Something I Couldn't Figure Out When I Was An ECT Believer

[JamesH]

These verses:

Revelation 14:9-11-9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

What I couldn't figure out is in verse 10 it says those who worship the beast will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and Christ(the Lamb)if they are going to be tormented forever as verse 11 says how can they be in the presence of the angels and Christ if they are forever tormented? Then it dawned on me as a new uni that this torment is only temporary. If it's forever then the ECTer has a problem and here is the problem:

If the torment is eternal/everlasting/forever then the ECTer will have to explain why Christ and the angels are there for good watching this torment? If they believe in everlasting torment then it means that the torment is going to be observed by Christ and the angels for good.

I don't see Christ and the angels just sitting there watching these people suffer forever. Are you telling me that they have nothing better to do than to watch people suffer for all eternity/time and nothing else? I can just hear the convo between the angels and Christ:

Christ-hey angel 1 throw a marshmallow on that guy over there.
Angel 1-But Jesus I rather hang out with Moses,the Apostles and other saved folks in Heaven.
Christ-I said throw the marshmallow on him NOW!
Angel 1-Yes Sir.
Angel 2-This is boring I'm with angel 1 I rather hang out with the saved in Heaven.
Christ-We are going to sit here forever and watch these guys burn and suffer so SHUT UP and throw some marshmallows on some of these guys.
Angel 3-(whispers to angel 4)I heard Moses parted the big pool in Heaven just yesterday.
Angel 4-(whispers to angel 3)Oh man I wish I saw that. Man this is boring as hell(no pun intended)but were are stuck here with Jesus watching these poor slobs burn for good.
Jesus-I heard that. Now all of you SHUT UP and start throwing marshmallows on people.

[sheila]

man.......without UNDERSTANDING...isasthe beastthat perishes.  if abeast buttouch theHOLYMOUNTAIN..he shallperish.



  Under thelaw[writtenforthelawless] the beast beput to death due tothe wrath ofGod[ministry ofdeath]..Peters visionof thesheet

coming down from heaven with all kindsofbeast...the Holy spirit saying Rise[inunderstanding..to God's higher thoughts]..killandeat

andthen the sheet wentback up.  was in effect this...man as a beast lacks understanding[is invarious statesofignorance] and is still

expierencing 'wrath of God"cause of judgement without mercyunder the oldlawcovenant/ministry of death.

My people perish through lackof knowledge ofme.


When you know God is LOVE and the love of God is known to you through Jesus Christ andthe Father is revealed..you are infact

having your lower beastly ignorance slayed under the law...and realizing the fulfillmentof the LAW .Love isfulfilled in Godforgiving

ALLtresspasses[love keeps no record of the offense,forgives all believes all] through His son,Jesus Christ.


  Reaizing and beieving in Jesus Christ's revealingof the Father..aslove/forgiveness...does indeed move you from death[oldaw covenant]

untolife[grace/freegift,freely forgiven] unto the freegift of eternallife andreconciliation with your Father.


basically.....we are trulyignorant of God's LOVE FOR US..ANDIGNORANT OF GOD..whenjudgement withoutmercy[commandments

writtenonheartsof stone] is judged of the law. for thefulfillmentof law andlove..andthe making PERFECT..requires forgiveness/mercy

grace/love.Love is the perfect bond of union ofmanwith God.YOUMUST BE PERFECT...and PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR...

  FOR>>>>>>>>>

FEAR HATH TORMENT....


love trusts..puts faith..hopes in...believes inthe 'wordof God' spoken .


...the demonic evil spirit said untoJesus...Iknowwhoyou are..didyoucome to torment usbefore the appointedtime? thatis themind

of the beast[doctrineof devils/liars/dragon/leviathan etc] andthose whoworshipandtake on this mark/mind of this fals god...anddonot

believe the ;wordof Godcome inflesh ofgrace/love]TRUE WORDSOF GOD/MARRIAGE SUPPER/LOVE FEAST/PERFECT BOND OFUNION

cannotlive..because they remain under the mindset of old law ministry ofdeath...putting no

faith..inChrist..remaining bound in disobedience/unbelief. tares are bound for burning/torment...and manychurches are bound in

unbelief inwhat God andJesus have donefor ALL men through the cross. They continue to damnmen/judge law withoutmercy

and fear/tormented themselves..of the spectre of eternal torture for themselves or their familymembers.Having littlefaith..withthesame

measure ye measure for others..yerecieve. Abundant grace that exceeds all sin to the salvation of allmen..or'littlefaith' that only a

few can be saved with much difficulty.  Romans 12;3, Luke 6;38 


Rev 21;15-17..

the .golden rule[reed]measure........love your brother as yourself.....whatever amount of grace required[abundant]tosaveyourfellowman

from all his sin...we donotmeasurethe outer court..why?because we keep no record of the offence[trmpling

of grace of uncircumcized hearts/tresspasses.]


consider the change of arrangement/arainment inZechariah3;5..filthy clothes[lowly thoughts/unworthy words pertainingunto GOD]

whentheangel[messengerofthecovenant/angel proclaiming truth through spirit of truth] was with Joshua..andsatnwas resisting

thischange of arrangement/covenant/arainment.......satan rebuked and access unto these angels standingby.the angels are word

messengersfromGod/Jesus. satan also is a false/lying word messenger...the way of a serpent on a rock..goes like this........

satn desires old law covenat thatkills/condemns allmen..andasaccusor/temptor..doesnotdesire grace/forgiveness. Hetried to get

our saviour inthe wilderness to turn these stones into bread for men[toturn ourteeth unto GRAVE-EL]


we are not to eat anything TORn[torment]of a beast...and the beast false-prophet are thrownintoLOF..torment=demons .did

you come to torment us before the time.consider manwithlegion..hanging out among gravesofmen..with his flesh torn fromrocks

and the torment of his mind in that possesed condition.Jesus..the messenger of the covenant..rebukedthem..anddelivered that

tormented man. the demons are tormenented in the presence of God's  angels that speak the salvation/grace/forgiveness message

gospel unto men..they resist it..andmen who havethemarkofthe beastcannotlive duetounbelief/doctrinesofdevils/liers.



andthey shall recieve recompense of the torment they brought toman as theconstant accusor/temptor/murderer

and lying decieving robbers ofman'speace with God and one another. Men shall also be recompensed/restored...God named mangood

but a little evil has destroyedmuch good..and manshall be perfect..just as Job recieved double for all satan doneunto him..


manwill shortlyrecieve the BEST..WINE AND ROBE..that has been saved for last.YES,EVERY GOOD AND PERFECT PRESENT IS FROM

ABOVE.


CONSIDER THIS...when God delivered ISRAEL from slavery tothe princeofthis world/EGYPT/Pharoah.......the hail etcneverhurt

theIsraelite's...onlythe Prince of this world..who would not letHispeople gotoworshipHim. Now, I can appreciate the heavens

raining down righteousness andgreat hailstones of weighty refreshing waters of truth falling upon and crushing the refuges

of lies.     :2c:

[JamesH]

No offence Sheila but space bar is your friend. I have a hard time reading your posts when you string words together like that.

[sheila]

i push space bars...but is'nt hitting...i go back and manually insert spaces...takes forever. :sigh:

[JamesH]

i push space bars...but is'nt hitting...i go back and manually insert spaces...takes forever. :sigh:

Time for a new keyboard :winkgrin:

[marie glen]

i push space bars...but is'nt hitting...i go back and manually insert spaces...takes forever. :sigh:

Oh! that explains it! It..makes..me..wonder..what ..it..would..be.like..to push..periods..between..words..  A little tedious.. oops.. forgot..to..dot.. :doh:

-----------

"Smoke rising up for ever and ever.." James I never thought of that before.. talk about tedious!! if Jesus and the angels are stuck watching people in torment and agony forever and ever..

I've figured those who take the mark of the beast, whatever it turns out to be.. makes me think behavior modifying.. as they are tormented and cannot sleep, and doesn't it say elsewhere they want to die but cannot.. (and I think with location capability..?)

And the drinking the wind of the wrath of God - which I tend to think of in large part as consequences and results of man's own doings.. Ezekiel's fire.. man'd fire Rev 13:13, a verse overlooked as it's believed to pinpoint an individual, but I think it pinpoints an office.. totally different read then..

And yes, marked by the mark.. will suffer those fiery consequences mankind has unleashed.. (It finally dawned on me that the scenes in Rev when the skies seem to "split".. Ezekiels' fire events?) -- so those marked as obeisant to the beast (system) will experience the last great fire of mankind upon earth/war.

And "all in heaven and earth" I believe will look upon the devastation (and "bodies") and the smoke of it will rise up forever and ever in every heart and mind the full knowledge of the wRong way - as opposed to "the way" of "Life" - aka, with God - the memory of the devastation of the wRong way will rise up forever and ever - the lesson not be forgotten..

That is a great point about "in the presence of the lamb and angels" !!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[jugghead]

i push space bars...but is'nt hitting...i go back and manually insert spaces...takes forever. :sigh:

Hey sheila, I see the way things are being posted by you (whether on purpose or by mistake) as "having a purpose", for it takes more time to rightly divide the word, it takes patience, and what I have come to understand about anything in this world or the next ..... when we are in a hurry, that is when mistakes are made .....

I love the way your posts are coming up, for they always remind me to slow down in reading to understand what is trying to be conveyed by the writer.

Blessings sister

[sheila]

 :ty:I liked what you saw in it.

[rosered]

Edifying posts!!!    :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

What I couldn't figure out is in verse 10 it says those who worship the beast will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and Christ(the Lamb)if they are going to be tormented forever as verse 11 says how can they be in the presence of the angels and Christ if they are forever tormented?

  :thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:  Amen !

[MusicLover123]

What I couldn't figure out is in verse 10 it says those who worship the beast will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and Christ(the Lamb)if they are going to be tormented forever as verse 11 says how can they be in the presence of the angels and Christ if they are forever tormented?

Well, there are 2 conclusions(or more?) that come from this.

1. God trulely does take pleasure in the pain of the lost. So much in fact, that he does not look away. Instead, He brings not only His Son and Angels to watch and get in on the action. God also gets up close and personal to remind you how much of a bad boy you have been, and to make you realize that no hope lies within reach.

2. Christ is taking the measures to test their purity and correct them. As I have read on older posts on here, someone(WhiteWings?) mentioned how to torment etymologically means to test for purity. Like for silver and gold. Sometimes a bit of pain is required to get the best out of things.

I agree with Rosered though, good posts!  :thumbsup: :angelharp:

Blessings  :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

What I couldn't figure out is in verse 10 it says those who worship the beast will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and Christ(the Lamb)if they are going to be tormented forever as verse 11 says how can they be in the presence of the angels and Christ if they are forever tormented?

Well, there are 2 conclusions(or more?) that come from this.

1. God trulely does take pleasure in the pain of the lost. So much in fact, that he does not look away. Instead, He brings not only His Son and Angels to watch and get in on the action. God also gets up close and personal to remind you how much of a bad boy you have been, and to make you realize that no hope lies within reach.

2. Christ is taking the measures to test their purity and correct them. As I have read on older posts on here, someone(WhiteWings?) mentioned how to torment etymologically means to test for purity. Like for silver and gold. Sometimes a bit of pain is required to get the best out of things.

I agree with Rosered though, good posts!  :thumbsup: :angelharp:

Blessings  :HeartThrob:

That is one thing that Sherry (2knowHim) always tried to emphasize when she was with us, that it has to do with "touchstone" ..... a testing of purity

Her spirit still lives in me as well as, I know her spirit also continues to live in others here

And it is "His Love" ... "His Wisdom" in us that is always being tested for purity, for to have "a love of wisdom" is to seek after "What He has" rather than seeking after "the wisdom of love" which is "Who He is"

We need to seek after "Who He is" first (Love) before He freely gives "What He has" (Wisdom) and by it we also come to the knowledge of the truth that Wisdom is also "Who He is" .... that God is "a Wise Father" and that He is also "a Loving Son"

We seek the Son to see the Father and see that they are one in the same, "for if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father".

[rosered]

  Amen   :thumbsup:   :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :banana:      sure is the  Touchstone the builders rejected   , LOVE  will be the measure all things will be   tested by and purified with   :HeartThrob:   Rev 3

17You say, 'I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked.

18I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

19Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent....


Acts 4 ...10then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel:

It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.'




12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."...

Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?

Mark 9:12
He replied, "Elijah does indeed come first, and he restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected?       

  :dsunny:

[darryl]

These verses:

Revelation 14:9-11-9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

What I couldn't figure out is in verse 10 it says those who worship the beast will be tormented in the presence of the holy angels and Christ(the Lamb)if they are going to be tormented forever as verse 11 says how can they be in the presence of the angels and Christ if they are forever tormented? Then it dawned on me as a new uni that this torment is only temporary. If it's forever then the ECTer has a problem and here is the problem:

If the torment is eternal/everlasting/forever then the ECTer will have to explain why Christ and the angels are there for good watching this torment? If they believe in everlasting torment then it means that the torment is going to be observed by Christ and the angels for good.

I don't see Christ and the angels just sitting there watching these people suffer forever. Are you telling me that they have nothing better to do than to watch people suffer for all eternity/time and nothing else? I can just hear the convo between the angels and Christ:

Christ-hey angel 1 throw a marshmallow on that guy over there.
Angel 1-But Jesus I rather hang out with Moses,the Apostles and other saved folks in Heaven.
Christ-I said throw the marshmallow on him NOW!
Angel 1-Yes Sir.
Angel 2-This is boring I'm with angel 1 I rather hang out with the saved in Heaven.
Christ-We are going to sit here forever and watch these guys burn and suffer so SHUT UP and throw some marshmallows on some of these guys.
Angel 3-(whispers to angel 4)I heard Moses parted the big pool in Heaven just yesterday.
Angel 4-(whispers to angel 3)Oh man I wish I saw that. Man this is boring as hell(no pun intended)but were are stuck here with Jesus watching these poor slobs burn for good.
Jesus-I heard that. Now all of you SHUT UP and start throwing marshmallows on people.

yes, it's utterly absurd to think Jesus will be personally present throughout all eternity as these ones are being tormented. This is yet another proof that this verse does not teach eternal punishment.

[MusicLover123]

"Love never fails," I think, is the greatest attribute that God has. The three greatest things we can do is to Hope, have Faith, and Love. But, Faith without Love is Untrustworthy, Hope without Love is Melancholy, and those without Love is to be without Life.

Love is our foundation. It never fails, but only those who work from it will be satisfied.

Blessings  :dsunny:

ML

[jugghead]

Since God is Love

and

God is the Father

When His Son says, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" is ultimately understood as ....

"If you have seen Me, you have seen Love"

        / :dsunny: \
     :HeartThrob:             :HeartThrob:

when all is said and done, Love will be both hands of the Son