I heard someone say that if the price for sin was eternal torment then Christ didn't actually pay the price because He isn't suffering eternally. This got me thinking about the "price" for sin and who pays it. The Bible says the wages of sin are death.
If Christ paid the price for sin (death) then why do we have to die? It's like we are paying the price again when it's already been paid.
Can someone help me understand this? I hope this post makes sense.
:thumbsup: Well...I'll share with you what He gave me. He didn't intend for us to keep on dying. He intended for us to live a "perfect day". He told Adam in the DAY he ate of the tree he would surely die, and he did, just short of the perfect "day" of 1000 years.
We are becoming one with the day of the Lord, a day of darkness being swallowed up of the light of Christ (read what He gave me on the days in another post), Christ is the perfect "day", 1000 year day is the same as the measurements of the Holy of Holies, 10 times 10 times 10 = 1000. It's a cube, ie. the same on all sides and this cube represents eternity of Spirit, our God has no shadow of turning.
But what really made it life in me, was when He quickened the verse in Deuteronomy to me, where He told the Israelites (our pattern) that if they would keep His statutes and His commandments, He would put NONE of the diseases of the Egyptians upon them. The death of the firstborn is what jumped out at me, in that list. And then in the NT we read, FIRST born of the FLESH, then born of the Spirit. If the flesh is our firstborn, and He puts none of the diseases of the Egyptians (flesh) on us, including the death of the FIRSTBORN.........hmmm. :mshock: Blessings to you in your search for Truth......
Quote from: eternal sanctum on August 29, 2007, 07:25:42 PM
I heard someone say that if the price for sin was eternal torment then Christ didn't actually pay the price because He isn't suffering eternally. This got me thinking about the "price" for sin and who pays it. The Bible says the wages of sin are death.
If Christ paid the price for sin (death) then why do we have to die? It's like we are paying the price again when it's already been paid.
Can someone help me understand this? I hope this post makes sense.
Death has been a part of creation even before Adam ate of the fruit. The very fact there was fruit, means there were seed bearing plants. The only reason you need seed bearing trees, is if trees die and if trees die, then they need to be replenished by seeds. Seeds must die before they can grow.
Genesis 1:11-12Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
John 12:24I tell you the truth, unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.
When Adam ate of the tree, he had no knowledge of this understanding. He would have lived a long life, and eventually have died, but God would have taken care of him in the garden, sustained by the tree of life.
When Adam ate of the tree, he gained a most horrible knowledge, he was dying from the day God created him. In that day he ate of the tree, he was kicked out from the garden, not able to eat of the tree of life that sustained him. In the day he ate of the tree of knowledge. Death was living among him, and he was not touched by it, but now a part from the Garden, death now has power and authority.
So all mankind die, even Jesus Christ died. We are not saved physical death, it is part of the creation we were put into. Adam was going to die off, he just didn't know it. He cut short his life, by eating of the tree beacuse he was kicked out of the garden that sustained him.
Jesus did not save us from this physical existance of death, he saved us from the permanent existance in death, that is, he saved us from complete annialiation.
How did he save us from this? By dying, Jesus humbled himself, but by raising from the dead, He took the keys of death and the grave, he had the power death and the grave were given and defeated them. So now, when you physically die, you have a hope that if Jesus did indeed destroy death, then when you physically die, you will not be dead but raised from the dead in a spiritual body that will not die.
So is our hope in the death of Christ? no. Our hope and salvation has always been in the Resurrection of the Dead.
Acts 23:6Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."
Acts 24:21unless it was this one thing I shouted as I stood in their presence: 'It is concerning the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you today.' "
Romans 1:4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:12-17But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
See?
Someone on here the other day asked if anyone could explain Ezekiel 1st chapter. So that got me
started and I didn't stop that day til the end of the book. It was exhilerating for I was seeing things
I had not seen before ........thank whoever that was; you never know how just one sentence can
set off the motion in someone. . like it only takes a spark to start a fire. ha
Well I said all that to say this: Jesus is the LIFE giver.
He is the GOOD TREE out of whom can come NO corruption.
And the TREE of KNOWLEDGE is the "corrupt" tree, and out of it can come NO GOOD.
LIFE is good.
Life comes from Him.
Jesus said "I am come that ye may have LIFE....and that more abundantly. All that came before ME
are thieves and robbers!!!"
So........
Back to Ezekiel.......what I was seeing that I had not seen before was that the "firmament" was put
in the heavens as a divider of the WATERS. There were LOWER "waters" .......those UNDER the
firmament.......and then there was HIGHER "WATERS" .......Jesus said to that woman that day, "If
you knew the gift of God..........." Everything we get from HIM comes from the HIgher waters.
This I noticed also. New to me........I got this in Ezekiel and it was taking me to Genesis. That was NEW
to me!
And that is what the "LIGHTS" were that were IN the Firmament, what "they" were for: For the Dividing
not of the WATERS, but for the dividing of DAY and Night!
It made me shout inside.
I saw Ezekiel as one of the LIGHTS!
God is so good........
QuoteAnd that is what the "LIGHTS" were that were IN the Firmament, what "they" were for: For the Dividing
not of the WATERS, but for the dividing of DAY and Night!
Hey Red....great thoughts, and it brings to mind the reason I believe we need to die -- We need to die for the same reasons that we must sleep at Night. To be renewed and refreshed and to let the "body" rest and heal, and to dream beautiful dreams as well as get rid of all of our base animal thoughts that are held in the Subconscious state.
:cloud9: Hmmm...... Wonder why did Paul say then that the "goal" was NOT to put off this tabernacle/MORTAL body, but rather that this mortality might be swallowed up of immortality? That's resurrection while STILL IN THE BODY. There are 2 types of resurrections.
Saying this body HAS to die as the only means to resurrect, is the same as saying we have to die to go to heaven, yet Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and plainly told him he was standing right in front of him, but He was in heaven. Wonder how He did that, since His physical body hadn't died yet?
Heaven is not a place, it's a state of being in fellowship with the Father, walking with Him in the cool (means His breath) of the day as Adam did. Thus, the scripture, man shall not live by bread (letter) alone but by every word (Spirit-breathed revelation) that comes from the MOUTH of God. Which is why the HIGH priest went into the presence of God on the day of atonement, BAREFOOT, ie. his feet were ON EARTH, but he was symbolically as well as literally, IN HEAVEN in the presence of the Father. Thank God for Paul, who said he was pressing in for the HIGH calling in Christ Jesus, even though he found out he was a man born out of season.
Or like the one thief on the cross who told Him to remember him when He entered His kingdom, and He told him essentially, TODAY you'll be with me in paradise. TODAY is the day of your salvation, but it's always another day if the carnal mind has it's way.
We have a better covenant than the one the OT people had, and to be better it has to eliminate death while still in the body. Dying in the flesh body, does not overcome death, nor does it make you perfect, which is why it says THEY (that have passed on) cannot be made perfect without US. You're either going to be in the "they" camp, or the "us" camp, and by the grace of God I pray that all present here are destined to be in the "us" camp, this day. There is nothing in the death of the body to make you perfect. What it does do, is steal from Him a vessel to dwell in, to bring perfection. But praise God, if the thief be found, it must make restitution SEVEN TIMES over.
To be carnally minded IS death; the carnal mind is like a spider. It wraps us up in soulish ties like bands, keeping us from moving with the Spirit. And then when the Spirit will tarry with man no longer (because man won't seek His FACE/nature to free himself of the entanglements), the spider comes and sucks the very life out of it's victim. I refuse to make my covenant with death; the carnal mind is emnity towards God, which means it's His enemy, and if His enemy, then it's my enemy, also.
I saw firsthand the battle that ensues when death comes a calling when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer and was hemorrhaging blood in buckets. My mind, my enemy, was speaking to me daily, trying to get me to look at the condition of my body and AGREE with it, and mind's of the doctor's, lab techs, ect., over the word/breath of life I had already received from the Father, which was, "Because of your obedience, you're healed." I refused to make a covenant with death, and rebuked the thieves daily, literally speaking out loud and calling my mind and my body a liar.
When He said let every man be a liar, He also meant, EVERY PART OF MAN, is a liar. If it didn't come directly to you from the Spirit of God, it's a lie, plain and simple, I don't care what it is. And this why so many doctrines of men are falling in this hour, as the Son rises up with healing in His wings, in a people, that are destined to be called by His name/nature, and all the things of darkness we've held onto as truth, are fleeing as shadows in the noonday sun. Blessings to all you overcomers out there........
QuoteWonder why did Paul say then that the "goal" was NOT to put off this tabernacle/MORTAL body, but rather that this mortality might be swallowed up of immortality? That's resurrection while STILL IN THE BODY. There are 2 types of resurrections.
Hello, I will give my two cents. :2c:
Though I agree with you, in the essense. I must point out that is a misunderstanding of Paul's words.
It is very simple. It is not the RESURRECTION OF THE BODY, it is the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. The body is not being resurrected, but dead are. What kind of body are the dead being raised in? An immortal one. The mortal (the dead) putting immortality.
If I was a man living in a shack, I do not wish to be kicked out of my shack, I hope to be transferred to a mansion. In the same way, I don't want to be found without any body, but rather have my mortality swallowed up by immortality. Mortality is speak of man as a being. Not talking about about the body.
What kind of body will man be raised in? He is sown a material, natural, soulish body and raised in a immaterial, supernatural, spiritual body.
So although it appears there is two resurrections, there is actually only one. Jesus is the first fruits, he has made life and immortality come to light. So through Him, we have passed from darkness into the light, dead unto life, but this is not a resurrection this is called being born-again. So what you think is a 'first' resurrection actually is second birth or being Born-Again.
Though man is a soul, that is body and spirit makes a living being. So although the spirit has been made alive, the body is dead and dying. It will die killing man with it because man cannot be without a body or a spirit. The spirit returns to God who gave it, where there is a heavenly body waiting for us. That is the resurrection of the dead.
QuoteSaying this body HAS to die as the only means to resurrect, is the same as saying we have to die to go to heaven, yet Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and plainly told him he was standing right in front of him, but He was in heaven. Wonder how He did that, since His physical body hadn't died yet?
That is Heaven and the Resurrection are not the same thing. The Kingdom of God is not found in any body, therefore it is not going to be found in the resurrection of the dead either. This body must die before one is able to be raised from the dead. Jesus was not talking about the resurrection of the dead he was talking about being born again.
QuoteOr like the one thief on the cross who told Him to remember him when He entered His kingdom, and He told him essentially, TODAY you'll be with me in paradise. TODAY is the day of your salvation, but it's always another day if the carnal mind has it's way.
Not really, TODAY he was with Jesus in paradise, but it was not until 3 days later did the thief raise from the dead. The resurrection had not yet come for him to be raised from the dead. Heaven, paradise, etc. Is not found in the resurrection of the dead.
If the carnal mind has it's way, it makes you think that the thief will be physically coming out if his grave along with the prophets and appeared in to many people in the future or in the past.
As I said, for the rest I agree in essense, but they do not actually have anything to do with the resurrection of the dead.
Quote from: Cardinal
Hmmm...... Wonder why did Paul say then that the "goal" was NOT to put off this tabernacle/MORTAL body, but rather that this mortality might be swallowed up of immortality? That's resurrection while STILL IN THE BODY. There are 2 types of resurrections.
Saying this body HAS to die as the only means to resurrect, is the same as saying we have to die to go to heaven, yet Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and plainly told him he was standing right in front of him, but He was in heaven. Wonder how He did that, since His physical body hadn't died yet?
Cardinal, I agree. :bigGrin:
CHB
:cloud9: "It is very simple. It is not the RESURRECTION OF THE BODY, it is the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. The body is not being resurrected, but dead are. What kind of body are the dead being raised in? An immortal one. The mortal (the dead) putting immortality."
Sorry, can't agree with that. First of all, mortal does not mean dead. It means living but not immortal, CAPABLE of dying. He makes it clear he's talking about his mortal body being shed in the first part of the sentence, then states that he would not be unclothed as in Christ spirit having no tabernacle=death of the tabernacle), but rather clothed upon, mortality (his body) being clothed upon by immortality (Christ within coming without). The whole purpose of the inward anointing is for it to come OUT and clothe us. The pattern of the ark of the covenant did not do away with the craptim wood and replace it, it covered it with gold, within and without.
On the mount of transfiguration, it was shown plainly He had his garment already, yet He was still in a mortal body. Add to that, the Father witnessed it and said, THIS (read pattern here) is my Son........
And He said no man takes my life, I lay it down willingly. The only way He had power to both lay it down and pick it up again, is because He already had overcome death while still in the body. The cross, the resurrection of His body, and the visible ascension were all outward manifestations or patterns for us to look at, as in the natural bearing witness to what was done in the Spirit already, in Him and thru the Spirit.
Just as all Israel did was said to be for our example, to us the heirs of salvation. He too, was born under the old covenant, and until the Spirit of God accomplished IN HIM all things, He could not bring in the new covenant, because the old TEMPLE was yet standing, and I'm not talking about the literal Jewish temple here. Once accomplished, the new covenant and it's tenets were manifested openly to the world thru the NEW ark of the covenant, and He had not laid down his natural body literally. Thus, John, speaking in the Spirit, said BEFORE THE VISIBLE CROSS, "Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." Also, if there had been any death in Him, He would not have been able to raise again. We tend to think of death only as an event, as in the cessation of physical life, but death is a SPIRIT.
The fact that He was able to do all that He did before He went to the literal visible cross, proved as He stated repeatedly, that the kingdom of God was nigh them, lo the kingdom of God is within you, which means the new covenant was already in effect IN Him, ie. He was already shown to be approved of God by signs and wonders. Study to show thyself approved........are any here approved of God? Then signs and wonders are following you, and the Spirit is bearing witness that there has been a death (to self) and Christ is risen in you. Yet you still have your physical body. Now how did that happen? ;) That doesn't mean the work is finished. Salvation is a 3 part process, not a one time event as the tabernacle pattern testifies to. Blessings to all......
Quote from: Cardinal on August 29, 2007, 11:26:55 PM
:cloud9: Hmmm...... Wonder why did Paul say then that the "goal" was NOT to put off this tabernacle/MORTAL body, but rather that this mortality might be swallowed up of immortality? That's resurrection while STILL IN THE BODY. There are 2 types of resurrections.
Saying this body HAS to die as the only means to resurrect, is the same as saying we have to die to go to heaven, yet Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and plainly told him he was standing right in front of him, but He was in heaven. Wonder how He did that, since His physical body hadn't died yet?
Heaven is not a place, it's a state of being in fellowship with the Father, walking with Him in the cool (means His breath) of the day as Adam did. Thus, the scripture, man shall not live by bread (letter) alone but by every word (Spirit-breathed revelation) that comes from the MOUTH of God. Which is why the HIGH priest went into the presence of God on the day of atonement, BAREFOOT, ie. his feet were ON EARTH, but he was symbolically as well as literally, IN HEAVEN in the presence of the Father. Thank God for Paul, who said he was pressing in for the HIGH calling in Christ Jesus, even though he found out he was a man born out of season.
Or like the one thief on the cross who told Him to remember him when He entered His kingdom, and He told him essentially, TODAY you'll be with me in paradise. TODAY is the day of your salvation, but it's always another day if the carnal mind has it's way.
We have a better covenant than the one the OT people had, and to be better it has to eliminate death while still in the body. Dying in the flesh body, does not overcome death, nor does it make you perfect, which is why it says THEY (that have passed on) cannot be made perfect without US. You're either going to be in the "they" camp, or the "us" camp, and by the grace of God I pray that all present here are destined to be in the "us" camp, this day. There is nothing in the death of the body to make you perfect. What it does do, is steal from Him a vessel to dwell in, to bring perfection. But praise God, if the thief be found, it must make restitution SEVEN TIMES over.
To be carnally minded IS death; the carnal mind is like a spider. It wraps us up in soulish ties like bands, keeping us from moving with the Spirit. And then when the Spirit will tarry with man no longer (because man won't seek His FACE/nature to free himself of the entanglements), the spider comes and sucks the very life out of it's victim. I refuse to make my covenant with death; the carnal mind is emnity towards God, which means it's His enemy, and if His enemy, then it's my enemy, also.
I saw firsthand the battle that ensues when death comes a calling when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer and was hemorrhaging blood in buckets. My mind, my enemy, was speaking to me daily, trying to get me to look at the condition of my body and AGREE with it, and mind's of the doctor's, lab techs, ect., over the word/breath of life I had already received from the Father, which was, "Because of your obedience, you're healed." I refused to make a covenant with death, and rebuked the thieves daily, literally speaking out loud and calling my mind and my body a liar.
When He said let every man be a liar, He also meant, EVERY PART OF MAN, is a liar. If it didn't come directly to you from the Spirit of God, it's a lie, plain and simple, I don't care what it is. And this why so many doctrines of men are falling in this hour, as the Son rises up with healing in His wings, in a people, that are destined to be called by His name/nature, and all the things of darkness we've held onto as truth, are fleeing as shadows in the noonday sun. Blessings to all you overcomers out there........
Sigh.......... :boyheart:
Quote from: Cardinal on August 30, 2007, 01:43:33 AM
:cloud9: "It is very simple. It is not the RESURRECTION OF THE BODY, it is the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. The body is not being resurrected, but dead are. What kind of body are the dead being raised in? An immortal one. The mortal (the dead) putting immortality."
Sorry, can't agree with that. First of all, mortal does not mean dead. It means living but not immortal, CAPABLE of dying. He makes it clear he's talking about his mortal body being shed in the first part of the sentence, then states that he would not be unclothed as in Christ spirit having no tabernacle=death of the tabernacle), but rather clothed upon, mortality (his body) being clothed upon by immortality (Christ within coming without). The whole purpose of the inward anointing is for it to come OUT and clothe us. The pattern of the ark of the covenant did not do away with the craptim wood and replace it, it covered it with gold, within and without.
On the mount of transfiguration, it was shown plainly He had his garment already, yet He was still in a mortal body. Add to that, the Father witnessed it and said, THIS (read pattern here) is my Son........
And He said no man takes my life, I lay it down willingly. The only way He had power to both lay it down and pick it up again, is because He already had overcome death while still in the body. The cross, the resurrection of His body, and the visible ascension were all outward manifestations or patterns for us to look at, as in the natural bearing witness to what was done in the Spirit already, in Him and thru the Spirit.
Just as all Israel did was said to be for our example, to us the heirs of salvation. He too, was born under the old covenant, and until the Spirit of God accomplished IN HIM all things, He could not bring in the new covenant, because the old TEMPLE was yet standing, and I'm not talking about the literal Jewish temple here. Once accomplished, the new covenant and it's tenets were manifested openly to the world thru the NEW ark of the covenant, and He had not laid down his natural body literally. Thus, John, speaking in the Spirit, said BEFORE THE VISIBLE CROSS, "Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." Also, if there had been any death in Him, He would not have been able to raise again. We tend to think of death only as an event, as in the cessation of physical life, but death is a SPIRIT.
The fact that He was able to do all that He did before He went to the literal visible cross, proved as He stated repeatedly, that the kingdom of God was nigh them, lo the kingdom of God is within you, which means the new covenant was already in effect IN Him, ie. He was already shown to be approved of God by signs and wonders. Study to show thyself approved........are any here approved of God? Then signs and wonders are following you, and the Spirit is bearing witness that there has been a death (to self) and Christ is risen in you. Yet you still have your physical body. Now how did that happen? ;) That doesn't mean the work is finished. Salvation is a 3 part process, not a one time event as the tabernacle pattern testifies to. Blessings to all......
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What age shall you be when you are resurrected, the ten year old you once were or the old man which has its dreams and then losing his strength and flies away?
Shall we be the man or the women that we are? Jesus said in the resurrection there is neither male nor female, that we neither marry or are given in marriage, that there is neither Jew nor Greek, , that we are made complete and one in him, no longer divided into two flesh that makes up one,
we shall be as the angels of heaven.
Remember in the beginning Adam/ Eve were one flesh, male AND female created he them?? now we are in natural bodies divided, has the mystery of the one flesh been revealed? what is the Veil? some say it is the law because whenever Moses is preached the Veil is upon their hearts, others say it is the letter, and what is the letter but the flesh? What is serving in the oldness of the letter mean? It appears serving in the oldness of the letter is serving the ministry of death, we are exhorted to serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter because the letter kills but the spirit is life.
And should we put on new cloths over the old that are filthy and roting away?
We are sown in a natural body and raised in a spiritual body, we are not told that the old is raised with the new, new wine even calls for new bottles not washing and reusing old bottles.
What happens to a seed when it is planted?
when the plant is raised the seed that the plant came forth from died, it can't be pulled back out of the ground and planted again, however the plant that is raised from seed shall bring forth several seeds of its kind which in turn shall when planted give of their life to bring forth many new plants
again of their kind.
Peace,
Fire Walker
I believe that we are in our bodily resurrection now (firstborn from the dead tomb walkers), and that after we physically die G-d takes our spirit home (Ecc. 12:7), just like G-d always provided.
We are in our ARKS, just as Messiah was in His ARK.
We will go in spirit, just like he did.
Spirit of Messiah returns in clouds of witnesses.
Heb. 11:40;
God had foreseen something better for us, so that without us they should not be made perfect apart from us
Heb. 12:23;
No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect
In other words this is not talking about after we physically die, Believers are/were supposed to have a taste of this (Kingdom) age NOW, just like the Tanach peoples who are now in their perfect spirit state. Thats what firstborn from the dead means (alive in spirit abscent from flesh blood guilt).
Certain doctrines teach that this did not occur until after Yeshua came. This is not correct.
Yeshua's mission was to bring a KEY to a taste of heaven to earth. Not get people to heaven when they physically die.
Fristborn from the dead is not talking about physical death or getting to heaven.
Men sin, and the resulting guilt can make us sin more, and be further estranged from G-d.
We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD, except those who SEE (those generated from above like Abraham, David, Moses, etc.), and all those who believe in Yeshuas teachings can have no fear about where they go when they physically die.
:cloud9: Yes, well it does say, to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord, doesn't it? ;) And so all want to die bodily to be present with the Lord.......
Ok, Wilmont, please tell me from your perspective about being born from above. I have experienced it (no, I'm not talking born again - this was a separate experience - He told me He had only honored my faith where I was at), but I lack the foundational principles to fully comprehend what happened to me. Blessings to you.....
What's interesting is we use the term "Body", and it has many meanings.......physical body, Body of Christ or body of believers.
I find it very interesting that it appears that Christ took his body in the resurrection. For me this is extremely significant because it symbolizes that where he goes......we must follow, and He (The Head) takes us (the body) with Him.......from Hell to heaven.....from pit to palace. :bigGrin:
Quote from: fire walker on August 30, 2007, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on August 30, 2007, 01:43:33 AM
:cloud9: "It is very simple. It is not the RESURRECTION OF THE BODY, it is the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. The body is not being resurrected, but dead are. What kind of body are the dead being raised in? An immortal one. The mortal (the dead) putting immortality."
Sorry, can't agree with that. First of all, mortal does not mean dead. It means living but not immortal, CAPABLE of dying. He makes it clear he's talking about his mortal body being shed in the first part of the sentence, then states that he would not be unclothed as in Christ spirit having no tabernacle=death of the tabernacle), but rather clothed upon, mortality (his body) being clothed upon by immortality (Christ within coming without). The whole purpose of the inward anointing is for it to come OUT and clothe us. The pattern of the ark of the covenant did not do away with the craptim wood and replace it, it covered it with gold, within and without.
On the mount of transfiguration, it was shown plainly He had his garment already, yet He was still in a mortal body. Add to that, the Father witnessed it and said, THIS (read pattern here) is my Son........
And He said no man takes my life, I lay it down willingly. The only way He had power to both lay it down and pick it up again, is because He already had overcome death while still in the body. The cross, the resurrection of His body, and the visible ascension were all outward manifestations or patterns for us to look at, as in the natural bearing witness to what was done in the Spirit already, in Him and thru the Spirit.
Just as all Israel did was said to be for our example, to us the heirs of salvation. He too, was born under the old covenant, and until the Spirit of God accomplished IN HIM all things, He could not bring in the new covenant, because the old TEMPLE was yet standing, and I'm not talking about the literal Jewish temple here. Once accomplished, the new covenant and it's tenets were manifested openly to the world thru the NEW ark of the covenant, and He had not laid down his natural body literally. Thus, John, speaking in the Spirit, said BEFORE THE VISIBLE CROSS, "Behold the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." Also, if there had been any death in Him, He would not have been able to raise again. We tend to think of death only as an event, as in the cessation of physical life, but death is a SPIRIT.
The fact that He was able to do all that He did before He went to the literal visible cross, proved as He stated repeatedly, that the kingdom of God was nigh them, lo the kingdom of God is within you, which means the new covenant was already in effect IN Him, ie. He was already shown to be approved of God by signs and wonders. Study to show thyself approved........are any here approved of God? Then signs and wonders are following you, and the Spirit is bearing witness that there has been a death (to self) and Christ is risen in you. Yet you still have your physical body. Now how did that happen? ;) That doesn't mean the work is finished. Salvation is a 3 part process, not a one time event as the tabernacle pattern testifies to. Blessings to all......
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What age shall you be when you are resurrected, the ten year old you once were or the old man which has its dreams and then losing his strength and flies away?
Shall we be the man or the women that we are? Jesus said in the resurrection there is neither male nor female, that we neither marry or are given in marriage, that there is neither Jew nor Greek, , that we are made complete and one in him, no longer divided into two flesh that makes up one,
we shall be as the angels of heaven.
Remember in the beginning Adam/ Eve were one flesh, male AND female created he them?? now we are in natural bodies divided, has the mystery of the one flesh been revealed? what is the Veil? some say it is the law because whenever Moses is preached the Veil is upon their hearts, others say it is the letter, and what is the letter but the flesh? What is serving in the oldness of the letter mean? It appears serving in the oldness of the letter is serving the ministry of death, we are exhorted to serve in newness of spirit and not the oldness of the letter because the letter kills but the spirit is life.
And should we put on new cloths over the old that are filthy and roting away?
We are sown in a natural body and raised in a spiritual body, we are not told that the old is raised with the new, new wine even calls for new bottles not washing and reusing old bottles.
What happens to a seed when it is planted?
when the plant is raised the seed that the plant came forth from died, it can't be pulled back out of the ground and planted again, however the plant that is raised from seed shall bring forth several seeds of its kind which in turn shall when planted give of their life to bring forth many new plants
again of their kind.
Peace,
Fire Walker
Amen Fire Walker.
:cloud9: Well.....let me ask you......how old was Jesus when He got it? Did his mortal body change in age? Was he still male? Where is his woman? I've already established it all happened in Him thru the Spirit before the literal cross.
Male and female made He THEM. If your soul/woman is one with your Spirit/man, bringing the soul back into union with the Spirit is the first resurrection. Think about it. At death the soul and spirit are divided. We died in Adam. We are ALIVE (read resurrected here) IN CHRIST. But if you die to self while still in the body, you are brought into union with the Spirit, FULL UNION.
That is why man is in bondage to the FEAR of death all of his days. It's not the fear of dying that keeps him in bondage, it's the fear of dying to SELF, and losing that separate but false identity we got in the fall/division. That's why perfect-ed love casts out all fear, instead of what we would take to be the opposite of love, which is hate. No greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friend. Blessings to you.....
There are hints in the NT as to a body resurrection, but to me it is not speaking on after physical death. Romans 6 is perhaps the greatest; we are to be like or live like we are dead to sin (and thus dead to laws pertaining to this sin) and resurrected in Yeshua, since only the physcially dead are really freed from the affects of sin.
TO BE PERFECT because the Father is. Of course this is not really totaly possible because of our animal soul constraints (which is why we should die to this daily).
Do not let sin reign in your mortal body....
We are to walk the world glorifying God, emulating Messiah to the world, by SHINNING OUR PERFECT SPIRIT STATE WITHIN.
Quote from: Cardinal on August 30, 2007, 02:54:42 PM
:cloud9: Yes, well it does say, to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord, doesn't it? ;) And so all want to die bodily to be present with the Lord.......
Ok, Wilmont, please tell me from your perspective about being born from above. I have experienced it (no, I'm not talking born again - this was a separate experience - He told me He had only honored my faith where I was at), but I lack the foundational principles to fully comprehend what happened to me. Blessings to you.....
I am not completely sure what you are refering?
It is about assurance of the Kingdom (knowing God, and assured of Him in my life, where am I going after I physically die?).
OUR GUILT gets in the way of this assurance (becomes our focus).
Early believers (and some still do but they have to hide it) had special purpose and gifting (this is the metaphorical body Paul speaks on...eye, nose, etc.), as evidence of the assurance of the Kingdom.
Not to get into returning spirits, because quite often Christians are very opposed to this understanding as they think it is Hinduism and are often time quite prejudiced in their thinking (fundamentalism). But the Holy Word does speak of this.
:cloud9: Well, in the first statement, I was referring to people who take that scripture and think it means they need to die physically to go to heaven to be with the Lord........funny isn't it.....in the natural world the inheritance comes to the living not the dead :mshock:
And yes the word does speak of returning spirits, the spirit of Elijah comes to mind, but I see that as the Spirit of God anointing that was ON Elijah, not Elijah's spirit itself. As for THAT Spirit, it has already come......Blessings to you......
I know this is a little off track from the discussion that is going on, but I thought it pertained well to the subject of the thread.
The other day I was talking to my boss (who lost his son), and for some strange reason he brought up the subject of what it would be like to live forever, and we both agreed -- Who would want to live forever......in this life anyway.
We have deeply ingrained in our instinctual being the fight for survival (for a good reason) and the idea that death is an evil thing, and I believe that it is the root of all our fears. If we only believed that death is part of the plan for a very very good reason.
I love these lyrics below and thought they pertained well to the thread.
"If Everyone Cared"
From underneath the trees, we watch the sky
Confusing stars for satellites
I never dreamed that you'd be mine
But here we are, we're here tonight
Singing Amen, I, I'm alive
Singing Amen, I, I'm alive
[Chorus:]
If everyone cared and nobody cried
If everyone loved and nobody lied
If everyone shared and swallowed their pride
Then we'd see the day when nobody died
And I'm singing
Amen I, Amen I, I'm alive
Amen I, Amen I, Amen I, I'm alive
And in the air the fireflies
Our only light in paradise
We'll show the world they were wrong
And teach them all to sing along
Singing Amen, I, I'm alive
Singing Amen, I, I'm alive
(I'm alive)
[Chorus x2]
And as we lie beneath the stars
We realize how small we are
If they could love like you and me
Imagine what the world could be
If everyone cared and nobody cried
If everyone loved and nobody lied
If everyone shared and swallowed their pride
Then we'd see the day when nobody died
When nobody died...
[Chorus]
We'd see the day, we'd see the day
When nobody died
We'd see the day, we'd see the day
When nobody died
We'd see the day when nobody died
:cloud9: Thank you SG.......nice song. I could go on for pages on what He has shown me regarding not dying, and not dying to receive our inheritance (which is backwards), but I feel to rest for now.....Blessings to you.....
Quote from: StainedGlass on August 31, 2007, 07:40:46 PM
I love these lyrics below and thought they pertained well to the thread.
"If Everyone Cared"
I love that song! :offtopic: :mblush:
I love the song too hopeful! :HeartThrob:
Hey Cardinal...thanks for the reply, I can see what you're saying. :bigGrin: You know...Also wanted to post on what Wilmont mentioned about Hinduism.
Here are some things I've read about the Bhagavad gita...
The Hindu theory of creation suggests that creation begins when the individual soul becomes separated from the undifferentiated one. It continues as the evolution of life and consciousness as matter progresses. During this process some souls journey back to God through transformation of matter or prakriti in which they are hidden. The remaining souls continue their existence and rejoin Him in the end, not through transformation but through a process of great destruction. Thus the great cycle of creation, stretching over millions of years comes to its logical end.
Any thoughts on this in relation to the mainstream Christian beliefs on death?
I believe in the possibility that there is a form of reincarnation, by which the spirit of a man can come back, to possibly retify damage done in the past (recycled back to the lake of fire...evil age we are now in). :bigGrin:
Quote from: wilmont on August 31, 2007, 09:29:40 PM
I believe in the possibility that there is a form of reincarnation, by which the spirit of a man can come back, to possibly retify damage done in the past (recycled back to the lake of fire...evil age we are now in). :bigGrin:
Hey Wilmont....I've had similar thoughts, but I don't know if it's set in stone for me yet......I mean I don't know if I've formed it into a solid belief yet, but it certainly makes a lot of sense in my opinion.
It answers a lot of questions about what it means to be changed and yet still asleep. And......I don't think it takes away from the saving power of Christ in any way.
:cloud9: You know, I know there's something there in Truth that has been seen thru the darkened glass (soul) and corrupted, but I have not been given revelation on it yet.What I have seen or experienced in that regard, I don't understand yet, and refuse to speculate on what it might have meant until He gives me understanding. I know He's not limited by anything, so He can do what He wants. Blessings......
Quote from: Cardinal on August 31, 2007, 02:33:42 AM
:cloud9: Well.....let me ask you......how old was Jesus when He got it? Did his mortal body change in age? Was he still male? Where is his woman? I've already established it all happened in Him thru the Spirit before the literal cross.
Male and female made He THEM. If your soul/woman is one with your Spirit/man, bringing the soul back into union with the Spirit is the first resurrection. Think about it. At death the soul and spirit are divided. We died in Adam. We are ALIVE (read resurrected here) IN CHRIST. But if you die to self while still in the body, you are brought into union with the Spirit, FULL UNION.
That is why man is in bondage to the FEAR of death all of his days. It's not the fear of dying that keeps him in bondage, it's the fear of dying to SELF, and losing that separate but false identity we got in the fall/division. That's why perfect-ed love casts out all fear, instead of what we would take to be the opposite of love, which is hate. No greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friend. Blessings to you.....
Cardinal.....I see this too. I like the way you explain it.
I second SG..
way to go Cardinal... :thumbsup:
Taffy
QuoteThat is why man is in bondage to the FEAR of death all of his days. It's not the fear of dying that keeps him in bondage, it's the fear of dying to SELF, and losing that separate but false identity we got in the fall/division. That's why perfect-ed love casts out all fear, instead of what we would take to be the opposite of love, which is hate. No greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friend. Blessings to you.....
Man alive Card..........that blessed me.........(or should I say Man dying......LOL)!
And of course, and yes, the opposite of love is fear.........and it always undermines love......it always casts aspersions on the one we love when we see him through our darkened soul eyes.......
Love you,
Joian
:thumbsup: LOL, hey liked that, man dying, LOL....love you too.......don't be a stranger.....where's our mutual friend? Haven't seen his signature in a while......
I do not take the letter of the resurrection as fundamentally literal as many do. The word tells us, we are sown in a natural body, we are raised a spiritual body, not we are sowen in a natural body and raised a natual body, to teach it so literally to the letter that it is that which is Sowen that is raised then what hope are we giving those and what should we say then to physicaly matured conjoined twins, to those born so deformed that it is beyond description, to those who have the development and come to maturity of both male and female organs equally able to bear a child and also father a child in one body, impeded?
If it be as literally to the letter as what many say, what is this preaching literalism to the letter doing to those I just mentioned but to fill them with guilt and fear thus quenching their hope ? a very un-loving thing is preaching the letter. Just as the blind, who has sined that they are born such? niether these people nor their parents have sinned for them to be born so in their natural bodies.
What should we say about the baby that is killed or dies, that they shall be babies forever? Raised in a baby body and to remain so for all eternity?
are those that are killed not raised in a spiritual body, how about those who are destroyed by fires, floods? We do not seek death we seek life
Those who are turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that the soul my be saved in the day of salvation? even the road to destruction leads to life my friends all because of what Jesus Christ has done and not anything we of ourselves may or may not do, no man is without LOVE, say what we say yea or nay no man is without love to say that some have no love is to say God only loves some, we who now believe know better than that.
Peace,
Fire walker
Everyone of you on this tread, ............you need to go read Dr. Stephen Jones article that Seeker SA
posted yesterday called 'The BARLEY Overcomers!" In it, he touches on "putting on the new
incorruptible body" rather than "going to heaven" to get it.
That does not negate the fact or truth that we bear in "this" mortal body ......the marks of the CROSS.
Just how he was understanding all that, I am not quite sure. But that was a really good article and I
noticed that no one went over there to discuss it but ME!! Oh, lonesome me.........
I sure would like to hear some of you after you have taken the time to read thru all that...........
Each one of you let another one on here know about the article after you have read it, ok?
Thanks..........
Hey Redlettervoice......can you put the link to the article on this thread?
Thanks for the post! :icon_flower:
Thought you all might enjoy this (it pertains to the thread).......anyway, it made me cry. :HeartThrob:
This church video below displays the "seemingly harmless PULL" that exists in the world. So many distractions and worldy attractions try to steal our time with Him, but nothing truly satisfies like being with our Lord and Saviour. Jesus is ALWAYS lovingly waiting to receive each of us back, regardless of what we've done, where we've been, who we've hurt. I thought this was AWESOME and everyone should watch it, not just once but whenever we feel Satan pulling us away.
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee73e63418003b47d7d5
Stained Glass and others..........if you read my post below you will see that I recommended the article
by Stephen Jones on the Revelation section ........called "The Barley Overcomers" ........
You asked for the link. I don't blame you, getting lost in here. I am ashamed to tell you but MY
blame computer shows page 3 sometimes and it will be the first page.......never mind, I'm learning how
to read backwards......ha
Here's the LINK:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=546.0
Quote from: StainedGlass on September 07, 2007, 04:19:27 PM
Thought you all might enjoy this (it pertains to the thread).......anyway, it made me cry. :HeartThrob:
This church video below displays the "seemingly harmless PULL" that exists in the world. So many distractions and worldy attractions try to steal our time with Him, but nothing truly satisfies like being with our Lord and Saviour. Jesus is ALWAYS lovingly waiting to receive each of us back, regardless of what we've done, where we've been, who we've hurt. I thought this was AWESOME and everyone should watch it, not just once but whenever we feel Satan pulling us away.
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee73e63418003b47d7d5
SG, I thank you for posting that link. I had been going through such a pressure filled place when I watched that. I wept and had such an overdue washing by His tender grace. It was also a great one to send to my kids which I did.
Jack
Quote from: Hennessey on September 10, 2007, 12:13:34 AM
Quote from: StainedGlass on September 07, 2007, 04:19:27 PM
Thought you all might enjoy this (it pertains to the thread).......anyway, it made me cry. :HeartThrob:
This church video below displays the "seemingly harmless PULL" that exists in the world. So many distractions and worldy attractions try to steal our time with Him, but nothing truly satisfies like being with our Lord and Saviour. Jesus is ALWAYS lovingly waiting to receive each of us back, regardless of what we've done, where we've been, who we've hurt. I thought this was AWESOME and everyone should watch it, not just once but whenever we feel Satan pulling us away.
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee73e63418003b47d7d5
SG, I thank you for posting that link. I had been going through such a pressure filled place when I watched that. I wept and had such an overdue washing by His tender grace. It was also a great one to send to my kids which I did.
Jack
Hey Jack.....it's beautiful isn't it? His love for us is beautiful. The skit just reminded me how much He really does care and love us so completely. He is truly our everything. :HeartThrob:
I'm so glad you enjoyed it, and I pray your children can find a peace that they can hold on to after seeing that skit.
Much love and blessings your way my friend. :icon_flower:
Atoms of all kind get old and change forms when they die. All matter changes form. The human body changes form when it dies. The soul is the process of what goes on to make thought possible, using your 5 senses in the conscious and the subconscious interrelation with the body is soul and flesh making human. This goes on to a higher level when the body stops working.
As far as Spiritual Death, not flesh death, this is why God had to anoint a Son in His order to produce a Messiah to cover ALL Sin. The vail shielded God from sin in the old order of the holy of holies. Now His Christ shields God from all sin and has done away with sin because Any one that was under that shield, (All Things) IS In Christ (Past tense) 2009 years ago. And anyone that follows the universal belief is ( I Believe ) Sin Free. Because WE don't follow the law i.e. all 640 laws of the Jews.
We get our new Life IN the Anointed. Those who follow some kind of law, don't know that they have life, this is His Gift and His way that All Mankind will, in some future time come to know Him...
Hartley Damboise II
I believe that because we are the body of Christ that we are to share in both his death as well as his resurrection. It was necessary for death to enter the world in order for God to demonstrate life. We could not know anything without experiencing its opposite (joy/sorrow), (life/death), (peace/war)....etc.... We had to as Adam's race taste of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in order to KNOW God, surely. That's what it boils down to in my mind. I do often think and believe that there is a lot of unnecessary evil and suffering because humanity is so ignorant of the glory of righteousness. We are like a bunch of blind wounded animals walking around in pain -
This sort of question always makes me think of Psalm Chapter 2:
Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One.
"Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters."
The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.
Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
"I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill."
I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on August 09, 2009, 11:28:37 AM
I believe that because we are the body of Christ that we are to share in both his death as well as his resurrection. It was necessary for death to enter the world in order for God to demonstrate life. We could not know anything without experiencing its opposite (joy/sorrow), (life/death), (peace/war)....etc.... We had to as Adam's race taste of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in order to KNOW God, surely. That's what it boils down to in my mind. I do often think and believe that there is a lot of unnecessary evil and suffering because humanity is so ignorant of the glory of righteousness. We are like a bunch of blind wounded animals walking around in pain -
This sort of question always makes me think of Psalm Chapter 2:
Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One.
"Let us break their chains," they say, "and throw off their fetters."
The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.
Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
"I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill."
I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father.
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.
You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Over on Wisefire this morning, I read this:Luke 9:53-56
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
>
You know, I sure see the "human heart" being spoken to by Jesus right here.
The first verse makes sense when you realize what was going to happen "in
Jerusalem." I guess I will never forget a girl teaching me a long time ago that
Jesus said "Behold, "WE" go!!"
And those last verses: Wow! Sure speaks! Don't it? The "call down fire realm"
that "really DESTROYs" mens lives......is NOT the "saving realm!" What Jesus
was about to do was the SAVING of men's lives.
Thank you Lord.
And as Paul, some have to "make up" that which is lacking........Maybe He was
talking to some right then.
Jesus put one message "down" that men thought was "the saving
knowledge of God" and brought forth the "truth" ...........one is "fire"
and one is LIGHT. Zech. says and at the evening, it shall be LIGHT!