~My conclusions so far...~

[peteresther]

Hello there all you nice people!

Yes, this forum is blessed with so many nice people! Thank you all of you who made me feel so welcome, and who have helped me.

For now, I would like to keep the concept of UR in mind. That said, I do believe that there are arguments for UR and for ET as well as for annihilation. Until I get a supernatural revelation, this is my stance!

However, I take away something good with me. I am just not sure what will happen to all mankind eventually, but at least I now have some hope which I previously did not have.

Thank you forum members, and thank you Tentmakers! :thumbsup:

Esther :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

Is that a goodbye message?

[sparrow]

However, I take away something good with me. I am just not sure what will happen to all mankind eventually, but at least I now have some hope which I previously did not have.

I'm glad.  :girlheart:


I hope this isn't a goodbye message, but if it is...
Please come back, anytime.
:HeartThrob:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Welcome with Love. Lee

[peacemaker]

There are Three Fundamental Doctrines:

ETERNAL TORMENTS IN HELL
For those who do not believe of their own free will, or who are not elected to salvation, which is the majority of humanity?

ANNIHILATION
All of the wicked, again the majority of humanity?

RECONCILIATION
Complete Restoration of All things, including humanity in due time and order?

After an in depth study of each of these, there are seven questions to ask yourself. Which reflects the fullness of Glory and Grace, exhibits Love and Mercy that overcomes All Things, bears more Fruit, fills your mind and heart with a purpose; to proclaim the Gospel to the world? Is filled with Agape Love; the Love of Christ and God the Father? Is truly Good News? And that Jesus Christ was/is sent to accomplish?

Now, which would you consider to be Truth?

YOU HAVEN'T WASTED THE WAVE, for the SPIRIT testifies with your Spirit!

peacemaker

[legoman]

There are Three Fundamental Doctrines:

ETERNAL TORMENTS IN HELL
For those who do not believe of their own free will, or who are not elected to salvation, which is the majority of humanity?

ANNIHILATION
All of the wicked, again the majority of humanity?

RECONCILIATION
Complete Restoration of All things, including humanity in due time and order?

After an in depth study of each of these, there are seven questions to ask yourself. Which reflects the fullness of Glory and Grace, exhibits Love and Mercy that overcomes All Things, bears more Fruit, fills your mind and heart with a purpose; to proclaim the Gospel to the world? Is filled with Agape Love; the Love of Christ and God the Father? Is truly Good News? And that Jesus Christ was/is sent to accomplish?

Now, which would you consider to be Truth?

YOU HAVEN'T WASTED THE WAVE, for the SPIRIT testifies with your Spirit!

peacemaker

That was a good way to present it peacemaker, I will have to remember that one.  People always make arguments that all 3 views can be found in scripture, yet only one of them can be the answer for your 7 questions.

[claypot]

There are Three Fundamental Doctrines:

ETERNAL TORMENTS IN HELL
For those who do not believe of their own free will, or who are not elected to salvation, which is the majority of humanity?

ANNIHILATION
All of the wicked, again the majority of humanity?

RECONCILIATION
Complete Restoration of All things, including humanity in due time and order?

After an in depth study of each of these, there are seven questions to ask yourself. Which reflects the fullness of Glory and Grace, exhibits Love and Mercy that overcomes All Things, bears more Fruit, fills your mind and heart with a purpose; to proclaim the Gospel to the world? Is filled with Agape Love; the Love of Christ and God the Father? Is truly Good News? And that Jesus Christ was/is sent to accomplish?

Now, which would you consider to be Truth?

YOU HAVEN'T WASTED THE WAVE, for the SPIRIT testifies with your Spirit!

peacemaker

Hey pm, we both know that everyone thinks their version of God's plan is the right one and they would answer your questions without a problem, to them anyway.

Good questions though. Gives one pause to contemplate.

cp

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hello there all you nice people!

Yes, this forum is blessed with so many nice people! Thank you all of you who made me feel so welcome, and who have helped me.

For now, I would like to keep the concept of UR in mind. That said, I do believe that there are arguments for UR and for ET as well as for annihilation. Until I get a supernatural revelation, this is my stance!

However, I take away something good with me. I am just not sure what will happen to all mankind eventually, but at least I now have some hope which I previously did not have.

Thank you forum members, and thank you Tentmakers! :thumbsup:

Esther :bigGrin:

The greatest thing is that your studying and considering.   One point I revisit from time to time so as not to get stale in my beliefs is to ponder what point of view offers absolute assurance even if you believe.

The anihillationists nor the ETers in any sense can demonstrate absolute assurance.   They can claim it and those claims will have the same merit as my sighting of a unicorn last night.

:icon_jokercolor:

[legoman]

I think several of peacekmaker's questions can only be fully answered with UR.

- Which doctrine bears more fruit?  What is the "fruit" of people being tormented for eternity?
- What is the "best" good news?  Is it good news to know you are saved but your great grandmother is burning forever?
- Which doctrine shows the most love?  Is it love to create a place of eternal torture?

If you answer these questions honestly, you can only be led to UR.  The problem is people don't answer them honestly.  I've seen people claim its not about God's love, but its about His justice.  God must punish sin for eternity blah blah blah.  Furthermore the good news is not for everyone (then why is it "good" news?), and the "fruit" of people being torment for eternity is that God's glory gets to shine through His wrath.

Yes people find answers to suit their twisted views.

[legoman]

Hello there all you nice people!

Yes, this forum is blessed with so many nice people! Thank you all of you who made me feel so welcome, and who have helped me.

For now, I would like to keep the concept of UR in mind. That said, I do believe that there are arguments for UR and for ET as well as for annihilation. Until I get a supernatural revelation, this is my stance!

However, I take away something good with me. I am just not sure what will happen to all mankind eventually, but at least I now have some hope which I previously did not have.

Thank you forum members, and thank you Tentmakers! :thumbsup:

Esther :bigGrin:

The greatest thing is that your studying and considering.   One point I revisit from time to time so as not to get stale in my beliefs is to ponder what point of view offers absolute assurance even if you believe.

The anihillationists nor the ETers in any sense can demonstrate absolute assurance.   They can claim it and those claims will have the same merit as my sighting of a unicorn last night.

:icon_jokercolor:

Yes.  You could even be so bold to say that if eternal torment is true, then God is a liar -> because then, Love would not cover all wrongs, and Love would fail.  And if God is a liar, then we are all doomed, because there is no assurance that God will save anyone.  But I don't believe God is a liar!   :bigGrin:

[reFORMer]

First is the story of the shepherd (Jesus, "the son,") a man, ..."having a hundred sheep" (Lk 14:4) leaving the ninety and nine sheep to find the one lost little kid (lamb or goat...and 99+1=100%.)  Then He gathered everybody together to rejoice.

Between that and the last of these three parable, this one in the midst of two others concerns the woman ("Holy Spirit," spirit is feminine) who was, "...lighting a lamp and sweeping the house and seeking carefully till she may be finding..." (Lk 15:8) the one of the ten drachmas that she says, "...which I lose." She too gathered everybody together to rejoice.

Last is what we usually refer to as the Prodigal son (who returned to "the Father") in which the Father entreats the elder son to join in the party where everybody was rejoicing, because, "...your brother was dead and revives, and was lost and was found"

The Greek word apollumi is translated in Lk 15 "lost" or "lose." It is the same word taken to mean "annihilate," underlying, "to perish" in John 3:15-16.  That is the strongest word, the one the annihilationists hang their argument on.  As you can see, it just comes out in the wash.

Eternal torment makes all existence untenable.  With an evil God all reality becomes evil.  You must think that ceaselessly torturing for ever the vast majority of humans who have ever lived or who will ever live is a good thing that exemplies love.  This is what is believed, even if many won't face it.

The usual objection atheists make to what they unfortunately think is Christian doctrine, something needed to be believed to be a follower of Jesus, is they cannot believe in a God who would ceaselessly torture for ever anything, much less his own creation.

It must also be kept in mind that you become like your god. The last in Europe to burn heretics at the stake was the English speakers, and this was done in 1401 with making heretico carborendo the law acted upon for over 200 years. To have even parts of the Bible, like the 10 Commandments or the Lords Prayer in English proved you were a heretic to be consigned to temporal flames in hopes of saving you from eternal flames.  According to you He tortures for ever countless sentient beings, with no cessation and no hope of release, all the while whispering to them, "I love you, I love you, I love you." You must be made in the image and likeness of your god, A Master Torturer.  That is your natue and your future.

What is wrong with the eye that cannot discern the difference between darkness and light?

[jfraysse]

Hey Peacemaker:  I too think that the ET/UR debate is not a slam dunk for either side using the Bible as the only reference. :sigh:  Yet, I have no doubt about UR.  Your 7 questions are excellent, especially the last three – Gold!  :thumbsup: Thanks! In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good post, PM! Blessings....

[martincisneros]

I would REFUSE to believe in the Universal Restoration if there were one Biblical passage that didn't add up to it, and I encourage absolutely everyone else to do the same until they've found adequate answers for each and every single Bible passage.  Try to get into some of the 18th century authors in UR for whom the Bible was inerrant and they wouldn't have believed it [either] if there were one opposing passage -- authors like Elhanan Winchester, Charles Chauncy, Sir George Stonehouse, Joseph Huntington, Paul Siegvolk, John Murray, James Riley, and others because back when the Bible was genuinely read by the largest part of the culture that it's ever been read by for hours each and every day, there were much finer UR works that came out than most anything you can find these days that leaves all of the loopholes 'cause of having hewn out for themselves broken cysterns that can hold no water.  Most of what's taken for UR apologetics these days would have been laughed out of the room by both ETers and UR ministers back then as wholly inadequate to prove that one's even renounced one's sins and embraced His Lordship, much less that one even spends dozens of hours in the Word every month.

[legoman]

Hey Peacemaker:  I too think that the ET/UR debate is not a slam dunk for either side using the Bible as the only reference. :sigh:  Yet, I have no doubt about UR.  Your 7 questions are excellent, especially the last three – Gold!  :thumbsup: Thanks! In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Just to clarify, for me it comes down to this.  The ET/UR debate is not a slam dunk for either side only when you are not using a properly translated bible.  That is why both arguments can thrive.  However as soon as you use a properly translated bible, the ET argument disappears.

The scriptures are 100% consistent and teach UR throughout.  ET only gains force because of the mistranslations we are all familiar with here.

[WhiteWings]

But the ETs simply state all proper translations are work of the devil.
Or as on YouTube a ET pastor admitted the majority of the early day church was UR.
But added something similar: There was much heresy at that time; luckily UR and other teachings of the devil were banned.

About every ET scholar must have heard about aion for example. They have acces to the same material as we do.
We will never convice a hardcore ET but I think there is a fair change with the moderate Et pew warmer.

[CHB]

Yes, and did you know that some denominations won't even consider another translation other than the KJV, especially the Baptist, they think it would be heresy.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

CHB,
To be honest I don't even know the difference between a baptist and a protestant and most of the others.
I'm a 1 man denomination :laughing7:

But I'm very well aware for many KJV is the only option. To be more precise KJV-1611 because they don't seem to trust the modern KJV translations either. NKJV is missing hell 33  times. Before I found TM I was reading a big ET site. Dunno the denomination but the KJV-1611 is their measuring stick for all other bibles. The reason that their are less and less modern translations without hell? Simple just because publishers publish what sells best.
Don't even start a discussion with such people. Even a deaf toad will a better audience.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Truly have to say that the VERY WORST Bible I have seen and studied was the NIV , when I wrote the publisher and got the stats on how it came about, even the NIV users would not believe their own publishers word that they screwed up... and threw out their own rules in translation and agreed to use unsuitable means.  It is IN their own writing and publishers header. Just write and ask for info on how you made this bible, on the first page and they will send it to you, you would be blown away with what they did.

[Tony N]

Hey Peacemaker:  I too think that the ET/UR debate is not a slam dunk for either side using the Bible as the only reference. :sigh:  Yet, I have no doubt about UR.  Your 7 questions are excellent, especially the last three – Gold!  :thumbsup: Thanks! In His Love, John :HeartThrob:

Just to clarify, for me it comes down to this.  The ET/UR debate is not a slam dunk for either side only when you are not using a properly translated bible.  That is why both arguments can thrive.  However as soon as you use a properly translated bible, the ET argument disappears.

The scriptures are 100% consistent and teach UR throughout.  ET only gains force because of the mistranslations we are all familiar with here.

legoman, you hit the nail on the head especially the bolded part above! Very good!

[NinjaWizards777]

Just to clarify, for me it comes down to this.  The ET/UR debate is not a slam dunk for either side only when you are not using a properly translated bible.  That is why both arguments can thrive.  However as soon as you use a properly translated bible, the ET argument disappears.

The scriptures are 100% consistent and teach UR throughout.  ET only gains force because of the mistranslations we are all familiar with here.

but even when one is using a "properly" translated bible, ETers then insist that words like aionios cant mean only temporary because "well then life isnt eternal either, mehhh!" or something like that.  and that case can be made, though its not very logical in the grand scheme of things.

[legoman]

But the ETs simply state all proper translations are work of the devil.
Or as on YouTube a ET pastor admitted the majority of the early day church was UR.
But added something similar: There was much heresy at that time; luckily UR and other teachings of the devil were banned.

About every ET scholar must have heard about aion for example. They have acces to the same material as we do.
We will never convice a hardcore ET but I think there is a fair change with the moderate Et pew warmer.

LOL Yes.  But then we are left with all the contradictory stuff in the bible about God willing to save all people while also throwing many people into eternal fire.  Unfortunately what you then come up with is Calvinism.  And Calvinism is some really nasty stuff.

Or you become an Arminian and just read the parts of the bible you like.

The way that most bibles are translated (like KJV, NASB, etc), it leads to an endless fight between Calvinists/Arminians, ETers/Annihilationists, and preterists/futurists. Its a brilliant setup to make sure no one learns the truth.

[Tony N]

Just to clarify, for me it comes down to this.  The ET/UR debate is not a slam dunk for either side only when you are not using a properly translated bible.  That is why both arguments can thrive.  However as soon as you use a properly translated bible, the ET argument disappears.

The scriptures are 100% consistent and teach UR throughout.  ET only gains force because of the mistranslations we are all familiar with here.

but even when one is using a "properly" translated bible, ETers then insist that words like aionios cant mean only temporary because "well then life isnt eternal either, mehhh!" or something like that.  and that case can be made, though its not very logical in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, ninja, you got that right! I think part of the problem is that all Christians mature at different times and so we are constantly baraged with new babes coming along with all their dirty diapers and babble. Sometimes ya just gotta love 'em and wait till they grow up.

Then there are adults who may have gotten saved many years ago and they are still spiritually stunted due to the many years of living life in an theological aquarium bowl.

But every now and then someone comes along like me, fully mature, knows it all and is just so hard to be humble when he is right all the time  :icon_joker:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

ok

[WhiteWings]

But the ETs simply state all proper translations are work of the devil.
Or as on YouTube a ET pastor admitted the majority of the early day church was UR.
But added something similar: There was much heresy at that time; luckily UR and other teachings of the devil were banned.

About every ET scholar must have heard about aion for example. They have acces to the same material as we do.
We will never convice a hardcore ET but I think there is a fair change with the moderate Et pew warmer.

LOL Yes.  But then we are left with all the contradictory stuff in the bible about God willing to save all people while also throwing many people into eternal fire.  Unfortunately what you then come up with is Calvinism.  And Calvinism is some really nasty stuff.

Or you become an Arminian and just read the parts of the bible you like.

The way that most bibles are translated (like KJV, NASB, etc), it leads to an endless fight between Calvinists/Arminians, ETers/Annihilationists, and preterists/futurists. Its a brilliant setup to make sure no one learns the truth.

But it seldom gets to even trying to learn the truth. Just look at a stand ET-UR debate. The UR person makes some claims based on scripture. Instead of proving teh UR interpretation is wrong most often the ET pulls out a classic ET verse. The UR answers that with another UR verse. ETC etc. Then at the end of the debate noone listened.
So it's not only teh translation but ability to listen.