousness which makes sense.

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 1:17

So maybe the no one righteous refers to us on our own and any reference to righteousness is from God?

I feel like Bill and Ted from that movie from the 80s. "Righteous dude!"

Quite so, I have image the poetic license bit may be the correct reading here given that it refers to quite a lot of general people here quite possible through all history. When you add in the verses that say there are none righteous it suddenly is basically referring to no-one.

True, but their are also passages in the Bible that suggest some people are in fact righteous in spite of the passages that say no-one is. I concede that it's not helpful for this conversation that I can't remember those passages at present so we can properly scrutinise them and show why they don't contradict but they are there.

Obviously the 'none righteous' passages are more reliable than the passages that suggest there are righteous people. If there ever were righteous people we can't see any now which makes the concept very questionable. Sometimes the Bible seems to overstate character's  righteousness even while limiting it. Supposedly David pleased God in everything he did except the incident with Uriah the Hittite (1 Kings 15:5). Right, so what about that census he shouldn't have taken? David sounds about as close to righteous as it's possible for an standard human to be here. Certainly a lot more righteous than us.

What are your sources on the tin mines in England and the Jews in America because I suspect there are some that would dismiss them in the same breath as they dismiss evidence for the theory of evolution by natural selection or the geological age of the Earth.

First the easy part. Searh for yourself :-)
I haven't really researched it but if you Google for "joseph of arimathea tin mines england" you get a lot of pages to read.
Digging a bit deeper and you will find he founded the first church in England.

Google for "ancient jews and phoenicians"

In an American cave the ten commandments in ancient Hebrew script were found. That should point to very ancient travel. But when following the 'Indians decent from Hebrews' theories it may just as well been them. Modernday linguists found that Indian languages contain a lot of ancient Hebrew. But the theory is that they didn't sail, but walk to America. Which is possible if you walk from Israel all the way trough Russia and then to Cananda. What's now the Bering Strait was once a landbridge due to lower water levels etc.  :Chinscratch:




About rightous. Yeah I know which contradictions you are talking about. Abraham and Noach were rightous and friends of God.
I don't have a verse for you right now; I'm in a hurry or just plain lazy...
In the NT there is a whole passage about being in Christ and keeping the law.
It's said that seeking salvation by doing the works of the law is allowed, is possible. But then all the law has to be kept. Only Christ succeeded in that approach. The other way to gain salvation is through/in Christ.

When you strip away all stuff not strictly needed for this discussion something interesting surfaces.
If we have two Jews who are 100% the same; one seeks salvation in by keeping the Laws and the other one in Christ, then the first one fails. The second one succeeds while he commited the same sins as the first one.
That person is condemed by the Law he follows.

So let's assume Jesus isn't born yet. God looks down and states not one is rightous. Then God looks down again shortly after Jesus died and He will probebly state He finds rightous people in/through His Son. The very same people with the same sins.


For pre-Moses people when all those laws weren't given yet, it was easier not to live by that law, simply because it was unknown.
But Scripture also says people did still sin even they weren't under that law because God never told anyone about it. But it was not held against them.

Abraham was the friend of God (James 2:23). He believed and honored God without keeping all those laws. Maybe that's the difference. But obviously not so for David.





But should we really have that discussion?
All saved isn't about keeping laws and stuff because everyone agrees that not possible. For some because they think God threw the Law in the trash when Jesus rose from the dead, for others because they know keeping the law 100% isn't possible, etc.
Even Jews believe that. Following the Law is needed according to them, but it still requires grace from God to reach their goal.

So at the very end of whatever discussion we land on the topic of grace. Many claim grace only comes through believing in Christ. All who don't are doomed. That's a overly simplified view. For example, is God's friend Abraham now in hell because he didn't speak favorble words about Jesus? Would it be like this?
Abraham dies and appears before the Judgement Seat. Then God say "Howdy Abraham my big friend! See that man sitting at the righthand side of me. That's Christ my Son. You never believed in Him my friend Abraham. The fact that He was born 1000s of years after you doesn't matter. I'll dump you in hell, until never my good friend!"

So the discussion shouldn't be who's rightous, who's sinless, who deserves heaven, etc.
The discussion should be:
- On which grounds, conditions does theFather gives His grace?
- When does He give His grace?

Only when someone can answer that question, that person can prove the extent of 'all'.





Also read the verses in my signature.

Yeah, when I brought up the tin mines and the Americas in reply to you mentioning them I did so in the wider context of scriptural veracity. I don't think it's important if those things are true or not (although Jews in America is presumably very interesting to Mormons) because it is because the scope of scripture. But I know that if I did research it say, the flood narrative I'd have huge problems in regard to Egyptian archaeology because Egypt has an unbroken history that passes through when all but Noah was meant to be drowned, yet it is important to that story that the decedents of Noah are the fathers of all Biblical nations including Egypt. Although I can't thinking that Egyptian records sound suspiciously perfect.

It's said that seeking salvation by doing the works of the law is allowed, is possible. But then all the law has to be kept.

Is it be or does this passage contradict it's self, keeping all of the law is not possible, therefore salvation by keeping the is not possible. You meant theoretically possible didn't you. Sorry to nitpick but I feel we're involve in a conversation where accuracy may be important.

Only Christ succeeded in that approach.

Did He, not by the letter, certainly. I otherwise wonder how much mitigation is allowed in keeping the law. Christ died by crucifixion (not His fault) even though there is no precedent for this in the law. According to the law the punishment for blasphemy (what Jesus was officially executed for) was death by stoning but as I am led to believe (despite the ironic opening of Life of Brian) the Jews weren't actually allowed to stone people because if they wanted to execute someone they had to go through their Roman occupiers who proscribed crucifixion.

But the law says that Jews are to execute those worthy of death by stoning (or burning in the case of Priest daughters who choose prostitution), to show no pity, and all society is to participate in this act. Is it sinful not to participate in this process? What sort of mitigation does God give when you can't?

Even though Jesus had no sin did He participate in certain sacrifices for sin to keep up appearances, because it might look weird if He didn't? Maybe not, He doesn't sound like the type to pander but I wonder how He could have avoided it before He became of age.

For pre-Moses people when all those laws weren't given yet, it was easier not to live by that law, simply because it was unknown.
But Scripture also says people did still sin even they weren't under that law because God never told anyone about it. But it was not held against them.

Ah, no! Here's the thing. So far as I can tell before the giving of the law God gave one rule to man, which they broke. In the very next generation Cain killed Abel, which I have a few questions about but only one is pertinent here, so far as I can tell God never gave any commandment against killing at this point, yet He still held it against Cain when he slayed his brother and Cain didn't seem surprised by this even though he wasn't comfortable. God never told him fratricide was wrong but he obviously knew it was. And God responded as such.

He supposedly didn't tell people that anything was wrong prior to Moses giving the law to the Israelites but this didn't stop Him drowning the body of them, incinerating the cities of the plain, and heaping plague upon on plague upon the Egyptians. The Bible does say that God didn't impute their sins to people while they weren't under the law but He sure behaved like He did. And the justification for both the destruction of the cities of the plain and the plagues of Egypt was the greatness of the complaint against them. So obviously people knew what sin was and didn't need the law to tell them. Or at east they knew what evil was which was enough for God to respond to it.

Even Jews believe that. Following the Law is needed according to them, but it still requires grace from God to reach their goal.

Since when? If it was before Jesus doesn't that mean Paul introduced precisely nothing new?

So at the very end of whatever discussion we land on the topic of grace. Many claim grace only comes through believing in Christ. All who don't are doomed. That's a overly simplified view. For example, is God's friend Abraham now in hell because he didn't speak favorble words about Jesus? Would it be like this?
Abraham dies and appears before the Judgement Seat. Then God say "Howdy Abraham my big friend! See that man sitting at the righthand side of me. That's Christ my Son. You never believed in Him my friend Abraham. The fact that He was born 1000s of years after you doesn't matter. I'll dump you in hell, until never my good friend!"

Non sequitur: Jesus makes it very clear Abraham knew who He was even if the Old Testament doesn't make it so clear, but appearances of God the Son in the Old Testament can still be recognised by lines like 'I will be with you.'

If Adam really is the forefather of all mankind than that really gives away what the scope of all is, but since that prospect seems to require a lot of incest and blunt trust in the text of the Bible in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary it's not so clear. Perhaps it's enough that in the context of the rest of the Bible, that's what 'Adam' means. I guess that may be what has to be concluded.

[WhiteWings]

Only Christ succeeded in that approach.

Did He, not by the letter, certainly. I otherwise wonder how much mitigation is allowed in keeping the law. Christ died by crucifixion (not His fault) even though there is no precedent for this in the law. According to the law the punishment for blasphemy (what Jesus was officially executed for) was death by stoning but as I am led to believe (despite the ironic opening of Life of Brian) the Jews weren't actually allowed to stone people because if they wanted to execute someone they had to go through their Roman occupiers who proscribed crucifixion.

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/Crucifixion/index.html

For pre-Moses people when all those laws weren't given yet, it was easier not to live by that law, simply because it was unknown.
But Scripture also says people did still sin even they weren't under that law because God never told anyone about it. But it was not held against them.

Ah, no! Here's the thing. So far as I can tell before the giving of the law God gave one rule to man, which they broke. In the very next generation Cain killed Abel, which I have a few questions about but only one is pertinent here, so far as I can tell God never gave any commandment against killing at this point, yet He still held it against Cain when he slayed his brother and Cain didn't seem surprised by this even though he wasn't comfortable. God never told him fratricide was wrong but he obviously knew it was. And God responded as such.

We aren't told the full story about Eden I think. We know God did forbid eating from the tree, but we were told after the fact.
When Adam was kicked out of Eden they brought sacrifices to God, but no such command is written.
God commanded them to work, but that word is (strongly connected to) worship.
So perhaps God gave more rules to Adam than are written down.
God also visited in the cool of the day. Did the only discuss the weather or something more?

He supposedly didn't tell people that anything was wrong prior to Moses giving the law to the Israelites but this didn't stop Him drowning the body of them, incinerating the cities of the plain, and heaping plague upon on plague upon the Egyptians. The Bible does say that God didn't impute their sins to people while they weren't under the law but He sure behaved like He did. And the justification for both the destruction of the cities of the plain and the plagues of Egypt was the greatness of the complaint against them. So obviously people knew what sin was and didn't need the law to tell them. Or at east they knew what evil was which was enough for God to respond to it.

Indeed they knew. The law was written on their heart. Most  believe that's a NT thing, but it's found in Psalms too.
Law of no law, they did know what orders and threats were. God didn't command the Egyptians to worship Him but just admit defeat as in a war. But there is much more hidden in the plagues. It's written God executed judgement on their gods.
And He did. Every plague relates to a certain god that was ascribe a certain power to. All those plagues mock/destroy that particular power or that particular god. So imo, it was not just about getting the Jews out of Egypt, it was also war against the Egyptian gods.

But I see your point, if sins are not held against them, why punish them?

Even Jews believe that. Following the Law is needed according to them, but it still requires grace from God to reach their goal.

Since when? If it was before Jesus doesn't that mean Paul introduced precisely nothing new?

I mean Jews that never believed in Jesus. Both ancient and present.
Don't ask me where they got it but the ancients believe after death there is a period of correction that ranges from very short to up to 11 or 12 months.
That could align with a lake of fire type of thing.

So at the very end of whatever discussion we land on the topic of grace. Many claim grace only comes through believing in Christ. All who don't are doomed. That's a overly simplified view. For example, is God's friend Abraham now in hell because he didn't speak favorble words about Jesus? Would it be like this?
Abraham dies and appears before the Judgement Seat. Then God say "Howdy Abraham my big friend! See that man sitting at the righthand side of me. That's Christ my Son. You never believed in Him my friend Abraham. The fact that He was born 1000s of years after you doesn't matter. I'll dump you in hell, until never my good friend!"

Non sequitur: Jesus makes it very clear Abraham knew who He was even if the Old Testament doesn't make it so clear, but appearances of God the Son in the Old Testament can still be recognised by lines like 'I will be with you.'

So Abraham know about what Christ was teaching 2000 years ago. About His resurrection etc?

It's a whole different discussion but it's sometimes not so clear who He or Me is. To get an idea of what I mean please read this: http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/BitsAndPieces/angelofgod.html

If Adam really is the forefather of all mankind than that really gives away what the scope of all is, but since that prospect seems to require a lot of incest and blunt trust in the text of the Bible in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary it's not so clear. Perhaps it's enough that in the context of the rest of the Bible, that's what 'Adam' means. I guess that may be what has to be concluded.

I know what you mean. Cain was afraid people attacked him when God sent him away. Attacked by who. How could he found a city etc.
The Hebrew word for Adam can also be read as mankind.

So your point is that 2% of the worldpopulation are of Adam and the other 98% are not. (just making up numbers for the ease of explanation.
If that's so Christ came indeed for a few people.
But it Scripture also states life came in to being trough Christ. The 98% are also life.