Jeremiah 8:8
New International Version
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
New Living Translation
"'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the LORD," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?
Young's Literal Translation
How do ye say, We are wise, And the law of Jehovah is with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes.
Whoa that's a biggie...
...Rightly divide!
Law written on our hearts...
Letter kills, spirit gives life...
Etc!!!
We're going to have to be careful with this one. The letter kills is primarily speaking of the Law itself, not the whole of scripture, taken in context, accurately translated, Spirit revealed. The Law let people (Paul) know/realize sin; coming to Jesus gives life and can open up His truths to us, including those of the scriptures.
Just one verse thrown out about lying scribes, taken out of context, has caused many a problems and confusion. Some people found much of their view and regard of scriptures on this verse and then proceed to throw out parts of scripture they don't like/understand/agree with, which leads to a slippery slope that we decided a long time ago that we weren't going there at TM any longer.
So if this has some contextual relevance that doesn't generally disparage and cast doubt on the scriptures, and especially if there's any UR relevance, we'll see. But I'll add this for reference:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/
Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2019, 02:16:57 AM
We're going to have to be careful with this one. The letter kills is primarily speaking of the Law itself, not the whole of scripture, taken in context, accurately translated, Spirit revealed. The Law let people (Paul) know/realize sin; coming to Jesus gives life and can open up His truths to us, including those of the scriptures.
Just one verse thrown out about lying scribes, taken out of context, has caused many a problems and confusion. Some people found much of their view and regard of scriptures on this verse and then proceed to throw out parts of scripture they don't like/understand/agree with, which leads to a slippery slope that we decided a long time ago that we weren't going there at TM any longer.
So if this has some contextual relevance that doesn't generally disparage and cast doubt on the scriptures, and especially if there's any UR relevance, we'll see. But I'll add this for reference:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/
Thanks.
Hey I understand, feel free to remove this post at your judgement.
I had never seen that passage before.
...It actually inspired me to be honest...It had the opposite effect on me...Because I knew anyway.
I mean OF COURSE humanity was going to alter the 'facts'.... They do it all throughout human history with everything! People believe they come from a sludge pool in africa or a monkey...So called 'science' won't even permit proper truthful excavations of things connected with ancient human history...All the libraries with our history is gone...Burned to the ground.
OF COURSE they were going to try to disrupt the word of God.
But...the truth can be found, and this website testifies to that...people seeing through the lies of hell etc.
They mistranslate, add bits in, take bits away but the truth cannot be hid beyond finding and we are promised if we seek we shall find.
Thank you.
:)
well, it's obviously a scripture in the Bible, so it's important. I think it would make a good study and that there are probably some specific issues involved - perhaps certain scribes, at certain times, who twisted something around. I knew that scripture was there, and it's come up before, with less than desirable results :o But it has indeed piqued my interest, as I'd like to gain a better understanding of what exactly the context was at the time it was written.
That said, I agree we for sure need to rightly divide/understand/apply. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on February 14, 2019, 02:33:19 AM
:)
well, it's obviously a scripture in the Bible, so it's important. I think it would make a good study and that there are probably some specific issues involved - perhaps certain scribes, at certain times, who twisted something around. I knew that scripture was there, and it's come up before, with less than desirable results :o But it has indeed piqued my interest, as I'd like to gain a better understanding of what exactly the context was at the time it was written.
That said, I agree we for sure need to rightly divide/understand/apply. :thumbsup:
Yes it will be interesting to see if others can shed light on it.
Thank you and thanks for working for the good of all here. I know I'm in the right place.
one think to realize..all men couldn't look upon the arkcontents..just the High Priest.the levites that served at the temple were of
3orderes,maronite/gershonite etc. Though they carried these holy things..they were'veiled'or covered from their eyes
This way Father keeps whole authority over His WORD..reveals it in His time..and to whom He wills.Jesus was found worthy by God to
reveal it[7seals]
and He also appointed the Holy spirit of truth to reveal these things pertaining unto Christ unto us..
while these things were veiled from men...due to not prepared,not time for or whatever...men's imaginations sought to fill in the gaps
of understanding..and of coarse,satan loves quoting what is written,or God said..or did God say[he even attempted it withJesus]
these things have resulted in men not understanding and mis-understanding.also mistranslation errors etc.
BUT everything will be revealed...and nothing veiled will remain hidden.Well,we have found that all men have been hidden in Christ!
He has full authority over His word.And only He can give us His mind on it. That's what I understand about it :girlheart:
Quote from: sheila on February 14, 2019, 03:06:19 AM
one think to realize..all men couldn't look upon the arkcontents..just the High Priest.the levites that served at the temple were of
3orderes,maronite/gershonite etc. Though they carried these holy things..they were'veiled'or covered from their eyes
This way Father keeps whole authority over His WORD..reveals it in His time..and to whom He wills.Jesus was found worthy by God to
reveal it[7seals]
and He also appointed the Holy spirit of truth to reveal these things pertaining unto Christ unto us..
while these things were veiled from men...due to not prepared,not time for or whatever...men's imaginations sought to fill in the gaps
of understanding..and of coarse,satan loves quoting what is written,or God said..or did God say[he even attempted it withJesus]
these things have resulted in men not understanding and mis-understanding.also mistranslation errors etc.
BUT everything will be revealed...and nothing veiled will remain hidden.Well,we have found that all men have been hidden in Christ!
He has full authority over His word.And only He can give us His mind on it. That's what I understand about it :girlheart:
I guess it was all part of God's will that they (scribes) would do what they did anyway. I mean it's not like God didn't see it coming lol!
...." QUOTE: We have found that all men have been hidden in Christ!" :banana: :laughing7:
"Let all men be found to be liars but not God".. um, very poorly paraphrased from faulty memory.. haha.. too lazy/sleepy to look up the verse..
I think Jabcat is likely onto something about certain scribes at a certain time, Jeremiah was prophesying about, via God's Spirit.
I'm curious now though to read the context. I haven't read Jeremiah in like ages..
I also am reminded of how translators seem to love to RUN with verses.. even in the lexicon definitions of words, so often adding 'forever'.. And loved to insert forever all over the place.. in some verses with no time word in them originally at all.. and others where there is time.. leaving out the reference to a space of time altogether..!
But I totally agree that doesn't nullify God"s Word.. and those are basically, all I've found as far as the tampering with His word.. humans used to extra biblical beliefs of the world, mis perceiving due to those beliefs when they translated.. but the fallen principalities using, even engineering it?
And God allowing it, will use it for good..
I can see that the bible was 'coded'. :declare:
...Parables, hyperbole, symbolism etc to 'keep' the message intact (to the spiritual person). :iagree:
Jesus spoke 'so they would not hear' (parables). :dunno2:
God 'hid' things and it's our glory to seek it. :winkgrin:
The scribes would have looked through the scriptures and saw bits they couldn't understand and passed them by (and approved them (without altering them)); probably considering them nonsense because they couldn't grasp what it was about and in this way God was preserving His word, keeping it hidden from evil but revealing it to His chosen.
...I used to think the same way as those scribes. I still do at times... But now I see that their evil minds would have seen so-called 'bad bits in the bible' (bits about stoning people or where God seemed unjust or unloving etc) and probably those parts appealed to their wicked minds so they readily approved them...But there was a deeper message under those things...A loving message which only the spiritual person can see.
...What do you guys think of this? Am I on the right track or waffling? :punish:
I still don't understand much of the bible myself...Pretty much just enough to now realize that it was coded for preservations' sake. - :mock: It is obvious when one sees how parables and symbolic language etc was used and how God hides things...It spells it out for us.
...To understand it better is an invite to become more spiritual so we can 'see it clearer'. :Peace2:
yep......I was shown His Word and revelation like this....a really big scripture jigsaw puzzle...with 1000's pieces..given over
time.when properly set in order by HIM...we can see the beautiful big picture.
Isaaih 29;11Iremember aroun20 years ago..trying to read and understand...and it hit me..if Ilived 1000 years twice over
I would not know what He meant unless He told me.
there are 'code' words in it,too. :2c:
Quote from: sheila on February 14, 2019, 04:08:32 PM
yep......I was shown His Word and revelation like this....a really big scripture jigsaw puzzle...with 1000's pieces..given over
time.when properly set in order by HIM...we can see the beautiful big picture.
Isaaih 29;11Iremember aroun20 years ago..trying to read and understand...and it hit me..if Ilived 1000 years twice over
I would not know what He meant unless He told me.
there are 'code' words in it,too. :2c:
Ah yes, the code words!
I'm still in infancy but I can spot one or two.
Quote from: sheila on February 14, 2019, 03:06:19 AM
one think to realize..all men couldn't look upon the arkcontents..just the High Priest.the levites that served at the temple were of
3orderes,maronite/gershonite etc. Though they carried these holy things..they were'veiled'or covered from their eyes
This way Father keeps whole authority over His WORD..reveals it in His time..and to whom He wills.Jesus was found worthy by God to
reveal it[7seals]
and He also appointed the Holy spirit of truth to reveal these things pertaining unto Christ unto us..
while these things were veiled from men...due to not prepared,not time for or whatever...men's imaginations sought to fill in the gaps
of understanding..and of coarse,satan loves quoting what is written,or God said..or did God say[he even attempted it withJesus]
these things have resulted in men not understanding and mis-understanding.also mistranslation errors etc.
BUT everything will be revealed...and nothing veiled will remain hidden.Well,we have found that all men have been hidden in Christ!
He has full authority over His word.And only He can give us His mind on it. That's what I understand about it :girlheart:
A- men!! ..that was awesome! I also agree so much with what you said about the jigsaw puzzle and big picture..
"men's imaginations filled in the gaps" (of their understanding) - so true! And a great line..
Quote from: inspirationmoment101 on February 14, 2019, 02:32:57 PM
I can see that the bible was 'coded'. :declare:
...Parables, hyperbole, symbolism etc to 'keep' the message intact (to the spiritual person). :iagree:
Jesus spoke 'so they would not hear' (parables). :dunno2:
God 'hid' things and it's our glory to seek it. :winkgrin:
The scribes would have looked through the scriptures and saw bits they couldn't understand and passed them by (and approved them (without altering them)); probably considering them nonsense because they couldn't grasp what it was about and8 in this way God was preserving His word, keeping it hidden from evil but revealing it to His chosen.
...I used to think the same way as those scribes. I still do at times... But now I see that their evil minds would have seen so-called 'bad bits in the bible' (bits about stoning people or where God seemed unjust or unloving etc) and probably those parts appealed to their wicked minds so they readily approved them...But there was a deeper message under those things...A loving message which only the spiritual person can see.
...What do you guys think of this? Am I on the right track or waffling? :punish:
I still don't understand much of the bible myself...Pretty much just enough to now realize that it was coded for preservations' sake. - :mock: It is obvious when one sees how parables and symbolic language etc was used and how God hides things...It spells it out for us.
...To understand it better is an invite to become more spiritual so we can 'see it clearer'. :Peace2:
Great post! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
It's amazing how it's really a simple, even down to Earth message.. yet it is also high and lofty and of many great depths.. From Genesis, beginning, to the 'end', new Genesis! Life has its hardships, but it's also quite rich and awesome too. We can't escape the fact that (imo, anyway) that something is being proven here! Something important. That's why there's some things in life and in the Bible I suppose we wish weren't there. So we either don't want to think about it, or we want to change what it it says.
And we're not supposed to do that. Be a false pen..
Why, for instance, in the laws of Israel was there stonings? The world accuses God about such things.
But it was not expected of the world, but Israel was chosen to be a place somewhat prepared for birthing Messiah. And they
will be rewarded..
Also God is going to resurrect everyone and also reconcile everyone. Even the worst of the worst. The world judges God over His judging Canaan. But do they know what horrible horror Canaan was practicing? And the flood where all thoughts were evil, what result for the world if He'd not interfered.. And they too will be resurrected and reconciled.
But then there's also this I think the world and people misunderstand, Genesis talks of God pronouncing curses.. the example I think of is what He said about woman. Was He saying as a curse, I will cause man to dominate you.. or was He simply saying what was going to happen.. bound to happen. Being now imperfect, and man has more strength than woman, man will dominate.. (Until Christ planted seeds of equality. "In Christ there is not free, nor debtor, male nor female.. but all are one in Christ Jesus".)
When God told Moses, tell the people not to approach the mountain lest I break forth and consume them.. it wasn't lest I get angry and lose control and destroy them :faint: :laughing7: ..but He is a consuming fire.. mortality can't abide it. Purity consumes impurity.
I agree with Sheila, man's lack of understanding causes a lot of trouble!
I don't know if you know it or not, but in the Book of Acts, chapter ,,7, Stephen.. before he's stoned.. gives an excellent short history of Israel from the call of Abraham to Solomon - For good bible study, not good, I don't think to start in the old testament.. but an outline more or less is good..
More trivia that I always found helpful is a little trick to remember the order if the books of the new testament.. which you may not need.. but I sure did! Of course it's the gospel s, then the Acts of the Apostles snd the first churches, which I'm sure you know, of course.. then Romans, known as the gospel legality book, seems logical to be next.. the the 2 letters to the Corinthians..
Then comes the trivia, the next books follow the pattern of this phrase, " general electric power company" - is thus well known? Idk.
Galatians Ephesians Philippians Colossians (shorter letters than Romans,)
Then comes the three crosses! The 3 T's. I only mention all this because I think it's so cool. And now I'm on a roll, and you probably know all this!
The t's, the 2 Thessalonians letters, 2 letters to Timothy and one to Titus. Then, after the tiny letter to Philomon, is the spiritual legality book of Hebrews, longer like Romans.
Then there's the letters from 4 men, James, 2 Peters, 1,2 and 3 John, and Jude. Then is Revelation.
I like to read the letters annually however in the order believed to have been written..as accurately as I know, anyway. I made myself a schedule to read the gospels as blended into two 6 months readings. I did one first with all four gospels blended.. with details in order (I hope) but it was too repetitive.. I read Acts and revelation over the year in weekly readings. Psalms is a great book to read!! So I read those by the month, 1-20 is January; 20's is February; March, the 30's; April. 40's and do on until December which is 120-150.. shorter psalms so perfect!
I avoided much comentary for quite a while, except for background, date and setting of a book or letter.. but as far as commentary about what it means, I avoided until I felt well enough acquainted with the Bible to know if a commentary was accurate or not!
Right now in my reading of Revelation, slow reading as it's weekly readings over the year, now i'm reading the commentaries for each verse listed on biblehub.com. But like I said, I feel I know the book pretty well first before reading men's opinions..
Daniel and the other prophets are good to have some guidance with however (study Bible, etc). I think it's good to read these books in the order they were written too.
:blah: :trampoline:
Yes coded !!!, a new name and white new stone , hidden manna , angels food etc........
Wonderful treasures of the heart , God given, all the good gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT poured out on all flesh , that no man /flesh and blood can take from you .......
Ask and it shall be given !! Matt 7 Do Not Judge
(Luke 6:37-42; Romans 14:1-12)
1Do not judge, or you will be judged.
2For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?
4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' while there is still a beam in your own eye?
5You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6Do not give dogs what is holy;
do not throw your pearls before swine.
If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Ask, Seek, Knock
(Luke 11:5-13)
7Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
12In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.
entering the narrow Gate that leads to life everlasting ...
Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the
I know Jesus said to as they say , just no not do as they DO!!
The Fulfillment of the Law Matt 5
...19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven;
but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. :dsunny:
20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
21You have heard that it was said to the ancients, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'...
I believe the lying pen of the scribes represents the wise and prudent , you MUST COME AS A LITTLE CHILD[innocent ] , TO BE taught of HOLY SPIRIT and entering the kingdom of heaven though the cross of Jesus Christ blood shed the innocent for the guilty .. and a child must be trained by the Holy Spirit to become a man and put away the childish things ..
Judah's Sin and Punishment
...7Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons.
The turtledove, the swift, and the thrush observe their time of migration, but My people do not know the requirements of the LORD. 8How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?'
But in fact, the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception. 9The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and snared. They have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom do they really have?...
Romans 1:22
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools,
Job 5:12
He thwarts the schemes of the crafty, so that their hands find no success.
Job 5:13
He catches the wise in their craftiness, and sweeps away the plans of the cunning.
Jeremiah 4:22
"For My people are fools; they have not known Me. They are foolish children, without understanding. They are skilled in doing evil, but they do not know how to do good."
Jeremiah 18:18
Then some said, "Come, let us make plans against Jeremiah, for the law will never be lost to the priest, or counsel to the wise, or an oracle to the prophet. Come, let us denounce him and pay no heed to any of his words."
Jeremiah 19:7
And in this place I will ruin the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, by the hands of those who seek their lives, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.
for me it is just as PAUL , being the chief of sinners and a murderer , had to come to the end of Himself!!! his leaning on his own understanding come to naught , the vanity of youth of being wise in his own eyes , it was time to remove the beam of blindness out of his own eyes , causing the scripture to come to pass , I will cause the blind to see and the see be made blind ... John 9 Spiritual Blindness
...38"Lord, I believe," he said. And he worshiped Jesus. 39Then Jesus declared, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind."
When He met Jesus on the road to DAMASCUS[sack full of blood ] the similitude [a comparison between two things the quality or state of being similar to something.] of burning
between the two laws to me , tree of knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life
Jesus comes to us in the same manner , Paul suffered as a murderer , your sins have reached heaven , poor in spirit , blind by your own wisdom and naked , needing to be clothed with the blood of Jesus Christ and hidden under the righteousness of Christ sacrifice .
His captivity to sin being Baylon and a slave to sin in error had come to Christ a new and living way and would suffer in the same way under the new name the Lord Jesus Christ He had become captive too and a slave to Christ
1.
a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
synonyms: bondsman, bondswoman, bondservant, bondslave, serf, vassal, thrall
1.
work excessively hard.
to earn the heir of sonship ..... scriptures Gal 4 Sons and Heirs
1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he is the owner of everything. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the date set by his father.... when I was a child 1 Cor 13 Love
...10but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away.
11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child,
I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. 12Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known....
Babylon is Fallen
...4Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, My people, so that you will not share in her sins or contract any of her plagues.
5For her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6Give back to her as she has done to others; pay her back double for what she has done; mix her a double portion in her own cup....
I believe the seals are opened and the vials are being poured out on HER now ..... the great whore of the earth and her daughters , the unfaithful woman , not to be joined with her , but to be joined with Christ Body the true church and
virgin woman to receive the new SEED / WORD OF LIFE .. She is justified of Her children offspring making trees of Life flourish to Gods glory [ 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins with oil / Holy Spirit and those lacking the Holy oil...
all the scriptures come together and fit perfectly when they begin to add up and the Sum is Truth ....
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :icon_flower:
QuoteThe turtledove, the swift, and the thrush observe their time of migration, but My people do not know the requirements of the LORD. 8How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us?'
But in fact, the lying pen of the scribes has produced a deception. 9The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and snared. They have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom do they really have?...
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. :dsunny: