How Would You Approach This Verse

[JamesH]

Matthew 6:15-But if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So how would you approach this verse if someone dies not forgiving anyone's trespasses since the Father won't forgive your trespasses if you don't forgive others?

[WhiteWings]

I think it means exactly what it says.
The keyword is 'exactly'. Don't add to what it says.

For me the verse means if someone doesn't forgive sins, God won't forgive his/her sins.
That's it. It doesn't  say: So they will be in hell for all eternity.
God will give some punishment, that's what the verse states. But the type, severity and duration is not mentioned in that verse.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:corrective measures may fall onyou..like being put in prison til you pay back every penny...trouble in your life.. etc

examining ourselves[heart] daily to make sure we are not holding something against another in resentment/unforgiveness.

[eaglesway]

The scripture also says every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ if Lord...(Phil 2)

Does anyone really think that anyone will out last God?

"And u will not be released until you have paid the last penny"

And what is the last penny? The last illusion that you have any righteousness in you that would allow you space to judge another, to be bitter, to not forgive.

Will any knee bow without first having realized that Jesus forgave all, therefore so must I?

"All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation"

And what is this message?

"And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." Col 1

Religionists try to get us to assume that death is the last destination for every unbeliever, but the scripture tells us all will stand before Him, and every adversary will be subjected, and all will be gathered into one in Christ, and God will be all in all(Phil2, Eph 1, 1 Cor 15)

Will any confess His Lordship without having been washed in the fountain of the water and the blood?
(Having a new and living way into the holy of holies m having our bodies washed in pure wter and our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience.)

Remember the death angel passed over when the blood was applied to the doorpost, but no one got out of Egypt without passing thru the Red Sea- where ALL  the horse and rider were cast into the sea (bitterness, pride, lust, greed, ambition, etc)

Every inner tower must fall before Him, every thought taken captive by love.

Am I more righteous than He that I can withhold that which He freely gave at the cost of much suffering?

Nowhere does it say that anyone will outlast God, it simply says that as long as you refuse to forgive(remit, release the burden) of another's sins against you, the burden of your own sins will not be remitted.

Why? Because if you do not forgive,your knee is as yet unbowed and Jesus is not yet Lord in your life.

How will Jesus be Lord over all as long as one soul lies in torment over unrepented sins and unforgiven debts? And why, should that soul repent and forgive, would he or she not be forgiven at that time?

It is not about who gets excluded, it is about when will all be included...

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in turn(in order): Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."c Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. 1 Cor 15

For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21thath the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. Ro 8

[rosered]

Great thoughts all.
  I AGREE  :iagree:  NO one will ever  escape going though Jesus  Christ   first   ,He is the only way to the Father   
God set that a secure and sure  Word of truth . as the word judges every little thing .

I do believe many because of the carnal mind , cannot see past the moment and present  tense  of this life. temporary as it is . 
and it is darkness and  ignorance  of GOD our heavenly Father   like veil or covering over  humanity .

Only GOD IS GOOD  , Jesus never took anything away from His  Father  , but  always glorified Him  and honored Him continually
and in turn the greatest   ''union of Love   expressed ''  a perfect and complete  bond was  the Father giving everything to the Son ..

The only way to , as far as helping us to understand  this ,is to start from the   simple beginning,  Genesis  and build  upon that .
 
I can see that God made both  good and evil  and purposed them in His Word .

  Sin and error come though disobedience  in ignorance    , mankind  would learn though the experiences wandering  the earth  till the end of days

The   man /Cain was not  saved till the end of his days  ,if you noticed what his offering was to God , it never ever mentions him dying in the Bible /Word , the mark on Cain was  if anyone kills him   they would have the Vengeance of God upon them 7 times  ..



You will be a restless wanderer on the earth" (Genesis 4:11-12).

Cain lamented, "My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me" (Genesis 4:13-14).

God  says  "No if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him" (Genesis 4:15-16).

These are the things  that God does as His judgments are in the earth    ,when Cain killed the breath of life /Abel in  him  , they come out of  the womb  in the same conception [like twins , two natures ]

  I know   many have trouble with how some think , many people do not like me because of how I think, but it is to the point now ,where  it is all in Gods hands ,,  HE ONLY  is the Righteous Judge .

We  are to count it all as joy  :dsunny:

[Patinak]

Matthew 6:15-But if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So how would you approach this verse if someone dies not forgiving anyone's trespasses since the Father won't forgive your trespasses if you don't forgive others?

I think it means exactly what it says.
The keyword is 'exactly'. Don't add to what it says.

For me the verse means if someone doesn't forgive sins, God won't forgive his/her sins.
That's it. It doesn't  say: So they will be in hell for all eternity.
God will give some punishment, that's what the verse states. But the type, severity and duration is not mentioned in that verse.

I agree with WhiteWings, except that the verse does not state that God will give some punishment.  You reap what you sow... the 'golden rule'.  I think Jesus was talking about temporal things in his "sermon on the mount". 

I just don't see eternity in this.

I would also add that I think when Jesus talks about "dying in your sins", he is talking to a group of Jews who are destined to die in the destruction of Jerusalem and their "sins" are their unbelief of Him. (sorry, my preterist leanings coming out)
[Jhn 8:24 CSB] 24 "Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."
...not, "You will die and burn in Hell for eternity because of your sins"

Pat

[rosered]

Matthew 6:15-But if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So how would you approach this verse if someone dies not forgiving anyone's trespasses since the Father won't forgive your trespasses if you don't forgive others?

James 2 A Warning against Favoritism

8 Indeed, if you fulfill the royal law prescribed in the Scripture, Love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well.
...9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10Whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 

[sheila]

good thread...specially liked you bringing out favouritism/unjust scales..bribes..etc. Father has worked somethings in my life

to correct my attitude/mindset on certain matters.I,too,believe this is only in this temporal realm...as death is the wages of sin.

[WhiteWings]

I agree with WhiteWings, except that the verse does not state that God will give some punishment.  You reap what you sow... the 'golden rule'.  I think Jesus was talking about temporal things in his "sermon on the mount". 

Unforgiven sins have consequences. Aren't those consequences called punishment/correction?

[eaglesway]

I think that is a fair assumption. it's not like the scriptures dont speak of correction and punishment by God towards rebellious children.


Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them. Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?...

Against you, you only, have I sinned, and I have done this evil in your eyes. So you are justified when you sentence me. You are blameless when you judge.

[marie glen]

Amen! To all of the above (except I have a hard time believing there's anyone who dislikes Rosie! :mshock: )

Especially Eaglesway's post, especially:

Nowhere does it say that anyone will outlast God, it simply says that as long as you refuse to forgive(remit, release the burden) of another's sins against you, the burden of your own sins will not be remitted.

I also think there will be some varying amounts of discipline on judgment 'day', but not like ET / ECT envisions it! Like those not yet saved - not yet chosen/designated, not yet called/summoned, etc, but "each one in their own order". Not as if they awaken via the Lord's voice then are tossed into a burning lake or cauldron, well actually the thought is resurrected from Hell to be thrown into Hell?)

But those notorious translators went running with the verses.. and now seems habitual for many to do so, and of course we ourselves have done so before also..

But to die in one's sins in all likelihood (?) simply means they shall rise still in their sins.. I have to think that alone, exposed to the radiant pristine holy presence of the Father, has got to be torment and agony.. Surely not hard to imagine some weeping and even gnashing of teeth occurring.. If the 'day' lasts long enough, some may cringe back or cling to the outer darkness. (I did say "imagine" :gsmile: it being of course speculation, although I do think to myself I've spied confirmations in his word and guidance). 'Hell' being mistranslation (and imagination!) that should better read death or the grave - which is cast to the 2nd death/lof.. And it's been assumed the lof follows 'day' of judgment.. but do we know if that is strictly true? Have we who believe now, been through the lake (crucible?) of fire? As we know, He baptizes with the Spirit and with fire.. Which brings me to a new question I haven't thought much about before.. will there be the washing via the Word during Judgment 'Day'.. I think Judgment Day will be approx. 500 years- I'm a little preterist, but also futurist (is that the right word?  :laughing7: I'm thinking maybe not.)

The shadow of the timing/500 years (imo) being in the days between the Fall holy days of Lev. 23 (Trumpets, DOA, Tabernacles) - DOA/rising still in their sins? DOA for the DOA?

[GodIsLove]

I actually really like the verses in the Bible that stress that we need to forgive others, even to the point that we won't be forgiven.  I'd say the majority of the world, Christians and atheists and other religions alike, all struggle with forgiveness. There's Christians who say we should forgive but not forget, yet:

Love keeps no record of wrongs

And:

"I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more" (Jeremiah 31:34).

And in Isaiah it talks of blotting out sins.

I was just trying to tactfully remind my parents of these verses because they hold grudges against certain family members. I complied a bunch of verses including this one yesterday.  Timely post for me.  I have not showed the verses to them though, because I struggle with the line between trying to help and being seen as judging or meddling.

And yes, like others posted, there's no mention of forever or even hell in this.  And I take it to mean you can't fully be one with the spirit/Jesus until you forgive like he does, freely to all without grudge holding. Lack of forgiveness hurts your ability to be close to god. To not forgive someone else means you are self righteous and feel that you are better than someone else, their sin is worse than yours and not worth of mercy or forgiveness. You are feeling self pity and selfishness, looking inward at your own hurt and not seeing that we are all hurt in some way and all need mercy and love and God.

[rosered]

I actually really like the verses in the Bible that stress that we need to forgive others, even to the point that we won't be forgiven.  I'd say the majority of the world, Christians and atheists and other religions alike, all struggle with forgiveness. There's Christians who say we should forgive but not forget, yet:

Love keeps no record of wrongs

And:

"I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more" (Jeremiah 31:34).

And in Isaiah it talks of blotting out sins.

I was just trying to tactfully remind my parents of these verses because they hold grudges against certain family members. I complied a bunch of verses including this one yesterday.  Timely post for me.  I have not showed the verses to them though, because I struggle with the line between trying to help and being seen as judging or meddling.

And yes, like others posted, there's no mention of forever or even hell in this.  And I take it to mean you can't fully be one with the spirit/Jesus until you forgive like he does, freely to all without grudge holding. Lack of forgiveness hurts your ability to be close to god. To not forgive someone else means you are self righteous and feel that you are better than someone else, their sin is worse than yours and not worth of mercy or forgiveness. You are feeling self pity and selfishness, looking inward at your own hurt and not seeing that we are all hurt in some way and all need mercy and love and God.

  Amen  ,

  LOVELY post GODISLOVE ...
  Forgiven of much loves much ...

   when you repect persons or even hold grudges   it make room for the bitter root to grow ..

The  bitter root  that defiles the whole body , like  poison

Jesus speaks about drinking anything   deadly like poison will not harm you if you belong to Him     and I love that!!

   Mark  16 The Great Commission
...17And these signs will accompany those who believe:

In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

18they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison,

it will not harm them;

they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well."

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God....

  Not only that but if you keep on praying and   reaching out to those that are sin sick  they will be healed  :HeartThrob:,,,

  Love covers a multitude of sin /errors  1 Peter 4 Living for God's Glory
...7The end of all things is near.
Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so you can pray.

8Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

9Show hospitality to one another without complaining....

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all transgressions.

LOVE  that there is no record of Wrong /error     when   Jesus becomes our Life    and  Love is our covering ... HID in Him

:HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[jabcat]

I'd say the majority of the world...all struggle with forgiveness.

Love keeps no record of wrongs...

"I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more" (Jeremiah 31:34).

Timely post for me. To not forgive someone else means you are self righteous and feel that you are better than someone else, their sin is worse than yours and not worth of mercy or forgiveness. You are feeling self pity and selfishness, looking inward at your own hurt and not seeing that we are all hurt in some way and all need mercy and love and God.

:first:

[Patinak]

I agree with WhiteWings, except that the verse does not state that God will give some punishment.  You reap what you sow... the 'golden rule'.  I think Jesus was talking about temporal things in his "sermon on the mount". 

Unforgiven sins have consequences. Aren't those consequences called punishment/correction?

Don't misunderstand me.  I know that there are consequences for all sin. 
In his opening post, it seemed to me that JamesH was concerned about the fate of a person dying before getting the chance to forgive someone. (Maybe this was a personal concern, as it was for me at one time)
He gave a verse that I'm sure is used to support eternal torment.

Your response was:
"I think it means exactly what it says.
The keyword is 'exactly'. Don't add to what it says."

And then you added:
"God will give some punishment, that's what the verse states."

The verse does not state that. :sigh: That was my disagreement.  As you said "Don't add to what it says"

Pat

[JamesH]

I'd like to add something? If let's say God does punish you if you die with no forgiveness for anyone that has wronged you. If he does that and ECT is true wouldn't that make God a hypocrite for punishing people that don't forgive forever and then turn around and punish those that die in their unbelief or other sins that wronged God(basically God not forgiving that person for their unbelief or other sins)forever?

[WhiteWings]

Your response was:
"I think it means exactly what it says.
The keyword is 'exactly'. Don't add to what it says."

And then you added:
"God will give some punishment, that's what the verse states."

The verse does not state that. :sigh: That was my disagreement.  As you said "Don't add to what it says"

I see what you mean. You are (likely) right from a Western view.
But the way I understand the Hebrew thought things are a little different.

I'll try to explain using this verse:
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Surely nobody will assume God will start forgetting things on His old age.
Forget it Hebrew has two components. The memory itself, and the consequences tied to that memory.
So God will remember forever but He won't keep holding your sins against you.

Likewise with the verse in the OP.
Forgive isn't only about a thought God has in His head, but also about the activity (correction) that's tied to that thought.

[Patinak]

I'd like to add something? If let's say God does punish you if you die with no forgiveness for anyone that has wronged you. If he does that and ECT is true wouldn't that make God a hypocrite for punishing people that don't forgive forever and then turn around and punish those that die in their unbelief or other sins that wronged God(basically God not forgiving that person for their unbelief or other sins)forever?

Hello James,
I hesitate to use God and hypocrite in the same sentence, but your scenario makes sense to me!
Pat

[bbyrd009]

I think it means exactly what it says.
The keyword is 'exactly'. Don't add to what it says.

For me the verse means if someone doesn't forgive sins, God won't forgive his/her sins.
That's it. It doesn't  say: So they will be in hell for all eternity.
God will give some punishment, that's what the verse states. But the type, severity and duration is not mentioned in that verse.

been reflecting upon this in another forum for a week or so...the very worst punishment might be to be forgiven of something that one does not rebound (repent) of? Which is not necessarily intuitive, i guess, even if we can witness it playing out IRL. (iow just forgive someone who is unrebounded, from an obvious--to everyone else--sin, and see what happens)

"But the type, severity and duration is not mentioned in that verse."

possibly bc it is self-inflicted, iow, and contained in "if you do not forgive..."

[bbyrd009]

Matthew 6:15-But if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So how would you approach this verse if someone dies not forgiving anyone's trespasses since the Father won't forgive your trespasses if you don't forgive others?

I think it means exactly what it says.
The keyword is 'exactly'. Don't add to what it says.

For me the verse means if someone doesn't forgive sins, God won't forgive his/her sins.
That's it. It doesn't  say: So they will be in hell for all eternity.
God will give some punishment, that's what the verse states. But the type, severity and duration is not mentioned in that verse.

I agree with WhiteWings, except that the verse does not state that God will give some punishment.  You reap what you sow... the 'golden rule'.  I think Jesus was talking about temporal things in his "sermon on the mount". 

there it is, ya.

"I just don't see eternity in this."

ah yes, the vastly mistranslated "eternity" that we understand to mean "forever" lol
not what the Hebrews meant at all, i guess

[CHB]

I would also add that I think when Jesus talks about "dying in your sins", he is talking to a group of Jews who are destined to die in the destruction of Jerusalem and their "sins" are their unbelief of Him. (sorry, my preterist leanings coming out)
[Jhn 8:24 CSB] 24 "Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."
...not, "You will die and burn in Hell for eternity because of your sins"

Pat

The way I understand John 8:24 is. Jesus hadn't died at that time as the Savior of the world and they did die in their sins and will stay dead in their sins until Christ returns and every knee will bow. Because they didn't believe in Him they died in their sins and weren't forgiven at that time. I think this also applies to John 11:26.

CHB



 

[MHz]

Matthew 6:15-But if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So how would you approach this verse if someone dies not forgiving anyone's trespasses since the Father won't forgive your trespasses if you don't forgive others?

I believe the limit is 70 times 7 or something like that. The verse probably is more for the verse below that for the sinner in 1 Cor:5 as believers are told to have nothing to do with them based on if you can't share a meal with them the relationship is 'distant' at best. It stills allows you to work beside them with no added tension.

M't:5:23:
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar,
and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
M't:5:24:
Leave there thy gift before the altar,
and go thy way;
first be reconciled to thy brother,
and then come and offer thy gift.

If this doesn't work there are two other option, get a 3rd party involved as a 'ref' and if that doesn't solve it them it is a matter for the Elders of the Congregation to rule on.