Quote from "Hope Beyond Hell"
QuoteSome people receive many chances to get saved, others receive a few, but billions have never received one! If the opportunity to receive Christ were given in this life only, then God could be accused of being partial. The only way He would not be partial is if He lacked the power to give all the opportunity. But God is neither weak nor partial. All have the same access to salvation, for God's will, power, and love guarantee it. And furthermore, Jesus paid the price for all. If all did not have equal access, it would especially be unfair to Him. Scriptural support abounds for God's impartiality. God loves all men equally.
When you had a chance for getting saved?
I think that over the ages billions upon billions had the 'chance' to get saved. That vast majority has heard of Jesus/God/Church/Bible/etc
But what is a chance? A tract stuffed into your hands when you where out shopping in town?
If you throw away the tract did you throw away your chance and rejected your own salvation?
Since nothing is left to chance, it is a cliche of religion that is false teaching.
John 6:44 John 15:16
We tend to mock at the usage of the word "chance," but it's usually meant in the sense of "opportunity." And that "opportunity" is really only there when you're conscious of Him or of His dealing with you, even if you don't know what to call it. Walking into a bookstore and walking past the religious section with a dozen or so Bible translations isn't a legitimate "opportunity" if at the time the Bible's nothing more to you than Shakespeare, Homer, the book of Mormon, or the Hindu Gita. That first [ever so slight] incling of the reality of Jesus Christ is the beginning of your "opportunity" and not a thousand other chance incidents that religious people want to impose on you as a good enough reason for you to go to eternal Hell or to be rubbed out of Creation like a stain if you didn't say "how high?" when they wanted to say "jump!" It's between you and Him and not between you and them. Religious people live such torchered lives sometimes over the people that walked out of their presence without having officially allowed them to be the first witnesses to their "decision" for Jesus Christ. For any Christians looking over our shoulders on this board that don't agree with UR -- God's still bigger than you think that He is, and Jesus Christ doesn't give up as easily as you'd think. He'll show others at least as much grace and mercy as He's shown you, if you still can't see in your Bibles all that we're talking about :icon_king:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2008, 10:55:05 PM
Since nothing is left to chance, it is a cliche of religion that is false teaching.
John 6:44 John 15:16
Mmmm, are you calling UR a false religion?
It's a quoute from a TentMaker book: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
The verses you quoted.
QuoteJohn 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
John 15:16 'Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you, that ye might go away, and might bear fruit, and your fruit might remain, that whatever ye may ask of the Father in my name, He may give you.
So noone can really find God. God comes to man and not men to God. Is that correct?
Isn't that a great disadvantage becoming (a better) Christian?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2008, 11:44:33 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2008, 10:55:05 PM
Since nothing is left to chance, it is a cliche of religion that is false teaching.
John 6:44 John 15:16
Mmmm, are you calling UR a false religion?
It's a quoute from a TentMaker book: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Maybe the chances (sorry Martin :)) are only about the current life?
I think religion in general has it's cliches and that does not necessarily make it false just because they may be wrong.
What I said was it to be a false teaching. If the teaching is that our salvation is left up to us and the ability to recognize a chance happening to receive it, then I will consider that a false teaching.
I have not read that book in it's entirety, but I am certain that the truth of UR does not hinge upon a quote in it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2008, 11:44:33 PM
So noone can really find God. God comes to man and not men to God. Is that correct?
Isn't that a great disadvantage becoming (a better) Christian?
No. God is the ultimate potter and his ways are not our ways. The human condition will not make a better Christian, only one that appears to be so.
Martin ,
I'm not mocking the word 'chance' Just a sincere question; of which I have enough to fill a whole section. (no fear I'm holding back my spam...)
QuoteHe'll show others at least as much grace and mercy as He's shown you, if you still can't see in your Bibles all that we're talking about
Well.... not all Bibles are the same.
"Matthew 18:11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost." Isn't in half of the Bibles.
"The People's New Testament" commentaries state: :"
This verse does not occur in the Revision, and is not found in the most reliable Greek manuscripts, such as the Siniatic and Vatican"
(I would call the Vatican one of the least trustworthy judging their pagan symbols)
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 02, 2008, 12:01:59 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2008, 11:44:33 PM
So noone can really find God. God comes to man and not men to God. Is that correct?
Isn't that a great disadvantage becoming (a better) Christian?
No. God is the ultimate potter and his ways are not our ways. The human condition will not make a better Christian, only one that appears to be so.
Sorry, but now I completly lost track :Chinscratch:
That almost sounds like "do whatever you like (sin) because you can blame it on the great potter"
But I'm sure that's not what you mean.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 01, 2008, 10:55:05 PM
Since nothing is left to chance, it is a cliche of religion that is false teaching.
John 6:44 John 15:16
Amen Paul... to think that GOD would leave Salvation of the WORLD He "so loves", to LOST and SINFUL beings, is just to miss entirely WHO He is, and WHAT SALVATION is, and WHO is in charge of that program.
SALVATION is the act of bringing back to HOLINESS and UNTAINTED LIFE, that which IS UNHOLY, TAINTED, and DEAD.
The program is HOLY, and its SOLE DIRECTOR is GOD!
MAN in his folly, percieves that he/she has something to do with gaining SALVATION or LIFE in ANY CAPACITY (be it finite or infinite) other than being its recipient...
Ask anyone... did you have to
"ACCEPT" the GIFT which is
THIS LIFE in order to become ALIVE here?
When GOD created ADAM, did He ask ADAM, ..."do you ACCEPT this LIFE"? :rolleye:
peacE...
...willieH :thumbsup:
Quoteif at the time the Bible's nothing more to you than Shakespeare,...
The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings.
But mercy is above this sceptered sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute of God himself;
And earthly power doth then show like God's
When mercy seasons justice. --Wm Shakespeare, 1600
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 02, 2008, 12:04:27 AM
Martin ,
I'm not mocking the word 'chance' Just a sincere question; of which I have enough to fill a whole section. (no fear I'm holding back my spam...)
Ask all of the questions you'd like.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 02, 2008, 12:04:27 AM
Well.... not all Bibles are the same.
"Matthew 18:11 for the Son of Man did come to save the lost." Isn't in half of the Bibles.
"The People's New Testament" commentaries state: :"
This verse does not occur in the Revision, and is not found in the most reliable Greek manuscripts, such as the Siniatic and Vatican"
(I would call the Vatican one of the least trustworthy judging their pagan symbols)
I'm not worried about an individual verse not being in some of the manuscripts when the core idea is still elsewhere in those same manuscripts. No essential ideas are lost to us. Some say that parts of Mark 16 aren't in some of the manuscripts as well, but you can prove each of those core ideas by the Gospel of Matthew, the books of Luke and Acts, and Paul's epistles where he talks about the ministry of reconciliation and expounds on the great deliverance from the Kingdom of darkness and the translation into the Kingdom of the Son of His Love. Are any of those manuscripts in question, that you've mentioned, missing John 3:17-21?
Quote from: Molly on August 02, 2008, 01:54:01 AM
The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Tis mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown.
His scepter shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings.
But mercy is above this sceptered sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings;
It is an attribute of God himself;
And earthly power doth then show like God's
When mercy seasons justice.
--Wm Shakespeare, 1600
The Merchant of Venice: Act 4, Scene 1
Quote from: martincisneros on August 02, 2008, 02:02:58 AM
The Merchant of Venice: Act 4, Scene 1
Isn't it amazing how the words of those most blessed with talent for using them (since language is a divine function which satan wishes to usurp) so perfectly reflect the Creator himself?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 02, 2008, 12:10:58 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 02, 2008, 12:01:59 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2008, 11:44:33 PM
So noone can really find God. God comes to man and not men to God. Is that correct?
Isn't that a great disadvantage becoming (a better) Christian?
No. God is the ultimate potter and his ways are not our ways. The human condition will not make a better Christian, only one that appears to be so.
Sorry, but now I completly lost track :Chinscratch:
That almost sounds like "do whatever you like (sin) because you can blame it on the great potter"
But I'm sure that's not what you mean.
Well, what something sounds like is not a measure of it's truth.
How can anything be left to chance if the verses in Ecclesiastes is true?
Ec 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season for every event under the heavens:
How is God not responsible if he designed existance and we do not operate apart from his will?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
What opportunity does the lump of clay (thats us) need to take? As the perfect potter (GOD) is forming the pot (thats us), what opinion could we offer that would cause us to form better than what God has in mind?
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
The above is an intriguing verse as it implies that we are aware that we are on this journey we have no control over and we fight and struggle against it, yet, what good does it ultimatly do?
This verse helps me understand how we are imperfect by design for a period of time.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
As far as "live however we like" Don't we anyway? Jesus showed us that "how we live" is based in our heart. Who can bear to reveal the depths of evil that reside in our hearts for all to see? The action taken in the physical realm is irrevalent to what Jesus told the truth about.
And finally, God is indeed responsible, whether it "feels" fair that we are to account for our lives despite that is also irrevalent.
Ro 8:20 For to *vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him *Who subjects it, in expectation
Somewhere in UR literature a while back I read an idea that has blessed me ever since. If that whole "chance" or "opportunity" thing is working, how come nobody, not even by accident, has gone the right way? A few somewhere should have chosen God; but, no! "none seeks after God." "None righteous . . . none that does good?!" Where's the free choice?
What's happening?! It's because we are all under "the Law of Sin unto Death."
Romans 3:9-18
9 . . .we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
QuoteAnd the way of peace they have not known:
The one who said,
I am the way.. is also called the Prince of Peace.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:--Romans 3, 21-22
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
--Mat 5
Jeremiah 23:6
...and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Quote from: martincisneros on August 02, 2008, 01:55:06 AM
I'm not worried about an individual verse not being in some of the manuscripts when the core idea is still elsewhere in those same manuscripts.
It does worry me. If there are such easy spottable omissions, how much can you trust of the rest of the translation?
Or perhaps these verses really don't belong in the Bible and so making other versions wrong.
Understanding the Bible is hard enough for me without wrong translations or missing verses.
Now I get the feeling I have to cross-check every verse in at least 5 Bibles to know if what I read is indented to be there.
On the bright sight this 'discovery' made me remember this missing verse extra well :)
Quote from: martincisneros on August 02, 2008, 01:55:06 AM
No essential ideas are lost to us. Some say that parts of Mark 16 aren't in some of the manuscripts as well, but you can prove each of those core ideas by the Gospel of Matthew, the books of Luke and Acts, and Paul's epistles where he talks about the ministry of reconciliation and expounds on the great deliverance from the Kingdom of darkness and the translation into the Kingdom of the Son of His Love. Are any of those manuscripts in question, that you've mentioned, missing John 3:17-21?
John 3:17-21, are not missing. I bet you secretly knew that :)
http://www.sound-doctrine.net/VersesDeletedFromNIV.htm
http://www.missingverses.com/
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Bible-Studies-1654/NIV-Bible-2.htm
There are many more links. If someone is interested I'll post them.
Hi Paul,
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 02, 2008, 07:38:14 AM
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
I had to reread that 'create evil' part several times. And I'm still not sure I should read that literally. Things seem to get worse every question I ask :)
Humans have no free will. But they are being judged according to their acts they had no control over....?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 02, 2008, 10:11:34 AM
Hi Paul,
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 02, 2008, 07:38:14 AM
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
I had to reread that 'create evil' part several times. And I'm still not sure I should read that literally. Things seem to get worse every question I ask :)
Humans have no free will. But they are being judged according to their acts they had no control over....?
The phrase "free will" is not in the Bible, neither is "free choice," "choose freely," or anything like that. Addictions to such little changes stirs up trouble, making topics so murky you can't see through them to the bottom of things. Various beings are said to have wills. Scripture even has several Greek words to indicate different aspects of volition. Humans have wills. They have varying degrees of responsibility in using them. Even when one's own behavior could be legitimately considered to be in bondage to something wrong, there are other aspects of personality to evaluate, such as your reactions to and intentions for your self, persistence, diversion from or differences in your approach to God Who actually doesn't impute your trespasses against you and even how you deal with others who won't accept your right to God. You can be losing a battle yet be on the right side of the war, the side that wins in the end. It's your color of uniform that counts, not whether it's clean and pressed or bloody and dragged in the mud.
In saying, ". . . who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (vs.20) God is not so much upbraiding us for our questioning Him; rather, He's answering us with other questions that lead us closer to Him. In Romans 9 (vs.21-25) there's a surprising analogy of ourselves being the same inert clay molded into opposing vessels: those to show mercy and honor with Divine display of riches of glory and those to show Divine wrath and dishonor. Discovering that for His own purposes, ". . . hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth" (vs.18) the questions arise, "Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" (vs.19) This ignorantly pictures God as unjust and unloving. The common attempt to surmount this dilemma is like the fact God either made the devil the way he is or keeps him the way he is, which amounts to the same thing. Like Martin Luther said, "Even the devil is God's devil." Attempts to exhonorate God by claiming what is highly unlikely in the long run, though perhaps possible for a moment, that man's will subverts God's will really makes little difference to the answer since God either directly made us the way we are or He made us able to become the way we are. He's further assumed the responsibility for all through the death of Christ.
Being His slave is a better relationship with God than most people conceive of as possible, yet He says, "I no longer call you servants, but friends, because servants do not know what their Master is doing." Do you think of Him as Lord or Father more often? It's not so much about sin. More important is life. Yet, most people's reading of Romans, for instance, betrays the opposite emphasis. To make you into the appearance and similitude of God is an inward work. To mature, you must come to a mastery of your inner world and there is an order in doing so.
God judges all, as you do too; only, his determinations are absolute reality, though He's amazingly open to our requests. His judgment is not only without injustice, "true and righteous altogether," He makes all things skewed toward His preference for Mercy and Grace, which is the name of His throne. We compare someone's outward act with The Law (as we perceive it) so are judges of the law. God looks for mercy in the heart. Literally, "Blissed are the merciers, for they shall be mercied." God's judgments are unto life, bringing forth victory over all evil.
To evaluate anything, God is the Standard of all Measure. There is no here to there without The Way. He is not a man. It is not like He has to control anything in order to achieve His perfect will. Even if He does, it is all of love. Without our observation, the pervasiveness of His presence accomplishes all manifestation. He is The Substance of All Form.
---James Rohde
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 02, 2008, 10:11:34 AM
Hi Paul,
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 02, 2008, 07:38:14 AM
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
I had to reread that 'create evil' part several times. And I'm still not sure I should read that literally. Things seem to get worse every question I ask :)
I understand. The reason that verse is hard to accept is that you rarely see any Christian teaching using that verse without adding or taking away words. Some will say man created evil and God uses it for good. There will be no verses in the bible stating that clearly enough to say that the verse "really" means that. It sounds better so people will believe thats what it "really" means. There is really no context that will give an honest explanation that it means anything other than what it states.
Literally or through metaphor there will not be any difference in the intended purpose of that verse. Because two of the witnesses in scripture for that is Romans 8:20
Ro 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
Ec 3:10 I see the experience that Elohim gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it
QuoteHumans have no free will. But they are being judged according to their acts they had no control over....?
If the answer is yes, the next thought is thats not fair, am I correct? If so, there is a wonderful explanation to why its the most fair thing we will ever see.
It's not fair! :msealed:
So you guessed that right :thumbsup:
But reading your reply I'm wrong :laughing7:
The 'create evil' part in a sense is very clear.
If God forsees all He even before creating; He knew ours sins. And still he created. And because His powers are limitless He has no exuse like "I did the best I could."
So He did create evil.
Romans 8:20 => God allowed sins in His creation because sin actually gives a better endresult.
Correct?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 07, 2008, 04:53:48 PM
It's not fair! :msealed:
So you guessed that right :thumbsup:
But reading your reply I'm wrong :laughing7:
The 'create evil' part in a sense is very clear.
If God forsees all He even before creating; He knew ours sins. And still he created. And because His powers are limitless He has no exuse like "I did the best I could."
So He did create evil.
Romans 8:20 => God allowed sins in His creation because sin actually gives a better endresult.
Correct?
For the most part, yes. We can go further and distinguish whether there is a difference between evil and sin when it comes to judgment, but for the purposes of this, the point from scripture is that God has made everything, including evil, subjected us to that evil, even if that is in the form of our own sin and the consequenses of it and we have had no determinate say in the matter.
Since man has no hope of conquering evil on his own or controlling whatever the truth may be concerning our destiny, it is a very good thing that God has created it, is in control of it, and does indeed subject us to it for a purpose.
The problem that brings with the term accountability is mostly due to a bias the world has given justice and punishment and people take that bias and interpret scripture with it.
Our accountability has to do with our individual walk. Whether by our own doing we are imperfect or not, "Each" of us individually is on a jouney with the Lord. "Each" of us individually has to have corrective action taken within us, to us, or however God does that.
So, our accountability has to do with what takes place in our walk to get us to perfection.
That will be hard to understand as long as the worlds system of fairness and judgment is applied to scripture rather than allowing scripture to speak for itself.
It's very hard to let the scripture speak for itself if someone's (me in this case) understanding is very shallow. To me it feels like their are, say, 5 layers of understanding in the Bible. And I just understand the two simplest upper layers. Many people on this forum are writing at level 4 or 5; consequently I constantly come short a few inches from understanding.
So I'm kinda forced to use the world system to understand at least a little. But reading what you wrote and the general idea of the Bible; weren't we be created with certain hard coded values? And many of our laws look Biblically too. So perhaps the worldly system is reasonable useful. On-topic again.
For me evil and sin is the. But what to expect for a level two-er....
QuoteOur accountability has to do with our individual walk. Whether by our own doing we are imperfect or not, "Each" of us individually is on a journey with the Lord. "Each" of us individually has to have corrective action taken within us, to us, or however God does that.
To me that sounds differently from what you wrote above.
From your writings I get the feeling I'm a train on a railroad track that was build at creation/or my birth. I'm pushed forward on that track by time.
I have a little moving space inside the train. But then.... well read the quote below:
QuoteA scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too." The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?" Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."
I'm enjoying the ride :-)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 07, 2008, 08:38:04 PM
It's very hard to let the scripture speak for itself if someone's (me in this case) understanding is very shallow.
Well, I am not trying to oversimplify the study of the word. I probably did suggest that all of this is really easy and overall I did not mean to do that. But, you do not give yourself enough credit.
What I am saying is that the worlds bias will keep the simplicity of the verse in Isaiah stating God created evil from simply being a fact of scripture as it is written, therefore hindering your understanding to build from solid scriptural statements.
For instance if a doctrine cannot accept that a verse states "God creates evil" and demands that it must somehow mean "God did not create evil" then the whole of scripture is changed and understanding is hindered.
So what I guess I am saying is to not concern yourself with people who you think are at other levels. Start with allowing scripture to remain how it is written and you will be surprised at how your understanding grows. :)
QuoteOur accountability has to do with our individual walk. Whether by our own doing we are imperfect or not, "Each" of us individually is on a journey with the Lord. "Each" of us individually has to have corrective action taken within us, to us, or however God does that.
Quote
To me that sounds differently from what you wrote above.
From your writings I get the feeling I'm a train on a railroad track that was build at creation/or my birth. I'm pushed forward on that track by time.
I have a little moving space inside the train. But then.... well read the quote below:
I'm enjoying the ride :-)
Ever wonder if that space where you can move around is simply the ability to perceive and think within the train God has us on? :)