Tentmaker Forum

I have seen this word pop up more and more in threads referring to carnality of man and I am wondering the thoughts behind the use of it.

Webster's defines Carnal as:
1 a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites b : marked by sexuality <carnal love>
2 : bodily, corporeal <seen with carnal eyes>
3 a : temporal <carnal weapons> b : worldly <a carnal mind>

From what I am seeing lately this word is being used to mean 'sinful'.  Though the acts described behind the definition of carnal are seen as sinful by mainstream Christians, I believe that God did NOT create a sinful man.  The bible tells us in Genesis that we have been created in His image.  Seeing as God is not sinful, we were not created to be sinful people.  Sin (and hence death) is the result of the lies of humans believing the serpent in the garden instead of believing the truth of God, not because God created 'Carnal Man'... He created 'Man in HIS image'... pure, righteous and holy... not decietful, evil and selfish (the results of sin).  Do we as humans have sexual urges?  Of course, it's how procreation happens, and we were created to reproduce!  It's when we give in to those desires to elevate us in our own minds to a point to make us feel better about ourselves over and over again instead of realizing the truth of who we were created by and for, that's when it becomes carnal.  But just because we sin doesn't mean that we are carnal beings.

Yes, God did create us in his image.  Did he create carnality "in" us?  I don't see that he did.  I see that he created us out of the dust of this earth, but then transported us to the garden where spirit was predominant over natural.  But when Adam fell, he returned back to "this" realm which is where carnality is the prince and power of the air . .it is the governing force and because we were originally created from the elements this realm consists of, our flesh is very much influenced by carnality.

Sin, to me is the evidence that carnality is at work in us.  Righteousness is the gift that releases us from the power of the carnality of this world that ushers us into the world of light, love and liberty in truth.

G4559
σαρκικός
sarkikos
sar-kee-kos'
From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.
Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

enmity against God . . .evidence carnality is in play . . .

Not sure where you're intending to go with just posting a definition.

I only stated the definition of Strongs because the first post seemed to be stalled on mans understanding, and that being sexual.

Quote from: Nathan on April 21, 2010, 10:12:37 PM
Sin, to me is the evidence that carnality is at work in us.  Righteousness is the gift that releases us from the power of the carnality of this world that ushers us into the world of light, love and liberty in truth.

Here's a little thought about that...

If there's a starving woman in the street who needs to eat something, and she finds and steals something to feed that hunger within her, she is feeding her carnal (bodily) urge to eat... the same as a lion or a tiger hunts down prey when it gets hungry.  Is she really sinning out of being sinful?  Is she sinning by stealing because she has a carnal urge to eat?  Didn't God create us with the need to eat?

I honestly doubt that her receiving the gift of righteousness will release her from that carnal urge and put food in her belly, or release her from hunger pains altogether.  She can have all the life, love and liberty she wants, but when it comes down to it she will still have hunger pains if she doesn't eat.

Quote from: micah7:9 on April 21, 2010, 11:07:25 PM
I only stated the definition of Strongs because the first post seemed to be stalled on mans understanding, and that being sexual.

I focused on the sexual because it was the prominent theme in the dictionary... 'crude bodily pleasures ', 'marked by sexuality', 'bodily/fleshly'...

There's many more 'carnal' urges and desires man has... to eat, to sleep, have shelter, etc.

QuoteI believe that God did NOT create a sinful man

:thumbsup:

QuoteBut when Adam fell, he returned back to "this" realm

Hey Nathan, you are aware that Eden was on this planet, it's on a mountain, surrounded on three sides by mountain with only one way in and one way out....right now possesed by the Muslims?

QuoteI honestly doubt that her receiving the gift of righteousness will release her from that carnal urge and put food in her belly, or release her from hunger pains altogether.  She can have all the life, love and liberty she wants, but when it comes down to it she will still have hunger pains if she doesn't eat.

That's the whole point, God didn't send Jesus to save us from life, but in order that we may have it more abunduntley.

Eden is possessed by Muslims?

Ya, the last time I looked they had armed men and electric fences posted all around it....also around Mount Ararat...that's what they believe to be the mountain of God.

But where is Eden?

It's a physical Garden, not sure exactally where, check google, I saw a show on it, a reporter was driven in to a military area of it, he wasn't allowed in, they even blind folded him....

They found it using the bible's mention of when Cain left the base of the mountain of Eden, he went to Nod wich is east of Eden. Genesis 4:16

Ya, check it out, Eden's location is well known...

This carnal stuff took us to the real location of the garden of eden, which is surrounded by muslims?

And because the dictionarys of men  lable the identification of carnal as to do with sex is the very reason I posted the Strongs defintion. Carnality is the flesh.

dont forget that the ""flesh"' also loves all kinds of religous rituals and rules and regulations.

Col 2:20   Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,  


Col 2:21   (Touch not; taste not; handle not;  


Col 2:22   Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?  


Col 2:23   Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.  



carnal man LOVES to play church, slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, prosperity gospel... ETC ETC.

It seems kind of simple to me. The carnal mind is enmity against God. I take this to mean that when we put our physical, fleshly pleasures above our spiritual needs then we are sinning or missing the mark, which is life more abundantly.

God made man (Adam) with a measure of faith (inner strength) romans 12.3. This faith was overcome by carnality and this was done in perfect accord with Gods plan and desire.

Eve (us) had the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life in full operation within before eating of the tree but it was not sin (enmity against God) until these were given in to.

My  :2c:

cp

Amen to the last two posts.

Flesh and Carnality have been blown completley out of porportion. They aren't powerful biblical themes in the sense they are used today.

The flesh can't hold back anything and carnality is just another tool of people to be told why they haven't recieved fullness.

The flesh was removed and carnality is something we live with, the flesh doesn't control us and carnality doesn't rule us...

But there is a war of sorts on within my being at least.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.gal5.17

cp

Quote from: Dallas on April 22, 2010, 04:40:37 PM
Flesh and Carnality have been blown completley out of porportion. They aren't powerful biblical themes in the sense they are used today.

The flesh can't hold back anything and carnality is just another tool of people to be told why they haven't recieved fullness.

The flesh was removed and carnality is something we live with, the flesh doesn't control us and carnality doesn't rule us...

Sorry Dallas, I see things much differently.  I'll agree that there can be different perspectives on what carnality is.  I don't believe eating food because my body is hungry is what we're talking about at all here so in that sense, I don't see that as giving in to carnal pleasures.  I "do" believe there is a carnal pull that's there constantly and when we walk in the flesh, we're feeding into the carnality.  For me, living in carnality is the opposition of living spiritually.  Living according to my own logic and reasoning is living carnally.  There's no intent to pass condemnation here, but it does explain why depression sets in most when my mind is focussed on "this" realm of life rather than the realm we're all called to walk in, which is the spirit.

As far as Eden goes . . .I've never argued that there isn't an Eden on the earth . . my point was pertaining to the garden "east" of Eden being a spiritual place, not Eden itself.

And lastly, from what I've gathered on the subject of Ararat, it's not a specific mountain, but it's a mountain range which is why no one is really for certain where the ark actually landed.

All of these issues are focusing on natural proofs.  Whether or not we know exactly where Eden is or where Ararat is takes nothing away from the symbolism that they represent in spiritual terms.

Quote from: Syndicated on April 21, 2010, 09:55:12 PM
I have seen this word pop up more and more in threads referring to carnality of man and I am wondering the thoughts behind the use of it.

Webster's defines Carnal as:
1 a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites b : marked by sexuality <carnal love>
2 : bodily, corporeal <seen with carnal eyes>
3 a : temporal <carnal weapons> b : worldly <a carnal mind>

From what I am seeing lately this word is being used to mean 'sinful'.  Though the acts described behind the definition of carnal are seen as sinful by mainstream Christians, I believe that God did NOT create a sinful man.  The bible tells us in Genesis that we have been created in His image.  Seeing as God is not sinful, we were not created to be sinful people.  Sin (and hence death) is the result of the lies of humans believing the serpent in the garden instead of believing the truth of God, not because God created 'Carnal Man'... He created 'Man in HIS image'... pure, righteous and holy... not decietful, evil and selfish (the results of sin).  Do we as humans have sexual urges?  Of course, it's how procreation happens, and we were created to reproduce!  It's when we give in to those desires to elevate us in our own minds to a point to make us feel better about ourselves over and over again instead of realizing the truth of who we were created by and for, that's when it becomes carnal.  But just because we sin doesn't mean that we are carnal beings.

Carnal really has little to do with "bad" or "guilt" it is simply the discriptor for things that are not spiritual.

As Nathan pointed out, it is a carnal thing to need to eat food to sustain the flesh but that is not in and of itself bad. Obesity is a problem because people substitute the pleasure of eating for spiritual gratification.

Spiritual gratification means you know you need to eat and you are content with having to wait for supper and content to only eat what is necessary, even if it's really good.

Quote from: claypot on April 22, 2010, 06:00:54 PM
But there is a war of sorts on within my being at least.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.gal5.17

cp

You failed to include the whole context about that passage...


Gal 5:16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

   17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

   18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

   19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

   20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

   21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

   22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

   23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

   24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

   25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

   26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.


In verse 24, it's not talking about human urges (carnality) to eat and sleep and have sex, it's talking about what was spoken of in verses 19-21, which names the deeds of the flesh... letting sin and selfishness taking over.  It's not carnality being named in those verses.  Aminals are considered carnal so wouldn't that then mean that they would have to deal with those things as well too then?  Or did God give humans a special brand of carnality?

When you say that there's a battle going in in your being, you're talking about spiritual warfare there... it's your spirit having a battle between its own selfishness and pride (flesh, not carnality) and the truth of Jesus Christ speaking AGAINST that selfishness and pride.

Quote from: Syndicated on April 22, 2010, 07:36:52 PM

Quote from: claypot on April 22, 2010, 06:00:54 PM
But there is a war of sorts on within my being at least.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.gal5.17

cp

You failed to include the whole context about that passage...


Gal 5:16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

   17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

   18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

   19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

   20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

   21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

   22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

   23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

   24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

   25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

   26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.


In verse 24, it's not talking about human urges (carnality) to eat and sleep and have sex, it's talking about what was spoken of in verses 19-21, which names the deeds of the flesh... letting sin and selfishness taking over.  It's not carnality being named in those verses.  Aminals are considered carnal so wouldn't that then mean that they would have to deal with those things as well too then?  Or did God give humans a special brand of carnality?

When you say that there's a battle going in in your being, you're talking about spiritual warfare there... it's your spirit having a battle between its own selfishness and pride (flesh, not carnality) and the truth of Jesus Christ speaking AGAINST that selfishness and pride.

I wrote this earlier but maybe you failed to see it.

It seems kind of simple to me. The carnal mind is enmity against God. I take this to mean that when we put our physical, fleshly pleasures above our spiritual needs then we are sinning or missing the mark, the mark being life more abundantly.


I'm saying what you are saying partially anyway. I'm saying that carnal things are not bad in and of themselves, but they become bad when they overshadow our spiritual needs.

I do see where we differ and I wonder if it is really a differing or just using different words to say the same thing. You say flesh and carnality are speaking of different things, I see them pointing to the same thing but I could be wrong.

How are these two things different according to you?

I just looked up carnal in Websters and it said..........Main Entry: car•nal
1 a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites b : marked by sexuality <carnal love>

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


cp

According to Webster (which I had already posted in the oiriginal post, maybe you failed to see that) the #1 explanation is to be focused on bodily pleasures and appeties, which in the society we live in today reads it as... you guessed it, SEX.  Seeing as Webster added 'CRUDE' before the 'bodily pleasures', I decided to look up 'Crude' there as well, see what it had to say...

QuoteMain Entry: 1crude
Pronunciation: \ˈkrüd\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): crud·er; crud·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin crudus raw, crude, undigested — more at raw
Date: 14th century
1 : existing in a natural state and unaltered by cooking or processing <crude oil>
2 archaic : unripe, immature
3 : marked by the primitive, gross, or elemental or by uncultivated simplicity or vulgarity <a crude stereotype>
4 : rough or inexpert in plan or execution <a crude shelter>
5 : lacking a covering, glossing, or concealing element : obvious <crude facts>
6 : tabulated without being broken down into classes <the crude death rate>

synonyms see rude

— crude·ly adverb

— crude·ness noun

#3 says 'marked by the primitive'.  Primitive people most likely weren't worried about sinning.  They were worried about food, shelter, sleeping and mating.  They were mentally (#2) immature.  It's when we make the word 'crude' into it's synonym of 'RUDE' does it change the meaning entirely.

QuoteI do see where we differ and I wonder if it is really a differing or just using different words to say the same thing. You say flesh and carnality are speaking of different things, I see them pointing to the same thing but I could be wrong.

How are these two things different according to you?

Flesh according to the bible is behavior related, not instinctual or primitive.  This is even stated in the verses I posted from Galatians...

Quote19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These are all behaviors in sinful men... all will stop when there is no longer a need to fulfill ones self for emotional comfort once finding the peace and freedom through Christ.  As #5 states in the definition of 'Crude', it is lacking a concealing element, which is opposite of what these bahaviors of the flesh do in us through sin...  they conceal what it is that we don't want to be seen within ourselves.  Take away the deeds of the flesh as described in the bible, and you have no need to hide from anything, only to live open and free in the truth, without shame.  However, a man will not stop eating for sustanance, having the need for sleep, shelter and urges for sex after those behaviors stop.

Flesh equals sin.  Sin does not equal carnal.... therefore flesh cannot equal carnal.

All I know for sure is that it is God who is working in me to do AND to will of His good pleasure. Carnal, fleshly, spiritual, crude, vulgar, polite, cheerful, joyful, nasty and so on are ultimately caused by His working in me. Not saying God is any of these nasty things, just saying because everything that has gone into making me, me, are all out of God.

Some of these threads get so complicated or maybe I should say they get maybe too much into the fine details of things that they possibly become useless. I say 'possibly' because what one (me) may find tedious another may find liberating and of the most use possible so I am not judging, I'm just spouting off.

cp

Amen and Amen

I think it also goes back to what "one" person deems a word to mean may not necessarily be what another person sees that word to mean.  Which takes me back to the idea where emphasizing written word over spiritual truth will always bring different results. 

In the King James, surprisingly, it's only used eleven times.  See if there's any pattern that emerges as you go down the list of passages.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
1Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
1Cr 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Cr 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Cr 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Hbr 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

I'm not really seeing where "sexual" is coming into play in the context of where this word is being used.  Perhaps the translators have again chosen a poor word in place of the original rendition?

Or maybe it's because Websters isn't taking context under consideration in it's rendering of the word?

Strongs puts it this way . . .
1) fleshly, carnal

a) having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites

1) governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God

2) having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature

3) human: with the included idea of depravity

b) pertaining to the flesh

1) to the body: related to birth, linage, etc

Some translations do not even translate "sarkinos" to the word Carnal in the first place but seem to use the KJV use of the word "sarx".

QuoteI think it also goes back to what "one" person deems a word to mean may not necessarily be what another person sees that word to mean.

That's the problem, people invent their own word meaning. There is one meaning based on word usage and context. If I think running means to fight the good fight and someone else thinks it means to slowly think, discussion won't mean anything.... because running doesn't mean either of those, it means to run.

The bible is no different, the words need to remain the words....usless mystisim and ideologies have invaded, distorted and has caused much error.

The origonal words must remain with thier origonal meaning.

I often wonder about Carnal wisdom vs. Spiritual wisdom. 
For example, most people today can see very well that the idea of unending unbearable tortures is cruel and completely nonsense without ever having to pick up a bible.  But someone who actually studies the whole bible and does not just thump a bunch of scriptures out of context will know that is not what the bible teaches. 

We also understand that people respond better to love than fear.  In fact, moreso today people dont really respect the one who uses fear.  Bible teaches perfect love casts out all fear.  Most Fundamentalist Churches teach this fear based theology.

The bible also tells us to avoid such things as dishonesty, thievery, adultery, and murder.  But someone could figure that out on reason alone. 

In the Gospels, Jesus really came down hard on the Institutionalized Church, and really let the holier than thou pharisees have it for their legalistic attitudes.  Yet throughout history, people have always fought against institutional religion, Buddha from the belief in the Caste System, Some Greek Philosopher from the beliefs of Pagan Mythology, Martin Luther, Clement of Alexandria(I think), and not to mention all the people today who are leaving the Institutionalized Churches due to their strict Dogmas and rules. 

On reason alone, we have shown that the bible and human reasoning can coincide.  But it looks like carnal refer to inclinations that are weaknesses to us, but if we thought about them, and live through them, we could see them as bad.
-Love For money
-Desire to please a political, religious or corporate leader.
-Having sex with as many people as possible
-Need to have authority over others
-Desire to get revenge on others
-Racism, sexism, denominationalism, agism.

Everything requires a balance.  Wine is great for the heart.  To much you get drunk and one can't operate responsibly.  Go overboard and it could kill you.  But so can water.  It all has to do with discerning the right balance which really applies to everything.

I see Scripture is no different.  If I merely focus on the natural, I miss the spiritual growth that comes from it.  If I embrace the moral, I can become rigid and unmovable as well.  But if I realize there is a literal manifestation, a moral application, and a spiritual revelation and keep all three in their proper perspectives, the balance of them translates into me experiencing the very promises and decrees the Spirit originally intended.

I don't want to embrace just the literal definition of the word.  The Pharisees did that and look how that turned out.  I don't want to embrace just the moral end of it either because the current church has already been-there-done-that only to have to let go of everything they've embraced, which right now, most are not.  But it's the spiritual that I "do" want to pursue because of many reasons.

One, I believe once I enter into the proper alignment originally established by God where spirit is dominant over moral and natural, then the secondary levels will fall into place without any effort on my part.  Two, I believe that is where we are all called to walk in.  And three, it's the one place where the carnal mind can not pervert because it can't comprehend it.

And since I "have" pursued the spiritual message by way of patterns, types and shadows, and symbolisms, I've yet to find pieces that don't fit.  It all seems to just come together in one fantastic and mystical even, tapestry of love, life and freedom.

Nathan, that is a great way to see things. Man, that's good. Thanks.

cp

Quote from: chuckt on April 22, 2010, 01:55:25 PM
carnal man LOVES to play church, slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, prosperity gospel... ETC ETC.

:cloud9: Hey chuck.......those 2 are not carnal although men will mimic what is real from time to time. If you've never experienced either by the hand of the Spirit, I know it's hard to grasp that He can and does do that, but He does. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 05:24:37 PM

Quote from: chuckt on April 22, 2010, 01:55:25 PM
carnal man LOVES to play church, slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, prosperity gospel... ETC ETC.

:cloud9: Hey chuck.......those 2 are not carnal although men will mimic what is real from time to time. If you've never experienced either by the hand of the Spirit, I know it's hard to grasp that He can and does do that, but He does. Blessings....

ok

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 05:24:37 PM

Quote from: chuckt on April 22, 2010, 01:55:25 PM
carnal man LOVES to play church, slaying in the spirit, holy laughter, prosperity gospel... ETC ETC.

:cloud9: Hey chuck.......those 2 are not carnal although men will mimic what is real from time to time. If you've never experienced either by the hand of the Spirit, I know it's hard to grasp that He can and does do that, but He does. Blessings....

Perhaps, but I have yet to meet anyone that can demonstrate the difference.

 :cloud9: Again, when it happens to you, or thru you, there is NO DOUBT it was the Spirit of God.

In actuality, you can sometimes physically feel the Spirit coming when He does it, and He comes at your forehead. No enemy can stand in His presence, and the carnal mind is His enemy.

You become light as a feather, and usually fall straight back. In your normal state, if you were to try to fall straight back, your instinct is put your behind out and sort of sit down. When you're "slain", you can't do that; you are not in control. And then the peace hits and you don't want to move even if you could.......

This is why when the guards came and asked Him if He was Jesus of Nazareth and He said, "I AM", they fell. The "I AM" aspect of God is the one that brought them out of Egypt (a type of the flesh) with POWER. It is God demonstrating with signs and wonders that His Spirit rules over the flesh at HIS will.

As for the laughter, it's the joy of the Lord in manifestation. When my mother lay in a coma in the hospital dying from cancer, I was broken. A friend that morning knew I was going to see her (the hospital was almost 2 hours away) and the Lord gave  her a dream that as I was praying for my mother, when I touched her feet the joy of the Lord hit me.

It happened exactly as she had seen it in her dream. As soon as I touched her feet, it hit and I laughed with tears coming down my face for 20 minutes. It had hit me before with her, the day we found out she had terminal cancer. I had to pull over, I couldn't even drive and I laughed for a half hour, praying for her. The joy of the Lord IS our strength. Blessings.....

 :cloud9: Also wanted to add, in reference to the definition of carnal.......it has to do with ORIGIN. What spirit is the origin of what is being done or said?

This is one reason why discernment of spirits is given as a gift; to teach us to discern thru His Spirit what the origin of something is.

It's like the nose, telling us what is good to eat, and what is spoiled and not good to eat. Blessings.....

Forgive me cardinal, I do this sometimes in areas where I have a lot of religious persuasion.   I really should be more open to certain terms when it comes to an individuals experiences. 

When I heard the terms I had a lot of images of public spectacles of such things in churches where there is an expectation of how one must appear to have those things happen.  I believe the vast majority of public spectacles in churches are shams and people wanting to fit in and be a part of the moment rather than any real spiritual manifestations.

I believe I have been slain in the spirit based on what I sometimes hear, I just know it had nothing to do with the paralyzing of my physical body.

I have had joyous moments and it had nothing to do with physical laughter, both moments are deeply engrained into my emotions, never needing to be repeated, they are permanent and I am not lacking if I they are never repeated.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 23, 2010, 06:47:40 PM
Forgive me cardinal, I do this sometimes in areas where I have a lot of religious persuasion.   I really should be more open to certain terms when it comes to an individuals experiences. 

When I heard the terms I had a lot of images of public spectacles of such things in churches where there is an expectation of how one must appear to have those things happen.  I believe the vast majority of public spectacles in churches are shams and people wanting to fit in and be a part of the moment rather than any real spiritual manifestations.

I believe I have been slain in the spirit based on what I sometimes hear, I just know it had nothing to do with the paralyzing of my physical body.

I have had joyous moments and it had nothing to do with physical laughter, both moments are deeply engrained into my emotions, never needing to be repeated, they are permanent and I am not lacking if I they are never repeated.

:cloud9: It's not exactly paralyzing, it's hard to describe. At the moment of "impact" you have no awareness whatsoever of anything. The first time it happened to me, about 3 months after my initial salvation experience, I had been led of Him to go to speak to a particular person. It happened that the church (a converted barn) was having a gathering that weekend.

I was in the bathroom changing to be baptized in water, when I heard over the speaker in there, a word of knowledge come for me, from a pastor I had never met. I was taken down to the front where people were lined up being prayed for my this pastor. I saw them fall after he touched them, and I was TERRIFIED. I started crying asking Him in my mind to not let that man touch me, promising I would never return to this la la land, LOL.

When he came to me, he not only didn't touch me, he backed up about 8 feet away from me and told me the Lord said He wants to give you more power if you'll trust Him for it. I was ignoring him until the 4th time he said this, and then to get it over with, I asked the Lord not to let any spirit but His be over me.

Once I agreed, the Lord opened my spiritual eyes and I saw what looked like a comet coming thru the roof from the stars and it "hit" me in the forehead and I was "slain". It was 4 months before it me that I probably seen the "tongues" of fire that fell on the day of Pentecost. A comet's tail is like a "tongue".

I do agree a lot of times it is NOT God making them fall, and it is easy to see when it isn't, and if you've experienced it, you KNOW the difference. It is as them "fornicating under every green tree" mentioned in the OT. When the soul sees where the life (green) was, it will be tempted to mimic it. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 07:16:58 PM

:cloud9: It's not exactly paralyzing, it's hard to describe.

It is impossible for you to describe to me the workings of the spirit in you and vice versa.

I cannot judge that such things have never happen to you, I can judge that if you make a public spactacle of yourself that I do not have to believe it's real.

QuoteI do agree a lot of times it is NOT God making them fall, and it is easy to see when it isn't, and if you've experienced it, you KNOW the difference.

No, this is what church leadership claims in order to judge members sincerity.  You have a public display of such things and the leadership declares God was there, so what, that claim means nothing.   I believe that your experiences are yours and yours alone, the second you try to display them and convince me of what I should do for it to be real, you have proven yours is not.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 23, 2010, 08:00:02 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 07:16:58 PM

:cloud9: It's not exactly paralyzing, it's hard to describe.

It is impossible for you to describe to me the workings of the spirit in you and vice versa.

I cannot judge that such things have never happen to you, I can judge that if you make a public spactacle of yourself that I do not have to believe it's real.

QuoteI do agree a lot of times it is NOT God making them fall, and it is easy to see when it isn't, and if you've experienced it, you KNOW the difference.

No, this is what church leadership claims in order to judge members sincerity.  You have a public display of such things and the leadership declares God was there, so what, that claim means nothing.   I believe that your experiences are yours and yours alone, the second you try to display them and convince me of what I should do for it to be real, you have proven yours is not.

:cloud9: Yes it is impossible to describe to someone else.

I guess then "I" made a "public spectacle" of myself because He saw fit to do it in a church? It's ALL God and HIS timing, we have no control over it.

These things happen for the unbelief IN US to fall, to make us aware that the Spirit is real and can be experienced in a multitude of ways. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 08:19:13 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 23, 2010, 08:00:02 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 07:16:58 PM

:cloud9: It's not exactly paralyzing, it's hard to describe.

It is impossible for you to describe to me the workings of the spirit in you and vice versa.

I cannot judge that such things have never happen to you, I can judge that if you make a public spactacle of yourself that I do not have to believe it's real.

QuoteI do agree a lot of times it is NOT God making them fall, and it is easy to see when it isn't, and if you've experienced it, you KNOW the difference.

No, this is what church leadership claims in order to judge members sincerity.  You have a public display of such things and the leadership declares God was there, so what, that claim means nothing.   I believe that your experiences are yours and yours alone, the second you try to display them and convince me of what I should do for it to be real, you have proven yours is not.

:cloud9: Yes it is impossible to describe to someone else.

I guess then "I" made a "public spectacle" of myself because He saw fit to do it in a church? It's ALL God and HIS timing, we have no control over it.

These things happen for the unbelief IN US to fall, to make us aware that the Spirit is real and can be experienced in a multitude of ways. Blessings....

Where it happens for your personal walk is between you and God.  To assert that I have to believe your display in public because it is declared real is another matter.   

last time i walked into a church and i saw folks rolling around on the ground and speaking gibberish i thought they were mad....

but hey thats  just me....

 :cloud9: So did I until I EXPERIENCED it, as I related above. He uses the foolish things to confound the wise and there is little else as foolish looking as that.  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 09:06:27 PM
:cloud9: So did I until I EXPERIENCED it, as I related above. He uses the foolish things to confound the wise and there is little else as foolish looking as that.  :winkgrin:

nothing personal CARD.

and i have indeed experienced the Holy spirit, its awsome....

just because something looks foolish dont make it of God...just saying.

God is not for confusion IN THE CHURCHES.

but i do agree for everything thats real there is counterfit.

God bless
chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on April 23, 2010, 09:42:46 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 09:06:27 PM
:cloud9: So did I until I EXPERIENCED it, as I related above. He uses the foolish things to confound the wise and there is little else as foolish looking as that.  :winkgrin:

nothing personal CARD.

and i have indeed experienced the Holy spirit, its awsome....

just because something looks foolish dont make it of God...just saying.

God is not for confusion IN THE CHURCHES.

but i do agree for everything thats real there is counterfit.

God bless
chuckt

I agree, trying not to make this personal at all.   I have seen much spiritual abuse from the hands of people who act a certain way, then critique others through that idea of what it "should" look like.   Even though it was a blessing in disguise, I left a church after I heard the leadership deny that a person was saved because they could recognize someone who was "really" speaking in tongues.  In reality they did nothing more than babble themselves. 

The individuals experience is as unique as there are people.   The group mentality in churches causes so much confusion that sincerity cannot be actually recognized in the first place.

 :cloud9: Hi guys.....not offended in the least but thanks for considering.......I'm not being a "cheerleader" for the churches or what goes on in them that is flesh, far from it. Just want to point out that the real thing does exist so that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Blessings....

"Wake up and smell the coffee."

Human frailties   :coffee2:

wake up a drink the coffee :happy3: :happy3: :bgdance:

Quotewake up a drink the coffee

On my second cup of the morning   :bigGrin:


I believe that if God wants to 'slay' someone, it shouldn't matter to that person whether or not he/she looks foolish or silly or rediculous in public.  If God wanted to come upon me and slay me with His spirit in the middle of the mall, He can do just that.  Yes I believe people would judge me for it, but if it's something God wants to pour out on me, it doesn't matter where I am.

I have never had a 'slaying' experience, but last year I had a laughter experience... in the middle of a coffee shop durring a bible study.  I laughed hard for about 20 minutes straight, tears falling, and there was no way I could keep it under control, even though I tried so we could continue with the study.  I didn't feel foolish or silly, I was just overcome with joy, peace and love.  The person I was with was not in the least bit surprised and said that it happened quite often when he taught truth to people and God revealed something to someone.

At the same time, I don't believe that all 'slayings' or fits of laughter or crying is God pouring out His spirit upon people.  I believe some of it can be that that person just wants to believe God would touch them in a spiritual way, almost forcing it to happen.  Some of it can be as simple as someone doesn't want to feel 'left out' of God's pouring out on people, so to show everyone else around them that God would bless them they would put on a show.

Some of it could also be emotional hype...

In the summer of '94 I was doing some inner city work in LA with my youth group as a special missions trip.  One night we were in a small church in Watts (one of the most notorious neighborhoods in LA for violent crime) listening to a couple of ex-cons give their testimonies.  After they were finished, we were sitting around in a circle (about 20-25 of us all together) and we started praying.  Gun shots started going off in the area so we prayed for His hand to keep us safe from any harm.  We started singing after prayer and as if on cue everyone started crying, even the ex-cons... not crying because we were afraid or anything, we all knew that we were safe that night.  I don't know if it was because of the emotions running high in the room or if it was actually God pouring His Spirit upon us.  I would think that if it WAS God it would have been something to change my life entirely from that point instead of going through most of my 20's not wanting anything to do with Him.

I believe that God can't touch a person and NOT leave an everlasting change in their life.

 :cloud9: Thanks for sharing, Syndicated. Yes, you described the "Holy laughter" perfectly. You can't bottle it up. And I agree with you, it shouldn't matter WHERE He touches someone, only that He does.

I was slain in my bedroom reading the Word when I first came to Him when He opened my eyes to the truth hidden in Matt. 13 and realized there was no rapture the way it was being taught.

And the weeping you describe, is called "travail", and it's when the Spirit cries thru you in a type of deep intercession. It's what Jesus was doing when it said He groaned within Himself.

It's to "birth" something in the Spirit to come to pass, usually for someone else, but not always. My guess is that He was having you all intercede for the ones doing the shooting and/or anyone being shot.

There's lot of spiritual things He does as we press in to to know Him. Blessings.....

I know people do get effected by the presence of the Lord in different ways, but I would say 95% of the experiences people have are self-induced.

All the time I spent in church I witnessed and participated in what we declared was God moving amongst us and the slaying and crying and such. I went along for the most part because that'ts what you did, and besides I really wanted it to be true. The truth is, if people are honest with themselves, the amount of "God" moments they have experienced are mostly self-induced desire.

Now the motive isn't an evil motive of wanting God's touch....but there is also motive of "look at me being touched by God."

So, like I said, I know God does touch people and they all react differently, I don't believe there are specific responses. I like Samuel's response...he didn't even know that the voice wasn't beyond anything outside of normal.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was 'without form' and 'void'. So are we, in the beginning. Chaos, mixture, darkness, confusion.

Darkness was on the face of the deep. The eyes of our heart are veiled, we cannot see Jesus "as He is", therefore we cannot be transformed.

The Spirit moves upon the face of the waters. So also the Spirit hovers over us, whispering and waiting until the appointed time.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. When we hear His voice, there is revelation of Jesus, the image of God- In these last days He has spoken to us in His Son. He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature. We are transformed from chaos to form, emptiness to fullness, confusion to wisdom, hate to love, the veil is removed and transformation into the image of Christ begins.




And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)


(Gen 1:3-5) God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. This is the day that the Lord has made, Let us rejoice and be glad in it.



In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void(mixture), and darkness was over the surface of the deep(carnality), and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters(stirring up by way of reminder). Then God said, "Let there be light"(understanding); and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness(discernment).
(Gen 1:1-4)



IMO carnality is essentially chaos. Being "without form and void". Unrenewed men are carnal. Renewed men who walk out their natural resources- full of mixture, babes, as in immature-still under the influence of the flesh and natural mind.

1Co 2:14  the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 3:1  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Co 3:3  For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


Carnality is basically being born of the spirit, but living out of the resources of the natural man. Captive in Babylon, confusion by mixture.

 

Quote from: eagleswayAnd God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
(Gen 1:3-5)

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.




And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

--Gen 1


10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
--Mark 1




3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


--Gen 1



1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

--Malachi 3





Psalm 118:24
This is the day the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.

Some of my experiences of being "slain in the spirit" were different than you described Cardinal.  The first time I had prayed earnestly for Katheryn Kuhlman (sp?) on a matter.  Right after that she came to me in a dream.  I was playing on the piano something that had the title, "A New Song" on the score.  She put her hands on me and power overcame me just at the edge of enough for me to fall to the floor three times, only I didn't fall. It felt something like electric rain and looked something like a shower of sparks descending.  Then, after she walked away from me a bit, she turned and said, "Don't follow me.  Follow Him."

Another time, alone, I just totally lost all strength in myself.  I crumpled to the floor, knowing it was God.  I was yet propped up on my elbow.  Then, as that went too and I was completely helpless, prostrate on the floor, I thought, "How long could this last?" and, "What will my mother say?"  Then, as Paul wrote, "Whether in the body or out of the body, I know not," so I also don't know for sure; but, I think The Word God spoke to me knocked my spirit out out of my body and I was in another higher realm.  It came from behind and was, "Call no man Father."  Notice, there was a displacement in the order of events.  Then I saw someone dressed in a robe with an empire waistline.  He had dark hair and beard.  He had a stern look on his face.  (I am not sure why.)  He traversed a perfect arc, upright and standing still, several feet above me.

I also want to weigh in on the so-called "prosperity gospel."  The bottom line is that you will always have enough to do the will of God.  It's about a lot more than money.  In meetings where certain of God's Words concerning His intentions to prosper us were taught I recognized a mixture of people present.  Some served Mammon and for them God was a means to gain.  This is like about any other true doctrine which the carnal mind can turn into destruction.

God's will is to enlighten, liberate, heal, empower, enrich us.  The opposite is darkness and ignorance, bondage, sickness, weakness, poverty.  If you don't know what is done by an enemy and what is brought to us through the good news of Christ, you will be in confusion and subject to many unnecessary debilitations you could otherwise conquer.  You are destined to be a victor and not a victim.  I know there is a sort of "fine print" to all this.  We can have seasons of testing and tempting.  But, you need to know what God is like and where you are going.

Much of the problem in this discussion about "carnal, carnality" is too many sources for knowledge that are not sorted out.  The dictionary is not the source for Biblical definitions.  Neither is the English translations of Scripture.  We should start in surveying words in the original languages.

There is nothing wrong with having a body. We are born with "carnal" bodies, which is bodies of "meat," of "flesh."  Jesus was inCARNate, which means, He came in the flesh.  That forever sanctifies to us our being born flesh creatures.  But, we are to follow Him, in obedience to God, subjecting our human flesh nature to death, departing that room to go into God, bringing our body with us.  Because of Jesus' "self emptying" (Gk: kenosis) God highly exalted Him.

Philippians 2:5-8 (CLT)...
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

 :cloud9: Good post........ :thumbsup: I only shared one type. I too have been taken to the floor fully awake. He manifests many different ways; the only thing "limiting" Him is our level of fear. Blessings....

   man without understanding is like a beast before Him

   anyone who takes the mark of the beast can not live.

    the theif comes only to kill,steal and destroy, I have come

    that they may have life,and have it to the full

   First the natural man[image of the corruptible/first Adam/sin

and error/as a beast before God/lacking understanding]

  man is as a sheep[lacking understanding] that Christ/Spirit is

the shepherd of.....man is as the colt of a donkey that the spirit

of Christ rides/leads directs

  Man/Adam   the first and the Last

   Lev 27;27

   If a beast so much as touches the mountain...Exodus 19,12,13

   Only when the Ram's horn sounds a long blast may they go up to the mountain...

     1 Cor 15;52 and Rev 11;15...listen,Itell you a mystery,

    WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP,but WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED

   in a flash at the twinkling of an eye,at THE LAST TRUMPET

      for the TRUMPET WILL SOUND, the dead will be raised

   imperishable, AND WE WILL BE CHANGED


   Come let us go UP TO THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD

   to the house of the God of Jacob..HE WILL TEACH US HIS

  WAYS, SO THAT WE MAY WALK IN HIS PATHS


   But they do not know the thoughts of the Lord; they do not

understand His plan, he who gathers them like sheaves to the

threshing floor.


   Isaaih 55;8  for my thoughts are not your thoughts,and

neither are your ways my ways,declares the Lord. As the

heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than

yours,and my thoughts than your thoughts


    'I AM THE TRUE BREAD THAT HAS COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN

  I AM FROM ABOVE YOU ARE FROM BELOW"

 

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

--John 1



Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!