Transubstantiation

[Christus Victor]

I hope this is the right forum for this question:

As I mentioned in my introduction I stayed tethered to institutional religion, primarily institutional Christianity, for many years for a multitude of reasons but one of the big ones was the Eucharist. I've stayed in Roman Catholicism (with some dabbling in Eastern Orthodoxy) mostly because of the following passage out of the Gospel of St. John:

32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.  33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."

35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.  36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.  37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out.  38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.  39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.  40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Rejected by His Own

41 The Jews then [g]complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."  42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]"Do not murmur among yourselves.  44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.  45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.  46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.  47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life.  48 I am the bread of life.  49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.  50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"

53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.  54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.  55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed.  56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.  57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.  58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?"

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, "Does this

• offend you?  62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?  63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.  64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.  65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
  
  66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more.  67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
  
  68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.  69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God."
  
  70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"  71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
  

That's the 6th chapter of John's Gospel. To me, perhaps because of many years imbibing "Apostolic Christian" (RCC and EO) apologetics, seems to clearly back up the concept of transubstantiation. How do we as believers in the Victorious Gospel, counter these claims? What is a different way to interpret John 6?

Thank you in advance for any answers or guidance.

[eaglesway]

I believe in transubstantiation in only one way. When I share the bread and wine in fellowship with believers, as unto the Lord, it becomes in me healing and consecration to Him, and them...by the sharing, and the inner contemplation and whatever revelation of love and forgiveness it brings. This communion is the love that is His flesh, broken as ever multiplying manna from heaven, and the precious wine of the joy of love...."Love one another, that your joy may be full.....that you may be one as I and the Father are one- I am in the Father and the Father in Me and I in you. If transubstantiation means only that RC biscuit suffices as the flesh of Christ, to me, that is mythology.

Paul didnt rebuke the Corinthians because they were pigging out on biscuits. He rebuked them because they didnt get the reason for the act- remembrance of His sacrifice for us and applying it between us. "No greater love has a man than that he lay down his life for his friends."

[jabcat]

I see it as symbolism, metaphor.  A picture/description of our partaking of Him, knowing Him, walking in Him, fellowshipping with Him, being in union with Him, Him living in us and us in Him, etc.    Similar to "that they be ONE even as We are ONE"...i.e., not literal, but still true. 

[Dandelion]

The trouble, as I see it, with Transubstansiation, as the Roman Catholic Church teaches it, is that it states that is a recreation of the death of Jesus on the cross, in which a priest is necessary as an intersesor between God and Man. Jesus death sufficed once and for all for our Salvation. And, a priest does not need to help recreate the death of Jesus, simply because it should not and cannot be recreated.

The Lutheran Church calls the way that Christ is truly present in Communion, simply the word of God. Here is an excerpt from the website of the LCMS, or the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

We do not try to explain how Jesus is present under the bread and wine of the Lord's Supper, rather we believe, teach, confess and rejoice that He is present.We Lutherans let the words of Jesus stand without arguing about their possibility, or trying to explain how they are true As Luther put it so clearly,"We maintain that the bread and the wine in the Supper are the true body and blood of Christ"(SA III.6).Everyone who communes receives into their mouths the body and blood of Jesus Christ, whether they believe it or not, be they worthy or unworthy.

I don't think that anyone should be considered unworthy to receive communion, as it is the power of grace, in the unselfish act of dying on the cross, that gives us forgiveness.

I, personally, enjoy receiving communion, at church, or elsewhere. It is beautiful in the reverence that it gives to taking the body and blood of Christ, in a gesture of fellowship and the communion of saints. When I was little, I learned a song, called ONE BREAD, ONE BODY....the term body also referring here to the church on earth, as well as the piece of unleavened bread that we eat.  ( see below)

One bread, one body,
one Lord of all,
one cup of blessing which we bless.
And we, though many,
throughout the earth,
we are one body in this one Lord.
servant or free,
woman or man, no more.
One bread, one body,
one Lord of all,
one cup of blessing which we bless.
And we, though many,
throughout the earth,
we are one body in this one Lord.


Read more: Hymns - One Bread, One Body Lyrics | MetroLyrics

Yes, that is the mystery of Christ's death and resurrection.  Son of God; Son of Man, who gave His life for the whole world, that we may be one, just as Jesus and His Father are one. That Humanity be reconciled to God, by this incredible gift of Love. I get chills just thinking about it.

D.
     

[Christus Victor]

So as a kind of follow up question, do you (and all of TM) attend church services? I'm assuming you're a Lutheran? What about others, do you guys attend church services even though they preach eternal damnation?

[Dandelion]

I actually attend Church services at many different churches/denominations, but, yes, I primarily go to Lutheran services.

I attend services at 2 different denominations of Lutherans.....one believes in hell, and the other does not. It gets complicated to explain all the reasons they are different, and why I see things in both their customs that I like.

D.

[Christus Victor]

I actually attend Church services at many different churches/denominations, but, yes, I primarily go to Lutheran services.

I attend services at 2 different denominations of Lutherans.....one believes in hell, and the other does not. It gets complicated to explain all the reasons they are different, and why I see things in both their customs that I like.

D.

Which denomination doesn't believe in hell? The ELCA?

[Dandelion]

Yes. It is part of their stated theology, that there is Universal Reconciliation.

D.

[Christus Victor]

Is that not the very "liberal" denomination with transgender pastors and gay marriage?

[Dandelion]

Yes.

D.

[GodIsLove]

Hi Christus Victor,

I was raised Roman Catholic and I had a long road of atheism/agnosticism/new age/Buddhism/other Christian denominations (not necessarily in that order)...and now my family—husband and 3 small kids attends a small Roman Catholic Church.

We started going and I just felt it was where I should be, the messages I got each week were on point and applicable to my life etc.

On Christmas we attended another Catholic Church in another town and we walked out soon after because of several factors.

Meaning, I think the church I'm attending is where our family should be but I don't think every Catholic Church, or every Christian church for that matter, are places i would worship.

I met with the pastor of our church to talk theology and I opened with "I don't believe in hell" and without skipping a beat he said "oh! I don't either!"

I don't have time to delve into all that we discussed but in summary, I am either in agreement with or ok with everything he believes.

So I think God puts us places, and I also think that within different churches there are individual pastors, believers, etc who are connected to the truth, and we shouldn't dismiss that.

And I often say, that I believe each church/denomination/believer has some truth and some error mixed because of an imperfect world.

Edit: in my lifetime, I've spoken with another Catholic priest and a catholic deacon who also believe in UR and believe theology that would be compatible with a lot of our Tentmaker discussions.

[Christus Victor]

Hi Christus Victor,

I was raised Roman Catholic and I had a long road of atheism/agnosticism/new age/Buddhism/other Christian denominations (not necessarily in that order)...and now my family—husband and 3 small kids attends a small Roman Catholic Church.

We started going and I just felt it was where I should be, the messages I got each week were on point and applicable to my life etc.

On Christmas we attended another Catholic Church in another town and we walked out soon after because of several factors.

Meaning, I think the church I'm attending is where our family should be but I don't think every Catholic Church, or every Christian church for that matter, are places i would worship.

I met with the pastor of our church to talk theology and I opened with "I don't believe in hell" and without skipping a beat he said "oh! I don't either!"

I don't have time to delve into all that we discussed but in summary, I am either in agreement with or ok with everything he believes.

So I think God puts us places, and I also think that within different churches there are individual pastors, believers, etc who are connected to the truth, and we shouldn't dismiss that.

And I often say, that I believe each church/denomination/believer has some truth and some error mixed because of an imperfect world.

Edit: in my lifetime, I've spoken with another Catholic priest and a catholic deacon who also believe in UR and believe theology that would be compatible with a lot of our Tentmaker discussions.

I thinking of perhaps attending an Eastern Catholic Church, perhaps an Eastern Orthodox Church because the East seems more open to UR than the West which doubled down on Augustinian legalistic thinking in salvation.

[Dandelion]

That might be true.

So many factors into choosing a church. In a fallen world, there will always be error.

We have the Holy Spirit who can guide us to the right place, for us. Thank goodness.......

D.

[Christus Victor]

That might be true.

So many factors into choosing a church. In a fallen world, there will always be error.

We have the Holy Spirit who can guide us to the right place, for us. Thank goodness.......

D.

Which I struggle with because I struggle with a fair degree of Phariseeism and it's hard for me to reconcile internal disagreement with a church and will pick apart the church and it's theology endlessly.

[Dandelion]

I used to be more like that. I was taught to physically stay away from Protestant churches, by my Irish Catholic mother. There was only one church that was 'real' when I was young, and that was the Catholic Church. I was taught, in Church and at my Catholic school, that is was the one, true Church.

But, I have changed a tremendous amount since then. It is a journey I continue on.

I have a friend who uses Mother Teresa's saying a lot. If you judge people, you don't have time to love them. I believe judging gets in the way of loving in many ways. My present way of looking at it is to start where people and places are, and go from there.

But, I don't want to judge you, either!    :friendstu:

D.

[Christus Victor]

It's hard because I want a communal worship body but I find that as soon as I start looking around in institutional Christianity I lose my joy. I start to get caught up in those concerns and conforming to those standards. When I step back just search the Scriptures via Tentmaker, Pastor Hiett videos, etc. I feel the joy, the peace that surpasseth all understanding.

[Dandelion]

It's hard because what we really need to do, I believe, is to let go.

D.