An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;
Who wants to go to hell? Couldn't the UR belief just be wishful thinking, trying to use a soft heart, or fearfulness, or just hoping that somehow people really won't go to an eternal hell? Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
I DO!
I want God to burn every last thing out of me that is not like Him.
Salt me with fire, Lord.
Quote from: jabcat on December 08, 2010, 05:46:51 AM
Who wants to go to hell? Couldn't the UR belief just be wishful thinking, trying to use a soft heart, or fearfulness, or just hoping that somehow people really won't go to an eternal hell? Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
Since no one can actually measure up to Gods laws and expectations in the first place, any belief in God in any context could be construed as wishful thinking.
I would suggest that all sects of religious belief is based upon finding things in the Bible that we hope is true.
I hope it is true that God will save all mankind, I guess if God doesn't like it, then perhaps he can sit on a tack. :laughing7: :laughing7:
Quote from: jabcat on December 08, 2010, 05:46:51 AM
An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;
Who wants to go to hell? Couldn't the UR belief just be wishful thinking,
Could it be God isn't a selfish moron like you?
Quotetrying to use a soft heart,
Some hearts are defrosted by nature.
Quoteor fearfulness, or just hoping that somehow people really won't go to an eternal hell? Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?
Matthew 20:1-13
QuoteI mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
David :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2010, 09:10:05 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 08, 2010, 05:46:51 AM
QuoteI mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
David :icon_jokercolor:
...and come through it not even smelling of smoke.
Praise God!
Quote from: jabcat on December 08, 2010, 05:46:51 AM
An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;
Who wants to go to hell? Couldn't the UR belief just be wishful thinking, trying to use a soft heart, or fearfulness, or just hoping that somehow people really won't go to an eternal hell? Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
This is kind of a weird question.
I mean is this guy hoping that hell is true? Is that why he believes there is a hell?
Furthermore you could say this about anything - it really is a non-point.
You just don't believe in aliens because you hope there are no aliens.
OR
You just believe in aliens because you hope there are aliens.
The real point we can gain from this is: what is the purpose of "hope"? Do we hope that our loved ones are not burning forever in pain? Do we hope that the whole world will be saved? Or do we hope that Hitler is burning forever?
Love always hopes, but love is greater than hope.
Eternal hell is "wishful thinking" for those who like revenge on their enemies... funny, Jesus said LOVE your enemy...
Quote from: legoman on December 08, 2010, 11:45:02 PM
This is kind of a weird question.
I mean is this guy hoping that hell is true? Is that why he believes there is a hell?
Hoping hell doesn't exist doesn't make hell less true. That's how I understand the quote.
He is very right about that. But it's equally right to say teaching about hell doesn't make it true.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2010, 12:17:56 AM
Quote from: legoman on December 08, 2010, 11:45:02 PM
This is kind of a weird question.
I mean is this guy hoping that hell is true? Is that why he believes there is a hell?
Hoping hell doesn't exist doesn't make hell less true. That's how I understand the quote.
He is very right about that. But it's equally right to say teaching about hell doesn't make it true.
:2c:
Exactly. I guess its like saying: just because a lot of people teach it doesn't mean it is true. I mean a lot of people teach a lot of things that aren't true. Just look at all the conflicting religions. Simple logic tells us that all of them (or all but one) are not true.
So a lot of people teach hell is true. We hope it is not true. A lot of people teach God doesn't exist. We hope that is not true too...
"weird question"
Could it be the guy just has some doubts, and wonders if UR'ers are just hoping - against what's actually possibly true - so are trying to find a way to more fully believe what they/we do believe? You know, how we might accuse ET'ers of reading everything in the light of their ET beliefs "to make it fit", that the converse could be true for us? Again, maybe honest doubts on the fellow's part - not that he's trying to argue a point, but truly wondering...
I like your humility Jab,
I think there IS wishfull thinking behind UR or I'd call it hopeful thinking.
That's where it started for me, hoping hell was not what I was thought against everything I had been told.
Untill the day I found tentmaker that is.
That day the hope changed into faith and later into action.
But is it wishfull thinking from God's part too?
Doesn't He say, that He wills ALL men be saved?
Shouldn't we be required to hope the same?
Is God the ultimate dreamer?
Does He need to be pinched by the church to bring Him back in reality?
If God wills ALL men to be saved, then I will it too!
Quote from: Quaesitor on December 09, 2010, 12:59:36 AM
I like your humility Jab,
I think there IS wishfull thinking behind UR or I'd call it hopeful thinking.
That's where it started for me, hoping hell was not what I was thought against everything I had been told.
Untill the day I found tentmaker that is.
That day the hope changed into faith and later into action.
Thanks, when you've been wrong so many times, and broken a few times here and there, you learn to at least
work on being a little more humble. Long ways to go, still mess it up :bigGrin: Only with His help/doing it through me. There but for the
grace of God.... :HeartThrob:
Anyway, that's how I came to UR too. Hoping, wishing there was "some other way". Then I was led to J.Preston Eby's work and TM. I believe MANY people such as the guy represented in the OP question truly hope and wish...but just can't quite get past the doubt and fear. Maybe that's part of our job - not convincing, that's up to God - but witnessing and explaining. :thumbsup:
Met a Jehovah Witness lady the other night and when I told her about UR she just answered: Oh I wish it could be true!
Without hesitation I said: Well stop wishing, it is true!
:happygrin:
Quote from: jabcat on December 09, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
"weird question"
Could it be the guy just has some doubts, and wonders if UR'ers are just hoping - against what's actually possibly true - so are trying to find a way to more fully believe what they/we do believe? You know, how we might accuse ET'ers of reading everything in the light of their ET beliefs "to make it fit", that the converse could be true for us? Again, maybe honest doubts on the fellow's part - not that he's trying to argue a point, but truly wondering...
Good point. We didn't get the guys attitude from the OP, so I may have went into "ET defence mode" too quickly.
But I still think its a weird question, simply because what is the alternative? Hoping for eternal torment to be true? Not hoping for anything at all?
IMHO the real good news has hope, but the ET "good news" is hopeless.
Regarding the point of it being wishful thinking and "so couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true"... we all have preconceived biases and will read into what is there. We can't get away from that.
Verse says: It is appointed for man to die once and then the judgment.
ET fryhard thinks: YES they will get what they deserve.
ET "unsure questioner" thinks: I wish it wasn't so, but God's ways must be fair. (he rationalize that ET must be "justice")
UR believer thinks: YES thank god that judgment teaches people righteousness.
So in that sense, we all have "wishful thinking".
And then there is the matter of plain-reading verses.
ETer will say: look it plainly says Jesus will send some away into eternal punishment.
URer will say: look it plainly says God will have all men to be saved.
So who's reading their bias into the verse? But the bias starts to show when you explain that "eternal" doesn't mean eternal..., yet they still insist God will not have all men to be saved...
Coming out of the ET belief was the removing of many biases for me. Some are still there, I am a work in progress...
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on December 09, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
"weird question"
Could it be the guy just has some doubts, and wonders if UR'ers are just hoping - against what's actually possibly true - so are trying to find a way to more fully believe what they/we do believe? You know, how we might accuse ET'ers of reading everything in the light of their ET beliefs "to make it fit", that the converse could be true for us? Again, maybe honest doubts on the fellow's part - not that he's trying to argue a point, but truly wondering...
Assume he is wondering if UR is possibly true; what would help him?
Quote from: legoman on December 09, 2010, 03:32:28 AM
And then there is the matter of plain-reading verses.
ETer will say: look it plainly says Jesus will send some away into eternal punishment.
URer will say: look it plainly says God will have all men to be saved.
So who's reading their bias into the verse? But the bias starts to show when you explain that "eternal" doesn't mean eternal..., yet they still insist God will not have all men to be saved...
Coming out of the ET belief was the removing of many biases for me. Some are still there, I am a work in progress...
The ETers has a much stronger case when plain reading. In fact teh URer has no case at all.
That's why reasoning like the first post of this thread isn't going to help anyone.
The verse backs up ET claims pretty well. UR reasoning would not change that.
So the only way to help that guy if he's really seeking is to explain what eternal and punishment mean.
And that can only be done by showing the Greek words. Using ET repected lexicons like Strong/Thayer and then show verses with the same word that clearly show the words at least sometimes have a different meaning.
Otherwise it will just become a yes/no fight. Without proof everybody is right :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2010, 09:22:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 09, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
"weird question"
Could it be the guy just has some doubts, and wonders if UR'ers are just hoping - against what's actually possibly true - so are trying to find a way to more fully believe what they/we do believe? You know, how we might accuse ET'ers of reading everything in the light of their ET beliefs "to make it fit", that the converse could be true for us? Again, maybe honest doubts on the fellow's part - not that he's trying to argue a point, but truly wondering...
Assume he is wondering if UR is possibly true; what would help him?
Very good. :thumbsup: I was thinking about this about an hour ago; of course the main thing with the following is prayer and asking God - but what if the guy's at the place of "I believe [at least some], help my unbelief"?
I think this is a tough one. Its like the question: how do we make someone else believe this? Or why doesn't everyone else believe this? And of course we can't "make" someone else believe anything.
Generally we only believe what we want to believe.
I truly think no one can believe in UR until God opens their eyes. You can explain all the mistranslations/misunderstandings/misinterpretations and clear verses that teach UR and such until you are blue in the face, but none of that will matter if they aren't able to see it.
And the only one that can make them see is God. Now it is true that God may be using our explanations and discussions as the seed that will eventually make them see, but it is all up to God.
That's what makes it so frustrating sometimes. And that is what also teaches us patience.
Agreed on all counts.
Quote from: legoman on December 09, 2010, 07:04:53 PMAnd that is what also teaches us patience.
I have mixed feelings about that....
Patience is a virtue. But I think one of the exceptions is when helping others. Shouldn't we very impatient in the case of helping?
I know some feel fine in their ET doctrine; but if I read about peopel committing suicide because of ET stress. Or a mother drowing her 4 children before becoming to an accountable age I think patience is not a virtue.
Jesus also had very little patience with false teachings.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2010, 09:56:13 PM
Quote from: legoman on December 09, 2010, 07:04:53 PMAnd that is what also teaches us patience.
I have mixed feelings about that....
Patience is a virtue. But I think one of the exceptions is when helping others. Shouldn't we very impatient in the case of helping?
I know some feel fine in their ET doctrine; but if I read about peopel committing suicide because of ET stress. Or a mother drowing her 4 children before becoming to an accountable age I think patience is not a virtue.
Jesus also had very little patience with false teachings.
:2c:
I think maybe you are making patience and perseverance mutually exclusive? Patience doesn't necessarily mean sitting by doing nothing waiting for something to happen. Patience means realizing we won't get what we want right now and being ok with that because it is ultimately in God's hands.
But we are also told to persevere. Perseverance means to keep trying, keep helping, keep spreading the good news. Don't give up. Even if you don't see results right away (that's the patience part).
Both patience and are perseverance are part of love.
This might seem strange, but why is the ET and ED teaching accepted so freely and believed? I mean human beings just kind of say o well Im going to hell if Im not good enough for heaven. Dont they even question that kind of religion and reasoning? I dont mean to get off topic but it sure seems strange that man just accepts a loving God with that kind of punishment if one dont tow his line. :sigh:
Because most people let others do the thinking. That's not just so in religion but in about every area of society
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2010, 12:01:49 AM
Because most people let others do the thinking. That's not just so in religion but in about every area of society
You know, there is a Christian church on here, popular ED and the like and they now have doctrines such as "baptism of the dead" where one can repent for another (??!!)
Check out jtscentral.com
My point is whatever their leader would tell them, the church members would automatically accept it hook, line and sinker...
Jesus said we should judge for ourselves what is right - but leaning towards the idea that human wisdom is frail, most churches erroneously discourage one of God's gifts to us: common sense.
Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My :2c: on this post....
Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants to interpret it. Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true. In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens. I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE
I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 10, 2010, 05:53:36 AM
but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants to interpret it.
True.
But I wonder what would happend if the church switched to a more literal version like YLT, CB or CLV and the pastor still kept giving his ET sermons.
I'm sure at least a few people will notice something on casual reading the passage used in the sermon.
Interpretation of the words of HS can vary. Translation errors can slip in. But slipping in a lot of doctrinal twists is against "...not add, change or take away a single word..."
I think a honest translation would really matter perhaps the ETs don't end as URs but I'm sure a fair percentage becomses ED.
I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR. But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hard you try. Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.
I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word. There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language. Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers: The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!" Have we gotten it wrong all these years? Was this a holy angel or a demon? Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"
Here's another from Jesus: "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch." I was taught to add: "And so they were for evermore." Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."
On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned. Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)
So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.
It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.
Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there. Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture. How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches. They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis. Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star. Their faces are all over the world through popular media. Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian. Nobodys like us don't have any weight. We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.
I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 10, 2010, 07:52:17 AM
I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR. But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try. Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.
I guess that's why some verses don't read forever but "world"...
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2010, 07:37:02 AM
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 10, 2010, 05:53:36 AM
but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants to interpret it.
True.
But I wonder what would happend if the church switched to a more literal version like YLT, CB or CLV and the pastor still kept giving his ET sermons.
I'm sure at least a few people will notice something on casual reading the passage used in the sermon.
Interpretation of the words of HS can vary. Translation errors can slip in. But slipping in a lot of doctrinal twists is against "...not add, change or take away a single word..."
I think a honest translation would really matter perhaps the ETs don't end as URs but I'm sure a fair percentage becomses ED.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: reFORMer on December 10, 2010, 07:52:17 AM
I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR. But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try. Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.
I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word. There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language. Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers: The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!" Have we gotten it wrong all these years? Was this a holy angel or a demon? Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"
Here's another from Jesus: "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch." I was taught to add: "And so they were for evermore." Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."
On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned. Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)
So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.
It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.
Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there. Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture. How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches. They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis. Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star. Their faces are all over the world through popular media. Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian. Nobodys like us don't have any weight. We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.
I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.
Well said, Amen
Quote from: reFORMer on December 10, 2010, 07:52:17 AM
I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR. But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try. Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.
I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word. There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language. Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers: The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!" Have we gotten it wrong all these years? Was this a holy angel or a demon? Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"
Here's another from Jesus: "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch." I was taught to add: "And so they were for evermore." Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."
On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned. Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)
So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.
It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.
Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there. Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture. How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches. They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis. Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star. Their faces are all over the world through popular media. Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian. Nobodys like us don't have any weight. We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.
I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.
reFORMer,
AMEN!!!
This is the best post I have read in a long time concerning this. :thumbsup:
CHB
I must agree...terrific post.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 10, 2010, 07:52:17 AM
I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR. But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try. Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.
I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word. There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language. Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers: The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!" Have we gotten it wrong all these years? Was this a holy angel or a demon? Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"
Here's another from Jesus: "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch." I was taught to add: "And so they were for evermore." Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."
On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned. Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)
So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.
It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.
Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there. Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture. How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches. They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis. Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star. Their faces are all over the world through popular media. Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian. Nobodys like us don't have any weight. We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.
I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.
:cloud9: :2thumbs: And few there be that find it.....initially, at least. :bigGrin: Blessings....
Quote from: reFORMer on December 10, 2010, 07:52:17 AM
I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR. But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try. Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.
I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word. There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language. Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers: The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!" Have we gotten it wrong all these years? Was this a holy angel or a demon? Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"
Here's another from Jesus: "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch." I was taught to add: "And so they were for evermore." Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."
On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned. Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)
So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.
It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.
Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there. Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture. How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches. They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis. Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star. Their faces are all over the world through popular media. Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian. Nobodys like us don't have any weight. We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.
I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.
Oh the Glory!
[
Quot:"Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there. Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture. How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches. They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis. Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star. Their faces are all over the world through popular media. Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian. Nobodys like us don't have any weight. We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion."
Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous. I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk". I personally believe in UR, however, I have respect for people with an alternate point of view.
Ultimately, the most important thing is to walk with Jesus guiding us.
One thing is certain....punishment in the afterlife will occur, however, we can be certain it will be administered in the most excellent way by our God of love, justice and mercy.
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 11, 2010, 05:04:20 AM
Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.
A rather unbelievable statistic, huh!? I got it from 2 sources. Back in the late 70's at a Kenneth Hagin Meeting he explained how across several years he had asked members of the audience that had been born again and attended some Christian gathering regularly to stand. He asked several questions, but the one I remember was how many among them after 5 years had read the Bible through at least once to remain standing. The result without much variation around the country was 3 1/2 %.
More recently, somewhere in one of Barna's books on Christian statistics he also had the figure of only 3 1/2 % of those who claimed to be born again and attend some kind of church regularly had ever read the Bible through even once.
Most are looking to the consensus of those around them, and specially to titled men in positions of honor from other men, often the rock star as televangelists (the most of which are very poor Bible students.) This is at least part of why an argument from Scripture, that something is either written or it's not even there has little impact on them. From Scripture is not how their faith is built.
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 11, 2010, 05:04:20 AM
Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous. I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk".
I also believe many ETs are honest people.
But still I wonder why most people never leave their church/denominations.
How can it be that in town A full of honest Bible studying people all see the Catholic message in their Bible.
In town B equally honest Bible studiers all see a Protestant message in their Bible.
I find that odd...
Not speaking for everyone because I simple only know a few people but if I read posts on ET forums, YouTube, articles, etc I possibly see the reason.
Those people are thaught they are not allowed to think differently than their church leaders because if you even try to look at a verse from another angle during your study you are calling Jesus a liar. That sort of reasoning. For me true studying means the end conclusion can lead to every denomination. Even to islam....
But if a study is nothing more than rereading until you have exactly the same opionion as your pastor isn't true study in my book....
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 11, 2010, 08:10:34 AM
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 11, 2010, 05:04:20 AM
Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous. I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk".
I also believe many ETs are honest people.
But still I wonder why most people never leave their church/denominations.
How can it be that in town A full of honest Bible studying people all see the Catholic message in their Bible.
In town B equally honest Bible studiers all see a Protestant message in their Bible.
I find that odd...
Not speaking for everyone because I simple only know a few people but if I read posts on ET forums, YouTube, articles, etc I possibly see the reason.
Those people are thaught they are not allowed to think differently than their church leaders because if you even try to look at a verse from another angle during your study you are calling Jesus a liar. That sort of reasoning. For me true studying means the end conclusion can lead to every denomination. Even to islam....
But if a study is nothing more than rereading until you have exactly the same opionion as your pastor isn't true study in my book....
Yea!!! we do agree on something. :bgdance:
CHB
I cannot imagine that man/woman can conceive of a God that is better than the Almighty God who is. If God is perfect, and who would argue that point? Then the 'end' result can only be two things, one, perfect, and two, the utterly best 'end' result possible. Didn't (and doesn't) God see all things from A to Z, seeing "the end from the beginning" and therefor wouldn't God do all things (every choice) in order to bring about that best of all possible outcomes and reality?
There were some great answers here! like: "teaching something doesn't make it true"(and many more!) - how true is that! :bigGrin: I don't think there's one group of people or church that teaches everything 100% right. I think a lot of it is a mixed bag!When it comes to handed down and around beliefs and perceptions. Unfortunately it's very hard to dislodge those slivers (and beams) of untruth from people's minds. Don't you think that's true? That untruths which are taught, for some reason are almost immovable? just look at the whole evolution, creation issue, if you study it, man's modern theory becomes an adult fairy tale of epic and ridiculous proportions, but look how deeply entrenched it is in the human psyche? And so it is with every untruth.. No matter what group I'm in I often wonder if we could get rid of the beam in our eye, we could pray like the first century believers and the House would be shaken.. or, on a personal level, if I had 100% clarity (the "seal on the forehead"? said to be coming to believers in the book of revelation) how more convincing would my own witness be?
Sorry to ramble on so on this board! And hopefully didn't stray too much! As you can see I found this discussion very interesting.. (sometimes it seems to me that untruth covers the earth like a wet, heavy quilt. I think all things are tapestries of light (true) and dark (untrue) threads. If every thread of a tapestry is dark (untrue) it can only fall apart. I guess I'm intrigued with the idea of a tapestry and tapestries of only true (full of light) threads, which of course, is the Kingdom of God! "And in Him is no darkness" so how in any stretch of the imagination could there exist an eternal torturous section of the universe, no make that of the Kingdom.. not wishful thinking, logic.
:bigGrin:
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 10, 2010, 05:53:36 AM
Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My :2c: on this post....
Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants to interpret it. Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true. In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens. I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE
I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker
At this point in my walk...I'm in line with your thinking. It's not something that has been revealed to me...yet. What I do know is I trust God. I trust his judgments. And, if I need to learn to walk in that faith and trust...without knowing then so be it. What I do know is that I have a great hope in Universal Salvation. I do believe his grace is sufficient. I do believe he wants to save the whole world. I do believe Jesus died for the sins of every man.
It is, at the end of the day, wishful thinking.
And, it is so much more than that...
Scripture is clear in teaching us the reconciliation of ALL things. It also speaks of hell and the destruction of the wicked. However, God gave us our intellect, and if we piece together the puzzle, it leads to the ideology of ultimate reconciliation.
We can all "prove" hell based on scripture. We can all "prove" eternal destruction based on scripture. We can all "prove" ultimate reconciliation based on scripture.
What makes the most sense?
Hell doesn't. Love doesn't torment.
Eternal destruction doesn't. The Creator doesn't make mistakes.
Ultimate reconciliation does. We all don't walk in it, we all don't experience it, but He ultimately brings every component of His creation to Himself.
That makes sense.
Terrific post Sally. I can tell you that is how I came to believe in UR. As some here can attest, I waxed and waned back and forth...sometimes convinced...other times not. I went through all the verses and arguments. The conclusion I came up with? That it's really hard to get your head and desires out of "exegesis". I agree with everything you said. While I truly believe the UR stance is stronger scripturally, I wasn't convinced by it. When I gave up trying to figure it out...and just trusted God and his nature something very special happened. I just knew...and believed.
Lol...didn't realize someone bumped an old post. What a difference a year and a half make. :)
Wishful thinking? Could it be wishful thinking? OK, here is some, to me, logical thinking.
I think we would all agree that, at least from the human side, the root of UR in opposition to ET or ED is in a sincere question of the heart. We have heard and seen it read that God is Love. And we wonder why we should believe it makes sense that this Being that is naturally much more loving than us should destroy or injure permanently vast swaths of those beings He created, loves and has put up with for so long. This doesn't sound very loving.
An ETer or EDer will declare "ah, yes, God is completely loving, but He is also completely just and is obligated to punish sin and those that commit sin with the complete sentence for sin. This is presented as an appeal to God's Holiness. So the divide God according to His various characteristics as if He could be in conflict with Himself like that.
If you protest that the proposed solution doesn't sound very just either, punishing people forever for two or three generations worth of offences they will likely direct you to some scripture emphasising the futility of human wisdom against God's wisdom. Apparently, we don't really understand what love or justice actually is.
Well, lets's see what the Bible says:
"He has showed you, O man, what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)
It's unclear how this statement could be true if we don't actually know what love and justice are but let's look at some other examples.
"If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, bruise for bruise, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:23-25)
The law of lex talions, not really meant to be taken literally, in this use, but meant to demonstrate justice as a balancing act of keeping the sentence proportionate. I think the difficulties involved in literally following the latter ones were meant to give it away but it clearly soon got lost in given undue attention to the former ones.
If you doubt it try this:
"For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get." (Matt 7:2)
The idea of infinite sentences for finite crimes really doesn't seem to have too much Biblical support does it?
Let's look at one more quote:
"And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)
People aren't supposed to be able to claim that they don't know what the light is, that they don't know what love and justice are.
The judgment is that they know full well what that are are frequently fail to do them; this is our condemnation. To claim we don't understand love and justice so they can justify everlasting punishment is spectacularly disingenuous. Of course we know what these things are.
But just in case they might want to claim that there some sins or many just one sin that actually is infinite in degree and thus demands an infinite punishment let us look at this possibility in the light of their appeal to God's justice.
So we are imagining there is an infinite sin or sins which some people have committed and in order to meat the demands of justice God has to give an infinite sentence to those people. This is reactive justice they have committed the offence, God reacts by punishing the offence justice is restored through infinite punishment, torment in this case.
Here's the snag, because this form of justice is reactive there always has to injustice in the future that it is meeting, so in this scenario there will always be injustice in the world because the people receiving the sentence are always guilty that is why the sentence is justified.
So maybe you annihilate, maybe immediately maybe after a period of torment, although it's hard to see at what point this change over in sentence would be justified, is this better.
Well, no because God can't forget. The sinners still exist in His knowledge and, since He always retains the power to restore then to existence should He choose to His continued choice not to is another exercise in reactive justice with the same problems illustrated above. And added to this is the fact that as soon as they are annihilated they cease to exist in the world, no longer have guilt (because non existent things can't have anything) and no longer deserve their continuing sentence.
So either way we have injustice rolling on in some form into perpetuity, if God is as just as He is claimed to be and if He must oppose injustice, He simply cannot allow this.
Eternal torment may have apparent moral problems but there is nothing that seems to exceed the philosophical problems the doctrine of annihilation has.
God is not in conflict with Himself, the above argument is intended to demonstrate that if the doctrines of either Hell or Annihilation are at odds with God's love they must also be at odds with His justice.
One final point for those who probably aren't reading but I believe need to hear it, the Bible is really clear on the fact that that one day God really will receive the worship of everyone. And no this is not some forced worship or some pipe dream that God can't really fulfil.
Whatever major eschatological camp you are in I have every reason to believe you agree with the statement I am about to make. Whether right now you believe in Everlasting Torment, or Everlasting Destruction or Universal Reconciliation, I expect that you will believe that our worship, our true and sincere worship, in whatever form that may come, isn't something that God would kind of like to have but can accept losing. No, it is something God is owed, from everyone for always. Everlasting punishment is God permanently depriving Himself of that which He is owed. I don't think that's right. I don't think God is going to do that.
And in that fashion God's justice will be serve, because He will receive the worship He is due and as He receives it the people of the world will, be choice, do only justice and thus injustice will be expelled from creation.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that sounds pretty glorious.
Oh I do love logic!! I.e., Amen!! very :goodpost: :smile:
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 10, 2010, 05:53:36 AM
Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My :2c: on this post....
Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants to interpret it. Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true. In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens. I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE
I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker
Sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.....I did not get to read all the responses.
I believe that UR is true, because it rings true, as to who God is.
I told a story on another topic last night, and took it off, as I felt it was not appropriate. But, I will repost it in response to this subject.
One night, I saw my daughter, standing at a bus stop, after midnight. It was cold and windy; there was no one on the streets, in that upper-class suburb of Westchester......just a handful of cars passing. She was 18, and despite my pleas, had left us to live with a very objectionable boyfriend, who turned out to be a much worse influence that I had originally suspected. She was supposed to be living in the dorm, of the college across the street from the bus stop, but she was actually living with him.....and neglecting her studies, doing so. She had only entered the college as an honor student, about 3 months prior.
I tried my best to get her to take a ride with me, to wherever she needed to go, but she refused. I was not surprised, but when I had to leave her there, at that bus stop, my heart was broken. The image of her standing there could still hurt, but I rarely allow myself to think about it. ( I almost forgot...I waited in the car, until the bus came, a bit away from where she was standing, so I could see her get on the bus, safely, at least.)
I know how much I love my daughter......and I also know that God loves her and I and all of us, far more. And, I know all the promises He has made to us......and I know His word is true.
Yes, we will be held accountable.....but, in the end, love will overcome all.
And, the verse in 1Corinthians13:18 always echoes in my heart......Love never fails.
I, as a human can fail, but He cannot. And, because He cannot fail, and because of His infinite love; because He is love........ He will take us all safely home.
And Jesus will truly be victorious, because all God's children will be saved, and we will truly be the Body of Christ. The devil will have no fame or claim to any one of us.....Christ alone will have overcome death and sin and despair.
As, I believe, it should be and must be.
Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.
Romans 14:10 - 12
...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
D.
Quote from: marie glen on March 16, 2016, 04:36:36 PM
Oh I do love logic!! I.e., Amen!! very :goodpost: :smile:
I will read that as an approval of my application of logic, I can't help suspecting ETers and EDers will manage to produce their own seemingly perfectly logical responses to that. I'm not capable of imagining it's perfect. I like that you approve, I can take that a a rather good endorsement. :gimmefive:
Quote from: Dandelion on March 16, 2016, 05:08:47 PM
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 10, 2010, 05:53:36 AM
Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My :2c: on this post....
Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants to interpret it. Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true. In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens. I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE
I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker
Sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.....I did not get to read all the responses.
I believe that UR is true, because it rings true, as to who God is.
I told a story on another topic last night, and took it off, as I felt it was not appropriate. But, I will repost it in response to this subject.
One night, I saw my daughter, standing at a bus stop, after midnight. It was cold and windy; there was no one on the streets, in that upper-class suburb of Westchester......just a handful of cars passing. She was 18, and despite my pleas, had left us to live with a very objectionable boyfriend, who turned out to be a much worse influence that I had originally suspected. She was supposed to be living in the dorm, of the college across the street from the bus stop, but she was actually living with him.....and neglecting her studies, doing so. She had only entered the college as an honor student, about 3 months prior.
I tried my best to get her to take a ride with me, to wherever she needed to go, but she refused. I was not surprised, but when I had to leave her there, at that bus stop, my heart was broken. The image of her standing there could still hurt, but I rarely allow myself to think about it. ( I almost forgot...I waited in the car, until the bus came, a bit away from where she was standing, so I could see her get on the bus, safely, at least.)
I know how much I love my daughter......and I also know that God loves her and I and all of us, far more. And, I know all the promises He has made to us......and I know His word is true.
Yes, we will be held accountable.....but, in the end, love will overcome all.
And, the verse in 1Corinthians13:18 always echoes in my heart......Love never fails.
I, as a human can fail, but He cannot. And, because He cannot fail, and because of His infinite love; because He is love........ He will take us all safely home.
And Jesus will truly be victorious, because all God's children will be saved, and we will truly be the Body of Christ. The devil will have no fame or claim to any one of us.....Christ alone will have overcome death and sin and despair.
As, I believe, it should be and must be.
Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.
Romans 14:10 - 12
...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
D.
Rings true? To be fair it would be wonderful if that was all that was needed to convince people of its truth.
Sorry to here about your daughter. Thank God all that scripture can be trusted and that God who spoke it can be trusted. Like that line you took from Romans with it (and lines like it) the final aspect of the argument above was based.
One cannot convince someone of what they do not know. It was through terrible loneliness and isolation that I came to know how deep God's love is. And, His Spirit carried me through terrible darkness and evil. I consider myself very blessed to have gone through what I did. I would probably
never had come to know God the way I do, otherwise. What to this world is horror, God has used for my good.
So, that is why I can say and think as I do. And I am eternally grateful to my 'Abba' father who could turn my sad story into incredible joy.
I was blessed to be a blessing......so I must shout my story from the mountain top, which I happily do.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 16, 2016, 05:08:47 PM
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 10, 2010, 05:53:36 AM
Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My :2c: on this post....
Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants to interpret it. Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true. In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens. I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE
I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker
Sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.....I did not get to read all the responses.
I believe that UR is true, because it rings true, as to who God is.
I told a story on another topic last night, and took it off, as I felt it was not appropriate. But, I will repost it in response to this subject.
One night, I saw my daughter, standing at a bus stop, after midnight. It was cold and windy; there was no one on the streets, in that upper-class suburb of Westchester......just a handful of cars passing. She was 18, and despite my pleas, had left us to live with a very objectionable boyfriend, who turned out to be a much worse influence that I had originally suspected. She was supposed to be living in the dorm, of the college across the street from the bus stop, but she was actually living with him.....and neglecting her studies, doing so. She had only entered the college as an honor student, about 3 months prior.
I tried my best to get her to take a ride with me, to wherever she needed to go, but she refused. I was not surprised, but when I had to leave her there, at that bus stop, my heart was broken. The image of her standing there could still hurt, but I rarely allow myself to think about it. ( I almost forgot...I waited in the car, until the bus came, a bit away from where she was standing, so I could see her get on the bus, safely, at least.)
I know how much I love my daughter......and I also know that God loves her and I and all of us, far more. And, I know all the promises He has made to us......and I know His word is true.
Yes, we will be held accountable.....but, in the end, love will overcome all.
And, the verse in 1Corinthians13:18 always echoes in my heart......Love never fails.
I, as a human can fail, but He cannot. And, because He cannot fail, and because of His infinite love; because He is love........ He will take us all safely home.
And Jesus will truly be victorious, because all God's children will be saved, and we will truly be the Body of Christ. The devil will have no fame or claim to any one of us.....Christ alone will have overcome death and sin and despair.
As, I believe, it should be and must be.
Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.
Romans 14:10 - 12
...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
D.
I love that! I'm glad you reposted it, D. Some great thoughts! ..the whole "God is love" .."He is Almighty" but He will lose 3/4's of humanity can't ever jive.
-----
But truly, for all to consider, as said (sort of) all each one can do is be a "good Berean" and search and study the scripture for ourselves. And that logically would include digging into the original languages used.. And maybe some of the mindset of the time, though Yahweh of course is beyond that as is truth. Even if logic alone has convinced us - which, "the heart is deceitful above all things" - For me logic came first in that first blush of first love.. and I loved His Word also. Luckily I've always been a bit of a spiritual hermit so His Word is what I've had. And His Spirit of course, as is the promise. "you shall hear a voice behind thee.. this is the way go ye in it". - I think that is rather badly paraphrased, but that's how I remember the verse. My daughter's on my computer right now.. and I gave up using the concordant books :Chinscratch: wonder where those are..?
If you're not taught hell and never embraced it, it's not very difficult..
Lazarus Short's thread "heaven yes, hell no" going through each book of the Bible looking for and finding no references to 'hell' is really good. (Can see some things differently perhaps..? but the main purpose rings very true and is turning out really good.)
Sheol of the Old Testament, remember, was the grave "where all go" where Jacob? Job? asked God to "hide him" and where there is "no knowing or doing"... Then voila, in the New Testament we are supposed to believe now there is this huge fire awaiting most of mankind.. Besides, that sneakily sounds a lot more lie Baal to me.. And the Persephone type myths.. Egypt's involved levels and fire..
And if we ask Him, He will minister to and guide us.. It is all in His Word. We can take Him at His Word. His Word is His oath.
:Peace2: :gsmile: :2c:
I believe it is always important to go to Scripture, and confirm our thoughts and beliefs.
As for being taught about Hell.......I was definitely raised in an atmosphere of believing in Hell, as well as Purgatory. Hell was very real to me, as a very young child. My neighborhood, my culture, and my family greatly enjoyed the concept, actually. They enjoyed thinking who, of the people they disliked, were going to spend an eternity there.
I know a lot of people who are going to be VERY disappointed. :rolllol:
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 16, 2016, 08:49:18 PM
One cannot convince someone of what they do not know. It was through terrible loneliness and isolation that I came to know how deep God's love is. And, His Spirit carried me through terrible darkness and evil. I consider myself very blessed to have gone through what I did. I would probably
never had come to know God the way I do, otherwise. What to this world is horror, God has used for my good.
So, that is why I can say and think as I do. And I am eternally grateful to my 'Abba' father who could turn my sad story into incredible joy.
I was blessed to be a blessing......so I must shout my story from the mountain top, which I happily do.
D.
Very true. We do, of course, try to impart to people things that they don't know. This is teaching. God attempts to teach us things He wants us to know and we all try to teach our own children, if we have them, things we want them to know, we try to teach friends and neighbours too sometimes.
But this can be very hard if people aren't willing to learn, which can be sadly too frequent for all of us. But this doesn't stop trying so we're often learning anyway through both our good and less good experiences. How long it can take to learn from the less good ones can be a real downer though.
Quote from: marie glen on March 16, 2016, 09:05:36 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on March 16, 2016, 05:08:47 PM
Quote from: Sally Anne on December 10, 2010, 05:53:36 AM
Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My :2c: on this post....
Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants to interpret it. Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true. In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens. I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE
I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker
Sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.....I did not get to read all the responses.
I believe that UR is true, because it rings true, as to who God is.
I told a story on another topic last night, and took it off, as I felt it was not appropriate. But, I will repost it in response to this subject.
One night, I saw my daughter, standing at a bus stop, after midnight. It was cold and windy; there was no one on the streets, in that upper-class suburb of Westchester......just a handful of cars passing. She was 18, and despite my pleas, had left us to live with a very objectionable boyfriend, who turned out to be a much worse influence that I had originally suspected. She was supposed to be living in the dorm, of the college across the street from the bus stop, but she was actually living with him.....and neglecting her studies, doing so. She had only entered the college as an honor student, about 3 months prior.
I tried my best to get her to take a ride with me, to wherever she needed to go, but she refused. I was not surprised, but when I had to leave her there, at that bus stop, my heart was broken. The image of her standing there could still hurt, but I rarely allow myself to think about it. ( I almost forgot...I waited in the car, until the bus came, a bit away from where she was standing, so I could see her get on the bus, safely, at least.)
I know how much I love my daughter......and I also know that God loves her and I and all of us, far more. And, I know all the promises He has made to us......and I know His word is true.
Yes, we will be held accountable.....but, in the end, love will overcome all.
And, the verse in 1Corinthians13:18 always echoes in my heart......Love never fails.
I, as a human can fail, but He cannot. And, because He cannot fail, and because of His infinite love; because He is love........ He will take us all safely home.
And Jesus will truly be victorious, because all God's children will be saved, and we will truly be the Body of Christ. The devil will have no fame or claim to any one of us.....Christ alone will have overcome death and sin and despair.
As, I believe, it should be and must be.
Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.
Romans 14:10 - 12
...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
D.
I love that! I'm glad you reposted it, D. Some great thoughts! ..the whole "God is love" .."He is Almighty" but He will lose 3/4's of humanity can't ever jive.
-----
But truly, for all to consider, as said (sort of) all each one can do is be a "good Berean" and search and study the scripture for ourselves. And that logically would include digging into the original languages used.. And maybe some of the mindset of the time, though Yahweh of course is beyond that as is truth. Even if logic alone has convinced us - which, "the heart is deceitful above all things" - For me logic came first in that first blush of first love.. and I loved His Word also. Luckily I've always been a bit of a spiritual hermit so His Word is what I've had. And His Spirit of course, as is the promise. "you shall hear a voice behind thee.. this is the way go ye in it". - I think that is rather badly paraphrased, but that's how I remember the verse. My daughter's on my computer right now.. and I gave up using the concordant books :Chinscratch: wonder where those are..?
If you're not taught hell and never embraced it, it's not very difficult..
Lazarus Short's thread "heaven yes, hell no" going through each book of the Bible looking for and finding no references to 'hell' is really good. (Can see some things differently perhaps..? but the main purpose rings very true and is turning out really good.)
Sheol of the Old Testament, remember, was the grave "where all go" where Jacob? Job? asked God to "hide him" and where there is "no knowing or doing"... Then voila, in the New Testament we are supposed to believe now there is this huge fire awaiting most of mankind.. Besides, that sneakily sounds a lot more lie Baal to me.. And the Persephone type myths.. Egypt's involved levels and fire..
And if we ask Him, He will minister to and guide us.. It is all in His Word. We can take Him at His Word. His Word is His oath.
:Peace2: :gsmile: :2c:
"Come now and let us reason together," (Isaiah 1:8)
Not the best evidence going half at least the translations express the verse differently but I'd have thought this translation very much suits the spirit of Isaiah who employs reason and logic rather a lot.
People are very flawed but I don't think are reason is really very far from God's we just pervert it frequently it we don't like some of its conclusions. We do have limited knowledge though which can affect our starting point.
There's actually a lot of "new" things we're supposed to believe because it's in the New Testament. You'd struggle to find support for the Christian concept of Satan outside Job in the Old Testament, and that's ambiguous, the New Testament supposedly contains loads of support.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 17, 2016, 07:40:20 AM
I believe it is always important to go to Scripture, and confirm our thoughts and beliefs.
As for being taught about Hell.......I was definitely raised in an atmosphere of believing in Hell, as well as Purgatory. Hell was very real to me, as a very young child. My neighborhood, my culture, and my family greatly enjoyed the concept, actually. They enjoyed thinking who, of the people they disliked, were going to spend an eternity there.
I know a lot of people who are going to be VERY disappointed. :rolllol:
D.
Very true.
Unfortunately, far too often, we'll only go to the parts of scripture that we can use to confirm our thoughts and beliefs.
A lot of people are going to be disappointed. And then they'll probably go to Hell until they learn why they shouldn't be disappointed.
That's quite sad, sorry for them. Hoping they don't.
Quote from CST:
Very true. We do, of course, try to impart to people things that they don't know. This is teaching. God attempts to teach us things He wants us to know and we all try to teach our own children, if we have them, things we want them to know, we try to teach friends and neighbours too sometimes.
But this can be very hard if people aren't willing to learn, which can be sadly too frequent for all of us. But this doesn't stop trying so we're often learning anyway through both our good and less good experiences. How long it can take to learn from the less good ones can be a real downer though.
I am a Special Ed.Teacher. Yes, of course, you are correct. We teach each other all types of things. I love to teach, and it is like the air I breathe, to me. I guess what I was trying to say, is when something is not in your experience, it is hard to impart that information to you.....you might have no reference point to understand it.....at least not in the depth and intensity of it, which is sometimes needed. Some people have not needed to see how tremendously huge God's love is, because they had human love to fill the gaps. When all is striped of us, and there is nothing else but God, we realize just how incredible He is. And, that is usually when He is able to teach us the most.
Yea, I think that is what I was trying to say. :Chin scratch:
As far as only going to scripture that confirms what we want to believe, I would hope that most of us would quickly realize how useless that is and in the long run, very counter-productive. I have been blessed to been introduced to studying scripture, since a child, and I am eternally grateful for that. My Dad, as well as my revolutionary, Ursuline nuns, introduced me long, long ago. And, thanks to my Dad love of literature, he made sure there were always Bibles in the house.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 17, 2016, 04:28:23 PM
Quote from CST:
Very true. We do, of course, try to impart to people things that they don't know. This is teaching. God attempts to teach us things He wants us to know and we all try to teach our own children, if we have them, things we want them to know, we try to teach friends and neighbours too sometimes.
But this can be very hard if people aren't willing to learn, which can be sadly too frequent for all of us. But this doesn't stop trying so we're often learning anyway through both our good and less good experiences. How long it can take to learn from the less good ones can be a real downer though.
I am a Special Ed.Teacher. Yes, of course, you are correct. We teach each other all types of things. I love to teach, and it is like the air I breathe, to me. I guess what I was trying to say, is when something is not in your experience, it is hard to impart that information to you.....you might have no reference point to understand it.....at least not in the depth and intensity of it, which is sometimes needed. Some people have not needed to see how tremendously huge God's love is, because they had human love to fill the gaps. When all is striped of us, and there is nothing else but God, we realize just how incredible He is. And, that is usually when He is able to teach us the most.
Yea, I think that is what I was trying to say. :Chin scratch:
As far as only going to scripture that confirms what we want to believe, I would hope that most of us would quickly realize how useless that is and in the long run, very counter-productive. I have been blessed to been introduced to studying scripture, since a child, and I am eternally grateful for that. My Dad, as well as my revolutionary, Ursuline nuns, introduced me long, long ago. And, thanks to my Dad love of literature, he made sure there were always Bibles in the house.
D.
I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.
However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.
People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.
I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2016, 07:29:02 PM
I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.
However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.
People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.
I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.
What a contrast that will be.. this life of imPerfection as compared to life when God becomes "all in all"
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
"I will write my law on their heart and on their mind" Jeremiah 33:? ...the full understanding of good from evil? (life from death/nonlife :2c: )
:Chinscratch: the torah..
instruction.. Interesting! thank you! (I always think, what is the best teacher?)
I think the myth of hell blasphemes God's 100% good character every day.. And I figure, no wonder so many don't (cannot) believe..
How happy (and peaceful!) to know that "with God all things are possible" and "He desires all to be saved".. "His Word will not return to Him void, but will accomplish all which He sent it forth to do" (I hope I quoted that right.. Is 55:?)
:Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2016, 05:17:35 AM
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2016, 07:29:02 PM
I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.
However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.
People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.
I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.
What a contrast that will be.. this life of imPerfection as compared to life when God becomes "all in all"
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
"I will write my law on their heart and on their mind" Jeremiah 33:? ...the full understanding of good from evil? (life from death/nonlife :2c: )
:Chinscratch: the torah.. instruction.. Interesting! thank you! (I always think, what is the best teacher?)
I think the myth of hell blasphemes God's 100% good character every day.. And I figure, no wonder so many don't (cannot) believe..
How happy (and peaceful!) to know that "with God all things are possible" and "He desires all to be saved".. "His Word will not return to Him void, but will accomplish all which He sent it forth to do" (I hope I quoted that right.. Is 55:?)
:Peace2:
I could have easily come up with the conclusion that the world is a very cold and cruel place, as many have.
What made the difference for me, that instead of that, I have come to see the immense love of God?
Perhaps that I always clung to my faith, despite everything, from a very small child? Was it God's grace, alone, that I was able to comprehend, through the Holy Spirit? Was it my searching for the truth......a combination of all of this? Was it the wonderful people that God put in my path, throughout my life, that gave me the courage to go on, through Him?
I really don't know........I know that God has always been there for me, now. I went through many very dark valleys, but I always clung to God. I would bet I was a very depressed child, due to my circumstances. Yet, I never gave up; always tried to keep going.
Perhaps I just felt God's presence and finally recognized it, for what it was.
Whatever the reason, I know I am blessed. And, I know I need to tell my story to others, to give them hope. I need to pass the torch. I want to be Jesus in the flesh for other people.
It is the highest honor, my greatest privilege I will ever see on this side of heaven.
I know that it is to God that the Glory belongs....of that, I am certain. And, I am eternally grateful.
D.
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2016, 05:17:35 AM
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2016, 07:29:02 PM
I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.
However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.
People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.
I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.
What a contrast that will be.. this life of imPerfection as compared to life when God becomes "all in all"
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
"I will write my law on their heart and on their mind" Jeremiah 33:? ...the full understanding of good from evil? (life from death/nonlife :2c: )
:Chinscratch: the torah.. instruction.. Interesting! thank you! (I always think, what is the best teacher?)
I think the myth of hell blasphemes God's 100% good character every day.. And I figure, no wonder so many don't (cannot) believe..
How happy (and peaceful!) to know that "with God all things are possible" and "He desires all to be saved".. "His Word will not return to Him void, but will accomplish all which He sent it forth to do" (I hope I quoted that right.. Is 55:?)
:Peace2:
Very true.
And the myth of Hell, utterly blasphemies God but I think this is not the thread to go into that. I think if you have misquoted I wold the spirit is represented sufficiently for not to be misled.
Quote from: Dandelion on March 18, 2016, 06:48:25 AM
Quote from: marie glen on March 18, 2016, 05:17:35 AM
Quote from: CST on March 17, 2016, 07:29:02 PM
I understand, people have a world filled with the experience of human love they don't see the need for God's love, I see that.
However, I also see that some people have such a dearth of the experience of human love and just seem to go for painful experience to painful experience, they "learn" that there isn't very likely to be a God or else if there is He isn't all that loving or else, they ask, where was He when they were going through all this trauma.
People's experiences are very complicated and can hardened them to all sorts of things others see as self evident in lots of different ways. Some how I'm finding it very hard to get away from this model of teaching and learning and see experience as a mechanism for the same. Perhaps, in part, because 'torah' means instruction (or direction) rather than 'law' as it's often translated in the Bible.
I'd like to think people would quickly realize that too but, again, 'experience' suggests that all too often many don't.
What a contrast that will be.. this life of imPerfection as compared to life when God becomes "all in all"
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
"I will write my law on their heart and on their mind" Jeremiah 33:? ...the full understanding of good from evil? (life from death/nonlife :2c: )
:Chinscratch: the torah.. instruction.. Interesting! thank you! (I always think, what is the best teacher?)
I think the myth of hell blasphemes God's 100% good character every day.. And I figure, no wonder so many don't (cannot) believe..
How happy (and peaceful!) to know that "with God all things are possible" and "He desires all to be saved".. "His Word will not return to Him void, but will accomplish all which He sent it forth to do" (I hope I quoted that right.. Is 55:?)
:Peace2:
I could have easily come up with the conclusion that the world is a very cold and cruel place, as many have.
What made the difference for me, that instead of that, I have come to see the immense love of God?
Perhaps that I always clung to my faith, despite everything, from a very small child? Was it God's grace, alone, that I was able to comprehend, through the Holy Spirit? Was it my searching for the truth......a combination of all of this? Was it the wonderful people that God put in my path, throughout my life, that gave me the courage to go on, through Him?
I really don't know........I know that God has always been there for me, now. I went through many very dark valleys, but I always clung to God. I would bet I was a very depressed child, due to my circumstances. Yet, I never gave up; always tried to keep going.
Perhaps I just felt God's presence and finally recognized it, for what it was.
Whatever the reason, I know I am blessed. And, I know I need to tell my story to others, to give them hope. I need to pass the torch. I want to be Jesus in the flesh for other people.
It is the highest honor, my greatest privilege I will ever see on this side of heaven.
I know that it is to God that the Glory belongs....of that, I am certain. And, I am eternally grateful.
D.
And we're glad and happy that you have received that grace. Good look with your continued goal of spreading it.
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.
So if we are going to interpret it as u said, that it's only those who are "in Christ" then let's look at the Bible to see who will be in Christ:
Romans 14:11
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Isaiah
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
For anyone who says the confession will be forced, let's see what the Bible says about how someone confesses that Jesus is Lord...
1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Bam!!
:dsunny:
Just posted this one, the other day:
1 John 4:
15If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love has been perfected among us, so that we may have confidence on the day of judgment; for in this world we are just like Him.
18There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.
Quote from: Andrew on April 17, 2018, 02:05:01 AM
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.
Yeah, people have tried to make this argument before, usually Biblical translators deal with it by by altering the syntax and writing it exactly as you express '...as all in Adam will die, so all in Christ will be made alive.' In which case the latter is true, but that's not what it says, 'in Adam all die' is substantially different from 'all in Adam die'. The latter of course suggest that all are in Adam through no fault of their own but will remain there unless they choose to migrate into Christ (which they can't do unaided). The former, that Christ is getting everyone to migrate from Adam to Himself is the only one that actually makes sense in the context.
Quote from: Andrew on April 17, 2018, 02:05:01 AM
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.
Hi Adam, there has only been one that was not in Adam because He was not born of Adam's seed and that is Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin for if He had not been, then He would be under the same curse as a member of Adam's Body. So the verse is as follows:
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
1Co 15:24 then—the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father,
The ALL in Adam is the same ALL that shall be made alive in Christ.
Quote from: Andrew on April 17, 2018, 02:05:01 AM
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26
The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
! Corinthians 15:26,
'The last enemy that will be abolished is death'....there it is right there....the lake of fire, which is literally in Greek, 'death the second', is to be abolished, as its the 'last enemy'...it follows that the unbelievers who are in the lake of fire will be released from it as it will be abolished....hope I've explained this reasonably clearly...that's my UR take on it anyway.
Quote from: trettep on April 28, 2018, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Andrew on April 17, 2018, 02:05:01 AM
"..as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him, then the end.. when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father ..so that God may be all in all." - 1 Cor 15:22,23,28
Just some questions about this verse. When it says "so in Christ all will be made alive" - does that refer to all people or just those that have recieved Christ. And "those who belong to him" seems to suggest again only those that recieve Christ in this life. And then it says the end - it doesn't seem to mention the others who haven't recieved Christ in this life. Can someone please show me how to look at this verse from a UR perspective.
Hi Adam, there has only been one that was not in Adam because He was not born of Adam's seed and that is Jesus Christ. This is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin for if He had not been, then He would be under the same curse as a member of Adam's Body. So the verse is as follows:
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
1Co 15:24 then—the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father,
The ALL in Adam is the same ALL that shall be made alive in Christ.
This has started to worry me of late because, while I'm aware that the 'all' in Adam must be equal to the 'all' in Christ I am increasingly aware that 'all' to the Pauline reader cannot be equal to the 'all' of the modern reader. I know this because I know our awareness of the size and scope of the world and its population has increased vastly. When we think of the world we think of places and peoples that Paul and his readers had likely never imagined. Does that make a difference, I'm not sure? I'm certainly glad that Romans 5 is also in the New Testament so we can read that:
"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:" (Rom 5:20)
A line which increases the scope of salvation to hitherto unimaginable degrees, or it seems that way anyway.
Let's assume Paul thought the world is only 1000 square mile in size.
The HS who inspired Paul's words knew every square inch of the whole planet.
But let's play :-)
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die,
Is that only about sinners that live in the 1000 square miles Paul knew? Or perhaps only the 100 square mile Adam knew.
Does Scripture state only people in the 100 square mile Adam knew die. All others have eternal life?
Obviously not.
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
If all means 100 sqm, then indeed Christ saves only those people BUT there is no need to save all others because they never died in Adam to begin with.
If all mean 100% of this planet died in Adam, then Christ's redemptive work automatically scales up to 100% of the planet.
Then there is the argument that all doesn't really mean all. A rather weak argument...
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
"as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
"The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one."
Are those verses only about the 100 sqm Adam knew about? People living in what is now known as Europe and America, were all good? Those people aren't children of man?
My point is, if you scale things up, you have to scale up both parts of the verse.
BTW, the ancients knew a large part of the world. The Joseph than buried Jesus owned tin mines in England. Way before Jesus was born Jews and Phoenicians sailed to America.
good point ! :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on December 08, 2010, 05:46:51 AM
An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;
Who wants to go to hell? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
dunno...most wouldn't but some people are masochists and seem to enjoy pain....anyway, eternal hell doesn't exist and nobody ends up there forever.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2018, 12:41:58 PM
Let's assume Paul thought the world is only 1000 square mile in size.
The HS who inspired Paul's words knew every square inch of the whole planet.
But let's play :-)
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die,
Is that only about sinners that live in the 1000 square miles Paul knew? Or perhaps only the 100 square mile Adam knew.
Does Scripture state only people in the 100 square mile Adam knew die. All others have eternal life?
Obviously not.
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
If all means 100 sqm, then indeed Christ saves only those people BUT there is no need to save all others because they never died in Adam to begin with.
If all mean 100% of this planet died in Adam, then Christ's redemptive work automatically scales up to 100% of the planet.
Then there is the argument that all doesn't really mean all. A rather weak argument...
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
"as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
"The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one."
Are those verses only about the 100 sqm Adam knew about? People living in what is now known as Europe and America, were all good? Those people aren't children of man?
My point is, if you scale things up, you have to scale up both parts of the verse.
BTW, the ancients knew a large part of the world. The Joseph than buried Jesus owned tin mines in England. Way before Jesus was born Jews and Phoenicians sailed to America.
True, but their are also passages in the Bible that suggest some people are in fact righteous in spite of the passages that say no-one is. I concede that it's not helpful for this conversation that I can't remember those passages at present so we can properly scrutinise them and show why they don't contradict but they are there.
Obviously the 'none righteous' passages are more reliable than the passages that suggest there are righteous people. If there ever were righteous people we can't see any now which makes the concept very questionable. Sometimes the Bible seems to overstate character's righteousness even while limiting it. Supposedly David pleased God in everything he did except the incident with Uriah the Hittite (1 Kings 15:5). Right, so what about that census he shouldn't have taken? David sounds about as close to righteous as it's possible for an standard human to be here. Certainly a lot more righteous than us.
What are your sources on the tin mines in England and the Jews in America because I suspect there are some that would dismiss them in the same breath as they dismiss evidence for the theory of evolution by natural selection or the geological age of the Earth.
Quote from: darryl on May 31, 2018, 03:07:10 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 08, 2010, 05:46:51 AM
An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;
Who wants to go to hell? I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
dunno...most wouldn't but some people are masochists and seem to enjoy pain....anyway, eternal hell doesn't exist and nobody ends up there forever.
I don't know much about it, but I get the impression masochists only enjoy pain when then have some measure of control over it, if it were inflicted on them in forms they couldn't control I doubt they'd be so pleased.
Quick insert..IMO, there is none righteous. IN OURSELVES. The only righteousness anyone (except Jesus) has is imputed* to them/us. "I yet not I"... :2c:
*ascribe (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to someone by virtue of a similar quality in another (Him)
So yes, I agree, no real contradiction in the scriptures, more so, "what does it mean". :)
There are a fair amount of passages about seeking righteousness which isn't the same as being righteous.
Here's some references to righteous people:
Surely the righteous will never be shaken;
they will be remembered forever.
Psalm 112:6
Ill-gotten treasures have no lasting value,
but righteousness delivers from death.
Proverbs 10:2
The righteous person may have many troubles,
but the Lord delivers him from them all.
Psalm 34:19
Cast your cares on the Lord
and he will sustain you;
he will never let
the righteous be shaken.
Psalm 55:22
All of the ones I could find were in the psalms. Is there poetic license allowed because they are songs?
Most of the references to righteousness in other books like the NT have to do with GOD'S righteousness which makes sense.
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 1:17
So maybe the no one righteous refers to us on our own and any reference to righteousness is from God?
I feel like Bill and Ted from that movie from the 80s. "Righteous dude!"
yeah, i kind of look at it like "there's a better part of me". and it's not really me. It's HIM in me. (His) Spirit instead of (my) flesh.
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2018, 03:02:59 AM
yeah, i kind of look at it like "there's a better part of me". and it's not really me. It's HIM in me. (His) Spirit instead of (my) flesh.
Hopefully these verses are relevant. From the Concordant:
Php 1:20 in accord with my premonition and expectation, that in nothing shall I be put to shame, but with all boldness, as always, now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether through life or through death.1Pe 3:15 yet hallow the Lord Christ in your hearts, ever ready with a defense for everyone who is demanding from you an account concerning the expectation in you, but with meekness and fear
Quote from: CST on June 01, 2018, 05:59:16 PM
True, but their are also passages in the Bible that suggest some people are in fact righteous in spite of the passages that say no-one is. I concede that it's not helpful for this conversation that I can't remember those passages at present so we can properly scrutinise them and show why they don't contradict but they are there.
Obviously the 'none righteous' passages are more reliable than the passages that suggest there are righteous people. If there ever were righteous people we can't see any now which makes the concept very questionable. Sometimes the Bible seems to overstate character's righteousness even while limiting it. Supposedly David pleased God in everything he did except the incident with Uriah the Hittite (1 Kings 15:5). Right, so what about that census he shouldn't have taken? David sounds about as close to righteous as it's possible for an standard human to be here. Certainly a lot more righteous than us.
What are your sources on the tin mines in England and the Jews in America because I suspect there are some that would dismiss them in the same breath as they dismiss evidence for the theory of evolution by natural selection or the geological age of the Earth.
First the easy part. Searh for yourself :-)
I haven't really researched it but if you Google for "joseph of arimathea tin mines england" you get a lot of pages to read.
Digging a bit deeper and you will find he founded the first church in England.
Google for "ancient jews and phoenicians"
In an American cave the ten commandments in ancient Hebrew script were found. That should point to very ancient travel. But when following the 'Indians decent from Hebrews' theories it may just as well been them. Modernday linguists found that Indian languages contain a lot of ancient Hebrew. But the theory is that they didn't sail, but walk to America. Which is possible if you walk from Israel all the way trough Russia and then to Cananda. What's now the Bering Strait was once a landbridge due to lower water levels etc. :Chinscratch:
About rightous. Yeah I know which contradictions you are talking about. Abraham and Noach were rightous and friends of God.
I don't have a verse for you right now; I'm in a hurry or just plain lazy...
In the NT there is a whole passage about being in Christ and keeping the law.
It's said that seeking salvation by doing the works of the law is allowed, is possible. But then all the law has to be kept. Only Christ succeeded in that approach. The other way to gain salvation is through/in Christ.
When you strip away all stuff not strictly needed for this discussion something interesting surfaces.
If we have two Jews who are 100% the same; one seeks salvation in by keeping the Laws and the other one in Christ, then the first one fails. The second one succeeds while he commited the same sins as the first one.
That person is condemed by the Law he follows.
So let's assume Jesus isn't born yet. God looks down and states not one is rightous. Then God looks down again shortly after Jesus died and He will probebly state He finds rightous people in/through His Son. The very same people with the same sins.
For pre-Moses people when all those laws weren't given yet, it was easier not to live by that law, simply because it was unknown.
But Scripture also says people did still sin even they weren't under that law because God never told anyone about it. But it was not held against them.
Abraham was the friend of God (James 2:23). He believed and honored God without keeping all those laws. Maybe that's the difference. But obviously not so for David.
But should we really have that discussion?
All saved isn't about keeping laws and stuff because everyone agrees that not possible. For some because they think God threw the Law in the trash when Jesus rose from the dead, for others because they know keeping the law 100% isn't possible, etc.
Even Jews believe that. Following the Law is needed according to them, but it still requires grace from God to reach their goal.
So at the very end of whatever discussion we land on the topic of grace. Many claim grace only comes through believing in Christ. All who don't are doomed. That's a overly simplified view. For example, is God's friend Abraham now in hell because he didn't speak favorble words about Jesus? Would it be like this?
Abraham dies and appears before the Judgement Seat. Then God say "Howdy Abraham my big friend! See that man sitting at the righthand side of me. That's Christ my Son. You never believed in Him my friend Abraham. The fact that He was born 1000s of years after you doesn't matter. I'll dump you in hell, until never my good friend!"
So the discussion shouldn't be who's rightous, who's sinless, who deserves heaven, etc.
The discussion should be:
- On which grounds, conditions does theFather gives His grace?
- When does He give His grace?
Only when someone can answer that question, that person can prove the extent of 'all'.
Also read the verses in my signature.
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 02, 2018, 12:47:10 AM
There are a fair amount of passages about seeking righteousness which isn't the same as being righteous.
Here's some references to righteous people:
Surely the righteous will never be shaken;
they will be remembered forever.
Psalm 112:6
Ill-gotten treasures have no lasting value,
but righteousness delivers from death.
Proverbs 10:2
The righteous person may have many troubles,
but the Lord delivers him from them all.
Psalm 34:19
Cast your cares on the Lord
and he will sustain you;
he will never let
the righteous be shaken.
Psalm 55:22
All of the ones I could find were in the psalms. Is there poetic license allowed because they are songs?
Most of the references to righteousness in other books like the NT have to do with GOD'S righteousness which makes sense.
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 1:17
So maybe the no one righteous refers to us on our own and any reference to righteousness is from God?
I feel like Bill and Ted from that movie from the 80s. "Righteous dude!"
Quite so, I have image the poetic license bit may be the correct reading here given that it refers to quite a lot of general people here quite possible through all history. When you add in the verses that say there are none righteous it suddenly is basically referring to no-one.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 02, 2018, 08:12:54 AM
Quote from: CST on June 01, 2018, 05:59:16 PM
True, but their are also passages in the Bible that suggest some people are in fact righteous in spite of the passages that say no-one is. I concede that it's not helpful for this conversation that I can't remember those passages at present so we can properly scrutinise them and show why they don't contradict but they are there.
Obviously the 'none righteous' passages are more reliable than the passages that suggest there are righteous people. If there ever were righteous people we can't see any now which makes the concept very questionable. Sometimes the Bible seems to overstate character's righteousness even while limiting it. Supposedly David pleased God in everything he did except the incident with Uriah the Hittite (1 Kings 15:5). Right, so what about that census he shouldn't have taken? David sounds about as close to righteous as it's possible for an standard human to be here. Certainly a lot more righteous than us.
What are your sources on the tin mines in England and the Jews in America because I suspect there are some that would dismiss them in the same breath as they dismiss evidence for the theory of evolution by natural selection or the geological age of the Earth.
First the easy part. Searh for yourself :-)
I haven't really researched it but if you Google for "joseph of arimathea tin mines england" you get a lot of pages to read.
Digging a bit deeper and you will find he founded the first church in England.
Google for "ancient jews and phoenicians"
In an American cave the ten commandments in ancient Hebrew script were found. That should point to very ancient travel. But when following the 'Indians decent from Hebrews' theories it may just as well been them. Modernday linguists found that Indian languages contain a lot of ancient Hebrew. But the theory is that they didn't sail, but walk to America. Which is possible if you walk from Israel all the way trough Russia and then to Cananda. What's now the Bering Strait was once a landbridge due to lower water levels etc. :Chinscratch:
About rightous. Yeah I know which contradictions you are talking about. Abraham and Noach were rightous and friends of God.
I don't have a verse for you right now; I'm in a hurry or just plain lazy...
In the NT there is a whole passage about being in Christ and keeping the law.
It's said that seeking salvation by doing the works of the law is allowed, is possible. But then all the law has to be kept. Only Christ succeeded in that approach. The other way to gain salvation is through/in Christ.
When you strip away all stuff not strictly needed for this discussion something interesting surfaces.
If we have two Jews who are 100% the same; one seeks salvation in by keeping the Laws and the other one in Christ, then the first one fails. The second one succeeds while he commited the same sins as the first one.
That person is condemed by the Law he follows.
So let's assume Jesus isn't born yet. God looks down and states not one is rightous. Then God looks down again shortly after Jesus died and He will probebly state He finds rightous people in/through His Son. The very same people with the same sins.
For pre-Moses people when all those laws weren't given yet, it was easier not to live by that law, simply because it was unknown.
But Scripture also says people did still sin even they weren't under that law because God never told anyone about it. But it was not held against them.
Abraham was the friend of God (James 2:23). He believed and honored God without keeping all those laws. Maybe that's the difference. But obviously not so for David.
But should we really have that discussion?
All saved isn't about keeping laws and stuff because everyone agrees that not possible. For some because they think God threw the Law in the trash when Jesus rose from the dead, for others because they know keeping the law 100% isn't possible, etc.
Even Jews believe that. Following the Law is needed according to them, but it still requires grace from God to reach their goal.
So at the very end of whatever discussion we land on the topic of grace. Many claim grace only comes through believing in Christ. All who don't are doomed. That's a overly simplified view. For example, is God's friend Abraham now in hell because he didn't speak favorble words about Jesus? Would it be like this?
Abraham dies and appears before the Judgement Seat. Then God say "Howdy Abraham my big friend! See that man sitting at the righthand side of me. That's Christ my Son. You never believed in Him my friend Abraham. The fact that He was born 1000s of years after you doesn't matter. I'll dump you in hell, until never my good friend!"
So the discussion shouldn't be who's rightous, who's sinless, who deserves heaven, etc.
The discussion should be:
- On which grounds, conditions does theFather gives His grace?
- When does He give His grace?
Only when someone can answer that question, that person can prove the extent of 'all'.
Also read the verses in my signature.
Yeah, when I brought up the tin mines and the Americas in reply to you mentioning them I did so in the wider context of scriptural veracity. I don't think it's important if those things are true or not (although Jews in America is presumably very interesting to Mormons) because it is because the scope of scripture. But I know that if I did research it say, the flood narrative I'd have huge problems in regard to Egyptian archaeology because Egypt has an unbroken history that passes through when all but Noah was meant to be drowned, yet it is important to that story that the decedents of Noah are the fathers of all Biblical nations including Egypt. Although I can't thinking that Egyptian records sound suspiciously perfect.
QuoteIt's said that seeking salvation by doing the works of the law is allowed, is possible. But then all the law has to be kept.
Is it be or does this passage contradict it's self, keeping all of the law is not possible, therefore salvation by keeping the is not possible. You meant theoretically possible didn't you. Sorry to nitpick but I feel we're involve in a conversation where accuracy may be important.
QuoteOnly Christ succeeded in that approach.
Did He, not by the letter, certainly. I otherwise wonder how much mitigation is allowed in keeping the law. Christ died by crucifixion (not His fault) even though there is no precedent for this in the law. According to the law the punishment for blasphemy (what Jesus was officially executed for) was death by stoning but as I am led to believe (despite the ironic opening of Life of Brian) the Jews weren't actually allowed to stone people because if they wanted to execute someone they had to go through their Roman occupiers who proscribed crucifixion.
But the law says that Jews are to execute those worthy of death by stoning (or burning in the case of Priest daughters who choose prostitution), to show no pity, and all society is to participate in this act. Is it sinful not to participate in this process? What sort of mitigation does God give when you can't?
Even though Jesus had no sin did He participate in certain sacrifices for sin to keep up appearances, because it might look weird if He didn't? Maybe not, He doesn't sound like the type to pander but I wonder how He could have avoided it before He became of age.
QuoteFor pre-Moses people when all those laws weren't given yet, it was easier not to live by that law, simply because it was unknown.
But Scripture also says people did still sin even they weren't under that law because God never told anyone about it. But it was not held against them.
Ah, no! Here's the thing. So far as I can tell before the giving of the law God gave one rule to man, which they broke. In the very next generation Cain killed Abel, which I have a few questions about but only one is pertinent here, so far as I can tell God never gave any commandment against killing at this point, yet He still held it against Cain when he slayed his brother and Cain didn't seem surprised by this even though he wasn't comfortable. God never told him fratricide was wrong but he obviously knew it was. And God responded as such.
He supposedly didn't tell people that anything was wrong prior to Moses giving the law to the Israelites but this didn't stop Him drowning the body of them, incinerating the cities of the plain, and heaping plague upon on plague upon the Egyptians. The Bible does say that God didn't impute their sins to people while they weren't under the law but He sure behaved like He did. And the justification for both the destruction of the cities of the plain and the plagues of Egypt was the greatness of the complaint against them. So obviously people knew what sin was and didn't need the law to tell them. Or at east they knew what evil was which was enough for God to respond to it.
QuoteEven Jews believe that. Following the Law is needed according to them, but it still requires grace from God to reach their goal.
Since when? If it was before Jesus doesn't that mean Paul introduced precisely nothing new?
QuoteSo at the very end of whatever discussion we land on the topic of grace. Many claim grace only comes through believing in Christ. All who don't are doomed. That's a overly simplified view. For example, is God's friend Abraham now in hell because he didn't speak favorble words about Jesus? Would it be like this?
Abraham dies and appears before the Judgement Seat. Then God say "Howdy Abraham my big friend! See that man sitting at the righthand side of me. That's Christ my Son. You never believed in Him my friend Abraham. The fact that He was born 1000s of years after you doesn't matter. I'll dump you in hell, until never my good friend!"
Non sequitur: Jesus makes it very clear Abraham knew who He was even if the Old Testament doesn't make it so clear, but appearances of God the Son in the Old Testament can still be recognised by lines like 'I will be with you.'
If Adam really is the forefather of all mankind than that really gives away what the scope of all is, but since that prospect seems to require a lot of incest and blunt trust in the text of the Bible in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary it's not so clear. Perhaps it's enough that in the context of the rest of the Bible, that's what 'Adam' means. I guess that may be what has to be concluded.
Quote from: CST on June 02, 2018, 01:19:50 PM
QuoteOnly Christ succeeded in that approach.
Did He, not by the letter, certainly. I otherwise wonder how much mitigation is allowed in keeping the law. Christ died by crucifixion (not His fault) even though there is no precedent for this in the law. According to the law the punishment for blasphemy (what Jesus was officially executed for) was death by stoning but as I am led to believe (despite the ironic opening of Life of Brian) the Jews weren't actually allowed to stone people because if they wanted to execute someone they had to go through their Roman occupiers who proscribed crucifixion.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/Crucifixion/index.html (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/Crucifixion/index.html)
QuoteFor pre-Moses people when all those laws weren't given yet, it was easier not to live by that law, simply because it was unknown.
But Scripture also says people did still sin even they weren't under that law because God never told anyone about it. But it was not held against them.
QuoteAh, no! Here's the thing. So far as I can tell before the giving of the law God gave one rule to man, which they broke. In the very next generation Cain killed Abel, which I have a few questions about but only one is pertinent here, so far as I can tell God never gave any commandment against killing at this point, yet He still held it against Cain when he slayed his brother and Cain didn't seem surprised by this even though he wasn't comfortable. God never told him fratricide was wrong but he obviously knew it was. And God responded as such.
We aren't told the full story about Eden I think. We know God did forbid eating from the tree, but we were told after the fact.
When Adam was kicked out of Eden they brought sacrifices to God, but no such command is written.
God commanded them to work, but that word is (strongly connected to) worship.
So perhaps God gave more rules to Adam than are written down.
God also visited in the cool of the day. Did the only discuss the weather or something more?
QuoteHe supposedly didn't tell people that anything was wrong prior to Moses giving the law to the Israelites but this didn't stop Him drowning the body of them, incinerating the cities of the plain, and heaping plague upon on plague upon the Egyptians. The Bible does say that God didn't impute their sins to people while they weren't under the law but He sure behaved like He did. And the justification for both the destruction of the cities of the plain and the plagues of Egypt was the greatness of the complaint against them. So obviously people knew what sin was and didn't need the law to tell them. Or at east they knew what evil was which was enough for God to respond to it.
Indeed they knew. The law was written on their heart. Most believe that's a NT thing, but it's found in Psalms too.
Law of no law, they did know what orders and threats were. God didn't command the Egyptians to worship Him but just admit defeat as in a war. But there is much more hidden in the plagues. It's written God executed judgement on their gods.
And He did. Every plague relates to a certain god that was ascribe a certain power to. All those plagues mock/destroy that particular power or that particular god. So imo, it was not just about getting the Jews out of Egypt, it was also war against the Egyptian gods.
But I see your point, if sins are not held against them, why punish them?
QuoteQuoteEven Jews believe that. Following the Law is needed according to them, but it still requires grace from God to reach their goal.
Since when? If it was before Jesus doesn't that mean Paul introduced precisely nothing new?
I mean Jews that never believed in Jesus. Both ancient and present.
Don't ask me where they got it but the ancients believe after death there is a period of correction that ranges from very short to up to 11 or 12 months.
That could align with a lake of fire type of thing.
QuoteSo at the very end of whatever discussion we land on the topic of grace. Many claim grace only comes through believing in Christ. All who don't are doomed. That's a overly simplified view. For example, is God's friend Abraham now in hell because he didn't speak favorble words about Jesus? Would it be like this?
Abraham dies and appears before the Judgement Seat. Then God say "Howdy Abraham my big friend! See that man sitting at the righthand side of me. That's Christ my Son. You never believed in Him my friend Abraham. The fact that He was born 1000s of years after you doesn't matter. I'll dump you in hell, until never my good friend!"
QuoteNon sequitur: Jesus makes it very clear Abraham knew who He was even if the Old Testament doesn't make it so clear, but appearances of God the Son in the Old Testament can still be recognised by lines like 'I will be with you.'
So Abraham know about what Christ was teaching 2000 years ago. About His resurrection etc?
It's a whole different discussion but it's sometimes not so clear who He or Me is. To get an idea of what I mean please read this: http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/BitsAndPieces/angelofgod.html (http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/BitsAndPieces/angelofgod.html)
QuoteIf Adam really is the forefather of all mankind than that really gives away what the scope of all is, but since that prospect seems to require a lot of incest and blunt trust in the text of the Bible in the face of glaring evidence to the contrary it's not so clear. Perhaps it's enough that in the context of the rest of the Bible, that's what 'Adam' means. I guess that may be what has to be concluded.
I know what you mean. Cain was afraid people attacked him when God sent him away. Attacked by who. How could he found a city etc.
The Hebrew word for Adam can also be read as mankind.
So your point is that 2% of the worldpopulation are of Adam and the other 98% are not. (just making up numbers for the ease of explanation.
If that's so Christ came indeed for a few people.
But it Scripture also states life came in to being trough Christ. The 98% are also life.
Paul wrote - and most agree he was mightily used by God for the 'church' - that all nations upon the face of the earth came from one man.. Acts 17:26 - And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place.
We are still all brothers and sisters. But in those early days the genetic code was not narrowed down, to where marrying a (early) sister or brother was not a danger to those born from that union as it is today. I read once someone did a study of how long it would take for about 25,000 people to exist.. But I don't remember what day that brought them to.. And I do believe what the text says, that living that close to the genesis, the life spans were very long, so each family could keep multiplying and being fruitful for some time.
P.S, also, thinking about the law, in my evening reading was Philippians chapter 3 - A perfect fit! About the law. And of course the word for word interlinear is likely the most revealing - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/3-1.htm - starting with verse 1.
Or, here's the whole chapter, NKJ - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+3&version=NKJV
(..but verse 19, the Greek could read, "whose end/closure/toll is destruction/ruin/loss.."
It seems to me like translators seem often to choose an extreme use of words in their options for translation.
:Peace2:
Hmm, that article looks interesting but I don't think if I read it right now I'd have time to discuss the bigger points. I should make clear that I'm not trying say that Jesus would have some how failed to keep the law by being crucified. If He were it was the Jews of the day that would be in the wrong, more so than they already were, not Him.
But these are the points that immediately jump out at me which the article may or may not address. Hopefully, I'll remember to find out later:
1. The use of the word 'crucify' seems more than a bit inappropriate if Jesus is not in fact being Crucified. Especially in Luke who you would expect his audience to understand it that way.
2. The nail holes in Jesus's hands which Thomas asks to investigate sound like they point to a classic crucifixion. He's not asking to see cuts and grazes from rocks being hurled at Jesus.
2. From all the description in the Bible this also sounds like your standard crucifixion. According to the Bible Jesus was on the cross/tree whatever by noon and dead just shy of three hours later. It should not take three hours to stone someone to death. But actual crucifixion takes time because time is what is doing the killing. If Jesus was killed by stoning as the article you directed me to suggests, why were they surprised how soon Jesus died? All it takes is a good shot to the right place. In a usual crucifixion I can understand them being surprised by an unusually swift death, in a stoning this makes no sense.
4. The water that rushes out Jesus side when the spear goes in is a consequence of how crucifixion works, i.e. internal drowning.
I don't know if they need a command to bring sacrifices to God, the Bible's pretty clear a lot of sacrifices are sycophantic and insincere and don't impress God, what made them think to bring sacrifices is another matter.
I like that the word 'work' is connected to the word 'worship', it sounds like it's as it should be although I think there are a lot of words that imply toil and labour to describe the consequences of 'the fall'.
God is said to visit the Garden in the cool of the day (the evening, I understand) just after they've eaten from the forbidden tree and for some God needs know further excuse than to catch them in their sin. Since He intended a relationship with His creation I also don't think He needed any other excuse than that. But the distinction here is that either God is acting immediately in response to knowledge of their sin or He isn't but if He isn't they shouldn't need more laws while they remain innocent but if He is than we don't really have any reason to read in anything more than we get except that these nagging questions keep turning up.
But the reason they believe it's a New Testament thing is because in the prophets God takes about replacing the law written on stone (the tablets and the Old Covenant) with laws written on their hearts which are in a context which so clearly seems to foretell Jesus that it must be held that those references in the Psalms are also foretelling Jesus and don't refer to the present.
And I do know the stuff about how each of the plagues is a judgement on one of the gods of Eygpt but this seems to connect to concerning Nation of Israel stuff which also seems to contain the justification for the genocide of the nations when Israel received their inheritance. A part of Biblical history that, ironically, secularists think indefensible and archaeologists say doesn't need defending because it can't have happened.
And, in principle I understand why punish them, because some of them might get the benefit. The only point is that I don't see how you can say their sins aren't been imputed to them afterwards when they're being imputed every time they die.
I've heard the Gehenna being a year at most thing, I like it a lot but really wonder if they believed if before Jesus or afterwards because I don't know how reliable it is. Of course the downside is that I think we have to take the end of the Revelation allegorically for anything to work. The Bible basically says there is no Sun, Moon, Day or Night in the New Earth and if that is true then I struggle to see how anyone will reach the other end of that 12 months. Of course, Gehenna may have time and the New Earth doesn't but since time is required for anything to happen I'm pretty much against the concept of the end of time... it sounds ill conceived.
But the question here was on whether or not the salvation by grace thing originated with Paul or if he simply added the salvation by grace through faith of Jesus part.
Jesus used the "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob" quote, God gave to Moses to argue that the Torah supported the concept of resurrection. It doesn't come across well in English but I think the understanding is that because God said "I am" rather than "I was" suggests that in some capacity Abraham, Isaac and Jacob continue to live and so proves the resurrection.
Jesus said that Abraham knew who He was and we can take it from what Jesus says and the context He says it in that whatever detail Abraham had he had enough.
Oh, great! I didn't even know what I meant I hadn't even though of that one. That's the problem with Biblical literalism, you try to interpret one story literally and there's a good chance it'll class with the literal reading of another one. Of course, the thing about literal interpretations is that you forget some of the details you've just read in and assumed and aren't actually supported by the text at all.
But taking your number that would be that 2% of the original population may have been of Adam and 98% not. But only that 2% ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So how did the other 98% become sinful? Maybe they learned it from the 2%? Maybe they weren't created in innocence like Adam was. So they may not be saved by Jesus but they may not need to be.
As I said according to the Bible (whatever archaeology may say about) all the nations of the Earth (those who are blessed through Abraham) are descended from Noah and he is descended from Adam. Biblically, we're covered on all bases at least in a literal sense but, again, archaeology doesn't like that.
So if there are people on the planet that are in no way descended from Noah they might be in danger because they miss the salvation won through Christ. But that seems a little unlikely of God to leave them behind.
Maybe the non-Adam peoples are those other human species scientists occasionally talk about and maybe they aren't made in the image of God and don't quite reach the qualities we do. Of course thinking about what the term 'image of God' means is always dangerous in our sinful state and can lead to unworthy ideas of which this may be one.
Quote from: marie glen on June 03, 2018, 01:15:35 AM
Paul wrote - and most agree he was mightily used by God for the 'church' - that all nations upon the face of the earth came from one man.. Acts 17:26 - And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place.
Yes, but as I just mentioned that man could, in theory, be Noah and I'm pretty sure that's generally taken to mean Jesus.
I'm not following this thread very well.. I don't know what article.. but I do know Jesus said "if I be lifted up from the Earth" which most agree and it seems logical means His manner of death, as Rome was the only one allowed to crucify, which was done by lifting up on a cross or tree.. I think people make everything way more complicated than it is.. Want to come up with some new ground breaking discovery.. Who got this idea of stoning? It's not in the Bible..
I don't know about the article, but sometimes I think people "just like to hear themselves talk" - an old saying, lol. Take Paul out of the bible..? Paul said Abraham's faith was imputed to him for righteousness - Genesis 15:6 - Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
And there's verses about the light shining unto the gentiles.. and the book of acts shows the Spirit doing just that.. Jesus told the disciples power would come upon them and they would be His witnesses in Jerusalem, in Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.. And that just what occurred, has occurred and is occurring.
I would also lean toward suspecting a troll if the righteousness of Jesus is being questioned.. by a nonbeliever, fine.. but a 'believer'.. oy.
Also the secular world does not realize the nations around Israel whom God wanted annihilated were heavily into human sacrifice.. now perhaps some would think it mercy that it remain a force in the world and have descendants of it.. kind of reminds me of voices you sometimes hear who seem to think hitler, for instance should have been allowed to dominate the world.. or maybe wishful thinking would have provided a remedy.. and the spirit today that seems to want terrorism to go unhindered and un-harassed.. Peace, in this world, unfortunately, is not aLways the best way. What about a bully beating up much smaller children.. Pacifism demanded? Any way, on Judgment 'Day' they will no longer be judging God..
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 04, 2018, 08:40:54 PM
Just a couple thoughts, sure people like WW will go into more detail, but anyway...
If you are referring to the physical image, then yes, that already happened. But, if you are talking about the Spiritual image of God, that is STILL going on. In Hebrew and Greek, it is in the Aorist tense. Basically meaning it is still continuing. Same with God locking up everyone in disobedience, stretching out the heavens, etc.
What do you think this experience of evil God gives us is for? Because He was bored? That there was nothing to do? No, because it is the only way to be like Him. Knowing Good and Evil are inseparable. Take a look at the fruit, for example. Did the two get into one fruit because He was stupid? Of course He knew what He was doing.
I wasn't talking about the physical, I don't have a problem with God the Father having a matching physical image of us, He may have created one for the purpose and a realm to put it in; I don't think it makes any difference to our relationship with Him. Jesus as incarnate obviously did the Holy Spirit certainly doesn't. As for the idea it comes from marrying the relevant terms in Genesis 1 and 2 where no such marriage is necessarily invited.
Here I was talking about my suggestion that we are somehow superior to the other, now extinct, human species that science says there were because it served my very hypothetical idea and could in fact be a huge slight on those species. Cleaving to this idea is one of the strongest reasons Fundamentalists reject Evolution out of hand, the Bible teaches humans are made in the image of God and from the dust of the Earth, not desended from some series of earlier apes (and the rest) which are all inherently less than us not being made in God's image.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 04, 2018, 08:40:54 PMSpeaking of that, who said anything about being created innocent?
25And they are both of them naked, the man and his wife, and they are not ashamed of themselves.
They were naked but not ashamed of it. If you think this was just physical nakedness, you will not understand this book. The Spirit of God is necessary for understanding these words, CST. Not by how much worldly wisdom you have, not by how much verses you know of, and not even by reading these things over and over 'till you're blue in the face! Heard of a guy named John Van Dyke, who memorized 12,000 verses. Do you think he understands these words? Nope! Heard of another guy, who had 7 DOCTORATES, and could speak GREEK and HEBREW FLUENTLY. Doesn't even know what the Gospel is.
I'm pretty sure beings that have not yet sinned would qualify as innocent. Paul certainly seems to argue that Adam and Jesus are identical up until the point Adam sins and Jesus doesn't. As long as Adam obeyed God he was innocent, after he disobeyed he wasn't. Disobedience to God is the only sin there actually is.
As far as being naked not being purely physical, yes, I'm sure it isn't, yet this is what our attention is drawn to when the sin occurs:
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." (Gen. 3:7)
They obviously weren't so good at covering there spiritual nakedness.
"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them." (Gen. 3:21)
Again, not spiritually so far as can be ascertained. You can understand why the reader would be drawn to think of their nudity in terms of the physical when it says thing like this?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 04, 2018, 08:40:54 PMGen 3:6
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
1 John 2:16
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Remember, this is BEFORE they ate the fruit.
Yes, but after the serpent had told her it would make her like God, this fact is a major problem for free will because the idea that led her to sin didn't originate with her. If the serpent hadn't whispered in her ear who knows how long she could have gone on obeying God. Of course, if you reject the literal presence of the serpent this distinction becomes almost meaningless, if you don't it makes a big difference.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 04, 2018, 08:40:54 PMAnd, speaking of "context" and "literal" interpretation. Yes, context CAN help. But, to think it is the SOLE determining factor to determine the meaning of the words, it isn't. As mentioned above, the Spirit of God is your FOUNDATION. Without it, you are building a house on sand. And, this is what we use for establishing Scriptural truths:
Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses or three witnesses, the one about to die shall be put to death. He shall not be put to death at the mouth of one witness.
Deu 19:15 A single witness shall not rise against a man regarding any depravity or any sin. In any sin which one may sin, the matter shall be confirmed at the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses.
Mat 18:16 Yet if ever he should not be hearing, take still one or two others along with you, that at the mouth of two witnesses, or of three, every declaration may be made to stand.
That's right. In two or three witnesses, is how you establish a Scriptural Truth. As a witness/verse on its own is not its OWN interpretation, but you need Minimum 2 or 3 to establish a truth. Even if there are only 2 verses for that truth, this does not make that any less true.
"In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me." (John 8:17-18)
and yet immediately before:
You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me. (John 8:15-16)
I think these a supposed to essentially be the same thing yet I can't help thinking that if Jesus testifies for Himself He inevitably testifies against anyone who doesn't and thus judges them so this passage sounds a bit strange. it all sounds very confused to me. But is clearly what the two or three witness laws refers to.
But scripture isn't as reliable as you suggest there, it's two easy to twist so that two pieces of text that seem to agree to one reader can contradict to another. Scripture is not that dependable but I think I provided two quotes that support the physical nakedness on Adam and Eve as being a significant touch point in Genesis 3.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 04, 2018, 08:40:54 PMPsalm 119:160
160The sum of Thy word [is] truth, And to the age [is] every judgment of Thy righteousness!
Isaiah 28:10
10For rule [is] on rule, rule on rule, line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there
And how do we live?
Day 8:3
3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.
Mat 4:4
4But he answering said, 'It hath been written, Not upon bread alone doth man live, but upon every word coming forth from the mouth of God.
So, as shown above, the SUM of all these words is truth. Take even one away, and do you still have the whole?
I can't answer that as I don't know what you're trying to say with them. Out of context they look like gibberish. Well not gibberish but I can't see the relationship you're seeing.
Quote from: marie glen on June 05, 2018, 06:11:58 AM
I'm not following this thread very well.. I don't know what article.. but I do know Jesus said "if I be lifted up from the Earth" which most agree and it seems logical means His manner of death, as Rome was the only one allowed to crucify, which was done by lifting up on a cross or tree.. I think people make everything way more complicated than it is.. Want to come up with some new ground breaking discovery.. Who got this idea of stoning? It's not in the Bible..
I don't know about the article, but sometimes I think people "just like to hear themselves talk" - an old saying, lol. Take Paul out of the bible..? Paul said Abraham's faith was imputed to him for righteousness - Genesis 15:6 - Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
And there's verses about the light shining unto the gentiles.. and the book of acts shows the Spirit doing just that.. Jesus told the disciples power would come upon them and they would be His witnesses in Jerusalem, in Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.. And that just what occurred, has occurred and is occurring.
I would also lean toward suspecting a troll if the righteousness of Jesus is being questioned.. by a nonbeliever, fine.. but a 'believer'.. oy.
Also the secular world does not realize the nations around Israel whom God wanted annihilated were heavily into human sacrifice.. now perhaps some would think it mercy that it remain a force in the world and have descendants of it.. kind of reminds me of voices you sometimes hear who seem to think hitler, for instance should have been allowed to dominate the world.. or maybe wishful thinking would have provided a remedy.. and the spirit today that seems to want terrorism to go unhindered and un-harassed.. Peace, in this world, unfortunately, is not aLways the best way. What about a bully beating up much smaller children.. Pacifism demanded? Any way, on Judgment 'Day' they will no longer be judging God..
"He who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him; the sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death." (Lev. 24:16)
This is the law of God. Jesus was found guilty of blasphemy and thus the punishment demanded is death by stoning, giving this fact death by crucifixion is obviously unlawful. Some commentators see a huge problem that Jesus didn't did in the lawfully proscribed manner in realising God's promise. Personally I think since Jesus was innocent there was nothing lawful about His death but as i say some people want to argue that He was stoned in the proscribed Old Testament manner rather than crucified in the Roman one which they think doesn't fulfil the law. Personally I think crucifixion makes the point better, a species that does that is a species that definitely needs saving and really doesn't deserve it.
And I'm not questioning the righteousness of Jesus, just how much is actually required to bring that righteousness about.
And the secular world doesn't care that the surrounding nations were appalling as they conclude that any God as wonderful as ours claims to be should provide a better example than He seems to here.
Dialog with the world does not need to descend to the world's level, only pristine Truth will aid them.. And the world will not be judging God.. And it is empty air to dance to their tune. The scripture, yes, meaning the Bible, including Paul's writings as Peter called it scripture by saying "and the rest of the scripture do un-established ones twist" And Paul writing to Timothy who worked so close w/Paul, said all scripture is for the person of God's instruction that they be complete/adequate for the work..
And so many more verses.. If a whole multitude of people sprang from the earth over millions of years, breathing while their lungs so slowly formed? And by hit and miss found foods and.. (imo, it's a ridiculous theory that claims man to be the highest power / god, deciding good and evil; "seats himself as god").
If there was a world full of (inferior :faint: ) people somehow come about God still would lose none as He can only be perfect, or He too would fade away.. And perfect can lose nothing.. knows all.. makes no mistakes..
But yes, the debate about origins REALLY does need to move on to " what sort of intelligence designed/created?" As a lot of new knowledge and data after Darwin has come to light. Darwin.. the false prophet began as a man but evolved (pun intended :laughing7: ) into a white smocked magician with many miracles and wonders up his sleeve even ye.. enabled Rev 13:13.. so huge like the false prophet that no one sees them..
Jesus will rule with an "iron rod". Which is? And can only be? Truth. Because one CANNOT break truth but breaks ones self upon it.. "undefiled un-stained with woman" Greek is singular.. in the last days.. spiritual virgins w their foreheads sealed - no more religion/faith/belief in the female principle as origins.. that other (pagan) faith which Gnosticism was a loose connection of the more esoteric elements of the world's pagan beliefs.. female in essence.. mother gods, faint memories of eve? Corrupted/confiscated..?
Iron rule(r) - the measure.. without God's Word, I believe ones faith will wander into these other tempting 'esiteric' leanings.. spots and stains.. rather than found spotless at His coming..
The measure of true from untrue w/o it our faith becomes, I believe, like salt that has lost its savior.. but also! works to mislead others.. who are also seeking.. such decievers Paul said seeking truth but never finding.. leading astray.. why add to God's word or take away from its importance..
P.S. -
Quotebetween Theologians and Scripture, I will always go with Scripture.
amen.. and if the cultural laws of the old testament are misunderstood in this age, imo, the fault has to be with one's understanding.. Not with God, nor with His inspired Word.. :gsmile:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 05, 2018, 04:56:33 PM
Well, I reject "free will" (as well.) Would they have obeyed God from the heart, though? Remember, that in the old Covenant/Law the heart motive was not looked at/revealed yet. In the new/better Covenant, even looking upon and lusting after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart.
James 1:13-15
13Let no one say, being tempted — 'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
14and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,
15afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.
Especially take note of v. 15, and compare it with Gen 3:6 and 1 John 2:16 that I listed earlier. They desired the sins of the world, yes?
Honestly, I don't see why not. The heart seeks after God by design. It's only the introduction of sin into the human condition afterwards that can confuse it and draw it away. If I've understood you correctly you already seem to reject the tradition idea of 'the fall' but I may be mistake on that.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 05, 2018, 04:56:33 PMWell, yes, to the carnal mind, who has not been given the understanding to know the meaning of these words, of course they wouldn't know. But yes, upon first glance the only notable thing would probably be their nakedness. Isn't all these words one giant parable? Without God's wisdom, you won't know what it means, but only what it says.
To the carnal mind? That's basically everyone who's going to read it. If no-one is going to understand it correctly unless the Holy Spirit comes along and tells them how to read it there's no purpose for it to exist. God may as well just make personal visits to anyone He wants to reveal His truth too, the Bible is utterly useless. Even the reading for the carnally minded must be instructive to some degree or else it's more likely to be deceptive and then God kind of would be tempting people because He'd given them something He knew was as likely to lead them astray as lead them to Him.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 05, 2018, 04:56:33 PMOn the first part, did you see it? There are still 2 witnesses, not just one only. I'm pretty sure that is also not the only thing it refers to.
On context, it is quite simple actually. If there is anything other then a period at the end of a sentence, you know it usually is not the end of the sentence. Secondly, that is what discernment is for, is it not? Third, that is what Scripture tells us how it establishes Truth, so between Theologians and Scripture, I will always go with Scripture.
How do you define "twisting" the Scriptures? If a verse is a witness, and you need 2 or 3 in establishing a truth, what is the problem with that? It is a problem for the world, that's for sure. They know nothing of Spiritual principles and truths, and just tarnish the Word of God with their own traditions. They confine everything to context. Even following what God reveals to us through His Spirit, they don't like that! They despise these things. Don't think so? Show them verses on something like the salvation of all. Or tithing, or any other one of their traditions.
Remember Isaiah 28:10? Does it say "here a lot, there a lot?" No! Instead, "here a little, there a little." Each witness is also a line, right? So, "Line upon line."
But herein lies you problem, the Hebrew and Greek have no punctuation in their texts. Whether or not there's a period there depends on whether or not the theologians doing the translating decided there should be one. The same with all punctuation marks and you've already concluded they lack wisdom.
In the same way the books of the Bible weren't written divided into chapter and verse, some of our theologians have decided to do that to make certain passages more accessible so no verse can be held as an original witness.
This is the mistake you're making, you're taking a law that was clearly devised to protect against fatal miscarriages of justice (not always successfully I suspect) and using it to make claims about the veracity of the Bible. There are lots of verses in the Bible that have no parallel elsewhere but that doesn't mean we conclude that what they say is false. Lots of laws in the Torah, for example, are given only once. In some case we're told of various violations but the expected verses on what to do if people violate those laws appear to be absent.
If you want to I can quote three verses from Psalms and Proverbs that make UR are look more than a bit shaky which seem to go beyond simple mistranslation yet I don't doubt the Bible supports UR.
Here are some other problematic examples from scripture of the law under discussion:
"If a malicious witness rises against any man to accuse him of wrongdoing, then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days; the judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you."(Deut. 19:16-19)
Fine, if a person is caught giving false testimony they shall receive as they intended the person they accused. Ok, seems fair enough. Kind of. Compare this to:
""If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and then spurns her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings an evil name upon her, saying, 'I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her the tokens of virginity,' hen the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the tokens of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate; and the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man to wife, and he spurns her; and lo, he has made shameful charges against her, saying, "I did not find in your daughter the tokens of virginity." And yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip him; and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought an evil name upon a virgin of Israel; and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has wrought folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you." (Deut. 22:13-22)
As seen above the law saw that anyone found to have brought false evidence against someone else should false the penalty the one they accused would receive. Not so hear the accusation if founded will bring the woman's death but if unfounded the accuser will simply be flogged, fined and then she'll be stuck with the man who tried to murder her for the rest of her life. Well, what a wonderful law that is.
Also just below that is the classic OT rape law always guaranteed to get atheists and feminists up in arms, and rightly so:
'"If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you."' (Deut. 22:23-24)
Nice, so if her gags her and rapes her, or silences her by threat of violence or she screams herself hoarse and no one bothers to come but later someone comes and catches them, she dies. What a wonderful way to treat a victim of rape. Oh, it gets better:
'"But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die But to the young woman you shall do nothing; in the young woman there is no offense punishable by death, for this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor; because he came upon her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her. (Deut. 22:25-27)
Oh, well. That's slightly better if we gloss over the question this sexist society is bound to ask about what a woman is doing alone in open country at least only he dies for raping her. Oh, but wait no he doesn't because no one witnessed the attack because no one was there or they could say whether she screamed or not.
So basically we've got his word against hers and she is one witness and he cannot be put to death on her testimony alone it's unlawful. But he can get one of his friends to back him up and say he was no where near where the rape took place and then she gets executed under the false testimony law... fantastic!
And still it gets worse:
'"If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days. (Deut. 22:28-29)"'
Ah, married forever to the man who raped her, she might prefer death! Atheists and feminists are understandably appalled by all this it gives the woman no right to reply against her abuser at all. Someone seems not to understand the psychological damage rape actually does, but as that some one seems to be God it's more than a bit concerning and so much so I have to suspect there may be a lesser degree of inspiration here.
Certainly none of these laws appears to be repeated elsewhere in the Bible although I doubt that means the Israelites were free to just ignore God's word.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 05, 2018, 04:56:33 PMWell, considering I "tried" to establish a truth the way God tells us to, it is not in my power to tell you the meaning of these words. I can only tell you OF that meaning, but only through the Holy Spirit, can that meaning be showed to you. Not to say I have been revealed all truth. I don't have all of it, and only up to God how much is revealed to me. If I don't follow these principles right, then that's on me. But, if I did, then that's only up to Him when it is revealed.
Maybe we should stop with this discussion. If you have any burning questions, then try just continuing with just those points. I could see this going on and on for pages and pages, with nothing fruitful accomplished, and end up with a locked thread and angry people. Even changing your mind, is not changing your opinion. (Or is it the opposite?)
I do pray for you, that these things will be revealed to you. No, I am not trying to sound pious or self righteous or self boasting. I really do mean that.
Yes, I think that at this point we should probably stop the discussion to because I'm already on the verge of feeling angry myself and am certainly feeling insulted. And you certainly do sound self-righteous suggesting you know better than I do about how to read scripture, even the leadership of the Westboro Baptist Church have made that claim about scripture and obviously I disagree with them. And if you are correct I would certainly second your prayer but if you are mistaken, as I suspect you are, I would rather pray you lead no others into error and are yourself rescued from yours.
I think generally if scripture says something once it's enough to establish that it is in someway the truth and I also agree that a lot of scripture is allegorical, but I think that scripture is dependant on the context is is presented for its sense and cannot simply be broken down into its constituent verses. The allegory of Eden is found in the meaning of the whole not necessarily in any one of its parts.
Yeah, I think the tone and content of some of this leaves a bit to be desired. Probably time to give it a break.