What is the purpose for judging nations?

[jbertonbounds]

Matthew 25
³¹ "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. ³² Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ³³ And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. ³⁴ Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...⁴¹ "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I understand judging individuals, but nations?  :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

Our understanding of "judging" in the biblical sense is a bit messed up by fundamentalist theology.

The word "nations" is from the Hebrew word "am" and it means masses of people or the varied peoples.

IMO it is not about separating the US from Russia, for instance.

He will gather the peoples, He will separate them- but like a sieve or a winnowing fan- not like taking baskets of figs and separating basket from basket, but rather assembling all the baskets and separating out the good figs from each basket into one harvest and separating the bad figs out of every basket for another harvest-the fire harvest :o)

This is also seen in the parable of the wheat and the tares. They are separates from among one another in the field into two separate harvests

Harvest 1- THE GATHERING -This is exemplified in  Ephesians 1:9-11 or John 15:1-7

Harvest 2- THE BURNING- This is exemplified in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and All of Matthew 25

Evryone will be salted with fire and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. We are being salted every day :o) Salt preserves life and inhibits corruption. I think all these parables can be seen both IN THE NOW and also in the ultimate historical fulfillment of the ages.  :2c:

[jbertonbounds]

Thanks Eagle.  I used to see it that way, and then I read some things that sounded like some people believe that that scripture is talking about a separate judgement on the nations - a different judgement from the GWT judgement.  So I was wondering what other people thought of that.  I agree with your viewpoint.
:thumbsup:



I also noticed this and thought it was interesting from the UR perspective.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 [ESV]
¹¹ For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. ¹² Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— ¹³ each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. ¹⁴ If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. ¹⁵ If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

What jumps out at me in this passage is how obvious it is that "the fire" is not literal fire, for literal fire cannot burn up works.  Notice particularly the words "as through fire" on the end of verse 15.  "As" also seems to indicate the fire is not literal.  IMO It could be paraphrased, "as though he were purified in fire."

[sheila]

  while I agree with you,John,in regard to Him individually seperating the individual people under the

  various national authorities. I also beleive that He does set up and depose such national authrities

  according to His will. Just as Israel went into dispersion as a nation..Princes of other nations also

are under His jurisdiction.{see Daniel,Gabriel and Michael and Prince of Persia and Prince ofGreece account]

   any nation that will not go up will receive no rain/REIGN]   He will settle disputes of strong nations

    when heaven/God with-holds it's blessing on a nation/ruling authority..it is not a plesant prosperous land


      Realizing that certin men in power/leaders may be ruled by the man of sin[evil spirit] in them...they

  may be used of such..to  wreak much suffering.  carnal beastly men love power and use it for evil

  their greed knows no bounds. Indeed Babylon's image f such carnal rulerships will be struck

by the rock not cut out by human hands. The same for Babylon's false religion of idolatry/fornication with

kings of the earth[false-religion national aalliances]


   satan offered all the kingdoms of the earth to the Lord.......as his to give  but Father also has the liberty

  to devestate such nations also at His will[will the hammer exalt himself over He that weilds it?]

   Babylon destroyed for the waay she treated you..etc..for I was hungry,thirsty naked,sick etc.

     

     

[sheila]

ps   Mene Mene Tekel upharsem.....you have been weighed in the balance[judged] and found defeiceint.

  the writing on the wall for all kingdoms....

[eaglesway]

I agree that God deals with nations, raises them up and rolls them up according to His will and purpose. :o)

My opinion about Mtthew 25 is that it is speaking of all people in the day of the Lord, but as cumulative manifestations of the people, nations are also separated in time imo as the "administration suitable to the fulness of times" develops.

[Tom]

31 The many judgments in the Scriptures should be carefully distinguished as to time and
place and participants and the attending circumstances. There is no "general judgment", for
the saints are judged in the cross of Christ. The individual judgment of the unbeliever for his
sins does not take place in this life, but in resurrection. All mankind except those who are
Christ's will be raised from the dead to stand before the great white throne, which is not set up
until after the coming kingdom eon has run its course (Rev.20:11). The judgment here
presented differs in time, in place, in character and in purpose. It occurs at the commencement
of the kingdom, at His coming in glory, while the great white throne session does not take
place until after the thousand years. This judgment is on the earth. The earth will flee before
the great white throne (Rev.20:11). Living nations will appear before the Son of Mankind, but
only the dead come before the later tribunal. The nations are judged as such, not their sins, but
according to their treatment of Israel during the time of their affliction.
When God is judging the earth no greater act of righteousness can be done than to feed and
shelter His oppressed people. Each faithful Israelite stands in the place of Christ toward the
nations. Those who help them do so at the greatest risk, for they may be called to account by
the powers that oppose them. This tribunal is not concerned with their ultimate destiny, but
with their place in the kingdom. The kingdom will be comprised largely of gentiles,
subordinate to Israel politically and religiously, but nevertheless the recipients of much
blessing. All that they receive comes to them through Israel, while the present grace which we
enjoy comes to us because Israel as a channel is choked, yet the super-abundance of the grace
overflows all barriers. We have every reason to treat the Jews with the utmost grace, but our
conduct toward them is not a factor in our destiny. We do not enter the kingdom, because we
have a higher and more honorable allotment among the celestials.
(Matthew 25:31-46 Concordant Commentary on the New Testament Page 49)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[eaglesway]

I would love to see a little scripture for that highly, in my opinion, dubious declaration.

It is not so much that their is no truth in it, its just that , again, in my opinion, it is such a narrow slice that what it ignores is far greater in scope than what it presents about the judgment of God.

[Tom]

31 "Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,
32 and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.
33 And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left.
34 "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world.
35 For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in;
36 naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.'
37 "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink?
38 Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee?
39 Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?'
40 "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.'
41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.
42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:31-46)

[ded2daworld]

concerning salvation of nations...
God started dealing with the individual - Abraham
Then went to dealing with family - Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
Then went further dealing with each of the twelve sons of Jacob(Israel) becoming twelve tribes
The twelve tribes are dealt with as a nation.
Since Jesus, all persons in all nations have immediate access to knowing God in this life.
After death, All will know him, love Him, come to Him, be in Him and He in them.

I wonder if judging the individuals of a nation is judging the nation. What about those that change citizenship? What about traitors to their country? Wasn't Rahab the prostitute basically rewarded for betraying her country?
What about the countries of Ruth and Naomi? Is Ruth (an ancestor of Jesus) still a moabite?
What does it mean that it will be better for the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah then for the towns that asked for Jesus to do a miracle for them? :dontknow:

[sheila]

  re; what does it mean thaat it would be better for the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah...........

     I think it means to those who much is given,much is expected.  the many stripes/few stripes.

     
  re; since Jesus all persons have immediate access to knowing God in this life.   some governments ban

   worship of God,Christ. it is as if these nations say that God can not speak to His children....


    Matt 10; 14  if they will not welcome you[He come to his own]

   Matt 11;23  IF the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom

  IT WOULD HAVE REMAINED to this day


  as faar as Ruth the Mooabitess..she cleaved in love to Naomi and the God of Israel,

 

  Rahab was rewarded for concealing the Israelites[  Joshua 2;8-13...'for the Lord your God is

God in heaven above and the earth below"      'Our lives for your lives"

     to me,ded2 it is the grafting in of the wild to the tame. Romans 11;17 and 24

      people of all nations grafted in..some as firstfruits while on earth..and the rest in their order.
 

[sheila]

  what is the purpose of judging the nations?   Rev 12;15 the 7th trumpet

   the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ! And he will reign

  forever and ever.!!

   We give thanks to you Lord God Almighty,the One who is and who was.......

  BECAUSE YOU HAVE TKEN YOUR GREAT POWER AND HAVE BEGUN T REIGN

   THE NATIONS WERE ANGRY.......AND YOUR WRATH HAS COME...

   the time has come for judging.......and for rewarding..........both small and great

  and for destroying those who destroy the earth

    I see the nations wrathful as war and destruction wreaked upon the creation........

    satn was full of wrath,knowing his time was short...woe to the earth and to the sea..........


   I think that's the reason He cuts it short..........

[jbertonbounds]

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations..." [Mat 25, ESV]

I can certainly see how this is worded to sound like this judgement will be immediately after the return of the Christ.  If this is true, then Matthew 25 speaks of a judgement different from the one at the Great White Throne.

Any ideas, opinions, wisdom? :dunno2:

[WhiteWings]

Let me start I find it odd God judges nations while not all in that nation deserve equal punishment.
That said it's also is used positively.
In Rev we read kings entering New Jerusalem. Greek wording hints toward "military stuff". Like a king riding on his horse and his army/nation following him. Not for conquest but to shake hands. So here we the positive opposite. Nations get saved as a group.

[eaglesway]

31 "Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory,
32 and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.
33 And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left.
34 "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world.
35 For I hunger and you give Me to eat' I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in;
36 naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.'
37 "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink?
38 Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee?
39 Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?'
40 "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.'
41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.
42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:31-46)

understand that we are looking at Matthew 25.....I just don't see the exclusive relationship between judging nations and how they treated Israel in an aionian context. Romans chapters one and two make it clear(to me) that at the Lord is judging the "secret's of men's hearts" and that it is not hte hearers of the law but the doers who are justified. I see the judgment for how nations have treated Israel as being "in time" in the history of nations. God is no respecter of persons, for those who sinned without law will be judged without law, by the secrets of their hearts.

42 For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink;
43 a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?'
45 "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'
46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

This, to me, is not about judging whole nations for how they treated Israel- so I dont see how it relates to the commentary the commentary you posted.