There is a debate among all Christians, but I have noticed especially among those who believe the truth of universal salvation. It has to do with what people call "works based salvation." So I thought I would approach this subject according to a small study I did regarding this issue. Before I post the scriptures, I will say that the guiding principle I will use is the clear statement of the Angel of God concerning Christ's mission.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now we know that Jesus means (Jehovah saves). This shows us that the reason our Lord is named Jesus is BECAUSE he shall save his people from their sins. That is the motivating operator for everything Jesus does concerning the salvation of the world. When I was coming out of the ET circle, one of my confusions centered around "if not hell, then what are we saved from." People kept using the word "saved" and "salvation" but I never really knew what that meant anymore.
I didn't need to guess. The Bible tells me that Jehovah will save his people from their sin, and that through Jesus Christ. What I think we in the truth of the Gospel should probably start talking about is a VERY important distinction in the New Testament concerning "works."
There are "good works"
There are "works of the law"
Take a look:
"GOOD WORKS"
Romans 13:3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
1 Timothy 2:10
But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1 Timothy 5:9-11
No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband, and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds. As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.
1 Timothy 5:25
Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.
1 Timothy 6:17-18
Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
2 Timothy 3:16-18
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 3:14
And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works
1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
---------------
"WORKS OF THE LAW"
Romans 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
----------
First of all, for all the folks that teach a duel evangel gospel, just take notice of how many of the "good works" scriptures are verses from the Epistles of who? That's right PAUL!!! :LH:
Isn't that interesting? Curiously enough, I don't hear many people who teach the duel evangel theology discussing the importance of "good works" certainly not to the degree of the grace teacher, Paul. Could there be something about "grace" and "salvation" that that Paul understood, which is not often discussed? I think so.
Notice the difference in tone between the "good works" scriptures and the "works of the law" scriptures. It looks like good works seems to be of a HIGH priority to Paul, where works of the law are warned against.
So my question is to the forum is this: what do you think the difference is between "good works" and "works of the law?" If we are to be saved from sin, what part do you think that "good works" plays in salvation from sin?
I actually think one scripture presses the point home:
Galatians 3:5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ah ha! That's the answer. THAT is why and HOW righteousness comes by faith. Righteousness is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. The spirit.....WORKETH. You see? But the Spirit does not WORKETH by works of the law, but the hearing of faith!
That is how righteousness given as a gift:
Philippians 3:8-9
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
I think the theory is fairly simple but in everyday life it gets blured a bit.
If you goto church every sunday because that's needed to stay out of hell then you are working for profit.
If you goto church every sunday because you want to honor God that little bit extra because you really love Him is works of love.
Jesus healed on Sabbath out of love. Others let the sick be sick because they where earning heaven at that day.
It's, IMO, the intention of the act. Not the act itself.
Monks that asked a question about smoking.
Q: May we smoke during prayer?
A: No! You should concentrate during prayer.
The second group of monks asked the same question differently.
Q: May we pray during smoking?
A: Of course you may! It's always good to say an extra prayer.
It might seem an odd example at first but I think it perfectly describes this topic.
The act of smoking/praying is the same but the intentions not.
One group wanted to smoke to make praying more plesant.
The other group wanted to worship a little extra during smoking.
A vistor would just see 2 groups doing the same. Namely smoking during prayer.
But the intention is different.
Could that be the simple key/answer to this post?
Forgot to add. I started my post with:
QuoteI think the theory is fairly simple but in everyday life it gets blured a bit.
Example of that. I used to give to charity once in a while. Just to help people. That was a simple fact.
But once I started nosing in the Bible I give more. But the fact is no longer simple. Have I become a better person because I give more (good works) or am I trying to bribe God?
I truely do
not know the answer.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 12, 2009, 09:30:02 AM
I think the theory is fairly simple but in everyday life it gets blured a bit.
If you goto church every sunday because that's needed to stay out of hell then you are working for profit.
If you goto church every sunday because you want to honor God that little bit extra because you really love Him is works of love.
Jesus healed on Sabbath out of love. Others let the sick be sick because they where earning heaven at that day.
It's, IMO, the intention of the act. Not the act itself.
Monks that asked a question about smoking.
Q: May we smoke during prayer?
A: No! You should concentrate during prayer.
The second group of monks asked the same question differently.
Q: May we pray during smoking?
A: Of course you may! It's always good to say an extra prayer.
It might seem an odd example at first but I think it perfectly describes this topic.
The act of smoking/praying is the same but the intentions not.
One group wanted to smoke to make praying more plesant.
The other group wanted to worship a little extra during smoking.
A vistor would just see 2 groups doing the same. Namely smoking during prayer.
But the intention is different.
Could that be the simple key/answer to this post?
Good post WW.
Matthew chapters 24 and 25 deal with the slothful servant. The ten virgins, five diligent in keeping their lamps buring, five who did not. And for those who did not the bridegroom says " I never knew you...."
As Eph 2-10 states we are called "unto good works". This is apart of the spirit of God working within us. If we do not feel the urge to in some way help someone in need than maybe we need to look a little harder at where we are in him.
As for the difference between this and works of the law? I read this just this morning.
"Which (water) in manner corresponding does now save you also even immersion, NOT A PUTTING AWAY OF THE FLESH,BUT THE REQUEST UNTO GOD FOR A GOOD CONSCIENCE 1 peter 3-21
Works of the law are simply trying to make the flesh perfect, which is prideful.
I think we all wonder if we are doing enough for him sometimes. But I feel that as WW posted it's about intent. No, I don't think we are all called to sponsor a starving child from a third world country. Maybe your neighbor down the street could use that extra 20 dollars? It's all about the works he has called us to do. I've given sporadically to charities, some because I felt the need, and admitedly sometimes just because I felt I wasn't doing enough. But I don't feel that God wants us to fell that way. If we pray for less of us so that he shines through more, than just as all of the above verses state, then we will be about our Father's business, and he will take care of the rest.
Grace and peace,
Brandon
I think Martin Luther is to blame for alot of the confusion here. Although I think he got the basic idea right, "Justification by Faith Alone" was a horrible name for his docrtine because the only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith alone" or "faith only" is written in James and it has a big NOT right in front of it. (Then again, that's why Luther wanted James taken out of the canon) Something I've had to come to grips with is the fact that justification is by faith and works. HOWEVER THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE EARN OR MERIT SALVATION. What James is saying here is works are required for justification because they are the natural outcome and thus natural evidence of a true transformation. Salvation is so much more that going to heaven when you die. When we recieve the Spirit, it is from then on constantly at work in us, molding us into the image of Christ, so yes, the natural outcome is going to be a gradual transformation of who we are and how we live our lives. Seeing this truth as well as the fact that when Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works of the law he meant the Jewish Torah has erased alot of errornous thinking from my mind, especially considering the Hyper Dispensational (Dual Gospel) ideaology.
From some of the things I've read about Martin Luther, it seems he might have used his "discovery" of faith alone as an occasion for the flesh to rule. That's why I don't see him as a hero of the faith.
anne
Quote from: Jerm on September 12, 2009, 04:48:56 PM
I think Martin Luther is to blame for alot of the confusion here. Although I think he got the basic idea right, "Justification by Faith Alone" was a horrible name for his docrtine because the only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith alone" or "faith only" is written in James and it has a big NOT right in front of it. (Then again, that's why Luther wanted James taken out of the canon) Something I've had to come to grips with is the fact that justification is by faith and works. HOWEVER THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE EARN OR MERIT SALVATION. What James is saying here is works are required for justification because they are the natural outcome and thus natural evidence of a true transformation. Salvation is so much more that going to heaven when you die. When we recieve the Spirit, it is from then on constantly at work in us, molding us into the image of Christ, so yes, the natural outcome is going to be a gradual transformation of who we are and how we live our lives. Seeing this truth as well as the fact that when Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works of the law he meant the Jewish Torah has erased alot of errornous thinking from my mind, especially considering the Hyper Dispensational (Dual Gospel) ideaology.
Jerm, great point. One of the major confusions comes with the term: justification. It comes from the word "dikaioo" which means "righteous." Check this out:
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified (righteous) by faith without the deeds
of the law.
Compare to James:
James 2:21,24
Was not Abraham our father
justified (righteous) by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that
by works a man is justified (righteous),
and not by faith only.Now if James and Paul are talking about the same kind of works, then it is a clear contradiction. But they are not talking about the same kind of works. Paul is talking about not being made righteous by "works of the law." James is talking about "good works" which are works that come by obedience to faith. That is what Martin Luther did not understand.
The dual-evangel folks think that they resolve this by claiming that James is talking to Jews and Paul is talking to Gentiles, meaning that Jews must have faith and obey the law too. GARBAGE! The law NEVER brings righteousness and ALWAYS holds people in bondage. Paul actually agrees with this statement: "by works a man is justified (righteous) and not by faith only"
Romans 4
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,
his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not
impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he
was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the
righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who
also WALK....IN....THE..... STEPS....OF....THAT.....FAITH of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was
not to Abraham, or to his seed,
through the law, but through the righteousness of faithWe should see the distinction being made here regarding "good works" and "works of the law." Abraham WALKED in steps of faith, he didn't just HAVE faith. That is what James means when he says
James 2
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:
the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and
by works was faith made perfect? 23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and
not by faith only.Paul and James are talking about the same thing:
walking in steps of faith, not just having faith. And that walking by steps of faith is CONTRASTED to works of the law. Yes, when we have faith, THAT faith is counted to us for righteousness, but when WE WALK in STEPS of faith, then WE are imputed righteousness. John agrees:
1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested
to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever
abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you:
he that DOETH righteousness (justification) is righteous (justified), even as he is righteous (justified). 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
well thought out posts ! guys
love it
makes me think !
good Job , Seth!
good thoughts WW , Bradon and Jerm !
one thing I thought of while reading this
was how the works /dees and the Labour can be in vain or it can be in love
the labour of love is mentioed by Paul as a good thing/work
and the labour in vain is something that is NOT new under the Sun /Son
so I got to thinking , we first must die to our desires for the true desire of the Lord to manifest within us ..
just some more thoughts while on this I have considered :icon_flower:
God bless yas all :HeartThrob: rose
KJVRev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
TNIV 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
Quote from: Seth on September 12, 2009, 08:12:36 PM
Quote from: Jerm on September 12, 2009, 04:48:56 PM
I think Martin Luther is to blame for alot of the confusion here. Although I think he got the basic idea right, "Justification by Faith Alone" was a horrible name for his docrtine because the only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith alone" or "faith only" is written in James and it has a big NOT right in front of it. (Then again, that's why Luther wanted James taken out of the canon) Something I've had to come to grips with is the fact that justification is by faith and works. HOWEVER THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE EARN OR MERIT SALVATION. What James is saying here is works are required for justification because they are the natural outcome and thus natural evidence of a true transformation. Salvation is so much more that going to heaven when you die. When we recieve the Spirit, it is from then on constantly at work in us, molding us into the image of Christ, so yes, the natural outcome is going to be a gradual transformation of who we are and how we live our lives. Seeing this truth as well as the fact that when Paul says we are justified by faith apart from works of the law he meant the Jewish Torah has erased alot of errornous thinking from my mind, especially considering the Hyper Dispensational (Dual Gospel) ideaology.
Jerm, great point. One of the major confusions comes with the term: justification. It comes from the word "dikaioo" which means "righteous." Check this out:
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified (righteous) by faith without the deeds of the law.
Compare to James:
James 2:21,24
Was not Abraham our father justified (righteous) by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (righteous), and not by faith only.
Now if James and Paul are talking about the same kind of works, then it is a clear contradiction. But they are not talking about the same kind of works. Paul is talking about not being made righteous by "works of the law." James is talking about "good works" which are works that come by obedience to faith. That is what Martin Luther did not understand.
The dual-evangel folks think that they resolve this by claiming that James is talking to Jews and Paul is talking to Gentiles, meaning that Jews must have faith and obey the law too. GARBAGE! The law NEVER brings righteousness and ALWAYS holds people in bondage. Paul actually agrees with this statement: "by works a man is justified (righteous) and not by faith only"
Romans 4
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also WALK....IN....THE..... STEPS....OF....THAT.....FAITH of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith
We should see the distinction being made here regarding "good works" and "works of the law." Abraham WALKED in steps of faith, he didn't just HAVE faith. That is what James means when he says
James 2
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Paul and James are talking about the same thing: walking in steps of faith, not just having faith. And that walking by steps of faith is CONTRASTED to works of the law. Yes, when we have faith, THAT faith is counted to us for righteousness, but when WE WALK in STEPS of faith, then WE are imputed righteousness. John agrees:
1 John 3
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness (justification) is righteous (justified), even as he is righteous (justified).
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Great post Seth. An awesome read that really helped me here is Justification by N.T. Wright. I seriously read the whole thing in 2 days (would have been one day but I started in the car while we were on vacation and ran out of light once the sun went down :laughing7:) Anyways, I definately recommend it to anyone and everyone. I don't agree 100% with everything Wright says but nonetheless I give it Five Stars.
So, it seems that "good works" come from the heart (through the Spirit, I would assume), and "works of the law" are doing things because "it's the law," or perhaps, to get blessings. Is this, a bit of the idea you're getting at Seth?
And on another, but similar, note:
Is it not interesting that it seems there's more non-Christians that do "good works" than Christians? It seems Christians generally do "works of the law" as opposed to "good works."
Some people might insist that non-believers cannot do "good works." But who says that the Spirit is not moving in them too? I see no reason to limit God to just working in those that call themselves Christians. Non-believers (who once "when to church" or called "Christian" by their parents) might not realize it yet, but is it coincidence that many "believers" leave "the faith" and turn agnostic, atheistic, or go after a different belief system, because orthodox Christianity has horrid, anti-Christ doctrines such as eternal torment? I don't think so. God's Spirit is alive in more people than we think. After all, it's in God that ALL men live, and move, and have their being.
Quote from: Tim B on September 13, 2009, 11:24:08 PM
Is it not interesting that it seems there's more non-Christians that do "good works" than Christians? It seems Christians generally do "works of the law" as opposed to "good works."
Some people might insist that non-believers cannot do "good works." But who says that the Spirit is not moving in them too?
Gods laws apply to all people.
So if helping the needing is good works for a Christian it's alos good works for an atheist.
If that's not true then murder and adultary are not sins when done by atheists....
I even think the good works of atheists very often are more pure because they have no religion forcing them to act nice.
Man, the first creation, is capable of incredibly good works and horrendous evil works; the fruits of the tree they ate from.
Not! to be confused, though, with the works of Satan; those works of Satan are completely different.
He stands as the accuser of man to God.
Quote from: JermI think Martin Luther is to blame for alot of the confusion here.
Although I think he got the basic idea right, "Justification by Faith Alone" was a horrible name for his docrtine because the only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith alone" or "faith only" is written in James ....
What's this? Chopped liver?
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. --Rom 1
And this?
9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
--Phil 3
And more?
30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
--Romans 9
Whistling with Martin Luther, now--
30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
--1 Cor 1
And singing a new song with the church of the firstborn--
2To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
--1 Cor 1
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 13, 2009, 11:35:02 PM
Quote from: Tim B on September 13, 2009, 11:24:08 PM
Is it not interesting that it seems there's more non-Christians that do "good works" than Christians? It seems Christians generally do "works of the law" as opposed to "good works."
Some people might insist that non-believers cannot do "good works." But who says that the Spirit is not moving in them too?
Gods laws apply to all people.
So if helping the needing is good works for a Christian it's alos good works for an atheist.
If that's not true then murder and adultary are not sins when done by atheists....
I even think the good works of atheists very often are more pure because they have no religion forcing them to act nice.
Nice post, WW! I especially like the last part. It's extremely true.
Yet we have (many) orthodox evangelists going out and telling these very same atheists, these (often times) KINDER PEOPLE, that they're going to an eternal Hell hole if they don't accept Jesus. Sheesh!
Reminds me of Jesus words: "and you make them twice the sons of Gehenna that you are!"
James states the obvious when he tells us that faith without works is dead.
But what are works?
We look at that word and can get easily led astray--
"works"
G2041
ἔργον
ergon
er'-gon
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
The Protestant Reformation took this word and ran with it. Works is hard work, labour, toil, the sweat of your brow. Not that there's anything wrong with hard work. But is this what we are talking about here?
It is Adam who was condemned to working hard, bringing forth fruit by the sweat of his brow, not us. We are the second Adam.
It took me a long time to figure this out because I am naturally a very hard worker.
James himself goes on to illustrate what works are, using Abraham as his example. Abraham believed God and acted on it [obedience]. So it is the belief and then the act based on that belief that qualifies as faith and works.
But, could Abraham have believed God without that seed wherein all the nations of the world would be blessed?
Works is toil, labour, even if it is just the fruit of the Spirit biting your tongue--yes that is works, too.
But we are not the ones who labour--He is. He does all the work. And, if we are yoked together with him, his yoke is easy because we are along for the ride of our lives. He does the pulling, the heavy lifting, the impossible, the miracle, the toil, labour, and hard work--not us. Faith belongs to Him, and so do works.
36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
--John 4
Quote from: Tim B on September 13, 2009, 11:24:08 PM
So, it seems that "good works" come from the heart (through the Spirit, I would assume), and "works of the law" are doing things because "it's the law," or perhaps, to get blessings. Is this, a bit of the idea you're getting at Seth?
And on another, but similar, note:
This is the key, the bolded blue.
There are all kinds of works that seem good. That is why it is called "our RIGHTEOUSNESS" as being dirty rags. It is the righteousness that comes through faith which is the righteousness of God that is acceptable to him.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith
it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Paul understood that the righteousness of God comes by faith when he said:
1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but
I laboured more abundantly than they all:
[yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
color=red]yet not I, but Christ liveth in me[/b]: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.[/color]
He acknowledged that he was the vessel, yet in the next line, cancels himself out and acknowledges this:
Phi 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for
[it is God who works in you,
both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
That is the meaning behind "I, yet not I." It's not "I plus God." It is I.....yet NOT I. It's all credit to God who is the very worker and willer through his people.
That is why if you maintain "I, yet NOT I" in your life, you will have no reason to boast and you will be giving all glory to Christ.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2009, 01:26:14 AM
Quote from: JermI think Martin Luther is to blame for alot of the confusion here.
Although I think he got the basic idea right, "Justification by Faith Alone" was a horrible name for his docrtine because the only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith alone" or "faith only" is written in James ....
What's this? Chopped liver?
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
--Rom 1
And this?
9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
--Phil 3
And more?
30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
--Romans 9
Whistling with Martin Luther, now--
30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
--1 Cor 1
And singing a new song with the church of the firstborn--
2To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
--1 Cor 1
To the bolded blue, no of course not. The righteousness that comes by faith is exactly what this thread is about, which you explain later in #14.
The righteousness that comes by faith is described in great detail in 1 Corinthians 12.
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2009, 09:03:34 AM
James himself goes on to illustrate what works are, using Abraham as his example. Abraham believed God and acted on it [obedience]. So it is the belief and then the act based on that belief that qualifies as faith and works.
:cloud9: Amen Molly........belief = hearer, act based on that belief = doer. Be both a hearer and a doer of the Word. Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on September 14, 2009, 11:20:14 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2009, 09:03:34 AM
James himself goes on to illustrate what works are, using Abraham as his example. Abraham believed God and acted on it [obedience]. So it is the belief and then the act based on that belief that qualifies as faith and works.
:cloud9: Amen Molly........belief = hearer, act based on that belief = doer. Be both a hearer and a doer of the Word. Blessings...
Yes, amen! :thumbsup:
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the
power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,
The just (Gk - dikaios - righteous, holy) shall live by faith.18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
So this goes back to my earlier question considering my question:
If we are to be saved from sin, what part do you think that "good works" plays in salvation from sin? What IS the power of God, and how is it unto salvation?
Mark 6:7
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us
the spirit of fear;
but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
James makes the statements that works make our faith perfect/complete. Faith is INCOMPLETE without works, because works are the entire point of salvation from sin, a change of works from EVIL to GOOD (from murderer to healer, from liar to truthspeaker, from prostitute to Christ-in-marriage)...
That is how the just LIVE by faith.
Quote from: Seth on September 14, 2009, 11:40:49 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 14, 2009, 11:20:14 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 14, 2009, 09:03:34 AM
James himself goes on to illustrate what works are, using Abraham as his example. Abraham believed God and acted on it [obedience]. So it is the belief and then the act based on that belief that qualifies as faith and works.
:cloud9: Amen Molly........belief = hearer, act based on that belief = doer. Be both a hearer and a doer of the Word. Blessings...
Yes, amen! :thumbsup:
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just (Gk - dikaios - righteous, holy) shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
So this goes back to my earlier question considering my question: If we are to be saved from sin, what part do you think that "good works" plays in salvation from sin? What IS the power of God, and how is it unto salvation?
Mark 6:7
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
James makes the statements that works make our faith perfect/complete. Faith is INCOMPLETE without works, because works are the entire point of salvation from sin, a change of works from EVIL to GOOD (from murderer to healer, from liar to truthspeaker, from prostitute to Christ-in-marriage)...
That is how the just LIVE by faith.
amen Living faith , I can see the difference now between the DEAD works and the good ones :thumbsup:
James speaks of dead works LACKING FAITHor faith lacking works or one without the other :icon_flower:
two places in hebrews on the dead works /lacking faith
Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again
the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also. cool stuff guys :HeartThrob: rose
Amen Rose
Romans 14
17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
:cloud9: Amen Seth, and those are not just attributes, but the nature of a PERSON; the PERSON IS the Kingdom. Blessings....
Amen Cardinal, and the Kingdom has no end.
Quote from: Seth on September 15, 2009, 12:14:59 AM
Amen Rose
Romans 14
17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Cool Seth Card and Beloved !
Romans 14 is a fav of mine :thumbsup:
love ya all :HeartThrob: rose
One more thing--
The carnal mind cannot understand the things of God, which is why we need faith [Spirit] to do works of God. Look at the illustration James uses for works. How could we ever explain to anyone why Abraham would agree to sacrifice his own son for God, or why we would worship such a God? The carnal mind makes no sense of it. It doesn't look like good works. It just looks pagan and brutal.
But those in dialogue with God through faith to faith can see the eternal purposes of God in this story, the shadow of the Christ.
13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
14And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
--Gen 22
H3070
יהוה יראה
yehôvâh yir'eh
yeh-ho-vaw' yir-eh'
From H3068 and H7200; Jehovah will see (to it); Jehovah-Jireh, a symbolical name for Mt. Moriah: - Jehovah-jireh.
I really enjoyed this--
I have mentioned this before; but let me say it again. Do you know the difference between a "God-being" and a "God-doing?" A human being is called a human being because he or she is human. A man doesn't have to act like a human. He does not have to do so many things which are characteristic of a human to qualify him as a human being. He just is, he is a human being by birth. He is not a human doing. He is not going around doing things that humans do for the purpose of proving his birthright. That would be ridiculous!
Likewise, every son of God just is, he is a God-being, not a God-doing. If we think we have to get all of our ducks in a row to qualify, such as the proper creeds, laws, legalisms, and countless rituals, we will never make it. If it was really necessary to make sure everything was in order and stacked up perfectly before we were God-beings, I can see why it would be easy to believe in reincarnation. We would need a few more lives to get the job done. I am relieved that it is "Not of works, lest any wan should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph 2:9-l0). And let me ask, how are we going to walk in the good works? Simply by being who we are in Him. That is what makes us God-beings rather than God-doings.
Cherubim reside in carnal minds to keep the carnal men and women from entering into the Garden, from eating of the Tree of Life, and from partaking of its fruit. They stop them from becoming God-beings in the image of the first Adam. Cherubim very wisely guard the way, keeping carnality from entering in. They keep man acting like God, rather than Being who they are in God. But those who have been lifted by Life, the veil has been rent, and they enter in boldly, bypassing the Cherubim, the imaginations, figures of reality, and no longer are they God-doings, but God-beings.
If we have truly caught the vision, if we have caught the Spirit that is streaming from the heavens of revelation -- without effort, we will simply be who we are. We will not act out anything. We will be what the cross of Jesus initiated in every soul, a work that will be completed only by His Life in us.
--Elwin Roach
"I AM that which I WILL BE."
Thanks Molly ,
that is a good piece you brought out sis! :icon_flower:
we can '' just be''/resting as Gods children without ''acting out '' seems you do keep Gods law/love and honor Him as Jesus was the example ''naturally'' as the very nature of your new found bith /origin...
I always wondered about the purpose of the Cheribum/seraphim
in the Lord Gods plan , these articles helped me a bunch with my studies on them'' imagi -nations '' :winkgrin:
:HeartThrob: love ya sis ! rose
If anyone has love....that person will ACT in love. Otherwise, his love is useless to anyone but self. Is that wrong? Is that not Biblical?
A good work is not simply sitting still and knowing who you are in Christ. Who you are is intended to be Christ's workmanship ....created unto good works....prepared before that you should walk in them.
Here they are:
1 Corinthians 12
1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
1 Cor 12
27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.
1 Corinthians 13
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Love indeed does ACT. Love that does not act or result in good works is self DISGUISED as love.
QuoteLove indeed does ACT. Love that does not act or result in good works is self DISGUISED as love.
Love the scriptures Seth!
and I do agree that love in motion does produce
good fruit in the END / which is Christ :HeartThrob:
i will give an example
when i was young /20's i done something foolish
and i knew it , all knew it
but these wonderful folks who professed Christ and loved God
helped me out and I was NOT anything but a wild child mind you
this act of love towards God and me a sinner instead of judgment and hardeness of heart proved to me that I also wanted to serve this same God they did! as time went by I got to know the same God of Love they served loved and obeyed :thumbsup:
wow ! i have not thought of that in awhile but your post remined me of this testimony /witness to the God of Love and to His glory !
thanks Bro for the reminder and the Spirit of truth will set you free ! :HeartThrob: in loving Christ rose
QuoteLove indeed does ACT. Love that does not act or result in good works is self DISGUISED as love.
Yes, it does. Faith without works is dead. It can't help itself but to act. But, we act in the context that He has put us. Every small act of love is great. It is not something we will do to, it is something we are.
I guess I don't differentiate between what we do and are. If I lie, I am a liar. If I kill, I am a killer. But I understand your point, which has always been essential: we rest from OUR OWN works and it is God that causes the "good works" so that we can boast of nothing but Him.
Quote from: Seth on September 16, 2009, 08:00:30 PM
I guess I don't differentiate between what we do and are. If I lie, I am a liar. If I kill, I am a killer. But I understand your point, which has always been essential: we rest from OUR OWN works and it is God that causes the "good works" so that we can boast of nothing but Him.
Excellent Bro Seth !
so that we can boast of nothing but Him. profoundly True !
His Glory /Power WORKING though us any of us as God desires it ti be so ......... :HeartThrob: rose
Yes, we are sent out into the world as His vessels.
It is not we that live, but Christ in us!
QuoteI guess I don't differentiate between what we do and are.
This is why hypocrisy grates so much. You say one thing and do another. It's doublemindedness. One could even say it is evil.
It is why Jesus says, out of the heart, the mouth speaks. It is what comes out of the heart that is important, not what goes in. The act itself is coming from what is inside of the man, not from what is outside. It is why Jesus was always berating the Pharisees, why he told them they had nothing inside but dead bones [the letter of the Law]. Love acts inspite of what is going on outside, not because of it. It works against death.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.--Mat 23
I have no interest in the religions or the governments of the world, not one whit.
However, it's the people encountered each day that I embrace.
I agree Molly. It is what is inside that counts. "For it is God in you both to will and to work of his good pleasure." :thumbsup:
JAMES TO THE TWELVE TRIBES;
Chapter 3:
7 For every nature, both of wild beasts and flying creatures, both of reptiles and those of the salt sea, is tamed and has been tamed by human nature.
8 Yet the tongue can no man tame -- a turbulent evil, distended with death-carrying venom.
9 With it we are blessing the Lord and Father, and with it we are cursing men who have come to be in accord with God's likeness.
10 Out of the same mouth is coming forth blessing and cursing. There is no need, my brethren, for this to become thus.
11 No spring out of the same hole is venting the sweet and the bitter.
12 No fig tree, my brethren, can produce olives, nor a grapevine figs. Thus neither does brine produce sweet water.
13 Who is wise and an adept among you? Let him show his works by an ideal behavior in meekness of wisdom.
14 Now if you are having bitter jealousy and faction in your heart, are you not vaunting against and falsifying the truth?
15 This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal.
16 For wherever jealousy and faction are, there is turbulence also, and every bad practice.
17 Now the wisdom from above is first, indeed, pure, thereupon peaceable, lenient, compliant, bulging with mercy and good fruits, undiscriminating, unfeigned.
18 Now the fruit of righteousness is being sown in peace for those making peace.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 16, 2009, 08:16:38 PM
Yes, we are sent out into the world as His vessels.
It is not we that live, but Christ in us!
:thumbsup: His Spirit is forever/ always :HeartThrob: rose
raeding through this thread, I discovered that my assumptions were proven wrong! :Sparkletooth:
Anyway...have you defined what you think the term "works of the law" means?
I think it has been completely misunderstood. I think that the many who do not understand Paul's writings have twisted his sayings as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction....but, what do you think it means?
peace, dmatic
Quote from: dmatic on January 30, 2010, 10:30:03 PM
raeding through this thread, I discovered that my assumptions were proven wrong! :Sparkletooth:
Anyway...have you defined what you think the term "works of the law" means?
I think it has been completely misunderstood. I think that the many who do not understand Paul's writings have twisted his sayings as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction....but, what do you think it means?
peace, dmatic
works of the Law expose the lacking in each and every one of us
works of the Law works death in each of us the ministration of death
i love Romans 7 and 8 for this reason it is explained thoughly in these two chapters just how we die in ADAM :icon_flower:and our hope is than in Christ only , not of ourselves
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin,
working death in me by that which is good; that
sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
our carnal nature than
must die by the law of a Righteous GOD !
in order for the law of Life to set us free of being slaves to sin .
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,
condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
the judging the sin in the flesh makes us all guilty before God
than we are made new creatures in Christ
born again of the Spirit and Word of God .. that is our new life hid in Christ ,,
PS
to be completely honest with you right now
for me ,i am still dying Yet Gaining Christ by faith in HIS will and desire to save our soul and body to His Spirit and Life . :icon_flower:
rosered< you wrote:
Quoteour carnal nature than must die by the law of a Righteous GOD !
in order for the law of Life to set us free of being slaves to sin .
Very True!
So, are saying that the "works of the Law" of a righteous God are a good thing?
If so, how can they be considered a bad thing?
peace, dmatic
Quote from: dmatic on February 01, 2010, 08:33:48 PM
rosered< you wrote:Quoteour carnal nature than must die by the law of a Righteous GOD !
in order for the law of Life to set us free of being slaves to sin .
Very True!
So, are saying that the "works of the Law" of a righteous God are a good thing?
If so, how can they be considered a bad thing?
peace, dmatic
Hi Dmatic ,
it is a very good thing ..
Paul explains well in Romans 7 and 8 better than I could
the New Living Translation .. Romans 7 Romans 7
No Longer Bound to the Law
1 Now, dear brothers and sisters[a]—you who are familiar with the law—don't you know that the law applies only while a person is living? 2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her. 3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God. 5 When we were controlled by our old nature,
sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
God's Law Reveals Our Sin
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet."[c] 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law's commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commands for its own evil purposes.
Struggling with Sin
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate.
16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it. 18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[d] I want to do what is right, but I can't.
19 I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong.
22 I love God's law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind.
This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.
24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
two natures working in one person causing emnity /warring
this is where JESUS does His greatest work in us being Lord of the dead and living .
Romans 8
tearing down the middle wall of seperation making one new man/child of God from all nations the inclusion ... ephesians 2 :14
11 Don't forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called "uncircumcised heathens" by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.
14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. 16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.
17 He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.
Romans 8
Life in the Spirit
1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2 And because you belong to him, the power[a] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. 3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.[c] So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
5 Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. 8 That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) 10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life[d] because you have been made right with God. 11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
12 Therefore, dear brothers and sisters,[e] you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature,[f] you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children[g] of God.
15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God's Spirit when he adopted you as his own children.[h] Now we call him, "Abba, Father." 16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God's children. 17 And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God's glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.
The Future Glory
18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. 19 For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. 20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God's children in glorious freedom from death and decay. 22 For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children,[j] including the new bodies he has promised us. 24 We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don't need to hope[k] for it. 25 But if we look forward to something we don't yet have, we must wait patiently and confidently.)
26 And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words. 27 And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers[l] in harmony with God's own will. 28 And we know that God causes everything to work together[m] for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. 29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
Nothing Can Separate Us from God's Love
31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won't he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God's right hand, pleading for us.
35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ's love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, "For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep."[n]) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,- neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord
can you tell i really like the New Living Translation ?
:thumbsup:
Yes I can tell!
This topic can be very confusing, I think. I will try to tread 'softly'. There is a :LAW of sin and death...there is also a Law of liberty, to which you made mention.
I think we walk in the law of liberty when we follow the Spirit. When we are "keeping" the law, we are not sinnning, so we are not walking, then, in the law of sin and death.
The "works of the law", I think, are the things that were "added because of transgressions to the law, that the people were to do, for "justification" or forgiveness.
The "works of the law" are NOT, in my opinion, simple obedience to the law's commands.
I think Paul was saying that those "old covenant" works of the law, that required "sacrifices" etc, are not what justify us from our disobedience.
I've got to go now, but will try to address this better when I can...
Peace, dmatic
Quote from: rosered on February 02, 2010, 01:07:55 AMcan you tell i really like the New Living Translation ?
I could tell; but I don't want to lie to much :icon_joker:
Quotesinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
Lee! Did you read that? :laughing7:
Quote19 I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
Sounds a bit like shifting blame...
.....sounds a bit like shifting blame....
what about this...Lev 10;8 he is to cast lots for the two goats
- one for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall
bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord ,and sacrifice it for a sin
offering.But the goat chosen by lot AS THE SCAPEGOAT shall be
presented alive before the Lord for making atonement by
sending it into the desert as a scapegoat. :mshock:
v 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites- all their sins..and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the desert in the care of a man appointed for the task.The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a solitary place; and the man shall release it in the desert.
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2010, 07:13:26 PM.....sounds a bit like shifting blame....
Very similar.
It's not that I didn't know about those verses. I understand exactly what it is about, but it's hard to grasp for me.
I'm a sinner. I'm bad etc etc. But it's not me but something in me.
It's me but it's not me.
It's either me or 'that something'.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 02, 2010, 07:55:06 PM
Quote from: sheila on February 02, 2010, 07:13:26 PM.....sounds a bit like shifting blame....
Very similar.
It's not that I didn't know about those verses. I understand exactly what it is about, but it's hard to grasp for me.
I'm a sinner. I'm bad etc etc. But it's not me but something in me.
It's me but it's not me.
It's either me or 'that something'.
The way I look at it: it's you as led by whatever master you submit to, making the true enemy that God is against to be that master (sin) not you. If you were the source of sin, than you would have to be eradicated, and not metaphorically, for God to cleanse his creation of sin. Paul is simply revealing the master/slave relationship of sin. Suppose a baseball bat hits you in the head. The bat hit you, but really the one wielding the bat did it. That's the closest illustration I can make of how I understand it.
What's the :thumbsup: for Sheila? :laughing7:
In case you agree with what I wrote: I don't understand what I wrote.
In case you thought it was a joke: It wasn't.
Seriously it's a contradiction for me. A paradox if you wish.
According to (changes) in a/the law I can be a criminal or a good guy.
I can understand that.
If I have a kind heart and a pure soul I'm a good guy. If I have a black soul and and a cold heart I'm a bad guy.
I can understand that too.
But the verse states: I'm bad because I've black soul. But luckily it's not my soul. That the same as saying Sheila is a thief because someone in her street is in jail so Sheila is no thief.
Indeed the Spirit is willing but
the flesh is weak .. there is your paradox :winkgrin:
did we not see here in Matt 26 :41 just how Jesus explained to Peter
not to sleep in sorrow his flesh being tempted ? and the key was to watch and pray in the Spirit to the Father because the flesh is weakkkkkkk!!
and Jesus Himself shows us the weakness of his own flesh to let the cup of suffering pass , yet His desire in the Spirit was as the Father chose His course in obedience ....
39 He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."
40 Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, "Couldn't you watch with me even one hour? 41 Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!"
42 Then Jesus left them a second time and prayed, "My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away[g] unless I drink it, your will be done." 43 When he returned to them again, he found them sleeping, for they couldn't keep their eyes open.
44 So he went to pray a third time, saying the same things again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said, "Go ahead and sleep. Have your rest. But look—the time has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Up, let's be going. Look, my betrayer is here!"
I am starting to get this with the NLT , just went out and bought a hard copy at Wally world today ... hee hee , very helpful .
you know i do love the KJV and keep it to look up all the strongs and greek Hebrew stuff , but this " new tongue / language " New Living Translation is much easier to grasp ,
Thanks all and you dmatic , for keeping this thread going :icon_flower:
The blame has been shifted! As it should be :bigGrin:. "Who shall deliver me from this body of death"?
Rom 7:24-25 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Paul defines our dilemma. Even as we try to do good we often find evil with us. This evil is often the mixture in our motives. What Paul is describing is chaos, formless and void. But when the Logos comes, "Let there be light", there is a separation made- Light and darkness. When we first believe, the living word divides asunder soul and spirit and makes manifest the thoughts and motives of the heart. Sin in the flesh is condemned in the body of Christ on the cross and we "enter in" to that death by faith. We also receive resurrection life in the spirit, in the new creation in the inner man, "Christ in you the hope of glory". But it is a seed. It is a measure of yeast in a bushel of meal. It must grow as we grow in grace. It is also a stewardship, we grow as we walk in the Spirit and Abide in Christ. In the meantime, we find that "we all stumble in many ways." Yet, we are in the fight between light and darkness as servants of the light, so we bring our stumblings to the light. The enemy within must "Be reckoned dead", that old man who was slain at repentance and buried at baptism would beckon us to return to Egypt. The challenge is to press on in the wilderness, where "every unbelieving member must perish", till we find ourselves ready to cross the Jordan and take possession of the promises.
"We have these great and precious promises that by them we might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust, therefore applying all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue....."
For everyone whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...
So as we have already been judged for sin, if we have beheld through the eye of faith, the serpent on the pole, the sin that was killing us, slain in the body of Christ crucified. The bite/poison/sting of sin is healed. Now where as we were once serving sin unto greater sin, now we are serving righteousness unto greater (progressive) righteousness (Ro 6). As the sharper than any two edged sword of the quick and active word continues to divide, growing us through trial, the spirit man ascends,experientially seated in the heavenlies, taking possession of the promised land(divine nature). The old manis "mortified", "reckoned dead", "put off".
Eph 4:20-24 But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
We do not conquer him by law and works, he will defeat us every time in that war. We conquer him through the separation that has made- "reckoning him dead". Understanding that it is no longer I that sin, but the old man, sin working in my flesh. I reaffirm my agreement with God in this process of growing in grace by "confession". Bringing it to God. Laying it at the altar. "I do not agree with this", "forgive me", "change me", "heal me." I grow in the victory this forgiveness and healing affords by "walking in the Spirit". The more I walk in the Spirit the less I fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If I am under condemnation I will lose the victory, back under law, back in chaos.
Rom 8:3-11 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 2:1-2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ!!! There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!!!!
Sometimes as little ones, babes in Christ, we are often availing ourselves of this forgiveness and propitiation as we learn humility, which is the key to growing in grace( a haughty spirit comes before a fall, you will teach me truth in the inner man, a broken and a contrite heart you will never cast out). The blood is sufficient, though the lessons be hard. As we get set free from "self" righteousness, into the righteousness of Christ which is by faith, then the fruitful works which are by love and the manifestation of the divine nature spring forth as "fruit of the Spirit"(over these things there is no law).
Rev 22:1-5 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb: in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, is a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations; and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him, and they shall see His face, and His name is upon their foreheads, and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign--to the ages of the ages.
again back to Romans 8 for the explaination
the Bible has the answers that answer when the questions are raised
3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin's control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
5 Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. 7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. 8 That's why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
and the Law of Liberty is the SPIRIT teaching correcting leading guiding and helping us grow in Gods truth and Grace Jesus Christ ...
imo of course ,,
the law of moses is the schoolmaster part that exposes the sin and shame to bring us all to repentance and CHANGE for the better! that leads us to Christ , its all about Him .. and what He has done and will do for you on a personal level you have never got from anyone before
imo , but willing to listen to others as well :thumbsup:
Mmm, it will cost me a few grand to travel to Wally World.
And I hate to long queues at Disney world.
QuoteIndeed the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak .. there is your paradox
Not really. If flesh + spirit is me then I'm the sinner.
If flesh and spirit is separate only one is the sinner.
Hummm :mblush:
That is a really good post Eagleway / John
I do agree that Paul was showing us the dilema
for me it is the seperation noted the mind where the spirit dwells is already captive of the Lord its the Body / flesh that has to go on into with the soul to be complete its a 3 part saving grace work of the Lord
to me
when those whom dwell in the heavens they have the same mind as as the Spirit and are Christ 'possesion
but woe to the earth and sea the devil has come down to you and he only has a short time
the flesh/ mortal bodies only lives maybe 80 years more or less
to me the sea could be souls ?? its compared to many nations tongues peoples the life in the soul seat of appetites what we crave and desire
if than it is the desires in the Holy Spirit will not the Lord judge our hearts and mercifully save us to completion / perfection than ?
:icon_flower:
In the context of Romans 8, the flesh is the old man, reckoned dead. The spirit is the new man. I am not my flesh, in this case. I in fact, as the new man, am in a spiritual war with the world, the flesh, and the devil. The spirit lusts(for dominion over me) against the flesh and the flesh lusts(for dominon over me) against the spirit, so that I cannot always to the things I ought. As I grow in grace, "Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord", I am transformed, renewed in the spirit of my mind, into the new man who is reigning through the righteousness of Christ. I cannot reform myself- that is the futility of the law. Until I see the separation between the old man who I reckoned dead on a cross through faith in Jesus, and me- the new man created in Jesus Christ for good works (but works that spring up as fruit out of grace and love), I can never be free from condemnation, and I buzz around like a fly with one wing.
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 02, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
Mmm, it will cost me a few grand to travel to Wally World.
And I hate to long queues at Disney world.
QuoteIndeed the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak .. there is your paradox
Not really. If flesh + spirit is me then I'm the sinner.
If flesh and spirit is separate only one is the sinner.
Hummm :mblush:
read on my dear friend WW
it seems the devil has come down to this ! and will not prevail against Gods will that we be saved there is where your faith that precious faith in what God can do for you and what Jesus Christ has already done that wins!!
rev 12 :12
12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens!
And you who live in the heavens, rejoice!/ mind of Christ this obedience and hearing what the Spirit is saying with a new heart to understand But terror will come on the earth and the sea,
for the devil has come down to you in great anger,
knowing that he has little time."
13 When the dragon realized that he had been
thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle so she could fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness. There she would be cared for and protected from the dragon[c] for a time, times, and half a time.
your woman is your soul and Jesus is your new husband He is the head of authority in your new submissive role the old man adam died making the new husband you are now joined to Christ
making our bodies fruitful to bear godly offspring which is good deeds /works of the Spirit not the flesh anylonger old adam is dust for the serpent / satan to chow down on /eat to nothingness
just my opinion , or how I see things :icon_flower:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 02, 2010, 09:19:56 PM
In the context of Romans 8, the flesh is the old man, reckoned dead. The spirit is the new man. I am not my flesh, in this case. I in fact, as the new man, am in a spiritual war with the world, the flesh, and the devil. The spirit lusts(for dominion over me) against the flesh and the flesh lusts(for dominon over me) against the spirit, so that I cannot always to the things I ought. As I grow in grace, "Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord", I am transformed, renewed in the spirit of my mind, into the new man who is reigning through the righteousness of Christ. I cannot reform myself- that is the futility of the law. Until I see the separation between the old man who I reckoned dead on a cross through faith in Jesus, and me- the new man created in Jesus Christ for good works (but works that spring up as fruit out of grace and love), I can never be free from condemnation, and I buzz around like a fly with one wing.
YES !!! :thumbsup:
This is cool, :) almost like a chat. I believe the tools are there through grace and the enlightment of the word to come, "to a mature man" in Christ. Not that we are perfect, as Paul said to the Phillipians, but to the point where we are "reigning in life" as overcomers. Speaking the truth in love and growing up in all aspects unto the Head, even Christ. I think we don't see it as we would like to because it can only be fulfilled in the body of Christ, when it is functioning as the fulness of Him who fills all in all, under His headship. As we all know, this is difficult today, because the body is scattered, or cancerous, or whatever it is, and we rarely find that kind of fellowship that allows the grace of God to come to full fruition, as described in Ephesians 4. Of course, thats just my opinion.
Eph 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named, that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man, that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded, that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height, to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled--to all the fulness of God; and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us, to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
OHHHHH GLORRRYYY!!!!! :dsunny:
Sorry, every now and then I get a little pentecostal HAHAHA, but it is SO glorious.
Eph 4:8-16 wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' -- and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things-- and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers, unto the perfecting(maturing/completing/finishing) of the saints, for a work of ministration(the ministry of reconciliation), for a building up of the body of the Christ, till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ, that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray, and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head--the Christ; from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.
When God made Adam in the beginning they wer male and female
the male / female soul nephesh
feminine noun ...the old man has to die in order for the soul and body to be peserved blameless
1Thess 5 14 Brothers and sisters, we urge you to warn those who are lazy. Encourage those who are timid. Take tender care of those who are weak. Be patient with everyone.
15 See that no one pays back evil for evil, but always try to do good to each other and to all people.
16 Always be joyful. 17 Never stop praying. 18 Be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you who belong to Christ Jesus.
19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit. 20 Do not scoff at prophecies, 21 but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. 22 Stay away from every kind of evil.
Paul's Final Greetings
23 Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. 24 God will make this happen, for he who calls you is faithful. 25 Dear brothers and sisters, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brothers and sisters with Christian love.[c]
27 I command you in the name of the Lord to read this letter to all the brothers and sisters.
28 May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
1 Corinthians 15:10
No,
I worked harder than all of them--
yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
The same Paul who wrote Romans 7 wrote that intentionally contradicting thought. When Paul says "NOT I" he says that in concert with "I" to show a deeper level of influence so influential and invisible, sovereign and powerful as to both preserve and also NEGATE his "I." This is showing how much of a vessel we are to spiritual influences beyond our meager power as humans, and places the glory of salvation from sin on God, who is working behind the scenes to empower and transform us even at the times we think we are doing it ourselves.
Quote from: eagleswayThanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ!!! There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!!!!
Just wanted to add an often forgotten sentence to that above quote.
"Thanks be to God through our Lord Jesus Christ!!! There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus!!!! ........
who walk not after the flesh, but [who walk] after the Spirit. "
Quote from: eaglesway on February 02, 2010, 09:31:19 PM
This is cool, :) almost like a chat. I believe the tools are there through grace and the enlightment of the word to come, "to a mature man" in Christ. Not that we are perfect, as Paul said to the Phillipians, but to the point where we are "reigning in life" as overcomers. Speaking the truth in love and growing up in all aspects unto the Head, even Christ. I think we don't see it as we would like to because it can only be fulfilled in the body of Christ, when it is functioning as the fulness of Him who fills all in all, under His headship. As we all know, this is difficult today, because the body is scattered, or cancerous, or whatever it is, and we rarely find that kind of fellowship that allows the grace of God to come to full fruition, as described in Ephesians 4. Of course, thats just my opinion.
Eph 3:14-21 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named, that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man, that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded, that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height, to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled--to all the fulness of God; and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us, to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
OHHHHH GLORRRYYY!!!!! :dsunny:
Sorry, every now and then I get a little pentecostal HAHAHA, but it is SO glorious.
Eph 4:8-16 wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' -- and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things-- and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers, unto the perfecting(maturing/completing/finishing) of the saints, for a work of ministration(the ministry of reconciliation), for a building up of the body of the Christ, till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ, that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray, and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head--the Christ; from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.
Amen !!!
we watch , wait and pray in faith in the Spirit to a powerful and Mighty God though Jesus Christ those precious promises and salvation is even more nearer today!!! :icon_flower:
Amen Seth, this is our stewardship, "walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." The abiding in the vine that bears eternal fruit, as opposed to the withering and pruning that comes upon those who do not "press into knowing Him".
Quote from: rosered on February 02, 2010, 09:25:43 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on February 02, 2010, 09:19:56 PM
In the context of Romans 8, the flesh is the old man, reckoned dead. The spirit is the new man. I am not my flesh, in this case. I in fact, as the new man, am in a spiritual war with the world, the flesh, and the devil. The spirit lusts(for dominion over me) against the flesh and the flesh lusts(for dominon over me) against the spirit, so that I cannot always to the things I ought. As I grow in grace, "Beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord", I am transformed, renewed in the spirit of my mind, into the new man who is reigning through the righteousness of Christ. I cannot reform myself- that is the futility of the law. Until I see the separation between the old man who I reckoned dead on a cross through faith in Jesus, and me- the new man created in Jesus Christ for good works (but works that spring up as fruit out of grace and love), I can never be free from condemnation, and I buzz around like a fly with one wing.
YES !!! :thumbsup:
Make that a double Yes!!!
The problem that often arises, is that "walking in the Spirit" , and "abiding" is taught as "not sinning", or "keeping the law", or "doing good things" so much that walking in the Spirit is actually taught in a way that throws people back on the power of their own flesh and binds them into cycles of failure and condemnation. This is why, IMO, Paul spends so much time making it clear that it is forgiveness and grace and the propitiation of Christ, accessed through the freely given power of the Holy Spirit, that brings the victory- and why He reiterates the "Not me but grace working in me", which He does in all his epistles.
Walking in the Spirit is reckoning the old man dead, even to the power to save himself by being good, and learning to walk out of fellowship with God in the spirit- which is the fountain of living water, and the only resource for victory, and depends upon a "full assurance" of His love and good will towards us expressed as grace- "help in the time of need".
He that has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.
I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him until that day.
Abiding in fellowship through love and forgiveness is the key to walking in the spirit. Perfect love cast out all fear, and the fear of death is behind most of the works of the flesh.
I really think most Christians today, are taken, soon after they become alive to Christ, bound and fettered and told to drink from the befouled well of the traditions of men. Then they are fed from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and put back under the fear of death by the foul teaching that the gospel is law and if you run afoul of it you will burn forever. And oh by the way, God doesn't really want to fellowship with you until you are holy as he is holy, which means, since He never does anything wrong, and holiness is about what you do, I just need to get by as best I can and hope for the best- or walk away before my misery overruns me, or pretend I am holy enough and become a "judge and teacher of the law" and put others in bondage to me.
I believe walking in the flesh vs. walking in the Spirit is this
Romans 8
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Mortifying the deeds of the body is indeed "not sinning." However the reason Spirit walkers are able to be not sinning rather than walking according to the flesh and dying (in sin), is because of the influence and power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, as it says in Romans 2, they do the things of the law, by NATURE. In other words, it is not because the letter tells us not to sin, that we are enabled to not sin, it is because the Spirit changes the nature so that we do not want to sin in the first place. That power becomes more evident the more one matures.
fellas
this is where faith makes all the difference
one mans conscience verses another mans conscience and how loving maturity really does cover a multitude of sins ...
and how to define sin ...may well put up the whole 16 chapters of Romans is just really good stuff ...
Romans 14
The Danger of Criticism
1 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong.
2 For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables.
3 Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them.
4 Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him judge whether they are right or wrong. And with the Lord's help, they will do what is right and will receive his approval........................
5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.
6 Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him.
Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God.
7 For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8 If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.
10 So why do you condemn another believer[a]? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For the Scriptures say,
"'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bend to me,
and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"
12 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God.
13 So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.
14 I know and am convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat.
But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.
15 And if another believer is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don't let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died.
16 Then you will not be criticized for doing something you believe is good. 17 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God, and others will approve of you, too. 19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up.
20 Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, all foods are acceptable, but it is wrong to eat something if it makes another person stumble.
21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another believer to stumble.
22 You may believe there's nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who don't feel guilty for doing something they have decided is right. 23 But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.
we are to eat the Lords flesh and drink His blood honorably and with grace towards one another to glorify Him ...
Quote from: eaglesway on February 02, 2010, 10:06:04 PM
I really think most Christians today, are taken, soon after they become alive to Christ, bound and fettered and told to drink from the befouled well of the traditions of men. Then they are fed from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and put back under the fear of death by the foul teaching that the gospel is law and if you run afoul of it you will burn forever. And oh by the way, God doesn't really want to fellowship with you until you are holy as he is holy, which means, since He never does anything wrong, and holiness is about what you do, I just need to get by as best I can and hope for the best- or walk away before my misery overruns me, or pretend I am holy enough and become a "judge and teacher of the law" and put others in bondage to me.
Agreed ,
a self righteous attitude is the same anti christ spirit the Lord warns of
if it were possible even the very elect would be decieved ....
minded me of Luke 16 Jesus telling how the children of light are not as shrewd as needed to be
7 "'And how much do you owe my employer?' he asked the next man. 'I owe him 1,000 bushels of wheat,' was the reply. 'Here,' the manager said, 'take the bill and change it to 800 bushels'
8 "The rich man had to admire the dishonest rascal for being so shrewd.
And
it is true that the children of this world are more shrewd in dealing with the world around them than are the children of the light. 9
Here's the lesson: Use your worldly resources to benefit others and make friends. Then, when your earthly possessions are gone, they will welcome you to an eternal home. 10 "If you are
faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones.
But if you
are dishonest in little things,
you won't be honest with greater responsibilities. 11 And if you are untrustworthy about worldly wealth, who will trust you with the true riches of heaven? 12
And if you are not faithful with other people's things, why should you be trusted with things of your own? last line sounds like you cannot help yourself much less anyone else :dontknow:
Here's the balance:
Galatians 4
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
What I get from that is that, yes there are times when it is not so evident what is a sin, if it's something like "is it ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols if my conscious says no, but legally it is ok by God" VS .....witchcraft. The difference is that the former seeks to please God, while the latter serves the flesh.
But what is fairly evident is that the definition of "walking according to the flesh" is to be "fulfilling the lusts of the flesh" and the opposite is "walking by the Spirit" is to NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
In Romans 14, I don't think Paul is talking about the lusts of the flesh, which are evident. I think he is talking about confusion over doctrine and how when it comes to a dispute about what doctrinal practices are well and good, that is between the Lord and them BECAUSE they are seeking to please God.
However, those who walk by the flesh, do NOT seek to please God which is why their sins are evident and clear. There is no real gray area about "hatred" as to whether that is a sin, even if the person who has hatred believes they are right. Those who hate their brothers do not seek to please God in the first place.
right on Seth :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on February 02, 2010, 09:54:50 PM
The problem that often arises, is that "walking in the Spirit" , and "abiding" is taught as "not sinning", or "keeping the law", or "doing good things" so much that walking in the Spirit is actually taught in a way that throws people back on the power of their own flesh and binds them into cycles of failure and condemnation. This is why, IMO, Paul spends so much time making it clear that it is forgiveness and grace and the propitiation of Christ, accessed through the freely given power of the Holy Spirit, that brings the victory- and why He reiterates the "Not me but grace working in me", which He does in all his epistles.
Walking in the Spirit is reckoning the old man dead, even to the power to save himself by being good, and learning to walk out of fellowship with God in the spirit- which is the fountain of living water, and the only resource for victory, and depends upon a "full assurance" of His love and good will towards us expressed as grace- "help in the time of need".
He that has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.
I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him until that day.
Abiding in fellowship through love and forgiveness is the key to walking in the spirit. Perfect love cast out all fear, and the fear of death is behind most of the works of the flesh.
Indeed, and love is the keeping of His commandements. This is also the abiding...those who love Him abide in Him...those who love Him will keep His commandments. Is this what you are saying?
peace, dmatic
Because love fulfills the law, through the fruit of the spirit, against which their is no law, yes, love is keeping His commandments. We needed the law to show us our need for grace. We need the Spirit to empower our inner man(Eph 3:16) and transform us into the image of Christ through koinonea (2Cor3:15-18), or we cannot love, even when we desire to (Romans 7:22,23), because the flesh gets in the way. We need to be set free from condemnation (Ro 8:1-5) so that we can fellowship with the Father in the "new and living way"(Heb 10:18-20), because that connection to the vine(Jn 15) is the source of grace. Grace is the source of everything. If we go back to the law, and our own strength, we start to whither, and eventually will get pruned and thrown into the fire. Not the fire of the ETers tho. The fire of 1 Cor. 3:11-15 and Mat 3:10-12.
Thanks Eaglesway...I can see you're deep...so I hope you don't mind if I "mine" a little more from you with my questions?
I don't know what koinonea is...does it relate to money or
coins? You're not preaching the prosperity gospel are you? :laughing7: People have told me to watch out for that!
I would ask you for your definition of 'grace'. You say it is the source of everything. Are you saying grace is God? I suppose when any of us extend "grace' we are acting like Him, but that doesn't mean we are Him...does it? they also told me to watch out for You are God teachings! :dontknow: Most certainly we cannot do anything without Him! We could not even fail to keep His commandments, let alone keep them without Him! Who is saying anything about trying to do anything without Him? We cannot walk even according to the flesh without Him. However, we do need to learn to walk according to the Spirit to escape condemnation...this is grace...When He teaches us how to do that.
But, you say:
QuoteIf we go back to the law, and our own strength, we start to whither, and eventually will get pruned and thrown into the fire.
What do you mean by "go back to the law"? I think this is where my "confusion" comes when trying to understand what it is that you suggest....in order for us to love and keep God's commandments. You reccommend that we not go back to His Law?
peace, dmatic
I believe
Hi dmatic
Koinonea is a Greek work meaning fellowship/oneness. When I say grace is the source of everything, I am saying just what you said-of ourselves we can do nothing. Actually, I should have said, "God is the source and His grace provides us access to everything we need through the Holy Spirit." When believers get the cart before the horse, trying to "obey" commandments and accomplish works for God without abiding in fellowship with Him through a broken and a contrite heart (humble enjoyment of His presence & forgiveness), they frustrate the grace of God, and wind up in self condemnation, or pride. Many believers "go back under the law" because they are trying to serve God in the letter of the word, rather than in the Spirit. Their hearts may be right, but their understanding is unfruitful.
Walking according to the Spirit is walking in abiding fellowship in the love of God. It is only as my soul thirsts for the living God that the overcoming life in the Spirit can be activated in me. This higher law of love is the perfect law of liberty- the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus- the glorious liberty of the sons of God. It fulfills and far exceeds the law contained in ordinances, which was a shadow of that which was to come. "Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me, 'I come to do thy will O God'." "Nevertheless not my will but thine be done."
Fruitfulness in the kingdom comes from abiding in the vine (Jn 15). Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The divine nature is the life flowing through the whole vine. "That being rooted and grounded in love you may be filled up unto all the fulness of God"(Eph 3).
"As you received the Spirit so also walk ye in the Spirit". How did we receive the Spirit? By grace through faith....by hearing with faith....by deeply thirsting for the fountain of living waters.
Peace, John
:thumbsup: well said, John .. :icon_flower:
Yes, well said :thumbsup:
Ephesians 2
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The point: We were once slaves to the flesh and the "cravings of our sinful nature, following its desires and thoughts" being therefore objects of wrath under the Law.
The solution, to be saved by Grace not by works of the law, but by being created in Christ Jesus to do good works, therefore being HIS workmanship. The question is naturally, HOW are we saved by grace, which eaglesway is basically saying, which is:
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching (Gk. paiduo - chastening, chastising) us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
There you have it. Grace teaches us to be redeemed from all iniquity, to be purified, to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts: SALVATION FROM SIN. Whoo hoo!
But that is so key to what eaglesway is saying, which is that the grace does not come by our own selves, because works of the LAW, by the LETTER and not by the Spirit have no power to teach us (through chastisement - "despise thou not the chastening of the Lord") what Titus 2 says grace does teach us.
Characterized by kindness and love.
peacemaker
Amen peacemaker, This "character" is the divine nature. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, which includes legalism, self righteousness and the traditions of men, in addition to the sins that everybody "knows" such as witchcraft, fornication, theft and drunkenness. Today, the religious sins such as emulations, factiousness(party spirit), selfish ambition and outbursts of wrath are frequently ignored because we are not teaching Christianity as being pre-eminently about partaking in the divine nature- "For all those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son." The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness precisely because it enables us to become partakers of the divine nature- lovers of righteousness chiefly characterized by kindness and love.
The Pharisees were not, for the most part I believe, fornicators and witches and drunkards, yet they did not have the love of God in them, they crucified the son of God, and I fear we crucify Him afresh all to often today, doing despite to the Spirit of Grace, through our religious sins and quenching the Holy Spirit.
I love those verses Seth, and I note that it is both the lusts of the flesh and of the mind that the process of sanctification is working out of us. The "gnosis" approach to Christ is often just the pleasures of the mind approaching the Logos as if it were a system of logic rather than the living oracle of God. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us through blood(mercy), water(teaching) and fire(discipline) until the love is manifestly flowing in and through all our devotion and service to God, and our fellowship with people. Awesome isn't it?
Rom 5:1-5 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God. And not only so , but we also boast in the tribulations, knowing that the tribulation doth work endurance; and the endurance, experience; and the experience, hope; and the hope doth not make ashamed, because the love of God hath been poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit that hath been given to us.
To the Praise of the Glory of His Grace, John
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Good posts eaglesway...may I ask a question? (I know, I just did :laughing7:)
You wrote:
QuoteGrace teaches us to deny ungodliness, which includes legalism, self righteousness and the traditions of men...
May i ask how you define legalism...because I think grace also teaches us to deny "illegalism".
Peace, dmatic
Hi d, Sorry, this is a little long- but it is what it is..... my answer :laughing7:
Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh; but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.
In romans chapters 1 & 2 Paul teaches us that those who keep the law written in their hearts are jews even if they don't know it. He also teaches that Jews who stand on the law but do not know the heart of the lawgiver are not Jews, though they have Jewish parents and knowledge of the law and the prophets, as our Lord also taught( I can from these stones raise up children to Abraham.....Think not you have Abraham as your father.....You are like Cain....The devil is your father)
Rom 7:4-6 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Only a revelation of Jesus Christ suffices for righteousness, but that revelation is a manifestation of love and known only by God who sees (heb 4:12) the secrets of the heart, "Many will say unto Me on that day 'Lord, Lord'....I will tell them depart from me you lawless ones I never knew you." "Knowing" Jesus- a union of love in a broken and a contrite heart- is the new law that fulfills the old law. The old husband of the righteous is dead, the new husband is "the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus." Such as are in Him through this new love covenant do not serve sin, because they are in the new nature- tho they still wrestle with the world, the flesh and the devil. The mark of the prize of their "upward call" is to overcome.
2Co 3:1-18 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation( OT law) has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness(Christ in you) abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit(by the Spirit of the Lord).
Those who are still in the letter have a veil over their faces. When they read the word they only see the letter. They cannot receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God, so they do not know the hope of their calling, the riches of His inheritance in the saints and the surpassing greatness of His power towards us who believe(Ephesians 1:12). They are falling in the wilderness. They cannot enter the promised land. They are walking in circles under the discipline of God, yet with his grace- but outside His rest.
Rom 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Misplaced zeal is often at the heart of "legalism" which is approaching the new covenant from the letter, from the commandments, from the mind-first soul. It is those who are led by the Spirit who are the sons of God, they are being transformed by the renewing of their minds, serving in the newness of the Spirit, not in the fading oldness of the letter. When you have "Christ in you the hope of glory" you do not need the law, you have the divine nature, the mind of Christ, the incorruptible seed of the living word and the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.
Gal 4:1-5 Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:22-26 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai(Heb 12:18-21) in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above(Heb12:22-25) is free; she is our mother.
Their are many Christians who are like Ismael, fathered by the spirit (Abraham) but mothered by the law (Hagar) and acting like Ishmael- they have a blessing and are a great nation but "their hands is against every man"(divisive, not united, no peace). Their are also Christians who are fathered by the spirit (Abraham) and mothered by Sarah ( our mother- the new Jerusalem from above who is free) but they are babes, so they are no different than slaves, they are "kept under tutors" until they grow in grace and begin to see the glorious freedom of the sons of God. We seek to bring people into a love relationship with Jesus that produces life. "Legalism" keeps the redeemed in slavery to man-made traditions based in wrong interpretations of the law of God and the unrighteous stewardships of men rather than the freedom that is ours in Christ.
Thank you eaglesway for your answer! I have been pondering it for a while now, but have not had much time for communication. Your definition of legalism is:
Quote"legalism" which is approaching the new covenant from the letter, from the commandments, from the mind-first soul.
I'm not sure what the mind-first soul is. I have been led to understand that the mind is within the soul. Certainly, we are instructed to be led by the Spirit. This may happen as we are transformed, by the renewing of our minds, by the washing of the water of the Word...then we may be able to know and approve of God's will for us which is revealed through his Word...isn't it? (I'm not sure of the distinction here) Are you saying that we should not read the letters of the Word from God? Presumably you are not saying that.
You wrote:
QuoteThose who are still in the letter have a veil over their faces. When they read the word they only see the letter. They cannot receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God, ...
I have formerly understood that those with a veil still over their faces, are those who have not yet come to Christ.
QuoteRom 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Misplaced zeal is often at the heart of "legalism" which is approaching the new covenant from the letter, from the commandments, from the mind-first soul. It is those who are led by the Spirit who are the sons of God, they are being transformed by the renewing of their minds, serving in the newness of the Spirit, not in the fading oldness of the letter. When you have "Christ in you the hope of glory" you do not need the law, you have the divine nature, the mind of Christ, the incorruptible seed of the living word and the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.
This idea that we don't need the law...just seems so foreign to me. I know that many have put away the law...but I don't think we are instructed so to do.
I must again depart....please forgive me for not being able to finish this....
peace, dmatic
When I say mind-first soul I am speaking of head over heart; or mentality over spirituality; or tree of knowledge of good and evil over tree of life. We are to be "renewed in the spirit of our minds". The renewal is a broken and a contrite heart, the prize of the pure in spirit. As far as the law, their are two different laws being discussed- not just one. The law in tablets of stone, or written in ink is one, the law written on tablets of human hearts by the Spirit is the other. If you read 2 Corinthians 3:15-18 you can see both. One is a law of the letter, the other is a law of transforming fellowship with Christ. It is a law of agape- "unconditional love" and a law of koinonea- "fellowship".
In this intimate pursuit of God, the desire to be in union with the Spirit drives our righteousness. We have died to the old law, crucified with Christ. We are made alive in the new law, the inner man being empowered by the Spirit to reckon as dead the old man, and mortify the deeds of the flesh. We press into the new man by grace through faith.
The veiled are all who cannot see the revelation of "Christ in you the hope of glory". Many who have "come to Christ" are veiled to much of the grace of God because "the traditions of men make the word of no effect". They are essentially like Ismael, who had a father of spirit(Abraham) and a mother of slavery(Hagar) (see Galatians ch.3&4). The son of the bondwoman cannot receive an inheritance with the son of the slave woman. Those who see "the glorious liberty of the sons of God", which is "the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus", are like Israel, who had a Sarah for his mother. She corresponds to the heavenly Jerusalem who is our mother and is free. We must not use our freedom for the flesh, or to serve ourselves, or it will become another kind of bondage....but we do not go back under the law if we have been set free through the revelation of Jesus Christ. "For freedom Christ has set you free, why submit again to a yoke of bondage". "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free".
I am also pressed for time, so I have not placed all the scriptural references in this as I usually do, and some of it will be hard to understand for you at this point, but you need to go into the Word and seek. The secrets of the universe cannot be unveiled in 15 minute exchanges :wink1:. The letters to the Romans and the Galatians are particularly needful in understanding these distinctions. I am also glad to continue exchanging with you as I can.... Peace, John
Do we receive the Spirit by the works of the law (the letter) or by its intended purpose, the reason for which something exists?
When you obey the letter of the law, not the Spirit, you are following the literal interpretation of words; not the intent of the ONE who wrote the law. However, when you follow the SPIRIT of that law (not the strict interpretation), you are obeying the Authors intended purpose.
In other words, 65 m.p.h. may be the legal speed limit, but driving safely under certain condition might be better if you slowed-down. Thus, the spirit of the law should prevail; drive safely.
In the same vein of preserving life (the Spirit of the law), you might need to drive a bit faster to the hospital?
peacemaker
In the early chapters of the book of Genesis we read that Abel went out and took of the firstling of his flock to offer in sacrifice to God. "Thefirst of his flock" indicates not merely the firstborn, but the very best, a lamb without spot or blemish. But Cain, his brother, took of the fruit of the ground for his offering. In Abel's sacrifice we find a beautiful picture of our Lord Jesus Christ, for Christ was the firstling of the flock, the firstborn of many brethren, the beginning of the creation of God, and out of the whole family of mankind He was the most excellent specimen, unsurpassed in purity of character, excellence of mind and body, and all attributes of divine nature. But then again we still have the same scenario of Cain, people are still offering to God out of the fruit of their human efforts, the best the flesh can produce. It is a great fact, however, that the best we can produce of ourselves is Adam, and old Adam is not good enough, he's not acceptable. In the living out of the life of sonship, which is the life of Christ, we are not talking about modifying the carnal mind, we're not talking about overhauling Adam. The carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be! You can make Adam memorize as much scripture as you can, go to church every Sunday, sing in the choir, learn all the doctrines, do every kind of good work, lay the law on him and force him to act like a saint, but he's still not acceptable in the sight of God. Just as the dog returns to his vomit, and the hog to his wallowing, so the corruption of the Adam man will eventually break out, revealing him to be exactly who he really is. Sonship is not about modifying the behavior of the old man, the man of earth. It's about putting on the life of Christ, the firstling of the flock, a new creation in the image and likeness of God! Don't struggle, dear one, with old Adam with his weaknesses, failures, limitations and corruption. Give yourself to the putting on of Christ and themore you put Him on the more the Adamic nature will disappear as the snow before the noonday sun.
From an article by J. Preston Eby
Quote from: eaglesway on March 03, 2010, 07:37:42 AM
In this intimate pursuit of God, the desire to be in union with the Spirit drives our righteousness. We have died to the old law, crucified with Christ. We are made alive in the new law, the inner man being empowered by the Spirit to reckon as dead the old man, and mortify the deeds of the flesh. We press into the new man by grace through faith.
Eaglesway, you stated somewhere that the old law is the one on tablets of stone, whereas the "new law" is presumably written on the hearts, within the covenanters.
I believe that the law is the same. It is simply the location that has changed. You say we have died to the old law...but I think this is the old man. There is nothing wrong with the letters or words or spirit of the Law of God.
Admittedly, the writings of Paul can be hard to understand. Many use these translations of Paul to try to support thier lawlessnewss or thier belief that the law of God has been put to death or somthing like that. Well, I'm going to have to try to continue on another computer because the lines keep jumping around here...
Sorry. First, we know, according to Jesus' plain words that the law will not pass away until heaven and earth pass away and all are fulfilling it. Matt 5:18. Further, we know that those who break even the least of those commandments, or disregard them, and teach others to disregard them will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. v. 19.
So, what to do with Rom 10:4 which you quoted..."For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." This does not mean that the law ends. It means that the law's goal is the anointing of righteousness of Christ for the believer.
What of Romans 7? What, or who dies? Does the law die? No. The husband of the wife dies. This husband...is our old man. (Our soul previously was married to the flesh of our old Adam) When our old man dies, we are set free BY THE LAW to marry another. The Law sets us free, as it does also the woman whose husband died. The Law set her free to remarry. She is no longer bound to him. As we are no longer bound to our old man! We are free to remarry the New Man...the second Adam! But, this does not most certainly mean that we are not to adhere to the Law any longer does it? Of course not. In fact, we should be preparing ourselves for the marriage.
You wrote:
QuoteTheir are many Christians who are like Ismael, fathered by the spirit (Abraham) but mothered by the law (Hagar) and acting like Ishmael- they have a blessing and are a great nation but "their hands is against every man"(divisive, not united, no peace). Their are also Christians who are fathered by the spirit (Abraham) and mothered by Sarah ( our mother- the new Jerusalem from above who is free) but they are babes, so they are no different than slaves, they are "kept under tutors" until they grow in grace and begin to see the glorious freedom of the sons of God. We seek to bring people into a love relationship with Jesus that produces life. "Legalism" keeps the redeemed in slavery to man-made traditions based in wrong interpretations of the law of God and the unrighteous stewardships of men rather than the freedom that is ours in Christ.
I agree with a lot of this, but there goes the box, after filling up it keeps jumping and I can't see what I'm typing!
Ishmael was a product of Abram and Hagar. This represents the old covenant, where the obedience of man was supposed to produce the fruit of the Spirit....but, obviously, we couldn't do it...despite our best efforts!
The New Covenant is based on God working His plan within us. This fruit produced of the promise was of Abraham and Sarah. Both of the parents had the Spirit of God Added to them, as signified by the additions to both of their names...their inward nautres were changed by God. Thus the child of the promise was born...miraculously! Isaac.
You are right about many having the nature of Ishmael....still...but God is able to change it! Christ in us the hope of glory! Indeed! But this does not mean that we don't need the Law anymore. Those who think that may end up like Solomon, who thought he knew the spirit of the law so he didn't need to keep the letter....and it cost him! Well, it actually also cost his son....when the kingdom was divided from him!
Peace, dmatic
Of course I agree with you and Jesus about the traditions of men... while making the commandments of God of none effect! Hopefully, you are not doing that by suggesting that we don't need the law anymore.
Peace, dmatic
Comparing the old and new covenant, by Gary Amirault;
http://www.tentmaker.org/oldandnew.htm
Thank you for the reference jabcat. I printed the whole thing and started to read it at home, but was a bit dismayed when I came acroos some of the author's thoughts. As:
QuoteIt is often taught in seminary, church and Sunday school that the only difference between the Old Covenant and the New is that the Old Testament was written in stone while under the New Testament the very same law was written upon our hearts. This is simply false. The writer of Hebrews makes it quite clear that the New Covenant required a brand new law. Jesus makes all things new, including the law of the covenant.
It makes one wonder where the author gets this idea. Actually, most of "Christianity" teaches what the author does regarding the Law of God. Most, having become law-less, teach that the "Old Law" has been done away with and a "New Law" has replaced it! This teaching is not what the writers of the Scriptures had in mind when speaking of the righteous Law of God as given through Moses and the Prophets! It is a twisting to be sure.
Anyway...if you would like to discuss this, or the author's perspectives, I would be happy to do so. I'll leave you with Jesus' opwn words regarding His Father's righteous Law... Whosoever, therefore, breaks even the very least of those commands, and teaches others to do so, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven...
Peace, dmatic
Koinonia is the anglicisation of a Greek word (κοινωνία) that means communion by intimate participation.
The word is used frequently in the New Testament of the Bible to describe the relationship within the early Christian church as well as the act of breaking bread in the manner which Christ prescribed during the Passover meal [John 6:48-69, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:24].
As a result the word is used within the Christian Church to participate, as Paul says, in the Communion of - in this manner it identifies the idealised state of fellowship and community that should exist - Communion.
:cloud9:
Indeed, rosered! Thank you. True communion is the goal.
Back to the article by Gary Amirault, jabcat, if I may...It appears that the author may not understand Paul's usage of the term "works of the law", in his last message concerning perfection. At any rate, in his writing on the differences between the Old and New Covenants, he presumes to be "under the New Covenant" and has access to the New City, the New Jerusalem. Revelation 22:14 states the qualifications for those having right to enter through the gates into the city and to partake of the tree of life...Those who keep His commandments.
Hopefully, jabcat, you can see the errors contained within the article you quoted.
Peace, dmatic
Rom 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
When Jesus died on the cross, He fulfilled the law-"No greater law has anyone than this- to lay down His life for a friend".
Those of us who have been crucified with Christ have died to the law contained in ordinances, and made alive in the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. This is the new commandment of our Lord- a life of sacrifice, yielding our bodies as living sacrifices, acceptable sacrifices because we have died, "Yielding all"- no longer living for ourselves but for Christ.
" I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me, and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God."
This incorruptible seed grows up in the nature of the One who is that seed- Christ, the new nature. The new man being created in the image of Christ. The reason not one jot or tittle of the law is lost is because it is fulfilled in Christ, for all those who have died to this world and taken on the new nature in the Spirit. These are the "plantings of the Lord, the oaks of righteousness and they are bearing the fruit of the Spirit-against which there is no law.
Hi dmatic. If the scripture actually said that, then my question would be, so do you believe our salvation and entrance into the city is based on works? Or grace, as the scriptures teach? And if somehow by works, or even if works are involved, then whose works? Our own, or His through us - through His blood cleansing and redeeming us, and His Spirit and grace keeping us? Because I believe any law we may keep is because it's written on our heart through the new spiritual birth - which is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, or else WE could boast. And we can't. And if any law is kept without the new spiritual birth, and His Spirit doing it through us, then it really amounts to filthy rags and fit to be burned as chaff. Because that amounts to our own righteousness, which ain't worth a hoot.
So, actually, a literal translation of that verse, Rev. 22:14 is "Happy are those who are rinsing their long robes, so that they might have a right to the Log of Life [formerly the Tree of Life (Gen. 2:9, 3:22)]". So still by His blood, grace, and mercy.
That's how I understand it in a nutshell. Jesus fulfilled the Law, the requirements of the Law, and His Spirit works the necessary works of righteousness through a saved, born again, Spirit-filled believer. I'm not a big debater, that's how I see it, and we will see it however we do until God shows us something different...Thanks, James.
Amen eaglesway...was posting as you did.
I do beleive you 'nailed' it to the cross with that last post
EAGLESWAY......yeilding all....Annanais and Sapphira didn't
and that was a sin against the Holy spirit.
righteousness by works of law...is a trying to prove ourselves
righteous in ourselves[which is impossible] but righteousness
through GRACE and the free gift further exalts 'the
righteousness of God'.
Pharisees and sadducees..when they did righteous
works..blew a trumpet to call attention to it, same with prayers
trying to convince others or prove themselves.
Righteousness of Christ through grace leaves off proving our
own righteousness[we can say, I am a sinner saved by grace]
and give HIM the Glory[do your giving in secret and the Father
who see's will reward you openly]
I think the 'babylon' principle may just be tied up in this very
thing! :mshock:
Thanks James. I'm not much of a debater either... but I think these things important. If I am wrong, I do want someone to tell me. The KJV of Rev. 22:14 says: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city..."
You differ as to the original and say that it says something different?
This translation stuff is important but also can be confusing. I guess you'll believe whatever you want to believe...as I too. So, why allow ourselves to be challenged at all? Could it be that we want to know the Truth? Many think they already know it of course....so let's just live and let live right? We shouldn't argue you know. Jesus wasn't really arguing with the scribes and Pharisees...and the church of His day...or was He?
I have not said that I disagree with following the Spirit...and having His Law written within our hearts....for until that happens, we may not be able to keep His commandments, because internally, we may be disagreeing with them. The commandments are what they are....True and righteous altogether! It just seems that you guys are suggesting that we shouldn't teach them! The article you quoted implied as much. I think that is wrong. I think we should teach them.
Sheila wrote:
Quoterighteousness by works of law...is a trying to prove ourselves
righteous in ourselves[which is impossible] but righteousness
through GRACE and the free gift further exalts 'the
righteousness of God'.
I don't think I'm trying to "prove my own righteousness". If so, I apologize. I thought I was trying to "Prove" the righteousness of God and His Law!
The fact remains. Jesus said that whosoever breaks even the least command from the Law and Prophets, and teaches others so, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whosoever keeps and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Hopefully, you guys want to esteem what God esteems.
Peace, dmatic
Hi dmatic
Are you speaking about feasts and sabbaths and dietary restriction? Are you talking cities of refuge for accidental murders? Is one day more important than another or are all days the same? Or may each one walk according to his or her conscience before the Lord, as Paul explained? These are the questions that come to my mind when discussing the jots and tittles.
I am honestly not sure where you are coming from- so these are honest questions, not insincere ones.
As I see it, anyone who has the Spirit of Christ understands that righteousness under grace exceeds the righteousness under law, for the law was a shadow, the fulness is Christ.
Tit 2:11-13 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
If anyone does not understand that, then they are entrapped again in their former lusts and have forgotten that they were given a new nature. No amount of law will help them. For all who have the Spirit of Christ, the law of God written on their hearts is superior to the law written in stone, for it is the very heart of His love.
Again, I am not sure where you are coming from because this discussion often veers off in different directions- I don't want to debate either- and I don't want to assume that I know where you are coming from- so I am deliberately keeping my discussions short. Peace, John
Thank you John. You are so very right about a conversation such as this, often veering in many directions. Your wisdom in asking the questions you did is appreciated. And, thank you also for quoting Titus 2:11-13, as it is one of my favorite passages. I think it defines what grace is. Grace...teaches us...to deny ungodliness and worldly (fleshly) lusts, and to live soberly and righteously and Godly in this present age! (Even now) The grace is revealed in YHWH's instructions to us, which are often called His Law. He teaches us what is right. When we seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness...we are seeking His definitions as to what is "right"....because every way of a man is right in his own eyes! What we need is His instruction as to what is really right.
This, obviously, includes His Word, as revealed through Moses and the Prophets and the Writings...otherwise known as the "Old Testament". So, I am of the opinion that not even the least of those commandments, or instructions, should be neglected as we seek His righteousness. Therefore, whatever is written for you is to be adhered to by you...and whatever is written to me, is to be adhered to by me, as He writes His Law insid us so that it becomes a part of our nature, as you have implied. There goes that losing of the visual after the availbale box is used up...I'll continue with another post...
Sorry about that, but I can't even see what I type after it disappears...
You wrote:
QuoteFor all who have the Spirit of Christ, the law of God written on their hearts is superior to the law written in stone, for it is the very heart of His love.
The Law and instructions of God are what they are...Certainly it is superior to have them written within us, in our minds and heart...so that our adherence to them is part of our nature....but the commandments are the same. The commandments given through Moses are all about His love too! he gave us these commandments for our good, because He loves us. This is His motivation for the grace He has revealed through Moses and the Prophets. His Love. The epitome of grace is revealed within His Law to Moses too. The Jubilee! The goal of the commandments is love from a pure heart! We cannot say that we love God if we are not keeping His commandments....because at the very place where we fail, or transgress, we are not loving Him there. The Law indeed, shows us our sin..which is a good thing, for those of us who desire to love Him with our whole heart. Many are deceived. They say they love God but do not the things He commands. Today, as scripture has prophesied, many cannot endure sound doctrine, but they desire to feel good, etc. and gather around teachers that tell them what they "want" to hear. Thus, many think they are walking according to the Spirit even though they walk in thier iniquity...and in law-less-ness.
You asked:
QuoteAre you speaking about feasts and sabbaths and dietary restriction? Are you talking cities of refuge for accidental murders? Is one day more important than another or are all days the same?
Yes, I am speaking about the whole counsel of YHWH. Are there any specific commandments that He has revealed that you disagree with? If so, we could talk specifically about it, or them. Yes, I believe the Sabbath Day command is to be remembered by His people. I think we should keep the Feasts of YHWH, instead of the many man-made traditions that have been sold to many unsuspecting seekers...Not keeping them has led to much misunderstanding by many, of all sorts of things. I believe that Paul was speaking about birthdays, for example...some honor theirs, and others treat all days the same. I don't think there is a command either way..to honor it or not to. But, he is not speaking of the Sabbath day in Romans 14.
This morning, I was reading Hosea 4 through chapter nine. At verse 6 of chap. 4, one of the reasons stated for lack of knowledge is because the people had forgotten the law of God. 9:7 was also noteworthy...but I need to depart now. Hopefully this gives you a better idea as to from where I come.
Peace, doug
Yep, I see where you are coming from now, peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on March 19, 2010, 06:21:05 AM
Yep, I see where you are coming from now, peace, John
Good one. I fell for your trap? I thought you were sincere. My bad.
peace to you too.....dmatic
Not sure what you mean about a trap dmatic.... I appreciate your honesty and now I believe I understand your perspective. Grace and peace to you in the name of God our Father and the Lord Jesus, John
Quote from: dmatic on March 19, 2010, 10:02:31 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on March 19, 2010, 06:21:05 AM
Yep, I see where you are coming from now, peace, John
Good one. I fell for your trap? I thought you were sincere. My bad.
peace to you too.....dmatic
"Giving and receiving; both require open hands."
peacemaker
Quote from: peacemaker on March 20, 2010, 08:02:46 AM
"Giving and receiving; both require open hands."
peacemaker
I like that. Thank you. My response may have come from a misunderstanding. If so, please forgive me. I, earlier, had written:
QuoteIf I am wrong, I do want someone to tell me.
It seemed to me that I was being given the brush-off. After investing some time composing an answer to eaglesway's question, i thought it, frankly, rude, to answer so succinctly, without follow-up. Maybe you had nothing more to say. But, no explanation was given....kindof like...OK...see you later...
May I conclude, then, from your silence, that you agree with my perspective? Or, shall I await a challenge to it?
Thank you. I sincerely do want to know if I am wrong.
Peace, dmatic
Hi dmatic,
I was not purposely giving you the brush off. I was under the impression our exchanges began with you asking me to clarify some statements I had made, which I thought I had done. When I was reading your responses, I was beginning to feel like I did not know for sure where you were coming from, so I asked for some details. After your last response I felt clear on the matter, and I figured you understood where I was coming from also (since I wrote several pretty comprehensive posts explaining myself)- whether you agreed with me or not.
I am not interested in pursuing discussions about the difference in our perspectives concerning the law of God that would go much beyond what we have shared because I have said mostly all I have to say on that previously in this thread. I genuinely do, however, hope we have fellowship and discussion in the future -and I do understand why you thought I was giving you the brush off after re-reading my post. Really after examining it I think maybe I was brushing off the subject matter a bit, but no offence was intended by me towards you and I was in no way offended by you. Peace, John
thank you John....May God bless you.
Peace, dmatic
Quote from: rosered on February 02, 2010, 08:53:46 PM
Indeed the Spirit is willing but
the flesh is weak .. there is your paradox :winkgrin:
did we not see here in Matt 26 :41 just how Jesus explained to Peter
not to sleep in sorrow his flesh being tempted ? and the key was to watch and pray in the Spirit to the Father because the flesh is weakkkkkkk!!
and Jesus Himself shows us the weakness of his own flesh to let the cup of suffering pass , yet His desire in the Spirit was as the Father chose His course in obedience ....
39 He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."
40 Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, "Couldn't you watch with me even one hour? 41 Keep watch and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation. For the spirit is willing, but the body is weak!"
42 Then Jesus left them a second time and prayed, "My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away[g] unless I drink it, your will be done." 43 When he returned to them again, he found them sleeping, for they couldn't keep their eyes open.
44 So he went to pray a third time, saying the same things again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said, "Go ahead and sleep. Have your rest. But look—the time has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Up, let's be going. Look, my betrayer is here!"
I am starting to get this with the NLT , just went out and bought a hard copy at Wally world today ... hee hee , very helpful .
you know i do love the KJV and keep it to look up all the strongs and greek Hebrew stuff , but this " new tongue / language " New Living Translation is much easier to grasp ,
Thanks all and you dmatic , for keeping this thread going :icon_flower:
NLT is just plain fun to read.
Quote from: Yab Yum on March 23, 2010, 11:08:46 PM
NLT is just plain fun to read.
Hi YY,
It is ! Reminds me of conversations on the forum , just plain speak !
:icon_flower:
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-Living-Translation-NLT-Bible/ (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-Living-Translation-NLT-Bible/)
they have many different ones / translations to look into on Gateway .. gospelcom
good stuff , been using for years this on line site :)
Good works are a fruit of salvation- not salvation in and of itself. Works of the law are a result of fear of death/destruction (those who have no faith).
I think that view is consistent with how many believers in universal salvation, having rightly ditched the concept of hell from their thinking, interpret "salvation" as being forgiveness of sin. In my studies on the Biblical teaching of salvation, I have come to believe instead that while God's forgiveness is inherent in his plan of salvation, that salvation itself is not just the forgiveness of sin, but the HEALING of sin. In fact, the Greek word for salvation can be traced back to the concept of healing. And through His Angel to Joseph, God said that Jesus would not only forgive, but actually SAVE his people "FROM their sin."
So, James actually literally says that when faith results in good works, THEN salvation is realized, not salvation first, then good works. His statements have caused much theological debate and theories. However, if we look at it practically, what I have said, not only harmonizes James' literal words and phrasing, but makes common sense.
Take alcoholism as an example and filter it through James' words that we are not saved by faith alone.
If someone is an alcoholic, will faith alone save him from alcoholism? Of course not! An alcoholic, to be saved from alcoholism must also STOP drinking. That's the good work that stems from faith that saves him from his sin. He is not saved from alcoholism BEFORE that good work, but after.
And the Bible says that our healing is not of ourselves, but is by Grace. It is God that causes this to happen, as faith comes, and grace works within to cause the good work, altogether resulting in the salvation/healing.
Additionally, it is very important to note why James mentions Rahab when he makes his statement about good works and salvation. She was cooperating with the Israelites to overthrow the city. She was not saved, therefore, by following the Law, and therefore her works were not "works of the Law." She was saved by trusting God and following through with her promise to do what He wanted. THAT is the difference between works of the Law and Good Works. Good works are built on trusting God by faith, and works of the Law are built on self-determination and having one's "own righteousness" which is as dirty rags.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on September 13, 2009, 11:46:47 PM
Man, the first creation, is capable of incredibly good works and horrendous evil works; the fruits of the tree they ate from.
Not! to be confused, though, with the works of Satan; those works of Satan are completely different.
He stands as the accuser of man to God.
Well gee thanks.... this post could not have come at a better time for me.
I was confusing the tree of knowledge of good and evil with works of Satan. :cloud9:
Seth, I agree with much of what you have to say here. I'd guess your example would apply to any of our sins, i.e., lying, stealing, judging, pridefulness, etc....many become drunk who aren't necessarily alcoholics, but we all (including me) have our own sin(s) with which to struggle (overcome by His grace, mercy, and power)...
and I agree, forgiveness is a huge part of that, healing comes with it...
Yeah, that is why salvation from sin (in total) is a life-long journey. :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Healing literally means, to make whole. So making the parts whole, is healing. The spiritual has to be dealt with before the natural is manifested.
It's the "reverse" of them taking the thought from the serpent (spiritual), and the result was physical or natural. Not a coincidence the first article of armor is the helmet (thoughts must be under covering) of salvation. Blessings...
Quote from: Seth on July 08, 2010, 01:35:08 AM
Yeah, that is why salvation from sin (in total) is a life-long journey. :thumbsup:
Yep it is.
"Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works" walks hand in hand with Jesus saying, "I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was naked and you clothed me, enter into the joy of your Lord".
This is in accordance with the "new commandment" He gave- that we love one another.
Love is not perfected in keeping laws- but all the law is fulfilled in love, "no greater love has a man than to lay down his life for a friend".
In this renewed covenant in Christ, love is the horse and the commandments are the cart.
Even under the old covenant it was so- read Isaiah 58 again, or Psalm 51.
Love fulfills the law. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law for all of us through "perfect love"-laying down His life for His friends. The requirements of the law are fulfilled in us as soon as we enter the covenant of His love.
"....against such, their is no law".
What did the deeds of the good Samaritan have to do with law? He did not know the law. Yet the Pharisee and the Levite, who knew, did not fulfill the law because they did not walk in love. The parable was told to explain to seekers how God judges and discerns the heart. As in Romans 1 & 2 where Paul explans that it is the doers of the law(the universal law of love) who are justified, not the hearers- so that those who did not "know" the law, but fulfilled it because the love of God was working in them as righteousness apart from written laws, written on their hearts will be justified in their own conscience before God on the Day. Peace, John
Quote from: eaglesway on July 08, 2010, 03:43:16 AM
"Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works" walks hand in hand with Jesus saying, "I was thirsty and you gave me a drink, I was naked and you clothed me, enter into the joy of your Lord".
This is in accordance with the "new commandment" He gave- that we love one another.
Love is not perfected in keeping laws- but all the law is fulfilled in love, "no greater love has a man than to lay down his life for a friend".
In this renewed covenant in Christ, love is the horse and the commandments are the cart.
Even under the old covenant it was so- read Isaiah 58 again, or Psalm 51.
Love fulfills the law. Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law for all of us through "perfect love"-laying down His life for His friends. The requirements of the law are fulfilled in us as soon as we enter the covenant of His love.
"....against such, their is no law".
What did the deeds of the good Samaritan have to do with law? He did not know the law. Yet the Pharisee and the Levite, who knew, did not fulfill the law because they did not walk in love. The parable was told to explain to seekers how God judges and discerns the heart. As in Romans 1 & 2 where Paul explans that it is the doers of the law(the universal law of love) who are justified, not the hearers- so that those who did not "know" the law, but fulfilled it because the love of God was working in them as righteousness apart from written laws, written on their hearts will be justified in their own conscience before God on the Day. Peace, John
Great post :thumbsup:
"In this renewed covenant in Christ, love is the horse and the commandments are the cart."
Genius!
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Just wondering though....how come God brought the cart before the horse? :winkgrin: :laughing7:
Quote from: Cardinal on July 08, 2010, 05:08:24 AM
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Just wondering though....how come God brought the cart before the horse? :winkgrin: :laughing7:
lol I was a bit slow getting that. But here's a thought.
The cart was first because men tried to pull the commandments by their own strength, but then came the horse (love, Jesus) to pull the cart that men could not do by themselves.
The prophets kept pointing at the horse but the leaders and the people preferred the cart- immobile, under control and full of stuff that they loved, rather than full of the testimony of the "I AM". Sorta like breaking the wings of the cherubim off of the ark of the covenant and cutting the "bud" off of Aarons rod. Sometimes I wonder if God didn t gather the sons of God together and Satan with them saying, "Look at my servant Israel- I gave him a horse drawn cart- see if you can talk him into killing the horse".
Just kidding of course, but this is a matter that you'll endorse, He's always on a steady course.
you're dating yourself eaglesway!
:clock:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU
THANKS BELOVED SERVANT! :o)
lol, my pleasure!
IMO, its all about motive. Lawful works in my mind is works that come from the flesh. Meaning we are completing good works so that God owes us one, or to earn Gods favor, or even out of fear of hell. We are basically trying to earn our salvation through works.
I believe good works are works that come from a a natural out flowing of love and relationship with our Savior. Christ fills us, and we can't help but to fill others. True relationship changes the heart. And from this state you can't but help to give, love, and serve. It's as natural as the law of gravity. You drop a rock and it falls. Christ works on your heart and you serve others through good works.
Quote from: shawn on July 02, 2012, 06:27:30 AM
IMO, its all about motive. Lawful works in my mind is works that come from the flesh. Meaning we are completing good works so that God owes us one, or to earn Gods favor, or even out of fear of hell. We are basically trying to earn our salvation through works.
I believe good works are works that come from a a natural out flowing of love and relationship with our Savior. Christ fills us, and we can't help but to fill others. True relationship changes the heart. And from this state you can't but help to give, love, and serve. It's as natural as the law of gravity. You drop a rock and it falls. Christ works on your heart and you serve others through good works.
I agree, if works are not done out of love or compassion for another then they are of the flesh. I also think that if we do works to even bring ourselves joy, we are doing them for profit. Good works are those that bring joy to another first, not us. We do them because we love them or have compassion for them (of which there is a fine line between compassion and feeling sorry for another).
I myself, when good works are done for another by me, it is not me who does the good work, it is God doing the good work through me, my body is just the vessel He is working through, thereby He gets all the credit for them - HE GETS THE GLORY ..... not me .... and they may not know it, but when they are thanking me, they are thanking God who is in me.
Quote from: jugghead on July 02, 2012, 02:34:03 PM
Quote from: shawn on July 02, 2012, 06:27:30 AM
IMO, its all about motive. Lawful works in my mind is works that come from the flesh. Meaning we are completing good works so that God owes us one, or to earn Gods favor, or even out of fear of hell. We are basically trying to earn our salvation through works.
I believe good works are works that come from a a natural out flowing of love and relationship with our Savior. Christ fills us, and we can't help but to fill others. True relationship changes the heart. And from this state you can't but help to give, love, and serve. It's as natural as the law of gravity. You drop a rock and it falls. Christ works on your heart and you serve others through good works.
I agree, if works are not done out of love or compassion for another then they are of the flesh. I also think that if we do works to even bring ourselves joy, we are doing them for profit. Good works are those that bring joy to another first, not us. We do them because we love them or have compassion for them (of which there is a fine line between compassion and feeling sorry for another).
I myself, when good works are done for another by me, it is not me who does the good work, it is God doing the good work through me, my body is just the vessel He is working through, thereby He gets all the credit for them - HE GETS THE GLORY ..... not me .... and they may not know it, but when they are thanking me, they are thanking God who is in me.
I can say an amen to that! He is the One who has put His love in me. All love is from Him and when I truly love another I KNOW it's from Him. When He puts His love in you... you KNOW. And it's amazing! And I am so thankful for being able to be a vessel for His love!
You're absolutely right! Besides, if we believe in the "Sola Fide" principle, we also believe that "Faith without works is dead" (James II.26), so good works are necessary because we have to have a strong faith!
Living faith produces living works as a seed planted and watered in the good earth under the sun will produce fruit....(altho some ground is harder than some other ground ;o)
I myself, when good works are done for another by me, it is not me who does the good work, it is God doing the good work through me, my body is just the vessel He is working through, thereby He gets all the credit for them - HE GETS THE GLORY ..... not me .... and they may not know it, but when they are thanking me, they are thanking God who is in me.
[/quote]
I can say an amen to that! He is the One who has put His love in me. All love is from Him and when I truly love another I KNOW it's from Him. When He puts His love in you... you KNOW. And it's amazing! And I am so thankful for being able to be a vessel for His love!
[/quote]
Both pertinent points. Christ's works, not ours.
Jesus has the COPYRIGHT on all Good works. If you do something Good then it is Christ through you that did the good work. To Him goes the Glory.
Salvation is Christ putting down sins in our own flesh. In other words through Faith we receive the Spirit of God our Father in Heaven which is the same Spirit our Lord Jesus Christ has so this Spirit which is the Spirit by which we are adopted into the likeness of our Father is the very BEING that puts down the lusts of our flesh within us. So if we give-in to our lusts then the Lord is present. But when the lusts are put down then the Lord is.
Do you ever think about how Jesus told His Disciples to watch, yet they kept falling asleep when Judas came with the guards to take Him. There is a lesson there about keep the guard to defend against that which would remove the Son from your midst.
I believe the critical difference between "good works" and "works of the law".....Is Rest.
First we have to have a "knowing that the Good Works were finished before the foundation of the world" by God, and then comes "Resting in that Knowing".
Rest is very important. It relates to trust and mercy and love. Works that spring from the Spirit, as tretep was saying, "Christ in you, the hope of glory".
True kindness doesnt look for credit. Doesnt fret, "was that me or Christ in me". Doesnt keep a record of how many "good works" it has done. Doesnt let its right hand know what its left hand is doing.
As we grow in Christ and are formed into His image from within, the spontaneity of love becomes, more and more, the source of our thoughts and deeds.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2016, 02:47:45 AM
Rest is very important. It relates to trust and mercy and love. Works that spring from the Spirit, as tretep was saying, "Christ in you, the hope of glory".
True kindness doesnt look for credit. Doesnt fret, "was that me or Christ in me". Doesnt keep a record of how many "good works" it has done. Doesnt let its right hand know what its left hand is doing.
As we grow in Christ and are formed into His image from within, the spontaneity of love becomes, more and more, the source of our thoughts and deeds.
:thumbsup:
What is good works?
Quote from: chester-blowfold on May 01, 2017, 02:38:18 AM
What is good works?
That which is done out of love with no regard of profit to self ..... what I believe to be the greatest good works is "the forgiveness of sins" for it is PROOF that you love someone
Quote from: jugghead on May 01, 2017, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on May 01, 2017, 02:38:18 AM
What is good works?
That which is done out of love with no regard of profit to self ..... what I believe to be the greatest good works is "the forgiveness of sins" for it is PROOF that you love someone
Well said jugghead.
Quote from: jugghead on May 01, 2017, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on May 01, 2017, 02:38:18 AM
What is good works?
That which is done out of love with no regard of profit to self ..... what I believe to be the greatest good works is "the forgiveness of sins" for it is PROOF that you love someone
Beautiful but should works not also mean physically helping others be it through charity or actually lifting that box?
:cloud9: It's a little long, but I recently ran across this article about the phrase "works of the law"....
THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS AND THE "Works of the Law"
http://www.triumphpro.com/dead_sea_scrolls___works_of_the_law.htm
Millions of people have wondered what the expression, "works of the law" means as used by the apostle Paul. What are they?
Are "works of law" the Ten Commandments? Are they the "Law of Moses"? Or something else? Paul said "a man is not justified by the works of the law," and that "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal.2:16). What did he mean? What is the Christian's relationship to "works of the law"?
William F Dankenbring
In the book of Galatians, the apostle Paul makes it plain that a true Christian is not "justified" by "works of the law," or made righteous in God's sight by them. Paul declared, "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the WORKS OF THE LAW, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:5).
Paul went on, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the CURSE: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them" (Gal.3:10). What are these "works of the law"?
In his translation, Ferrar Fenton refers to them as "rituals of the law." Most Christians, Protestants and others, think they refer to the "deeds" of the law of Moses -- the entire Law of God given to Israel at Mount Sinai -- including the Ten Commandments, statutes, judgments, and Temple rituals and ceremonies of the Law.
But is this assumption true?
The title of an obscure Dead Sea Scroll is MMT, which stands for Miqsat Ma'ase Ha-Torah. This phrase was originally translated "Some of the Precepts of the Torah," by Dead Sea Scholars Strugnell and Qimron. However, the word miqsat does not just mean "some." The same word is used in Genesis 47:2 where Joseph presents five of his brothers before Pharaoh -- where the word could be translated as most important, select, or choice brothers.
More importantly, however, is the rest of the phrase -- ma-ase ha-Torah. Strugnell and Qimron translated this as "precepts of Torah." However, the most common GREEK word for ma-ase is ergon -- which in the New Testament is usually translated "works." The Hebrew word Torah is usually translated as nomos, which in the New Testament is generally translated "law." Thus the expression ma-ase ha-Torah then simply means "works of the law." This would be a very excellent translation. The Septuagint version of the Old Testament leaves no doubt -- it translated the Hebrew expression ma-ase ha-Torah by the Greek ergon nomou. This Greek expression is commonly translated in the New Testament as "works of the law." This expression is found in Romans 3:20,28, and Galatians 2:16, and 3:2,5, and 10.
Interestingly, when the British Bible Society translated the New Testament into modern Hebrew in 1976, when the text of the MMT Dead Sea Scroll was known only to a few scholars, they translated the Greek ergon nomou (works of the law) as ma-ase ha-Torah.
Says Martin Abegg, author of an article entitled "Paul, 'Works of the Law' and MMT," in the November-December 1994 Biblical Archaeological Review,
"In short, ma-ase ha-torah is equivalent to what we know in English from Paul's letters as 'works of the law.' This Dead Sea scroll and Paul use the very same phrase. The connection is emphasized by the fact that this phrase appears nowhere in rabbinic literature of the first and second centuries A.D. -- only in Paul and in MMT.
"The works of the law that the Qumran text refers to are obviously typified by the 20 or so religious precepts (halakkah) detailed in the body of the text. For the first time we can really understand what Paul is writing about. Here is a document detailing works of the law" (p.53, BAR, 11-12/94 issue).
Finally, then we can put to rest the question, just what are the "works of the law" that Paul wrote about! Finally, an argument which has raged for centuries, and still rages today, can be settled by clear evidence from the first century!
Let's take a look at this mysterious document MMT, and
see what it is all about.
THE DEAD SEA SCROLL MMT
The MMT scroll records the remains of nearly two dozen legal issues. Perhaps another dozen issues perished. The scroll calls attention to the subject of boundaries between what was to be considered pure and impure. The phrase rohorat haquodesh, "purity of the holy," sums up the contents of the scroll and its purpose. Says Abegg, this means, "Do not allow the holy to be profaned by what is impure." The issues discussed, says Abegg, were:
"The issues include bringing Gentile corn into the Temple, the presentation of Gentile offerings, and the cooking of sacrificial meat in unfit (impure) vessels. Other rulings concern cleansing of lepers, admitting the blind and the deaf into the Temple; and permitting intermarriage with Ammonite and Moabite converts, long forbidden to enter the congregation of Israel (Deuteronomy 23:3).
Other issues involve the transmission of impurity by a flow of water (musaq), the intermixture of wool and linen (sha-atnez) and perhaps the climax of the discussion: the intermarriage of priests with the common people.
"Most of the rulings espoused by the author of MMT are based directly upon Biblical law (for example, the prohibition against plowing with unlike animals in Deuteronomy 22:10). A few others are interpretations or amplifications of Mosaic prescriptions (for example, bans on Gentile offerings and dogs in the Temple). The list clearly reflects a conservative reaction against a relaxation of Torah precepts" (ibid., p.53-54).
Notice! These "rulings" or "works of the law" included "INTERPRETATIONS OR AMPLIFICATIONS OF MOSAIC PRESCRIPTIONS."
The Qumran sect spurned the "rabbinic extensions called Talmud, which effectively built a fence around the Torah, successive layers of which have become codified in the rabbinic works of the Mishnah and the two Talmuds. The Qumranites were the 'Bible only' group of their day" (page 54).
Notice again! The "RABBINIC EXTENSIONS" reflected in the Talmud, that corpus of Jewish religious and rabbinic literature accumulated over the centuries, known as the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, was spurned by the writers of the MMT Dead Sea Scroll. They developed their own interpretations, expansions, and halakkah. But both came under the over-all description of "works of the law" -- and included various rabbinic interpretations, amplifications, and extensions of the Law of Moses to Jewish life during the first century.
The expression miqsat ma-ase ha-torah -- "pertinent works of the law" -- nowhere appears in rabbinic literature. However, clearly the Qumranites, like the apostle Paul, were against these rabbinic "works of the law," though from a different point of view. They were espousing their own version of the "works of the law."
Paul, very clearly, condemns in no uncertain terms these "works of the law" in both Romans and Galatians!
Writes Abegg:
"Looking at Galatians and Romans in the light of MMT, it seems clear that Paul, using the same terminology, is rebutting the theology of documents such as MMT. I do not mean to suggest that Paul knew of MMT or of the zealous members of the Qumran community, but simply that Paul was reacting to the kind of theology espoused by MMT, perhaps even by some Christian converts who were committed to the kind of thinking reflecting in MMT."
What does this all mean? Clearly, even in Paul's day, the Jewish scribes and Pharisees were building "fences" around the law of God, and making it int a burden -- a "yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1). Paul warned of "false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into BONDAGE" (Gal.2:4). He warned the Galatians that we are not justified before God by "works of law" (Gal.2:16).
Paul was upset, disturbed, about the reports he had received concerning them. He wrote, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?" (Gal.3:1). He asked them, "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3:2-3).
Paul urged the Galatians not to become entangled in the "works of the law" -- the deeds and decisions and rulings of rabbinic Judaism or its offshoots. He wrote, "Stand fast therefore in the LIBERTY wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).
Writes Martin Abegg in Biblical Archaeology Review:
"Some scholars have suggested that Paul misunderstood the Jewish teaching of his day or, at the very least, that he created a straw man to bolster his own teaching regarding faith versus law. In the past, this view was supported by the fact that the phrase 'works of the law' nowhere appears in the foundational books of rabbinic Judaism. MMT, however, provides the 'smoking gun' for which students have been searching for generations, not from the pages of rabbinic literature, but from the sectarian teachings of Qumran. MMT demonstrates that Paul was not jousting with windmills, but was indeed squared off in a dramatic duel -- not with mainstream Judaism but with a sectarian theology -- that ultimately defined Christianity. If I have understood rightly, the importance of MMT for New Testament research is nothing short of revolutionary" (ibid., p.55).
Clearly, in Romans and Galatians Paul taught against "legalism" and the teaching that one could be saved and achieve salvation through the Law of Moses -- which was the Jewish teaching of the time. Rabbinic Judaism still teaches today that obedience to the LAW is the way to salvation -- that the Torah is the key to eternal life. Yet they reject the Messiah, and the atoning work of the Messiah, as of no consequence and unnecessary for salvation.
They have seriously missed the boat. Paul makes that issue crystal clear in Romans and Galatians. Clearly, there can be no salvation, and no eternal life, apart from Jesus Christ our Lord! And in following Christ, we should not become burdened by or under the bondage of "the works of the law" of rabbinic halakkah and traditions, rulings, precepts, and extensions of the Torah, as it is in the Scriptures.
On the other hand, we also need to be careful not to come under the "bondage" to the "oral law" or "halakkah" of various Christian-professing churches, who create their own rules, regulations, prescriptions, and dogmas -- traditions of "men" which Jesus clearly rejected -- which violate the written Word and Law of God. It is interesting that those churches which seem to object the strongest against the Jewish "oral law" themselves create their own "oral law," although they do not call it that.
Historically, even the Sadducees, who rejected the "oral law" preserved by the Pharisees, found it necessary to create their own "halakkah" and "oral tradition," in order to expound the Scriptures. However, any "tradition" or "church custom" which contradicts the Word of God -- Torah, or divine Revelation of the Scriptures -- must itself be rejected and avoided.
The bottom line, therefore, is that Christ Himself has the last word -- He is the "second Moses," the Prophet like unto Moses, who had FINAL AUTHORITY to "interpret" the Mosaic Law -- and provide a new "halakkah" of true interpretation and obedience (see Matthew 5-7). He came to "fill full" the Law, and make it complete (Matt.5:17-19).
To really understand God's Law, therefore, and its application to Christians, and the New Covenant, we need to search the Scriptures, and the words of Christ. We need to avoid all the "works of the law," or man-made religious taboos and constraints, which men have added from time to time, for one reason or another, to the Scriptures, leading into a yoke of heavy-handed
authoritarian bondage and spiritual slavery.
The "works of the law" that Christ and Paul condemned were the human additions to God's Law which made it a system of bondage and misery. Neither of them were condemning the keeping of God's commandments or referring to obedience to God's Law as "works of the law" -- not at all!
Let's thank God for this precious truth and revelation -- and for the beauty of His Torah Law and Revelation!
Quote from: chester-blowfold on May 01, 2017, 02:38:18 AM
What is good works?
To me good works is anything which Jesus in us does.. All the changes the Spirit of God brings about - "He that began a good work in you is faithful to complete it." .."lest any should boast.."
For the difference between good works and the law read Galatians, then Hebrews 4.. One is of the Spirit, the other is of the flesh.
Paul wrote if the law - the first covenant - Galatians - could give righteousness, then Christ died in vain.
Does this mean adultery, robbery are all ok now? :doh: As we know, the New Testament is full of comparisons between the Old Covenant and the new.. The new is the new man.. the old, the "tutor until the new" was to separate Israel from the other nations. And the law is to show sin and all persons as guilty..
Galatians of course is quite plain.. once we read it for our self instead of what teachers say it says - "call no man teacher for you are all brethren".. And Hebrews says we are to obey the New Covenant..
Acts 15, the Jerusalem council, the question was should gentiles become Judean Old Covenant followers in order to become believers in Jesus? Were they to be circumcised and follow the Judaic laws? The apostles would not need to bother to find out from the Spirit of God if gentile believers were to follow Rabbinic and, or oral tradition and rituals.. In Galatians Paul wrote "who has bewitched you?"
Colossians said circumcision is now of the heart.. of the flesh does no good.. And in /galatians it seems Paul felt very strongly about it as he said "I wish those who wish to circumcise you would go ahead and complete the job and castrate their selves!"
Galatians 5:1 says -
"..Christ has made us free! And do not be entangled again by a yoke of servitude".
This does not of course, mean a believer and follower of Jesus is free to live a dissolute life! As Paul wrote "God forbid!" and "those things lead to death, where's the attraction?"
That's why The Way is a "narrow way"! Because there's huge ditches on either side! One is the ditch of license. And the other is the ditch of "rules". Beware the rules!
The first churches were not as we have our churches now. They were brothers and sisters (in love with God and Jesus) getting together. And following the Spirit.
The first enemies - "love your enemies" - were the 'Judaizers'. They wanted Gentiles (non-Hebrew, not under the Law of Moses) believers to become Judean. If we read the Letter to the Galatians, or any other letter actually, but especially Galatians, it's obvious this was not the plan of God. [Also Acts chapter 15, of course.]
And we can see that spirit today. It's always been very active! You must do this, you must not do that. When The Way is a relationship. And the living upon God's Word and Spirit (bread and wine of life). "If you are led of the Spirit, you will not be doing the acts of the lower carnal character." You just won't. You are following and yearning after the Spirit and drinking of the Word of Life. That is The Way of transformation and 'self improvement' - though it is NO act of self.
When we seek to follow rules.. any rules, to be 'right with God', approved of by God.. we have stepped out of His plan. We are saying or trying to believe, that God will owe us acceptance, like wages. (On the Holy Day "you will do NO work!") It is a gift. It is
His doing. It is a
recognition and
affirmation that
HE, is the
only source of good. (The only source of Life!) And this is "all given to us, freely, through Jesus".
"That the spirit in our heart cries 'abba, Father!' is the sign and seal and proof that we are His! His pledge that all that He has promised shall be given." And "He is faithful to carry out the good work which He has begun in us". ..."via the same POWER which rose Jesus from the grave."
The other - "any 'other' gospel" - has not that power. It's a dead end. It's a ditch.
It comes in many guises. The second 'enemies' of the gospel (news/good news) were the gnostics. They had a very large whole set of rules! They believed matter, the universe, was why mankind was flawed and the world was as it is. That somehow we (life) had 'fallen into matter' and this is what we needed to be saved from. The body was especially evil, and all its functions. Of course this led to other sects of the belief, which was license, for if all earthly functions were evil, like eating and drinking (and breathing? And don't forget, the bible says "honorable [is] the marriage in all, and the bed undefiled".) So if even walking was 'evil' then what the heck, why not just do anything and everything since it was the body itself that was guilty, lacked character, and hey, this must all be God's fault! And my special insight/knowledge/gnosis is what will set me free!
How crazy is that!? But it's the root and foundation of any "rules" system. And unlike the "freedom in Christ" it's a system of following humans and a human group. We get this from individuals and from organizations. It says 'believe in Jesus and.. ..and I'll tell you the special rule.. come and follow me..' And, or, be a part of my group..
I don't know why it works, but it seems to work very well. (This working in the flesh, in contradiction to every new testament letter.)
Galatians 5:1 - "..Christ has made us free! ..do not be entangled again by a yoke of bondage".
Any personal conviction I may have.. be it vegetarian - "the lion will eat straw like the ox" - or any other rule I may choose to follow, is likely a wonderful thing.. but not mine to impose or even suggest to another. Paul, led of the Spirit to write a large bulk of the New Testament, said, "know only Christ", "and Him crucified" ..."saved by grace, are you now made right through the law?" (Gal.)
Quote from: chester-blowfold on May 02, 2017, 10:27:29 AM
Quote from: jugghead on May 01, 2017, 04:29:19 PM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on May 01, 2017, 02:38:18 AM
What is good works?
That which is done out of love with no regard of profit to self ..... what I believe to be the greatest good works is "the forgiveness of sins" for it is PROOF that you love someone
Beautiful but should works not also mean physically helping others be it through charity or actually lifting that box?
Yes CB, I just said "the greatest good works" is the forgiveness of sins, anything done out of love with no regard of profit to self also includes all the kind things we do physically for others
blessings
Glenda,
I didn't want to quote your whole dissertation for this, but I do have to say: "that was a most excellent post!"
Pat
Thank you! :dsunny:
Made my day!