What are we headed towards?

[Tim B]

I've been talking over at talk-grace.com and I've been getting very confused.  :mshock:

I stated this over on their forum:

From a simple Universal Salvation (through Christ) perspective I saw God's plan for history as something like this: God subjects all of mankind to sin, evil, disease, and death so that he might show all of mankind grace. I figured that this grace meant something roughly along the lines of bringing all of mankind into perfection with the Father and God would destroy sin, evil, disease, and death. I gathered that over the ages Christ would bring all of mankind to this perfect state of existence with the Father.

Many of them over there, and I see as very reasonable as well, see the scenario in Revelation already fulfilled. But, if that's the case, any hope of a New Heaven and New Earth seems to be cleared out of the picture of Christian Universalism. If that's the case, what in the world are we heading towards?? Obviously humanity has been ransomed through Christ for, at the very least, a relationship with Him in the NOW, but what about when we die?

I've been trying to ask similar questions over there, and they've been kind enough to give me lots of answers, but none of the answers seem to have any certainty.

BTW: I don't mean this as any offense to those over at talk-grace.com, as they're super nice. I'm just feeling a need for answers that I can't seem to find. Maybe I'm just not getting the answers I'm looking for, which could suggest I'm looking for answers that don't exist.  :sigh:

[martincisneros]

I still believe in literal heavens and earth that'll be glorified (per Romans 8) by the anointing of God at the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked at the same time, per Daniel 12, John 5, 2Timothy 4, etc.  This gets a bit into the millenial and New Earth questions, which is sorta over at the book of Revelation, with few exceptions still scattered elsewhere on the forum.  Though this is written by a Calvinist, you'll see quickly upon getting through it that Postmillenialism is more easily reconciled with the truth of the Gospel than the dispensational, premillenial "left behind" stuff:

http://www.berith.org/essays/esch

More extensive stuff going even so far as a discounting of a final Apostacy with good exegesis is available through the writings of H.A.W. Meyer and B.B. Warfield.  Again, Calvinist folks, but UR folks have often been the laziest of studying the Word for a solid Scripture view of the thousand year reign of the saints through the Christ within them.  With Postmillenialism, you're free to make up your own mind about past vs. future fulfillments.  Ken Gentry does something good on refuting the full preterism stance (i.e. that all of Revelation has been fulfilled) at this link at YouTube.  It's 5 parts, so make sure you'd stick around for all 5 parts or remember to revisit the link to find the rest.  There's quite a few theological blunders made by the hyper preterist camp that you need to be aware of because they set aside some very basic doctrines of the Gospel, which is dangerous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6msK6icBDIo&feature=PlayList&p=D95BB2E3D17B6DFF&index=0&playnext=1

And this, likewise by Kenneth Gentry deals with a Partial Preterist view of the book of Revelation, but this one's 25 video segments, and there's an intro by someone else:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C31A25E0CE0A1DC5

My jury's still out on all of this.  I'm personally sorta leaning towards the absolute basics of the first link I gave you, and then my own interpretations that take things as far as Absolute Postmillenialism that's a bit more advanced than regular Postmillenialism.  Absolute Postmillenialism envisions absolutely every single person on the planet as converted through the preaching of the Gospel prior to the return of Christ to raise the righteous and wicked to judgment.  Regular Postmillenialism simply says that the vast majority of mankind will be saved on the planet and Christ will return to a mostly Christianized world. 

Much of it, on how far you go with that, won't be the least bit related to futurist/preterist fusses but how you deal with the passage in Revelation 20 that precedes the resurrection and judgment, and I've shared my thoughts about there not being a final apostacy on the book of Revelation board on this same forum.  But each person has to make up their own mind about Revelation 20 and related passages about the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church, etc.  You may also find these 14 video segments by Gary Demar somewhat helpful in forming your own opinion about some of these things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMin608kKHo&feature=PlayList&p=B5392D2E4B3CF8EE&index=0&playnext=1

I lean towards a literal holy city in the heavens that'll bleed through to the natural realm through the faith and confession of God's Word of believers as they lean upon Christ Jesus as their High Priest upon every prosperity promise of the Word, [that would obviously be the ultimate of it,] simply because of what I've personally seen of it, some Biblical issues, and other reasons that I won't get any wordier with for the time being.  But again, the book of Revelation board may be helpful for you with other perspectives.

[reFORMer]

(Good Martin!  I'll use your suggestions for study.  For some reason I'm into something of this area, searching specific words and phrases of Holy Writ out, dealing with some eschatological issues at the moment, reading The Laws of the Second Coming by Stephen Jones gods-kingdom.org and other things...and in an on-going teaching by the Lord since before when the Church has traditionally celebrated resurrection this spring.)

It isn't where we're headed I'm directly addressing; but, something very important to it.  I'm also not trying to enforce a certain amalgam of views.  It is the method of discovery using the Scripture, specially the last book I want to unleash.  To have the basics of the several views doesn't meant that is what God wants you to give attention to.  It is good, though, to study and get your homework done to be a ready servant, waiting upon the Lord.

Keep the text.  It's like Ezekiel's vision of the Valley of Dry Bones.  "Son of man; can these bones live?"  The bones will come together rightly in the time appointed of the Father.  We argue before they live.  God will put sinews and flesh, hanging substance on the skeletons of what is written.  the revelation will be obvious.  He will breathe the breath of life into His great army when the time is right.  Keep the text, the actual words God chose to make His revelation known.

Look at what is written this way and that.  It isn't that all views of Biblical prophecy are equal; but, there is something valid in each classic position if they are purged of error.  Primarily, each are differently oriented in time, past, present, future and always now.  There is truth in the preterist view, things that have happened, but not exclusive of other understandings.  He can keep the text itself while sharing what he's gleaned with others.  The historicist sees things happening across the church age.  He can keep mining the text, the very words of God, comparing  and aligning to history.  The futurist tries to conceive of things to come.  Hopefully he takes the text and holds it to the Light.  Keep the words of the Lord.  The Holy Spirit takes what the text symbolizes to work on our experience of God.  The celestial realities from which are the things enacted on the earth in time are opened in the Revelation.  The earthly are but allegories of the heavenlyl

We should be open to one another while we are faithful to the text.  So much antagonism comes from trying to establish an exclusive parallel text as the true meaning.  It is the text itself that is true.  It is the working of life in fellowship with God and one another that puts the text of God's words to work in our lives. "Jesus...said...'If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and We shall be coming to him and making an abode with him.'" (Jn 14:23)

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Tim-B!   :happygrin:

I've been talking over at talk-grace.com and I've been getting very confused.  :mshock:

I stated this over on their forum:

From a simple Universal Salvation (through Christ) perspective I saw God's plan for history as something like this: God subjects all of mankind to sin, evil, disease, and death so that he might show all of mankind grace. I figured that this grace meant something roughly along the lines of bringing all of mankind into perfection with the Father and God would destroy sin, evil, disease, and death. I gathered that over the ages Christ would bring all of mankind to this perfect state of existence with the Father.

Yeah baby!  :winkgrin:

Many of them over there, and I see as very reasonable as well, see the scenario in Revelation already fulfilled. But, if that's the case, any hope of a New Heaven and New Earth seems to be cleared out of the picture of Christian Universalism.

The "new Heaven" and "new Earth" are not GOD remaking the Heavenly realm, nor the physical Heavens, nor remaking the "earth"

Why should He?

If Heaven is already a PERFECT place, ...why fix something that ain't broken?

The "New Heaven" is the MIND of man which begins CARNAL and by NATURE sinful... the "New Earth" is the resurrected body which is SINFUL, and is SOWN in death, and then raised in INCORRUPTION and LIFE...

If that's the case, what in the world are we heading towards?? Obviously humanity has been ransomed through Christ for, at the very least, a relationship with Him in the NOW, but what about when we die?

DEATH is a doorway bro... it is the end of our involvment with SIN...  We have always been SONS... as Job 38:7 PLAINLY notes... ALL the SONS of GOD, shouted for Joy at the Creation, we just dont "recall" the event...

I had dinner 4 weeks ago today... do I remember what I ate? :mnah:  ...Nah... did I eat?  :dontknow:  Of course I did, you should see my stomach!  :laughing7:

Just because I cannot remember certain things I have done, does not mean they did not happen.  :JCThink:

I've been trying to ask similar questions over there, and they've been kind enough to give me lots of answers, but none of the answers seem to have any certainty.

We RETURN to where we BEGAN brother, ...just as the LOST SON -- Luke 15:11-32 -- was WITH the Father, ...LEFT... and later RETURNED... to the FATHER he left!  (btw, you can't "return" to a place you have never been)

GOD is sharing His KNOWLEDGE with His Children, who are (1) His temple, and (2) His body...  PART of His KNOWLEDGE is GOOD and EVIL -- Gen 3:22 -- and in order to be PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY ...in HIS IMAGE... we ALL must have this KNOWLEDGE!

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Tim B]

Thanks everybody for all the info, it's encouraging!  :bigGrin:

Although, a note to WillieH on the last bit of his post, and he might not have meant what I thought he was saying, but: to have knowledge of Good and Evil I do not think that means that evil must always exist. As it states in Revelation that there will be no more pain (which is caused by either A) physical damage or B) psychological damage), tears (which obviously mean tears of sadness), and no more death (implying neither death of spirit or physical body, and spiritual death is caused by sin, that is, evil). So I think that even if we have knowledge of it, and perhaps are even fully capable of choosing sin, I do not believe that pain, tears, death or evil will be present in the future. I think currently God has allowed and, in the end, created evil for a purpose, but that is to chose us grace (as stated in Romans 11:32). But I'd be hard pressed to say he'd allow it to continue throughout eternity after he has restored all things.

If you didn't mean that evil would continue to exist... then I'm probably confused. I don't mean to accuse you of anything you didn't say. I just read it that way, so please forgive me if I'm mistaken and/or offended you

[lsmann2]

And to think I used to wonder why Paul told Timothy to rightly divide the Word of truth. Your question is a valid one. Some of the answers.......?? If everything in the Bible is analogies, and needs to be "spiritualized", we might as well stop studying, cross our legs and hummmmm.
Keep looking at the Word. Not everyone believes the Kingdom is here right now. Some of us don't even believe we'll be here on earth for it! :mshock:

[sparrow]

We RETURN to where we BEGAN brother, ...just as the LOST SON -- Luke 15:11-32 -- was WITH the Father, ...LEFT... and later RETURNED... to the FATHER he left!  (btw, you can't "return" to a place you have never been)

So what is this "place"?
Is it a literal, tangible place?
Can you walk up to a literal, tangible tree and look up and see literal, tangible birds sitting on the branches?

Is the "new earth" also a tangible place?
with things you can actually see and feel and touch?

Where ARE we headed?
So when we have our new bodies and new mind...then what?
Will we just float around and just BE?
Or will we live in a place, a REAL place where we can be and do and interact?

[martincisneros]

UR isn't full preterism.  Full preterism is AntiChrist.

[HartleyDamboiseII]

People, This is only My thinking.
New Haven and New Earth. i.e. All things, earth/all things made from atoms of God's making, man, plant, rock, air, space, and all other things you can list.

First thing is not to think of Revelation as the last book in the bible, because Cor, goes much further into the future than any book of Revelation.

If you want a comprehensive study in that book, look up J.P. Eby at Sigler Ministries.
Now as to the here and now/ after life.
The promise was that The Anointing would DO certain things, and He Has Done Those Things...

2009 years ago the father raised His Son out of death, and Finished all Death, since then all things have been in life, all made alive in Christ. There is no more sin, the only sin is the sin that you make of your own Law Making and the following of those Laws and the braking of those self-made laws. We are LIVING IN CHRIST'S THOUSAND YEAR REIGNS NOW. It started when death was destroyed 2009 years ago.

Revelation of God ( Matt. 16:18 "upon") is the New System of things, When all things come to an understanding that a higher power controls things, "They" start there own quest to understand.

God is like this to me in the physical things,  in all things there are atoms, in all things there are 2 things, sold and space, but there is an unseen third thing, energy. This energy is in everything. In every corner of the known universe and beyond. This energy is connected like a thought process in a brain. His Brain.

There is a process going on that will bring a close to the reign of Jesus "His" Christ, When all will be IN all. When all things are dragged to the understanding that God IS and God IS Love. Then We will be Home in Him and what goes on after All is, together again is HIS concern. After life? there can never be an afterlife because the use of the word says that life has to end, and life IN God never ends. What God does with His life/us, is His design.

Summery, All sin is ended at the cross, only self-reinforced-delusions i.e.  Law/sin/death.
Everyone will come to love God somehow-somewhere in "time", When time ends, there will only be God/us.

The new heavens and earth is NOW. Since life was given to all things when His Son Did It For Us whether or not we want to except that death was destroyed so long ago.

Lee Damboise II                  sinfree@gmx.com personal email
                                                A Rising Son Ministries
                                          Adult correspondences only please

[sparrow]

just bumping this up...

[claypot]

We RETURN to where we BEGAN brother, ...just as the LOST SON -- Luke 15:11-32 -- was WITH the Father, ...LEFT... and later RETURNED... to the FATHER he left!  (btw, you can't "return" to a place you have never been)

So what is this "place"?
Is it a literal, tangible place?
Can you walk up to a literal, tangible tree and look up and see literal, tangible birds sitting on the branches?

Is the "new earth" also a tangible place?
with things you can actually see and feel and touch?

Where ARE we headed?
So when we have our new bodies and new mind...then what?
Will we just float around and just BE?
Or will we live in a place, a REAL place where we can be and do and interact?

Great question sparrow. I like to go off into realms of wonder like your questions invite. Hopefully I can take a few facts too but here goes my 2 cents.....

I think 'Heaven' is a spiritual realm where the physical as we know it is more real than it seems now. I think life will kind of be like our dream world only perfectly pure and more 'solid'.

We will, at will, be able to do all the physical things we have always wanted to do here on earth while at the same time be able to 'soar the heavens' to explore the mysteries beyond.

We will 'live' productive and useful lives. We will teach and be taught. We will have challenges yet be perfectly content and even boundlessly joyful as we overcome. We will help others and be helped but again all in perfect contentment with no negative elements to deal with, at least they won't seem negative, they will be seen as opportunities to even more beauty and wonder.

I could ramble on more but maybe I'm being too corny already so I'll stop. Thanks for the opportunity to ponder, sparrow. Again, good questions.

cp

[claypot]

And to think I used to wonder why Paul told Timothy to rightly divide the Word of truth. Your question is a valid one. Some of the answers.......?? If everything in the Bible is analogies, and needs to be "spiritualized", we might as well stop studying, cross our legs and hummmmm.
Keep looking at the Word. Not everyone believes the Kingdom is here right now. Some of us don't even believe we'll be here on earth for it! :mshock:

Hey Is,

We live in a physical world, in physical bodies so I think God is the God of the physical as well as the spiritual. I believe the spiritual is Gods home turf though. I think this physical is a stepping stone to the spiritual.

Jesus said His words were spiritual. God is a spirit. Those who worship God must do so in spirit and in truth.

Jesus said He didn't speak anything but in parables.

And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear [it].  34  But without a  parable  spake he not unto them:mk4.33

I think He meant the main thrust of His message was parabolic, not that we don't benefit much in the flesh as we heed His words, but the main message, which is spiritual, is hidden deep down in the words of the physical.

No, Is, we definitely don't need to stop studying and cross our legs and hum. The Word, Truth, is like a treasure hid in a field. It is the divine spiritual hidden in the world of the physical. It is so adventurous and worthwhile to grab a shovel and dig!!!! Adventurous doesn't even begin to describe it and I think you know this.

PS: I think the Kingdom is here right now and it is a realm that will be. Jesus was pretty specific on this one. I see the 'Kingdom' within you Is. I saw it still buried in coglee, if you know who that was.

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the  kingdom  of God  is   within  you.lk17.21

cp