UR takes away some of the drama?

[marie glen]

I'll come right out and say it.. No beating around the bush. UR (universal reconciliation) as often presented takes away some of the all important drama and impact of the truth which is the fabric of this lesson aLL are learning.

Why do I say this? Well, 'hell'fire brings powerful images which inspire terror, and shivers of dread. I feel goosebumps right now as I write this.

Am I now in support of the doctrine(s) of 'hell'. No :eek: :eek: No way! That error is blasphemy of the highest order.

But I don't think the drama should all be taken away. Not only is the 2nd resurrection, when one rises still in imperfection, inferior (timelasting) to the joyful 1st one when "immortality and incorruptibility" that is, total newness ever renewing, are put on, but all the threatenings of what can or could happen, are still strong and powerful potentials. A 'soul' could (I think!) potentially hold out so stubbornly against God (and thus every good thing and all love) and could "perish" in the doing.

I believe the references to the Lake of Fire, uses, not forever and ever, but age during and age during, as the original Greek puts it. You may know that I believe very few, if any, actually go to the LOF (after all after you've been resurrected from their dusty grave, who the heck's not going to, with thanksgivng, "believe"? And the verse which says, "those" not believing "not written in the Book of Life, will go to the LOF, the 2nd death" is the very LAST verse of the whole chapter, Rev 20, following even "and death and 'hell' was cast into the LOF".)

Yet the danger, to every one of us, is very real. Jesus said there is an "unforgivable sin". I find myself thinking this means a sin which is unable to receive forgiveness of. That a reasoning, rational creature can harden their heart and increasingly harden their heart.. against God, and can habitually reject and hate God, until the heart becomes like iron, or stone, and cannot allow in any ray of light, their bitterness is so great. Not that I believe that will happen. After all, God can only be perfect, and perfect makes no mistakes, nada. And how could any being endowed with rationality by our Loving Creator Father, reason their self into choosing to perish?! But the potential and possibility is still there. It can, and could, imo, happen!

And this, imo, is part of the all important thing we all are learning, a "beyond the shadow of doubt" sort of thing. :girlheart:

[dajomaco]

I believe that a human being can not commit the unpardonable sin.
Only an evil spirit can commit such a sin.

[JulieTang84]

That a reasoning, rational creature can harden their heart and increasingly harden their heart.. against God, and can habitually reject and hate God, until the heart becomes like iron, or stone, and cannot allow in any ray of light, their bitterness is so great.

Oh my Gosh Marie Glen, what a wonderful post  :HeartThrob:

You know, I have always had questions about those with hardened hearts. Were they responsible by their own free will? Or did they have some help?

Rom 9:18   Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Now why would God do that? Even yet. How can we tell the difference?  :eek:

I know I read Paul saying somewhere, to those that little has been given, little shall be expected and the punishment (pruning or correction) will be light.

Likewise, I read that those to whom much has been given, much will be expected and if not found, the consequences much greater.

So why did God harden the hearts of some? I feel it is as an opportunity to grow in love for the rest of us. (I just wrote about this earlier)

This is just my opinion. Perhaps the ones with the hardest hearts will have the easiest time of it?

So many questions  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[JulieTang84]

I believe that a human being can not commit the unpardonable sin.
Only an evil spirit can commit such a sin.

I agree with you on this. But have a question for you. I have read that some are sure that Satan will be utterly destroyed as in even the memory of him is gone. Likewise, I have read that he will be cleansed totally and his former essence will be destroyed as with mine I am sure and he will return to his former glory.

I tend to believe the later option. My reasoning is that Satan will be a loose end that God choses to ignore if Satan is not purified. I also believe that NOTHING!!!!! happens outside the will of God and the evil committed by the spirits as you mention was indeed willed by God.

What are your thoughts on this? Not that it matters  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[sheila]

  I also am convinced that only an evil spirit can commit the unpardonable sin against the Holy spirit.

   when an evil spirit on a person leads them to sin against the Holy spirit...instant death occurrs..the person

  possessed is released and the spirit leading them against the Holy spirit is bound[abyss next age], til the time it is released to go forth again and mislead men[after the 1000yr are over. fire come doown from heaven

   and consumed those who fought against the camp of the HOLY[spirit] City

   thrwn into the lake of fire.

   cts 5;3  Ananias....how is tht Satan has s filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy spirit?

   it is an abomination in the temple/body of man...satan on the rightful throne of God..and it is dealt

  with quickly.  Just s Judas also expierenced when satan enetered him..also the liar and theif in him.

     they got the greater part of humanity..but where He is working and dwelling in Holy spirit..they best

  beware..for swiftly it comes.

[dajomaco]

22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Him. He healed him, so that the man[h] could both speak and see. 23 And all the crowds were astounded and said, "Perhaps this is the Son of David!"
24 When the Pharisees heard this, they said, "The man drives out demons only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons."
25 Knowing their thoughts, He told them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, who is it your sons drive them out by? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. 29 How can someone enter a strong man's house and steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house. 30 Anyone who is not with Me is against Me, and anyone who does not gather with Me scatters. 31 Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.[j] 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come



The whole contrast is between the power of the Holy spirit and that of demonic spirits.
I believe a human being (flesh )can not command a  demonic spirit.
The flesh has tried and has been beaten up.
Unless the Holy Spirit sets you free you are not free.

[dajomaco]

I believe that a human being can not commit the unpardonable sin.
Only an evil spirit can commit such a sin.

I agree with you on this. But have a question for you. I have read that some are sure that Satan will be utterly destroyed as in even the memory of him is gone. Likewise, I have read that he will be cleansed totally and his former essence will be destroyed as with mine I am sure and he will return to his former glory.

I tend to believe the later option. My reasoning is that Satan will be a loose end that God choses to ignore if Satan is not purified. I also believe that NOTHING!!!!! happens outside the will of God and the evil committed by the spirits as you mention was indeed willed by God.

What are your thoughts on this? Not that it matters  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

I believe at a point in time there will no consciousness of any thing other than God
We will only be conscience of LOVE .

We can guess now what might happen.
The guesses that reflect Love will some how be most accurate.   

[Deena]

I hope I have understood the original post (if not, please ignore this), but I would like to add, since I believe that God is the creator of both good and evil (stated in Isaiah), and is in charge of its interplay upon his creation to bring about His will, and since all of creation has be subjected to vanity by Him in hope, I cannot agree with the thought that God will come and punish the wicked (sometimes I think this life is punishment enough).  Can they help it?  Is God responsible for His creation?  Of course He is.  That's why He is both a just God AND a Savior.  He is a Savior because He is a just God--He is responsible for His creation, and thus must save it.  This interplay of good and evil is being wrought out according to His plan.  Why punish or hold the vessel of His forming responsible?  I do believe He will apply his chisel or fire to refine and form us, which may feel like punishment at times, but like going to the dentist, sometimes the drill must be applied.  In the end, God's plan for His creation is liberty and glory.  Oh, how long must we wait, Lord? :Pray: It gives me great peace to know that He has it all planned out.  I sit and watch for the call.

[marie glen]

It's my belief God is Perfect and will lose no one on earth or in heaven : )
I also believe He is Life itself and also Perfection, therefor we, all, needed to be rescued because to be imperfect is to be the opposite of life.

I also believe no living beings will go to the lake of fire :smile: :hiya: yet I believe it's a potential that one could, for "age during". Ever is actually "aion" and there is no "for ever" in the scripture, especially when it comes to the notorious LOF. But I don't believe anyone will, the two of rev 19 may be "active" (institutions of men) when cast into the LOF, but they are not living or alive persons, etc.

But! Jude wrote that the smoke of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah would rise up for ever/aion and aion" - There's no flame there now. But the memory rises up still..

I believe the 'judgments' of God are actually consequences and results of one's own doings, or nation's doings and that what we're learning, is good from evil which is also life from death. All human history, and every life, the same story. And I believe it's a foundational lesson all simply have to learn.. if there's to be rationality there is. Being simply one cannot walk away from life, or they'd be pretty dang dumb if they did, when all is said and done.

My main point I find myself dwelling on is "judgement day" I believe will turn out to be "Day of Atonement/Reconciliation" where all unsaved (and saved) will witness the review of all things, and all unsaved will hear the news of redemption - Where does it say in the Bible once one dies, all hope is lost?

peace and blessings..! :smile:

[JulieTang84]

It's my belief God is Perfect and will lose no one on earth or in heaven : )
I also believe He is Life itself and also Perfection, therefor we, all, needed to be rescued because to be imperfect is to be the opposite of life.

I also believe no living beings will go to the lake of fire :smile: :hiya: yet I believe it's a potential that one could, for "age during". Ever is actually "aion" and there is no "for ever" in the scripture, especially when it comes to the notorious LOF. But I don't believe anyone will, the two of rev 19 may be "active" (institutions of men) when cast into the LOF, but they are not living or alive persons, etc.

But! Jude wrote that the smoke of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah would rise up for ever/aion and aion" - There's no flame there now. But the memory rises up still..

I believe the 'judgments' of God are actually consequences and results of one's own doings, or nation's doings and that what we're learning, is good from evil which is also life from death. All human history, and every life, the same story. And I believe it's a foundational lesson all simply have to learn.. if there's to be rationality there is. Being simply one cannot walk away from life, or they'd be pretty dang dumb if they did, when all is said and done.

My main point I find myself dwelling on is "judgement day" I believe will turn out to be "Day of Atonement/Reconciliation" where all unsaved (and saved) will witness the review of all things, and all unsaved will hear the news of redemption - Where does it say in the Bible once one dies, all hope is lost?

peace and blessings..! :smile:

Thanks Marie Glen, this is what I believe too. Your last paragraph needs to framed.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[micah7:9]

I hope I have understood the original post (if not, please ignore this), but I would like to add, since I believe that God is the creator of both good and evil (stated in Isaiah), and is in charge of its interplay upon his creation to bring about His will, and since all of creation has be subjected to vanity by Him in hope, I cannot agree with the thought that God will come and punish the wicked (sometimes I think this life is punishment enough).  Can they help it?  Is God responsible for His creation?  Of course He is.  That's why He is both a just God AND a Savior.  He is a Savior because He is a just God--He is responsible for His creation, and thus must save it.  This interplay of good and evil is being wrought out according to His plan.  Why punish or hold the vessel of His forming responsible?  I do believe He will apply his chisel or fire to refine and form us, which may feel like punishment at times, but like going to the dentist, sometimes the drill must be applied.  In the end, God's plan for His creation is liberty and glory.  Oh, how long must we wait, Lord? :Pray: It gives me great peace to know that He has it all planned out.  I sit and watch for the call.

:dsunny:

[marie glen]

It's my belief God is Perfect and will lose no one on earth or in heaven : )
I also believe He is Life itself and also Perfection, therefor we, all, needed to be rescued because to be imperfect is to be the opposite of life.

I also believe no living beings will go to the lake of fire :smile: :hiya: yet I believe it's a potential that one could, for "age during". Ever is actually "aion" and there is no "for ever" in the scripture, especially when it comes to the notorious LOF. But I don't believe anyone will, the two of rev 19 may be "active" (institutions of men) when cast into the LOF, but they are not living or alive persons, etc.

But! Jude wrote that the smoke of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah would rise up for ever/aion and aion" - There's no flame there now. But the memory rises up still..

I believe the 'judgments' of God are actually consequences and results of one's own doings, or nation's doings and that what we're learning, is good from evil which is also life from death. All human history, and every life, the same story. And I believe it's a foundational lesson all simply have to learn.. if there's to be rationality there is. Being simply one cannot walk away from life, or they'd be pretty dang dumb if they did, when all is said and done.

My main point I find myself dwelling on is "judgement day" I believe will turn out to be "Day of Atonement/Reconciliation" where all unsaved (and saved) will witness the review of all things, and all unsaved will hear the news of redemption - Where does it say in the Bible once one dies, all hope is lost?

peace and blessings..! :smile:

Thanks Marie Glen, this is what I believe too. Your last paragraph needs to framed.  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

thank-you, Julie, :smile: I often if not almost always feel most do not understand or misread what I
try to say :ty:

[WhiteWings]

I have read that some are sure that Satan will be utterly destroyed as in even the memory of him is gone. Likewise, I have read that he will be cleansed totally and his former essence will be destroyed as with mine I am sure and he will return to his former glory.

God is a refiner. Sinners are gold mixed with dross. LoL is separating the dross from the gold. We all are gonna lose some weight. The question is how many weight will satan lose? 50%? 70% or 100%? In other words what if satan is 100% pure evil. OTOH he used to serve God. I even think he was the highest ranking angel of all. Dunno. I don't give satan more than a 50/50 chance. And that's quite positive.

[ded2daworld]

I'm positive Satan either will or will not be reconciled. :dsunny: