The Last Enemy

[jabcat]

[amended]

You know how you've heard something a thousand times and you just assumed you "had it", you knew what it meant?  The other day something hit me about the "the last enemy to be destroyed is death".   Since that's true, how could there be eternal torment, or anything evil at all after death?  Wouldn't torture be an enemy, that was "the last"? 

Since the scrips say "the least enemy is death",  wouldn't that mean that anything that happened after death - even if something painful such as correction/discipline - couldn't be an enemy [such as tortured forever]?  Rather, wouldn't it be something helpful and transformative?  It will be God that's administering justice and correction, and He's certainly not our enemy.

[Lazarus Short]

Jabcat, I have asked the question several times on at least one www forum:  after death has been cast into the Lake of Fire, how can anyone be dead and in Hell after that?  I have yet to get an answer, but perhaps I have set some minds to thinking...

[jabcat]

It's a good question, and I too like those little questions, to get people thinking as you say - "outside their ususal box".

[Seer After Truth]

Greetings,

I have not posted much, as I have time to view threads, but I never have enough time to truly participate much.  However, this particular question is one of the most important to me in understanding Christian Universalism(CU).

I have now had about five and a half months to study CU and I am at to the point in which, even though it is still relatively new, I am able to draw some "conclusions" and axioms/logical thought processes that allow me to discuss things a little bit.

The book "Outcome of Infinite Grace" by Loyal Hurley has become one of my favorites of all time (albeit one of the shortest at around 60 pages!).  It first starts with his realization of the exact phrase you started with above. 
So when I read his booklet here at the tentmakers site it really impacted me.

Since then, I have thought of that phrase much so I will briefly lay out some of the results of my contemplation:

First of all, well before I became of this mind, this article on Ancestral Sin by an Eastern Orthodox practitioner really hit home with me.  I posted it on my small blog here:
http://smalltowndisciples.blogspot.com/2011/08/excellent-article-on-ancestral-sin.html

In it, the author discussed how in the Garden of Eden, God put Adam and Eve outside the garden after sinning as an act of mercy because He prevented them from eating of the tree of life, which would have resulted in them becoming immortal in sin.  So now at this point with CU, if death is going to be eliminated then it would mean if there was eternal torment, God would have to resurrect the "damned" into immortal sin, which cannot be if sin and death are eliminated.

Also, since the elimination of death is probably at the time of the consummation of all things in which God becomes all in all, then all things that are going to exist in God as all in all, whatever that might look like, are going to be immortal (including Satan) but immortal in the righteousness of God where God has completed what He all along intended.

The other factor that I have thought much of is the idea that sin was an inevitability in terms of God's creation as the axiom "Anything God creates is by definition or nature less than God" would mean that the ability to sin, that is the ability to miss the mark and not be complete was built into creation as only God is complete and lacking in nothing.  And God would have known all along what He was doing and not surprised and even in some sense intended things to be as they are as we have to learn the difference between good and evil to learn how to be with God.  So the elimination of Death would be preceded by the elimination of sin.

Sorry for the fact I can ramble, but hopefully that makes sense.  I am going to now begin to look at Revelations and some on the lake of fire to see how that also relates to this statement!

Peace,

Seer After Truth

[marie glen]

In it, the author discussed how in the Garden of Eden, God put Adam and Eve outside the garden after sinning as an act of mercy because He prevented them from eating of the tree of life, which would have resulted in them becoming immortal in sin.

wow! that's awesome.. I don't know as I've ever thought that out fully.. like that.. Obviously true! :gsmile:

  So now at this point with CU, if death is going to be eliminated then it would mean if there was eternal torment, God would have to resurrect the "damned" into immortal sin, which cannot be if sin and death are eliminated.

     :thumbsup:

Also, since the elimination of death is probably at the time of the consummation of all things in which God becomes all in all, then all things that are going to exist in God as all in all, whatever that might look like, are going to be immortal (including Satan) but immortal in the righteousness of God where God has completed what He all along intended.

Amen! ...I had to pause here and think.. it's Revelation 20, verse 10, I was thinking about.. which the thought has niggled at me before.. Verse 10 "the devil who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and false prophet are" (but! these last two, neither one of these is a breathing, alive creature, one is a world body of governing and the other is a false teaching which turned western civilization on its ear, imo that is) "where they will be tormented day and night for into or unto the aion of the aions."

What I have thought is that after this casting into the lake, is verse 11 "then I saw a Great White Throne" ...which to me is another "aion"/age.. (during which the devil and his angels has been in the cleansing LOF).

Then there's also Revelation 21:1 .."a new heavens and a new earth.." which is when I would think ALL things are made new..   

The other factor that I have thought much of is the idea that sin was an inevitability in terms of God's creation as the axiom "Anything God creates is by definition or nature less than God" would mean that the ability to sin, that is the ability to miss the mark and not be complete was built into creation as only God is complete and lacking in nothing.  And God would have known all along what He was doing and not surprised and even in some sense intended things to be as they are as we have to learn the difference between good and evil to learn how to be with God.  So the elimination of Death would be preceded by the elimination of sin.

I think of it as God having two choices, to create rational/thinking creatures.. or not.. ever. :gsmile:
Why did God wait so (very) long, and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the 1st bound to occur rebel thought occurred, but it had ripened into outright stealth, deception and sedition? Didn't He know what would happen? RofL, of course He did! :ghaha:
Surely it's so all would take this unavoidable journey, and lesson, together, once for all eternity..

Because He endowed thinking ability which of course, sooner or later, includes choice, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be'.. And now, all suffer.. some even horribly.. yet He, who is Life itself (surely?) lives through, experiences, and suffers it all! Why would He put Himself through all this?
- perhaps ..because He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but His very own family, and an un-breakable paradise.. un-breakable because the full knowing of good from evil (which is also life from death and true from untrue) will be deeply, ever so deeply, engraved upon every heart,mind and psyche.. "I love to do thy will O God!" will be utterly true. :dsunny: And all will fully know that you just cannot stray from God/Life/Perfection, for to do so is to become im-perfect, the opposite of life, and to end in a mere self destructive puff of smoke (imo, the important lesson of this life/apocalypse to "all").

I loved your post and thoughts! :)
peace and blessings!
marie

[mplsfitter539]

Greetings,

I have not posted much, as I have time to view threads, but I never have enough time to truly participate much.  However, this particular question is one of the most important to me in understanding Christian Universalism(CU).

I have now had about five and a half months to study CU and I am at to the point in which, even though it is still relatively new, I am able to draw some "conclusions" and axioms/logical thought processes that allow me to discuss things a little bit.

The book "Outcome of Infinite Grace" by Loyal Hurley has become one of my favorites of all time (albeit one of the shortest at around 60 pages!).  It first starts with his realization of the exact phrase you started with above. 
So when I read his booklet here at the tentmakers site it really impacted me.

Since then, I have thought of that phrase much so I will briefly lay out some of the results of my contemplation:

First of all, well before I became of this mind, this article on Ancestral Sin by an Eastern Orthodox practitioner really hit home with me.  I posted it on my small blog here:
http://smalltowndisciples.blogspot.com/2011/08/excellent-article-on-ancestral-sin.html

In it, the author discussed how in the Garden of Eden, God put Adam and Eve outside the garden after sinning as an act of mercy because He prevented them from eating of the tree of life, which would have resulted in them becoming immortal in sin.  So now at this point with CU, if death is going to be eliminated then it would mean if there was eternal torment, God would have to resurrect the "damned" into immortal sin, which cannot be if sin and death are eliminated.

Also, since the elimination of death is probably at the time of the consummation of all things in which God becomes all in all, then all things that are going to exist in God as all in all, whatever that might look like, are going to be immortal (including Satan) but immortal in the righteousness of God where God has completed what He all along intended.

The other factor that I have thought much of is the idea that sin was an inevitability in terms of God's creation as the axiom "Anything God creates is by definition or nature less than God" would mean that the ability to sin, that is the ability to miss the mark and not be complete was built into creation as only God is complete and lacking in nothing.  And God would have known all along what He was doing and not surprised and even in some sense intended things to be as they are as we have to learn the difference between good and evil to learn how to be with God.  So the elimination of Death would be preceded by the elimination of sin.

Sorry for the fact I can ramble, but hopefully that makes sense.  I am going to now begin to look at Revelations and some on the lake of fire to see how that also relates to this statement!

Peace,

Seer After Truth

Christianity is a religion. Most here refer to what we believe as Universal Restoration (UR). You are welcome to call it whatever you like but please don't call me a Christian. That religion will be abolished with all the other bogus religions. Jesus was not a Christian.  :banana:

[Lazarus Short]

Christianity is a religion. Most here refer to what we believe as Universal Restoration (UR). You are welcome to call it whatever you like but please don't call me a Christian. That religion will be abolished with all the other bogus religions. Jesus was not a Christian.  :banana:

That's a bold way to put it, but I know where you are coming from.  In a church I attended many years ago, members would be sometimes accused of having a "spirit of religion."  I only call myself a Christian because I try to follow the Christ.

[rosered]

Christianity is a religion. Most here refer to what we believe as Universal Restoration (UR). You are welcome to call it whatever you like but please don't call me a Christian. That religion will be abolished with all the other bogus religions. Jesus was not a Christian.  :banana:

That's a bold way to put it, but I know where you are coming from.  In a church I attended many years ago, members would be sometimes accused of having a "spirit of religion."  I only call myself a Christian because I try to follow the Christ.

I see being called a true Christian by the Lord Jesus  Christ an Honor !  man has perverted and marred   the Truth / aka Jesus Christ beyond recognizing  Him , 
Isaiah   states this as prophecy !

Jesus Christ is not a mortal man , but  Everything  HOLY righteous and True !


Isa 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man,


and his form more than the sons of men


So shall he sprinkle many nations;

the kings shall shut their mouths at him:

for [that] which had not been told them shall they see;

and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider. 

marred ) disfigurement (of face), corruption


visage
1) sight, appearance, vision

a) sight, phenomenon, spectacle, appearance, vision

b) what is seen

c) a vision (supernatural)

d) sight, vision (power of seeing)

form
1) shape, form, outline, figure, appearance





 
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

[mplsfitter539]

Christianity is a religion. Most here refer to what we believe as Universal Restoration (UR). You are welcome to call it whatever you like but please don't call me a Christian. That religion will be abolished with all the other bogus religions. Jesus was not a Christian.  :banana:

 
Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Interesting that the version you use says Christians but the Hebrew Roots bible calls them Kristyane. Good ole King James and his translation boys have it wrong once again.

[shawn]

If death is conquered how can the second death be forever?--I agree.


As to answer the OP with traditional thinking...well people are not dead, they are either alive in heaven or alive in hell...which is problematic since the lake of fire is referred to as the second death.

[jbertonbounds]

Christianity is a religion. Most here refer to what we believe as Universal Restoration (UR). You are welcome to call it whatever you like but please don't call me a Christian. That religion will be abolished with all the other bogus religions. Jesus was not a Christian.  :banana:

That's a bold way to put it, but I know where you are coming from.  In a church I attended many years ago, members would be sometimes accused of having a "spirit of religion."  I only call myself a Christian because I try to follow the Christ.

Definition:  Christian - a follower of the Christ.  If "Christians" truly were followers of the Christ, as they should be by definition, then I would call myself a Christian.  But the word has become tainted by the so-called "Christians" who are anything but Christian in the true sense of the word.  I don't call myself a Christian either, anymore.

[jbertonbounds]

IMO, the purpose of the lake of fire is to "burn up" everything that opposes God: works of the self-will and the resulting death.  This leaves only the spirits of the humans that God loves.  They will have been purified.  Saved as through fire (1 Corinthians 3:15).  Death will have been destroyed.  Evil will exist no more.

[jabcat]

This verse caught my eye this morning;

Matthew 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor ; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

[marie glen]

amen, "evil will exist no more" - what happy words...

I don't know how others see things, but I think of the new heavens and new earth as very physical... but without any of the evil or even imperfection, but back to the beginning when God said "it's all good!"

Possibly upon a higher vibration as some may say, but definitely physical.. where the lion will literally "eat straw like the ox, and the bear will graze with the cow.."

It's a beautiful thing God is creating.. (his own family of many beautiful branches) but before it can be an un-breakable paradise, aLL must learn one aLL important thing. That a living being simply cannot walk away from God who is Life and also Perfection, for to do so is to become (1st of all) im-Perfect, the opposite of Life. Thus to wander from God/Life/Perfection 'would be' to simply self destruct in a tiny puff of smoke(the lesson of apocalypse-the totality of human history as we know it,lesson).. This is the overall lesson all are learning.. chewing on that fruit of knowing good from evil which is also life from death - Only God lives.

[Eduard]

I agree Marie Glen!

As for what should we call ourselves, Paul said we shouldn't call ourselves followers of Paul or Peter or Apollo but of Christ only.

Some of you might say we believe in universal reconciliation. We do, but we believe in it as presented in the Bible and we believe that it is possible due to Jesus Christ, thus we are Christians (followers of Christ)  :2c:

[mplsfitter539]

I agree Marie Glen!

As for what should we call ourselves, Paul said we shouldn't call ourselves followers of Paul or Peter or Apollo but of Christ only.

Some of you might say we believe in universal reconciliation. We do, but we believe in it as presented in the Bible and we believe that it is possible due to Jesus Christ, thus we are Christians (followers of Christ)  :2c:

Do you believe that someone can be a follower of Jesus Christ and not claim or cling to any titles, names, or doctrines?

[ded2daworld]

"and they'll know we are christians by our love, by our love, and they'll know we are christians by our love"

"If I'm to be labeled or put myself in a group with a name, let me be known amongst all solely for my love of God and man than anything else."
  - Jeffrey Smith

[jbertonbounds]

I agree Marie Glen!

As for what should we call ourselves, Paul said we shouldn't call ourselves followers of Paul or Peter or Apollo but of Christ only.

Some of you might say we believe in universal reconciliation. We do, but we believe in it as presented in the Bible and we believe that it is possible due to Jesus Christ, thus we are Christians (followers of Christ)  :2c:

Do you believe that someone can be a follower of Jesus Christ and not claim or cling to any titles, names, or doctrines?

Call a spade a spade.
I am a Christ-follower. :thumbsup:
I evade the use of the word "Christian" for the reasons that have been posted here. :sigh:
As for doctrines, there is only one that is true, and that is the one for which I am constantly searching.
It is a doctrine of love. :HeartThrob:
Let the love of the Christ flow through you and you are clinging to the one true doctrine. :HeartThrob:

[jbertonbounds]

"and they'll know we are christians by our love, by our love, and they'll know we are christians by our love"

"If I'm to be labeled or put myself in a group with a name, let me be known amongst all solely for my love of God and man than anything else."
  - Jeffrey Smith

Love that song.  There is so much truth in that.

[mplsfitter539]

Call a spade a spade.
I am a Christ-follower. :thumbsup:
I evade the use of the word "Christian" for the reasons that have been posted here. :sigh:
As for doctrines, there is only one that is true, and that is the one for which I am constantly searching.
It is a doctrine of love. :HeartThrob:
Let the love of the Christ flow through you and you are clinging to the one true doctrine. :HeartThrob:

I don't believe that love is a doctrine but whatever.

Although in many contexts "dogma" and "doctrine" are used interchangeably, in technical theological contexts "dogma" has a narrower meaning: a doctrine which has been given official status by a religious body. Especially in the Catholic Church dogmas are required beliefs whereas many other less firmly established beliefs are only doctrines.


Nonspecialists writing about religion often ignore the distinction, and call a doctrine which has not received such official status a "dogma." Since only some doctrines are dogmas but all dogmas are doctrines and since "dogma" often has negative connotations, it's safer in non-technical religious contexts to stick with "doctrine."

In Christ,
DuWayne

[Eduard]

Of course we can. I consider myself a Christian without being Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran and so on.

[jbertonbounds]

Call a spade a spade.
I am a Christ-follower. :thumbsup:
I evade the use of the word "Christian" for the reasons that have been posted here. :sigh:
As for doctrines, there is only one that is true, and that is the one for which I am constantly searching.
It is a doctrine of love. :HeartThrob:
Let the love of the Christ flow through you and you are clinging to the one true doctrine. :HeartThrob:

I don't believe that love is a doctrine but whatever.

Although in many contexts "dogma" and "doctrine" are used interchangeably, in technical theological contexts "dogma" has a narrower meaning: a doctrine which has been given official status by a religious body. Especially in the Catholic Church dogmas are required beliefs whereas many other less firmly established beliefs are only doctrines.


Nonspecialists writing about religion often ignore the distinction, and call a doctrine which has not received such official status a "dogma." Since only some doctrines are dogmas but all dogmas are doctrines and since "dogma" often has negative connotations, it's safer in non-technical religious contexts to stick with "doctrine."

In Christ,
DuWayne

I wasn't actually saying that love in itself is a doctrine, but that the one true doctrine of the true gospel of Christ is a doctrine that is founded upon the love of God.  That's the doctrine that Paul spoke of in Gal 1:7-8 ["there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."]  If you are living a lifestyle that is all about the love of God, then you are clinging to the one true doctrine of the gospel of Christ, the gospel of victory.

[mplsfitter539]

John I still disagree that it is a doctrine. Does God have doctrines? As far as I know God commands believers not to follow traditions of men which are called doctrines. This is why I disagree that anything that God commands is a doctrine. Men make up doctrines God lays down the law in love but I would not call it a doctrine.

[jbertonbounds]

John I still disagree that it is a doctrine. Does God have doctrines? As far as I know God commands believers not to follow traditions of men which are called doctrines. This is why I disagree that anything that God commands is a doctrine. Men make up doctrines God lays down the law in love but I would not call it a doctrine.

Sorry, I was getting things turned around.  I was saying "doctrine," and was thinking "gospel."  The Pauline scripture I quoted was about the true gospel. 

I do define "doctrine" a little differently.  True, the doctrines of man are errant.  There are a number of mentions of the word "doctrine" in the New Testament, and the Greek word "didaskalia" that is translated "doctrine" is define by Strongs as:

g1319, didaskalia
1) teaching, instruction
2) teaching
    a) that which is taught, doctrine
    b) teachings, precepts

It is often referred to as "sound doctrine."  Perhaps a better modern translation of the word "didaskalia" would be "teaching" - thus referring to the teachings of the Christ as "sound teaching."  That's what I was referring to as "doctrine." :thumbsup: