When people talk about the Bible as the Word of God, you would think they would take the time to really study it, to dig for the treasure hidden within and to see the beauty of the Lord and understand His grand plan, but mostly they don't :o)
In Romans Paul goes to great lenghts to explain how both the kindness and severity of God work together to bring about His purposes. I've written on this a few times so there is some repititon here but it is still coming clear and clearer for me... so maybe someone will reap a benefit from this. It is just a further look at the real Roman's Road. Why God judges and how His mercy is working within His corrections.
There are contrasts and connections in Romans 1-11, in terms of mercy, judgment, correction and eventual reconciliation.... in relationship to those who fall short for various reasons and are "cut off". Self-righteousness and judgmentalism are named pre-eminently with the sins of carnality as reasons for the failure of those who are cut-off.... but they are corrected so that they may learn humility again and be redeemed. In the progression that begins in Roman's 1 and culminates in Roman's 11, Paul applies the principles of judgement to all men equally first, then he focuses on Israel's failings, then he speaks of God's ultimate love for them and aims some warnings at the Gentile believers...then clearly declaring even that God will save all Israel, and indeed, all men.
Rom 1
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.......
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Rom 2
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.....
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Rom 9
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly." 29 And just as Isaiah foretold,
"Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah."
Rom 10
Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the [a]end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
But as for Israel He says, "All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."
Rom 11
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery(See Eph 1:9-11)—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
27 "This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Anyone would have to believe Paul a split personality to read all that he has written in Romans and Galatians, but then differentiate between Israel as enemies for the gospel sake while yet beloved for the forefathers sake, and insist that they will all be saved after the fulness of theGentiles come in- if judgment is not for correction, remediation and redemption. All through out Romans beginning in chptr 1 Paul is drawing distinctions between the knowledge of God and willing indifference or opposition Israel has displayed to Messiah and the Law of God that is written on the hearts of all men, as well as the law of Moses and the words of the prophets...
But Paul finishes it all with the declaration that all Israel will be saved, that indeed God has shut up all mankind in disobedience, in order to have mercy on all.....so that no one can boast, but all give glory to God for His mercy....
and even as he said earlier in Romans 8
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now
And finishes the matter by revealing the goal of it all with the great benediction in Romans 11, in which Paul essentially challenges anyone who thinks that the breadth of such a plan is just to huge to be believed.... to reconsider.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
The Roman's Road leads to a greater destination than anyone fully understands.
God has indeed left a posterity, a remnant, and on this, in a sick way, Calvinists and Arminians agree- only the few will be saved, but... the purpose of the stump is not to give an eternal thumbed nose to all the burning tormented rebels of the ages, it is for the grafting in again of the whole creation, Jew and Gentile, each in their own order till God becomes all in all.
In 1 Cor 15 Paul makes it absolutely clear why Jesus is reigning and what His subjecting of all things means- that God will be all in all, even in those who have been His enemies.....
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
After all, we were once all His enemies as well....
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
* 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
Isn't this highlighting true equality for mankind through one mediator?
Paul talks of that as the true circumcision in Phillipians 3.
Cutting away the flesh and personal efforts so as to fully appreciate the position as sons of God in Christ.
Quote from: Ross on October 20, 2015, 04:49:46 AM
* 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."
Isn't this highlighting true equality for mankind through one mediator?
Interesting, I was thinking about that today. I'm seeing it as the Provision made/put in place, to be completely realized in due time;
"But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power....'
and this :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 20, 2015, 04:28:00 AM
..they will all be saved after the fulness of theGentiles come in- if judgment is not for correction, remediation and redemption. .. Paul finishes it all with the declaration that all Israel will be saved, that indeed God has shut up all mankind in disobedience, in order to have mercy on all.....so that no one can boast, but all give glory to God for His mercy....
The Roman's Road leads to a greater destination than anyone fully understands... it is for the grafting in again of the whole creation, Jew and Gentile, each in their own order till God becomes all in all.
Yes, Jabcat, that's how I see it. Paul is pretty clear that these conditions are all shifting back and forth according to the purpose of God through the ages. A partial hardening has come upon Israel. It will not be lifted until the fulness of the Gentiles come in, then over the following times all Israel will be saved.... perhaps some in the age to come. Perhaps some at the Great White Throne, we are not really given the details. At the same time, Gentiles who have been grafted in, can be cut off for arrogance, and likewise should they repent, be grafted back in again. But the stump is rooted in Abraham, the father of faith, who was justified before he was circumsized, and his seed is named in Isaac(Christ) the offspring of his faith.
The provision is made and the propitiation is already made, as each heart is circumsized(as Paul says the true Jews are Jews in spirit and circumsized in their hearts.
All have been disobedient. All must know repentence and faith to receive the gracious provision of reconciliation and restoration, each in their own order. Every knee shall bow.
But my main point was to show HOW CLEARLY Paul explains the aionian purpose of God's dealings with Israel, to the end that their discipline was and is CORRECTIONAL, REMEDIAL and limited to a CERTIAN DURATION to accomplish GOD"S AIONIAN PURPOSE of restoration. Also that God ties their rejection DIRECTLY to their RECOVERY and also to the CONDITION OF ALL MEN and all of creation. To me, there is no clearer example of the fact that God's anger is overwhelmed by His wisdom and His love and that His original purpose never changes.... He will recover all, for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
Otherwise, Romans makes no sense at all, and neither does Paul. All of the primary controversies about Jew and Gentile, church and nation, priesthood and sonship find resolution in the big schematic of God's purpose to save all.
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
It is all elements of the same mystery, and it is just sooooo awesome.
" It is all elements of the same mystery, and it is just sooooo awesome."
Literally mind-blowing stuff.
Trying to grasp the precision of the plan is staggering.
The fact that the mystery which had been hidden till the revelation through Paul, to me, again is another highlight of the plan,
- coming to fruition through Christ,
- planned before the world began,
- Declaring the love of our Father which goes beyond our current knowledge[ Eph 3;19],
- creating true equality of value being of one family,
- removing all fear,
- emphasizing what real love means,
- WOW!!!!!
Great thread :dsunny:
The picture of God as the Great Arborist resolves much seeming conflict or tensions among scriptures. He does what is good for the tree to make it grow, whether it be removal or re-grafting, and what is good for the tree is what is good for the individual, which is why "nothing unclean may enter." The purpose of the cutting away strengthens the tree but also makes the rejected branches remember the value of being grafted in, and thus they repent and the tree is made complete.
The very image of growth and pruning shows God's interest not just in the result but in the process.
Amen!!!
A real established tree can also stand and be healthy whilst there is no apparent surface water in sight.
Holds strong in all sorts of conditions. Is a shelter to all sorts of animals. Provides shade from the scorching sun. Protects from strong winds. Recovers after a fire has just cleared out the dead wood.
Nature talks loudly about complete confidence in our Father. Yet is still groaning ready for the coming changes.
Pretty glorious really.
"Romans" I think, more than any other book of the Bible, makes me realize and ponder - "What am I being saved from?" I am being saved from myself! I am the beast. I am the harlot. After all, from where do those things come forth? From mankind.. The works of mankind.. I am being saved from myself, and every imperfect potential.. Ultimately, from imperfection, the opposite of life. For surely(?) He is life and also perfection. Imperfection cannot endure. Imo, I am being saved from annihilation, the wages (result) of being imperfect. And there's only one source of perfection (/goodness).
:smile: Great thread!
I named my son Roman partially because I was reading Romans while pregnant and it really spoke to me. That was before I was UR, now I love it even more so.
All of these things happening around us seem to be specifically occurring so as to define real love.
1 Cor 13 is specific- and ends with the statement that the greatest of these is love.
The law only acts as a boundary whilst we learn about true love.
God displays love with the fact that Christ died for us while we were sinners. Christ demonstrated love.
Romans explains all that.
Corinthians expands on that.
Galations, Ephesians, Philipians, Colossians all elaborate on that and say why this all happened.
Since this happens for ALL mankind, the lessons need to be clear.
We have that displayed by the education process to help people know what life is all about.
God actually runs the whole program to a plan which exceeds our current abilities.
Christ states that we should come to Him as little children.
That amplifies the true compassion and love He has for us.
Paul repeats that we should focus on the things to come as outweighing our current life.
Intangible to the eye.
Incredible to the spirit.
Infallible in every way.
Inspiring to press on.
Uplifting for immeasurable peace.
Way beyond comparison for success.
Perfect love casts out all fear.
Our one teacher explains this to us as we grow in grace and knowledge.
May He open our hearts even more as this data becomes etched firmly in our life.
Quote from: Ross on October 23, 2015, 06:02:16 AM
All of these things happening around us seem to be specifically occurring so as to define real love.
1 Cor 13 is specific- and ends with the statement that the greatest of these is love.
The law only acts as a boundary whilst we learn about true love.
God displays love with the fact that Christ died for us while we were sinners. Christ demonstrated love.
Romans explains all that.
Corinthians expands on that.
Galations, Ephesians, Philipians, Colossians all elaborate on that and say why this all happened.
Since this happens for ALL mankind, the lessons need to be clear.
We have that displayed by the education process to help people know what life is all about.
God actually runs the whole program to a plan which exceeds our current abilities.
Christ states that we should come to Him as little children.
That amplifies the true compassion and love He has for us.
Paul repeats that we should focus on the things to come as outweighing our current life.
Intangible to the eye.
Incredible to the spirit.
Infallible in every way.
Inspiring to press on.
Uplifting for immeasurable peace.
Way beyond comparison for success.
Perfect love casts out all fear.
Our one teacher explains this to us as we grow in grace and knowledge.
May He open our hearts even more as this data becomes etched firmly in our life.
Very nice post Ross. Thanks
Beautiful Ross.
He has the whole world in His hands. :Whistle:
Quote from: Ross on October 23, 2015, 06:02:16 AM
..as this data becomes etched firmly...
Love that phrase! To me it really hits the mark! He's writing on our hearts and minds..
:banana: :dsunny: :thumbsup: