What Dreamer Said Mad Me Think

[Redkora]

This is from the "THINK" thread over in the Arguments section. I have not read the thread in its entirety, but this post on the first page jumped out at me:

PT, when you propose such questions it demonstrates why God cannot and does not reveal UR to the masses.  Not everyone can handle it or be trusted with it.  It seems that if you were convinced of UR, it would drive you mad. God is preserving your mind until you are ready.  :HeartThrob:

I think this is what happened to me about a could of years ago. I started to believe UR without actually having it revealed to me and I got into trouble with it. I backslid, screwed up, went back and forth tossed about by winds of doctrine, and even made the mistake of falling in [some pathological counterfeit for] love with someone on the Internet.

In other words, it drove me mad. I am not totally convinced of UR, but I am reading more and more about it. Hopefully, the Lord will show me the truth, whatever it may be, when I am ready.

[Kratos]

Red,

Thank you for sharing your testimony and your heart. I find this very interesting. I have been more than a little concerned as many who hold UR as truth seem to lose a lot of their faith and spiritual stability in the process. I have frankly wondered about the fruit of this truth. The idea of hearing it without it being revealed by God is an interesting take on it. I think that there is a problem when any one area becomes too much a part of our lives. This is what leads to fanaticizm and an out of balanced life.

Anyone else have similar experiences or concerns/

John

[firstborn888]

Red,

Thank you for sharing your testimony and your heart. I find this very interesting. I have been more than a little concerned as many who hold UR as truth seem to lose a lot of their faith and spiritual stability in the process. I have frankly wondered about the fruit of this truth. The idea of hearing it without it being revealed by God is an interesting take on it. I think that there is a problem when any one area becomes too much a part of our lives. This is what leads to fanaticizm and an out of balanced life.

Anyone else have similar experiences or concerns/

John

Knowing God is the only thing which bears fruit. Telling the truth of UR does not/cannot produce/hinder fruit. Knowing the God who planned and orchestrated UR does.

I've seen people who are taught ET go and sin like dogs.

I've seen people who are taught UR go and sin like dogs.

I've seen people who know God and yet believe in ET go and bear fruit.

I've seen people who know God and understand UR bear even more fruit, just for the sheer joy of knowing the 'big picture'.

Being one of the few I know who knew UR from the get-go, I can testify that the 'license to sin' thing is a myth in real UR based conversions. IMO UR it's the most genuine and pure fruit since it is practiced 100 percent out of love and zero percent out of fear of punishment. It is practiced to avoid CAUSING pain (to God and others) instead of practiced to avoid receiving pain, as is present (at least in theory) under ET.

My 3 cents :Sparkletooth:

blessings,
- Byron

PS - I've never heard of anyone going 'mad' over UR. I know several people who have gone mad over ET. In fact, Rodger Tutt's multi-year incapacitation (because of a nervous breakdown over ET doctrine while on the mission field) is what led me to break out of the closet, quit my job etc. People with strong empathy gifts can be destroyed by the mere thought of endless suffering. Plus I believe it promotes barbarism, ie: you become as you believe God is. I say - preach the truth and let the chips fall where they may. That way - those who want freedom will find it and those who are not free don't have that excuse (ET) to reject an unreasonably harsh God. 

[Redlettervoice]

Kratos, you never spoke truer words:

I have frankly wondered about the fruit of this truth. The idea of hearing it without it being revealed by God is an interesting take on it. I think that there is a problem when any one area becomes too much a part of our lives. This is what leads to fanaticizm and an out of balanced life.

Isn't it that way with "any" of the things of God? 

What "is" nice is fellowship in the Father and the Son, one with another, in love, condesending
to men of low estate and rising to men of high degree..........well, those who 'think' they are'
high degree.......? ha ...........methinks we all meet at the foot of the cross.

Love is what never fails.........

Let's get our LOVE in the barn!

Bout the time I think I got mine harnessed, long comes somebody and "tries" it! ha

And I just know God wants me to go over yonder.........ha...........well, I "hope'  you

understand me.  So help me God, I do believe it is LOVE that is being measured.......

Ah! to be filled with that love that is as high as it is wide, as deep as it is long, perfect

LOVE!  Yep!  Must surely be "God's" Love.   Gets me mind plumb off a lot of things. 

UR, ET, Athesism, Women in the Church, World Politics, must be that stuff that

NEVER FaILS.  And just think: God sends "angels" to help you get that LOVE in your

barn! Well, xcuse me, I am a little bit on the Love side this morning! ha

[hopeful]

Knowing God is the only thing which bears fruit. Telling the truth of UR does not/cannot produce/hinder fruit. Knowing the God who planned and orchestrated UR does.

YES!!!   :bigGrin:   :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I've wondered about this and I've watched people after they hear this. My personal opinion is since the Lord is the builder, if He wants them to receive it spiritually they will. If not if falls on stony ground and is not received except thru the carnal mind and therein lies the problem, as with any truth. The doctrine does not cause the problems. Man is led astray by his own lusts, which rise up to take advantage of the situation, and if one is not maturely grounded in the faith that comes from the Lord, problems ensue. The wheat and the tares are always raised up together, there is no escaping that. The Lord defined lust for me as desiring ANYTHING apart from His perfect will.

There, IMO, was a similar reaction to being shown there was no rapture. It was as if some of them had nothing to go forward for, so why push in so hard? We always want to edify and build up, but the truth is, revelation does not come just to do that, it also comes as a sifter of men's heart's, and to bring a choice of choose ye this day whom ye will serve. It is part of the true tribulation, the removal of the chaff in us, from the wheat.

The word tribulation comes from a word that is a threshing instrument for grain. Christ in us is that grain, and everything in us that is not like Him, must be threshed off the good grain. The Spirit breathed Word is what brings that tribulation. No man can see (perceive thru the mind of Christ) God and live (in his own ways anymore), and dying to self is not fun, and the natural mind seeks to avoid it all costs. Blessings to all.......

[Redkora]

Being one of the few I know who knew UR from the get-go, I can testify that the 'license to sin' thing is a myth in real UR based conversions. IMO UR it's the most genuine and pure fruit since it is practiced 100 percent out of love and zero percent out of fear of punishment. It is practiced to avoid CAUSING pain (to God and others) instead of practiced to avoid receiving pain, as is present (at least in theory) under ET.

I think that the extreme fear I had from ET is part of what fueled my craziness after trying to hold UR at first. I was still in the mindset of extreme terror of going to Hell to the point of developing OCD and depression around it, and my only real reason for doing things was to save my rear end.

I have read a few testimonies in which people have gone straight from ET to UR, but many (if not most) of those testimonies involve a traumatic event in the transition, such as attempting suicide. I suppose those who attempted suicide were at the end of their rope, so their minds were ready for God to move in. Not that I'm going to attempt suicide or anything, I am just ruminating on what may have helped their transition from one seemingly extreme part of the continuum to the other.

[Raggedy Anne]

Being one of the few I know who knew UR from the get-go, I can testify that the 'license to sin' thing is a myth in real UR based conversions. IMO UR it's the most genuine and pure fruit since it is practiced 100 percent out of love and zero percent out of fear of punishment. It is practiced to avoid CAUSING pain (to God and others) instead of practiced to avoid receiving pain, as is present (at least in theory) under ET.

My 3 cents SparkleTooth

blessings,
- Byron

PS - I've never heard of anyone going 'mad' over UR. I know several people who have gone mad over ET. In fact, Rodger Tutt's multi-year incapacitation (because of a nervous breakdown over ET doctrine while on the mission field) is what led me to break out of the closet, quit my job etc. People with strong empathy gifts can be destroyed by the mere thought of endless suffering. Plus I believe it promotes barbarism, ie: you become as you believe God is. I say - preach the truth and let the chips fall where they may. That way - those who want freedom will find it and those who are not free don't have that excuse (ET) to reject an unreasonably harsh God.

Amen, brother.  I was taught and believed ET from the time I was a small child, and over time, it nearly destroyed me.  I love the way you have summed it up.  For me, I always BELIEVED IN GOD and BELIEVED in JESUS, but it did not profit me because I did not know if I could trust them with the ET doctrine I had to deal with.

I know ET doesn't effect everyone this way, otherwise the churches would not have been able to flourish as they have (unless they are packed out because of fear???).  But I think there are churches who teach ET who have loving people in them who do not seem tormented by the doctrine, so I guess we're just all made differently inside. 

I had just wondered recently if the time of belief in ET is PART OF THE CROSS that we are to bear... "when I was a child, I thought as a child and spake as a child.... and also another scripture says it is good for a young man to bear the yoke of bondage in his youth (or something like that)  My theophilos bible is not on this computer so I'm trying to go from memory.  From the bible online....     *Galatians 4:1 NIV - What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate.


Your 3 cents made me laugh -- are you adding a penny because of inflation?  :Sparkletooth:

Anne

[firstborn888]

Your 3 cents made me laugh -- are you adding a penny because of inflation?  :Sparkletooth:

Anne[/color]

Yes, I'm giving more because 2 cents doesn't go far now days. I had to up the declared value of my free advice or people might not treasure it enough...
- byron

[Cardinal]

 :laughing7: :thumbsup: :2c:

[Molly]

I must be one of the few people here who was brought up in a church were hell was never mentioned.

I grew up knowing the love of Jesus, and to me he was always the loving God (or representative of God if you prefer)  that he is.

Thus, doctrines of ET always look a little silly to me as an adult, like some B rated movie.  Even a child could understand 'who takes away the sins of the world.'   As I've grown older, I've come to see his love for us in a more mature fashion.  It is not without responsibility or consequences.  But, as a child I just soaked it in, as will all children if they are given a chance, and that gives me ' a sure foundation.'



Mark 10:14
But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

[reFORMer]

The carnal mind will take any truth and deceive us with it.  The carnal mind will take good doctrine and use it against us, use it to slay us.  Paul said that of "the law," which could be called "the Instruction," a meaning of the word "torah."  "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.  For sin, 'taking occasion by' (getting an incentive through) the 'commandment' (precept), 'deceived' (deluded) me, and by it slew me." (Rm 710-11

Romans 7:7-14:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

[Cardinal]

 :thumbsup:

[Molly]

The carnal mind will take any truth and deceive us with it.  The carnal mind will take good doctrine and use it against us, use it to slay us.  Paul said that of "the law," which could be called "the Instruction," a meaning of the word "torah."  "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.  For sin, 'taking occasion by' (getting an incentive through) the 'commandment' (precept), 'deceived' (deluded) me, and by it slew me." (Rm 710-11

Romans 7:7-14:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Hi Reformer--Could you explain this in simple words please?  I'm having trouble understanding what he's saying and how it applies here.

Or, I could get some coffee and read it another five times.  :gangel: