The Fall of Man

[WhiteWings]

How did man fall from grace, when we do not read of grace until Gen 6:8  And Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah.

Maybe like TT said perhaps... grace... favor.
I view it as an honor to live in that garden. Father has taken that honor away. The lost their status. They fell in status.
But again things getting more complicated. The topic starts with "fall". Then "angel" is added. And now "grace" is added.
I'm not saying those words shouldn't be in this discussion. (I think they belong here) It just complicates things more.
Each of those 3 words are enough for scholars to fill a whole bookshelf with.
And then we are use 3 of them in one discussion... :winkgrin:

Note to Micah: I'm not attacking your views or trying to ridicule you as you assumed before. I just have a strong belief that the various defenitions can make the/a discussion almost impossible.

[micah7:9]

What does it read?

I'll simplify my question for you: Do you agree with what I quoted in post#85. Yes or No?

I do not believe the eoman talked to a snake

[Nathan]

Adam missed the mark . .that's what sin is . . .he fell.  And snakes don't eat dust for their meat . . so it's not as we see things literally.  Carnality eats flesh . . when we don't walk in the spirit, we become food for the carnality in us.

[thinktank]

To me the snake that eats dust is a reference to Satan who must rely on man for his food. For dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return. If Gods food is rightoeusness then the devils food is carnality.

Not sure whether there is actually a snake in the garden, but in a literal sense snakes, mostly slither in rocky, dusty, dry places and their mouths are close to the floor. Perhaps originally snakes were more similar to the cobra, who is able to erect themselves upright. So what happened in the garden could be a reference to the physical and the spiritual. :2c:

[WhiteWings]

TT, I agree that the snake likely was not a snake. But just lets call it a snake.

Man = dust.
Sin/death is linked to earth.
=> Sin = dust

Snake eats dust.
=> Snake eats sin.

[Nathan]

Snake eats sin?  That doesn't seem to fit.  I see it as when I walk in carnality . . .it (carnality) consumes ME.  When I walk in anger, I've already been consumed by a situation.  When I walk in worry, same thing.  When I walk in lust . . .it's all the same pattern and principle.

The serpent "in" the tree is what governs the realm of that tree.  We live in this realm of the flesh, we are governed by the flesh and our minds govern our understanding . .. in this realm . . .it all changes when we walk "in the spirit."

[WhiteWings]

consumes ME.

ME=flesh=dust=carnality=sin
Eat=feed=thrive

The snake thrives on (the) sin (of man).

Thrives=>Snake has grown to a dragon of Rev.
:2c:

[Nathan]

I'll give you that . . .we've been feeding the thing ever since we entered into the realm of the flesh.  We've been feeding it us and have been under it's control as a result.  Some have been born again into religion and it's simply followed us there.  It still controls our minds and vision and veils our understanding.

Only when we enter into a relationship with the True Father rather than someone's image of him, are we then broken free from the power of this beast within us.  It's the nature that governs this realm we live in.  When left up to it's own devices, it will cause us to turn on ourselves and destroy one another.  Our warring with others is evidence of the fact our nature is consumed by the beast of man.

By warring, I don't mean debates . .. I mean aggressively attacking, condemning and degrading . ..

[micah7:9]

Adam missed the mark . .that's what sin is . . .he fell.  And snakes don't eat dust for their meat . . so it's not as we see things literally.  Carnality eats flesh . . when we don't walk in the spirit, we become food for the carnality in us.

Here is just something that was revealed to me not to long ago. Sin is to miss the mark, but the first time "sin" is mentioned in the Book is Gen 4:7  If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door: and unto thee shall be its desire, but do thou rule over it. And nothing to do with Adam, yet I have taken serious thought that man is still at Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
But then again, I lean more to understanding the Books of Gen. 2 and further on as allegorys, and that causes my imput to be somewhat diminished in debate.

[micah7:9]

TT, I agree that the snake likely was not a snake. But just lets call it a snake.

Man = dust.
Sin/death is linked to earth.
=> Sin = dust

Snake eats dust.
=> Snake eats sin.

I believe it will edify more that we call it a serpent, since it is never called a snake [only to our human definition] I also lean toward believing that the "dragon" was present in the prophetical and spirit of Gen.1:21 "whales" H8577 from H8565 tan
From an unused root probably meaning to elongate; a monster (as preternaturally formed), that is, a sea serpent (or other huge marine animal); also a jackal (or other hideous land animal): - dragon, whale.  Just my  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

I believe it will edify more that we call it a serpent,

No problem. In my own language the two words are practically the same. Not only as an animal but also all kind of negative meanings. "My" Bible uses snake instead of serpent.
Anyway I'll use serpent (if I remeber)

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happygrin:

(no offense, brother T-Tank) but, ...what a lot of unfounded speculation...   :thumbdown:

No offense taken.

Good.  :wink2:

I realize that this is advanced stuff im proposing

:laughing7: 

Actually your viewpoint, is nothing but common Orthodox thought, which is hardly "advanced", rather is that which is ensnared in the practices of addition to Biblical text and subsequent conjectures...  Like I have told you before, I had affiliations of 25years with Orthodoxy, so I am a bit familiar with the beliefs.

as for one, the very thing I propose did not happen and did not come to pass, therefore it makes this position difficult for me on a scriptural basis. But nevertheless I do believe what I said is in harmony with the word of God and explains, why God gave the command to freely choose any tree, except that one tree.

FIRST -- you admit to your proposal as having NOT occured... (imagined)
SECOND -- you admit that it has NO Scriptural basis... (no foundation)
THIRD -- you "nevertheless" believe what you say is IN HARMONY to the WORD.

:JCThink:  This sounds like a method of someone that is purposely and stubbornly, SELF-DELUSIONAL.

Gods commands are not in vain and there was a specific reason for that command and I belive that was the test towards Adam and Eve, just like how we today are tested by God on many occasions throughout our life.

No one is implying that GOD's COMMANDS are ever given "in vain"... They are HIS COMMANDS, and He made MAN, ...KNOWING and DECLARING what MAN would do... when faced with the "COMMAND" given. 

Also... CHRIST was already SLAIN from the foundation, before those COMMANDS which GOD KNEW would be disregarded (for He had already DECLARED they would be disregarded)...  in order to RESTORE the ones which HE KNEW would need RESTORING, because of their DECLARED disregard.

This is PURPOSE already set in place, not a conjecture of --- "if this happens, I'll do that" :rolleye:

If they obeyed the command God would have done something else for humanity, you say they didn't and that is true but also an easy thing to say for it is history.

If I had strong enough legs I could jump to the moon... or,
If I had harder teeth I could eat steel... or,
If I was born in the beginning, I would've been Adam... or,
If I was Bill Gates I wouldn't need my social security money... or,
If I was not human I could be a giraffe... or,
If I was not 65 years old, I could be a kid... or,
If I didn't have a stomach, I'd need another system to digest my food... or if, ...or if, ...or if, ...or if, ..... :wacko2:

Adam could NOT have "chosen" other than He did, for His choice was already noted by the WORD of GOD -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17 -- so no "alternate" imagined scenario was even possible.

Before even one second of this realm took place it was ALREADY DECLARED (by the WORD of God), END to BEGINNING, what (every UNDONE thing=everything) would take place...

This included ADAM & Eve choosing to eat, the Death & Resurrection of CHRIST, unto this DIGITAL day we now live in... 

I don't see how that Romans verse explains why Adam ate the tree. That verse is talking about how Abraham, despite evidence to the contrary belived and had faith in God who calleth things that be not as though they are. This is what we do when we pray and excercise faith, we believe in things that are not as though they are, we believe in health when we are sick, believe in riches while we are poor etc.

You don't see a lot of things, T-tank... just because you do not "see" them, does not mean they are not there...

It conveys a PRINCIPLE which you refuse to "see"... which is that GOD calls things that ARE NOT... as though THEY WERE...

It is not specific to ABRAHAM... just like Ex 20:1-3 is not specific to the JEWS, nor is it specific to the CONTEXT it has been spoken in, rather... is TRUTH in PRINCIPLE concerning ALL, and is free of the BOUNDARIES which men like yourself might attempt to IMPOSE upon it.

It is the principle of PROPHECY... which is also DUE and come forth from the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD and which "manifests" without fail TO THE LETTER, each thing which is foretold!

The lord who declares things from the beginning is talking about major events, such as the birth of a messiah, the creation of the earth etc.

Typical BLIND Orthodox vision... The text of -- Isaiah 46:10 -- does not SPECIFY that which you just named... so your statement is an ADDITION to it... 

It CLEARLY SAYS that HE DECLARED the END from the BEGINNING, those THINGS ...NOT YET DONE...  How many "things" is that, T-tank?  :dontknow:

The COUNSEL of YHVH is mentioned in this verse... as well as this one:  Eph 1:11 -- which BOTH state that HE is "doing, the DOINGS"!

He's not really concerned and declared that you would drink 2 cups of coffe today and not 3, or whether you had cornflakes or rice krispies for breakfast, these are your decisions and it's the reason why a lot of christians are unhealthy and/or overweight due to their unhealthy choices.

That you had not had your coffee yet this morning, was ALREADY KNOWN and DECLARED, irregardless of the triviality you pretend to reduce them to... for even in your own words, you note that men are making (what YOU consider) UNHEALTHY choices (not that they are necessarily "unhealthy")

And in your statement, you note that GOD is not concerned with these DETAILS even though they are potentially detrimental to the individuals "choosing"?  That is plain and simple... INDIFFERENCE.

You therefore name GOD, as INDIFFERENT to your "unhealthy choosings", which INDIFFERENCE, ...is the actual OPPOSITE of LOVE. (not "hate" as you likely percieve)...

You would propose that GOD is not concerned with EVERY MOMENT and DETAIL of your life, as you just alluded... yet He NUMBERS the very Hairs upon your head (not that He necessarily finds that a difficult task  :laughing7:)...

Now WHY would He do this, if He was not concerned with the DETAILS of YOUR LIFE, T-tank?   He is concerned about the death of each SPARROW... yet you dispense with the depth of His LOVE for men?  ...  :thumbdown: 

Which blindness sadly,  :sigh: ...is the reason WHY you believe Him to be in the end, the greatest cosmic MURDERER of all time!  (annhilating the creatures He LOVES and gave His Son to redeem)

If God truly declared all things he would declare that all his people be in good health and prosperous, but no we have to contend for these things by faith and living a godly lifestyle through Christ within us who shapens us over the course of time, while others he does instant miracles for.

All this notation is, amounts to YOU pretending to be HIM (God)...

For He INDEED DECLARED the DEATH of His Son, before a moment of this realm transpired -- Rev 13:8 --  But YOU, as did PETER (when he was addressed as "satan"), would've OBJECTED and DO OBJECT to the doings of GOD, ...for YOU just stated that "If God truly declared all things he would declare that all his people be in good health and prosperous" --

However, the health of JESUS was NOT GOOD!  Instead by the DECLARATION of GOD --- He was AFFLICTED, SMITTEN, STRICKEN, BRUISED, and CHASTISED for US! -- Isaiah 53:3-5 -- Nor did He "PROSPER" as you inaccurately imagine, ...yet was DECLARED by YHVH to endure these things for a REASON... do you even know what that REASON is. T-tank?  (of course you will not answer, for ignorance is your best method of evasion)...

:omg:  You propose that God "reacts" to the agenda/doings of man... Instead of the reverse!

I think you are overusing that sign post, it's starting to weaken due to the wormwood. You remind me of my sister in some ways with her shocking expression all the time, If I say boo.

Please... do you even know what "wormwood" is? ...offer your definition.

As far as "overuse"... that is your opinion, which I THINK is quite OVERUSED by you in the stead of the WORD.  :pitiful:

The scriptures I read are saying that God does react to us, this is what I read in my bible on a daily basis I don't know why you are shocked. Prayer for example what's that all about? Is it not for God to react to us, to react to our prayers. If God answered your prayers I'm sure you'd be shocked.

You are where you are T-tank... which is not your "fault", nor is it my place to judge the position you occupy presently, as I at one time, ...sat in that ORTHODOX, seat...  :declare:

Do you really know what PRAYER is, T-tank?  Do you think it to be the expression of the desires of your heart?  Or is it requests that need to be filled in your life?  What you want for "christmas"?  A raise at work?  World peace? 

Tell me what you THINK that PRAYER is... and why (whatever it IS), ...that IT should CAUSE GOD to "react" to IT?  :dontknow:

The ALMIGHTY does not any more "react" to you, than do you "react" to the dirt in your backyard.  For we are nothing but DIRT which is destined to return to it -- Gen 3:19

You (as do many Orthodox)... WAY overestimate yourself before Him... and because you do... you shall ...REAP what you SOW...

Had Adam had such a "choice", and enacted it (picking the tree of Life) ...Then the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil (known only to GOD) would NOT have been shared with man, and therefore GOD would NOT and could NOT be ALL in ALL...  For the LIVING experience and REVELATION of that KNOWLEDGE would be "negated"...

That's a very eye opening statement, so your saying that God knows good and evil therefore if he would be in us we would also know good and evil.

You fail to even grasp the elementary levels of spirituality and PURPOSE of this realm.

That's the beauty of the cross, and the love of God. Even though Adam and Eve desired power knowing good and evil and to be as God, God set up a plan that would bring them back to him.

Again... as most ORTHODOX minds contend... desiring to BE like GOD, is somehow WRONG?  Do you not desire to BE as is GOD, T-tank?  If you do not aspire to BE like GOD, ...who do you wish to be LIKE?  :dontknow:

Adam & Eve didn't know what they were actually doing when they did what they did... They were following the INTENT of their Creator... and the PATHWAY which was DIRECTED by Him that they would follow -- Prov 16:9 -- 20:24 -- 21:1 -- Jer 10:23 -- you however, would jettision these PLAIN and SIMPLE remarks in the WORD for they are not conduscive to your "choosings" which you esteem to be free from His (indifferent to details) INFLUENCE...  :bumbrage:

As the bible says he loved us not that we loved God.

Wait just a darn, cotton pickin', "free will" minute here!  I thought YOU "chose" to LOVE Him, ...of yourself, using your "free will" to do so? 

Singeth thou now, a different tune?  :blah:   

I mean... it is your belief that YOU decide your pathway.  And if LOVE for GOD, appears upon it... that it is YOU which decided to LOVE Him, of your own "free will"?  Ain't that it, T-tank?   :Chinscratch:

If Adam choose good then I guess that God would not be in all, but rather we would all be like Adam and Eve.

More imaginary dialogue... "If Adam had jumped to the moon, then Neil Armstrong... would've been, ..."just another guy"

I will continue in another post...  :heat:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :icon_king:

continuing...

It would still be a glorious existence, we would have the garden and peace.

Only from the view of GOD which KNOWS GOOD (as well as EVIL), and thereby is able to determine it as GOOD... due to that KNOWLEDGE.

As for YOU, ...You would have no KNOWLEDGE of your existence as being "GOOD" T-tank!  For that KNOWLEDGE would not be possessed by you.  Any more than me, as an uneducated musician, can KNOW how the internal workings of my computer can instantly put this site on my screen, and digitally transfer my postings to this site.

The KNOWLEDGE... is a 2 sided KNOWLEDGE, one indicating the other, one NEEDING the other to find its DEFINITION... without this KNOWLEDGE, one would be alive, without AWARENESS as to the STATE of that LIFE... just alive... but COMPLETELY unaware of the GOODNESS and MIRACLE that LIFE is... for NO DEATH exists to oppose it... no NEGATIVITY exists to indicate it to be POSITIVE, etc...

The angels of God have already experienced life without evil, so if they did I'm sure that Adam and Eve could have. Adam and Eve knew God, walked and talked but they didn't have the holy spirit within them, which is our gift thanks to Jesus.

The angels had no reference to GOOD and EVIL, until it has been REVEALED here, T-tank.  This is part of the RICHES of HIS GLORY as the REVEALING of the Sons of GOD, has manifest by the WORKING of GOD which WORKS ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- (including Adam & Eve's choice to eat) ... Don't you get it?

There are no "what if's" with God, T-tank... "what if's" are nothing but imaginations... and concerning man, they are VAIN ones -- Rom 1:21 -- 2 Cor 10:5 -- Jer 17:9

That romans verse is not talking about what if's. It's talking about men who rejected God, even though they knew him they changed him from the uncorrupt to that which is corrupt.

And so the BLIND (false PROPHETS) do not admit to their blindness... claiming they can SEE... and because of this, their SIN REMAINS -- John 9:39-41 -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Try on the shoe, if it fits, wear it, T-tank!  :sigh:

Your "what IF's" are nothing but VAIN imaginations which DO NOT glorify God, and which are supplied by YOU to give YOU a foundation of FANTASY to speak from... as you observe the WORD of God before others.  :sigh:

These men were not interested in God and did not want his rightousness so God, just like how he gave the Israelis their hearts desires in the wilderness in moses time a sandfull of meat that they chocked upon, God also gives up these men to their corrupt minds.

Any MAN which inserts his/her own "IMAGINATIONS" into the mouth of the Creator, is disinterested in HIM as God... Seeking GLORY for their own imaginations, rather than the GLORY of the LOVE of the TRUTH -- 2 Thess 2:10-11 -- wallowing in their IMAGINATION, rather than in what IS WRITTEN... with the BLINDED "what IF's" of their conjectures.... instead of WHAT is NOTED to BE or have BEEN, by the WORD.

SHAME is the destiny of these, as they present what they consider "wonderful works" to the Lord... which names those (supposed) "wonderful works" -- INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23

Again the corinthians verse is talking about the same thing, except it is more about an instruction to the church to cast down vain imaginations, there is nothing concerning what if's or the choices of man.

More of your sidestepping...

Why do you therefore FAIL to cast them (imaginations) DOWN, T-tank?  Instead you propose your "what IF's", throughout this and other postings done by you...

The Jeremiah verse even supports what I'm saying, it says I try the reign and give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

And what of YOURSELF, T-tank?  What about your "what IF's"?  What of the DECEIT of their INVALIDITY?  What of these VAIN proposals that note that the WRITING in the HOLY WORD which is an UNCHANGING and TRUTHFUL notation, is indeed opposed by your "what IF's"?  

If GOD's WORD is PERFECTLY COMPLETE and TRUTH... wherein is found your ALTERNATIVE "what IF" imagined scenario, T-tank?  Are you getting any of this T-tank?  Did you come here to learn?  Or just to continually spout your "what IF" IMAGINATIONS which propose that what is WRITTEN in the PERFECT WORD of God "could've happened otherwise"?  Do you not see the blasphemy in that propostion?  That it is INSULTING to God?

:sorry:  WALKING upon HOLY GROUND, with your SHOES ON -- Ex 3:5

So here we have nothing about God declaring, but rather God is searching, trying, judging mens hearts and what they sow they reap, according to his ways.

You reduce the ALMIGHTY to your vision of Him... failing to learn, failing to observe the WORD as it is WRITTEN, displacing it with your IMAGINARY scenarios... insulting the ETERNAL WORD, with the imaginary substitutions of your humanity... :pitiful:

It IS NOT GLORIFYING to God to note Him as needfully "REACTING" to the vanity of men (having to set up a "redemption plan", due to their "choosing")...  This portrays God as "kicking the wall" ...looking toward JESUS saying "dang!  Look what THEY DID!  Now YOU are going to have to go down there and DIE, to bring those dumb bozos home!  Why didn't they choose the RIGHT tree?"

I belive it is glorifying in the sense that God allows us free reign but ends up saving us all anyway. What attribute you think wins most if God gives us free reign but saves us all anyway?

Don't you see that you FACILITATE yourself with these words T-tank?  So YOU can have your "free reign"?  Separating yourself from Him in doing so?

You would make God a parent which "ALLOWS" His Children to MISBEHAVE?  Is THAT your method of parenting?  Did or DO you ALLOW your children to MISBEHAVE, so that THEY can maintain a "free reign" from YOUR CONTROL?  

This METHOD of parenting, is of the MOST IRRESPONSIBLE...  Those who do NOT discipline their Children for MISBEHAVIOR, but ALLOW them to MISBEHAVE, are not parenting in the best interests of the child.  Do you fail to see this, T-tank?  Is pride such an issue that you shall cling to it at any cost?

Now what attribute wins or is magnified if God declared every detail in life and declares that we be all saved without us having a say?

That in ALL THINGS, HE was guide to their end... That whether GOOD or EVIL, ...God's INTENTION in ALL THINGS was manifest...

Why do you think He RAISED PHAROAH to DO what he DID, T-tank? -- Rom 9:17 -- in WHAT WAY do you find GLORY in God's raising of PHAROAH? Which ENSLAVED His people?

I like you story about God kicking the wall, I think that is the jist of it, remember what did Jesus do before he went to the cross?
Didn't he pray to his father that this cup pass away from me?

As would any MAN... He did of Himself KNOW NOTHING... which is WHY He "asked"... the FLESH shall NEVER aspire to being murdered... would YOU T-tank?

However, unlike other men, He ALWAYS submitted to the WILL of YHVH which was that He indeed MUST BE MURDERED... in order to REDEEM mankind...

And didn't the holy ghost answer this request by appearing to Pontius Pilates wife in a dream in an effort to save him?

What EMBELLISHMENT to what is WRITTEN -- Matt 27:19 -- (since YOU did not bother to name the reference)

Where is the Holy Ghost mentioned in this?  :dontknow:  Where is it said that the Holy Ghost "appeared" to her?

And to propose that the Holy Spirit was "in cahoots" with the dispensing of the sacrifice of CHRIST... is to state a position IN CONTENTION with YHVH... which had FOREORDAINED that sacrifice!  

Peter was reprimanded for this CONTENTION and addressed as "satan"... you now blashpheme the Holy Spirit, by saying that the DREAM was an EFFORT to NEGATE the SALVATION NEEDED SACRIFICE of JESUS?

But the father had to answer Jesus request but also make sure he went to the cross

What a crock...  :thumbdown:

The "answer" from YHVH, ...was SILENCE! :nod:

so this dream took place, which answered Jesus prayer, but father had to make sure he went to the cross, so the woman had her heart hardened.

Where is this "hardening" mentioned, aside from your IMAGINATION, T-tank?

This was not an answer to the prayer of CHRIST...

The "answer" was found in the MANIFESTATION of what in fact, occured... and what was manifest, had nothing to do with the wife of Pontius Pilate... except to note that the MURDER was UNJUST.

Had Pilate submitted to the request of his wife... YOU and I  would not have SALVATION.  :sigh:  (nor would anyone else!)

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Quaesitor]

 :goodpost:

[peacemaker]

Jeremiah 8

At that time, declares the LORD, they will bring out the bones of the (Serpent) Kings of Judah and the bones of its princes, and the bones of the priests and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem from their graves.

They will spread them out to the sun, the moon and to all the host of heaven, which they have loved and which they have served, and which they have gone after and which they have sought, and which they have worshiped. They will not be gathered or buried; they will be as dung on the face of the ground.

And death will be chosen rather than life by all the remnant that remains of this evil family, that remains in all the places to which I have driven them," declares the LORD of hosts. You shall say to them, Thus says the LORD:

Do men fall and not get up again?
Does one turn away and not repent?

Why then has this people, Jerusalem, Turned away in continual apostasy?

They hold fast to deceit, they refuse to return. I have listened and heard and they have spoken what is not right. No man repented of his wickedness, Saying, 'What have I done?'

Everyone turned to his course, like a horse charging into the battle. Even the stork in the sky knows her seasons; and the turtledove and the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration; but My people do not know the ordinance of the LORD.

How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'?

But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men are put to shame, they are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, and what kind of wisdom do they have?

Therefore I will give their wives to others, their fields to new owners; because from the least even to the greatest everyone is greedy for gain; from the prophet even to the priest everyone practices deceit. They heal the brokenness of the daughter of My people superficially, saying, 'Peace, peace,' but there is no peace.

Were they ashamed because of the abomination they had done?

They certainly were not ashamed, and they did not know how to blush; therefore they shall fall among those who fall; at the time of their punishment they shall be brought down, says the LORD.

I will surely snatch them away, declares the LORD; there will be no grapes on the vine and no figs on the fig tree, and the leaf will wither; And what I have given them will pass away. Why are we sitting still?

Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the fortified cities. And let us perish there, because the LORD our God has doomed us and given us poisoned water to drink, for we have sinned against the LORD.

We waited for peace, but no good came; for a time of healing, but behold, terror!
From Dan is heard the snorting of his horses; at the sound of the neighing of his stallions.

The whole land quakes; for they come and devour the land and its fullness, the city and its inhabitants. For behold, I am sending Serpents against you, Adders (venomous snakes or vipers) for which there is no charm, and they will bite you, declares the LORD.

My sorrow is beyond healing. My heart is faint within me! Behold, listen! The cry of the daughter of my people from a distant land: Is the LORD not in Zion? Is her King not within her? Why have they provoked Me with their graven images, with foreign idols?

Harvest is past, summer is ended, and we are not saved. For the brokenness of the daughter of my people I am broken; I mourn, dismay has taken hold of me. Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician there?

Why then has not the health of the daughter of my people been restored?


"Many would rather deny their own senses, than come to their senses."