Where do the non-believers go, when they die, in the UR paradigm?

[Dandelion]

Someone asked me yesterday, when I was explaining UR, where do the people go, in the UR paradigm, after they die. Those not ready for Heaven.

I wasn't sure what to tell them.                              :Chinscratch:

I would think after meeting God, God and they would have a 'talk' and know what now needed to be done, for the next step, and God would have them continue their journey. Some type of series of steps to
bring them closer to God.....but, that is as far as my understanding goes....if it is even correct. And, how does a time frame fit in? I think that is a huge piece, that we cannot truly comprehend now, being held to the time frame of earth. Not sure when and how the Lake of Fire actually comes into the picture, and so on.

As a child, I believed in 'purgatory'.  I know Luther took out some of the books that elluded to praying for the dead, and so on, because of the ruckess over purgatory, with the RC church, and so on. (Macabees is one).

So, can you all help me here? Perhaps someone could suggest a UR book to read, or a video to watch? I really need to start reading more about these topics in UR.

Thank you, all.

D.              :dontknow:     

Just was looking at Rodger's post....this looks like it will help me answer the question.....stay tuned........


SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« on: July 13, 2011, 04:51:51 PM »
Quote
#1 - A SNIPPET FROM REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my hero and mentor)
All of his writings can be Googled up by typing in his name.

"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."

   D. 

Offline joeteekay
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Tartarus
« on: Today at 05:26:46 PM »
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The word Tartarus is found only once in the entire bible.  It is found in second Peter chapter two and verse four.  It has been translated by the word hell in the King James Version of the bible.  It should not be translated by the word hell although some versions render it that way.  It has nothing to do with hell, just as the Greek words Hades and, Gehenna have nothing to do with the orthodox Christian teaching about hell.

2 Pet 2:4  KJV  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartarus) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:4  CLV  For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"

It is unfortunate that this word, Tartarus, is translated "hell" in many versions.

The gloomy caverns of Tartarus (AV- chains of darkness) are not the same as Hades (the unseen), as Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire. Tartarus refers to  the temporary dungeons of sinning spirits. Jude says:

Jud 1:6  (KJV)  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting (perpetual)  chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.,

Jud 1:6  (CLV)  Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."
Jud 1:6  (Diaglott)  messengers and those not having kept the of themselves principality, but having left the own habitation, for a judgment of a great day, with chains perpetual under thick darkness have been kept;

Notice that these passages speak of messengers, or angels, and not men; and that they do not refer to a final state, but to a place where they are kept in imperceptible (invisible) bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day.  There is not the faintest indication of any torment in Tartarus, but simply a temporary dungeon where sinning messengers are kept for chastening judgment at the Great White Throne. 

In Matthew 8 there is the account of the evil spirits (devils) who posessed two men from the country of the Gergesenes which Jesus exorcized.

Mat 8:29  And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

These sinning spirits know there is coming a time when they will be judged at the White Throne and their judgement will be a time of torment.  Not torture but torment.  This was discussed under the topic of "Fire".

There is not the faintest suggestion in text or context of the Scriptures that Tartarus carries the horrible conception which hell brings to the minds of people in general, and there is, not the slightest justification for so translating it as "hell". It is simply forcing ideas into God's word which He never intended to be there.

And, then, I found this, too, today.

I don't actually think of us as being in a state of 'limbo' when we enter eternity.....a brilliant Pastor I know had discussed that, and it made sense to me. But, I am no expert on eternity.   :dontknow:

D.

[sheila]

..it is my conviction that when God comes in judgement..the people learn righteousness.   when our last breath is drawn and Jesus

  draws the redeemed spirit up..prodigals[known as sinner men] clothed with truth/forgiveness=nakedness covered..fed a banquet of rich

food/Lord's wedding supper=  truth ...rich with marrow of which shroud[of deception removed from eyes/understanding] and the

spirits of just men become perfect[ED-ucated] in understanding and judgements of God.....I myself will finish your training......

  ALL YOUR SONS SHALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.     

    I beleive nothing can seperate any man from the love of God that was shown in Jesus Christ...no spirit of unbeleif deception of satan

   or  any other thing shall be successful..for love never fails and is as strong as death....God's love[spirit] shall destroy death......

    and He shall plague death...and death has no sting[the sting of sin is death..sin is the missing of the mark of LOVE......

   man misses the mark of perfect love often..d/t flesh and blood can not please God..But God does not 'miss the mark" and

   His Love never fails to deliver. :2c:

[Lazarus Short]

Someone asked me yesterday, when I was explaining UR, where do the people go, in the UR paradigm, after they die. Those not ready for Heaven.

I wasn't sure what to tell them.                              :Chinscratch:

Easy - after they die, they're dead, in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.  In the usual thinking, you die, and immediately are in heaven or hell...and then later you get resurrected.  Come again?  It doesn't make sense.  Once again, UR makes sense, and the common conception is reduced to absurdity.

[Cristina100]

Hades The realm of the dead.

[Dandelion]

I am sorry, I should explain.

I know the dead are in their graves, waiting. But, that is this side of the grave, where time rules.

I don't believe God is waiting around for us, saying something like, "Only 1,061 more years to go, and we'll get them up."

I feel certain something is going on, in eternity, with each and everyone of us. I believe, that in eternity, all of existence is occurring , simultaneously.

I think to God, time is more like pages of a book, which he can locate and connect with, whenever He chooses.

So, I guess what I am asking is.....where are we in God's time, when we die? What do we do, after meeting with the Almighty, or do we all meet with Him right away? I would think we do.

Sorry......I am not easy with these issues. I think I think too much...... :Chinscratch:

D.                       

[Ross]

Imagine being raised to severe changes to the environment.
Those being raised in the second part of the resurrection will see true spiritual beings, those of the first resurrection, with a different state of being- literally like Christ in the spiritual form.
New government. Different environment. Changes to the legal system. Love exuding. Healing happening without medication.
Positivity wiping out negativity. God being visual to those in the spirit. Christ having taught the ecclesia how to minister correctly.
Why would anyone want to go back?
The non-believers in this age, I.M.O are that way because they have not be called yet. Each in his own time highlights the significance of being corrected by God, not man's efforts.
So as Lazarus pointed out, those non-believers will be asleep until raised to new beginnings way beyond our current ability to fathom.
The last shall be first seems to define the difference between those before the resurrection of Christ and those after. Hebrews 11,12 seems to highlight that.
All emphasizing the precision of God. " Before the world began I knew you" is one incredible statement.

[Dandelion]

In the usual Christian paradigm, we die, we are judged, and we go to Heaven or Hell. This is true for most Christian churches. Then, there will be a final judgement, at the end of time, most believe, when all will be made new. At least, that is what most people I know who are Christian, believe.

The woman I spoke to wanted to know where UR believers go, when they die, before the final judgement.

Only in Catholic traditions, or perhaps Orthodox, (sorry, I don't remember) is there a purgatory-type of state, where those who are not quite ready for Heaven, but not going to Hell, wait, after they die, to somehow resolve whatever lingering need for repentance they still have.

So, that is why I began this subject. What do we tell people, who are used to the paradigm.......You are either saved by your faith, and go to Heaven, or condemned to Hell, because you turned away from God's will, or never accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior. Where do UR believers go....in the eternal realm....right after they die? That is what the secretary, of a very well-known and accepted  Christian Church, (Christian City Church, begun in Australia) asked me, when I was telling her about UR. And, I realized, that would be a very common question, that I would probably encounter.

Many of you might realize, that because Luther had a great schism with the RC Catholic Church, regarding such issues as indulgences to get yourself or loved ones into heaven, from purgatory, the issue of any purgatory-like state, after death, is very taboo, amongst most Christians.

Thank you for all of your comments.

Still not sure what to say, however.

Anyway, I will need to chew, swallow, and digest, probably from many sources, until I am comfortable in these 'new shoes' of what to say to this. But, that is just me. Please don't take it personal.    :Chinscratch:

D.

[lastpost]

Personally, I believe that the more traditional and limiting concept of life after death involving a collective final resurrection is just that – a man-made concept. In fact, I do not think that life after death is based on 'belief' anyway but rather what that belief has done to the state and condition of the soul – how purified it is, in what spiritual condition it is able to live once the physical body is shed. The Master Christ has placed the perfect example and teachings before the world in His birth, life, physical death and return from it – and He has prepared a suitable abiding place in His Father's many-roomed House, and even here the so-named judgements that bring about purification continue so that the child of God may continue to enter further and further into the illimitable purity of the One True God.

Many volumes could be written about such a subject but I believe it is far, far more important to point to the fact of actual living – life before death based on knowing Christ – as this is – to me – the most vitally important factor regardless of ones eschatological belief.

In my opinion, when the innermost Self – which is the kingdom of heaven within in which sits the Christ on His throne - reveals itself to the spiritual heart, all that is perceived is seen to have come from the same Source, the Source which is indescribable because it is not made of earthly words or earthly concepts or earthly ideas. The real self is found, the false personhood is gone, lost in the reality of the Source.

The Source is Pure Love, it is all-quietness – the deepest peace, yet it is all-power – the most vibrant Being, it is everything and everywhere and yet it is also nothing tangible, it is in you and in me, it is you and it is me. It has no beginning and no end because it is the beginning and the end, it was never born and it will never die, it is now known as being older than the material body.

It is what remains after the fire has burnt, after the storm without has blown over – it is exposed, revealed. It is innocence itself, so innocent that it is neutral to itself – self-less – yet all-knowing of itself. Anger cannot touch it or alter it, neither can any lesser human negative evil affect it, it is beyond all human conception. God is far beyond human comprehension, so unlike the concepts dreamt up by the mind still tethered to the ego of the personhood.   

The disciple of Pure Love sees that Pure Love is only Christ, whereas the disciple of earthly words which bring satisfaction to the mind of the body alone and so is missing the experience the deepest Source, dismissing and even ejecting that which is his or her very Cause.

The disciple of earthly words sees only his or her doctrine as absolute Truth and the experience of at-one-ment is absent, whereas the disciple of Pure Love sees the earthly doctrine as dogma and sees history repeated again and again.

Until then the mind of the personhood of the learned bookmen is bound – as it always has been – to the partial protection afforded by their version of doctrinal law which he or she calls unadulterated Truth, and upon which many will expound their realisations of the mind to which others of like mind are attracted – realisations which are really diluted expressions of manifested Truth which have gathered the debris and detritus associated with the mind whose owner lives in a material world. 

The personhood of the disciple of Pure Love has died and now only Christ reigns in him or her, whereas the personhood of the disciple of earthly words still finds himself or herself as conscious ruler and cannot fathom with the earthly mind the at-one-ment of Christ with his or her self.

Christ the eternal Source is here for everyone to experience in the heart of the spirit when they will know something of the meaning of God being all in all, but until then He is known only by the mind and the ego and the emotions of the personhood and the battles of words and concepts continue in the world of physical sense.

I believe it is but early days, babyhood, for the Christ Race. Yet in the coming millennia so the real Christ Consciousness shall abide in and through humanity which today often exhibits a divisive bigotry through its dogmas causing a separation from the God in each other, and in a future earthly time so Christ will truly be revealed amongst men on this earth.

So the answer for me is not to be concerned about man's doctrines but to continually learn of Christ and to continually live for Christ - it is that simple - and in so doing to lose the false self in Christ, and with the loss of the lesser self comes the loss of any fear for the future – because it has no relevance as Christ is here for such a one now.

That is my opinion.

[GodIsLove]

Well this probably isn't helpful but...

I understand the need for us as humans to *know* all of life's mysteries, hence all of the different world religions that think they are right, and all of the thousands of Christian denominations that think they are right, and the scientists that think they are right, and the politicians...you get where I am going.

We as UR believers are much more diverse in our beliefs and less dogmatic than the other Christian denominations and I think that is okay.

I do think something is happening after death, and while Catholicism became corrupt with buying time out of purgatory, I think the idea of a time of purgation (definition: the purification or cleansing of something) is true of life on earth and wherever we continue. In the presence of God of course.

All of the ideas of what happens are concepts that have biblical support (immediately heaven or hell, resurrection, purgatory).

I think if I were to talk to your friend I would say we don't know, none of us do, for sure, how it will look exactly and what will happen when and where. But we know and trust in God who is love that He is reconciling us all to Himself through Jesus the Christ.

[eaglesway]

"If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him" 2 Tim 2:12

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God." Roman 8:18,19

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. Hebrews 2:10

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:7

He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.... James 1:18



I think the idea that we were all saved just to "go to heaven" is nearly as destructive to the gospel as the idea of "eternal torment in hell". Understanding why God has done all these things and what He is creating seems to me to be "obviously fundamental" to understanding His wisdom, His truth.

Take the "whys" out of wise and what do you have?

All things will be gathered into one in Christ, for what? What when it is done? So we can sit aroun in a Christian Nirvana and suck our thumbs and stare at an image of God as we sing praise songs?

Forgive my sarcasm  :Peace2:

We speak a wisdom among the mature that the rulers of this world do not know- otherwise they would not have crucified Jesus. They disarmed themselves through the foolishness of their wisdom, being darkened in their understanding, blinded by their lust and greed and desire for authority.

Picture....

Little children drawing lines on the ground of the earth, the moon the sun and the stars, as opposed to a hologram of an ever expanding universe, as opposed to soaring in the Spirit through that ever expanding universe.

Draw it on the ground and say, "This is what it looks like, agree or get out!"

To a certain extent, to me, it is about starting and ending points. What are we missing as we stare at our drawing on the ground rather than looking to the sky and yearning to fly?

To what end has God done all these things? Certainly not so that we can define Him. He defined Himself in Jesus, the one who came in mysteries and parables.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"


"If you confess with your mouth Jesus is part of the Trinity and believe in your heart that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three; co-equal, co-eternal and one in essence, existing as one God in three persons- you can be in the church and go to heaven." Lamechiah 10:4

Or be excluded from Christ for believing otherwise. Or be burned at the stake for teaching otherwise. And be tormented forever in either case. :lol:

A rather disappointing gospel imo. I prefer to believe we will be priests and sons of God restoring souls, celebrating life and creating portals through an ever expanding universe \o/

[Dandelion]

"We speak a wisdom among the mature that the rulers of this world do not know- otherwise they would not have crucified Jesus. They disarmed themselves through the foolishness of their wisdom, being darkened in their understanding, blinded by their lust and greed and desire for authority."

Agreed, EW.

So, I guess I have my answer......many cannot understand what we truly
have to say......we will have to say what we have to say as clearly and carefully
as we can, and then let the Holy Spirit do what He does.  We cannot
translate all we believe into the stereotypes out there.....and we, and the people we speak to
will have to understand that.

Thanks, everyone!      :girlheart:

Got it.

D.

[Dandelion]

...13This will be your opportunity to serve as witnesses. 14So make up your mind not to worry beforehand how to defend yourselves. 15For I will give you speech and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict....Luke 21:13 - 15

Amen and amen.....didn't call this one to mind, when I was thinking of what to say.

Thanks, Holy Spirit.

D.                          :dsunny:

[Ross]

…13This will be your opportunity to serve as witnesses. 14So make up your mind not to worry beforehand how to defend yourselves. 15For I will give you speech and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.…Luke 21:13 - 15

Amen and amen.....didn't call this one to mind, when I was thinking of what to say.

Thanks, Holy Spirit.

D.                          :dsunny:

Key point.
God's timing and provision, not ours.
Many attempts at planning what to say are not really listening to where the individual is at. Christ spoke to their hearts because He could discern- even then He was not trying to convert the Jews, just go on record for His first appearance to set stage for the next one.

[GodIsLove]

Hannibal, I'm glad you are here, your ideas sure are interesting :)

So just to clarify (I hope mods don't get upset that your view isn't the norm) you seem to be describing reincarnation and multiple earths.

I do agree with you that very very few of us have attained the highest form of spiritual maturity here on earth and more learning and growing is what I envision on the other side of the grave for sure.

[jabcat]

I personally don't think reincarnation is the correct view, and describes something "non-Christian".  Pre-existing with God in a spirit form, as part of Him, and mankind being given this earthly experience of evil seems more plausible from a scriptural perspective.

[jabcat]

It is appointed unto man once to die...


http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/reincarnation/


http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved/msg171777/#msg171777

[darryl]

Someone asked me yesterday, when I was explaining UR, where do the people go, in the UR paradigm, after they die. Those not ready for Heaven.

I wasn't sure what to tell them.                              :Chinscratch:

I would think after meeting God, God and they would have a 'talk' and know what now needed to be done, for the next step, and God would have them continue their journey. Some type of series of steps to
bring them closer to God.....but, that is as far as my understanding goes....if it is even correct. And, how does a time frame fit in? I think that is a huge piece, that we cannot truly comprehend now, being held to the time frame of earth. Not sure when and how the Lake of Fire actually comes into the picture, and so on.

As a child, I believed in 'purgatory'.  I know Luther took out some of the books that elluded to praying for the dead, and so on, because of the ruckess over purgatory, with the RC church, and so on. (Macabees is one).

So, can you all help me here? Perhaps someone could suggest a UR book to read, or a video to watch? I really need to start reading more about these topics in UR.

Thank you, all.

D.              :dontknow:     

Just was looking at Rodger's post....this looks like it will help me answer the question.....stay tuned........


SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT
« on: July 13, 2011, 04:51:51 PM »
Quote
#1 - A SNIPPET FROM REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL - RAY PRINZING (my hero and mentor)
All of his writings can be Googled up by typing in his name.

"Aionian punishment means of the age, or age during. It is a period of time designated by God for the bringing to naught that which is wrong. God will mete out exactly the amount of time necessary for correction, but it will not be prolonged beyond that which is needed. All of God's punishments are corrective in nature, motivated by His love, and used to work into our good and His praise."

   D. 

Offline joeteekay
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Tartarus
« on: Today at 05:26:46 PM »
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The word Tartarus is found only once in the entire bible.  It is found in second Peter chapter two and verse four.  It has been translated by the word hell in the King James Version of the bible.  It should not be translated by the word hell although some versions render it that way.  It has nothing to do with hell, just as the Greek words Hades and, Gehenna have nothing to do with the orthodox Christian teaching about hell.

2 Pet 2:4  KJV  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (Tartarus) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Pet 2:4  CLV  For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;"

It is unfortunate that this word, Tartarus, is translated "hell" in many versions.

The gloomy caverns of Tartarus (AV- chains of darkness) are not the same as Hades (the unseen), as Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire. Tartarus refers to  the temporary dungeons of sinning spirits. Jude says:

Jud 1:6  (KJV)  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting (perpetual)  chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.,

Jud 1:6  (CLV)  Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."
Jud 1:6  (Diaglott)  messengers and those not having kept the of themselves principality, but having left the own habitation, for a judgment of a great day, with chains perpetual under thick darkness have been kept;

Notice that these passages speak of messengers, or angels, and not men; and that they do not refer to a final state, but to a place where they are kept in imperceptible (invisible) bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day.  There is not the faintest indication of any torment in Tartarus, but simply a temporary dungeon where sinning messengers are kept for chastening judgment at the Great White Throne. 

In Matthew 8 there is the account of the evil spirits (devils) who posessed two men from the country of the Gergesenes which Jesus exorcized.

Mat 8:29  And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

These sinning spirits know there is coming a time when they will be judged at the White Throne and their judgement will be a time of torment.  Not torture but torment.  This was discussed under the topic of "Fire".

There is not the faintest suggestion in text or context of the Scriptures that Tartarus carries the horrible conception which hell brings to the minds of people in general, and there is, not the slightest justification for so translating it as "hell". It is simply forcing ideas into God's word which He never intended to be there.

And, then, I found this, too, today.

I don't actually think of us as being in a state of 'limbo' when we enter eternity.....a brilliant Pastor I know had discussed that, and it made sense to me. But, I am no expert on eternity.   :dontknow:

D.

the question is, where do unbelievers (not believers) go after death in the UR paradigm ?...hmmmm, some kind of holding area ?...cant be 'the LoF' cos that doesn't apparently  happen till after the White Throne Judgement...'hellists' believe they go to 'Hades' to suffer pain and torment till they're called up to the Judgement then cast into the Lake of Fire to be tortured in flames forever without pity or mercy...a monstrous idea IMO... but, I really do not know where those who have no relationship with Christ 'go', till the White Throne Judgement...hopefully to a place where God can deal with them, reason with them..redeem them without the need for further 'correction/ chastizement' in the LoF. :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

There are a couple of primary views on this issue(OP) which people argue over in endless circular debates. I think when you die, as a believer, you close your eyes and know nothing until you wake up in the resurrection in the presence of the Lord. Some people believe you wake up immediately after death as a spirit in the garden of God- "heaven". I really think perhaps some people do go immediately into the presence of the Lord- maybe certain overcomers - "the spirits of righteous men made perfect." Hebrews 12 is a pretty good picture of the "heavenly Jerusalem" and the "habitation of God in the Spirit".

I try to never argue any point except that no one knows for sure so don't get up in arms about diverse views on it.

To me it is a meaningless and futile debate. Nobody knows for sure how it works.

Re incarnation has no scriptural basis, imo, with the exception perhaps of the things about John the Baptist, which some people use because they are misunderstanding the prophecy concerning John that "he will come in the spirit and the power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17)

Remember, when Elijah ascended, his spirit fell upon Elisha, so Elisha walked in "the Spirit and power of Elijah" and he was definitely not a re-incarnation of Elijah as they were historical contemporaries.

So John walked in the "Spirit and power of Elijah" because of an anointing from the Lord, and because an open heaven surrounded him, as it did all the prophets and Jesus and the early church.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."